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Foreign.
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Welcome to a new episode of Homing In. Today's guest is the fabulous Bethan Laura Wood. Bethan is, of course, a designer and she designs everything from furniture to lighting to textiles and all sorts of other things as well. And you'll find some of her work on display at the moment at the Design Museum in London. Bethan uses herself as an artwork in many ways, so she presents herself to the world like some sort of human peacock. She dyes her hair different colours, she wears layers of vivid clothing and she puts dots on her cheeks. Her flat in East London, as I discovered, isn't exactly demure either. So we recorded this podcast in the company of various hats and handbags, a jar of balloons and liquid and a lamp shaped like a jellyfish. In this conversation, we dig into the differences between collecting and hoarding. The objects Bethan lives with are like a cast of characters in a film. So the way she arranges them isn't just about what looks good together, but she's also thinking about the stories they tell going back to her childhood. She tells me about dressing like what she calls a 1950s cool dinner lady, which, I must admit, I'd have loved to have seen, and how watching TV inspired her to apply for the Royal College of Art. We talk about the impact of bullying and how she's been shaped by her dyslexia. She's such a fascinating character, I think, and I really, really enjoyed getting to know her better during this conversation. So here it is and I very much hope you enjoy it. Bethan, hello. Thanks for having us. Thanks for the tour around the flat. Absolutely incredible. We will talk about this, but I'd love to take you back, first of all, to your childhood home. Where are you from?
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So I grew up in the Midlands in Shropshire. So I say I'm from Shrewsbury. I was born in Manchester, but I grew up in Shrewsbury. That was where I kind of lived most of my childhood.
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B
Okay, so Shrewsbury. Ish. And what kind of house was it? What kind of building was it? What kind of flat was it?
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A
What? My parents home. So when we were very little, it was like a smaller house. I can't remember if it was detached or not. I just. I remember it had a great. I remember we had lots of apple trees in the garden. So we had lots of apples. That's one of my main memories of that house. And then we moved to the house that my parents still live in now, which is the house I have most memories about, which originally was, I think, had been converted into flats and not lived in for 18 months. So when we first moved in, you had to go up in the front door to go upstairs and the back door to be downstairs. And so they then kind of set about slowly putting that house back together as one house and DIYing and wallpapering and doing all sorts to that house. And that's the one they live in now.
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B
So you still go back there, do you, to visit them?
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A
I used to go pretty regularly back in the summer around my mum's, the week before my mum's birthday, because there's an annual flower show that happens in the. There's like a big quarry park area in the middle of town and there would be the Shrewsbury flower show that would happen every year. And so I would go back for this and my mum would enter plants and I would bring friends. Quite often I'd bring friends that aren't in the UK to come with me to my hometown and experience all the fun of the fair, of the flower show. And, yeah, I think as a teenager or late teens, I was definitely ready to leave Shrewsbury and I was, you know, very hungry to get to the rca. And I think as I became settled in being based in London and felt more stable that I live here, I could really go back and appreciate Shrewsbury as being a beautiful town because I'd kind of disassociated the teenage angst from my association. So it's really nice to go back there.
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B
So something about your parents. Your dad's an architect, is that right?
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A
Yes. So my dad's an architect and he specializes in hospital and healthcare. So he predominantly works for NHS hospitals in the UK and then in other countries it's quite often the hospital or the larger kind of healthcare systems than necessarily private. But he does do some private. But his passion is really for the nhs and so he's been in that line of architecture all my life. So it's a very particular genre and he sometimes talks about it and I quite enjoy overhearing when he kind of goes encyclopedic in his knowledge of outlet points that you need for certain types of operating tables or systems that you need for particular types of healthcare. So I find that really fascinating, even though my obsession with details is in a completely different direction. I think there's definitely an obsessional lilt that comes from.
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B
That's from him.
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From him, yeah. And then my mum is now retired, but she was an occupational therapist. So I think partly where my dad went into healthcare specialism was because of my mum training to be an occupational therapist.
