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HODINKEE Podcasts
The Business of Watches [019] Greubel Forsey CEO Michel Nydegger
01:10:34
The CEO of Greubel Forsey discusses what's next for the ultra-high-end watchmaker after the departure of one of its founders from the board.
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the business of Watches, the Hotiki podcast where horology meets high finance. And we go behind the scenes of the watch industry to find the economic drivers making things tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. This week we're in la Chaux de fond to talk to the CEO of one of the most revered names in independent watchmaking, Grubel Forsey. Michel Nidegger is one of the youngest CEOs in the business and he's in charge at a time of significant change for the brand. One of the founders, Steven Forsey, a man Nidegger worked with closely for years, has left the board and Forsey has said on social media that he was pushed out. We asked Nidegger about what's going on and how the brand plans to keep making some of the most unique, complicated and highly finished watches in the industry with mind blowing prices to match. But first, we're joined by a special guest, someone who knows Grubel Forsey pretty well and is now running a new auction house that aims to cut independent watchmakers and brands in on the proceeds when one of their watches comes to auction. Arthur Toucheau is the co founder of Marteau Co. And a former Hodinkee editor.
- [01:29]
B
Arthur Tuchel, the co founder of Marteau Co. And a former Hodinkee editor here in Geneva. Welcome to the business of watches.
- [01:39]
C
Good morning, Andy. Thank you for having me.
- [01:41]
B
Excellent. So let's talk about your auction house, which you started with a partner, I guess fairly recently. Last year we wrote about it in hodinkee. Marteau Company. This is an auction house that does things a little bit different, differently. Tell us what the concept is and what Marteau is doing to sort of, you know, stand out and do things differently.
- [02:06]
C
So Marteau Co. Is a new auction house based in Geneva that I launched with a friend who also has great experience in the watch world. And as you said, we do things a little bit differently in that we guarantee a commission for watchmakers. So we make sure that the value that they've created is recognized. Recognized by including them in the result of the sale. You can think of it as a royalty.
- [02:36]
D
Right.
- [02:36]
B
And how does that work? I mean, what percentage? And does this only work for certain brands or certain watchmakers? How do you determine and where does the money come from for that sort of payment or percentage that goes to the watchmaker?
- [02:54]
C
So currently we're focusing on independent watchmaking, artisanal watchmaking. And the reason for that is that over the past few years, many have described them as artists and we agree with that description, but we think that if you consider them to be artists, then you have to give them the same protection that other artists receive in their industries. And so we have highly curated or highly curated auctions with between 25 and 30 pieces, which is enough to create an event and an exciting auction for everyone, but is also small enough that collectors can focus on every single piece in the way that we believe they should be able to, because we really respect the product and want to make sure that we can present it in the best way possible. So what we do is that we guarantee that 3% of the hammer price goes back to the watchmaker whose watches we sell on our platform. And that 3% comes from the buyer's premium, which is a reduced premium of 20%, which is lower than what the more established auction houses have. So it's not a commission on top of the price premium. It's really our decision to redistribute some of the premium that we receive back to the watchmaker.
- [04:20]
B
Right. And so, yeah, I mean, this is a concept that sort of exists in the art world in some ways. You know, artists who are struggling artists and sell their paintings or sculptures or pieces of art early on in their careers. And then, you know, it's, in fact the law in some jurisdictions that they have a right to a percentage of those sales. And this is sort of bringing that concept to watchmaking, treating these objects as pieces of art or similar in that space. And so talk about, you know, you've had your first auction, you did it last year. Talk about, you know, the, you know, the kind of pieces that you sold and how you did. And then you've got another one coming up. It's all online, but in March this month.
- [05:10]
C
Yeah. So the first auction was called the First Strike and took place in October. We had 25 pieces. And the goal for the first auction, in addition to introducing ourselves and this concept, was to try to curate a catalog that represented the diversity of independent watchmaking. Because I truly believe that you can collect only independent watchmaking and have a rich and interesting collection. And so we had pieces from watchmakers that were active in the 90s and that participated in pioneering that movement and more. We had watchmakers who had established their brand a little bit later and have been around for 20 years. So watchmakers like Urwerk and De Bethune and MB&F. And what we didn't have, but we are introducing in the second sale, which is called the Echo, is pieces from the next generation of talented watchmakers, independent watchmakers. So we have pieces from Berneron, from Jovin Bernard, from Cylindrical, from Remy Maillard, a crayon from Simon Bret. And so this time, we're really able to Showcase the past 30 years of independent watchmaking and also where it's going. So that's been really fun to be able to curate a catalog that way.
- [06:51]
B
Definitely. Definitely. And how are you finding in terms of acquiring pieces or consignments and having people participate in the auction, how much is that percentage that's going to the watchmaker? Is that a motivator, do you think, for people to can sign and also to participate as buyers in the process?
- [07:18]
C
Yeah. So truly, we didn't really know how our concept would be received, so it was a big question mark and a bit of a risk, which is what you do when you're an entrepreneur and when you create something new. But what we found is that it really resonated with collectors. I think a lot of collectors who are drawn to independent watchmaking are drawn to the story of these characters and want to support these characters. And I think that they recognize that that's what we're trying to do in our own little way. And in some ways, we're also the young little guy, you know, the young, little independent. The young auction house, I should say. And so it's exciting to them to see something that's new and different, something that resonates with them. And we've been overwhelmed with the support that we received. What we've been surprised with, I would say, is that we've also met plenty of collectors who are just not active on the auction front because for various reasons, they just didn't agree with the commission structure. And I think our model is something that they find more appropriate, something that they want to test out.
- [08:53]
B
Definitely. Well, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I think about specific models. I mean, you sold some Daniel Roth pieces. Some vintage pieces were consigned in the previous auction. Now, Dan, you know, when we talk about independence and we think about this concept, obviously the Daniel Roth brand is under lvmh. Now, how did that work in terms of that percentage going to the watchmaker, in that case?
