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Home Cooking
Thanksgiving, Part 2: Umami and Me (with Tracy Clayton and our families)
00:57:55
Acid redux.
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, it's Christopher Kimball from Milk Street Radio. Sounds like I'm bragging. And I am. We're the number one most downloaded food podcast in America. You know, Milk Street Radio travels the world in search of the very best food stories. You'll hear about smuggling eels on the black market, the secret intelligence of plants, and insider tips to eating in Paris. And every week, listeners call in with their toughest culinary mysteries. Discover a world of food stories by searching your podcast app for Mill Street Radio.
- [00:30]
B
Hey there everyone. It's Samin and I have some sad news to share before we get to the episode. After Rishi and I finished recording last week, his mom, Kantha Aunty, passed away. As you can imagine, it's been a terribly heartbreaking time for Rishi and Sumesh uncle and the entire Hirway family, and also for me, who's become something of an ancillary hereway over the years. Rishi asked me, our team and a couple friends to get this episode finished so we could get it out before Thanksgiving as a tribute to his mom. And it just so happened that we'd already recorded a bunch of interviews with our family members. And so there already happened to be several mentions of his mom's cooking in the episode. So it feels like a really nice way to honor her. I also wanted to read you a couple lines from the obituary Rishi wrote about her. Kantha was an excellent cook and a lover of spicy cuisine from all over the world. She expressed her love through cooking and insisted on feeding everyone who came into her house. When the Hirways began an annual tradition of hosting Thanksgiving dinner in their home in Peabody, Kantha would make Indian food alongside the American staples, which were less familiar to her. A highlight for her family and the friends who came to visit was her mango pie, a hybrid dessert that would one day be written about in the New York Times. Adapted from her recipe, it was a dish that represented her well, making a home in America, but always connected to Indian culture, food and community. Rishi and I asked my editors at the New York Times to take the mango pie recipe down from behind the paywall for the holiday so that we could encourage you to make the dish as a tribute to Kanti. We'll link to the recipe over on the resources page, but know that nothing will make Rishi and the whole Hirway family happier this week than sharing a little bit of Kanta Aunty's cooking with you. And if you feel so inclined, you can make a donation in her name, Kanta Hirway, to your Local food bank. She would have loved that. You know, at the end of every episode, I say, stay healthy, eat well, and take care of each other. And right now, I mean that more than ever. Okay, so onto the show. I hope it brings you some comfort and joy. This is home cooking with Samin, Auntie Rishi Mama and Miyasha Poole. Thanksgiving family edition. I'm Samin Nosrat.
- [03:11]
A
And I'm Hrishikesh Hirway.
- [03:13]
B
And we're home cooking.
- [03:14]
A
And that was Asha, my five year old niece. And this is episode 13 of our four part series, which is also part two of our Thanksgiving saga. And. And like Asha said, this is our family edition.
- [03:25]
B
And just like Thanksgiving, we've got way too many guests.
- [03:29]
A
Besides Asha's cameo just now, we're gonna be joined later by Samin's twin brothers. Very exciting. Plus, my dad's gonna come back to say hi. And we're gonna be joined by our friend Tracy Clayton. Not family by blood, but she's part of the podcast family.
- [03:47]
B
Yeah, we've been begging her to be on the podcast ever since we started it.
- [03:51]
A
In the last episode, we answered a bunch of questions that people had sent in and we talked about foods that people were trying to make for Thanksgiving. This time, Samin, I wanted to ask you more about the foods that you are personally most excited about for Thanksgiving, what they are and how you make them.
- [04:09]
B
I'm excited to talk about this because like I said, I did not grow up with this holiday, so I don't have a lifelong relationship to it. But as we all know, I love to eat. Probably the thing I look forward to the most is making the stuffing, which I think probably a lot of people feel that way. And not to like bash box stuffing mix, but that was what I had a relationship to at first, and I really didn't get box stuffing mix. I really did not understand that. And so it wasn't until I had homemade stuffing and then eventually got to make it that I was like, what the heck is this?
- [04:49]
A
Wait, okay. So stuffing is my favorite part of the meal, being culinarily, you know, behind a few steps, I go box stuffing mix as my starter.
- [04:58]
B
Okay, tell me about your relationship to stuffing. Let's start with there.
- [05:01]
A
First of all, it's a love, love relationship.
- [05:03]
B
Okay.
- [05:04]
A
I love stuffing. Stuffing loves me back.
- [05:06]
B
Okay.
- [05:08]
A
We deeply understand each other.
- [05:10]
B
Awesome. Do you have a brand allegiance?
- [05:13]
A
Pepperidge farm stuffing was kind of the iconic stuffing for me, but that's always just the base for me because for me, what I really love and this probably goes with my feelings about upma actually, is I want it to have a little bit of crunch to it. And so I will chop and saute onions. And I also add cashews.
- [05:32]
B
Very Indian of you.
- [05:34]
A
Yeah. I mean, our Thanksgivings were these Indian.
- [05:39]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [05:39]
A
You know, crossovers. And so my mom used to make the stuffing and that was how she would make it. You know, she would add these cashews and onions to it. And maybe she even. I'm not even sure. Maybe she. She might have even done like a who on, like podni, you know, like with like all the spices. Yeah. Some mustard seed and stuff like that, but there's still a little bit of that. This is my way to get to a really delicious outcome quickly. You know, I'm kind of maximizing. I'm trying to be pragmatic and get as much flavor as I can with as little effort as I can. But I'm open to you helping me step up my stuffing game.
- [06:13]
B
Well, can I ask another question? This is going to expose my naivete when it comes to box stuffing mix, but isn't box stuffing mix literally just essentially pre made croutons and seasonings?
- [06:26]
A
Yeah.
- [06:27]
B
Okay. So it's just like some spices that you're paying for.
- [06:30]
A
You're paying for some spices mixed in with some stale bread.
- [06:33]
B
And probably some MSG is in there too, I would guess.
- [06:35]
A
Hopefully.
- [06:36]
B
One would hope.
- [06:37]
A
Yeah.
- [06:40]
B
To me, I think probably besides stock, I think the essential flavorings in a stuffing that really define Thanksgiving are celery to me. Celery. You cannot have stuffing without celery. So I would add celery to your onion. That smell of celery and onion cooking in butter is like the smell of Thanksgiving to me. And then I think thyme and sage. I think thyme, sage, celery and butter is stuffing to me.
- [07:07]
A
Okay.
- [07:08]
B
And probably I would guess in that dried herb mix is dried sage and dried thyme.
- [07:14]
A
Yeah.
- [07:14]
B
But I think fresh sage and fresh thyme would add something else too. And those are good herbs to have on hand for all sorts of Thanksgiving dishes.
- [07:23]
A
Okay, what about, you know, some of the essential ingredients that come in the box stuffing that you're missing? Like, where is your reduced iron, niacin, thiamine, you know, like the mononitrates. When do you add the folic acid?
- [07:37]
B
Yeah, when do I add that stuff? Oh, man. Well, I will say my favorite version of stuffing has prunes that are soaked in stock and. Or white wine and prunes are really healthy, so. And also very good for your Digestion, as we all know. So they probably have all that stuff.
- [07:55]
A
What is the bread that you use in your stuffing?