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B
So they're Both sort of involved in the same area. Even healthcare, really, indirectly, which is interesting. So has that had any impact on you, do you think? I mean, they sound. They must be quite caring people, right? I mean, it sounds like your childhood, therefore would have been very safe and secure and, you know, all that kind of thing. Is that a fair thing to say?
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A
No. I've got really supportive parents. I've been very lucky that I have. I have parents that have also facilitated my desire to do the direction of work that I do, and they've always worked really hard to also provide stability to allow me and my sister to do what we wanted for our adult lives.
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B
And what about siblings?
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A
So I have one sister, Sarah, and she's two years older than me and she lives not that far from here now, it's in Norfolk, and she has two children and her husband. And she also. Now does. I forget the proper title of her job, but she also does teaching and assisting with young adults and also to do with kind of helping people find a way to live in the situations that they have and. Yeah, so again, another kind of caring profession.
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B
Yeah, that's so interesting, isn't it? So you've gone down quite a different path. Not saying you're not caring, but you've gone down quite a different path. So what do you put that down to? Where did that come from?
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My mum always says that both me and my sister liked to create and make, but I kind of needed to do it, whereas my sister enjoyed doing it. But it wasn't like a fundamental element. In the same way that I don't think I could coat without it, if that makes sense. So I don't quite know why my dial is like more turned up than others.
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B
So when you say that you couldn't cope without it, what do you mean? You don't think that you would cope with not being able to use your hands and make stuff.
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I just don't see that there's a separation, especially not anymore. I don't think there ever really was, to be fair. And now I have built up a world in which there really can't be. I can't imagine it not being there, being not a way that I could connect somehow to creativity in a form, one form or another within my life. So if for some reason tomorrow I suddenly dried up on all my design work and there was nothing there with that, I don't think it would mean that then I would stop making. I maybe would be making different things or I'd be doing more drawing or I'd Be doing sewing more. I don't know. For me, it's part of the language of what makes life. And so I wouldn't want to not be creative.
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B
I really like that. That's lovely. So when you make things, what are you actually doing? What's your favorite discipline? When you're getting hands on, what are you up to?
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I do like making a lot. I get fear of making those sometimes. I think that's. I think especially if I haven't done, like, types of woodwork for a while. And then you kind of get a bit worried about whether you know how to, like, you know, cut a piece of wood. But I. When I'm doing it, I really enjoy doing it. And sometimes, for example, the show I have on at the design museum right now, we remade quite a few models for this show. And I hadn't done some paper model making for a little bit, and I'd forgotten how much I just like sitting and building models. And I just find it very therapeutic and very kind of calming. So I. Yeah, I like. I definitely like making. I enjoy making patterns. I enjoy drawing. Like, I was drawing for a client's project recently and I was like, oh, this is very nice. I can just sit and do this for. For a couple of weeks. And not that I'm not picky. I think I. That's partly why I built a practice that I talk as being mixed discipline. Because I enjoy being able to move around different, working with different materials and exploring different materials. When I was younger, I thought I was going to do ceramics as a discipline. I thought I would potentially would do ceramics at the rca. But then I don't know what changed. Where I kind of was like, maybe I just didn't. I had a fear of having to, like, not be allowed to touch other materials that then I backed away to somewhere where I could still do ceramics and other things. So, yeah.
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B
So what can you remember being a child and making stuff? Like, what do you feel that that's just an innate thing that you do?
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I definitely always was making stuff or painting or drawing. As a very young child, I was. I don't think I had much understanding of, like, all the different ways in which you could be creative. So the kind of. The default one is artist. You kind of. That's one of the earliest ones. You kind of know. I would draw and paint a lot, and then I did a lot of sewing. Cause my mum's a really great sewer and I'm terrible at crocheting. I can't get the tension. But she's really into crocheting. And so my dad is the architect, but my mum also does a lot of creative craft based things. So we did a lot of paper mache and glue and all of this kind of stuff as a child. And then I remember, I think my mum still has it somewhere in their house. We went to a friend's of theirs and they had like a garage with some tools and I was allowed to make some balsa wood things. So she's got like. I made a balsa wood truck but obviously the wheels had to move. So that's one. I can't remember how old I was at that, but I know that I was quite determined that the wheels must move. So that was maybe preempting my. My first forays into wanting things to be like objects or designed with functionality in some guise or form.
