Anxiety in the Body: Creating a Sanctuary at Home with Dr Alexandra Shaker

Summary

Podcast Summary: Homing with Matt Gibberd

Episode: Anxiety in the Body: Creating a Sanctuary at Home with Dr. Alexandra Shaker
Date: February 26, 2026
Host: Matt Gibberd
Guest: Dr. Alexandra Shaker (Clinical Psychologist, Author of The Narrowing)

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Main Theme

This episode explores the profound connection between anxiety, our physical bodies, and the environments we inhabit—most crucially, the home. Host Matt Gibberd and Dr. Alexandra Shaker discuss the physical realities of anxiety, how our built environments can trigger or soothe nerves, and how intentional choices in our domestic spaces offer us refuge and grounding. Throughout, they weave together personal stories, clinical insight, and practical advice for embracing anxiety and cultivating a home that can act as sanctuary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experience and Root Causes of Anxiety

• Dr. Shaker and Matt reflect on their lifelong experiences with anxiety and panic attacks.
• The “narrowing” sensation is described both physically (tightening blood vessels, hyperfocus) and figuratively (emotional constriction, missing the bigger picture).
• The field of psychology’s previous separation of mind and body is challenged—anxiety is a deeply embodied phenomenon.
• Family history, genetics, and “emotional inheritance” play vital roles; epigenetic studies indicate trauma and stress can be passed down generations.

Notable Quotes:

"The field of psychology has not helped us... there's been such an effort to separate our cognitive faculties from our bodies. But science every day is showing us... there is no separation."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [08:32]

"The book felt like an opportunity... to talk about anxiety and think about anxiety the way that I find most meaningful, with nuance, to attach anxiety to our larger history as human beings."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [03:00]

2. Anxiety as a Bodily Experience

• Anxiety manifests through elevated heart rate, sweating, stomach pain, and other physiological phenomena.
• For many, this develops into a fear of anxiety itself (particularly with panic disorder), creating a self-fulfilling loop.
• Concepts such as hypervigilance and interoception are described; some people (including many neurodivergent individuals) are acutely aware of internal body signals, making them more susceptible to anxiety spirals.

Notable Quotes:

"You develop a fear of anxiety itself. It's self-fulfilling, isn't it?"
— Matt Gibberd [07:00]

3. The Home as the First Refuge

• Matt and Dr. Shaker discuss the idea of “the body as a home” and the psychological implications of feeling at home within one’s self.
• The importance of home is both the physical structure and, crucially, the people we share it with.
• Hypervigilance after trauma can transform how people experience sound, space, or their own bodies, and the home’s environment can either soothe or exacerbate these sensitivities.

Notable Quotes:

"Feeling comfortable in your own body... is what we are all after in many ways. But at the same time, home for me always has to do with the people that you're with."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [10:40]

4. Environmental Triggers for Anxiety

• Certain environments—lecture halls, cinemas, spaces with poor lighting or limited escape routes—are common panic triggers.
• The design of these spaces often exacerbates the sense of entrapment or being on display, increasing anxiety.
• People naturally respond by avoiding these places, which only reinforces the anxiety loop.

Timestamps:

• [18:59] Triggers: “You begin to associate your panic with lecture halls and… spaces like perhaps a movie theater…” — Dr. Alexandra Shaker

Notable Quotes:

"It seems like the only solution is to just not be in those spaces and to avoid those enclosed spaces. But... the more you avoid them, the more convinced your brain becomes that you can't manage them."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [18:59]

"Design hasn't considered what is humane for the person that's using the space."
— Matt Gibberd [21:36]

5. The Drive for Control

• Seeking control (where you sit, how you interact with a space) is central to managing anxiety, but it reveals our underlying lack of control over life’s big uncertainties.
• Simple adaptive strategies—like booking an aisle seat—act as comfort mechanisms but don't solve the fundamental dilemma.

Notable Quotes:

"What anxiety really is... a reckoning with the fact that we have so little control in this life. And that can be really painful."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [23:10]

6. Creating a Grounding Space at Home

• After years of moving (including overseas), Dr. Shaker describes the significance of finally finding a permanent home that feels grounding and nurturing.
• Objects, books, textiles, and hand-made or natural materials create personal meaning and psychological comfort.
• Lighting, sound, and materials all influence our daily well-being—the home should be set up for success, especially for those prone to hypervigilance.

Timestamps:

• [53:07] “...Having objects that feel sort of sentimental in some sense, those things really feel like grounding to me.” — Dr. Alexandra Shaker

Notable Quotes:

"My home is where my husband and my son are, but it's also where I can cook... have my books... where you don't have to be anything in particular."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [29:28]

7. Making Friends with Anxiety

• Resisting or trying to banish anxiety makes it stronger. Acceptance, curiosity, and writing a “truce” are more effective.
• “Making friends with anxiety” involves listening to it, understanding your triggers, and being compassionate with yourself.

Timestamps:

• [31:03] "You can meet your anxiety, you can kind of introduce yourself... You can acknowledge its presence, and I think you can kind of learn to live alongside it..." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker

8. Anxiety as a Positive Force

• Anxiety can be motivating—it's a protective mechanism and can fuel positive action.
• The challenge is keeping it at a helpful, rather than overwhelming, level.

Notable Quotes:

"If you were never anxious, you would not be aware of threats to your survival... we need some anxiety in order to get out of bed in the morning and do anything."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [33:27]

9. Coping Mechanisms & Practical Strategies

Top Recommendations:

• Routine & Ritual: Consistent daily structures (especially around sleep and mornings) help maintain stability.
• Exercise: Both strength training and running are cited as powerful for anxiety relief. Physical discomfort from exercise helps normalize the sensations of anxiety.
  • [38:32] "Physical exercise is really important for anxiety... There is simply no way around it."
• Mindfulness & Meditation: Brief, regular, and accessible mindfulness practices (meditation apps, walking meditations) create a calmer mental state.
  • [40:24] On getting started: "Download a meditation app... make a very small commitment... and see how it goes."
• Sleep Hygiene: Going to bed early, winding down with reading, and maintaining sleep routines are critical.
• Nourishing the Senses: Lighting, textiles, objects with personal meaning, and natural materials enhance feelings of refuge.
• Yoga, Singing, Chanting: Gentle bodily practices (yoga/chanting) release oxytocin and calm the nervous system.
• Flow States: Activities that absorb attention (writing, cooking, even washing up) are incompatible with anxiety and therefore protective.
  • [49:41] “Basically, you can't be anxious while you're experiencing flow. The two don't coexist.”

Memorable Moment:

"If your objective is to get [anxiety] as far away from you as possible, it will kind of come closer."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [31:03]

10. Home Design for Mental Wellbeing

• Emphasize comfort, warmth, and individualized design. For some, sunlight is soothing; for others, a “womb-like” or cocooning space is calming.
• Surrounding oneself with books, hand-made or meaningful objects, and soft, sound-absorbing textiles enhances sanctuary.
• Colors and materials should generally evoke the natural world.

Timestamps:

• [51:59] “I do think your point about lighting is really meaningful... For some people that means they want tons of sunlight. For me, that is totally overwhelming... I like to feel more like womb-like."
  — Dr. Alexandra Shaker

"When you can sense the hand of the maker in something... that's a very calming thing."
— Matt Gibberd [54:23]

11. Community, Belonging, and Social Connection

• Having roots in a place and feeling connected is essential for reducing anxiety and enhancing wellbeing.
• Community takes effort and commitment, but provides crucial protection from loneliness and isolation.
• Dr. Shaker reflects on the challenges and rewards of building community after frequent moves tied to her husband's film career.

