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HODINKEE Podcasts
The Business of Watches [022] Maxime Couturier And Lorenzo Maillard Of The New Chronopolis Watch Fair
00:45:51
Chronopolis will be another venue for brands to exhibit during Geneva Watch Week, and its founders tell us why there's a need for one more fair.
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the business of watches, the Hodiki podcast, where horology meets high finance. We go behind the scenes to talk to the executives making things tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. This week we're taking the temperature on watch fairs, where the watch industry gathers and shows off its wares. We're talking with the guys behind Chronopolis or Chronopolis, a new show happening during Geneva Watch Week, the time of year that's led by the biggest fair of them all, Watches and wonders. To kick things off, I'm joined by my colleague Hodiki senior editor Mark Kozlerich to talk about the state of watch salons and fairs. Mark, thanks for joining me. How are you doing today, sir?
- [00:54]
B
Thanks for having me. I'm great. I'm glad to be here.
- [00:57]
A
Excellent. So look, watch fairs, I mean, you know, you and I have covered a bunch of watch fairs together, Geneva watch days, Dubai Watch week and of course watches and wonders. Watch fairs have been around for a very long time. We can go back to Basel and Baselworld and they've existed for decades and I guess that ended sadly around 2019 or 2020. But what's the current state of watch fares? What role do they play and why? Why do we still do them?
- [01:26]
B
Yeah, I think watch fairs are a really interesting thing, especially right now. We've seen in the post pandemic era that the business of selling watches has shifted dramatically, especially because of all of the interest in watches. And consumers seem to be putting a lot more on the interactions between them and the brands and the watchmakers themselves. The rise of independence, being able to get face to face with the people that are behind the brand. Whereas I think, and I wasn't around at the time, but I think that the watch fair used to maybe service more the intermediaries, the people that were selling the watches and getting them to people, and you were a little bit more gatekept from the brands and the people behind it. Now we've got all of these watch fairs, not only the big ones like watches and wonders, which are open to the public on specific days, which is a, frankly a big change. But you have smaller watch fairs where brand representatives or the watchmakers themselves are traveling all over the world much more frequently to meet with the end customer. And I think it's really changed your understanding of what the watches are, what you're getting, your relationship to the brand. And really it's a back and forth. People have been asking for that. People are much more invested in these things. But also it gets People more invested in these things. It gets people more excited about the products and the people behind it. And watch fairs, frankly, have a lot to do with that.
- [03:06]
A
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it's indeed, I mean, I think you bring up a good point that the end consumer is asking and looking for participation in these events now, these days, as you say, I mean, it used to be, you know, buyers, retailers, watch journalists, like ourself, watch writers going to these things and then we'd, you know, spread the good news of what was new. And nowadays, obviously, we've seen watches and wonders open up to the public for several days. Many of the other fairs that we go to, lots of public participation. Indeed. I think that interaction's kind of sort of being demanded by the end consumer and having a different relationship with brands not being so gatekept, as you say, but as we get prepared for watches and wonders and then at the same time, time to watches, Chronopolis, all the brands that are at the Beau Rivage. I mean, these things are so big now, particularly Geneva Watch Week. Does it make sense, do you think, for all the brands to be together at one time and everybody releasing new releases, it's hard to stand out?
