The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae And Nash - Episode 15 - 11-13-25

Summary

Holmberg’s Morning Sickness: The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae and Nash

Episode 15 – November 17, 2025
Hosts: John Holmberg, Dale Hellestrae, Dave Nash, with Brett Vesely

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging and fast-moving episode, Holmberg, Hellestrae, and Nash deliver their signature banter and deep dives on the ever-volatile world of sports trades, NFL contenders and frauds, the value and pitfalls of general managers, and sprinkle in debates about “coolness” in NBA fundamentals, masculinity and athletic competition. With poignant (and sometimes irreverent) observations, the hosts break down recent blockbuster NBA trades, dissect the NFL’s playoff picture team-by-team, and get personal about the nature of talent evaluation on and off the field. The episode’s tone is punchy, skeptical, and loaded with memorable zingers, progressing from specific trade controversies to broad philosophical debates.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dinner with William Shatner & Celebrity Banter (01:06–03:16)

• Holmberg opens with plans for dinner and a show with William Shatner and Frank Caliendo, segueing into lighthearted jealousy and quips about Shatner’s age and reputation.
  • “Would that make you jealous? Not okay.” – John Holmberg [01:54]
  • “You disparage Bill Shatner. First of all, do you realize he's calling him Bill because him and Bill are that close?” – Dale Hellestrae [02:04]

2. Blockbuster NBA Trades & Superstar Influence (04:10–13:16)

• The team unpacks the fallout from the Lakers/Mavericks trade involving Luka Doncic and Anthony Davis, debating “worst trades” in sports history (Jabbar, Kobe, Babe Ruth, Lou Brock).
• Discussion swirls about superstar power derailing franchises and trades—“Superstars can ruin things” – Dale Hellestrae [07:10]
• Analysis of the current NBA landscape: The Suns, Rockets, and especially the Oklahoma City Thunder, lauded for their asset-rich, sustainable rebuild.
  • Notable quote: “There isn't a sports franchise being run better than the Oklahoma City Thunder.” – John Holmberg [13:36]

3. Diamondbacks & Marte Trade Speculation (16:14–19:32)

• Debate on whether Arizona should trade Ketel Marte, referencing off-field issues and potential clubhouse distractions.
• On evaluating young talent and building through the draft: “If what you have isn't working, move on quickly. Those are not the only people that can play baseball.” – Brett Vesely [18:57]

4. Worst Trades & GM Accountability in Sports (19:32–22:55)

• Revisiting the impact of the Herschel Walker and A-Rod trades; weighing GM accountability for massive moves.
• Highlighting the sometimes arbitrary path to GM appointments in the NFL (“What are the qualifications to be GM, other than just being around?” – John Holmberg [21:06])
• The importance of coach-GM synergy, with Shanahan and Lynch in San Francisco as a positive template.

5. Talent Evaluation—From Field to Front Office (25:01–33:55)

• First-hand observations about the unpredictability of draft picks and scouting, with Hellestrae recalling rookie linemen who couldn’t get into a stance and John Elway’s woes picking QBs.
• On the difference between generational talent and coaching/GM success: “Those all-timers struggle more...they just see accidents.” – John Holmberg [26:13]
• Detailed exploration of how intangible qualities (e.g., “Pat Tillman’s brain”) factor into a team’s chemistry and success [34:16].

6. Missed on Mental, Missed on Personality (33:33–37:19)

• On personality screening during the draft: “They are trained to answer the questions… It’s a job interview.”
• Insight into the unpredictable nature of transition points from high school to college, and college to pro—pitfalls everywhere.

7. Coaching Turnarounds & “Busts” Redeemed (37:19–38:22)

• The impact of good coaching on so-called “bust” quarterbacks like Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield.
• Notable: “Awfully hard to be a bust and then come back and be an MVP. Kurt Warner’s a great example...” – John Holmberg [38:12]

8. NFL Fraud or Contender? Team-by-Team Rundown

(Main segment: 39:29–75:59, timestamps per major team/segment)

NFC East/Eagles: [41:07–43:43]

• The Eagles are scrutinized as potential “frauds” despite their record:
  • “Teams that have been there...You can’t count them out.” – Brett Vesely [43:12]
  • Their “brotherly shove” play is dissected as a unique weapon but worries emerge about RB health.

NFC North: [45:03–51:46]

• Packers, Bears, Vikings, Lions—debate on who is “for real.”
  • “They’re not winning games like, oh, that's a walk away.” – John Holmberg [49:36]
  • “I'm going with Goff...with one eye closed.” – Brett Vesely (QB trust) [50:49]

NFC South & West: [51:16–56:22]

• Skepticism about Buccaneers/Panthers as real threats; more faith placed in Rams (Stafford/McVay) than Seahawks (Darnold/McDonald).

Redheaded Quarterbacks—Comic Interlude [57:34–59:06]

• John’s playful “guarantee”: “There will never ever be a redheaded world champion quarterback.” [57:50]

AFC East: [59:38–66:19]

• The Bills as “frauds”—inconsistent and Josh Allen dependent.
• Patriots praised for their resurgence—“I think the Patriots are back.” – John Holmberg [63:55]

AFC North: [66:20–68:59]

• Steelers labeled as “fraud” (again) despite predictable Tomlin-coached records; Ravens seen as division favorites but with holes.

AFC South: [67:43–70:07]

• Colts described as overachievers, with skepticism about their real “bite.”

AFC West: [70:09–75:59]

• Broncos labeled the “largest fraud” in football: “That record is Tim Tebow years. Like, how are you winning like this?” – John Holmberg [70:28]
• Chiefs, though sitting at 5-4, still considered the scariest team in the AFC: “With Patrick Mahomes, all bets are off.” – Dale Hellestrae [73:53]

9. MLB Gambling Scandal News Brief [76:31–77:46]

• The emerging FBI investigation into Guardians pitchers fixing games for bets is discussed, with the hosts marveling at the ongoing “fixability” of baseball and the likely crackdown on prop bets.

10. IOC Bans Trans Athletes from Olympics [77:58–81:37]

• Hosts react to breaking news that the IOC has banned trans women from Olympic competition.
  • “This was never a debate and it became one and I still don't know how. So it's good. I didn't know that the IOC has, has pulled off and said, look, we gotta stop this.” – John Holmberg [78:53]
• Discussion turns to biological differences in sport, with personal anecdotes underscoring physical disparities.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Luka trade fallout:
  “Superstars can ruin trades, they can ruin your plans.” – Dale Hellestrae [07:10]

• On Oklahoma City Thunder management:
  “At this very moment, there isn't a sports franchise being run better than the Oklahoma City Thunder.” – John Holmberg [13:36]

• On “Pat Tillman’s brain” in the NFL:
  “Give me 53 Pat Tillmans, give me those attitudes. I want guys...I'll be comfortable going to war on Sunday every day.” – Brett Vesely [34:16]

• On redheaded QBs:
  “There will never ever be a redheaded world champion quarterback in football.” – John Holmberg [57:50]

• On Bills' inconsistency:
  “If Josh Allen isn't perfect, they don't win.” – John Holmberg [59:53]

• On Sean Payton & Broncos:
  “That record is Tim Tebow years. Like, how are you winning like this?” – John Holmberg [70:28]

• On the NFL playoff landscape:
  “Who was the real fraud?” – John Holmberg [76:21]

• On IOC ban:
  “This was never a debate and it became one and I still don't know how.” – John Holmberg [78:53]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:06 – Show start, Shatner banter
• 04:10 – NBA trade fallout, Luka/Anthony Davis trade
• 07:10 – The negative impact of superstars on trades (Hellestrae)
• 13:36 – Praise for Oklahoma City Thunder management
• 16:14 – Marte trade and Diamondbacks’ outlook
• 19:32 – Worst sports trades, GM pressure
• 25:01 – Evaluating talent, surprises/disappointments in scouting
• 34:16 – Pat Tillman’s brain and team mentality
• 37:19 – Coaching redemptions: Darnold/Mayfield
• 39:29 – The “fraud/contender” playoff breakdown segment starts
• 43:00 – Eagles analysis: contender or fraud?
• 47:00 – Packers offensive confusion
• 53:09 – NFC West: Rams vs Seahawks trust factor
• 57:50 – The “redheaded quarterback” theory
• 59:38 – Bills as frauds, AFC East breakdown
• 62:47 – Mike Vrabel and blue collar Patriots
• 63:55 – Patriots resurgence
• 70:09 – Broncos: largest fraud in AFC west?
• 73:53 – Chiefs “scariest” team despite standing
• 76:31 – MLB Guardians gambling bust
• 77:58 – IOC bans trans athletes from the Olympics

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Summary Takeaways

• The hosts deliver insightful but skeptical breakdowns of major NBA and NFL developments, often circling back to how front office decision-making, luck, and basic team chemistry matter more than analytics suggest.
• The “fraud or contender” theme provides a useful, entertaining lens to dissect the NFL landscape with plenty of humor, “gut feeling” diagnostics, and honest ex-player insight.
• The episode is laced with memorable one-liners, lived-in sports wisdom, and a healthy suspicion of hype and narrative, making it both highly informative and deeply entertaining for diehard and casual fans alike.

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Transcript

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[Brett Vesely]

Hey, it's Brett Vesely and I'm here with Byron from MMP Guns. Look, Byron, I have a friend wanting to sell some guns he inherited. What's the best way for him to do that?

[John Holmberg]

Brett, the last thing you want to do is sell the gun to someone.

[Dale Hellray]

Who can't legally own one.

[Brett Vesely]

Tell him not to put himself at.

[John Holmberg]

Risk and come into MMP Guns where he'll get a fair offer and he.

[Dale Hellray]

Can rest easy knowing it's not getting into the wrong hands.

[Brett Vesely]

Okay, but what if he lives out of state?

[John Holmberg]

Easy. Legalgunbuyer.com and he can do it all online.

[Brett Vesely]

It's really that simple.

[John Holmberg]

There you have it.

[Brett Vesely]

MMP Guns or legalgunbuyer.com the safe and legal way to sell your arms.

[John Holmberg]

And away we go for yet another episode of this sports thing, also known as that sports thing, also known as the John Hombreg podcast, with permanent guest Dale Hellray and the rest. Today, the rest are filled in by the usual rest, which is entrepreneur and former radio media host Dave Nash. I'm John Holmberg from the wildly successful 98 KUPD morning sickness. There's Dale, three time world champion. And there's Dave. We're all in our places. We're ready to go. Let's get right to it. I'm very busy today. I have to go hang out with Bill Shatner tonight. Me and Bill have dinner plans and then Bill and I are gonna do a little show over there at the Orpheum Theater downtown Phoenix. And then Bill and I will probably hang out a little after, maybe a little bit after that. Bill Shatner, I say, are you trying.

[Brett Vesely]

To make me jealous?

[John Holmberg]

Would that make you jealous? Not okay.

[Brett Vesely]

In the.

[John Holmberg]

As a matter of fact, wait a minute.

[Brett Vesely]

There's a lot of things I dare.

[John Holmberg]

You disparage Bill Shatner.

[Dale Hellray]

First of all, do you realize he's calling him Bill because him and Bill are that Close.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, allegedly.

[Dale Hellray]

William? Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, what's wrong with hanging out with William? Bill Shatner.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm trying to think of things that I'd rather 94 years old than that come up with.

[John Holmberg]

He's a great storyteller. He does a great one man show.

[Dale Hellray]

You have to feed him.

[John Holmberg]

No, he's. They're feeding me.

[Dale Hellray]

No, I mean, do you have to like.

[John Holmberg]

No, he's personally fully capable of eating. It's great.

[Dale Hellray]

Okay, how we go to dinner?

[John Holmberg]

Well, we go down to the orpheum and then Mr. Shatner will have dinner brought in for us.