- [07:58]
B
My mantra is work acid in at every opportunity. And so when it comes to stuffing, I really prefer to use a sourdough bread, because then even the base of the stuffing has some tang in it. So I'll choose, like, you know, a kind of a country loaf if I can get my hands on it, and I'll get that in the earlier part of the week. To let it grow stale after a day, maybe I would tear them into pieces that are about the same size in order to let them, you know, get stale as rapidly as possible and evenly as possible. I would then like, lay them out in a single layer on a cookie sheet. And even then, like, if the oven's not on, I might just, to save space, just put them on the oven rack and let them dry out. And then the drier the bread is going to be, the more absorbent it's going to be, and the more delicious stock and flavor it will be able to absorb. And the more stocky flavor that absorbs, the more flavorful and delicious delicious your stuffing will be.
- [08:57]
A
Do you ever make the sourdough?
- [08:58]
B
Absolutely not. Under no circumstances.
- [09:01]
A
What about this year? Because you've been doing a lot of sourdough baking.
- [09:05]
B
That was, like, episode two, and then it kind of ended. I mean, the sourdough starter is still existent in my house. It's dormant, though. I will say I remember I really wanted to do a thing called, like, stuffing of the month or whatever, because I think you could have a seasonal, like, monthly stuffing. We should have stuffing of the month club.
- [09:23]
A
Oh, that would be good.
- [09:24]
B
You know, there could be a springtime one with asparagus, and there could be a summertime ones with cherry tomatoes and eggplant.
- [09:29]
A
Huh.
- [09:30]
B
It's essentially just like, what tastes good with bread.
- [09:36]
A
By the way, if I can take a little bread tangent just for a second, why not? I know we've talked a little bit about freezing bread in the past, but that has now become our strategy in the house. Lindsey bakes the bread as soon as it comes out and has, like, finished resting and cooling. Basically, we immediately slice it and put it in a bag and put it in the freezer. And then anytime we want to have a piece of bread, we pull it from the freezer and go straight to the toaster. Straight to the toaster. And it is, like, as fresh as the first day.
- [10:07]
B
Yeah, perfect.
- [10:08]
A
Right out of the freezer. Even, like, a week later, it really. It's like a little time machine where that super fresh bread can now last in that super fresh state for days and days and days and days.
- [10:19]
B
The freezer. It's a time machine.
- [10:22]
A
Exactly.
- [10:23]
B
I feel like you could be a voiceover artist for freezers. Can you do a little freezer commercial right now?
- [10:27]
A
Yeah. Time. It's a tyranny that haunts us all. The ravages of age are endless and inexorable. But one machine stands in its way. The freezer.
- [10:47]
B
Agents. He's available. Call me.
- [10:52]
A
Okay. We have a stuffing related question that I wanted to play you. This comes from Kate.
- [10:57]
C
I'm wondering if there's any way to make stuffing cooked outside a turkey taste as good as stuffing cooked inside a turkey. In my family, the stuffing cooked inside the turkey is never enough for everyone. So we always have to make two batches and the stuffing cooked in a separate dish. Dish is always just so much less delicious than the stuffing cooked inside the turkey. I've also heard that cooking stuffing inside the turkey is not that safe in terms of bacteria in case it doesn't get hot enough. So do you have any ideas about how to make all the stuffing outside the turkey but still have it be as delicious?
- [11:30]
B
Mm. I do have so many ideas. I've never actually made the stuffing in the turkey because I've heard that it's dangerous and because I'm a control freak and I want to control the cooking of each element of my meal. And the best way to do that is by cooking things individually. And so I've never seen stuffing cooked in a turkey, and I've never eaten it.
- [11:53]
A
You've never eaten it?
- [11:54]
B
No, I've never, like, been at a meal where it's been cooked that way.
- [11:58]
A
Oh. So I have had both versions.
- [12:00]
B
Oh, do tell.
- [12:01]
A
In my family, we would always do two. My mom is a lifelong vegetarian, so we always have lots of vegetarian options for Thanksgiving. But I would say there is definitely a difference. Even though I'm not much of a turkey eater, one thing I'll say is when the stuffing is cooked inside the turkey, it has, like, a dark meat kind of flavor to it. It's definitely, like, got some umami to it, like a salty umami that I think people probably really love and definitely does not get replicated in the stovetop stuffing, even though that is my main stuffing.
- [12:34]
B
Interesting.
- [12:35]
A
What I would often do is do the outside of the bird stuffing, but then I would still put gravy on it.
- [12:41]
B
Yeah. I mean, that's essentially where I'm headed here.
- [12:44]
A
Okay.
- [12:44]
B
So, Kate, I think the answer to your question is the same as the advice that I would give to anyone making stuffing, which is to make as flavorful a stock as possible. And I think that this is also helpful for making the gravy, too. And this is something I do the day before Thanksgiving or even two days before. I think it's really important to have a lot of bones for making a really delicious gravy and a really delicious stock. And sometimes just that, like, what you cut off your turkey is not enough. But what makes a rich stock is bones. That's what makes something really gelatinous and gives it that sort of jelly ish quality when it's cold.
- [13:31]
A
Yeah.
- [13:32]
B
And also what makes it dark. And that umami flavor that you were talking about, Rishi, you know, like that rich, meaty, sort of dark meat flavor that comes from the roasting. So sometimes that might mean buying an extra turkey wing, buying an extra turkey neck, buying some extra chicken feet, buying some extra chicken bones. And you want to have some raw bones. You might want to have some roasted bones that maybe you've been saving from all your roast chickens that you've been eating. You're going to be making, you know, what chefs call, like, a double stock. So, like, this is that one time a year where we're home cooked cooks do restaurant level cooking. In a way, they're doing, like, French culinary stuff. So if you really want to do it, like the real way, what you do is you make a regular chicken stock or a regular turkey stock or a mixed chicken and turkey stock, and then you have some separate extra bones that you roast, and you get them really dark. So I would do that on a baking sheet at 400 degrees and get those bones, like, really golden and beautiful. Maybe even add some onion and. And some carrot and some celery onto that tray and get everything really dark and beautiful. And maybe there's even some, like, little dark bits on the tray that you can deglaze with some water or white wine. And then all of that dark stuff goes into a stock pot and you pour the stock that you already made over it.
- [14:54]
A
Oh, and that's why it's the double stock.
- [14:55]
B
Yeah. And then you spend a whole second day cooking it a second time, and then it becomes a twice cooked stock. You might even reduce it a little bit and it becomes this incredibly rich, dark, flavorful thing.
- [15:08]
A
It's almost like reinvesting the dividends of a stock.
- [15:13]
B
Exactly.
- [15:14]
A
Now, can I trouble you for a vegetarian option? For anyone who might find your description of roasted bones. A little gruesome.
- [15:21]
B
Yeah.
- [15:22]
A
What could you do to get that same kind of really flavorful, rich umami, kind of deep flavor on your stuffing? At a purely vegetarian level, I would.
- [15:33]
B
Say I really hope you're not averse to mushrooms because I think that's the key. Again, Thanksgiving is a time when people really like to use luxury items.
- [15:42]
A
Yeah.
- [15:42]
B
And this time of year, there are a lot of chanterelle mushrooms available and certainly on the west coast and all sorts of other kind of wild mushrooms. But I have to say, like, I am so partial to the classic cremini, to the like button, brown button mushroom. I love a button mushroom. I love it. It's one of my favorites. So, yeah, I think the key is to make, again, a really flavorful stock and also to build as much umami into the stuffing foundation as well, as much as possible. And so vegetarian ingredients that are rich in umami, you know, definitely mushrooms are at the top of that list.
- [16:19]
A
People use mushrooms for gravy too. You can make a gravy out of mushrooms.
- [16:23]
D
Yeah.