- [04:19]
B
Yeah, I think there's a couple issues here and it's something that I've been very frequently and very candid with bringing up to the. The people behind the brands. Right. I really care a lot about especially some of the micro brands. I'll say that I'm micro brands or independents. I, I would consider myself almost friends with some of these people. Andrea Furlan from Furlong, Mari. I speak to just about life, right. And, and we chat about these things and I want to see them succeed. I'd say Gael Peterman and Florian Bada and Hazman and Monan who just recently won the LV to these guys socially. And I want to see them succeed and some have no problem sort of breaking through that noise. But even big brands, and I won't say who during Watches and Wonders, candidly, they might get a little frustrated at the fact that they don't get top placement on day one, when we're normally talking about Rolex and Patek and if a bigger brand that is maybe a Holy Trinity brand or something like that, that doesn't get the same, you know, first story during watches and wonders, even though they've got good products, if they get frustrated, what they, what they don't realize is, unfortunately nobody is talking about anything but Rolex and Patek the first day largely. And then you think about how that cascades down to smaller brands or there's, you know, a couple brands that are launching right before Watches and Wonders. They're, you know, coming out with their first product. It's maybe not the best choice to launch that product when. When there is so much. No. And so I tell them frequently, I'm like, this might not be the best time, right? You might need to show the product to people. I know you want to show it to everybody that comes to Geneva, but consider the fact that if you launch it, it's in your best interest. And I told this to somebody yesterday, that I'm not going to maybe write the story until a week later. That's not because the product is bad, but you're going to get more attention that way. And then you think about what that means for the fairs themselves. We've got Time Watches, we've got a couple other fairs going on. AHCI is going on, and there's a lot of noise. And one of my frustrations is they say, hey, we're in Geneva. Please come by, we would love to see you. We can show you our watches any day from the 14th to the 17th. And I'll say, from 14th to 17th, I am stuck at the PAL Expo meeting with 40 other brands. And maybe it's not, you know, they're capitalizing on the fact that people are there, and that's great, but maybe it isn't the best time to host a watch fair. Maybe you should offset it by a couple days or do it over the weekend when people are coming in early and you're not competing against the likes of Patek or Rolex or Bulgari or whoever you want to see otherwise. So I think that is one piece of feedback that I have for these brands is it's nothing against you guys, it's just that the volume of product and the volume, you know, metaphorically of. Of the brands that are shouting out at the same time is going to drown out what you're doing, which is worth its own attention at a separate time.
- [07:46]
A
No doubt, no doubt. I mean, but look, we, we. You'd also, I think, concede, though, that we're seeing, you know, that watch release calendar, which used to just be in March or April, around Watches and Wonders or what was SIHH and Basel, has now spread out, you know, over the entire year. We see major releases from both the big brands and the small guys, you know, throughout the year. So, you know, and obviously, you know, Swatch Group has a very different participation level in these big Fairs than they used to and they do things at their own pace. So, yeah, we've already seen, I think, you know, that disbursement of the release calendar. But indeed, this, you know, the next month or so, it's pretty packed and pretty concentrated. So look, thanks for joining me, Mark. We will see you very soon, I'm sure. And now here's our conversation with Maxime Couturier and Lorenzo Maillard from Chronopolis Watch Fair happening April 14th to 18th at Les Art d' Ile in Geneva. We are in Plain Palais in downtown Geneva. I am with Lorenzo Maillard and Maxime Couturier. These are the young guys behind a new watch fair, part of the Watches and Wonders Week, Geneva Watch Week that will be taking place in mid April. Chronopolis is a new fair and Lorenzo and Maxime are here to tell us about it. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you for joining the business of watches.
- [09:38]
C
Thanks for having us.
- [09:39]
D
Thank you, Andy, for having us on this great podcast.
- [09:42]
A
Very good, very good. So, yeah, I mean, you know, the first question is, do we need another watch fair? I mean, we already have Watches and Wonders, obviously, which is the flagship. We have time to watches. We have all the brands at the Beau Rivage. Why did you guys decide to start yet another watch fair during Geneva Watch Week?
- [10:03]
C
Well, maybe we're going to kill the suspense, but basically we've done one because we've been asked to do one. So certain brands came to us, they had a certain spirit and they asked us to do something so they can gather and do something that was more like them. So basically we tried to deliver on what they were looking for. And yeah, we're trying to kind of fill the gap that we see and trying to have fun and to do something very open to everyone.
- [10:31]
A
Yeah, Maxi, you're right. I mean, so talk about the venue. I mean, where this is going to take place, it's at Les Alde d' Il here in Geneva. What's the atmosphere and feeling you're going for and how does that reflect the brands that we'll see?
- [10:50]
C
So basically, probably Lorenzo will tell you more about Chronopolis and how it came about. But what we want to do is do something that is quite central and for the public as well. So it has to be downtown so everybody can come. We also needed to find find a place where it's easy for everyone going to all the previous fairs that you mentioned that was easy to access to. And I think you can go more central than being in the Aldolille which is basically near Bel Air, which is the biggest stop in Geneva.
- [11:20]
A
Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's certainly central and everyone sort of passes through there. Lorenzo. I mean you, you know, I've known you guys for quite a while, I guess, you know, since I've been around the watch world. You know, let's talk about, you know, sort of your background and I mean the Maillard family is sort of all around watches here in Geneva. I mean, talk about how you got into watches and what you do now and how that relates to Chronopolisse.