Notable Quotes:

"Everything we can do to become part of communities that we can contribute to and count on... is a long-term piece of our well being."
— Dr. Alexandra Shaker [59:24]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Speaker | Timestamp | |-------|---------|-----------| | What is “the narrowing”? | Dr. Shaker | 04:25 | | Anxiety as a bodily loop | Dr. Shaker | 07:00 | | Hypervigilance and trauma | Dr. Shaker | 12:41 | | Control & avoidance behaviors | Both | 18:59, 22:11 | | Coping mechanisms: exercise | Dr. Shaker | 36:53, 38:32 | | Coping mechanisms: mindfulness | Dr. Shaker | 39:19, 40:24 | | Creating a comforting home | Dr. Shaker | 51:59, 53:07 | | Embodied “touchstones” at home | Both | 54:23–55:16 | | Community & belonging | Dr. Shaker | 58:27, 59:24 | | Anxiety as evolutionary advantage | Dr. Shaker | 33:27 |

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Noteworthy Quotes

• "The more you avoid them, the more convinced your brain becomes that you can't manage them. So the anxiety increases." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker [18:59]
• "Making friends with anxiety... actually makes it far less aggressive." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker [31:03]
• "Flow to me is really, really interesting because basically, like, you can't be anxious while you're experiencing flow. The two don't coexist." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker [50:34]
• "Having things in your home that feel special and personally meaningful makes me feel at ease." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker [53:07]
• "Everything we can do to become part of communities that we can contribute to and count on... is a long-term piece of our wellbeing." — Dr. Alexandra Shaker [59:24]

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Practical Takeaways

• Accept and befriend anxiety, rather than resist it.
• Cultivate daily routines: Especially around sleep, exercise, and mindful breaks.
• Design your home with intention: Emphasize comfort, personal meaning, natural materials, and soothing lighting.
• Create spaces that allow both retreat and openness (prospect/refuge).
• Nurture community: Invest effort in maintaining and building social connections.
• Experiment with body practices: Yoga, singing, or even shared ritual can alter brain chemistry and foster calm.

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Closing Reflection

“Home” can be an external space or an inner state—but for those who live with anxiety, the line between the two is permeable. The work, then, is to curate both body and environment as sanctuaries: welcoming, grounding, flexible enough to hold us—and our anxieties—with kindness.

Recommended Reading:

• The Narrowing by Dr. Alexandra Shaker
• The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
• Emotional Inheritance by Galit Atlas

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Transcript

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So let's imagine you're in a lecture hall the first time you have a panic attack. And then you begin to associate your panic with lecture halls and spaces like lecture halls, like perhaps a movie theater where there's rows of seats and you might be stuck in the middle and you don't know that you can get out. And getting out might feel kind of embarrassing. And so it becomes a loop where you, as you say, you start to avoid those places. And then the more you avoid them, the more convinced your brain becomes that you can't manage them. So the anxiety increases. I guess I would like to imagine that we can sort of see like a mapping on of the home that we try to cultivate in our minds with our physical homes. Sort of like the sense of striving for, like an inner peace or a sense of peace in our physical environments that you can always go back to.

[Matt Gibbard]

Hello and welcome to Homing. I'm Matt Gibbard. This is an episode about anxiety. If I could pinpoint a particular feeling that's defined most of my life, I'd probably use the word anxious. I had my first panic attack at a young age, and from then on, I never really felt safe in my own body. It's something that many of us live with. Anxiety can cause us to lose hope, but it can also be a powerful force for action. Here to discuss this with me today is Dr. Alexandra Shaker, who. Who has a PhD in clinical psychology and is a specialist in anxiety disorders. Her brilliant book, the Narrowing, combines her personal experiences of panic attacks with the things she's learned as a practitioner and researcher. In this conversation, we look at some of the root causes of anxiety and suggest some coping mechanisms for how to live with it. We lean into the link between anxiety and the built environment, so how different spaces can trigger panic and how things like lighting and materials can make a big difference. And we discuss how the home can be such an important refuge, one that centers us and keeps us grounded in difficult times. Here it is, and I hope you find it useful.

[Podcast Host]

Alexandra, hello. Hello. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on Homing.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Oh, thank you for having me.

[Podcast Host]

I think people may be listening, thinking, well, what's anxiety got to do with the home? Right. This is a podcast about the home, but I actually think they're really, really interlinked personally. For me personally, my own anxiety is very much triggered by the built environment. So I'd love to get into that with you a little bit later.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But also I find that my home is a space in which to Manage that anxiety. It's like a safe space. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it definitely is for me. And I've read your book, your amazing book, and I thought it was really, really insightful and brilliant. So I. I know this because I've written books myself. All research is me. Search. Right. That's right, is the line.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So what are your own experiences of anxiety? Why did you want to write about it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, and that is so true, and definitely true in psychology. So I have experienced anxiety much of my own life, and, you know, certainly starting at least as early as being a teenager. For me, that's sort of like the most specific period of my life I can think of when I can identify anxiety emerging really in such sort of, like an overwhelming form that it was unmissable. So it had been. It has been. It is a part of my life, and one that means a lot to me in clinical context, but also as something that's in my family history and sort of always been in the water for me. And so the book felt like an opportunity to talk about anxiety and think about anxiety the way that I find most meaningful, which is to say, rather than thinking about sort of like quick fixes or hacks for anxiety, which I find quite frustrating and misleading generally, to think about anxiety with depth, to bring nuance to the conversation about anxiety, to attach anxiety to our larger history as human beings, not just from a science point of view, but bringing in literature and sort of thinking about what anxiety can teach us about what it is to be alive more broadly. And that was really the driving force for me with the book.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so anxiety in the body. Right, because you do feel anxiety physically. You've called the book the Narrowing. What does that mean? Narrowing?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes. So the title of the book, the Narrowing, evokes for me what it feels like to be really anxious. We can think about narrowing on a physiological level in terms of sort of the ways that our bodies respond to experiences of fear or experiences of deep concern or panic, where, for example, our blood vessels are narrowing, our attention is narrowing to focus on what feels like a threat, whether or not it's sort of an actual threat. But I also think there's this narrowing of our sort of emotional resources, our sort of faculties of sort of missing the forest for the trees when we're anxious. And this had all sort of floated in my mind over the years, and I think it's true for many clinicians that these are kind of concepts that we think about with anxiety and talk with People about at the same time. However, I think what really brought it into focus for me was this beautiful definition of anxiety in this book, the Dictionary of Untranslatables, which I really love. And it's kind of like a philosophical dictionary and they use the word narrowing in their definition for anxiety. And it really sort of spoke to me and stayed with me. And so when it came to titling the book, I felt that it was the perfect word for it.

[Podcast Host]

So when we get anxious and we feel that narrowing feeling, what's going on chemically in the body?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Sure. So I mean if you think about a fight or flight response, there are going to be chemicals in the body like adrenaline and noradrenaline and they make us feel very alert, they make us sort of drop everything else and kind of hyper focus on whatever we're concerned about. This can be useful if you're in an actually dangerous situation, but obviously quite frustrating when you're not, as many people will be sort of well aware. And these are attached to feelings like sweating, your heart racing, your stomach might be churning, all these sorts of physical responses. And then you have cortisol kicking in which kind of sustains that intense feeling of alertness over time. So it's a very physical process and sort of noticing those different things that kick in for certain people. Some will be more powerful than others. Like I always can feel my heart racing when I'm anxious. Some people might say oh their palm sweat. For me that doesn't happen, I don't know why. Right. But we all have these bodily responses to our emotional experiences and they are sort of inseparable ultimately.