- [16:23]
B
I think mushrooms are the answer to everything, unless you don't like mushrooms or are allergic to them.
- [16:28]
A
So can you give me the three sentence guide to making them vegetarian stock with mushrooms?
- [16:33]
B
Yeah, I would say you clean them up. So do a quick rinse, brown em, whether in the oven or on the stove, and then use them in your stock, you know, along with your other vegetables. And you want to make like, unlike a chicken stock, you really only need to simmer for about 40 minutes max. I would also sneak in a little bit of maybe tomato paste. That's another source of umami. I might even sneak in a little bit of nutritional yeast, Another little source of umami, if you're not averse to that. A little soy sauce sauce. Oh, kombu, the Japanese seaweed. That's also a great source of umami, which is a classic sort of thing to add to stocks and broths, which really has this kind of like, understated, almost invisible to the tongue when you taste it by itself. But then it's this kind of secret layer of umami. Huh. You know, when you taste it, along with other stuff, it heightens everything else. You don't have to do all of these, but these are all just like possible sources of umami that you could sneak in.
- [17:32]
A
Do you ever use a bouillon cube or is that cheating?
- [17:34]
B
No, absolutely. If you are better than bouillon, as we, you know, we started this whole podcast with that.
- [17:41]
A
Well, I hope that helps, Kate. I Think that that sounds like you've got a couple options to make some delicious stuffing that still follows the anal retentive side of Samin's control freak nature.
- [17:53]
B
I hope so.
- [17:54]
A
I'm getting some real juicy information straight from Samin's brain here. And so I feel like this would be a great time to invite your brothers on so I can get some more.
- [18:03]
B
Oh, we're going to talk to Pasha and Bahador, my younger brothers. They might have some bones to pick with me.
- [18:13]
A
Just add them to the stock.
- [18:15]
B
Just add them to the stock.
- [18:18]
A
Thank you guys for joining us. I'm so thrilled to finally meet you. I've heard so much about you. Since I don't get to hang out with the three of you together, I've at least gathered you here all on this recording.
- [18:28]
B
I mean, you're kind of like the fourth sibling, honestly, kind of. Pretty much.
- [18:33]
A
Then I have some catching up to do.
- [18:35]
B
Who's snoring? Oh, there's.
- [18:37]
E
I have like three bulldogs behind me.
- [18:39]
A
Yeah. Well, do you remember the first time you had anything that Samin ever cooked? Has she made food for you?
- [18:46]
E
Yes, I remember the chicken pot pie. It was the chicken pot pie in like second or third year when she came back. She was in Berkeley for second or third year, I remember. And we were all excited because she worked. She's like, oh, yeah, I worked at Shay's Panas and that's what we used to call it in our house. And it was like, I never had chicken pot pie that way, where you make like the biscuits, almost like dumplings on top. And I was like, this isn't chicken pot pie. I'm like, what is this?
- [19:12]
B
Because, you know, in my mind, I.
- [19:14]
E
Mean, we never even.
- [19:15]
B
I don't even. We never grew up having chicken. No.
- [19:17]
E
But in my mind, you picture that, like Marie Callender is, you know, the big thing with the lattices and stuff. And I was like, only later did I come to discover that that was like the bet. That was like the Ina Garten way of making chicken. Like, it was better. But when I was young, I was like, what is this garb?
- [19:35]
B
And so everyone was like, really nice job, Samin. And they're like, where's the rest of the meal? Where are all the condiments? Where's all the other stuff? And I was like, no, it's a one pot meal. I was like, I made the biscuits from scratch.
- [19:50]
A
And they weren't impressed.
- [19:51]
B
I mean, everyone was really nice about it, but it was just one of those, like, wah, wah, well, and it.
- [19:57]
E
Was like, a different spices that we weren't used to. You know, like, our palate was like, you know, cardamom and sumac and, like, Persian food. And, like, this is, like, totally different. This is, like, sage and, like, all this other stuff.
- [20:08]
B
Definitely, like, it was a mistake. I misjudged the audience, you know.
- [20:15]
A
Bahadur, do you have any memory of eating a dish that Samin made that you liked?
- [20:20]
F
The earliest memory I have is, I think, like, 2008 or something, give or take. I came up to Berkeley to actually visit a different friend, and I didn't even tell her I was coming here. And she was working at this place that doesn't exist anymore called Ecolo. I sort of, you know, figured out how to get there on the bus and went down one day and showed up. So I hung out in the kitchen, and she let me hang out, and it was cool. And at some point, she's like, well, what do you want to eat? So she, like, gave me the menu, and I, like, looked at all this stuff and sold this fancy Italian food that I have no experience with, no palate for because I'm, like, a pleb. And so I'm looking at the thing, and, like, she's like, oh, you should order the oxtail. And I'm looking at this one, like, oxtail. Like, I didn't even register with me when I see the last thing on the menu, which is there for, like, all of, like, the jerks who have, like, no sophistication and no culture. It's like, there's a hamburger. And I'm like, at the time, I was really into hamburger, so I'm like, yeah, I'm going to order the hamburger. And she, like, made fun of me for ordering the hamburger. So it's a really good hamburger. And then. So I started eating my hamburger, and then she, like, takes it out of my hand, starts eating it, and she's like, yeah, it's a really good hamburger.
- [21:26]
B
I don't remember that, but I believe you.
- [21:29]
A
Samin and I have bonded a little bit over our moms, both our moms being really excellent cooks and also very critical people. You three didn't grow up celebrating Thanksgiving traditionally, but I know food was such a big part of your family life. Is there a day when you really get nostalgic for being around each other and eating a big meal together?
- [21:51]
E
I'd say, like, Persian New Year.
- [21:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Our version of that probably is Persian New Year. Yeah. Which is really, like, all holidays wrapped into one, you know?
- [21:59]
E
Pretty much, yeah.
- [22:01]
B
Two week long celebration that happens in spring.
- [22:03]
A
Yeah.
- [22:04]
E
And there's a lot of food involved.
- [22:05]
B
And there are so many different sort of food related parts of it. And we had so much joy and laughter. Bar. Remember when Pasha almost set the house on fire on aid?
- [22:15]
F
Wasn't that me?
- [22:17]
B
No, it was Pasha.
- [22:18]
E
What did I do? I was a pyro, but what did I do?
- [22:21]
B
You lit the Kleenex on fire from one of the candles at the half scene.
- [22:25]
E
Cause I like to watch the Kleenex rise.
- [22:27]
G
And then.
- [22:31]
B
It was fascinating because there's like a special sort of table filled with all sorts of things, symbolic items for Persian New Year. And one of them is candles and fire and having light. And Pasha fully was and still continues to be a pyromaniac. So I think he was in second grade and he lit a Kleenex on fire and then dropped it on the rug. And we just had this like burnt spot on our cream colored rug for like years.
- [22:58]
A
The reason I was asking is because every year we would host Thanksgiving that was like the big gathering at our house where we would cram like 40 or 50 Indians into like a 1200 square feet. And so every year, this is the time of year when I get really. I mean, I miss my family all the time, but especially on Thanksgiving. It just doesn't feel the same when we're not together. But the one good thing about having this kind of virtual holiday is we get to celebrate it with all kinds of people who we might not normally see. So thank you both for coming and joining us and talking to me.
- [23:32]
B
So fun.
- [23:32]
A
And filling in some of the jigsaw puzzle pieces of my picture of Samin too, for sure.
- [23:37]
F
Thanks for having us, Samin.