[Dale Hellray]

Really?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And he chose a place called Thai Basil Tonight. So we're having dinner.

[Brett Vesely]

Thai Basil's great.

[John Holmberg]

Here's a great spot. So I got the menu, I ordered.

[Brett Vesely]

It's a regular for me.

[Dale Hellray]

It is? Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Irregular or regular?

[Brett Vesely]

Regular.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, it makes you regular or.

[Brett Vesely]

No, it's, it's really good. They do a good job there.

[John Holmberg]

They do. Very nice.

[Brett Vesely]

They're kind of franchised, so each one is a little different. But great takeout food.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's what we got. So we're doing that and I have dinner, dinner with Bill and, and Frank Caliendo is going to be there with us as well. And then we're going to watch the Wrath of Khan. They do that. Then the Trekkie people sit in this theater. And then afterwards he does a Q and A with the audience and tells.

[Dale Hellray]

Some stories and stuff.

[John Holmberg]

It's fun. Why are you acting like this is a bad thing?

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, I'm trying.

[John Holmberg]

Let me, let me guess. He's a Satanist.

[Brett Vesely]

No. No.

[John Holmberg]

What?

[Brett Vesely]

No. Well, I mean, he's an elitist, is he? I don't know. What, I don't know how far he falls in regards to the Satan.

[John Holmberg]

What is the elitist? What is that? What qualifies you?

[Brett Vesely]

If you're in Hollywood.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

And you're a big wheel in Hollywood.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

You're kind of toeing the line.

[John Holmberg]

Okay, you're toeing the line. So he's in.

[Brett Vesely]

Who's toeing the line?

[John Holmberg]

Some dangerous stuff.

[Brett Vesely]

That. Dangerous stuff. It's, it's, it's, it's anti American propaganda that, that they push on us, Captain Kirk. Well, Hollywood per se. So I, I haven't seen Booker, I haven't studied him. I don't. Hey, listen, find out, find out how he got away with murdering his wife.

[John Holmberg]

All right, that's enough. He does talk about that.

[Brett Vesely]

No, I bet off air is like, wow, I can't believe I got away with that one.

[John Holmberg]

Well, I will Ask him. But most people love hearing that question. During tonight's fun Q A, be sure to bring up that insanity.

[Dale Hellray]

But that's fine. I like the reporter asking Luca Dante will ever go back and play for the Mavericks.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, D. See how Dale wanted to transition right into sports out of your lunacy. And he's right. The Lakers played last night and got trounced.

[Dale Hellray]

Did they?

[John Holmberg]

Well, they were there. They observed a game or they observed another team practicing. Oklahoma City. Just they're wiping people out. And they went in there and took care of business on the Lakers. And then after the game, in his postgame presser, still in the Lakers 77. The Dale and I just watched this before the show started. One of the press guys says, how do you feel about Nico Harrison? The Mavs GM just got fired. Right. And they're now calling it the worst trade in the history of at least the NBA. Maybe sports. I'm not going to go that far. Bad trade.

[Brett Vesely]

There's been a lot of.

[John Holmberg]

There's been a lot of bad trades.

[Brett Vesely]

What did. What did Milwaukee, the Milwaukee Bucks get for Kareem Abdul Jabbar?

[John Holmberg]

That's a great question.

[Brett Vesely]

What did Charlotte get for Kobe Bryant?

[John Holmberg]

Well, they. Kobe Bryant got Vladi Divac. That was the one that, to me, proved that they fixed trades. And the Luca thing didn't surprise me because the Lakers needed a cornerstone for a decade. LeBron's about to be done, and they have not done a good job getting a new superstar there. So that trade was NBA influence. To me, less Nico Harrison than it was the NBA saying, we got to load up la. This doesn't look good.

[Brett Vesely]

What did Boston Red Sox get for Babe Ruth?

[John Holmberg]

Well, it was a money thing. They were going broke. But the bigger one is Lou Brock. The Cubs had Lou Brock, if you remember that, and traded them for three guys you've never heard of and stayed that way. There's a lot of trades of like, oh my God, what in the world was that? But the big ones are the. Are the superstar for superstar when one of them just doesn't work out. And Anthony Davis for Luka Donchi.

[Dale Hellray]

Close.

[John Holmberg]

I'll give you.

[Brett Vesely]

I'll give you the fact that he's hurt right now. If he comes back and they actually. He actually can produce for them.

[John Holmberg]

Anthony Davis.

[Brett Vesely]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Problem is he's 28 games a year. When he does play, he's great, but he cannot stay healthy. Zion Williamson's another.

[Dale Hellray]

I wouldn't be surprised if. Whether it was NBA influenced or owner influenced, we don't want to pay this overweight guy that shows up out of shape, every train gap, $300 million. So let's. Let's go ahead and move them. You're. It's going to be your. You're taking the. The. The blame or you're getting the credit for it. And when it didn't work out, now we can let you go.

[Brett Vesely]

I subbed in for his sports little. You know, his little thing over at the main event. Yeah, and the main event, and we talked about that.

[Dale Hellray]

And.

[Brett Vesely]

And my problem was not trading him because he might be a fat, overweight slob. But. But what. What did you get for him? I mean, you don't think you could have got more.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

I mean, Anthony Davis, fine player, all star, great defensive player, all pro, but like you said, it's great for half the year. The other half, he's hurt.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, and the other thing about that, in that particular situation, Johnny, we can move wherever you want to. But the fact is, in basketball, superstars can ruin things.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

They can ruin trades, they can ruin your plans. They can ruin a bunch of. And so I think that they tried to keep it under wraps, talk to one team, because also, you start talking to two teams, and the one team goes to the media, and now the word gets out there and Luca finds out, whatever. I think that's why they probably didn't get as much that they just put them out there for open bidding.

[John Holmberg]

That was the crazy part, is hearing I talked to Jay Moore, the comedian whose wife now, Jeannie Buss, was running the team, and I said, how did that go down? And he basically said, got a call for a trade. And we're thinking, what are they offering? Like, well, we're not really interested. And they're like, what about Luca? And they're like, luca's on the table. Yeah, what do you want? And it was basically one of those things. It was like they were shocked when the thing came through, like, they're not serious about this, are they? And they were. And so I. Yeah. Superstars can absolutely wreck something. Can absolutely wreck something. In this particular case, Kevin Durant in Phoenix, Kevin Durant in Houston. So far, really, 12 games.

[Dale Hellray]

Kevin Durant, by wanting to go to Houston. Yeah. Really hamstrung. The Suns. Couldn't get what huge as.

[Brett Vesely]

What does he care about the sun?

[John Holmberg]

But what does he care about anything? But what he's doing is hamstrung two teams. In that case, because you're right, the Suns were, like, forced to take that trade. Basically said, it's the Only one I go to and he goes to Houston and brings the Kevin Durant game. When Sengun is their best player. It is not even close right now. I mean, Kevin Durant needs to recognize he's a number two on that team in a. There's a big gap between the two. If you watch and for some reason. And the coach in Houston. I forgot his last name. It used to be in Boston. He's there now. He coached him before. That's the cry. But he, he coached him before. So you thought maybe it would be a good relationship to go, okay, this is how we're going to work it.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

We turned right back into the Suns down there in Houston. They're. They're posting Kevin up at 26ft like he's standing outside the three point line with his arm in the air. Like you're posting outside or on the three point line. So you're right. Superstars came in and took a team that was number two in the west last year.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes. And, and young and exciting and energetic and took them.

[John Holmberg]

And I, I, you know, it's a.

[Dale Hellray]

Good swing, you know. And we're going to come back to the Suns on this because obviously Kevin Durant went there. They're struggling. The Suns. We talked about on your wildly popular.

[John Holmberg]

So successful.

[Dale Hellray]

They're so much more fun to watch.

[John Holmberg]

Oh my God.

[Dale Hellray]

Than they were the last two years.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And yet their best player that they got in that Trade, who's played 82 games. 82 games the last two seasons. Yeah. Has now played one game and one quarter for the look good doing it. And he's going to be out till Christmas. And that just goes back to John. We can't have good things.

[John Holmberg]

Stop saying change the name of this podcast. We can't have good things. But going back to the Luca thing and the, and Nico. So they got the luckiest bounce in the lottery ever. Dallas. Did they trade away Luka Doncic? The GM is going to take the hit for that.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Jason Kidd is not. Bottom line is when they, when they got the first draft pick and got Cooper flag and stuff, you had to sit back and say, all right, he's going to get the right picks. We're going to get this in place. You thought his job was safe. You thought it should be safe. If they're going to fire him 11 games into the season, you were going to fire him anyway.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

That's not like information that just happened. Like, we can't, we can't survive this. The team's still injured. They're banged up beyond belief and he makes that trade and now they just. I think this was a save face firing.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, I think it's because your fan base absolutely went haywire against the franchise when they did. I think that they, they somehow some way made themselves feel like it's not. It'll be, it'll be bad for a week or two. Right. But it's not going to carry on to the end of the season, off season and now into this season and.

[John Holmberg]

Full circle back to that reporter last night who actually asked Luka Doncic in the Lakers uniform, would you ever play for the Mavericks again? And he even looked like, come on, what are you talking about? Like, I don't know, I'm a Laker now, maybe.

[Dale Hellray]

Look at my beach box.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And he looks great. So you kind of have to look at it like if you're the GM of the Mavericks, everybody's bashing the guy.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You got a nice haul in that. If it stays healthy. You had a young, talented team. You're not going to pay Luca, what you thought. It's a weird trade, for sure, but not terrible on paper until you look at the outside edges, which are these guys can't stay healthy. This is a team that needed Luca, evidently. And they weren't going to win any championships either, by the way. They were just going to have some exciting, fun games. Luca was not bringing you a championship.

[Dale Hellray]

He took Western Conference finals on that.

[John Holmberg]

On that roster they traded last year. They were not going to go anywhere.

[Dale Hellray]

But here's the whole thing. And I again, when it happened, I understood the, the what pickle they were in. Yeah. Because here's a dude who for whatever, five, six years now, however long he's been in league, shows up out of shape. Yep. Works itself into shape maybe halfway through the season. And now you're talking about, oh, I'm going to give you $300 million and that's going to spur you on to work harder.

[John Holmberg]

Or, yeah, you let somebody else pay that bill and get a couple guys and they, I, I, I, and then you end up with the number one pick and that's fine. But firing Nico, Everybody hates him. He's the enemy. It's the worst trade in the history of basketball. Blah, blah, blah. I just looked. Kareem Abdul Jabar was traded for Elmore Smith, David Myers, Brian Winters and Junior Bridgman. So maybe there was a worse trade. I mean, just on names alone, Bridgman. Some of those guys could have been okay, but they weren't Lou else.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And I don't even know.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, and that might have been a mandated NBA thing too. You go from Milwaukee to Los Angeles.

[John Holmberg]

That'S exactly what it.

[Brett Vesely]

That's, that's what.

[John Holmberg]

The NBA's been doing this for years. You get stuck in these small towns, the next thing you know you start showing a little promise like, we got to get you out of here. Milwaukee.

[Dale Hellray]

Which is why. Well, what's the NBA going to do about Oklahoma City? Because they're going to be around for a while.

[John Holmberg]

They're going to be there for a while. And that has to be like SGA was in la. Yeah, he was a Clipper first.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody saw this going. They all knew he was going to be really good. But not this. Well, not on a franchise mvp. And I mean, at this very moment, there isn't a sports franchise being run better than the Oklahoma City Thunder.

[Dale Hellray]

How many? You looked it up.

[John Holmberg]

How many? 17 picks in the next three years they have 17 picks and like 30. Something from two years ago to 20, 31.

[Dale Hellray]

And honestly they're not gonna be able to keep all those. So what are they gonna do?