- [11:50]
D
Yeah, that's a good question because off mic we were talking about Plan Palais and it was also kind of a start for me in the watchmaking world. I would say, of course, indirectly. My family has been in the business for a long time, for a few generations, but I wouldn't say that is directly my father who passed me on the, the passion. It was more on my own discovering watches at the Plan Market, for example, and other other fairs starting really with vintage pieces like 50 or 20, 20 bucks watches. And I even thought to myself like, I will never buy a watch above $1,000. So I, I, I made a.
- [12:31]
A
Have you, have you. I don't think you've kept that from.
- [12:33]
D
I failed pretty much pretty quickly. As soon as I had a little bit of money, I spent it on watches. And yeah, vintage was definitely important for me, the story behind it and less the overall market itself. And then I worked for, I did my studies of course in Switzerland and I worked for the FHH in Geneva, the Fondation d' Hotelville for five years. And that's where I developed my knowledge even further and also my passion for watches. And that's actually where I met Maxime. We worked together on a few cool project and we wanted to do something that really, yeah, seemed, seemed in line with our vision and what we wanted to bring to the watchmaking game, I would say.
- [13:16]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think of you guys, you know, here in Geneva, I think of you as the young, cool, hip guys, guys who are into sort of design driven watches and have really sort of been at the forefront of that trend. Talk about, you know, Chronopolis or Chronopolis as some people may call it when they read it and how that's going to be reflected in some of the brands and what people will, you're hoping people will experience.
- [13:46]
D
Yeah, I think Maxim already mentioned the most crucial part of Chronopolis is it's the openness, the values and really being open to the public and Free as well. And that's also the spirit of the brands. They want to probably push another narrative than the traditional watch brands that are here to stay. But there's another path, another road. It's pretty much the same thing that we do with Iced Out. Our magazine is not saying that we do something better than the others, just there's another route, another way of talking about watches. And that's probably what all the 20 brands exhibiting at Chronopolis are trying to do as well, being open. So it's a great place to discuss with the CEO or the creator of the brand, potentially buy on site as well, the watch. And also this affordability approach is important. Of course, it's really subjective, the affordability, but a lot of watches are pretty affordable in today's watch world. And I think it's also part of their spirit is like connecting with people on one to one basis and really showcase their product in a relaxed and unbiased way as most as possible.
- [14:51]
C
And that might be crazy, but you can actually buy the new releases from the brands right on spot. So it should be a younger generation they want to buy, or even the new consumer they want to buy straight away. They see it, they want to have it. So it's also an opportunity for them to do it. It's not necessarily the case in the other fairs and it was an important point for them to be able to sell them.
- [15:14]
D
Yeah, I think it's a way to bypass also the traditional way of getting a watch. Now it has become really complicated, budget wise, but also the availability of watches as well. So it's probably a way to talk to younger generation about. Yeah, you can get your hands on a cool watch for probably less than traditional brands and still have it in a pretty fast manner.
- [15:36]
A
And. Yeah, so let's talk about, you know, sort of the origins though, this, you know, you say that brands approached you. I mean, can you be specific about what, you know, how this came about exactly, and who these brands are and why they think they need this different kind of venue during what we call now called Geneva Watch Week.
- [15:57]
C
Well, I think it was four brands initially, but I think that now we're speaking to 20 brands. And really it's not about the four first brands. I think they were the catalyzer. That's a word in English.
- [16:08]
A
It is now.
- [16:09]
C
It is.
- [16:10]
A
They were the catalyst for sure.
- [16:12]
C
Basically the idea was really to find a spot for the people that have the same philosophy to work together. And I think they liked what we did with the different events that we had in Geneva, some of the iced out with Sotheby's auction houses that we've done, all the launches that we do with iced outs. I think they liked the spirit. And when they needed to find someone to organize this get together, they thought about us. And actually that made everything easier as well, because they wanted to do what we usually do. And so that's why we took up on the challenge as well, I guess.