- [23:39]
A
I feel closer to you already.
- [23:41]
B
Wow.
- [23:41]
A
Well, then I guess it's only fair for me to return the favor. I thought we could talk to my dad since now he's a veteran of this podcast.
- [23:48]
B
Your dad is basically the third host of this show.
- [23:50]
A
Yeah, he really is. And he could give some insight into some of where my Thanksgiving ideas came from because he'll remember better than I do.
- [23:57]
B
Oh, I can't wait to hear.
- [23:59]
A
Okay, let's talk to my dad, who's by the way, a food scientist whose background is in meat. And so we should ask him some turkey questions.
- [24:06]
B
Oh, it'll be kind of like calling the Butterball hotline.
- [24:09]
A
That's right. Hi, dad.
- [24:11]
G
Hi, Rishi. And hello Samin.
- [24:14]
B
Hi, Sumesh.
- [24:14]
A
Uncle dad, when was the first time you ever cooked a turkey for Thanksgiving?
- [24:18]
G
So we purchased our house was 81 when Rishi was about 2 years old. And then we had excellent neighbors. So the company I used to work, KM Foods, they used to give to all the employees turkey to take home for Thanksgiving. So in 82, we gave it to our neighbors. And then they said, how about coming and joining us? And their kitchen, anything was so small, but they had accommodated all of us. And then when we were walking from the backyard from their house, Rishi said, dad, how about making turkey ourselves next year? You can do it. So I said, okay. And then I looked it up. The mom's cookbooks and the cookbook she had was Joy of Cooking.
- [25:06]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [25:07]
G
And I looked at the recipe for marinating turkey, and we used that recipe to make the first time turkey in our house in 83.
- [25:17]
A
Since then, you've made turkey pretty much every single year up until the first Thanksgiving that you spent here at our house when you and mom came to visit me and Lindsay. And I remember I said, dad, as the turkey expert, do you want to make the turkey this year? And you said, no.
- [25:34]
G
I said, since I am in your house, it should be made your way.
- [25:38]
A
You know, it was amazing. It was the first time I had ever seen my dad not take on the responsibility. You know, like, my dad's normal way of operating is that he will do everything for everybody whether you want him to or not. This was the first time ever in my life that I'd seen my dad sort of step back and say, yeah, you know what? It's not my problem this year. I'm a guest. You all can figure it out. And it made me so happy.
- [26:09]
B
Oh, I don't know.
- [26:10]
A
To see my dad assert something that he actually wanted, like, to give himself a break. It was awesome.
- [26:15]
B
Oh, that's amazing.
- [26:16]
G
Also, the idea was like, I want to taste the turkey different way than what normally I have made it. You know, that's true.
- [26:26]
A
Okay, well, dad, thanks so much. Happy Thanksgiving.
- [26:28]
B
Happy Thanksgiving.
- [26:29]
G
Happy Thanksgiving.
- [26:31]
B
To keep up with all of Dr. Sumesh Hirway's antics, you can follow him on Instagram, which I have to say is mostly just a thread of me.
- [26:42]
A
It's true.
- [26:43]
B
You are.
- [26:45]
A
You dominate his Instagram feed. That I. And I will say I'm definitely not at all jealous. Okay, so we've talked about turkey with my dad. We talked about stuffing. What else is on your ideal Thanksgiving table?
- [27:00]
B
Okay, this is the last time I'm gonna talk about acid, and I'm not talking about lsd, because I've never actually had that. So.
- [27:09]
A
Okay. LSD in this case stands for last samin dish.
- [27:12]
B
Y last savine dish. So I really feel like cranberry sauce, as wonderful as it is, apparently is divisive, which I had no idea. You know, last episode, I realized some people don't even like it. So it is really important to offer another condiment, because the more condiments, the better. And condiments are sources of acid. So a while ago, I started just making a fried sage salsa verde and bringing that to the table because it was a way to incorporate, again, that, like, sagey Thanksgiving taste into a nice sort of vinegar, herby, fresh flavor, acidic, flavored thing to bring to the table that you could spoon over pretty much every dish, and it would just sort of elevate the flavors, bring some brightness, and, yeah, freshen everything up. It's pretty simple. I'll talk us through it really quickly here, and then we'll link to a recipe. So it's just some chopped parsley that I cover with olive oil and put in a bowl. And then I take some shallots and dice them up. If you don't feel like you can dice them, you could just mince them. And then I put those in another bowl and cover them with some red wine vinegar. That's called maceration. So I let them sit for, like, at least 15 minutes. Then comes the fun part, which is frying the sage. I use a small pan, so I'll have a bunch of picked sage leaves, like maybe 20 leaves, and I'll have those ready, and I'll have a little baking sheet or plate lined with paper towels ready. And then I'll set a little tiny frying pan with about, I don't know, a centimeter of canola oil or another sort of neutral oil in it on a medium flame. And I'll bring that up to temperature. And the way I test the temperature to know that it's ready to fry is I'll put one sage leaf in it, and as soon as that sage leaf sizzles, then I know that it's ready. So then I can add all the rest of the sage leaves or as many as will be submerged. You might have to do it in two batches because the pan is small, but I'm trying to not waste oil.
- [29:11]
A
Yeah.
- [29:12]
B
And then I'll use, like, a tongs or a slotted spoon to make sure everything sort of goes. And as soon as you put all those leaves in, it'll sort of go.
- [29:20]
A
And how do you spell that?
- [29:22]
B
K, H, L, G, A, L, G, L, G, L, Y. L, Y L.
- [29:25]
A
YL okay, got it.
- [29:28]
B
Kind of bubbles up and steams up.
- [29:31]
A
Sounds a lot like Popeye's laugh to me.
- [29:33]
B
No, that's a Yuji. Yuji. Yuji. Oh, my God. Okay, sorry. Anyway, so you fry your sage, and then you. As soon as the bubbles stop, you pull the sage out. And they might be kind of droopy. The leaves might seem kind of droopy and sad, but you let them dry out on your paper towel, and as soon as they cool off, they'll get really crispy and beautiful. So you sprinkle them with salt. And then right before you come to your table, you mix the parsley with the shallots that have the red wine vinegar on them. And you make sure that salsa verde mixture of, like, parsley, oil, shallots, and vinegar has salt in it and it tastes right. And then at the very last moment, you can crumble the fried sage into it. It crumbles into, like, the finest little airy thing. And so once it's in the salsa, it kind of crumbles and dissolves and becomes part of the parsley. And then the fried sage melts into the olive of the salsa verde. And it's just so delicious. And it's so good.
- [30:40]
A
Awesome. Not only are we back with a new season of episodes, we've also got brand new home cooking merch. We finally put our tomato can home cooking logo on a shirt. You can get it as a T shirt or a sweatshirt or a tank top or even a onesie for little baby home cooks. Plus, there's a tote bag with the drawing of the round salt can thing that has Samin and myself and our dogs Fava Bean and Watson on it. It is the pinnacle of tote bags. And there is a pun in there if you think about how pinnacle is spelled. There's also a special shirt in honor of our special recurring guest, the man with hot takes and a surprisingly high pitched giggle. My dad, known to Samin and all my close friends as Sumesh Uncle. He has his own shirt that says Team Sumesh uncle featuring three little jars of saffron. And he undoubtedly has very strong opinions about their color and flavor. And of course, there's also still the OG sweatshirt with the drawing of the can of sardines and the inexplicable shrimp Jenga forever shirt. And all of this stuff was illustrated by our wonderful Mamie Rheingold. And all of it is available at Homecooking Show Merch. Again, it's Homecooking Show Merch.