- [09:22]
C
Yeah, that's a great question, as a question we ask ourselves every single time that we're presented with a watch from a new independent watchmaker that we haven't had yet. And we treat it case by case. So in the case of the Daniel Roth, we contacted Daniel, his wife Nicole. We introduced ourselves, we introduced our concept, we told them about the guaranteed commission. They couldn't believe It. And then we also ensured that lvmh, La Fabrique du Temps, more specifically, were aware that we had some of Daniel's early pieces that he had made in the 90s and that our intention was to give the 3% to him, but that we wanted to make sure that it wasn't crossing any kind of legal boundary. So every single time we have these conversations ahead of the auction, every watchmaker is aware that one of their pieces is in the sale. And then a conversation begins around gathering information about the piece. We've had a lot of prototypes, a lot of number ones, a lot of pieces that I'd say the literature around the piece is relatively thin. And so going back to the watchmaker is. There's no better way than going back to the source in those situations. And then we also try to find ways of working together to ensure a good result, making sure that their clients are aware that, you know, when we have previews or when we're showing the pieces. So for example, this week we are presenting the catalog, all of the pieces in the sale at the MAD Gallery in Geneva, thanks to the kind invitation of Max Bucer and his team. And so even though we are an online auction house and where the transactions take place online, most of it, I would say, is face to face with the watchmakers, with the collectors. And it's important to do that because I recognize that it's also part of the fun of collecting to, you know, be connected to that community and.
- [11:42]
B
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, it's definitely a more intimate and personal sort of experience. I think with this kind of auction structure, one specific thing, you have an audemars Piguet code 1159 Star Wheel. So how's that going to work?
- [12:00]
C
Well, they're independent, aren't they?
- [12:01]
B
They are independent. They are independent and at times have really operated like an independent watchmaker. Obviously these days they're making 50,000 plus watches per year. Big player in the industry. Are they going to be in line for that 3%?
- [12:22]
C
Are they all right? Yeah, no, they're all guaranteed the 3%. And then obviously it's up to them what they want to do with it. I'm not going to force them to take it. We don't ask for anything in exchange. It's just a promise that we're making and a promise that we'll stand by. We announced not too long ago a partnership with the hci. And one of the reasons for this partnership is that we realized that it would be possible that watchmakers would not claim the 3% or would say that, you know, maybe they don't, or they think that someone else might need it more than they do. So we thought, well, what do we do in that case? Do we just sit on 3% put in our pockets? I say no, definitely not. We. We want to stand by our promise. So we are going to, you know, redistribute those 3%.
- [13:13]
B
Right.
- [13:14]
C
And one way we're doing that is with the hei, because we think they're a great partner. Having been supporting independent watchmakers since 1985, most of the watchmakers in our catalog have, at one point or another been a member of the academy, and they are still very active, have lots of programs and initiatives to support young independent watchmakers. And so we thought that supporting them in a way is supporting the independent watchmaking industry, which is what we want to do. And there'll be more initiatives like that announced throughout the year.
- [13:49]
D
Yeah, AP.
- [13:50]
C
AP is indie, you know, AP's independent. But I think it's important that, you know, we chose to include a Star Wheel. It's an exciting piece. It's one that, you know, collectors
- [14:04]
D
love
- [14:04]
C
because of its connection to the brand's heritage pieces. I don't think that we would include 16202 in steel. I honestly don't think that we would sell it for more than going market price, which is very stable. Yeah, we want to focus on. Well, we want to keep focus on pieces that are rare, that are different and stand out and are exciting.
- [14:34]
B
I think it's certainly a fair statement that the Star Wheel embodies that spirit of independent watchmaking for sure way.
- [14:43]
C
I think the hope is that obviously, when you focus specifically on this niche of independent watchmakers, you're not speaking to every collector in the world because some have a focus on the bigger brands. And so in a way, it's an invitation for those collectors who are currently, you know, only AP or Oni Patek or only Rolex or, you know, a combination of the three to, you know, have a look at the catalog because they recognize something that they like and maybe learn a thing or two about watchmakers that just were not on their radar. So in a way, I think it will also help bring attention to the smaller independent watchmakers and certainly can't hurt.
- [15:28]
B
Absolutely. So this week on the show, we're talking to Michelle Nidegger, who is the CEO of Grubel Forsey. I don't believe you've had any Grubel pieces yet, but Tak, you know, you've been around the Watch world for a long time written books on certain brands and watchmakers. What does Grube of Forsee as an independent watchmaker brand mean for you?
- [15:52]
C
Well, they mean a great deal, actually, because when I was a young watch journalist and I didn't know many people in this world, they were among the first, Robert and Stephen, to open their doors to show me inside of the manufacturer and explain how a watch was made from A to Z. They always invited me to new releases, so I learned a lot through them. And I've been involved in a couple of projects in the past, including Naissance du Monde, where I got to really follow the development of a piece over a number of years. That's what I appreciate more with Crebelle Forsey is the fact that they take their time in making the very best handcrafted pieces. And so, yeah, they mean a great deal to me, as do many other independent watchmakers. The reason why we're focusing on independent watchmaking is that it's because it's the watchmakers that we love and that we respect and that we also want to, you know, represent and keep working with.
- [17:04]
B
Absolutely. And so tell the listeners, you know, when the auction takes place and where they can. Where they can find out more information.
- [17:13]
C
The Echo takes place between March 12th to March 19th with a preview held this week on March 6th and 7th in Geneva. And it features 30 pieces from the very best independent watchmakers, names that people will sure recognize. And the catalog goes live on March 5, a week before the sale.
- [17:38]
B
Excellent. Arthur Touchot, co founder of Marteau and Company. Thank you for joining us.
- [17:45]
C
Thank you so much, Andy.
- [17:53]
B
Okay, we are in La Chaux de Fonds with the chief executive officer of Grubel Forsey, Michel Neidegger. Welcome. Thank you for joining the podcast.
- [18:05]
D
Thank you very much for having me.
- [18:06]
B
So we are in sort of mid February. We've had the start to the year Grube Forsey recently, or to end 2025, you won a GPHG. You've been in this role. Talk about how long you've been in this role as CE and how 2025 was, and then we'll talk about where we are and where we are going with this brand.