[John Holmberg]

They trade good players, they move number ones in the future. Never ends. Yeah, it's exactly 20, 30 years from now.

[Brett Vesely]

They have 75. First round, they'll have them all.

[John Holmberg]

If you don't bang out a dumb trade and give half of those away. And then you don't have to pay the third and fourth guys.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Because you can draft back. I mean this team is on a. This is a. It's a perpetual motion machine the way they've got it running and nobody's figured that out. Everybody keeps trying to buy a team, man, you can't do it.

[Dale Hellray]

But they're killing everybody right now and they still don't have their second best player back.

[John Holmberg]

And here's the fun of the Oklahoma City Thunder. They went in last night and beats a tar out of the Lakers. Just beat them into the ground afterwards. Everybody's like, oh, the Luca trade. What's Dallas gonna like? Are you not paying attention? Dallas wasn't going to beat that team. The Lakers weren't going to beat that team. No matter who's on the court.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

That team's better than everybody out there. And then they're going to get better. They probably got the championship a year early.

[Dale Hellray]

Oh, I don't think anybody thought last year was be their championship.

[John Holmberg]

Two years ago when they were the number one or number two seed, I don't remember. And they went into the playoffs. Everybody's like, they're Too young. They're not going to get it. And they were. They were way ahead of schedule there. And then last year, they win it all. And you're like, all right, this isn't going to end until someone does something magical. And I think most GMs and most owners will try to buy a team to beat them. And it's going to keep going. It's going to be worse and worse and worse.

[Brett Vesely]

So it's exciting how many people live in that.

[John Holmberg]

That city, Oklahoma City, maybe a million, million and a half.

[Brett Vesely]

So the 200,000 fans that are there, they just. They're having a great time.

[John Holmberg]

Best time ever.

[Brett Vesely]

And. And the hundred million fans throughout the rest of the country really are not.

[John Holmberg]

Having a good time. And the sad thing is, if you watch basketball and you. That's about as good as it gets. What those guys are doing are inside out. They've got threes, they've. I mean, SGA is amazing at getting to the basket. He's unreal. And getting those foul shots that are just. Man, the guy's magic.

[Dale Hellray]

But.

[John Holmberg]

And they can get injuries. They're deep. That's a team that you should watch, but nobody's going to. It's very regional. It's very much Oklahoma City. Who cares?

[Brett Vesely]

You know, I've never really seen anyone wear a Oklahoma City.

[John Holmberg]

The okc.

[Dale Hellray]

You will. Will I?

[John Holmberg]

It won't be a lot, but you will.

[Brett Vesely]

It's going to be like you as a Pittsburgh fan. Everyone's going to jump on board a bandwagon, losers and all. And the 30 years from now, there'll be Oklahoma City fans everywhere.

[John Holmberg]

Very true.

[Dale Hellray]

Hey, we're talking trade. I know we're getting football and all that stuff, but real quick, just a little snippet on a trade. If you're the Arizona Diamondbacks, would you entertain trading Cattel Marte? Oh, his name's come up. His names come up just a little bit. I said in the season when he.

[John Holmberg]

Bailed on a team that was making a playoff run.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes. That was two years ago. He took a day or two off in the last week because he's to prepare for the playoffs that they never made. And then the day, the Sunday before the All Star Game, he took that day off so he'd be ready to play in the All Star Game. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

He takes personal days personally.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And you brought up, you know, he had that incident last year that's still unexplained, where he started crying on the field and left and they blamed a fan for heckling him about his mother. At the same time, though, I can't imagine that there was something more was going on. You can ignore a stranger in the, in the crowd saying crass, dark things. Most guys would just get mad.

[Brett Vesely]

Maybe that was his father in the state.

[John Holmberg]

Maybe. But I mean, think about it. I mean, I can have the worst thing in my life. Get me? You two can hurt my feelings because I know you. But some guy just running by going like, you know, you just immediately give him the F you and walk away. Like, who the hell was that guy? It's not going to bother you. He broke down in tears. Well, he did. And had to leave the game.

[Dale Hellray]

And then after the All Star game, remember his house got broken into.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

But he had a planned vacation that he didn't tell the team about. Yeah. So he had to go three games back to.

[John Holmberg]

Was it the Dominican Republic? Yeah. It was a very weird thing. And I don't, I think tell Marte is great. That was a head scratching, like three weeks of like, what is going on in this dude's world?

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And, and so, yeah, in a weird way, I, you said it last year while it was going on. Right before the trade deadline. He can go.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And it's not a bad idea. Look, the Diamondbacks roster to get into baseball, they're not going to win anything.

[Dale Hellray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

They've got some fun pieces, but they're not going to win anything like that.

[Dale Hellray]

Their stud pitcher is not going to be back next year.

[John Holmberg]

They got Gurriel, they've got Marte, they've got Corbin. They've got a couple other nice parts, but you could get three players, maybe a couple of guys off Marte. That would be nice and fun to have.

[Brett Vesely]

You just say that you, you, you build from within the draft.

[John Holmberg]

That is building from within.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, I don't know what they have coming up in the minor league system, but really I'm a believer that again, as an ex minor leaguer, I, I've seen a lot of guys that were just studs. I've seen guys that make it.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

I've seen guys that didn't. And as someone who saw them on a, on, on a very up close personal basis, you couldn't, if, if I, if I told a regular fan to go out there and tell me who are the guys are going to make and who aren't without their names on the back of their jerseys, you wouldn't be able to tell. Yeah, there's plenty of guys out there that can play.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[Brett Vesely]

Bring them up, let's go. If if what you have isn't working, move on quickly. Those are not the only people that can play baseball. No, they're not.

[John Holmberg]

I agree with that completely. And that's the Kettle Marte thing, is if you traded and got three young guys, you start to shore up your farm system and everything else. It works differently in baseball because your trades don't have to be immediate plug and play guys. They can be, you know, farmed, and then even those guys can turn into a couple other people. And so you can build that way. And I think that's what Diamondbacks need to do for sure. A lot of teams do. But you start talking about sports trades and you get into, like, what's the worst ones you can think of? And, you know, some people lean on that Herschel Walker thing.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Or even the Micah Parsons deal that Dallas just did. Dallas is almost always the epicenter of the world's worst trades.

[Dale Hellray]

But see, but the thing about the Hershey Walker trade that's so fascinating to me is when it went down, it was the Cowboys who got fleeced. Oh, how on earth could you make this trade? Herschel Walker, he's your only play. Well, he was the Cowboys only player.

[John Holmberg]

They were going.

[Dale Hellray]

They're going to go 1 and 15 or 2 and 14 with him.

[John Holmberg]

It doesn't make sense to me to hang on to those guys. And then, of course, the brilliance of that trade is if those guys that you traded them for weren't on the roster, you got four more picks. Yes. Then it was a ton of guys off of that. So. And Dallas has had that, too. And you go back to the Rangers in Texas when they made the move to sign a rod to $25 million a year, which now is cheap.

[Dale Hellray]

But back then, what are you doing?

[John Holmberg]

You don't have anyone else on this team. So guys traded to get a superstar and hope that, you know, everybody else rose up to his level. The Rangers were good, but they didn't ever blow up the way you thought. There's so many trades that happen and so many guys to get fired for it. And I look at Nico, I don't think he was qualified to be GM anyway. He was friends of friends who kind of got the gig in the first place. And it makes me kind of wonder how often that happens. Like, what is a general manager in sports?

[Dale Hellray]

Well, obviously, because he's not making the. He's not making this move on his own.

[John Holmberg]

No, he's.

[Dale Hellray]

This is an ownership that got signed off.

[John Holmberg]

Absolutely. It got. Yeah, I think it got manipulated and signed off yeah, yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Because he's not just. The owners aren't waking up on Wednesday morning going, you did what last night?

[John Holmberg]

Well, that's. To me, I watch guys who get the jobs. John lynch, what are the qualifications to BGM other than just being around?

[Dale Hellray]

Well, he was. Yeah, he was a player and an announcer. Right.

[John Holmberg]

And a lot of guys are just analytics superstars.

[Dale Hellray]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. John lynch was an announcer. Mike Mayock. Mike Mayock was a great scout. He's around the team and they're like, well, let's just plug him in and see. It sort of is almost the imposter complex right in front of you of saying, this guy's been around the team for a long time. I think he knows us. You know, it's just. You're really hoping that your general manager gets it because a lot of these dudes just come and go and you're like, you never hear from them again.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, the most, the most important thing for a general manager is for him and the head coach to be on the same page.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And I think that's why San Francisco has been pretty darn successful over the last five, six years, because head coach Shanahan and Lynch are on the same page. Same player, wants the same kind of player and all that kind of stuff.

[John Holmberg]

You have to have that because if you've got a GM and a coach that aren't on the same, they're not in lock step.

[Dale Hellray]

It is like Bill Parcell's famously said, hey, I want to go shopping. Yeah. Don't just hand me the grocer.

[John Holmberg]

If I'm. If I'm going to do the cooking, let me have the grocery list. Because. Yeah, and it's true. It's like, when. And that's not working in Dallas. Their GM situation with the coaching is like, always juggle. You need a. You need a symbiosis there. That's just not going to work out. I know it's a good one, but you have it in certain.

[Dale Hellray]

Dave's still catching up.

[Brett Vesely]

He'll get it.

[John Holmberg]

He'll be all right. I'm looking up the meaning of that symbiosis. You'll be all right. But yeah, it's. I look at these trades and I always think it's unfairly placed onto a gm. And also, you know, James Jones, executive of the year for the Suns four years ago, fired sort of and just placed into a different position three years later. Right. And you look at his track record and it's like, man, did you get lucky once?

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And then every move you made after.

[Dale Hellray]

That was bad because I promise you, he didn't do the Kevin Durant deal on his own.

[John Holmberg]

It was. A new owner came in and said, let's take a big hack here.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Because the Mavericks knocked us out of the playoffs last year in an ugly fashion. And I'm looking right at that. We're staring at the same mirror again. I deal with my Steelers, I look at my Steelers right now and I'm like, you guys are in purgatory. This wheel spins in the mud more and more and more because you guys are trying to dig out of nine and eight seasons with mid level draft picks and you can't trade up and you can't do anything. You're stuck. And teams get stuck and GMs get blamed, but their success is their problem because it's not enough. It's just enough to keep you relevant.

[Brett Vesely]

So what would you rather do? Win the super bowl and then go through 10 years of misery or would you rather be Pittsburgh that is in the mix every year?

[John Holmberg]

I talk about this with my Steeler friends all the time. And as much as we're miserable at 10 and seven seasons, getting bounced in the first round, I mean, they're talking about firing coaches, GMs, these guys, the Rooneys need to sell all this other stuff. And I'm like, would you rather have us try 3 and 3 and 13, 14 and then hope that those drafts hit or we are in this other cycle of never digging out of this like the Cleveland Browns, like all these teams are like, I got the jets, I got 55 draft picks, but I'll never dig out if I don't hit them right on time. And plus, if you do hit, when you go through that, you're looking at that downward cycle again. You got to get. The Bengals are in it. They hit Joe Burrow hit. They get to the super bowl, didn't win it. And then the money started to have to get paid and they're on the downward trend now. They're going to have to either get rid of Burrow or pay the three guys that they've got and hope to piecemeal a team together in Cincinnati. That does it. It ain't easy. And they just let guys who I was a safety for a while. I've been around the team, just lifers in football. Dale, you could probably do it. Had you stuck around, you'd be like, I can do this because I can evaluate talent and understand so long as I have a guy who's doing the math on the salary cap. And most teams do now have a guru for that. It's really kind of a thing where GMs get too much credit and too much blame.