- [32:02]
B
If you're A fan of home cooking and the way it's all put together, but like me, you wish it had a little less Rishi in it. Let me recommend Rishi's other podcast, the brilliant and magical Song Exploder. Rishi is the host, but he cuts himself entirely out of the interviews he does with amazing musicians like Janelle Monae, Robin, Fleetwood Mac, U2, and more. So you just hear them talking about the creative process behind the making of one of their songs. I was actually a fan of Song Exploder way before Rishi and I became friends. Two of my favorite episodes are the ones with Solange and Sylvan Esso. The show is so carefully and thoughtfully made, and it's just really inspiring for anyone who creates things. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [32:47]
A
So for me, one of my essential dishes that we haven't talked about yet is cornbread.
- [32:52]
B
Ooh.
- [32:53]
A
But to get into it, I want to invite our friend Tracy Clayton to join us because she has some very different opinions about cornbread than I do.
- [33:00]
B
Oh, okay. Oh, I can't wait to hear.
- [33:02]
A
Tracy, thank you so much for joining us.
- [33:03]
D
Thank you for having me.
- [33:04]
A
I know you were a little bit reluctant because we were talking about how One Thing by Amerie is the best Thanksgiving song because you can say, gobble, gobble, gobble.
- [33:12]
D
Absolutely.
- [33:12]
A
And I brought up cornbread as a Thanksgiving dish, and you said, I'm going to test the limits of our friendship. Ready? I don't actually like cornbread. And before learning too much about why or who hurt you.
- [33:29]
D
This does not feel like a safe space.
- [33:31]
B
No, it's a safe space.
- [33:32]
A
It is a safe space. I thought, okay, let's wait to get into this and talk about it on the podcast. So thanks for doing it. I know you're doing it under duress, but.
- [33:40]
D
I am.
- [33:40]
B
I am.
- [33:41]
A
Why don't you like cornbread?
- [33:43]
D
I think it's just that I don't like the taste or the feel of it. I like bread. I love bread. See, now I feel like I have to defend myself. I love bread. Okay, that's not the. That's not the problem.
- [33:53]
B
I love bread, but cornbread's not really bread.
- [33:56]
D
Okay, I'm with you.
- [33:58]
B
I'll give you that.
- [33:59]
D
Okay, so starting to feel a little safer now.
- [34:01]
B
Yeah.
- [34:01]
D
But, yeah, it's the graininess of it. For me, it's very much a texture thing. I am a person who, if I can't get with the texture of something, even if it's delicious, like mushrooms, I don't mind the taste of mushrooms, but Mushrooms feel like a fungus, even though the only fungus I've eaten is a mushroom, if that makes sense. Like, I just. I don't enjoy it. So there's that. And I think that the consistency of cornbread and, like, it's cut into squares, and my brain is like, oh, cake. And so then when I take a bite, my brain's like, why did you do this? This is not cake. You lied to me. And I'm just like, I'm sorry. I don't. I don't know why I did this to you. But my one caveat is that I do enjoy sweet cornbread, and this includes the very controversial jiffy. I do like jiffy. I'm gonna say it.
- [34:54]
A
Wait, is this controversial? I didn't even know that it was controversial because, well, I was gonna say.
- [34:58]
D
I get yelled at all the time.
- [34:59]
B
For it, but aren't you from Kentucky?
- [35:01]
D
Yeah, that's probably why.
- [35:04]
B
Because you're a Southerner, and I think Rishi doesn't understand. Oh, Rishi doesn't understand, like, Southern cornbread. I think Grishi thinks jiffy is cornbread.
- [35:13]
D
Oh, okay.
- [35:14]
B
Yeah.
- [35:14]
A
You're like, I like sweet cornbread. Like, you carved out an exception. Like, I didn't know that cornbread could not be sweet.
- [35:21]
B
Well, from what I understand from, like, the homework that I've done in the south, the farther south you go in this country, the thinner and more crumbly and less sweet cornbread becomes interesting. And the farther north you go, and basically, the wider the recipe, the sweeter, the fluffier, and the more cakey it becomes. Hence, like, the more, like, jiffy cornbread mix or even more like a cake. And so what Rishi likes and what a lot of people like, what I like is almost a dessert.
- [35:55]
D
Yeah.
- [35:55]
A
Yes.
- [35:57]
B
And I almost think if you served Rishi what you grew up being served as cornbread, he probably wouldn't like it either.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah, no, that doesn't sound good at all. Dry, crumbly, and not sweet. Yeah, I don't want that. Cornbread, to me, is just, like, a slight variation on yellow cake.
- [36:13]
D
Yeah, I think that's how it should be.
- [36:15]
B
Something amazing happened earlier this year. I don't know. Are you familiar with the writer Ocean Vuong? He is an amazing writer and poet. His mom is from Vietnam, and he writes a lot about being, like, the child of an immigrant. And so he wrote this amazing Instagram story that I will link to, where he basically reveals the, like, philosophical quandary of a what is a cornbread and what is a Boston Market cornbread. Because he tells the secret recipe of Boston Market cornbread is that it's half cornbread mix, half vanilla cake mix. Ah. And that's why you like it so much. And that's why it's your ideal cornbread is because it literally is half yellow cake mix.
- [36:54]
D
That is the smartest thing I've ever heard of in my life, ever. Bravo. Basta Market. He's like, bravo.
- [37:01]
A
How about bravo to my palate also that.
- [37:03]
D
Yes, yes.
- [37:04]
A
I tasted it and I was like, I'm getting notes of vanilla cake.
- [37:07]
B
Vanilla taste a little Betty Crocker.
- [37:11]
A
Yeah.
- [37:13]
B
Literally, when I saw that, I was like, I need to go taste this magical cornbread.
- [37:18]
D
It's so good. It is so good. Now it's the market.
- [37:23]
A
So my cornbread largely relies on jiffy or some other store bought cornbread mix that is definitely sweetened. And then I add jalapenos to it and sometimes little bits of sweet corn kernels.
- [37:38]
D
Right.
- [37:38]
A
It is really good. And then sometimes I'll do a blueberry cornbread. What?
- [37:43]
D
Is that legal?
- [37:44]
B
Can you put blueberries in cornbread?
- [37:46]
D
Is it still cornbread then? I don't know.
- [37:48]
A
I don't know.
- [37:50]
D
You're pushing some limits here, but is.
- [37:52]
B
That what you do for Thanksgiving or is this just like a rift?
- [37:54]
A
No, the jalapeno cornbread is what I do for Thanksgiving. That is one of my Thanksgiving dishes. The jalapeno cornbread is so good. Cause it's sweet and spicy. It's like sweet and spicy cake.
- [38:04]
D
That I can understand.
- [38:05]
B
Tracy, can I ask, if you're not into cornbread, like, what do you look forward to at Thanksgiving?
- [38:10]
D
Oh, my goodness. I'm looking forward to my mom's au gratin potatoes.
- [38:15]
B
Ooh. Tell us. Describe them, please.
- [38:17]
D
Oh, my gosh. There's just so much cheese, and then there's more cheese, and then there's some milk, and then there's some more cheese and maybe some flour or something to thicken it up.
- [38:29]
B
Are they, like, brown and crispy on top and then creamy on the inside and cheesy on the inside?
- [38:33]
D
They're brown but not crispy.
- [38:36]
B
Okay.