- [18:32]
D
Okay, that's very broad. Okay, let's go. We're going to talk about everything. So how long have I been in this role? I started officially August 2024, and officially it's been a bit longer than that, but I guess we can say a year and a half. And 2024 was a nice challenge to figure Everything out there was no proper handover. So luckily, I've been with Bull4C officially for 10 years and again unofficially for longer than that. So 2024 was about figuring things out, and then 2025 was about building, I guess, with a team. And it was, for me personally, I guess it was a very rewarding year because I do actually get to learn something new every day, which I think is quite rare. And it's something that matters a lot to me. Reason for that is that we're an independent brand, so whatever decisions we take, we see the conse of those decisions right away. So you just kind of move along and there's always something new to do. And I think it's a good sign because we're not in a place where we just keep doing the same thing. We try to go further. So 2025 was one of the most exciting years of my life, I'm happy to say.
- [19:47]
B
And let's talk about the history of Grubel Forsey, one of the sort of preeminent names in independent Swiss watchmaking. Certainly a pioneer in the whole idea of an independent SW watch brand. What's the story of Grubel Forsey? I mean, when you're giving the elevator pitch or just a quick summary of what the brand is and what it does and what role and position it plays in the Swiss watch industry?
- [20:14]
D
So what was important for Robert and Stephen, generally speaking, was to add something of significance to the history of watchmaking. And that did start with a double tourbillon, 30 degrees, which was basically a. A timepiece, which then defined a brand. So they didn't say, hey, we want such and such a brand. We wanted to work in this price range. It was about that first timepiece with that first invention, and that kind of set the stage for how everything would turn out to be. So, in terms of hand finishing, the quality had to be something people had never seen before in the past. And then for the technical elements, especially the tourbillon, it was to actually render it useful and to improve chronometric performance. And still to this day, almost all of our inventions are based around the tourbillon or different types of tourbillon. And the point is always to have better performance, which is something that not everyone chooses to focus on because it's really hard to do. And not a lot of people still care about that because we all have the time on our phones. But it was a very purist approach. And then throughout the years, I guess the common denominator between what I feel is a wide spectrum of different projects and different challenges to overcome is that it has. Has to be in some way or form significant. So today, when we have a new project that we want to work on, we ask ourselves the question, why does this deserve to exist? So it's not about making watches just for the sake of making watches and selling them. So there's always something, a challenge to overcome, a problem to solve. And so throughout the. I think it's 34 calibers as of now that were developed in the past 20 years. That was, in my opinion, the common denominator.
- [22:00]
B
Interesting. And yeah, talk more about a tourbillon and what a tourbillon is. I mean, some people it's interesting as a complication. I mean, some people don't think it's a complication. They don't call it a complication. You know what a tourbillon does and why? That double tourbillon was the sort of first sort of product or development that the duo of Grubel and Forsey did. And this is back in. What is it, 2004.
- [22:29]
D
So they started working on it in 1999 or even before that. So basically there was before Gribbleforce existed as a brand. So Robert doesn't call us a brand. It's more of an adventure. And I would agree with him. There was a sister company which we said, which was Completime. And the point was to build movements mechanisms for other brands. So that's how the Double Trobillon initially started. So Robert and Steven, they were working at Renaud Papis APRP today. And so they saw a lot of stuff, right? And they saw a lot of problems with the things that came. Came across their workbench. And they figured they would tackle the tourbillon as a sort of first project where the idea was to render it useful in a wristwatch. So before it was made for pocket watches. And there was never development dedicated to the wristwatch which would improve performance. So by having. So the double tourbillon basically is one tourbillon inside another. So you have an outer cage rotating in four minutes, and inside that you have an inner cage rotating in one minute minute. And then the big innovation being that the escapement is inclined at 30 degrees. And that translated to the quadruple tourbillon, which is basically two double tourbillons with a spherical differential. Then there was the tourbillon 24 second. So that was not a double tourbillon, but it had a faster rotational speed and an incline at 25 degrees. So it was about figuring out what the best composition would be in terms of number of components and weights to actually improve performance. I guess the best example of that was the International Chronometry Competition where the Double Tourbillon was submitted. So it was a series of very demanding tests over several weeks and it did achieve a variation of between 0.3 and 0.8 seconds a day across the entirety of the competition. So that was the first time that people realized that, oh, this wasn't just for show, there was actually an invisible purpose behind that kind of development. And then that translated. So even going back to Renault Puppy, when they were working on perpetual calendars, they saw the problems that were traditionally related to that. And so the QP that we have today is also, in part, the goal is to solve every problem you could possibly have had with a traditional perpetual calendar.
- [24:58]
B
So what kind of problems are you trying to solve there?
- [25:02]
D
So one part was they wanted to get rid of the handbook because usually you would have pushers and you need to figure out, you know, the exact sequence and then if you go too far, you have a problem. So our perpetual calendar today has no pushers, there's just a crown. I mean, there's a pusher in the crown, basically. And the only thing that does is selects between HM and qp, HM standing for hours and minutes. So if it's on HM mode, you adjust the time as you normally would and then you go to QP and then you have an inline day, date, month to which you can go forwards, you can go backwards and you can really do whatever you want. Is impossible to actually break the mechanism or to set to a date which doesn't exist. And that's then coupled with a number of security mechanisms. So if you want to adjust your calendar at midnight, which traditionally you would definitely not want to do, you're not supposed to do that, I hear, but here it's not going to let you do it. So even if you're on Quick Correction, so there's a lot of behind the scenes effort where a lot of people say, that's a nice looking perpetual calendar. Below the surface there's always a nightmare of obstacles to overcome. And that was kind of the point. Whether it be Tourbillon or any other thing, when we say we want it to be meaningful, that's kind of that. And so that was what Robert and Steven set out to do from the very beginning. And that's what we try to continue to do.
- [26:28]
B
And we're not here to talk about other brands, but we heard a lot of noise last year from Audemars Piguet talking about their qp, which is operated and set by the Crown as well. I mean, is that a comparable product, do you think? I mean, should we have all thought, well, Grubel Forsey already did this.