[Podcast Host]

And then what I've sort of found is that you kind of develop a fear of anxiety itself somehow.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That's true, don't you?

[Podcast Host]

It's self fulfilling, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's very self fulfilling. And many, many people, especially with panic disorder, for instance, what will happen is you kind of, when you don't quite have a handle on it, you'll enter into a cycle where the panic is sort of about the panic. So there's like as you say, fear of fear itself is very, very common and very normal. And so you might find someone has a panic attack for the first time and then they come to treatment and the idea of having another panic attack is so upsetting and anxiety inducing and in fact creates this hyper awareness of physical sensations in the body and can kind of create this loop of panic. And so it's quite right, quite right what you say.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm aware as well, that autistic people, neurodivergent people, are especially aware of what's going on internally. Is interoception is the word, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, that's right here.

[Podcast Host]

So I feel like sometimes if you're very aware of what's happening internally, you can kind of develop a fear of that in the sense that you hear stories a lot about people turning up to A and E feeling like they're having a heart attack, but actually it's just panic, Right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes. Yes.

[Podcast Host]

When I remember when I was a student, I had stomach pain so bad, I thought my appendix must have been shot or something, and I went to hospital. There was nothing wrong with me. It was just anxiety.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I find it incredible that it can have such a physical outcome.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's true. And I think in many ways, the field of psychology has not helped us with this historically, because I think there's been such an effort to separate our kind of cognitive faculties from our bodies. But science every day is showing us more and more the very, very kind of stark reality that there is no separation. I mean, we cannot sort of work with this concept even on a. You know, if you want to treat anxiety, you cannot ignore people's bodies. It's. It's absolutely untenable. And so your experience with your gut. Stomach pains. Not an unusual experience at all to have stomach pains that are related to anxiety. It's great that you went to A and E, because it's good to find out that your appendix is intact. But at the same time, you know, if you'd gone to A and E every weekend.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

You know, that would be something different. Right. And so understanding that our brains and our guts are not just sort of casually linked, but powerfully connected on a chemical level is, I think, something that we're all coming to as a field, and that's becoming part of sort of the common awareness. But it's still on the way. We're not quite there yet. But that is fact. That is fact.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. There is an amazing book, isn't there? The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Indeed.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, that's really popularized this idea, I think, as well. And if anyone hasn't read that, I really highly recommend it.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, it's very powerful.

[Podcast Host]

It's very powerful. But I did a podcast recently with a friend of mine called Max Rollitt, who's an interior decorator and antiques dealer, and I always ask every guest, what's your definition of the word home? Right. And he said, I see the word home as my body, and no one said that to me before, but I love that. I thought it was really powerful. Do you see it in that way? And is the body treating the body as a home? Is that what we should all be doing? Is this the kind of most important thing we should be concentrating on? Rather than decorating our physical home? Should we be concentrating internally a bit more?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I'm so conflicted because I do care about our environments, our homes as physical spaces a lot. But I think your friend sounds very highly evolved in some ways, right? Yeah, most of us are right in some ways. I think that it is incredibly powerful to feel at home within yourself. I think feeling comfortable in your own body, which is to say sort of having some kind of peace of mind, at least much of the time, if not all the time. I think no one has that. All the time is what we are all after in many ways. Certainly what I'm after every day. And I think some days maybe we get a bit closer to that than others. So I love that idea. I think for me, that feels like an aspiration. But at the same time, home for me always has to do with the people that you're with in your home. I mean, I think I was thinking about this on the way here. I've moved seven times in seven years, and most of those moves have been international. And so home has felt sort of physically very disjointed until recently. And yet I've been with my son and my husband, and that has made me feel a certain sort of like, essence of home anyway, in all sorts of temporary living setups. And so I believe that in my bones, you know. So for me, I think it is, yes, this is something we can aspire to within ourselves, but it has so much to do with the people who you're in the space with.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I totally get that. And actually, that's what another guest of mine, Polly Morgan, said as well. She said, you know, if I've got those three with me, I can be at home anywhere. And I think that's amazing, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That's the truth. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Polly actually also talked about hypervigilance, which came on after her sister passed away. She had a very difficult period in her life, and she described sound being a particular problem for her.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Is that quite common? Do you find that? Can you talk? Firstly, I suppose. What is hyper vigilance?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Sure, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And secondly, kind of. How do you help it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah. So hyper vigilance is a state of hyper awareness, you could say to threat in the environment. And that could, in some instances feel like a hyper vigilance to one's own physical internal sensations, that interoception that you're talking about. So hyper vigilance to one's heart rate, to a source of physical pain in the body, for instance. But hypervigilance can also be to sound. For instance, if you're crossing the road and there's a traffic sound that frightens you or the sound of a horn beeping, things like that. Right. But I think what happens is that sustained hypervigilance is really hard on the body and really hard on the brain. Absolutely. So when we have periods of extended anxiety or panic disorder, things like that, people will often feel hypervigilance, and it's very exhausting. It sucks up attention, and it's also pretty miserable. You could think of, in a more classic sense, you could think of someone who's had, for instance, trauma in a war zone, who might develop hypervigilance as a safety mechanism to certain sounds in the environment. That would be sort of a very kind of strong example of what hypervigilance can feel like. But there can also be instances where maybe, I don't know the details of the story, but maybe there's a. A very painful period in life and the hypervigilance comes to be around other sensations or sounds or kind of any intrusion into your physical space, things like that.

[Podcast Host]

So it almost feels like you're full up and it's tipping you over.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes. And it's one thing to be hypervigilant for a day, you know, it's another thing to be hypervigilant for weeks, months on end. That is a very hard state to live in because so much of your mind is consumed with. With impending threat.

[Podcast Host]

So to some extent it must be genetic, right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That's right, yes.

[Podcast Host]

But there's also epigenetics as well.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

What does that mean? Epigenetics?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Sure. So, yes, anxiety is quite genetic. Epigenetics are essentially the way that external forces impact the expression of our genes. So for example, you might have a genetic predisposition to anxiety, we'll say. I mean, that's a very broad way to describe it because so many genes are at play, but let's just call it that. Right. And then in your life you might have sort of like a major stressor. You might. Let's imagine you lose a parent, you go through a natural disaster, things like that. Major stressors in life. And those major stressors can impact how your existing DNA expresses itself. In your life, and that's epigenetics. So this is everything from pollution in the environment to emotional experiences in your life, traumas, for instance, all these kinds of factors. It's sort of like everything acting on the expression of our genes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. I read an amazing study on this, which is that they showed that I think they did on mice and they exposed mice to a certain smell and they gave them a shock when they smelled that smell. So of course they developed a fear of that smell. But what was incredible was the offspring of those mice also recoiled when they were exposed to the smell. And the offspring of those offspring also had the same reaction.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That's amazing.

[Podcast Host]

Isn't that incredible? So that's kind of epigenetics in action, I think. But also, I think we underestimate perhaps what happens during pregnancy and that period in a mother's life that can actually be quite traumatic for whatever reason that does then, I feel, contribute to how that human being feels when they come into the world.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Right, yes. And there's excellent data on this exact subject. And having worked in perinatal psychology and psychiatry, oftentimes women are concerned, you know, for instance, about, you know, they're more concerned about their baby than their own well being. But the reality is the mother's well being is enormously important for the health of the baby, even in utero. And so there's research on, you know, physiological changes that can be seen in the babies of mothers who were undergoing massive stress for one reason or another. And so there's. To me, that is just, I mean, I hope that that information spreads and spreads. But, you know, mother's health, both while pregnant and afterward is very, very important to the health of their babies. I mean, and I think sort of in addition to the mouse study, which is very interesting, there's a really beautiful book called Emotional Inheritance, which is by a psychologist named Galit Atlas. And it came out a couple of years ago, maybe four years ago. And there's all sorts of amazing case studies that have to do with the ways that we inherit different elements of our emotional life. And it's, it's really worthwhile. So highly recommend it.