- [38:36]
D
It's sort of like the whole thing is sort of kind of creamy with just the right firmness of potato.
- [38:40]
B
I like that.
- [38:40]
D
Also. Just a good old yeast roll.
- [38:43]
B
I love a yeast roll. Are they pull apart rolls at your house? Yes, I love a pull apart Mr. Schubert's.
- [38:49]
D
Yeah. Ooh.
- [38:50]
B
Oh, they're ones that you buy, not me.
- [38:52]
D
Oh, yes. If it's me, then I definitely buy them.
- [38:56]
A
Why is it called a yeast roll and not just a roll?
- [38:59]
B
Listen. It's a southern worm.
- [39:02]
D
I don't know.
- [39:03]
B
I assume there's yeast as opposed to cornbread, which doesn't.
- [39:07]
A
Is it for Thanksgiving, or do they do it for, like, yeaster?
- [39:10]
B
Oh, no, man.
- [39:14]
A
I'm just trying to understand where the name came from.
- [39:17]
D
I don't think it was yeaster.
- [39:20]
A
You know, they pull it out, and they look at the dough, and they're like, oh, he has risen.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah. Oh, no. It keeps happening.
- [39:26]
D
It keeps happening.
- [39:29]
B
Tracy, Help. Help me.
- [39:31]
D
Okay, okay. So to get. To get this car back on the road before it comes anywhere else. The great thing about a yeast roll, it comes in this little tin pan, and, like, the bread's all in there, and all you have to do is, like, put it in the oven and brown it. But what you do is you put some extra butter on the top first and then put it in the oven, and it comes out, and it's just brown and soft and just buttery and just delicious. I can eat, like. It's so good. It's so good. I could eat a pan right now.
- [40:00]
B
Do you make with the leftover ones the next day? Do you make a little, like, turkey and cranberry sauce sandwiches?
- [40:06]
D
No. Why have I never thought of that?
- [40:08]
B
Last year, I remember we. That's what we did with our leftovers was we made. Cause I had made Parker house rolls.
- [40:13]
D
You were sister Schubert.
- [40:14]
B
I was sister Schubert, yeah. And. And so with our leftover rolls, we made little t. Sort of like, you know, we just had all the leftover things. We made those turkey sandwiches, and it was so good.
- [40:27]
D
That sounds so good. But you know what? I think a reason why my brain has never gone there is because I have adopted one of my mother's traditions every Thanksgiving. What she likes even more than the actual Thanksgiving meal that she cooks the day of Thanksgiving is the turkey sandwich that she gets to have, like, immediate. Either immediately after dinner, because she's been serving everybody else and hasn't eaten yet, or the next day, and it's just like, plain old white sandwich bread, goo gobs of turkey mayo. Or I guess in Kentucky, it's probably. It might be Miracle Whip still, and just plain lays potato chips and, like, a beer. And it's the happiest that I see her.
- [41:08]
B
I love it.
- [41:10]
A
Happy Thanksgiving. Tracy.
- [41:11]
B
Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you so much for joining us. Us. I'm really glad we could get down to the bottom of this cornbread mystery.
- [41:19]
D
Yeah. Thank y'.
- [41:20]
B
All.
- [41:21]
A
Tracy Clayton is the co host of two great podcasts that are out right now. One is my 90s playlist, and the other is Back Issue, which I love.
- [41:30]
B
I love Back Issue. So good.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah.
- [41:33]
B
So fun.
- [41:33]
A
I mean, as you just heard, she is a delight.
- [41:35]
B
She's so.
- [41:36]
A
All of her projects are fantastic. Samin and I are devotees of her podcast Another Round, and you can follow her on Twitter where she is, again, a delight. Or on Instagram, she is brokeymcpoverty, which.
- [41:50]
B
Is also maybe the greatest handle of all time.
- [41:55]
A
All right, well, Samin, rounding out my traditional Thanksgiving is something you know very well, mango pie. I'm sure we've talked about mango pie on. On our show before, right? We definitely have.
- [42:05]
B
We probably have talked about it, but we've never told the origin story.
- [42:08]
A
Well, mango pie is something that I grew up with as a traditional Thanksgiving dessert, But then I introduced it to you, and you ended up writing about it for the New York Times, so I feel like it might be nice if you tell the origin story of the mango pie.
- [42:24]
B
Okay, so the year was 1985, and Kantha Hirway, Rishi's mom, started making mango pie around the time when Rishi's family started hosting a hybrid Thanksgiving at their home. Once they purchased a home in Peabody. Peabody, which is the weird way that Massachusetts people pronounce Peabody. And it's near the Pepperidge Farm store.
- [42:53]
A
The Pepperidge Farm outlet in Middleton.
- [42:55]
B
Yes.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah, the Pepperidge Farm store is wicked close to pv.
- [43:01]
B
Yes, exactly. And so the mango pie was made with a Keebler crust and Cool Whip and Philadelphia cream cheese and one can of Alphonso mango puree. And then you mix that ingredients with gelatin, pour them into two crusts, and then. Ta da. You have mango pie, which is the perfect hybridization of American and Indian traditions and flavors at this holiday.
- [43:33]
A
It's kind of like key lime pie in its texture and presentation, only instead of that sort of bright green color, it's a bright orange color. And instead of tasting like key lime on steroids, it tastes like mango on steroids.
- [43:47]
B
And Rishi and his friends would be in his room playing, like, video games. And then at the end of the night, like, he'd come out and he'd be like, okay, I'm just gonna eat one little slice. And then he'd go back to his room, and then he'd come back and be like, I'm just gonna eat one more little slice. And then by the end of the night, he'd eaten three quarters of the pie. Yeah, but it is very cloud like, so you don't actually feel kind of. You don't really feel gross because it's very light.
- [44:09]
A
No, it's true. It's so light.
- [44:11]
B
It's like mango air.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah, exactly. That is absolutely a great summary of mango pie. But then in recent years, my mom's health has not been great, and she's not able to make all these delicious things anymore. And we've talked about that a little bit. It's why my dad is now, you know, in charge of so much more of the cooking when. And air frying. And when it came time to have Thanksgiving, it fell upon me to make the mango pie for myself, or else I wouldn't really be having Thanksgiving.
- [44:42]
D
Aw.
- [44:43]
A
So a couple of years ago, I was making mango pie without any help from my family. They weren't coming that year. And as I was preparing the pies, it coincided with a visit from Samin. You came to see me at the house, and I got to tell you this whole story and explain the magic of mango p. Yes, it was delightful. And I was like, isn't this just the greatest symbol of the diaspora in. In food form? Here is my soul, my immigrant child soul in food form. It's a Thanksgiving pie made of mango.
- [45:19]
B
And I was like, your soul is made out of Cool Whip and Keebler crust.
- [45:24]
A
Absolutely. You did not yet know me so well.
- [45:27]
B
It's true, it's true, it's true. I was like, really?
- [45:30]
A
But I had trouble getting the mango pie to come out exactly right. So after you left, I started calling you and texting you and getting advice from you, and you helped me figure out how to make the pie. And I was like, samin, this should be a podcast. You should help people.
- [45:44]
B
And now here we are.
- [45:46]
A
So the mango pie is really integral to home cooking.
- [45:49]
B
Yes.
- [45:50]
A
Samin then took this recipe that she was charmed by and said, I'm gonna write about it for the New York Times. And I was like, great. And then she was like, oh, but I'm gonna, you know, fancy it up.
- [46:00]
B
No, that you're. Okay. First of all, I did not say I'm gonna fancy it up.