- [26:52]
D
Yeah, you should have. So, you know, I think is that, by the way, fantastic watch, which I was able to see before it launched. So I was very excited about that. I want to say, more often than not, it's about us being able to offer a complete package. So while they have just a crown, it has two crown positions, and then the direction matters. We don't have that. I personally think it's much easier, but that's, you know, that's just a personal preference. But then to just have an inline display, day, date, month, you're not going to find that every other day. So while some brands focus on one specific development, I feel that for the perpetual, or even for a grandsonnery, it's about kind of checking all of the boxes all at the same time. And that was kind of the real challenge. So if it were just about having that one crown, that would have been a lot easier than to have the one crown and the inline display and the security mechanisms and all of that.
- [27:53]
B
Right. And let's talk about your journey and time here at Grubel Foursey. Talk about when you joined, what kind of jobs that you've done over the years, and then we'll talk about how you ended up being the chief executive officer, which is a role you've been in for just almost a couple of years now. But, yeah, I mean, how did you come to Grubel Forsey in the first place?
- [28:17]
D
By accident, actually. So Robert Grubel is my stepdad and I was always kind of part of the conversation, but it was at the kitchen table and there was no official involvement. And. And actually, in the beginning, I would probably never have wanted to work for Global Forsey, just because I felt like I wanted to deserve my place at whatever company work at. I did kind of start just due to the fact that no one seemed to speak English here in Le Chef. So I was some translation, some social media, I think for the art piece where we were working with Willard Wigan, who's a British artist, I went to translate, basically, that was that. And then I guess one thing led to the other. I started doing PR also for that reason. And then I kind of did almost everything you could imagine doing, except for actual watchmaking. And, yeah, I would say one thing led to another. And now it's been 10 years officially, and today I Cannot imagine being working anywhere else. So it's. In the beginning, it might have been a job. Now it is my life basically. And I honestly couldn't be happier.
- [29:40]
B
And yeah, I mean, you're not a watchmaker by training, but you grew up in Switzerland. I know you did some schooling elsewhere at certain points. But yeah, I mean, I did get
- [29:51]
D
a chance to spend some time at the workbench with Robert that I'm really happy about because I don't think a lot of people are able to do that. But it's something that, that I would love to pursue once I have more time, if I should have more time, because I really did enjoy it quite a bit because it let me. My brain was focused on one thing and one thing only. And I found that to be strangely therapeutic. Of course, I don't have to. I wasn't on a deadline, I didn't have to deliver. So it's easy to say, just to say. I don't have any formal education in watchmaking, but I, I have a pretty deep appreciation for the work that's going
- [30:28]
B
on here every day and a fairly good understanding. And so, yeah, I've just been walking through the manufacturer here and the facility. I've been here before, but it's been a while. Talk about. We're here in La Chaux de Fonds. There is a very old building that one walks into and then there's this much more modern, quite open space with lots of windows. How many people do you have here? What are they doing every day? What's coming out of this place?
- [30:56]
D
Okay, so we're 130 people and we have this one location. We're renting some space close by, but everything that we do, we do it here. And we're almost fully integrated now. Not by choice or that was never the plan, but it was more of a necessity. So we found that there's very few suppliers that, you know, want to work with us just because the, the quantities that we need are extremely low and the quality is extremely high. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense for suppliers to work. So, same thing. One thing kind of led to the other and we ended up with what I feel is a massive infrastructure considering the fact that we only make 200 timepieces a year now. So even the CNC machines that you saw, they don't run most of the time, which is kind of contradictory to what it's supposed to be doing. But the only reason we use them is that we have full control over the geometry of the components and that then by having that, you have control over the architecture of the movement, which is something which is important for us, given that we don't really have full dials. So we like to showcase the movement and the depth of the movement. And then in turn that allows us to showcase hand finishing. So the 130 people, I would say almost everyone is dedicated to watchmaking in some form or another. So our marketing communications department is one person, sales is two plus two back office of four people, one hr, one person, finance, one controlling. So people are not directly involved. It's very limited. And that kind of. What's interesting is that everyone kind of does everything. So we're still in this kind of startup mentality. But again, every other resource is dedicated to watchmaking. So 20 hand finishers, 20 people just for R&D. Our handmade department is eight people now, I believe, dedicated only to machining parts by hand and so on and so forth.
- [32:59]
B
And you showed me a machine that was a CNC machine that was fairly new to you that you told me you can actually make your own cases now. Not perhaps all the cases you need, but. So yeah, I mean, why are you taking on a machine like that when this part of the world is full of case makers and companies that could theoretically supply you? Why do you have a CNC machine now that could make cases, for example?
- [33:29]
D
So there's a number of reasons. And we've had this with a case maker that we used to work with quite a lot who did a big part of our cases, and the person that was in charge of that retired. And no one knew how to do our cases anymore because of the level of skill required, which is true for cases and for a lot of other parts. So. So if we don't have at least part of the know how ourselves, we run the risk of losing part of that know how, which is generally an issue for us in the industry. That's why with Time foundation, the idea is also to preserve, safeguard and transmit certain skills which are necessary for us and which more often than not depend on the skill of the engineer. So it's not about the machine, it's about the person behind the machine. So that was one part. And then given the instability sometimes on the market, you know, if there's a supplier that's. That should be suffering, it has a direct impact on us. And what was funny was during COVID or just after Covid, everyone was super busy, right? And so they said, well, you know, we don't really have time to do stuff for you. Because we have so much going on and now it's like, oh, we can't do anything for you, because we don't. We're out of work. And so we just basically want to make sure that what we're doing is as sustainable as it could be. But just to say our casemaker is absolutely fantastic. So we don't plan on making our own cases, but it's just nice to know that you can if you need to.
- [35:03]
B
So when you're making that a kind of investment, because CNC machines cost hundreds of thousands of friends, as you well know. I mean, how are you finding that balance in terms of investment and production and figuring out your cost? Because. Because that's not the model for which much of the industry is operating under. I mean, how much do Grubel forsey watches cost? And how has that price sort of changed over the past five years or so?