- [16:48]
D
Yeah. I think also bringing a storytelling feature to the fair is important for us, but also for them, for us, because we want to link it back to something that is tangible or intangible sometimes, but it needs to have this kind of a layer, otherwise it would be less interesting. And probably other watch fairs are already doing a great job. So we need to bring something a bit different. So that's what we tried with our budget and the realities we are confronting. But, yeah, storytelling is really important. Hence the name as well. Chronopolis is a bit different from time or watches, these words that we see a lot because we want to tell a bit of a different story. So that was important.
- [17:28]
A
And let's talk about the name. Yeah, Chronopolis or Chronopolis, however we say it. Where does that, you know, Chrono obviously makes one think of watches. But why the name?
- [17:39]
D
There's different influences, but of course, yeah, being a bit further away from words like time and watches, for example, or all these words that we hear a lot. But also because we were kind of building a city within a city. Les Haldol, where Chronopolis is going to take place, is actually in the middle of Geneva, as Maxim was saying, and it's on kind of on its own little island. So we instantly thought about kind of a city within Geneva and the city of time. Then Chronopolis was kind of crucial and an instant match. And as well, it worked in every languages. And it's actually an inspiration from a movie, an animation movie that dates back from 1980s. So, yeah, all these little reference elements were important. And I think, yeah, building this kind of a community and city where we opened the doors to everyone, that was really important. So that's why we call it Chronopolis.
- [18:33]
A
Very cool. No, it's a great name. And indeed, trying to have that vision of a little storytelling watch community, a little watch metropolis. Certainly sounds fun and enticing. I mean, I think famously in the past, some executives on the board at Watch and Wonders have, I think, you know, jokingly referred to the others who, you know, show their wares during what's now called Geneva Watch Week as sort of pirates. Have you had any sort of communication with Watches and Wonders of the other fairs themselves? And how does that work in terms of, you know, setting up the inaugural edition of Chrono Police?
- [19:15]
C
It's actually one of the first things that we've done and they were the first people to know. For us it was really important to tell them that we were organizing this not to be seen as pirates. Also for the brands it was important for them to say, oh, we're going to gather up, we can't afford to be at Watches and Wonders or we can't go there. We don't feel like we want to go to another watch fair. So we're doing a little something. So it's actually the first people we reached out to. We have a marketing agency called Apres Demain and we actually work with Watches and Wonders as well. So as Lorenzo said, for us it's never a deal big about confronting or pointing someone. It's about providing another way of talking about watches. And it was just the same thing. So basically we went there and we said, oh, some brands wants to gather up. We're helping them out to do something is during Watches and Wonders.
- [20:09]
D
And I think we're grateful and completely aware of how important Watches and Wonders is for Geneva and also the way they want to open more to the public. That's why we stopped the Chrono Police Fair on Saturday and we let as well the public experience Watches and Wonders. And yeah, without Watches and Wonders there would be no Geneva Watch Week. So we're completely aligned with their motto. We're just offering another opportunity for watch brands to talk about watches in this probably the most important time of the year for watches.
- [20:42]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. And so yeah, let's talk about, I mean so people understand some of the brands that are involved. We've got Baltic, well known French based brand Denison which has had huge success lately with their affordable quartz design driven pieces edged, which is a French brand. I really quite like their stuff. Nevada Grenchen. Yeah, I mean talk about, you know, what do these brands sort of have in common? Or do they have something in common, do you think? And why are they part of the show?
- [21:16]
D
I think they all share these the same values, I would say they all are of different marketplace, I would say and prices and design of course, and stories, but they all have the same spirit. A lot of the brands that joined Chronopolis were actually friends with others and they joined because another brand was already joining. So this kind of a spirit of a family and that's where we really have to keep and be sure to keep if we go further than this first edition. And I think yeah they all want to be a bit disruptive in their own segments. I would say they all bringing something a bit different to the game. There's not really look alikes in the 20 brands. They don't try as well to copy other traditional watch brands even though some have a real old history. Like Genshin for example.
- [22:05]
A
Exactly.
- [22:05]
D
But yeah, they're all bringing something different. They're international as well. It's not about only Swiss brands or French brands. We have Italian brands, American brand as well and different price points. I think the spirit is the most important part is keeping the spirit alive between all of them and also distributing the same services to all all of them. This was really important since the beginning is like you don't. It's not about who has the more who has the biggest pocket against the more services. It's really. They all have the same. I would say package. Yeah and booth for the same price. And it's really we divide, divide to conquer. And yeah the 20 brands will get the same features and it's their product that's going to shine and not necessarily the money they put on the table.