[Podcast Host]

I haven't seen that one.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But anxiety in the environment. Let's talk about this, because for me personally, my anxiety when I was younger was really environmental and I kind of. It took me quite a while to figure it out. But when I was getting panic attacks in my youth, it was often in places like lecture theaters, exam halls. They tended to be Spaces where, like, I felt like I couldn't escape if I needed to. They tended to be spaces with no windows, sometimes quite hot. The lighting isn't what I use the word, humane for lighting. It's not very humane lighting. Right. Lots of artificial lighting beating down on you. So I essentially started avoiding these spaces. So theaters, you know, I stopped taking lifts and I'd, you know, climb up endless flights of stairs and wouldn't go to cinemas and all that kind of thing. And you become avoidant. Right, because you want to avoid that feeling.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Of course, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Do you have an explanation as to what's going on there and why those particular environments are triggering anxiety?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So let's imagine you're in a lecture hall the first time you have a panic attack. And then you begin to associate your panic with lecture halls and spaces like lecture halls, like perhaps a movie theater where there's rows of seats and you might be stuck in the middle and you don't know that you can get out and getting out might feel kind of embarrassing and there's noise and there's sort of like a focus point that you're supposed to be on. Right. And these kinds of sensations. And so it becomes a loop where you, as you say, you start to avoid those places. And then the more you avoid them, the more convinced your brain becomes that you can't manage them. So the anxiety increases and it seems like the only solution is to just not be in those spaces and to avoid those enclosed spaces. And a lot of people struggle with feeling like they couldn't escape a physical space. And that kind of, you know, that's a very normal sensation. I think rows of seats in lecture halls and movie theaters are probably one of the most common sort of commonly cited physical. I mean, I don't have any data to back this up, this is my opinion, but yeah, but I think feeling trapped in some way can be enormously uncomfortable and anxiety producing. And I really like your term humane lighting.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

There is something about, I guess a movie theater, less so since it's so dark. But a lecture hall, especially those kinds of fluorescent lights and those things where you feel really on the spot. There is something about it that I think makes us feel quite on high alert. They almost feel like medical spaces and they don't create kind of a warmth or a coziness or any of these sort of more humane spaces. And so there is something really interesting about that. I don't know that I can explain it so much, but I can relate to it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I think one of the things about lecture theatres for me is that often the entrance and the exit will be down next to the lecturer at the front. Right. And then there's a huge bank of seating going all the way up to the back. So you're Right. It's the feeling of being trapped in the sense that, let's say you're sitting in a row halfway up. Well, if you get that anxiety feeling, there's no way you can stand up. Make everyone on your row stand up. So you get out the way, walk down the stairs in front of the lecturer, say, thanks very much, see you later, and go out the door. That's kind of not an option.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's humiliating.

[Podcast Host]

It's humiliating and it disturbs what's going on. Right. So I think that exacerbates it. So that's a good example for me where design hasn't considered, actually, or use that word again, what is humane for the person that's using the space.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, and that's what. That's what I find frustrating.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

You know.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah. I mean, I think when we think about, like, having guests at home and how we want them to feel, we want them to feel comfortable and at ease and sort of the last thing we want people to feel is on edge. And I think, obviously, a lot of public spaces have different goals, different objectives. And I think the lecture hall is a perfect example where there is this sense of being a bit trapped and not wanting to embarrass oneself, not wanting to interrupt, all of these kinds of things. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

A lot of it's about control, isn't it? I think that's the word that comes to mind for me. I mean, nowadays, if I go to. Let's say I go to the cinema, I actually will book the seat on the end of the row, Right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That's quite a good example where you kind of. You learn as you go along and you try to manage it and then you feel in control. Cause you know, if you go into the cinema, you know where you're gonna be sitting.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Some places throw you off. Cause they don't give you a seating plan. And then you find yourself right in the middle and you know that's frustrating.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

You're stuck.

[Podcast Host]

You're stuck. But another person I interviewed on this podcast is Chris Packham, who is autistic. And he talked about how, when he's filming Spring Watch on the BBC, the whole crew and everyone knows that Chris needs to sit in a certain space. I think it's like a certain position. In the car, he was saying, and he has to have things a certain way. And it is about control. And so how does control feed into anxiety for you? And what can we sort of learn from that?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I have to say, I love Spring Watch.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's great.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I just have to note that that's fantastic. I think control is central to anxiety. I think that a lot of what anxiety kind of ultimately at its essence, is sort of like a recognition of how little control we have as human beings in this world. And so maybe we can control certain small things, like where we sit in a cinema, but we have. Or a car or whatever it is, but that ultimately there is so much vast lack of control. We can experience devastating loss. Our mortality is incredibly overwhelming for many people, if you think about it, which people I think try to avoid. But I think what anxiety really is is sort of like reckoning with the fact that we have so little control in this life. And that can be really painful. And I think that, you know, when you. When you think about these sort of tactics we set up for ourselves, these sort of, like, creature comforts, like where you're going to sit, that's all really, like, it creates a sense of comfort in our days. And those things are, I think, worth doing, you know, if you can. If within reason, if you can, why not sit in the seat you prefer? You know? But I think in some ways, when I think about adolescents, adolescents don't have that much control over their lives. Children don't have that much control over their lives. They're kind of at the whim of the adults who run everything. And as adults, you know, if we're lucky, we get to have more say in how our lives look. And so I think we have to be honest that we wanna be in control. We have almost none. And that's life. That's life.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You sound more evolved than me.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, I say these things, you know. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Let's talk about the home.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

So you've recently moved into a new home, right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Correct? Yes.

[Podcast Host]

In London.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

So tell us about that. How does that feel? And, you know, you talked about moving around a huge amount.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So how important is it to you now to have this more permanent home?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's so important to me. I mean, yeah, we've moved many times, and I have been really craving a permanent home. A home that feels like ours, that we can sort of not feel like we're about to move out of at all times. And so finding the right home, that felt really kind of, for me, like I love to feel cozy and comfortable. I love to have a space that feels warm and inviting. That means a great deal to me, and I wanted to provide that also for our son. You know, all these things mean a lot to me. So a lot of time went into finding it, and once we did, I think it's felt like a huge sort of, like, weight off to be in this one place that we can really see ourselves in for a while. And I think it feels. It feels very grounding. It feels. It feels like there's just an ease in it that we hadn't had for a while.

[Podcast Host]

How long have you been there now?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Less than a year. I think it's been, like, about half a year.

[Podcast Host]

So before we started recording, you said it was quite a process to find it. Right. How many places did you view?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I think I viewed at least 65 places. I don't know what's considered normative. That felt like a lot to me.

[Podcast Host]

It is a lot.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That felt like a lot. We saw a lot of different places. They were all. There was a wide variety in terms of the aesthetic and neighborhoods and all of this. And so it was a pretty. I got pretty tired of looking. Yeah, I got pretty tired of looking.