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B
So what sort of personality were you? If you could summarize it, at that kind of age? What were you like as part of that sort of family unit? What would your parents have said? You were like?
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I think alternative is probably a word that was used with me and then. Yeah, and creative. And those are probably the two main ones that they would have associated.
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B
So what would alternative have meant to them?
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So I think, I mean, I started choosing to wear more unusual things from a young age. I can't. I don't know. What age are you in year eight? I always year eight, but I feel.
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B
Like 13 in year eight. My daughter's in year seven. You're 13.
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So I think probably around 13, maybe a bit earlier. But definitely I remember year eight being quite like. Also I did my art two years early. So I think by the year eight, I was already being kind of separated from. Not in a bad way, but like because I did my art to use early, like on lunchtime and break times, instead of like maybe playing and making friends, I would be like doing charcoal drawings of naked ladies which people found kind of slightly unusual. And I was just really into Degas and he had lots. I like, I did the ballerinas, but there was also lots of like bathing women or something. So I remember like doing charcoal versions of this and yeah, so that maybe that's not the best way to make friends at that point. So probably around, yeah, from early teens or just before, I think that point where you start to have more of a understanding of yourself as a individual versus being part of your family unit. So then I would start to dress more unusually or be interested in vintage clothes or doing funny things with my hair or funny things with My makeup and stuff. So yeah, they were quite tolerant of that. As long as it was like tidy and my skirt was not short, then it was kind of allowed.
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B
Okay, and so what did the other kids at school make of you then? At that point?
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A
They weren't the nicest people in the world. I think even there was like one alternative group that wore like kind of. I think there was a big thing for the. It's not fishnet tights is the wrong type of tight, but tights where the weave structure of the tight was a pattern. And this was like a thing where at school which you could get away with having within the school uniform policy. So I remember there was like a group of like the cool alternatives and they like. I think they even refused me access to their club. So I wasn't quite vibing in their. In their direction of what alternative but cool should be.
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B
Do you think that because of what you look like, do you reckon? Yeah, yeah. Purely because of that.
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A
Well, I'm sure maybe also because of my personality. Maybe was not that cup of tea. But it was definitely like they were alternative. But there was still quite a uniformed look that they went for as a group. And I was not fitting that group. I think I can't remember which year it was that my mum, I think. Cause you could make your own school uniform. So my mum one year made me like a giant baby doll dress with big buttons. So I had that one year and then another year I had like a folded over kind of 1950s. Like a 1950s cool dinner lady. I can't. It was like a cut off a dress. I think my mum had that I really liked the shape of. So we made that as my school summer uniform. So. So I'm not sure like my references were quite vibing with their interests in what alternatives should be.
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B
That's so fascinating though, isn't it? So interesting. I mean, did that go as far as bullying or was it more that just you were an outsider?
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A
Oh yeah, no, there was bullying. We've got some lovely letters at home from people who put chewing gum in my hair and things like this when they're forced to write apologies. I mean, I'm sure that there's a lot worse bullying going on. I've heard of people having really awful times at school. So it was just the kind of general undercurrent of just people being nasty to you or questioning you as a person or I think I got called 60s lesbian throwback, hippie, Jippo, something like all those words all together and I was like, ah, they're all quite cool things. So I don't really have a problem with any of these but if you want to call that an insult, that's. That's your bag. So yeah, it was, yeah. School is always not the nicest of thing of times where people are kind of trying to fight to work out an identity or there's quite a pack herds kind of point where I think when we got to sixth form I had a lot of people coming up to me and being like, it wasn't me, it was the group. I love 1960s clothes or I've come out now and I'm so sorry for being, you know, mean to you at school. But it was, I don't know, it's part, it was part of the course of my experience and so I think I. It wasn't nice at the time but I also, I think kind of was aware that it wasn't forever. Even though I got proved wrong, I still felt quite determined in my mind that I say wrong at that time. But then I stand by it now because I've managed to make my own career and not have to change. But I remember like desperately wanting to be a school official or a head, a house official, you know, when they do this at school. And I remember one of the girls that was not very nice to me who just looked me up and down and was like, but just look at you. Why do you think that they'd choose you? Just look at you. And I was like, yes, but I've just won loads of awards for the school with my art. Nobody cares that I dress funny. And then she, she was proven right because obviously I didn't get picked. But then, you know, you roll forward multiple years and I didn't, I haven't changed the fact that I enjoy expressing myself with my clothes and that, that in a sense has become part of something I've been able to use to kind of give an identity that's different to other people to give my. A place with, with my work. I remember being like really dressed down and being like, they would never do that. They, they know how much I've done for the school and being like, oh yeah, okay, maybe, maybe not. They do want someone that doesn't look so weird in pictures.