- [46:05]
A
Okay. You just did it without telling me.
- [46:08]
B
No. I think we have had this argument in this podcast before, probably.
- [46:13]
A
But just like a good Thanksgiving, we're gonna make people sit through an argument they've already heard before.
- [46:18]
B
Feels appropriate. I was like, I could not, for my column, like, for subscribers, make them pay for a recipe that used Cool Whip and a pre made graham cracker crust. So I made my own graham Cracker crust. And I used whipped cream.
- [46:34]
A
I mean, I guess I understood that. To me, I'm like, well, the way to make it happens to be your ingredients are a store bought graham cracker crust. And that's just one of the ingredients.
- [46:45]
B
But it was amazing because then when the fact checker called you, like. Cause I put your quote about, like, how offended you were in the story. And then when the fact checker called you, he was completely on your side. He was so charmed by. He was like, you know, he's right. And I was like, I have no problem with his opinion. I just.
- [47:06]
A
It was so wonderful for me and for my family to see this story.
- [47:11]
B
This bastardized mango pie in the New York Times.
- [47:15]
D
Yes.
- [47:16]
A
In whatever form. Just the fact it said that it was adapted from my mom. I mean, it was really a moving, moving thing and a beautiful thing that you did for my family. And that was before.
- [47:27]
B
That was before your dad had an Instagram otherwise.
- [47:29]
A
That's right, exactly. That was really the big first step of you becoming an official Hirway. That was really wonderful. And so if people want to see Samin's, you know, bougie, coastal elite version of the mango pie, then you can go on cooking.newyorktimes.com and find it.
- [47:49]
B
Listen, if you want, you can just substitute all of the graham cracker and butter for a Keebler, all the whipped cream for a Cool Whip, and leave the whatever other crap I put in there out. And then I just make it Rishi's way.
- [48:02]
A
The thing is, it's gonna be good no matter what. It's gonna be delicious. I hope all of you make it. It was so exciting when this article came out and all of a sudden people all over Instagram were making my mom's mango pie.
- [48:15]
B
It's amazing.
- [48:16]
A
And sometimes, like, tagging us in it. And so I could see just this, you know, stream of beautiful mango pies.
- [48:23]
B
I even made it on, like, morning television in England.
- [48:26]
A
That's. Yeah. It's unbelievable to see a little piece of my family history in that context. However, one of the things that you mentioned is that this recipe contains gelatin. And we actually got questions from a couple of folks asking about a vegetarian alternative.
- [48:43]
C
This is Rebecca from Chicago, and I have a question about the mango pie recipe. I would love to make it, except I keep kosher, and that means I don't use real gelatin because it's usually made from pork. So I'm curious about how do I make that recipe using vegetarian or vegan gelatin? Options. I know there's agar, which I think is made from seaweed. There might be some other stuff out there, and I would love to know how I can adapt that for myself being kosher. So thank you so much.
- [49:12]
B
Rishi, I'm gonna let you answer this. Cause your mom's vegetarian, and I know she has an answer.
- [49:17]
A
That's true. Every year, my mom would actually make another pie for herself that didn't have gelatin. Because, like I said, she's a lifelong vegetarian. And so she would use. Just like Rebecca mentioned, she would use agar Agar. Is that what it's called in English?
- [49:31]
B
It's definitely the Indian pronunciation, but I love it. So please continue.
- [49:37]
A
We would just replace the gelatin with that. And as Rebecca mentioned, it's made from seaweed, but I don't actually know that much about it. Can you explain more? First of all, let me ask you this. How do you pronounce it?
- [49:46]
B
I've always pronounced it agar agar.
- [49:48]
A
Okay.
- [49:48]
B
But that doesn't mean that it's right. I like your version.
- [49:52]
A
So you can use the agarugar at a one to one ratio as a replacement for gelatin powder. I think it totally works in my mind. The texture is not exactly the same, but it's certainly a great solution for anybody who otherwise couldn't eat this pie. It's still delicious.
- [50:06]
B
Sounds good to me.
- [50:07]
A
I hope everybody gets to have some mango pie for their Thanksgiving.
- [50:10]
B
Perfect. Okay, so while we're on the topic of pie, I thought I should tell everybody about the worst pie I ever made.
- [50:19]
A
Oh, God.
- [50:21]
B
This is such a classic story of, like, my relationship to recipes. So this was maybe at this point, maybe 10 years ago, I was having Thanksgiving with my friends, who are a bunch of cooks, and they said, oh, you go ahead and you make the pies. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, what pie does everybody want? And they were like, you know, we don't really like the Thanksgiving pies. Why don't you make chocolate pie? And I was like, okay, cool. I was like, chocolate pie sounds awesome.
- [50:46]
A
Yeah.
- [50:47]
B
And so I'm like, okay, awesome. Like, what is the best chocolate cream pie? So in my mind, I was like, okay. For my ideal chocolate cream pie, it would have a chocolate cookie crust. And then it would have, like, a delicious, chocolatey, sort of custard or chocolate pudding type filling. And then it would have, like, a wonderful whipped cream topping.
- [51:10]
A
I will pass on the whipped cream topping, but. Okay, you do you.
- [51:13]
B
Okay. And then it would have sprinkles for fun.
- [51:17]
A
Chocolate sprinkles.
- [51:19]
B
I mean, I don't think I had chocolate sprinkles at that time, so I think I used rainbow.
- [51:23]
A
Okay.
- [51:24]
B
That was really the peak, the version that existed in my mind. Everything went downhill from there. So first I had to go to multiple grocery stores because did you know you can buy the wafers that are, like, the equivalent of just the cookie part of the Oreo? They're like round chocolate cookies, and they're in most, but not all grocery stores.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah.
- [51:49]
B
I had to go to three grocery stores to find them. And then I got them, and I ground them up and made them into a cookie crust, as one does with graham crackers with butter and sugar.
- [52:01]
A
Sounds great so far, but I. I.
- [52:03]
B
Made the crust way too thick, and I baked it way too long, so it ended up being rock hard.
- [52:11]
A
Wait a second. You started off this story by saying this is an example of your relationship to recipes. Were you following a recipe?
- [52:18]
B
I looked up how to make a cookie crust. Cause what I do is I, like, look up multiple recipes, and then I sort of find fault with all of them individually. I'm like, oh, yeah, that. No, no, no, no. I'm gonna change this. I'm gonna change this. And so without. I haven't actually made them all. I just make, like, you know, on the fly judgments about why it's not gonna work.
- [52:40]
A
Yeah.
- [52:41]
B
And so then I ended up baking them for way too long and making the crust way too thick because I was worried that, like, the filling that I would eventually make was gonna be wetter or soggier. And I, you know, I had these sort of, like, reasonings in my mind.
- [52:56]
A
Right, right.
- [52:57]
B
So then next, instead of following some, like, you know, Internet's favorite chocolate cream pie, I knew that my favorite chocolate pudding that I love making is the tartine from the Tartine Cookbook. I love it so much.
- [53:10]
A
And had you made it before?
- [53:11]
B
I've made it a million times. Okay. But I always reduce the cornstarch in that recipe because I like it to be a little bit less stiff when I make the pudding. And because I don't like things to be super jello y and stiff. And I was like, oh, my dream is that this pie will be sliceable, but perfectly, like, just, like, melt in your mouth.
- [53:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, I can see where this is going.