- [35:41]
D
So our entry level, if you will, is today at 170. Even though we are 170,000 francs? Yes, correct. Yeah. We are working on something to go a little bit lower, but we're not sure if we can succeed because even 170 is, you know, we're not making any money with it, to be perfectly honest with you. But we're still trying. There's different ways that we're looking at it now. So it's between 170 and our grandsonnery, which was 11 years of development, is 1-250Swiss. So the range is quite broad, but average would be around 300, 350.
- [36:17]
B
Okay. And before you were in this role, there was someone else who was the CEO. I think they were in that role for a couple of years. I mean, their public declaration was that they were going to ramp up production to maybe 500 watches per year, bring down the average price. So I think it was $200,000, $250,000. What's changed in terms of the strategy under your leadership now?
- [36:45]
D
So the objective of making 500 watches is one of the first things that was just abandoned. While we did for many years, we made 100 a year. I want to say that was not a great situation either, because if you have 100. 130 people only making 100 watches and you have this significant investment in R and D and general infrastructure, then it was a bit tight for a while. So I think increasing from 1 to 200 was really good. Actually, that helped us quite a bit. But I don't think if we should be able to make 251 day, that's great. But no one is asking us to. And we don't really see a reason why we should because that's not what we're excited about. We're excited about developing new movements and finding new solutions for all the problems. And that's kind of what we try to do. So the production numbers are generally kind of a consequence of whatever timepieces we choose to do that given year. And then honestly, the, in terms of price range or price segment for every given model, it just depends on how much it costs us. So it would be great to say, hey, we made a handmade watch and let's say we can offer it for 100,000, which people will appreciate, but it costs us way more than 100,000 to actually make it. So the prices today, they're more of a consequence of what our investment is. Big part of the value always being man hours, mostly for hand finishing, where that's always kind of been the bottleneck. And I feel like, at least for now, it's going to remain a bottleneck because there's just not that many people out there and you cannot really accelerate the process or gain any kind of efficiency with it. So I want to say there is no specific strategy in terms of pricing, apart from the fact that yes, we would love to have a new entry level which would be closer to 120. Maybe we were talking even about being closer to 100. We want to be able to offer that, but we'll only see if it works once we've built the first watch.
- [38:58]
B
Realistically, how far away are you from something that it is a plan that you'd really like to get to.
- [39:04]
D
It would be for next year.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah, interesting.
- [39:05]
D
Of course it wouldn't be a quadruple tourbillon and there's not that many things we can change in order to achieve that. Because as you know, for example, the finishing on an entry level or on the very high end is the same, same. So there's no two different qualities for our finishing. The only thing you can do is say, okay, if we reduce the number of components, you reduce the number of surfaces that you have to finish and hopefully you can gain a little bit more. You know, you can do it a little bit quicker and then we would be able to offer it at a, at a lower price point. But honestly, today it's something that we would love to do, but I, I can't confirm whether or not we're going to see succeed.
- [39:47]
B
Right, so you're trying to get there now. I guess the last time I saw a analyst estimate in terms of your revenue or sales, was Morgan Stanley in, I think for the year 2023, around 50 million Swiss francs? They suggested the next year it was close to that, but maybe you declined a bit. What has your revenue and sales look like in the past couple of years? And then how much can you talk about on the profitability side and how that's looking these days with the various cost pressures and changes we've had with the Swiss franc, obviously the price of precious metals, gold in particular.
- [40:28]
D
So in terms of the Morgan Stanley report, that's all about. Right. But to give you an example for last year was actually the first time that we bought back stock from retailers. So we bought back for, I believe, 8 million. So. So that could have been. We could have had that money, but we decided to reinvest it because we want to have a very healthy situation with retailers in terms of sell in,
- [40:53]
B
sell out and stock for them.
- [40:57]
D
There was a number of pieces which had been with retailers for many years for different reasons. Some weren't as active anymore as they used to be, but they still held onto their stock. Others, I would say, were also overstocked. And the consequence of that was that discounting was always an issue. And then in turn, the secondary market value is, while I will say it's actually better than most people would expect and better than I thought, at least from the auctions, I feel like it should be even better. So that was an additional investment that we made. So in terms of revenue, it wasn't as high as it could have been, but we feel like it's important to do this, this now, and we're going to continue this year and invest even more, actually, because at the end of the day, if you have a collector and enthusiast spending, let's say, 500 grand on a watch, even if the secondary market value should be 10% below retail, which I feel would be totally fine, it's still 10% of 500 grand. It's still a big number. So if it were a watch for five grand, it doesn't really, really hurt you as much. So with this, we're kind of tackling the symptoms of the problem, but at the same time, in terms of our production, also why we didn't increase further, let's say if there's a timepiece where there's a demand for, or we want to make, let's say, 20, but there's a demand for 10, we will only deliver 10 to try to avoid in the future, again to overstock the market. And this is kind of A new way of looking at it, which I know it's normal for most people and most, but it's just not the way we saw it. We were more concerned about making the most beautiful timepieces we could. And so the hard part, Robert and Steven, they built the atelier, they assembled this fantastic team, but there's just this sort of last link in the chain, I guess, which I feel hasn't deserved as much attention as it should have. And that would be the top priority for us now in 2026.
- [43:01]
B
Interesting. And so how will we see that sort of playing out in terms of to have an impact and improve valuations on the secondary market? Will we see you buying back more stock from retailers or not from auctions?
- [43:17]
D
Because we don't want to have people think that the value is somewhere where it isn't. But from retailers, definitely. And then from end clients as well. We've did some of that because if they are the type of collector who wants to kind of rotate their collection and move on to something else, then I feel we are responsible and it's a nice service that we can say, hey, we're here and you can sell that back to us. So we've been doing some of that and then mostly with retailers as well.
- [43:47]
B
So your clients, if they do want to potentially move on from one of your pieces that they've had before to upgrade or try something new from you. So, I mean, we do see other brands do that. I mean, MB and F does something like that. I mean, are you looking to some of these brands as sort of models for.
- [44:07]
D
Not necessarily. We feel that it's just in everyone's best interest for us to do that. So even like for 2026. And actually you also asked how is business going right now? So I haven't answered that and I'll do that right now. So we have allocated.