[Podcast Host]

Out of interest, how did this one, like, make the grade where the other 65 didn't?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Right. Well, there were a few in the other 65 that we thought might make the grade. And then, like, for one reason or another, they fell through. I guess that's everyone's situation. But this one was special. I mean, there was no question, like, there was, like, absolutely no doubt that if. If this could be our home, we wanted it to be our home. You know, there was no hesitation. I was sort of joking with you before, but, you know, I tend to be sort of, like, practical to a fault, and my husband is really great about sort of, like, holding out for the right thing to come along. And so I think in this case, it was worth all the waiting to find the right home, if you will.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for him.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, no, he's very good at that. So someone gave us the advice, you know, during this frustrating process, like, you know, the right place will come, and when you find it, you will have no regrets about the ones that kind of got away. And I was like, give me a break. That's, like, absurd. This is so frustrating. And I think it turned out in this instance anyway to be true.

[Podcast Host]

And can you describe the feeling of those first days and weeks in the house? What was that like?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, it was really Exciting because it felt like a lot of energy going into this. And finally here we are. At the same time, I think it's like moving is, I think well known to be one of the biggest stressors that we go through regularly. It always feels like somehow like, where did all this stuff come from? What am I gonna, you know, like, what are all these objects that I have to deal with and physically move? But it felt pretty magical to be totally. I don't mean to be corny about this, but it was like, I remember just kind of like waking up in the morning and it was totally in boxes, you know, we were not settled, but it just felt amazing to finally be at home.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

You know, and.

[Podcast Host]

Cause you're both American, right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So your husband, Robert Eggers is a film director, Very well known film director. Just tell us a little bit about him and his work for people that aren't familiar.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Sure, yeah. He's a film director who I think his work sort of takes on the darkest parts of our psychology in many ways. A lot of his work is sort of in the horror genre, but very artful. You know, he's extraordinarily psychologically minded. So I think in that sense there's sort of like this connection there for us around taking on sort of the themes that we as human beings have to face. And in his movies it generally is sort of like within the sphere of horror. So that's sort of, I think, the quickest encapsulation of his work. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So for you personally describing yourself as a bit more of an anxious person, how does your home help with that for you?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, I mean, it helps so much. And to be fair, I think this was true even in more transient homes that we lived in. But for me, like I said, my home is where my husband and my son are, but it's also a place that we have our friends. It's a place where I can cook, which I love to do. It's a place that feels sort of like nurturing. I love to have sort of like the smells of good food and you know, my books and my husband and I both have a lot of books, so we're surrounded by those. That makes me feel quite at home. You know, I like sort of just the comfort of being in a space where you don't have to sort of be anything in particular. You can just sort of let it all go and just be at total ease, you know. That is, I think, what we all want in many ways, right when we get home. And so that to me is what I try to have for myself and my family at our home. And I want our friends to feel a sense of comfort and kind of like, welcome when they're over. And when my family is visiting and this idea that we can share a space and kind of like this time of year, the big excitement is like the Christmas coziness for us is really, really lovely and means a lot, especially with a child. So those kinds of things feel really welcoming and enveloping and warm.

[Podcast Host]

So in terms of practical advice for people listening, I've written down here, making friends with anxiety.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Why do you think I've written that down? I mean, what does that mean to you? Would you say?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I like that? I like that, Yeah. I think the thing is that with anxiety, if your objective is to get it as far away from you as possible, it will kind of come closer. And so I think that making friends is a nice way to look at it. Sort of like you can meet your anxiety, you can kind of introduce yourself, you can acknowledge its presence, and I think you can kind of learn to live alongside it. And that actually makes it sort of like, far less aggressive. You know, when we think about, even clinically speaking, like in obsessive compulsive disorder, when people have intrusive thoughts that are upsetting, it's much more effective to acknowledge the thought and sort of let it pass instead of trying to aggressively push it away. And so I think that that's true of all anxiety. You can sort of say to yourself, like, I am anxious right now. I'm feeling these physical sensations and so forth, and I can tolerate them even though they're uncomfortable. And then you will find that they do pass. The moment passes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So how do you kind of embrace it rather than resist it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, I think there's an element of sort of coming to understand what gets it going. So for some people, that means understanding, like, the physical sensations, the environments, like you said, that tend to set it off, and trying to sort of create an understanding in your own mind of what form your anxiety tends to take. I think that's sort of like one piece of it. And then I think, also trying to take a deeper look for yourself at what might be driving it. Are you going through a period of significant change in your life? Are you feeling some sort of large sense of uncertainty? You know, what. What is happening, Being kind of curious with yourself about your own mind? And I don't want to say that that's going to make your anxiety disappear. I think that's false. But you can also sort of, you can get pretty far with sort of an attitude of curiosity rather than sort of like horror or total rejection.

[Podcast Host]

I think that's interesting though, isn't it? Because I think when you first experience it, especially when you're young, there is that sense of horror.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Oh yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's a realization that, God, it's almost like sometimes your body's being controlled by external forces and you're like, well, I don't have this control that I need here.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, anxiety in some ways must be a positive force, right? In what ways does it actually help us?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, certainly, you know, anxiety from like an evolutionary perspective is a life saving force. If you were never anxious, you would not be aware of threats to your survival. And so we can imagine in environments where daily survival is more at risk than we're lucky to have here today, you can imagine why being anxious is protective. You can sort of notice threats, try to move away from threats before they get too close. All these kinds of things. Right. In a more sort of like, in another context, you can imagine if you're anxious at work, you might sort of like not let anything slide. You might make sure that everything is just right and you might get a lot of praise for that. On the other hand, if, if it goes too far, you might take forever to finish anything. You might kind of need too much reassurance, need too much sort of reinforcement from higher up. So there's different ways that it can kind of exceed its utility. But there's no question that we need some anxiety in order to sort of like get out of bed in the morning and do anything we don't want it to take over.

[Podcast Host]

I think that's exactly right. I think what I've learned about it is it is a driving force of sorts.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Oh yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And actually sort of unlike depression, depression, I feel like, is something that sort of. It pulls you down, doesn't it? And it's awful in its own way. Depression and anxiety is extremely difficult to live with, but it is a force and it does generate action, I find, you know, that's the upside of it, I think.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah. I mean, I think that again, I'm not saying I have data for this, but I would imagine that if you looked at sort of like a lot of people who run businesses, for instance, things like that, there is a degree of anxiety, anxiety that fuels some of that kind of force. So as you say, we need some of that. Depression is often sort of more of a state of feeling inertia, feeling just an overwhelming Sense of an inability to go forward in a way that's really different, as you pointed out. So I think that with anxiety, it's sort of like easier to see the function and the benefit again if it's contained.

[Podcast Host]

How would you say that? You know, when you've gone from being anxious to having a disorder of some kind?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, I think the two, like, primary things I would think about is interference in your life. Are you unable to go to work or function at work or go to school or function at school? You know, these kinds of sort of like blatant things that are part of everyday life for most people. Are you struggling to do them because of your anxiety? So how is it interfering? How much time is it consuming? Are you struggling to fall asleep for hours at night because you're anxious, for example, or are you feeling changes in your appetite, your sort of like physiological well, being that you're struggling to eat or eating more than you normally do because of your anxiety? These kinds of questions. So you can kind of, you can imagine. I mean, almost everybody feels anxious sometimes. It's rare and concerning if you feel no anxiety. But you want to think about interference and sort of the time it's consuming in your life.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. Let's talk about coping mechanisms.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What would you recommend as some of the best coping mechanisms for anxiety?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, of course, if you are struggling, you know, psychotherapy can be extraordinarily powerful for many people. There's utility for medication as well. So these are sort of like the two most obvious things. But I think outside of a clinical setting, I can speak from sort of like research and also my own experience. There is no question that physical exercise is really important for anxiety. And I did not want this to be true because I'm not a natural athlete. But there is simply no way around it. Physical exercise has cognitive benefits of many kinds. It is very useful when it comes to anxiety. It creates lots of kind of good changes in your body chemistry in the short term and in the long term. I think the other thing about exercise I think is really powerful is that exercise pretty much inherently like whatever you're doing, you are expecting to feel kind of physically uncomfortable. And that's not considered a bad thing when you're. I mean, you know, I obviously don't want to hurt yourself, but within reason, that's part of it. And a lot of anxiety is connected to this sense of like having a hard time tolerating physical discomfort hurts, feeling really freaked out by changes in the body that are normative. And so I think that there is something really useful in learning to tolerate the sensations of exercise as this ordinary part of life that's actually. That can be good for us. Within, like, two days of not exercising, I can feel a difference.