[Brett Vesely]

So I always felt when I played I saw guys and I could see the ability or I wouldn't. Dale, you in football, couldn't you just when you, when guys got on the field with you in practice or whatever, you just saw if they had it or they didn't.

[Dale Hellray]

Dave, David and John, it's absolutely astounding to me because we had, we would have second round offensive lineman, draft picks come in and not really know how to get into a stance. I'm like, how the hell were you all Big Ten or how were you all sec? Yeah. And you're getting into a stance like that.

[John Holmberg]

And how did the scouts miss that?

[Dale Hellray]

That. That's what I'm saying.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Now again, I think like you, there's some guys that, oh, you know, their rookie year, they are really behind the eight ball, but they develop, they mature, they get stronger, whatever. And I might, might have missed on those guys. But when you sit there and look at just the stuff that jumps out at you. Yeah, but then again, I look at John Elway. If you're telling me John Elway, one of the greatest quarterbacks ever play wherever you're going to place him. Yeah, he's going to be a top 10 or whatever. He couldn't pick a quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

No.

[Dale Hellray]

How on earth could you not? You're an all timer.

[John Holmberg]

Well, I think those all timers struggle more with that than anybody else because they see things like, oh, he see, he gets it and they'll see the great happen every 10th play and go. If we could just harness that, he'll be great. He'll be really. And they just see accidents. Magic Johnson, coach in the Lakers was a disaster because he's like, don't you see what I see? Like this game's and these guys, nobody sees what you see. You're a different breed. You can't teach us what you do. It's Brett Veseley from homework's morning Sickness.

[Brett Vesely]

Now, I've always been the kind of.

[John Holmberg]

Guy that takes care of my own lawn.

[Brett Vesely]

That's until I found Divine Design Landscaping. These guys aren't your typical mow and blow landscaping company. They do amazing work. And that's just what I needed to finally throw on the towel and let.

[John Holmberg]

The experts take over.

[Brett Vesely]

If you've been unhappy with your landscaping.

[John Holmberg]

Or sick of trying to do it.

[Brett Vesely]

Yourself, well, it's time to get a hold of Divine Design Landscaping. These guys handle everything.

[John Holmberg]

Lawn care irrigation, tree work, low voltage.

[Brett Vesely]

Lighting, 3D designs get a free quote at DivineDesign lawn care.com that's DivineDesignLawnCare.com it's.

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[John Holmberg]

Why Larry Bird is a coach in Indiana was so remarkable.

[Brett Vesely]

We agree.

[John Holmberg]

Because he was so good. Yeah, because he was a fundamental guy.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, because that's how. That's how he got to be at all time or was. He's fundamental but he wasn't gifted.

[John Holmberg]

But he was equally as, maybe not athletically, equally as good at seeing things no one else saw as Magic Johnson. Magic Johnson could do things no one could do and see what no one could see.

[Dale Hellray]

I bet you if you went back and you asked them honestly in dark rooms and choosing how much Larry Bird practiced and had to work on his skills versus how much Magic Johnson had to A lot of magic was natural.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And a lot of what Larry had was worked off. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Well. And being 610 and developing a shot no one had really done before. So he did work on some things. The thing about magic is like Michael Irvin, he was already that good and already had the gift and he still worked.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

They put in the equal amount that a guy like Larry Bird did and it's like Jesus, each year he would.

[Dale Hellray]

Come back, he was a not a good shooter when he came out of the league by year three pretty damn good mid range. Really good.

[John Holmberg]

You know, develops that little sky hooks like Kareem gets points off this. I'm doing that too. That guy worked and worked and Worked and worked with the 100% ability.

[Dale Hellray]

Since you brought that up, why has nobody, and I mean nobody, ever tried to develop the hook shot?

[John Holmberg]

I look at Wembanyama and I'm like, why is no one saying, hey, get this guy.

[Dale Hellray]

You can't block it.

[John Holmberg]

No. And it doesn't have to be the sky hook.

[Brett Vesely]

He could chew a leg layup.

[John Holmberg]

That's the thing. Like, if he. Like that's gone too.

[Dale Hellray]

The.

[John Holmberg]

The fade away. The. The turnaround fade away by centers Hakeem Olajwan. But post up's gone.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So it doesn't. Like there's no post up game to make a hook shot. Like he's not down in the block.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, I guess you can develop it, but there's got to be natural about it. Think about Adrian Dantley. Six foot five, nothing.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Who lived under the basket.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

And made everyone look sick. I don't know how you teach that.

[John Holmberg]

Charles Barkley.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Same time. Although he was. Is wider than he was big, but he was short.

[John Holmberg]

And you never knocked Charles shots. And they'd put him on Elijah 1. They'd put him on bigs. Just be like, you're not moving him, so let's just hope they don't shoot over him. And he would make life miserable for those guys. Yeah, there's that. There's a. It's a. It's a factor of trying to figure out who's what and where mentally. Like, you can put an Adrian Dantley. You can put a Charles Barkley down there with those big guys. You can't see that on tape or through a few games at Duke. Be like, this guy's got that mentality to be down the. Colin Gillespie. No one saw it. The sun's got this guy running all over the court and he's like, get him in there. And he's a spark plug. And he actually gets things done. He's putting eight, nine points on the board, which isn't wildly impressive, but he shouldn't even be in the league.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And it's just amazing.

[Dale Hellray]

Let me tell you one other reason just dropped in my mind why I don't think the hook. Hook shot has been reincarnated. It's not. Doesn't look cool. It doesn't look cool. Just like Rick Barry shooting underhand free throws. Greatest free throw shooter in NBA history.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And nobody's going to emulate that because it doesn't look cool. Just like a bank shot. People will not shoot a bank shot. Although the percentage goes way, way up when you're on the side of the basket or 45. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You shoot the bank. Yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you're within 15ft, pull the switch. No swish is awesome. There's truth to that. If you're knocking those down. I mean that's why Chris Paul was so great. He was unafraid to get to that little elbow and fire in the bank if he needed to. Or just. He was, he was magic from mid. But yeah, you just. There's so many things that I look at and I'm like, scouts, miss fans aren't.

[Dale Hellray]

Aren't.

[John Holmberg]

This sounds crazy from a fan's perspective. We're not that far off a lot of the times with our analysis of the game. There's a lot of guys you'll sit that follow games closely that are. Are in the ballpark of what a GM would do. I think the rationale of firings and doing things knee jerk or where the difference is you can't be a knee jerk guy because the blame hits you too hard. Like what Nico's dealing with now. Because prior to that Nico was a genius.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, you got. They went to the west finals, right?

[John Holmberg]

And they did it with the team. You're like, wow, they really put this dinwiddie and this, these guys are put together. This Brooklyn trade worked out. Kyrie's never healthy, but that was a good move. The guy got cursed by the injuries because he traded for dudes that were fragile and it turned out to bite him. Do you think he'll end up somewhere else with this tag on him now is worst ever. Remember Rich Kotite?

[Brett Vesely]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

The guy's career, he had five wins, he coached three and they gave him a GM's position. Of course it was the jets, they have always done so. But I mean this, there's so much to like. Like making the hierarchy so much above everybody. Oh, you don't understand what I do until you're in the room going, you don't do anything different than what these slubs are doing at a bar.

[Dale Hellray]

If I was gonna, if I would spend as much time watching film and doing yes. Things as you do.

[John Holmberg]

If it was my job, yeah, I think I could be, I don't know that I'd be great at it, but I would definitely be like listened to at a table. I, you know, I, I, the odd thing was I was offered buy a PR company the opportunity to run for office if I was interested for local city council stuff. And would you be interested in that? I'm like, what are you talking About. And he goes, well, you've got a brand, you've got a name, your opinion, and you're well spoken. And I said, that's it. And they said, well, we hear you. We can manipulate this. And I'm like, that's how politicians get picked. I prefer extraordinary compared to just that guy makes sense and doesn't mumble all over the place.

[Brett Vesely]

What is extraordinary?

[John Holmberg]

Well, that's the thing. Where does that come in? And it's what we as a society will place on a thing. Much like a GM will tell the fans, I got this. He doesn't have anything any more than we do.

[Brett Vesely]

No. And one of the things that I think they missed, I don't know how much they went through it with you, Dale, when you were drafted, is the personality. Again, I think I said this somewhere along the lines is give me 53 Pat Tillmans, give me those attitudes. I want guys. And, and, and, you know, how about.

[Dale Hellray]

52 Tillman's and a really good quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

There you go. But a quarterback with Tillman's brain.

[Brett Vesely]

Listen, I, I see a. I see a Baker Mayfield as, as a Pat Tillman brain, a quarterback. So give me Pat Tillman. Yeah, in Baker Mayfield's body, that's fine. It's good enough. It's all I need. Give me those guys and I'll be comfortable going to war on Sunday every day.

[John Holmberg]

But what's quantifiable about the brain? Well, that's. You have to learn that on the.

[Brett Vesely]

Field when you have a. Well, that's where I think these guys should, should be. These scouts should not be actually looking at film as much as going to people that know that and say, what is this guy about? What does he do in his off time?

[John Holmberg]

And I think they do that, but I think. I don't think enough. But I think there's. And Dale, you know this more than anybody. There are for blue chip guys like that, for dudes in college, high school and whatever. They have people now that go much like politicians and put you through the star wash. Tell you how to answer those questions, tell you how to get through this stuff. And you don't really get the real guy.

[Brett Vesely]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

You hear it all the time. Like, coach, we had dinner with Ed. He's a great. We were very high on him in the draft process and blah, blah, blah. Met his family. Wonderful people. They're trained to answer the. It's a job interview.

[Dale Hellray]

None of us go in there about three months.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, it's never what you are for real.

[Dale Hellray]

But here's my Thing and I talked about this probably a couple years ago, the fact that if I'm an NFL guy, you miss on so many guys making the transition from college to the pros. Yeah. You miss on a lot of guys going from high school to college. Well, why is that? A myriad of different reasons. You're moving to a new city, if you're going from high school to college, you're living on your own for the first time. All these things that can have. You gotta go to school on your own. Your mom and dad aren't waking you up in the morning. All those things can, can be because I've always said this about me off my high school team, I'm probably the fourth best football player.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Our quarterback went to Notre Dame on a full ride scholarship, blew his knee out third. The third day of practice, never was the same. Had a running back who went down to U of A on a scholarship. Grades got him. Had a guy that went to asu, drugs got him. Wow. And so there's so many pitfalls. And now I'm trying to forecast you playing against an NFL defensive tackle because you played against a college defensive tackle who I think kind of is good. But you don't know that. But when you see a kid who's played against NFL competition, I think you make less mistakes. But that's just me.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. But I think the mistakes still can live. And that's. It's such an the science of general managers and scouts. The one thing we can all agree on, I think, is the Wonderlic test doesn't work. Whatever the hell that is. Doesn't work. Whatever tests they give these guys. And I remember Mark Malone, he's played asu and I used to chat with him all the time. He always used to call the combine the underwear Olympics. It just doesn't matter how fast a guy can go because you remember Dre Archer had the record for fastest 40 for a year.

[Brett Vesely]

Who.

[John Holmberg]

And so, you know, you can say I jumped higher than anyone else. I ran that shuttle drill. It's all mental what they're doing. And I think now that there's so much prep for it that you can coach a guy through that process and fool a lot of dudes who are going to draft you. A lot of teams that are thinking about it.

[Dale Hellray]

And then what about coaching? Because we're living it right today. We've seen in Arizona the last 25 years or two, best quarterbacks are really cast off some other teams, older guys, but you're looking at right now the quarterback in Seattle Sam Darnold, the quarterback in Indianapolis. Both were labeled busts.

[John Holmberg]

Baker Mayfield, Baker May.