- [22:48]
A
And how does it work? I mean obviously they're paying a fee. I mean you guys are running this presume is a business. Yeah. How does that work and does everybody pay the same or do you pay a different price to have more space? How does it work?
- [23:02]
C
So the idea was to be the most equal that we could. So basically we aligned on a price that we couldn't go further and basically now it's just multiplied by 20 and we did everything that we could within that budget to make it work. And yeah even the spots because we know watches and wonders for instance it's really important who is the first one where you are. So it was did in a ad hoc way. So really it's all about being equal. There is no one that is like prefer or so on. They all paid the same. It was ad hoc. So basically everybody had the space they had. We did an online drawing and yeah it's basically.
- [23:44]
A
So it was like a lottery basically.
- [23:48]
D
And every booth is exactly identical to one another and that was really important as well since the beginning and all brands were completely aligned with the spirit. That's probably one of the elements that also convinced them to join. It's not about who pays more to get more services and more visibility. We Offer them the platform, the same for everyone, and then it's their product that's going to shine.
- [24:09]
A
Exactly. And so when people come to the fair, to the show, they will see all the brands in the exact same size booths to be fair. And they'll be able to, which is unusual, to be able to purchase watches. Will there be anything else? Any events, any talks, any refreshments?
- [24:32]
D
So it's a first and we pushed a lot with the budget. We had to have a lot of features and we invested a lot in the scenography as well. So we worked with Tom Ducarouge, which is a really up and coming stenographer based in Paris, to develop each of the stands. So they're all custom made for the event as well as the chairs and so on. So it was really important as well to have this kind of the storytelling aspect also going into the design of the space. And then in terms of things that's going to happen during the week, we have on the Thursday, the big Chrono Police party. It's going to be nice, a lot of people and it's open to the public, so if you're around, please don't hesitate to pass by. And on Friday, we have the Chrono 24 cocktail. And as well on every day we have kind of an happy hour bar offering also to for all the people coming back from Watch the Mortgers. If they want to get a beer at a cool price and a cold beer, they could get there, talk to all the people around and really have this experience, this kind of a chill experience of Chronopolis.
- [25:41]
C
Yeah. For the first edition, we really wanted to focus on what they needed and what they asked us was to have a booth to be equal and to have a space to share the novelties. So instead of going in every direction and maybe losing ourselves, we really wanted to deliver on what they asked us. And so basically we have a lot of ideas. We tried a few things to enhance the experience, but this year we were going to focus on this and grow it in the next year, hopefully, if it's a success. But Lorenzo started to mention about the partners that we have as well. So we've been lucky enough to have a few partnerships, brands and media. So it helped as well to increase the experience for the guests and all the public that are going to come.
- [26:27]
A
Yeah. And how long have you been sort of planning this and working on this? When did you decide that it was going to go forward? And then how much money is involved? How much does it cost to put on Something like this, if you can give us any kind of idea, it's
- [26:44]
D
in between three hundred and half a million, the overall budget for the overall fare. And then with this budget, we try our best to make it cool and unusual and keep the spirit alive. So as Maxim says, we've invested a lot for this first edition, so it's not the best, most interesting financial project, but it's not our goal. Our goal is to make it important and visible for the brands and then. And if we can expand the concept further next year, it would be even better. But yeah, I would say.
- [27:19]
A
When was it like this is a go?
- [27:22]
D
I think when we signed the 20 brands on before we went.
- [27:24]
C
Yeah. But we started to speak about it probably end of summer last year, so it took a bit of time, but basically we had a few brands on board straight away and then we had to find and convince the other ones. But yeah, we probably worked very hard on the project. Since September, we actually have hired someone to take care of the fair. Stefan has joined us and he's full on. On it since. Yeah, first of this September.
- [27:51]
D
Sweating every day.
- [27:52]
A
No doubt, no doubt. And so how many. So you guys, how many people have been working on this then full time?
- [27:59]
C
I would say Stefan, from working full time. Lorenzo and I are always working on all the projects. So both of us. And we have the scenography team, we have the content team as well. So probably 10 people around. 10 people? Ish.
- [28:15]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:16]
A
For. And do, you know, do you have any idea of how many people you're expecting to.