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B
I mean, credit to you. I think that you've just plowed on, you know, has that stayed with you, that those kind of early experiences, is that part of you that just wants to show them?
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A
I think, yeah. I mean there was always some parts where it was like just Wait, you'll see. Wait and you'll see. But I also, I don't know, I also think it's. It's not that fulfilling to focus on it. I was obsessional about other things, so I didn't need to obsess too much about that. And then I think by the time I moved to sixth form and then people were kind of more into alternative dressing or whatever, then it kind of. It was a different ball game once you're out of that kind of secondary school environment. I think it was definitely for sure when I moved to London or I started first at Kingston University and then to Brighton and then to London. Like in those years, I definitely found my tribes or groups that were more like Akin. And then it kind of. Yeah, you kind of move on with living.
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B
That's something that I've heard a lot on this podcast, is that people generally find art school and then they just realize that they can be who they want to be. But you, I think I'm right in saying, saw the Royal College of Art on a BBC TV show, right?
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A
Yes. I'm very much the TV bunny generation and I'm quite dyslexic, so I'm not. I mean, I do read books, but I find retaining information that way quite difficult. And podcasts now I listen to loads, but that wasn't so much a thing. So my main way of kind of getting information was recording TV programs and things. So I have a very worn out VHS tape of all the programs that I could record from this series they did on the BBC of the Royal College of Art. And I think every, every week was a different subject and each week I'd be like, oh no, I want to do that or I want to do that one. And I remember quite vividly the. I think it was still quite early of Ron taking over the design products. And apparently Martino, who became my tutor later at the rca, he's in the background of one of these shots. And then Arash from. Arash and Kelly, who both have taught. Arash taught me on my foundation and then Kelly in Brighton that Arash is in this TV program. So it feels slightly like I've stalked some of the people in the program later in life.
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B
But yeah, and Martino is Martino Gamper, of course. Now that's okay. So Martino Gamper is, you know, a legendary designer and has been a big influence on you, hasn't he?
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A
Yeah, he was my tutor at the rca, him and Jurgen beyond, and they were a really big influence on me. And My work and kind of understanding how to elevate my work to the next level. And then I live like five minutes away from Martino now. Well, not currently. I think he's in New Zealand right now, so he does run away. Bit further away.
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B
He's trying to get away from you.
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A
Yeah. So I can't, you know, that's a little far to go. But in general, he's an amazing. I think he's an amazing designer, but he's also someone who's been really fundamental in supporting group of designers within London and the UK and work to make interesting group shows. And also as someone who's really a really supportive designer. So I've continued to be very close with him and met then other designers that have been his students. So we were talking in my house, I have some pieces by Max Lamb, who was also a student of Martino and is also a good friend of Martino now. So, yeah, there's kind of a. Well, there's a lot of us that all connect back to the rca.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Within the design and creative community still in London. So it was definitely a. A really important place. So I. Yeah, I watched that. I think it was 1990 or 91, something like that. That was on the TV. Was it 1990? 90, maybe 1999. You could. The power of Google will tell you.
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B
Yeah, right. Better than I will sort it out for us.
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A
Exactly.