[Dale Hellray]

You know, he took a little bit longer. A couple more franchises, but they. They were labeled busts.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And now they go to a franchise or is a competent head coach or good offensive coordinator. You know, whatever. Now they got their teams at 8 and 2.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

And Sam Donald. This is the second year they stop with the hui of. Yeah, the last two games last year weren't good. He won 14 games.

[John Holmberg]

And if it happens and becomes a Schottenheimer situation where he's 14 and three every year and bails out the class, like, okay, we've got a Sam Darnold problem. We found a ceiling.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

That happens to a lot of guys. But you get into, you know, like, the dudes who can surpass that. It's awfully hard to be a bust and then come back and be an mvp.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Kurt Warner's a great example of, like, nobody wanted him.

[Dale Hellray]

Right. He came here with a bad thumb.

[John Holmberg]

Trent Green went down, and everyone started crying. Their season was over. They're done. Dick Vermeil in the press conference, sobbing. We're gonna get behind Kurt Warner.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah. But nobody knew Dick for meal. Like, the pencil. His pencil broke, and he started crying.

[John Holmberg]

He did cry. He was emotional, but let's go.

[Brett Vesely]

And the clouds came over him, and he cried.

[John Holmberg]

Steve Mariucci and Mike Holmgren, nobody saw it in Green Bay when they cut him. Like, there's just so many mistakes out there and so many guys that get chances that shouldn't. And that leads me right into what I want to talk about. It's about the halfway point of football. Everybody's gotten past their buy for the most part. Some teams have their 10 games, some people are at nine. That's officially past the halfway point. Now we get into late November, early December football, and that's when the rubber meets the road. You know the John Fasinda quote where, you know, the hopes and dreams of September go to the wastelands of December. Best voice ever. Oh, just unbelievable. Oh, there's not a lot better than listening.

[Dale Hellray]

You need it, but you need to get him down.

[John Holmberg]

Well, he's dead.

[Dale Hellray]

I know.

[John Holmberg]

You can show me. Like, a voice, you mean? Yeah, his voice can AI.

[Brett Vesely]

Just copy his voice so we can have him talk everything.

[John Holmberg]

If you had the headphones on, you'd hear right now the music going in the background.

[Dale Hellray]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

And then you say the. In the frozen tundra, Rambo field, only warriors met. Imagine him stood, Some fell.

[Brett Vesely]

What are we having for dinner?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I Always wonder that, like, were they around the house? I want to come home and have a Salisbury steak and I want extra salt at the table. And if it's not there, there will be hell to pay. But he had to walk around with that. Bells in the back. Yeah, it's just all the thing. But yeah, Facenda was amazing. But here we go into the Thanksgiving thing and now it's time to start looking to me and I want to break down all of it by name with you guys. I'll name a team fraud contender because we've got a lot.

[Dale Hellray]

Okay. Because before you go into it, I love this topic because we were talking about on, on my morning show with Steve McCollum, the fact that right now, if the playoffs started this weekend and Indianapolis was playing Kansas City in Indianapolis, are you taking Indianapolis?

[John Holmberg]

No, Kansas City's 5 and 4.

[Dale Hellray]

If New England's playing Buffalo in the first round of the playoffs, are you taking New England?

[John Holmberg]

The AFC screams fraudulent right now. It screams fraudulent. Now let's go to the nfc. We'll start at the nfc. I'm looking at the Eagles and I got questions. Well, seven and two standing on top of the division. That isn't good. Cowboys are three and five. Commanders are three and seven. Three five and one commanders are three and seven. Giants are two and eight. Scrappy, competitive teams underneath them, but not good. They're not playing great football. The Eagles, they did this a little last year. They talked about Sirianni's got to go. He got in a fight with the crowd, wins the Super bowl at 7 and 2. Are the Eagles frauds or are they contenders?

[Dale Hellray]

No, they're contenders. But the thing is they're only going to have to win 10 or 11. Maybe 10 gets them.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, they get the division. They're getting a home game. Right. That's happening.

[Dale Hellray]

You know, and with that comes. Okay, you know what? You got to play in Philadelphia in January. That obviously bodes well for you. I think that they're contending.

[John Holmberg]

I think they're contenders because of their history. All the team did was lose players.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, they lost some players. They brought a couple in. I think they made a couple trades. So they got a couple people going. But here's the deal. And I think it happened last year. I can't remember who was with, but A.J. brown.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

I mean, he's coming out. And hey, if you're a fantasy owner, don't, don't play me this week.

[John Holmberg]

Right. What happens there?

[Dale Hellray]

But yeah, you're sitting there at 7 and 2.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And that's why I kind of look at him. I'm like, I question you. And the only reason I would say guaranteed in the contender category is because, like you said, going into December, they're going to lock it down. Those super bowl teams just go, we've been there. Now we can. Now we'll turn this up. We're 7 and 2 accidentally almost not playing great. Watch this.

[Dale Hellray]

I was just talking with the head coaches. Kyle Sokrish, academic place. I coached for a long, long time. They're going for the third straight championship. They had some struggles in the regular season. I said, that's because, guess what? If you played in the state championships, you played in the Super Bowls, you're hyped for those last three or four games. Now you're playing a game in September. Yeah. Against a nobody.

[John Holmberg]

And you think we're going to walk over them and if we don't, it won't matter. We'll win later.

[Dale Hellray]

Exactly.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And I think that's the Eagles right now. And still seven and two.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And that game against the packers last Monday.

[Dale Hellray]

That football back. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. It was not good.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

It was tough to watch on a Monday nighter, Dave.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, that's. I. I was green. Everything.

[John Holmberg]

You said it.

[Brett Vesely]

They've been there. Teams that have been there.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

It's.

[John Holmberg]

You can't count them out.

[Brett Vesely]

No. And the other thing I'll say is they have a play. They have a tool that no one else has. If it's third and one or fourth.

[John Holmberg]

And one, it's first down.

[Brett Vesely]

It's first down. And no other team can count on that except them.

[Commercial Announcer]

They.

[Brett Vesely]

They make getting first downs much easier with their little play. And I don't know how they pull it off. And listen, I don't have the time to watch films and figure out how they're doing that. But these other teams should probably kind of.

[John Holmberg]

They are.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

But they're not figuring it out. It can't be. It can't be that rocket science flagged for.

[John Holmberg]

Well, he.

[Dale Hellray]

But here's the thing. Nobody has a quarterback who squats 650 pounds. John Hurts is a strong, strong dude.

[John Holmberg]

And he's got Saquon Barkley pushing behind him with a tight end and both of them are squatting. 6.

[Dale Hellray]

That's what I would say if I'm a Philadelphia fan. That does concern me. Yeah. Is what's going on with Saquon and the running game in general.

[John Holmberg]

Well, again, they lost some players. They're not exactly the same team as last year. Saquon's proving that this year. And if he's dinged up and not talking, that might be a thing too. But yeah, that. The, the Phillies shove the brotherly shove. The, the guards jump offsides every time they don't call it on Philly. And I've seen five or six other teams try it and they flag them every time. And I'm like, why is that a thing? Because if you watch the guards almost have to jump that play and they do because they're just gonna, it's just gonna look like they're doing it because they're, they're torpedoing legs other teams. I watched the Steelers try it. I watched the Bills do it. And the Bills. To me, the disadvantage of that is Josh Allen so tall that they just stand him up if he can't get as low as Jalen Hurts does behind that center.

[Dale Hellray]

So, yeah, Philly is the officiating because you think Kansas City, that right tackle of theirs seems like he jumps all the time almost every pass out. But yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So I'll just skip over the rest of the NFC East. I think we all agree the Eagles are legitimate and only one team's going. Wouldn't surprise any of us to see them in the NFC Championship game. NFC north is super interesting. I'll go through the whole thing. The Vikings are 4 and 5. They've met with some adversity. They, they, they won a game last week against The Lions with J.J. mcCarthy. It was like, what?

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Where do you, where do you put them? Contenders, pretenders, potential spoiler?

[Brett Vesely]

J.J. mcCarthy has, he's going to, he's going to have some good games. He's going to have some stinkers and that's just going to continue on. And part of that is, I've said this before, he didn't play that much in college. What do you play two years?

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

So guys that come out of college, if you look at guys who make a difference immediately in their career, they played four years and they played a lot. So J.J. mcCarthy, basically.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, he missed all, he missed all last year.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, he's basically a junior.

[John Holmberg]

But doesn't college, doesn't that bode poorly for the coach and the general manager? That they had a team that was NFC championship worthy last year and they went with JJ and set him back.

[Brett Vesely]

They misconstrued the fact that he's not ready because he hasn't played that much, he doesn't have that much experience. They're hoping he catches on and they. Hoping he's the guy right now. But they, but I can Understand why they're doing that? Because he doesn't. He's not carrying a lot of salary guys free cap. Right.

[John Holmberg]

It's free for a champion.

[Brett Vesely]

You got to play him.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

If you wait to give him the experience behind Darnold, if he's still there by the time he, he, he becomes.

[John Holmberg]

Mature and it's ready Bucks. Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

You know, and then, then you lost all that. That advantage.

[John Holmberg]

Did the Vikings make the playoffs?

[Brett Vesely]

I don't think so.

[John Holmberg]

Currently sitting in fourth in the NFC north by a game.

[Brett Vesely]

Who are they going to pass in front of the NFC North?

[John Holmberg]

Well, the packers and the Bears are right in front of them and they can. They've proven they can beat the best in the, in the division.

[Brett Vesely]

I don't think they're as good as either one of those teams.

[John Holmberg]

Okay. Do you think the packers are pretenders? That's a big one to me. Well, I bet them people you had them going to the super bowl.

[Brett Vesely]

Right.

[Dale Hellray]

Are they.

[John Holmberg]

Are they legitimate? Can they turn now?

[Brett Vesely]

Listen, one of the things that I, I had was the fact that I could count on was lafleur is a great offensive coordinator. I don't understand. And they have everyone basically back from last. It's not like they've lost anyone. It's a lot like they're headed right. I'm just confused what's going on over there. Offensively, I'm just confused. I have no answers. Does anyone have an answer?

[John Holmberg]

No.

[Brett Vesely]

Have you heard of anyone having an answer?

[John Holmberg]

It's. It's confusing because their defense is starting to play like they get and they put the Eagles to what, 10 points and lost the game in Green Bay 10 to 7. That is a huge loss.

[Brett Vesely]

But, but remember the. The three losses they had or however many the loss they had, three loss they have are all to really the three worst teams they played.

[John Holmberg]

Browns.

[Brett Vesely]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

I mean it was well except for.

[Brett Vesely]

Philadelphia, but the Browns and wherever else.

[John Holmberg]

They lost to and the Cowboys tied them right. In a game that that vaunted defense was supposed to be able to just. They could not stop that team at all.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm expecting the offense to figure it out in a little bit of a way. And if the defense keeps playing better, I think they're definitely going to make it. And, and they can make waves in the, in the playoffs. So I'm not counting them next year.

[Dale Hellray]

You'Re going to bring up is the one that is such a stinking conundrum.

[John Holmberg]

What do you do with the Bears.

[Dale Hellray]

Seriously going to six and three. Yes. Tied and finding Ways to win a lot of them. Not pretty. No.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, you got a quarterback that just jumped all over everybody last. Last week in the fourth quarter with a 70 yard drive and a 50 of it on the ground for himself. And he's like, when Caleb plays, you got yourself a thing here.

[Dale Hellray]

Is it, is it going to continue under the head coach who's a hell of an offensive mind? Is he going to continue to improve as the season goes along? And if he kind of common sense tells you, well, he should get better under this coaching staff, well, you look.

[John Holmberg]

At that division and you see that they are these. I mean, the Vikings have scored 201 points. Packers have 213. And that's an offense everybody thought was going to explode. The Bears have 247 points, right? They're the highest scoring team in that. In that. In the North.