- [44:22]
B
We can get around to it.
- [44:24]
D
We have now allocated our entire production for the year and we have around 50 additional requests and we're moving all of this to 2027. So we want to work on an 18 month rotating budget, basically. So it's really not about making as much money as we can in any given fiscal year. We would love to be as stable as possible. And so while we probably should have had wait lists since the very beginning, it turns out we didn't necessarily have that. But now for the handmade timepieces, for example, example, the next one, if someone would like to order one today, would be for 2030. Wow. And that's obviously very limited production so we're going to do three handmade twos and one handmade one in 2026. So, yeah, the idea is to have the healthiest possible situation and even if that, sometimes it's frustrating. So if you have a client request for a specific piece, we could just produce, produce it and sell it, but we prefer to buy one back if there's one still with any retailer and then ship it to another retailer. So it's not making us any money. But we feel that it's an important
- [45:38]
B
thing to do in terms of how you the right amount of supply out there in the market to meet demand. Talk about how sort of. You talked about stability. I mean, obviously it's been very much in the news and we wrote about it recently that Stephen Forsey, who is obviously a co founder of the brand, had been still involved and on the board, has now resigned from the board, basically made some comments in social media that obviously there's disagreements about certain things. What can you tell us in terms of what happened there and how that relationship went the way it did and how that's going to impact the brand going forward?
- [46:23]
C
Forward?
- [46:23]
D
Yeah, I suppose. I mean, that's, that's kind of my personal take on it. You know, it's not the official story or whatnot, but I feel that, you know, if we work together for 25 years closely, that's kind of like a marriage. And then there's a lot of emotion obviously involved in all of that. I was disappointed to see the, you know, the thing on social media and all that. I didn't, I didn't see that coming for me if, you know, if they should have me 20 years from now, in 20 years, I will still be talking about Stephen Forsey because when I started I was fortunate enough to spend four years basically learning from him.
- [46:59]
B
You worked directly with Stephen when he
- [47:02]
D
was for the PR part, so that was fantastic for me personally. But then generally, he will always have founded the brand and his values and Robert's values, they will always be linked to the brand. That's something that we don't even want to compromise on it. And I was asked the question, actually, if we're going to call ourselves just Grebel from now on. And I was like, well, no, because their identity and their values are closely linked. So in any case, for the next, as long as everyone's going to have me here, I want to show my respect and appreciation for Stephen, who's someone that I will always continue to admire. In terms of changes. There won't be any because it's true that Stephen has been less and less involved in day to day operations over the past five or six years, which was kind of the point a few years back. Robert and Steven, they wanted for the brand to become independent of its founders or actually even just to build a brand because that was never the objective. Right. So that would have been the consequence of that anyway. So I don't see any reason to shift any kind of strategy whatsoever. And I will say this also because you started the podcast talking about the GPHG where we submitted the Nano food round, which was our third 37.9 millimeter case. That's kind of a side thing, but people's like, oh, you have a new strategy, you're doing smaller watches now. And I said, well, that was defined in 2014 and this is now the consequence of a decision which was taken 10 years ago. So whatever you see tomorrow or the day after tomorrow is never going to be a strategy shift. It's just something we started working on years ago. And it just so happens be to that is coming out now. And in the same way, if Seymour is no longer involved today, it's not going to change anything about what we do tomorrow. And if I should not be involved anymore tomorrow, it's not going to change what we're going to do the day after tomorrow. So I see my job as helping everyone achieve their wildest dreams internally to kind of create a space where this sort of artistic expression can flourish with watchmakers, hand finishers and implementing a notion of like, methodology and processes so that this can go on regardless of who's in charge. Basically. I don't know if. Does that make any sense?
- [49:38]
B
No, that makes absolutely makes sense. And then obviously, you know, we know that Robert Grubel owns, I believe, 51% of the shares. Stephen Forsey owns 49%. There have been some suggestions that the brand is looking for investment or is up for sale. What's your understanding of what that situation is?
- [50:01]
D
Okay, well, I can be quite blunt about that now. We're not looking for investors, we're not looking to sell. I guess this always kind of comes up and I understand because I think there's probably quite. There's very few brands who are completely independent and we're one of them. I don't know who else would be.
- [50:19]
B
At one point Richmal owned, I believe, 20% of Grube of 4C and it
- [50:23]
D
was then you bought that back. So actually we're more in the process of, of acquiring than in the process of selling. So this is not something that's on our radar at all. We're not having these conversations and we're not looking to start such conversations neither financially. I feel like we're very fortunate to be in a fantastically good place despite complicated circumstances. You mentioned the Swiss franc as compared to the dollar and there was a tariffs as well.
- [50:55]
B
Indeed.
- [50:56]
D
And what I found, found over the last year and a half is, you know, if you had asked me a year and a half ago, I would have said, well, this is not a business model, it makes no sense to work the way we do. But more and more I'm starting to kind of see that it's surprisingly resilient and more than others. So, you know, just as a side note, the tariff thing, it really didn't impact us at all. And we can, you know, we're small enough to maintain a high degree of flexibility. So it's not this huge machine that takes months to stop and to put on a different track. So these kinds of things are helpful. So I don't see a situation where we would be in a position where we need investment coming in in order to do our business.
- [51:46]
B
Okay, can you give us a sense in terms of profitability? I mean, save for a few big names, the industry has certainly under pressure lately. I've just walked through the facility. You have some very expensive machines, you have a lot of people here. You're actually much busier than a lot of watch manufacturers that I visit in my time lately. So, yeah, what does profitability look like and where do you see that revenue and sales number sort of heading in the short term?