[Podcast Host]

What is it that you do then?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So I do strength training.

[Podcast Host]

I do that as well. That's amazing as well.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's great. But there is something. And I run, but, like, I'm such a slow runner. It's like. It's like a huge humiliating. But I do it anyway just because I sort of tell myself, like, who cares how fast I am? I'm gonna get my heart rate up, you know? And I find running requires a little bit more sort of like, it's harder for me to get out there and do it. Strength training is, like, a little bit more fun to me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

But I try to do 50, 50, because I think that I feel the best physically and emotionally when I've got that release, that running. It's hard to replicate that in other sports. I think running is kind of unusual in the kind of, like, quick burst that you get from even, like, 40 minutes.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so that's exercise.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What other coping mechanisms have we got?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Well, I mean, mindfulness practices such as meditation are extremely healthy. They are healthy for our brains in many ways. Anxiety is one of them. I think what I would say is that it doesn't have to be a dramatic, sort of massively consuming practice. It can be something. Something that you do for five minutes a day. Some people get interested in sort of like walking, meditations, and other ways to meditate that don't require sitting in a silent space, et cetera. So there are lots of ways to go about it, but it's like, we want these solutions to be novel or quick. But I think that there's lots and lots and lots of evidence to suggest that mindfulness practices actually do help. So if I'm able to sort of imagine a prescription of activities, I would say exercise, and I would absolutely say mindfulness.

[Podcast Host]

And that word mindfulness is quite a broad term, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, that's right. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

How do you get started on mindfulness? I want to get going with this. What is it? What do I do?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So, I mean, I would say something as simple as downloading a meditation app that will give you a bit of a guide to get through it and maybe making, like, a very small commitment. Like, I'm gonna do this for three minutes for a week and sort of see how it goes. And it can help to have kind of like an accountability partner. I used to do this with some friends of mine who are therapists, and we all downloaded the same app and we would text each other when we had done it.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that's good.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Because it was like a daily program. So we would just text that said something like done, and that was it. And then the other thing I would add is sleep. Sleep hygiene is enormously important for our brain health in so many ways. I think that anxiety is one of a long list of things that spans the entirety of our, you know, entirety of our bodily systems. Getting consistent and good quality sleep is really, really important. None of us feels well when we're under rested.

[Podcast Host]

So what do you do to make sure you get good slee?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Well, I go to bed really early for one thing.

[Podcast Host]

What time?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, I am not usually awake by 10. That would be like. There would have to be a really good reason for me to be awake at that point. And I'm up at 6 or 6:30 because of daily routine. So trying to get eight hours, basically, I think is really important. And for me, what that means is I have certain routines that I like. I like to read before bed. That helps me to sort of wind down. I like to do the crossword puzzle, which I do on my phone, which is not advised. I find that it's, for me, not a problem. It doesn't keep me up. This is not advice I would give other people, but I think you need to have some habits, some sleep habits. And I think reading is a really good one. Reading is a great kind of way to wind down. People do all sorts of sleep meditations, things like that. You can sort of think about having like a cup of peppermint tea. You know, these kinds of, like little rituals in life that can kind of tell your tell yourself, like, it's time to. It's time to wind down, it's time to go to bed. But I do think whatever we can do to create habits of solid sleep, this will benefit our health enormously, you know, over the years, anxiety included.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that. I would say that's been my experience as well. And I traditionally have not always been a great sleeper, but I have to routineize it right.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Do you have any good tips?

[Podcast Host]

I would definitely say the. I totally agree about reading. So I use a Kindle, which gives off some blue light, but not a huge amount there. You get the kind of paper ones, and it's pretty good, actually. It means I'm not keeping my wife awake while I'm reading it.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

This is the thing.

[Podcast Host]

Because when you got the lights on, that's kind of problematic. So it's dark.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I just feel like the act of just reading and I read, frankly at night time, I read quite easy to digest stuff.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's almost like just consumption because then I find the brain winds down really quickly. So that's my. That's definitely one of my things. Another one I have is never, ever, ever look at the time. Yeah, it's not helpful. Yeah, you don't need to know the time. So. So I, I think, you know, if I wake up in the middle of the night, night and I can't sleep, I will just pick up the Kindle again and I'll start reading. And at some point I feel sleepy again. And I didn't need to know that it was three in the morning because if I knew at three in the morning I'd start counting down.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

As we all do.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, yes.

[Podcast Host]

But I think it's that word routine I think is an important one. I mean, in the wider context of routines, what else do you do through your day that helps you?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I think for me I like to have routines around sort of like for me, morning is a very productive stretch. I'm not a night owl at all, as you hear. So I know that work wise I'm gonna be most productive in the first portion of the day. I know that I have a child in school, so my routine is in many ways attached to his routine. So for me, I think when I feel best, I know that I've had a stretch of the day when I'm able to feel productive in terms of work. I've been able to exercise, I've been able to sort of eat food that feels, you know, reasonably good to me. And I've been able to get decent sleep. This is so tiny and silly, but my son is really into making popcorn on the stove like just like in a pot. And that has been like a. I wouldn't call it a routine in the sense that we're not doing this every day, but we're doing it quite a lot. And this has become like a really fun evening routine of sort of like this is cozy, it's winter. Like this feels a bit special and this feels a bit. Bit fun and sort of silly. And he finds the sound of it like really entertaining and you know, and that's become like a nice little add on sort of semi routine, I think lately.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's what Catherine May would call wintering.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Right, exactly.

[Podcast Host]

It's like it's making the gingerbread men in the oven, isn't it? It's that kind of thing.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Exactly. Those things mean a lot to me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I can see that. Anything else on the practical side that you can think of? We've talked about meditation. What about things like yoga? What about the kind of more bodily stuff?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I think it's wonderful. When I was in. When I first started college, and I was feeling very, very anxious, and I think I mentioned this a little bit in the book, but I'll go into more detail here. But essentially, I was advised to try yoga, and I was in New York, and I sort of. I'd moved from a small town, so there were, like, a lot more options and things available. And so kind of like entered into this universe of this yoga studio that I was really taken with and probably was, like, a little culty in retrospect. But it was fine. I didn't get that far in, but I loved it. I think the physical space felt so almost magical. I mean, the smell was amazing. It felt like there was always incense burning, the sounds of different instruments that teachers would use in class, the chanting in Sanskrit, all these things were enormously soothing to me. And they were. Obviously, they were coupled with physical movement. And so that, to me, was a really, really useful experience. And I think there's again, like. I think that psychology as a field is coming around, but there has been such a divide in terms of sort of, like, bodily practices and psychotherapy and so forth. That's just, like, really false and unhelpful. And so, you know, I love the idea of spending more time, for instance, doing yoga. And I. I sort of end up choosing other forms of exercise. But. But it's again, like, I aspire to having more of that in my current practice. But there are these kinds of, like, holy feeling spaces that you can find sometimes in the world of things like yoga that can be really, really powerful.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

And I would wholeheartedly encourage people to try that stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Stuff in the book, I think you talk about chanting and singing, don't you?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Why is that helpful?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So my first experience with chanting was in that slightly culty yoga studio that I used to go to a long time ago. But there is actually data from neuroscience about how sort of chanting and singing with other people can release oxytocin in our bodies, which is a hormone that is associated with really positive feelings and bonding. And so there is lots of reason to think these are useful kind of powerful techniques that act on our bodies. In all sorts of ways. And I think it's so interesting to think about religious traditions that include chanting in one form or another, singing in one form or another. They're kind of very, very ancient. And so there's something there. Absolutely. That people understand. I mean, for many adults, that's just not part of our life anymore. Whereas children, they're singing in a choir or they're having all kinds of experiences like that. But many of us, us don't get a lot of that anymore. But it's quite powerful.