[Brett Vesely]

No, they, if.

[John Holmberg]

No, I guess the Lions are 283. 283, 239, 230. They've given up 247. I looked backwards. Yeah, so 239. But still, they've. They've been outscored. They've.

[Brett Vesely]

They've been outscored.

[John Holmberg]

Well, they have 247, 239. They're not winning games like, oh, that's a walk away.

[Dale Hellray]

Which tells you that no, this is a fairy tale. That's going to fool's goal and soon.

[John Holmberg]

So that puts the Lions in this driver's seat for this.

[Brett Vesely]

Just repeat what we said about Philly. They there, they've been there. They're experienced, I guess. You don't think.

[John Holmberg]

Not the way Philly has. Philly's won it all. I think getting to a spot and losing can be detrimental and make it so. All right, guys, here's where we always lose.

[Brett Vesely]

I still think Dan Campbell is one of the better coaches in the NFL.

[Dale Hellray]

But now I'm going to put my hat.

[John Holmberg]

I'm going to hang my hat. That's good.

[Dale Hellray]

The one thing we got to remember now, he made a change last Monday, too.

[John Holmberg]

He's calling the plays.

[Dale Hellray]

He's calling the plays. Now, how long that goes on at the state. But the other thing, if I'm looking at it and I'm confused, I look at those four teams, who has the best quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Well, that's a tough call.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm not a Jared Goff fan.

[Dale Hellray]

I'm just not.

[John Holmberg]

I think Jared Goff's really good for. For what they make him do. A man when he gets on, he's good, but I Think that's true of Everybody, say, for J.J. mcCarthy.

[Brett Vesely]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Everybody in the North. You're like, okay, Jordan, game this Sunday.

[Dale Hellray]

You're starting lineup. You're telling me, Caleb, that's the way.

[John Holmberg]

You look at it.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm probably going with golf.

[John Holmberg]

Jared Goff. I think that's the best way to look at that.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm going. I'm going in with one eye closed.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Because it could go sideways. He very rarely. Terrible.

[Brett Vesely]

Oh, listen, given time, he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league without time. And all quarterbacks are going to struggle without time. But. But he gets Happy Feet. He gets. He gets squirrely. But he gets super squirrely than most. Yeah, wait, no, I take that back. He gets more squirrely than all of them.

[John Holmberg]

You think? Yes, There's a couple of them of the good ones. Let's go to the NFC South. The Buccaneers and Panthers are leading the way there. I think we all agree the Panthers are kind of like a drunk uncle at a party. They can wreck it, but they can't do any real damage.

[Dale Hellray]

All right.

[John Holmberg]

Buccaneers are a team. People whisper MVP with Baker. He's in, he's out. He's in, he's out. They're six and three. This division's sort of weird. You don't know what the Falcons are. They're 3 and 6, but they can come up and punch you right in the mouth if they feel like it.

[Brett Vesely]

They have one of the worst coaches in the league.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Are the Buccaneers a team that you could see in the NFC Championship game?

[Brett Vesely]

I guess they could be there, but if. I'm betting. I'm betting a lot that they won't get that.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Philly or go play up north somewhere. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

If they are the record states right now that they would be the traveling division winner.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And that's a tough one. And then you get to the west and you got your Rams, who suddenly. Matthew Stafford's the best quarterback in football.

[Dale Hellray]

Back issue.

[John Holmberg]

Four touchdowns a game. That's who can't do that. And then the Seahawks at seven and two, one. Four in a row. Both those teams are winning four in a row. And they're going to run into each other here this week. Those are going to be some battles. Those are going to be. I mean, that's McVeigh and then McDaniel or. What's his name. That's not McDaniel.

[Dale Hellray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

McDonald. McDonald, that's right. McDonald up in Seattle. Those two teams are, you know, they're cut from cloths that do not bend and then McDonald is a guy from the Ravens and he's got the Ravens mentality up there. That defense is that defense again.

[Dale Hellray]

Our most recent memory is watching them run rough shot over the Cardinals.

[John Holmberg]

They took the Cardinals and treated them like a little brother and got rid of them fast and said we're out of here.

[Dale Hellray]

By the way, I did make some money on that game.

[John Holmberg]

Did you?

[Dale Hellray]

Once I found out you didn't place our bet, the halftime spread was cardinals plus 34.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, you covered.

[Dale Hellray]

There is no way they're going to lose this game.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, they could have. I wouldn't have touched that. I wouldn't have touched that. For the sake of Jacoby dropping a couple more.

[Dale Hellray]

I'm sitting there going, you know what? I know they're in a locker room and McDonald's stab. We're going 00. It's looking at going 8 00.

[John Holmberg]

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[Dale Hellray]

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[John Holmberg]

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[Dale Hellray]

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[John Holmberg]

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[Dale Hellray]

Two beers, an appetizer, two entrees and two additional non alcoholic drinks for under $30. Nowhere. So head to Hooters, your game day headquarters.

[John Holmberg]

Man, I look at the way the west is shaped up right now and I should just turn this mic off and walk out of the room because that division I had flip flopped completely. And I'm not alone. People had the 49ers going to the Super Bowl.

[Dale Hellray]

They had the Cardinals winning.

[John Holmberg]

Cardinals win the division. I thought, finally this Jonathan Gannon thing is going to come to. These guys are crappy. They got linemen, they got. They're terrible through both injury and God knows what else. The Niners are pretenders to me because they just can't get past their own problems. Six and four, I think they would be really good if they could just.

[Brett Vesely]

Keep doing it with smoke and mirrors.

[John Holmberg]

Look, Mac Jones is playing well. He's not great. I mean, going 33 for 39 in a game is most of the time your quarterback. Quarterback's going to have a 20 point win. They lost that game. So you look at the Rams and the Seahawks and I guess you ask yourself, which of these two teams do you trust the most? See, you're going to go with McVeigh.

[Brett Vesely]

Yes. That's it.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's the one.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm sorry, I don't have to say anymore.

[John Holmberg]

That's a difference maker.

[Dale Hellray]

But, but you've seen McVeigh do that before. You have not seen McDonald.

[Brett Vesely]

I'm going to go with McVeigh. I'm going to go with the fact that Matthew Stafford's been there before, he's experienced.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Again, you can't hit a quarterback. So as long as he's healthy. Yeah, he's gonna, he's gonna outplay Sam. Sam Darnold, and Sam Darnold's having a great year. He's worthy of all the accolades he's gotten. But, but who would you rather take for one game at quarterback? I mean, Matthew Stafford might be one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the game.

[John Holmberg]

He's playing amazing and that team is just ready to go. I think if I'm. But man, that's a tough one because Seattle's defense is so good and Sam Darnold played so well. And I think it's time to strip the loser label off. Sam Darnold, I think he's proven through whatever it is, like 25, 30 games, this is not a fluke.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah. But when I'm watching him against teams, it looks like the coaches have training wheels on him and they're just not letting him go. He is playing great within their system. But when, when push comes to shove or things get dark and you're down a little bit, I'm not trusting him to get that team back in like I would.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Matthew Stafford. No way.

[John Holmberg]

Here's what I'll say.

[Brett Vesely]

A hundred out of 100 times, five.

[Dale Hellray]

Games in the last 28.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

They're 10 regular season games? Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Five times.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah. Out of 28. Huge. Yes.

[Brett Vesely]

Okay, so again, did.

[Dale Hellray]

What?

[Brett Vesely]

Did he carry Minnesota or did he just. Was he just in the driver's seat steering the wheel?

[John Holmberg]

Minnesota's 4 and 5. They have two more losses in nine weeks than they had all last year.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, but how many. How many? One. One score game, Won the game, Did Minnesota.

[Dale Hellray]

You are what your record says.

[Brett Vesely]

You are not saying he did a bad.

[John Holmberg]

A lot of times you win those one score games because your quarterback didn't throw it away in the fourth quarter.

[Brett Vesely]

That's what I'm saying. He's not doing anything crazy. He's not winning games for them. He's not losing games for them.

[John Holmberg]

Well, I. Look at here's my, my. I don't ever give this away, but it is. If Vegas found out about this, they'd cancel a lot of bets. They would probably not even have lines on it. The John Holmberg for sure guarantee. Oh, it's just between us. Okay. I don't want this to get out.

[Dale Hellray]

Perfect.

[John Holmberg]

There will never ever be a redheaded world champion quarterback in football.

[Brett Vesely]

I can't argue that.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, it's not happening. I'm sorry.

[Brett Vesely]

I can't argue that.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, first of all, I mean that. That breaks it down to. What about Bart Starr?

[Brett Vesely]

I thought I've signed it down.

[Dale Hellray]

I'm telling you, anybody have one redheaded quarterback decade?

[John Holmberg]

Andy Dalton.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You get these redheads that come along every once in a while. I don't know what's going on with this here. To get a true ginger up there, they're never going to hoist a Lombardi quarterback. I'm positive of that. So if I'm putting my money down on either of the teams between the Rams and Seahawks, I'm going to go back to the tried and true. Never trust the ginger.

[Dale Hellray]

You're saying Darnold's a ginger and.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's a ginger all right. Take that helmet. Oh, my God, that thing.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, he's got a punchable face.

[John Holmberg]

Well, he does have that too. He looks like a snotty from usc. Let's get to the afc, which is just. Just loaded.

[Dale Hellray]

What if.

[Brett Vesely]

What if a redhead did. Did his hair like burrow and became.

[John Holmberg]

If it's dyed hair. Dyed hair doesn't quite count. True, natural ginger.

[Brett Vesely]

No. What if a redhead dyed his hair? Now, does he become eligible to win?

[John Holmberg]

True, natural ginger. Can't dye their hair. It's always ginger face. So true. Natural redhead will never hoist a Lombardi. Closest thing we ever had was Peyton Manning and that was brownish blonde.

[Dale Hellray]

There's been 57 of them.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, and none of them have ever.

[Brett Vesely]

Where do you find this information?

[John Holmberg]

I got it. And don't you worry about it. I don't want to give away all my secrets, but am I wrong?

[Dale Hellray]

Not yet.

[John Holmberg]

I mean we threw a big fit about not if a non white quarterback wins a Super Bowl. There have been specials about that. Nobody ever looks over goes, how come gingers never get that?

[Dale Hellray]

Should. You should probably produce one.

[John Holmberg]

I should probably get a 30 for 30 going. I think it might piss people off. Andy Dalton. I'm just saying, hey, prove me wrong. So far, if you're a betting man.

[Dale Hellray]

57 of them stay away from those.

[John Holmberg]

Redheaded guys in those clutch games. You got the AFC East, Bills and Patriots fighting for the top of that. I'll go on and let them start this off by saying the Bills are absolutely frauds. That's a fraudulent football team. If Josh Allen isn't perfect, they don't win.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, but.

[Brett Vesely]

But Josh Allen is perfect a lot of the times.

[John Holmberg]

But Miami, he sure wasn't. Atlanta. He sure wasn't.

[Brett Vesely]

Remember Buffalo's coming off a big win against Kansas City. That is a letdown game.

[John Holmberg]

That's it. That's a letdown game. That's what frauds do.

[Dale Hellray]

No, no, no.

[John Holmberg]

That's what fraudster.

[Dale Hellray]

The Steelers Monday night game.

[John Holmberg]

And there's that too. But my Steelers are a fraud because they came off the biggest win of their season and look great doing it and then go and lay an egg in in LA with the Chargers. Fraudulent teams. Don't you know this? The Dallas Cowboys would never have a. Oh, that was a let. You had a couple clunkers. Yes, but those weren't like, oh, you don't have three in a season. No, not three in a half a season.