- [28:21]
D
We're targeting for this first edition, at least 1,000 people. Thousand visitors a day. We hope more. We're doing our maximum to have the space completely full every day. But it's going to be our challenge as well. So that's our target, our conservative target, I would say.
- [28:40]
A
For sure, for sure. And, you know, let's talk about sort of that cooperation, the sort of idea of establish in watching. I think, you know, a lot of people outside the industry see the big brands, they see Rolex and Bitek and AP and the others who are obviously the flagships at Watches and Wonders. But you know, this industry, and not just here in Switzerland, but in general, it's full of small little brands and, you know, talk about how those brands and those various parts of the industry, you know, sort of need to work together to get their message out.
- [29:18]
D
And that's a good point. You mentioned Switzerland. Switzerland, but it's actually really international markets. A lot of brands are not from Switzerland. In Chronopolis but also elsewhere. As soon as we announced the 20 brands, we had probably another 20 brands that wanted to join in. Unfortunately, this year we have to stay in this bracket because of the location and because of other aspect of it. But I think, yeah, there's a real market rising in these more affordable, approachable brands. Some people call it micro brands, but sometimes it's a bit pejorative or negative.
- [29:53]
A
But we're trying to use the term
- [29:54]
D
boutique brand, boutique brand, boutique. There's the maison and then the boutique. But yeah, I think they're rising. They're directly connecting with the consumers, which is more complicated for more established brand, even in the same price points. And I think they offer something different. They really understand their customers because their relationship is way tight. And yeah, I think they're bringing new ideas to the industry, pushing for crazy designs and also some technical aspect that you're going to see. At Konopolis, a few brands are launching really cool complications as well. So pretty unusual in this price point. And a lot of people were saying that this price point is going to die slowly.
- [30:41]
A
Right? I mean, that's the overarching narrative is that the watch industry is just less volume, continuously getting more expensive and exclusive. But obviously, yeah, I mean, you know, these brands are certainly in the more. You know, some other brands I can name, obviously Furlan, Mari, very popular brand with Hodinkee readers. Formex, Serica. Yeah, I mean these are brands that are. That are approachably priced for the regular person, still not cheap objects. But indeed that does go against the prevailing trend and the belief that everything is just moving more and more upscale. I mean, why, why is that important?
- [31:22]
C
Well, since the beginning when we launched Iced out, because it's really what's. What is like the spirit of vision
- [31:29]
A
with Lorenzo and Iced out is your magazine is a very cool, awesome looking magazine that you guys put out a few times a year. And I mean, yeah, talk about what that is.
- [31:39]
C
But for us you need to have the whole spectrum because if you want to reach new people, which is something that even flagship brands needs to do, you have to have the full spectrum and everybody in the scale has to do his own work. You know, sometimes you're gonna go buy your first watch because you want a Cartier or Rolex, fine, but maybe you can't afford such expensive watch and you are getting into the mechanics of the design through, as you said, Firland, Denison, even cheaper alternatives, more design led like Breda from the States. But what matters is really getting people into watches. And that's how we see it. So Chronopolis is definitely a place where it's easy. You don't. People will not look at you in a different or a weird way when you enter. And it's maybe the clients of the big brands that watches in wonders in a few months. So for us it's really an ecosystem that needs to work together. And even big brands, they take something from smaller brands getting bigger and bigger.
- [32:46]
D
Absolutely. As you say, a real ecosystem, it's kind of a spider web without these brands. Probably the bigger could stay a long time in their castle. But at a certain point it could be really dangerous also to talk to one specific audience and also getting their prices up and up. At a certain point you also kill yourself. So the system needs these levels and we need to open the doors to a wider audience. A lot of people say that watches are useless and it's probably true, but we need to make it more fun, more accessible and that's how we're going to keep the spirit alive of watchmaking auto. Otherwise it's only reserved to a really exclusive club. And I think it's a bit lacking the passion and the potential of this industry.
- [33:35]
C
And you know, competition is really also what drives everything. If you have a smaller brand that is selling a watch for less than 1,000 francs, doing certain, with certain characteristics, it's good to put it aside to a big brand and say, so what did you do more to explain the gap? You know, they're trying differently as well. Well pushing and I think it's super healthy for everybody that you have smaller players.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, no, exactly. Does it say though something that, you know, the, the flagship brands, the big brands that we see at Watches and Wonders or the other shows, are they missing out on an opportunity or are they not connecting with that, you know, younger audience or that new to watches audience? Yeah. Do they have something to learn from you guys?