[Podcast Host]

Flow.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

You talk about that in the book as well.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

What does flow mean? And actually can we achieve flow at home?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes, we can achieve flow at home. So flow is a term that came into psychology in the 1970s and now it's sort of like a big area of research. It's really, really interesting. So flow is like a type of hyper focused attention kind of. And it's a state that we can enter into in sort of like infinite ways, certainly many of them at home. So a lot of flow research is on athletes and sort of the states of mind they enter into when they're doing extreme sports, for instance, or like surfing is a big one. Flow is also something we can experience doing like totally sedentary activities. Like you could be writing and enter into a state of flow. So what you tend to notice is that you sort of lose a sense of time. Your focus feels really sort of like specific and complete. Your mind is sort of naturally moving from one thing to the next. It's a really good feeling. It's something like you might notice it's happened because it just ended.

[Matt Gibbard]

Yeah, right.

[Podcast Host]

Because you're not thinking about it at the time.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, you're sort of in it. And you can find experiences of flow that are with other people. Like in a conversation. It can emerge, but. But you can also find them by yourself at home. I think you might realize after the fact that you were in a state of flow during an interaction with your family in which everyone was sort of fully engaged in a meaningful way and there was no sort of outward pull, but you might find it sitting at your desk working. I mean, one researcher I talked to talked about how you can have flow doing the dishes because your mind might be somewhere that's really sort of focused and internal and you're doing this thing with your hands at the same time. And so flow is not exclusive to sort of like special activities or anything like that. It can be like quotidian.

[Podcast Host]

Doesn't have to be extreme sport.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

No, you do not have to do any like skydiving or anything to have a flow, you know. And so flow to me is really, really interesting because basically, like, you can't be anxious while you're experiencing flow. The two don't coexist. So I was really, really interested in sort of like thinking about how to kind of experience more flow and what sort of what makes it possible to enter into flow. And a lot of the research on that talks about how you have to sort of like first tolerate struggle. And so like, if you imagine it in a work setting, if you're trying to write something and the first like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it's like hard going. You kind of want to get up. You don't really like, you're kind of like, I could do some other stuff right now. This is too frustrating. And then you get into it and then maybe you have 20 minutes of really great flow state and you get some ideas that you feel really good about and then it ends and then you have to go through more struggle and then you maybe get it again. Right. So that's like, it's cyclical in that sense.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Practical ideas for in the home then. Yeah, let's think about that.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Do you have any ideas about how you can set yourself up at home to combat anxiety? And I think about things like lighting materials, space, things like that. I mean, I can talk about some of my own experiences there, but do you have any thoughts on that stuff?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, I mean, I do think that your point about lighting is really meaningful. That sort of like having. And I think, you know, for some people that means they want tons of sunlight. For me, that is totally overwhelming. Like, I don't want to be in a. In a room that's like flooded with sunlight all the time. Like, I find California, like very bright in a way that I don't really like. You know, I like to feel sort of more like womb, like.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Kind of like what to me feels calm is like these sort of more holding spaces. And that's a matter of personal preference, of course. But having things in your home that feel special and personally meaningful makes me feel kind of at ease. And for me, that is like having my books around, Having these books around that I have schlepped from many home through all these different places because I care about them and they mean something to me. Having objects that feel sort of sentimental in some sense, those things really feel like grounding to me.

[Podcast Host]

Give us an example of what you've got objects wise, then that gives you

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

that Feeling, oh gosh. I have sort of like a collection of these like really lovely crystals that I don't consider medicinal. I'm not, I don't sort of think of them in that sense. But I do find them like aesthetically really beautiful and I like the, the sensation of them and they're really special to me and I have them on my desk. I'm not sort of someone who knows a lot about sort of like the metaphysical principles behind crystals, so I can't take that. But I can say that I do kind of have like a sense of their natural beauty and the idea that they are naturally formed. That feels really earthy to me in a way that I really like. I also love textiles. I really love textiles. I love embroidery and sort of like fabric arts and things like that. So those are the kinds of objects in my home that I am really sort of attached to and who. I find them very beautiful. And I find the idea that you can sort of see someone's hands in them really remarkable. And that sort of feels again, earthy to me in a way that I love.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think when you can sense the hand of the maker in something that I think is very, is a very calming thing actually. And I think that my rule around the home generally with materials and the stuff you live with is just to go for as much that's natural and, or handmade as you can. I think we all kind of know that instinctively, but we don't always think about it.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It.

[Podcast Host]

So that's why a wooden floor always feels more grounding, I think, to live with than something that's, let's say ceramic, that's a bit clangy or you know, because if you have a harder man made material, the sound bounces off it and gives a reverberation, the light bounces off it and causes glare. And these things do have an effect on your everyday existence, I think.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, absolutely. And I think sometimes we don't realize until we're in a different space what we might feel like without those sort of. Those elements that impact how light feels and how sound feels and all of those sorts of qualities. So I absolutely agree with you.

[Podcast Host]

And let's say you're hyper vigilant like we talked about earlier. I think we should be doing anything we can at home to just turn down the volume on everything. And that means living with soft materials that absorb sound. It means probably living with colors that feel quite grounding and settling, perhaps related to the natural world in some way.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Some kind of connection to nature. Even if we live in a really super urban environment, we can still choose to live with stuff that somehow reminds us of the natural world. Some plants, whatever, something that connects us to nature. You talked about space and you, you, you're, you're drawn to kind of womb like spaces, which I think is really, really interesting actually. And I think, actually I've been thinking about this a lot and researching it. But the, if you take tribes in Africa and places like that that have had no influence from the western world, the houses and the huts that they build, they tend to be very womb like, so they're actually really quite rounded, containing cosseting spaces. And I think that's the human instinct. But I also think we have an instinct for prospect as well. So there's the prospect refuge theory, the idea that we need to seek refuge because on the savannah we needed to hide from threats, maybe in a cave or something like that. But there's also, you need prospect, which is you need a vantage point to be able to see predators coming and to be able to identify food sources and stuff like that. So I think, I think spatially we should be going for a combination of those two things. So we need to be able to retreat and we have our retreating spaces, usually bedrooms. It could be a bathroom, it could be a study somewhere. We feel very contained. But it's also really nice, I think, to have a space that is a bit more communal, is a bit more people coming and going and also just has a bit more sense of openness to it. It doesn't have to be massive, but I think ideally that communal space is the lightest part of the home.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