[Dale Hellray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

And you certainly weren't going to lose to the Arizona Cardinals midway through the season. When you're, when you've on your first trek to a Super bowl, they should be playing pissed off football. I tell you, they should never lose to the Dolphins. And not just squeakers. The Dolphins beat their ass from start to finish.

[Dale Hellray]

They did dominate.

[John Holmberg]

That should not happen to a team that isn't fraudulent.

[Brett Vesely]

I tell you what, I think they looked ahead. I mean I think they were looking behind with their big win against Kansas City. I don't even know if they knew they were playing Sunday and who they were playing. That's exactly right. But I think they'll bounce back this week. Tell you what Got Tampa. Everyone loves Tampa. I'll tell you what. Right now I'll bet. I'll bet anyone you want. You want, you want Tampa? I'll give you Tampa. I'll take Buffalo.

[John Holmberg]

I don't want Buffalo.

[Brett Vesely]

Bounce back.

[John Holmberg]

That's what frauds do. Frauds do bounce back games and then have another letdown and a bounce back.

[Dale Hellray]

Here's another thing to look at with Buffalo because it happened again with us. It's fascinating with the Scottsdale Christian Academy, Buffalo's 5 and oh. Against Kansas City. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

The regular season doesn't matter when it.

[Dale Hellray]

Matters their own five in the playoffs. Our arch nemesis. We lost to them both pre. The last two seasons. We lost to them in the regular season and they beat him in the state championship. And. And so there's. There's a difference there.

[John Holmberg]

I. Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

I tend to lean towards you.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

I just. Fraud is a really.

[John Holmberg]

Here's the reason why I call them frauds first because they have a team in their division now that might be better than them. And they haven't had that in their run.

[Dale Hellray]

No, they have not.

[John Holmberg]

And now going into December, Buffalo's scary. Not to the Patriots. Same exact thing. So you can go to Buffalo, you can go to New England and these two teams travel and defense travels. Mike Frabel has the Patriots playing the best defense in football.

[Brett Vesely]

You would think McDermott, isn't he a defensive guy?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but he is.

[Brett Vesely]

What's going on with that defense?

[John Holmberg]

That's the thing you can. A big back will run him over. Derek Henry did it. Bijon Robinson did it. Last week, the Dolphins did it. You can't figure the Bills out. I don't trust the Bills. But the one thing that's the wild card is Josh Allen can be perfect.

[Dale Hellray]

He can.

[John Holmberg]

They will win. But if he's not, they don't have anything else.

[Dale Hellray]

But for anybody saying coaching is not really that important. I mean you look at Mike Frable and what he's done and doing a very quietly.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

You know.

[John Holmberg]

Well also the GM there. We were talking about that earlier. But the GM there has spent $170 million and brought in almost every piece has fit perfectly.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

They have not missed on.

[Dale Hellray]

But not names. Not a whole lot of huge names. Just blue collar dudes. Plug him in here. Plug them in there.

[John Holmberg]

Mike Vrabels.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

A load of Mike Vrables. It's the very Dan Campbell of the AFC is that he came up that he did great in Tennessee.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

He just kind of ran into like losing players and not having a roster now he's up there in New England.

[Brett Vesely]

I think he did an unbelievable job in Tennessee. I never knew if you could name five guys from the Tennessee Titans team any year, pick one.

[Dale Hellray]

And you knew Derek Henry.

[John Holmberg]

Derrick Henry was their God. And Ryan Tannehill was a quarterback in the AFC championship game.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Okay, I'm out.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's it.

[Dale Hellray]

But now you look at this year and you're. Are. You are. Is New England here to stay?

[John Holmberg]

I am going to place them directly in the you can't move us category. Really? I think the page. I hate saying this. I think the Patriots are back and standing on this thing going, question us with a young quarterback, they'll knock you on your ass. They're a team that looks at you like they're not afraid of.

[Dale Hellray]

No, no, no, they're not.

[John Holmberg]

And early in the season, they were dancing around with fumbles and everything. They shorted up and they've won seven in a row. They're going to hit a. They're going to hit a wall. It may be against the Bills because the Bills have to play a good game against them. The Patriots are kind of winking like, talk about drunk uncle. They're not supposed to be there yet. And when the Bills stumble, Patriots jump ahead. Another game.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

So that's the thing.

[Dale Hellray]

If Bubble doesn't win, do they play this week?

[John Holmberg]

I don't know if they've got them this week.

[Dale Hellray]

I'm not sure who they. But yeah, they do.

[Brett Vesely]

They play Tampa.

[Dale Hellray]

Buffalo.

[John Holmberg]

They play Tampa. That's right. Yeah. So it's. It's a. That's. That's one with the team like the Patriots in the division. Looking back on, oh, you guys aren't coming. We'll be way up here. And now you gotta beat them because now the Bills have what they had with you guys in the 90s.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

That gripping, kind of like, oh, we're the little brother again. How did this happen?

[Dale Hellray]

You look at three of the division leaders in the AFC and I can find a reason to not like every one of them.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

But New England, I think now that I've heard you talk and more I think about it, I think they're the most solid right now to win their division.

[John Holmberg]

They're the ones that aren't tripping over themselves and maybe that'll change. You don't win, you know, they were 1 and 2, another 8 and 2 and won seven in a row. There'll be a game that they.

[Dale Hellray]

But you knew they were going to. They probably were going to start off slow. Because the new coaching staff. New. New.

[John Holmberg]

They stay healthy.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And. And keep this kind of mindset, even with a stumble or two, we're looking at a 13 and 4 Patriots team.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, that is. That is a team that's going to walk.

[Dale Hellray]

I mean, think about it. Even if they get to 12 wins, Buffalo has five.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

They're five and two.

[John Holmberg]

They're six and three.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, I'll tell you this.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah. So. So they. So over the last eight games, they'd have to go six and two to get to 12.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. To tie them.

[Dale Hellray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And that's in the hopes that they beat them along the way.

[Brett Vesely]

So New England will get there, but they're not going to get.

[John Holmberg]

You think they're fraudulent? No, I. Championship contenders.

[Brett Vesely]

They are, and they're not fraudulent, but I just don't think they're ready yet. I mean, how many teams have come out of nowhere and gone all the way without, like, having that learning experience for a year or two?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, they just need to be seasoned.

[John Holmberg]

That brings us to the other divisions where I've already stated I'm positive the Steelers are a fraud.

[Brett Vesely]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

They're. They're 5 and 4, 4 and 1 at one point and just kind of again, heading towards 9 and 8. I don't know what Tomlin does. I don't know how he's doing this, but he's going to be 9 and 18. Ravens are on the way up. They're healthy. They're going to win that division. They're fraudulent as well. They've got a lot of holes.

[Dale Hellray]

How many wins do they have? Four.

[John Holmberg]

Four. They're four and five and again.

[Brett Vesely]

And they play the Steelers still twice in the future.

[John Holmberg]

Ye. And the Steelers play them tough even when they're not that good. And the Steelers aren't good. They're just not consistent that that team can beat anybody. It's proven when they beat Indianapolis and soundly, but when they get in their own way, they're a catastrophe. It's a train wreck. So I can see the Steelers 9 and 8, 10 and 7, the Ravens 11 and 6. They'll probably. That means they have. They have to go 7 and 1 and I don't see that happening either.

[Dale Hellray]

You're talking about the Steelers.

[John Holmberg]

No, the Ravens. They have to go 7 and 1 to be 11 and 6.

[Dale Hellray]

I mean, even though they're a completely different team with their quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Their schedul schedule is easy with the exception of maybe two games. Steelers schedules. They got the Lions, they got the Bears. Coming. There's some. And the Ravens, twice. The Steelers have a lot harder roads, and I think the Ravens win the division, but it's going to be close. But I think of those two, I don't think either of them are really super bowl contenders. Then you get to the Colts. Is that real?

[Brett Vesely]

I believe. I believe in the Ravens more than I believe in the Colts.

[John Holmberg]

Okay. I can see.

[Dale Hellray]

Really? Is that because of history or because of this season?

[Brett Vesely]

I just think, Daniel, Indiana Jones is playing fine.

[John Holmberg]

Everybody keeps focusing on him. Jonathan Taylor is.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

No, no.

[Dale Hellray]

And that offensive line, unbelievable. They were mashing people.

[John Holmberg]

And when the Steelers beat them, there was an exposure to the middle blitz. Right. And they shorted up in a week because against Atlanta, they struggled a little. They picked it up and it's like, all right, you want to do this? We're just going to run Jonathan Taylor right into the splits, and he ran for 260 yards or something like that was crazy. So they're smart enough to get around their weaknesses. They still have them. I don't understand the Sauce Gardener trade. I don't get why they spent so much money on a corner. They're good enough to have been there, I don't think. And he, you know, got torched right off the bat in Atlanta, and I.

[Dale Hellray]

Was like, well, almost look like you blew his knee.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I thought it was done. I think the Colts are a team that will be there. But again, we go back to what Dale said. If they're playing the Chiefs, Bills, or a team that's like, really believing in themselves, do you trust the Colts to get Pat? Even the Steelers and Ravens? I look at those two in the playoffs, I'm like, I wouldn't be afraid. I'm not afraid of the Colts.

[Dale Hellray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

I'm not afraid of the Colts.

[Dale Hellray]

But again, in this. That's what's so fascinating about the afc. There's not that dominant team.

[John Holmberg]

That's why I'm a little afraid of the Patriots. We don't know enough about them to know should we be afraid?

[Dale Hellray]

Right. And they might be a little bit like our 92 cowboys in the fact that. Yeah. They're starting to feel it. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And this quarterback we've got actually is legitimate.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah. I just want to bring up the Indian Indianapolis schedule. I mean, they've beaten Miami.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

The. The Raiders, the Cardinals. But then they squeaked by twice.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

I mean, come on.

[Dale Hellray]

Who do they. Do you have the rest of their.

[Brett Vesely]

Schedule there going forward? Yeah, they.

[John Holmberg]

They.

[Brett Vesely]

They're going to have Kansas City coming up Seattle, they don't really have much.

[John Holmberg]

No, but they got a couple games in there. Plus the Jags are in their division. If they played them twice, they're. They're fraudulent. But they're 5 and 4 and they can bite you.

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, I don't.

[John Holmberg]

In division, you don't want. You don't want that mess coming up to spoil your season. If Jackson.

[Brett Vesely]

They're not gonna bite you. They might just gnawing you like. Like guys with no teeth. They gum you. They might gum you, but they're not biting you.

[John Holmberg]

Now let's get to the AFC west, where I think the largest fraud in football lives, and that's the Denver Broncos. Good defense, Good defense, but they're winning 11 to nine. I don't know what. Like, they're just doing things nobody do. That jets game, prior to that, they had another game that was just atrocious football.

[Dale Hellray]

It's. It's butt ugly football.

[John Holmberg]

Terrible. And it isn't because they're so dominant on defense. It's because they're good enough on defense. And their offense makes the other team's defense look like theirs. Like they are not consistent enough to be at their. Their 8 and 2. And that's why I call them the biggest frauds. That record is Tim Tebow years. Like, how are you winning like this? You guys are. You guys are tripping over your own to get into the end zone and you're walking out going, did we just win? I think they're more surprised.

[Dale Hellray]

They might be, but they got a good coach. Whatever you think about Sean Payne, I know a lot of people don't like him. I think he's a. He's a hell of a football coach.

[John Holmberg]

Another one that's won seven in a row. And explain to me how that's happened. Explain.

[Dale Hellray]

And if you go through those scores, you're like, wow. What?

[Brett Vesely]

Yeah, they have not been very impressive, but I don't care.

[Dale Hellray]

So you don't care about Denver being 8 and 2, but you think that Indianapolis.

[Brett Vesely]

No, I'm just saying I have more faith in Sean Payton. I do. I do.