- [53:34]
B
And so I did the same thing when I made the pudding for the thing. I, like, just took some amount of cornstarch out, and I was like, oh, this will be perfect. So I put them in the Fridge to set for many hours, and still they weren't quite set, like, when it was time to bring them over to my friend's house for Thanksgiving. At the time, I was living in this apartment that was in the back of this house. So I had to carry the pies out the back of the house, out the back gate. We were gonna walk to my friend's house, which was like two blocks away. And the pie just to the street was so wet and jiggly. But I was like, there's no way we can walk. Like, it's going to drip all the way from these two blocks. So I made us get in the car and drive, like, as slowly as possible. And then there were so many drips once we got there. There was like this path of chocolate drip from the, like, where I got out of the car, all the way.
- [54:24]
A
Down the sidewalk, because it was spilling out of the. Off the edge.
- [54:27]
B
Off the edge of the. Then just like, dripping all the way up, like, the path all the way to their front door, into their kitchen, in through their house, into their fridge. And at that point, I was like, I don't know what to do. So I just put it in the freezer in hopes, like, maybe it would freeze. Yeah, we ate the whole meal, and then it still wasn't really set. And so then we came out and then what had happened was because I had put the whipped cream and the sprinkles, you know, like, the color from the sprinkles had run into the whipped cream. Like, all, like, runny stained color. And these are all, like, famous chefs of the Bay Area. Right? Like, and then we're, like, cutting into this pie, and it looks so gross. And there's just like, runny chocolate pudding everywhere. And then the crust is rock hard. So it's like this runny chocolate mess. That's so gross. Yeah, this, like, stained artificial color sprinkle thing. This whipped cream that's, like, melty. Gross. And then the, like, rock hard crust that you cannot even cut through because it's so too thick and too overbuilt.
- [55:35]
A
Did anybody actually end up taking a bite of it?
- [55:37]
B
I don't know. I mean, it didn't actually taste bad, but it was just so disgusting looking. It was one of those things, like, I have never lived this down.
- [55:44]
A
It is so gross.
- [55:47]
B
And the chocolate drip sustained the sidewalk for, like, months.
- [55:51]
A
Oh, my God. It was like your walk of shame commemorated.
- [55:56]
B
I just lived in shame.
- [56:00]
A
That's great. Now that the Thanksgiving meal is done, do you have any other traditions that you do on Thanksgiving, like, the post Thanksgiving ritual or anything like that?
- [56:08]
B
Well, either pre or post, I like to go for a hike.
- [56:10]
A
What are you going to do this year?
- [56:12]
B
I'm really excited. I'm going back, actually, to Shrimp Jenga.
- [56:15]
A
Oh, Shrimp Jenga Palace. We should definitely make a sign for their ranch that says Shrimp Jenga Palace.
- [56:23]
B
I don't even think that they know that there are Shrimp Jengas at ground zero, because I don't even think that they've ever heard this podcast. Right.
- [56:30]
A
Probably better.
- [56:31]
B
Yeah. But it's a citrus ranch and a pomegranate ranch, so I'm excited to use some of those ingredients. I don't know. What about you?
- [56:40]
A
I'm glad we talked about leftovers with Tracy, because definitely one of the traditions for me is, you know, the fun of the day after Thanksgiving.
- [56:47]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [56:49]
A
So Thursday would be the day where we would cram all of our Indian friends into our house. Friday night would be the night that I would get together with my friends who were also, you know, home from school, you know, during college and stuff like that. That would be the day that we would all get together after having fulfilled our familial obligations. And usually we would play Celebrity.
- [57:08]
B
What's that game? I've heard of it, but I don't know that I know it.
- [57:11]
A
Celebrity is where you have two teams, but everybody puts a bunch of names of famous people in a bowl, and then you divide up, and then when it's your team's turn, you take a name out of the bowl, and you have to get your teammates to guess who you're talking about without. Without saying their name. Yeah. And it's really fun here. We can. We can play a sample round if you want.
- [57:32]
B
Okay. I'm not gonna be good at this.
- [57:34]
A
Wait. Okay, I'm gonna propose a version of this game that might be more palatable for Samin. We'll do famous foods instead of famous people.
- [57:42]
B
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [57:43]
A
Okay. Okay. So I'm gonna describe a food, and then you have to guess what it is.
- [57:46]
B
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [57:48]
A
Okay. So this is a sandwich.
- [57:52]
B
Blt.
- [57:52]
A
It was featured in the movie Chef, where Roy Choi.
- [57:56]
B
Hamburger.
- [57:57]
A
No. Roy Choi showed Jon Favreau. Yes. You're just guessing sandwiches.
- [58:05]
B
Yeah. I haven't seen that movie, so I don't know.
- [58:07]
A
Okay. Okay, you go now.
- [58:10]
B
Okay. This is a dessert. It's very famous from my big friend, Greek Wedding.
- [58:16]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [58:17]
B
And a special pronunciation.
- [58:19]
A
I haven't seen that movie. We're really missing each other's. References. Okay, okay.
- [58:22]
B
It's a dessert that has a hole in it.
- [58:24]
A
A donut?
- [58:25]
B
No, it has a special pan that it's baked in.
- [58:28]
A
Like an upside down cake.
- [58:30]
B
That's one of the words.
- [58:31]
A
It's a cake.
- [58:32]
B
It has a very funny spelling and that's why it has a funny pronunciation and that's why it was in My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
- [58:39]
A
It has a funny spelling. Oh, Bundt cake.
- [58:42]
B
Yes.
- [58:43]
A
Bundt cake. We did it. I really hope that this becomes a tradition. Now we could do.
- [58:50]
B
Oh my God.
- [58:50]
A
This could be alternative selection.
- [58:52]
B
Gonna start. Food celebrity. Yeah. That's it for this episode.
- [58:57]
A
Thanks so much for listening.
- [58:58]
B
And special thanks to Rishi's niece and my new best friend, Asha, who introduced the episode.
- [59:03]
A
Today we make this podcast with the help of Margaret Miller, Zach McNeese, Gary Lee and Casey Deal.
- [59:09]
B
And Mamie Rheingold makes the artwork. Extra special thanks to Helen Zaltzman and Ian Chellog, who stepped in to help edit this episode at the drop of a hat. If you don't already listen to both of their podcasts, you totally should. Helen's is called the Illusionist and Ian's is called Everything is Alive and they are both fantastic.
- [59:31]
A
We're a proud member of Radiotopia, a collective of independent podcasts. You can learn more about all the Radiotopia shows at Radiotopia fm.
- [59:39]
B
Let us know if you have any cooking related questions, especially if they're cookie related.
- [59:44]
A
That's right, we're doing a cookie themed episode.
- [59:46]
B
Next time just record a voice memo and send it to us@alittlehomecookingmail.com Our website.
- [59:52]
A
Is homecooking show where you can find recipes and transcripts for all of our episodes.
- [59:57]
B
You can follow Rishi on Twitter and Instagram rishiheerway and Samin is Owsamine and Sumesh Uncle Ishheerway.
- [60:05]
A
Yeah. If you need even more Samin in your life, follow his feature.
- [60:09]
B
And if for some reason you still haven't gotten enough of me, you can listen to the interview I had the honor of doing with Secretary Hillary Clinton for her podcast, you and Me Both, which is now available. Stay healthy, eat well, and take care of each other.
- [60:22]
A
We're going to take a little time off, so it'll be a little bit longer before we come back, but we'll be back in December.
- [60:28]
B
Until then, I'm Samin.
- [60:29]
A
And I'm Rishi.
- [60:30]
B
And we'll be home cooking Radiotopia from prx.