And if you have a view, brilliant. If you don't, that's okay too. But you know, you see the point I'm making.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So I think once we start to think about those internal spaces a bit more, we can realize that we can set them up for sort of success in terms of our mental well being, I think. And then there's the kind of community aspects as well. So you talked about having moved so many times.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, there is a lot of research, isn't there, on the power of feeling connected to other people and that obviously lessening our feelings of anxiety and promoting mental health in general. So how do you look on that? Because you haven't put down roots, but kind of now you have. What's your own experience with that? And what do you think about that idea of community and belonging being important in this context?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

It's so important. I mean, I think I pride myself in being a good friend even at a long distance. I really put a lot of effort into maintaining the friendships that I've had for many years, even with people who I don't get to see very often. And of course it goes without saying the same is true of family. But I think also there is something about having people where you are, you know, having that sense of local community. And that has been, it's been, it's been. I mean, it takes time, you know, you don't, you don't get that in six months. And so I think that can be. I think in some ways I've been lucky because our moves have often been, you know, our moves have been with film production and so we've had this built in community of people we know from that sort of transported with us. But at the same time, I think as, you know, as we've been here for longer, I've started to have, you know, I've been able to build a community outside of that that's not transient and that, I mean, it's certainly always a work in progress, but it means a lot to me, you know, and it's like, I think it's important to find the right people, you know, to find the people you click with. And sometimes it's hard to sort out what makes that be the case. You know, it's sort of, it's just a feeling. And so I think for me in adulthood, I've been lucky to make some really wonderful lifelong friends and some of them are now here and some of them I am sort of texting with all day, you know, who live far away. But I, I think feeling a part of a community is a huge part of sort of like our mental well being across the board. There's so much research on the detriments of loneliness and social isolation for children, for teenagers, for adults, for the elderly. And so everything we can do to sort of become part of communities that we can contribute to and count on, I think is sort of like a long term piece of our well being. You know, it's great now to have a friend you can call, but it's also like this is part of how we feel embedded in a society over time.

[Podcast Host]

I love that what you said, I didn't realize that. But you've moved a lot, of course, because you've been on film locations and this idea that you have this family, this extended family that you take with you, that makes a lot of sense actually.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, it's been in many ways, like, one of the. The most lovely parts of it is getting to make these bonds, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So what kind of places have you been?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Let's see. Well, we lived in Belfast.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, really?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

We've lived. That was sort of in the thick of the COVID pandemic. We lived in Belfast, and after we lived in Belfast, we came to London, and then we went back to the US for like, nine months, back to our home state of New Hampshire. And that was sort of an interesting experience because it was. It was temporary, but it felt. Felt sort of like a return home after the pandemic, getting to see people, speaking of not seeing people for a long time. So that was sort of an interesting period. We lived in Prague after that, and Prague was a wonderful place to live. I mean, I can only. The problem is that I don't speak Czech, but that was such a gift. It was amazing to be there. And then most recently, back to London.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So, yeah, So a lot of sort of moving about. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So did you and Robert meet in New Hampshire then?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

We did.

[Podcast Host]

From the same place?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

We did, yeah. We're from the same place.

[Podcast Host]

Did you grow up together then?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

We did, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, seriously?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, we met as kids. Yeah. We grew up together.

[Podcast Host]

So when did you get together then?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

We both found ourselves in New York as adults. He moved there before I did, but we both ended up there, essentially, and I was there for university, So I was 18, and, you know, the rest is history.

[Podcast Host]

That's amazing, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

So it's been a long time. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

How lovely.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, some of us are lucky enough, I feel, to have grown up in a place and to feel huge attachment to that place and still feel like we want to be there. But actually, for most of us, that's kind of not the case, and we end up somewhere different and we end up putting down roots somewhere. And it's a bit arbitrary, isn't it? Cause, like, you know, you're both from the other side of the ocean and you settled here and you've got a son who's seven, Right?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you're living your life. He's growing up here now.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You've chosen to be here, but you sort of could have chosen to do that in Prague or Belfast or New York or anywhere else.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Right, right. Right.

[Podcast Host]

So I kind of feel like we sort of make these decisions and we have to kind of commit to them and really invest ourselves in social connections and the place that we decide to live in because there's so much research Isn't there on the importance of social connection in terms of helping with anxiety and depression especially? So I think it's great. And I really hope you're here for the long term because it does seem to be the case that you need to kind of just go for it in a place.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I 100% agree with you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I mean, and those kinds of those meaningful bonds like we were talking about, they don't happen overnight. You have to. To feed into the system kind of, you know, and I think having kids is sort of like a natural way to meet new people because they have their friends and their worlds. Right. And there is this kind of like natural support giving that can happen in those contexts. And I think as an adult, it can be harder to find those places to meet people and bond in that way. But I think, you know, you do have to commit to it. You sort of have to say, like, I'm going to make an effort to meet people and to be part of the infrastructure of my neighborhood, things like that. And I think it requires effort. It doesn't just happen. And I can be a bit introverted in some ways. I can tolerate a lot of alone time and not asleep. It. I mean, I don't want to be alone all the time, but I can tolerate a lot of alone time. And so I have to sort of remind myself it's. It feels good to go out and have an interaction in, you know, in this community. It doesn't have to be like my best friend. It can just be sort of part of the fabric of this little miniature piece of society, you know, and it goes a long way.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Gibbard]

So we've covered a lot of ground,

[Podcast Host]

I think, with this conversation. But if you could sort of summarize how you think the home specifically can help us feel a bit more grounded, help us with this thing we call anxiety that so many of us live with.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

What would you say?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I guess I would like to imagine that we can sort of see like a mapping on of the home that we try to cultivate in our minds with our physical homes. Sort of like the sense of striving for like an inner peace or a sense of peace in our physical environment that you can always go back to. You know, that it's always there. Like you can come back to yourself in a difficult period. You can go into the physical space of your home and feel that sense of peace and ease. Whether your aesthetics are like hyper modern, I don't know, white marble or something, or something like dark and womb, like, like me you know, so I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Like, I think this idea that we can have this touch point to return to that's stable and consistent feels like something that we can do no matter where we live, no matter how often we're moving, to try to cultivate that feeling in a space.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I think that's so. Right. That sort of enlightenment, I think, isn't it?

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

I'm not there yet.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. But I'm not sure any of us are, are we? But it really is the thing to strive for is that feeling in a home, regardless of where you are.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

That's right. I think that's what we should all sort of aim for and try to instill in our kids, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks so much. Yeah. Just to reiterate, I really would recommend anyone to read the Narrowing.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

I think it's a really, really engaging read on a, you know, slightly bleak subject.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Let's be honest, my favorite topic. All bleak. But thank you so much. I'm really. I was honored to be. To be here today and just really delighted that you read my book.

[Podcast Host]

Brilliant. Thanks, Alessandra.

[Dr. Alexandra Shaker]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you.

[Matt Gibbard]

Thanks very much for listening along today. Regular listeners among you will have noticed that we're now releasing a new episode every week.

[Podcast Host]

Hurrah.

[Matt Gibbard]

We'll be alternating between the main podcast episode, so those ones where I do a guest interview and a house tour with episodes like this one with Alexandra, where I talk to particular specialists about their area of expertise in relation to the home. So coming up soon, we've got a very memorable conversation with Alain de Botton, who tells me why anyone who's obsessed with their home is probably deeply insecure. Guilty as charged. I get cozy with Sue Stuart Smith in her greenhouse for a chat about the link between gardening and the mind. And I talked to the Japanese architect Takiro Shimazaki about why he thinks it's important to live with fewer things and touch the earth lightly. Don't forget to follow the show on your chosen podcast platform and you'll also find us, of course, on YouTube and Instagram at homingwithmat. This episode was produced by Pod Shop, with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again and talk to you soon. Bye for now.