[John Holmberg]

I don't have any faith in that offense at all. I don't think in the. I think Sean Payton's growing frustrated with Bo Nicks. They were talking about that the other day on a NFL network when I was watching. Somebody suggested Sean Payton's probably this close to pulling Bull Bonicks.

[Brett Vesely]

Get out of here.

[John Holmberg]

You start looking at his numbers. That is not Sean Payton's offense. And he gets frustrated fast. And if he's got a guy that can go, you know, 173 yards and throwing through the air sitting behind him.

[Brett Vesely]

See what he did to bring him back against the Giants. Although I know playing against the Giants and Brian Dable, who should have been fired long time ago, but still, that was pretty impressive comeback.

[John Holmberg]

It was a let. Look, that was a letdown as much as it was a comeback.

[Brett Vesely]

Was it? I don't know.

[Dale Hellray]

Giants.

[John Holmberg]

The Giants allowed five scores in the fourth quarter. That's harder. That means you gotta have. That's hard to do exactly five times. And they gave up fast scores. And the Giants scored once. Yeah. The Broncos to me are the biggest fraud in the West. The Chargers are confusing, but I don't trust them yet.

[Brett Vesely]

They're doing it with like a MASH unit.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

So when they, if they get healthy.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

They're the team that I think is. Everyone should be scared about.

[John Holmberg]

I'm just not afraid of teams going to LA because their stadium will be filled with whoever they're playing.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, not only that, but they lost both starting tackles.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And if those guys come back, Dave's right. They get healthy. But if the Chargers play the Chiefs in the playoffs, that stadium is going to be full of Chiefs fans. And then you get into that. The Chiefs are 5 and 4, teetering on the brink, on the bubble of being in the playoffs. And they just sit back and look, we'll win it for the sixth seed. We'll be fine. They are that team that they like to do that. They're the team like with Dale, like, we'll turn it on when we need to. And they did it last year.

[Dale Hellray]

How many times have they been written off?

[John Holmberg]

Oh, last year, the one win. Oh, they're only winning by one score at a time. They're. They're not looking impressive at all. December rolled around and they started kicking dudes harder each week. And you're like, oh, the Chiefs are back. And then the Eagles were the same team on the other side. A little better.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

So I look at the Chiefs as the scariest still. Yeah. Through all of this, the Chiefs are the scariest team.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, they're sitting there. Five and four, correct.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So. So if they're. They're going to get in the playoffs, they'll make the playoffs. Whether they win the division or they're a wild card, they're going to get in the playoffs. And then once you get in the playoffs with Patrick Mahomes, all bets are off. And Andy Reid again, I don't know who I would pick to beat them, you know, in a game.

[John Holmberg]

They're dicking around with missing the playoffs though, because they've got a lot of teams at 5 and 4, a lot of teams.

[Brett Vesely]

The Cowboys do that a couple times and end up okay.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but still you got two teams ahead of you in your division. You got. They got to start. They got to turn maybe a little earlier than they'd like to, but they've got to start. They got to get a little streak going. They've got to be in the mix of this. They're two back of second place. So they've got to really kind of figure this out because right now the Steelers and Ravens are going to end up that 9 and 7, 10 or 10 and 7, 9 and 8 team. And the Chiefs have to have 11, 10, 11 wins.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, only one. Well, and I guess two teams are coming out of the.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, you got two coming out of the east, one coming out of the north, one out of the south and maybe three from the west. But it's going to be close between two coming out of the north. Ravens and Steelers are both 10 win teams.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

They're probably both squeak in. Unless the Chiefs get to 11.

[Brett Vesely]

I tell you what, this goes out. I think the best bet of the week this week is going to be.

[Dale Hellray]

So we're down with the frauds.

[John Holmberg]

You're down with frauds in the.

[Brett Vesely]

It's your fraud team. I think the Chiefs are going to win in cover against Denver and even if legally they don't, the NFL wants to get that all close.

[John Holmberg]

That's a different story.

[Brett Vesely]

They got closer. They don't want Denver running away with that division and they don't want Kansas City potentially not making the playoffs.

[John Holmberg]

5 and 4 and they've outscored their opponents by 80 points. The Chiefs, somehow.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And the games they've lost, they've been tight. The games they've won, they've blasted the Raiders 38 to nothing or whatever it was.

[Brett Vesely]

When you, when you talk about how Kansas City's got to get going, it's not a must win, but it's an important game for them.

[John Holmberg]

You don't want to fall to 5 and 5 and then start chasing wild cards because then you're just going to run out of gas.

[Brett Vesely]

So for me, I just realized, oh my God, I gotta. I gotta save up my nickels and dimes and put everything I got on Kansas City this week.

[John Holmberg]

Bottom line is. Yeah, I think the usual suspects end up.

[Dale Hellray]

It's just weird when you think of the Three best records in the AFC belong to New England, Indianapolis and Denver. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And who will be in the NFC or the AFC championship game? Buffalo kids will be the other team. Yeah. It's crazy that I enjoy that because that's a thing that we can go back on and say, how wrong were we?

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

What happened to the Patriots?

[Dale Hellray]

Who was the real fraud?

[John Holmberg]

So mark this particular episode for who were we the frauds or did we nail some of that? I think we got a little bit of that right. We're out of time.

[Dale Hellray]

One. One last quick thing, because I don't want to wait till next. Next we're talking. Yeah. What about the two pitchers that got arrested by the FBI.

[John Holmberg]

The Guardians. Pitchers that were dirt and balls on $450,000 bets on walking guys or throwing one in the dirt. We talked about how hard it would be to fix baseball.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah, we just talked about that last week.

[John Holmberg]

Did not ever think pitchers by pitch would have giant bets.

[Brett Vesely]

Well, I said it was more difficult for a ump. Someone reffing the game.

[John Holmberg]

We all said baseball's the hardest one.

[Brett Vesely]

To fix, and it's still being happening.

[John Holmberg]

But if you manage to say, oh, yeah, you can bet balls and strikes. Right. And you put 400 grand on a.

[Dale Hellray]

Ball, pretty soon I think you're going to find a lot of prop bets. Was it taken away?

[John Holmberg]

I agree completely.

[Brett Vesely]

Was it? Was it. It wasn't 450,000 on one pitch.

[John Holmberg]

No, but I'm saying I just made an exaggerated number. But an accumulation of crazy bets on one pitch.

[Brett Vesely]

I tell you what, if you're a. If you're a criminal and you're. You're in the cahoots with this and you want to get caught as fast. Put $450,000 on a. Is it going to be a baller?

[Dale Hellray]

I mean, like.

[John Holmberg]

You mean like the way someone's gonna.

[Brett Vesely]

Gonna scope that one out very closely with the Very fast.

[Dale Hellray]

Oh, God.

[John Holmberg]

Is your podcast out yet, Dave? Are people allowed to see it yet?

[Brett Vesely]

Next week we'll talk.

[John Holmberg]

All right. It's going to give a plug for it.

[Brett Vesely]

No, it's okay. Next week we'll talk about it.

[John Holmberg]

We don't have five minutes with Madman today. Did you have something for us real quickly?

[Brett Vesely]

In sports related, the ioc.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, I'm John, There's Dale. This show's over now. Here's five minutes with Dave Nash. Brace yourself.

[Brett Vesely]

Make it a minute. The IOC has just banned trans from. I don't know what. That's right. Transgender.

[John Holmberg]

They can't have transmissions. No transmissions. Yeah.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

IOC ban transmissions from competition in the Olympics.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Brett Vesely]

Does that make sense?

[John Holmberg]

It's always made sense.

[Dale Hellray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

The opposition didn't make sense.

[Brett Vesely]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Making. Having a debate over this never made sense.

[Brett Vesely]

So at least there's some common sense prevails. Right, but so when you talk about the conspiracy theory, whatever, the fact that they were trying to pull this nonsense off to tell people, yeah, men and women, they should compete equally. That's not a chance.

[John Holmberg]

But we got so lost in the fact that, well, it's not really a man. It's like.

[Dale Hellray]

Kidding me.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. This was never a debate and it became one and I still don't know how. So it's good. I didn't know that the IOC has, has pulled off and said, look, we gotta stop this.

[Brett Vesely]

And, and they're, they're scratching their heads. They come up with these, you know, cockamamie facts like. Oh yeah, we, we're, we're noticing that, that men have an advantage physically. Really?

[Dale Hellray]

Wow.

[John Holmberg]

Like that Iranian boxer or she. Iraqi or Iranian. Or he.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And he just beat the tar out of these women. He's the same weight.

[Dale Hellray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

But I can tell you right now, having done a lot of boxing and I used to be a sparring partner for a lot of guys that were trying to go pro and they were usually little and I was the bigger guy to put weight on them and do stuff like that. You know, I'm fighting guys 127 pounds that hit me so hard, I couldn't see for a week. And then I would get in there with the girl fighters. 127 pounds, 145 for one of them. She actually did some damage like in the, in the world. And her punches didn't hurt at all. Same. I mean, she was 20 pounds heavier than this other guy that couldn't break in. And he was a literally127. He broke my nose and dislocated my jaw in the first two punches.

[Dale Hellray]

Well, I mean, for those people who are black and white and whatever. We're not dissing women. No, we're not. At least I'm not dissing women. I don't think any one of the three of us are. It's just that is the fact, is the fact, it's.

[John Holmberg]

When you've done it, you can put 145 pound woman, 145 pound man next to each other and the strength is extraordinarily different. So in boxing, especially in sports like that, when you're going weight class doesn't make any sense to me. It's the argument that people have had in the past of like the top 10 speeds for the 100 meters or whatever. What do they call it? 100 meters in the swimming and running. Yeah, the Usain Bolt run race. It's top 10 guys are black, top 10 times are black. Does that mean that we should have a white category or something like that? I mean, that women could get involved in? No, we run everybody together in that category, in the male category, in the female category, because the top 10 speeds for the next 10 still are faster than the fastest woman of all time. And those are the second best. So, yeah, you start getting into like gender and race and all this other stuff. Stuff you gotta. You've gotta realize there's gonna be differences in certain areas and you can't really explain it. But men and women, that's an easy one. That's an easy one. So if we started to differentiate by that ILC would be making rules for every new Olympics. There are crazy. I hate that stuff. Well, that way, that. Good one, Dave. You got me fired up with one sentence. Nice job.

[Brett Vesely]

We'll do yours next.

[John Holmberg]

No, I don't have any. But that's a good one right there because I get tired of that being an argument at all.

[Brett Vesely]

Exactly.

[John Holmberg]

And you broke the news to me just now. The IOC did good. Well done. All right, my name's John. There's Dale. And former media host and personality and entrepreneur and crazy person Dave Nash segment. Now that's the sports thing. We're done. We'll see you next week. It's John Holmberg here from the morning sickness for lifechangealone.com I had a friend text me the other day and he was skeptical. He was like, there's got to be a catch, man. Math is absolute. It can't lie. So we went to the computer, put his info in the little equation life, and found out that his loan, which he owes $523,000 over the next 27 years on, could be paid off in eight years and he will save 389,000 in interest. That's insane. You should be skeptical. Ask questions, then you'll see for yourself. It's not magic. It's just math. Lifechangerloan.com Feed a family, make a kid.

[Dale Hellray]

Happy and win a new car.

[John Holmberg]

It's the 25th anniversary of Operation Santa Claus. Presented by Sanders, Ford, Sanderson, Lincoln U haul and ABC15. Make a donation of food, new toys, child size, clothing or money and you.

[Brett Vesely]

Could win a new Ford F150 truck.

[John Holmberg]

Or Lincoln Corsair SUV. For more info go to givetothecloth.com Sanderson.

[Brett Vesely]

Ford Lincoln and ABC15.