- [34:22]
D
We all have something to learn from each other. But I think what's tough for these big brands is they become some, some of them became too, too big. It's really complicated to them to target and have a real human connection with their potential customers. And that's probably what's where lies the danger for these big brands. Of course they can spend a lot of money in advertising and being everywhere visually, but then how you connect with people and that's what the next generations are looking for. The real connection and feeling really appreciated and yeah, yeah, really connect with the designer, the people behind the watches in their products. So this is the challenge for these big Brands, they're trying, some of them are really success in targeting these new agencies, but others are struggling as well.
- [35:06]
A
And you know, this is what you guys do. I mean, tell me, how do you bring new people, young people into watches? Because I mean, yeah, as you say, I mean, a watch is not something that anybody needs to tell time, but there are certainly other reasons to want it, to desire it and to wear it. But you know, from the young, cool guys perspective, I mean, yeah. How do you get people into watches?
- [35:31]
C
There are probably several tricks that we use often, but magic tricks. One of the first one is probably using other universe like design or photography or art to bring people that are maybe more inclined into like design or fashion, for instance, and to work and collaborate with people that are from this world to bring them in. The second one is probably to say that it's okay not to know everything about watches because it's like a scary thing. It's like, oh, you don't get it. It's super comple. Complex subject. That's why it's expensive and so on. So we just try to demystify this. And probably the last thing is that it's a very deep culture as well. And that's why we always try to show that they are nerds, that there are so many archives, so many interesting to learn just to show them to the new people that actually, if you get into it, it's almost impossible to know anything. And so it's where the fun is. It's like you have to discover a whole world, new players, new brands, new models, new designers. It's so interesting. It's a culture on its own.
- [36:35]
D
Yeah. And sometimes we also forget the fun aspect of it all. We need to have fun, otherwise why are we doing this? Why are we collecting? Why are we getting interested into watches? There's a serious aspect that came with luxury that also is dangerous somehow. So that's why these new players are also pushing, and we are trying as well with Iced out as well, is to make it a bit more relaxed and fun and welcoming. The products are already really technical, really interesting on its own. So the communication could really be more simple, more fun, more unusual. And that's how we also target these people, like giving them a hint and then they do their trajectory in this game. But yeah, let's not take ourselves too seriously. That's important. And probably a few brands know it and others don't really know it yet. So.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah, because you guys have your hands in a lot of pies in the watch world here in Switzerland, Right. So you know, you do Iced out the magazines. You have your agency where you work with various brands and partners and now you're doing this. So talk about each one of those aspects of your work and how much time you're spending on that and what you guys together hope to contribute to the industry at the moment.
- [37:56]
C
It's a tough one. It's a multi layer question. Well, I think that I start is really what brought us together. That's actually we met through the FHH with Lorenzo. We launched the Instagram account Watches and Culture. And actually it was really how we linked because it was speaking about watches to a different audience, which is exactly what we try to do now and wanted to push it further. That's why we did Iced Out. So we had our hands completely free and we could probably go too far sometimes. So Iced out is really our spirit. That's what we. That's our bab. That's why we try to protect and we try to challenge ourselves while doing it because we are so much part of the industry now. It's like what does it mean to be iced out of ourselves as well, to have fun? The agency is how we pay our bills. Probably we try to keep a bit of the spirit of Iced out, but that's where we serve the brands and maybe listen to them a bit more, try to serve them and then Chronopolis is an extension of the agency. I'd say it's the same thing but in a different kind of channel.
- [39:07]
D
You can find some of the Iced out spirit in it. But it's of course more not commercial because it's kind of a negative word as well. But it's a bit more straightforward for the customers and less crazy than other projects that we do and for those
- [39:20]
A
who don't, who haven't maybe seen it or don't know it that well. Explain the name Iced Out. It's quite clever. It's sort of a play on someone from Switzerland or France might say, I guess Iced out when we talk about watches that are full of diamonds and bejeweled, as it were.