- [52:21]
D
So we have a, we have a weird concept of profitability. Whatever money we do make, we just reinvest it into R and D. So as an example, we have I believe 68 patents and then plus the inventions,
- [52:37]
B
of course, 68 patents, which I feel
- [52:39]
D
is an insane amount. We did that comparison. There's like, there's a very few and the ones who have are usually, you know, they have a 200 year old history, but we've only ever used half of all of those just because it needs investment. So one of the inventions is the Balancier Spiral Bina. So it's a diamond balance wheel hairspring system. The only reason we didn't deploy is just that it's super expensive to actually build. And so when we're talking about profitability, it's just going to fuel more of our ambitions and dreams. But the goal isn't really to make money, I mean, just enough to. But we're all pretty humble people, I would say, just to, you know, live your life normally. But it's about, again, adding something significant to watchmaking, which we're luckily in a position where we can take the Handmaid, for example, if you're. I would assume if you're in a sort of a big group situation, you're not even going to start doing anything like this because, you know, you have to show quarterly results and you have to show growth. But again, we're independent, so we don't have to do that so we can try to fulfill our wildest dreams.
- [53:54]
B
Interesting. I mean, you know, you talked about the handmade. Obviously, there was a great moment of public recognition for Grubel Forsey, I guess, over a year ago now, when Mark Zuckerberg, the chairman and founder of Meta Facebook, happened to be wearing a handmade.
- [54:12]
D
And you were the first one that wrote about it.
- [54:14]
B
I remember that maybe at the time. Indeed, that's true. Yes. And we. And, you know, that would talk to me about what, if anything, that did for Grubo for. I mean, did it move the needle? Did it do anything? Does it matter?
- [54:31]
D
You know what? Interestingly, it did, but not in the way I expected. So from what I saw is that a lot of our existing collectors, which were always kind of under the radar, they were not public with their Global Force collection. There was never a sense of community. So it was just like, you know, we have collectors all over the world, but they're like individuals. And the fact that they saw Mark Zuckerberg, they're like, oh, you know, I'm not the only one. And there's, you know, there's more insane people like me out there who appreciate what we have to offer. And actually, due to that fact, we figured we should actually start to build that community, which is something that we started doing now to bring Grebel Forsey Collective together. It's not supposed to be a marketing tool or a thing where we send newsletters about things that we want to sell. It's more about being kind of in the circle. We call it the Greubel Forsey family, by the way, being part of the family and to have more attention from us to them while we still sell through our retail network. I feel it's quite interesting that the connection to the brand is valued to such an extent. So I think part of the reason why we just developed this now and we're going to roll it out over the next few weeks was to see that more and more people kind of came out of the woodwork and like, hey, you know, I have this collection of 25 greubels or of 30 and like, you know, we didn't know you existed, but you know, welcome to the family.
- [56:06]
C
Right?
- [56:07]
D
So I think it was more reassuring than anything else that it's that there's more people like me out there.
- [56:14]
B
So will there be events? Will there be get togethers?
- [56:17]
D
We just got. You saw this before. We got like a portable workbench delivered. We want to travel with it and take care of our collectors personal Gremlin 4C collections. We sent out books, like our 20th anniversary books. And then of course, we have gifts and goodies like everyone else does. We just started WhatsApp group as well with our first members. And we just want to. There's no objective necessarily, but we just want to be closer and listen and we get a lot of valuable feedback that we probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise. So again, like I said before, there's almost everything which has been built perfectly by Robert and Steven. But there's just this last link in the chain, like customer service, which is, in my opinion, super important. But it was just never on anyone's radar. And we really want to do as much as we can in that respect.
- [57:14]
B
And are you doing anything more with client outreach? I don't know, visits, trips, sort of, you know, that kind of activation, engagement. And will anything be changing about, you know, distribution or retail? Or are you comfortable with the way that, you know, your watches are available to people now?
- [57:40]
D
So, yeah, we want to do a whole lot of stuff, but as I mentioned before, there's one person for marketing, for sales. You know, we're just a small team and I still do a lot of, like, I write our press releases today, for example, which is not a normal thing to do.
- [57:53]
B
Usually the CEO doesn't write the pressure.
- [57:55]
D
Yeah, I think that's how that usually works. But I've been doing that for years. I was like, you know, I might as well. It's a sufficient way to go about doing that. So we do want to walk before we run. Like, we don't want to make promises that we can't deliver on. So step by step, we want to start building this community organically. In terms of distribution. I don't see any major changes. The only thing that we've started doing is to be a little bit more, how should I say that? Attentive to what's actually going on. So for example, that we found out that there was a timepiece which was actually in high demand, where I had quite A few people on wait list and a retailer chose to discount to a degree which I wouldn't agree with because I don't know if it was a cash flow situation or with the problem for them. And so basically we canceled the entire backorder for the year. And that's something we hadn't done in the past because we weren't able to afford to do that. But I'm hoping that people realize that it's in everyone's best interest to work in a proper, respectful way. So I guess a few changes like that, but nothing. No major strategic shifts or whatsoever. Today we have, I feel like a pretty nicely balanced distribution where there's no market or region which has a lot more allocation than any other. And that gives us the flexibility that we talked about. If there shouldn't be a problem in xyz, we can shift deliveries elsewhere so that we're not dependent on, let's say, only the US or only Japan. Or only.
- [59:39]
B
What does that look like? I mean, yeah, I think of you as big in Japan, to use the cliche. Middle East, U.S. yeah. How should I think about where Your
- [59:50]
D
markets basically 25% north and South America, 25% Europe, 25% Middle east and 25% Southeast Asia.
- [60:00]
B
Huh. Japan included in that. Do you have much exposure in China?
- [60:06]
D
Mainland China? No. So we do have a presence in Hong Kong, which is pretty good, but mainland China is huge. We only make 200 pieces and that's a tricky one for us to handle. What we've seen is India being more and more important. There's a lot of demand coming out of India and it's increasing actually quite rapidly. So we're happy about that. But we don't have a presence, an official presence in India, So it might go when they travel to Dubai or to the UK or so again, that would probably like, strategically, that would probably be a big next step because in the past there was not a lot of attention given to India, but the demand wasn't as high as it is now. So that. That would be the next thing that we want to look at.
- [60:55]
B
And what does every executive, particularly in this industry, needs things. What's the most pressing sort of need for Greubel foresee at the moment? Is it more skilled workers? Is it investment? Do you need financing or do you need some. Something else?