- [39:41]
D
Yeah, it's also a play on work with heist like a robbery. Because at the beginning we wanted to heist the communication part of the watch industry somehow and make it a bit different and steal some ideas and make it more fun and come out of this rubbery in a sense. So it's a bit of a strange, strange name that we keep it because it's part of. Of us. It's the spirit is also getting out of this. This box we all living in. In. In the watch world. Yeah. Breaking the barriers and pushing the doors as well.
- [40:16]
C
Getting out of it was also interesting because I thought it's really also the rappers that are saying this. The ice, their. Their watches, and most of the time it's done on poorly conditioned watch. So there is also a layer of people who don't understand the watch world. They just put diamonds on them and actually, maybe, maybe they were not so good before. And so there is this misunderstanding and this kind of discrepancy between the two worlds that is quite interesting to the philosophy and what we try to do with ice. Stout, indeed.
- [40:45]
A
And within your circle, I think, of you here in Geneva, I mean, what is it that brings young people and gets them interested in watches? I mean, talk about your sort of circle of colleagues and friends and how they all came. Came to this crazy world.
- [41:04]
D
Yeah, it's always the spirit and also trying to be a bit different. People want to feel a bit different, so they want to get their hands on unusual watches, watches that we don't necessarily see. That's why these design watches are already getting up in values and in recognition in this industry. So, yeah, it's also being part of a crew, being part of a community, but that's always a fine line between a community and also an exclusive club. So it's also our work to make it sure that it's always open through our events and other activities that we do. So that's always important and people want to relate to it somehow, so they want to feel different, so they want to touch other kind of products. And yeah, yeah.
- [41:51]
C
A lot of our friends are actually watch dealers, so we get to see a lot of amazing watches. And I think, me, I wasn't born here, so it's a bit different. I wasn't at all part of the watch industry. Our watches weren't even a thing in my family or in my. And when I arrived and I joined in with Lorenzo and all his friends and my friends, now there is this sense of discovering and showing new things that you found that is so exciting. It's like, oh, look what I found. I actually researched it and I found out that this. Then you meet someone from a patrimony team that will tell you, oh, actually, I've never seen this one. It shows you another one. So it's an endless cycle. That is so interesting.
- [42:29]
D
Yeah, we say it a lot, but it's not always a question of age. We're old already and I think a lot of people in the community. Community. We're trying to build our. It's not a question of age, it's more of a spirit. A lot of people are a lone wolf from the industry and they connect with us and the rest of our friends because they feel the passion behind it and they feel the no bullshit approach that we want to push forward. So this is also really important. It's not a question of age, it's more the spirit. Definitely. And of course, vintage. We would lie if we say that vintage is not important to our eyes and also to all of friends and the community we're building. It's important in iced out. Of course we're pushing for novelties and we're working with watch brands, but vintage is definitely beating in our heart and it also leads a lot of the projects we do.
- [43:27]
A
Very good, Very good. And so the show Chronopolis, chronopolis runs from April 14th to 18th at Les Art de Lille here in Geneva every day from 10am to 8pm yes, it says. Anything else we need to know about this. Best of luck.
- [43:48]
C
We'll have a little iced out surprise for you around 8ish. And really, we want people also outside from the industry, or at least people not working in the industry to be part of it. It's how it's going to get even funnier and more cooler culture.
- [44:06]
D
Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Push the doors. I mean, the door is going to be open so you don't even need to push them. Grab a BE, talk to the CEOs behind and the creators behind the watches and potentially leave with one on the wrist. So yeah, don't be afraid of getting to this crazy and stupid watch world.
- [44:25]
C
Yeah. And Alonso said it in an interview at some point, he said that go look for the watch that you think you don't like and that's how you're going to discover so many things. And like you have 20 brands, you have time, you can browse through the 20 even though you think that you don't. Yeah. And go see maybe someone that you feel like you don't like. And maybe that's how when you're going to fall in love, you know, it's.
- [44:47]
D
That's the surprise yourself. Yeah.
- [44:48]
C
Yeah.
- [44:49]
A
Excellent. Sounds like a plan. Best of luck with the show, gentlemen.
- [44:54]
D
Thank you, Andy.
- [44:54]
A
See you Maxime and Lorenzo, thanks so much. We'll see you soon.
- [44:58]
D
Thank you.
- [44:58]
C
Bye bye.
- [44:59]
D
Bye bye.
- [45:04]
A
And that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinkee.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows, we might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
- [45:30]
B
Sam.