- [61:22]
D
I'd need a full day to be 48 hours instead of just 24, to be perfectly honest with you, because there's just a gazillion projects that we're doing all in parallel and those are things which could have been done before, but again, the focus was elsewhere. So it's just a lot all at the same time. But then in terms of a tangible need. Let me think for a second.
- [61:53]
B
I mean, yeah, because, I mean, there's lots of. You know, for a long time it's been difficult to find good people, you know, this industry in some ways. And, you know, it's hard to find sometimes good suppliers, good components makers.
- [62:10]
D
Indeed.
- [62:10]
B
This industry is sort of chronically underfunded at certain times. And I think some people are feeling that at the moment. Yeah. Other than more time, we'd all like more time in the day.
- [62:23]
D
But you're right, like skilled people, that has always been the thing. So it was never about the machines or anything like that. It's really about people. But we've kind of. Especially for watchmakers who are all basically in their early 20s, it's kind of like an informal internal training program. So instead of having to find people and retrain them, you just kind of. We tend to work with kind of top of their class, straight out of watchmaking school who want to improve their skills. And what better place to do that than Gribble Forsey?
- [62:58]
C
Right.
- [62:59]
D
The price you pay for that every once in a while is that the person then does his own brand or is so skillful that he or she can do whatever. But actually, more often than not, people do choose to stay or even leave and then come back three months later when they see that, you know, it's not as cool as it is here in some other places. But, yeah, people are always kind of the cornerstone of everything. So also to people who we know are going to retire in a few years, we're making an active effort now to try to have them train someone or even if there's no one person that can do all of what that person retired can do, maybe it's a small team, so it's something that we pay close attention to.
- [63:47]
B
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. So, as I said, we're in sort of mid February. The Watches and Wonders season or time of the year is fast approaching. You're not at Watches. Remind me, are you at Watches and Wonders proper or. No? You're like most of the other brands. You're around that. What should we expect from Grubel Forsey amid the challenges that exist right now in terms of new releases, in terms of what we should expect from existing model lines and product and what to expect.
- [64:28]
D
So we're not actually planning on launching anything during Watches and Wonders itself. Reason Being that there's so many things going on and we kind of have a hard time following this whole what's your novelty? What's your da da, da? Because when we have something new, it's usually a new movement. And if we. Every year we're like, you know, oh, it's the same, but now it's green. We do have different versions of a specific model, so to kind of fit different tastes, but we can't really follow that cycle of having to have new things all the time. So just to say, maybe not specifically for watches and wonders, although we will announce a new project within the Timeyun foundation, which was kind of not as active as it could have been for a while there, but now we have a fantastic project I wouldn't be able to. To announce the start of, and then it's going to take a few years to complete, but we're pretty happy that we can reactivate the foundation.
- [65:24]
B
Talk about the Tamiyan foundation and what it is for those who might not be aware of it.
- [65:29]
D
Sure. So it was again started with Robert and Steven, I believe, back in 2006, when they did notice that as we were talking about, a lot of skills necessary to do certain things had disappeared completely or were disappearing. And schools today, they have a responsibility to teach their students skills which they will use in their professional careers. But if there's no brand out there who's actually using these skills, like for our handmade program, for example, then the only people who still know how to do that are the ones who learned 50 years ago, and you have to do something about that. So the goal of the foundation is to preserve, safeguard, and then transmit these skills. And there was a first project, which was called the Naissance du Montre one, where the idea was Grebel Forsey in Flute D4. They taught. His name is Michel Boulanger, who was a watchmaking teacher, certain skills, and he made his watch, including these skills. So I guess as a bit of a teaser, Naissance du Mont 4 will be done with one of the pupils of Michel Boulanger, who was inspired by that very first project. And now it kind of continues, which I think is very beautiful. And I guess it validates, validates the approach only like 10 years later. But that was always the point. So we're going to do that within the foundation. And then in terms of our creations, we do expect to have around three new movements every year for the next six, seven years. So those are all planned, which is maybe a little bit excessive, but at least that's what we're working on. And then if we launch them or not, that's a different thing. 2026 generally will be the year where we still make the last double balance, the last balance S2s, the last architectures. Given that we promised people that they're going to be in production for five years. Only these five years are now here. So we're now transitioning basically into an entirely new collection almost entirely. And the first example of that is hopefully going to be towards the end of this year where we did put a lot of effort into. Into having grible force basically in a smaller diameter. So we're looking at a 39.5 millimeter convex case, for example. And that was one of the things that we heard quite a lot where people like oh my God, Grible Forsey is amazing. I love everything about it. I just don't have the wrist for it. So we want to have an offering in diameters which are smaller than what we've been known for making in the past.
- [68:08]
B
Interesting. That's great. Last question.
- [68:11]
D
Sure.
- [68:11]
B
You are not wearing a watch right now. I rarely interview CEOs who aren't wearing a watch and usually they're watch brand. Why are you not wearing a watch, Michelle?
- [68:26]
D
It's a good question. I feel that it's something that I need to deserve. So when I see our clients, they acquire Grebel Forsey to celebrate selling their company or to celebrate. Celebrate big milestones in their life and it's a big investment. And for me, just because I have access to the watches doesn't necessarily give me the right to pretend to be a Grebel Forsey owner. So I feel like at some point, if there's a big milestone in my life, I would love to buy a Grebel Forsey at the full retail price because otherwise it will be kind of an unfair advantage for me, if you will. So I guess I'll have to wait a little while longer. But I think it's something that I enjoy waiting for as well. And I don't want to just rock a grip of Forsey casually, of course, during events and all that. I kind of have to and I enjoy it every time I do. But to actually wear a Grebel Forsey every day, I haven't deserved that yet.
- [69:38]
B
Grand Michel, we will leave it there. Thank you very much for your time.
- [69:42]
D
Thank you, Andy.
- [69:47]
A
And that's the business of watches for
- [69:49]
B
this episode we hope you enjoyed.
- [69:52]
A
Please head on over to Hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows, we might even answer your
- [70:05]
B
question question on a future episode.
- [70:07]
A
Thanks for listening and see you next time.