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B
It reminds me, as you're talking of. I interviewed Christopher Kane on this podcast and he grew up watching crap tv, right? Prisoner Soul Block H, like the fashion TV channel, and he thinks that was massively formative for him. And in fact, he even did a whole. He did a whole show based around Prisoner Cell Block H, which I think is brilliant. But I love the idea that you're just sitting there watching the BBC, thinking, wow, this place looks amazing. This is kind of. For me. So you identified it that way and then you got to the RCA and what was it like? Did you feel the weight of that in some way being part of that institution? What did it actually feel like to be there?
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A
Oh, that. I mean, I did the classic. There's a very classic trajectory that happens to most people when they go to the rca. Once you get in and then you, like, panic and lose your marbles and kind of get lost for quite a long period of time. And then you kind of at some point managed to dig yourself out of a panic hole and then produce some work. So I classically lost my mind when I got there.
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B
And really. So it's like imposter syndrome, I think.
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A
Yeah, a combination of that. And then I think I'd spent so long with a focus to get there. I don't think, like, when I got there, then I was like, what do I do now? And then I think it was also quite overwhelming in the sense that I was suddenly there with so many other amazingly talented creative people. It was like, you know, really stepping into another level of creativity. And not that there was some amazing people that were studying at Brighton and also on my foundation, but I think it's. There's a reason why at that time, and for some time, the pull of getting into the RCA also was part of this kind of gathering of really amazing people. And I just. I don't think I'd been around so many people that were all at a level where then you're like, yeah, the imposter feeling becomes really, like, strong. And then I think for me, I got really panicked about. Because I really, really respected Jurgen Bey. I loved his work and Martino's work. So I also started to get really panicked about wanting to have something good enough to show them or to discuss. And then that can become, like, again, like a cycle that you get stuck in. So I'd get more and more panicked when I, like, they would be, like, sitting near where I am giving a. Tutoring somebody else. Then it would be my turn coming up, and I'd start to panic. And then they could be, like, at the other side of the room and I'd start to then just knowing, like, I just got into a bit of a panic wobble where I just couldn't. And then I couldn't think. When I was, you know, I desperately wanted to discuss design and things, but my brain was just gone. And so I remember Jurgen, bless him, trying to sort, like, some sessions for me to have some tutorage from somebody outside of the college or to try and break this kind of thing that I'd got myself into where I was getting, like, into a panic where I just sit and cry when he would come near me and was like, so, you know, bless his heart. He was so patient to try and help me find a way to be able to just, like, do a tutorial, like, so. Poor guy. But, yeah, so I obviously got through that. But there was definitely a window where I was finding it very difficult to. To function in front of, like, my idols. And that's why I spent quite a few of my projects walking around London rather than in the college.
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B
Okay, that's interesting. You thought, get out of those four walls and Maybe you'll loosen up a bit.
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A
Yeah, I think it was the combination. The platform that I was part of was. The manifesto of the platform was about kind of working with the city and looking at the nuance of what was in London and kind of direct manufacturing. And so part of our manifesto did mean that it made a lot of sense that I would walk around the city looking for ways to make work or this kind of thing. And then I think for me, I quite enjoy kind of walking and looking. And so that was less stressful than being sat at my desk kind of like a frightened rabbit, not knowing what to do. I did a lot of kind of paper play interventions on things in the streets. And then eventually the Super Fake marquetry project came from this kind of observation of East London in particular, and the kind of materials that build up the city and this kind of obsession with laminates. There's the kind of panic led to me finding what would then become a very kind of a rich seam. Yeah. And a way in which I've carried on designing and making ever since. I wish in some ways that I hadn't been so panicked so I could have, like, enjoyed more the art bar. And. And. And I did meet amazing people at the rca. But, yeah, I did panic a lot. But this is a lot of. If you ask a lot of people, this is. They all had a similar kind of experience.
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B
So we've touched on this a little bit, Bethan. But your personal style, the way that you present yourself, the way that you dress, is just such a massive part of who you are. I suppose, to start with, on that, could you just describe to people listening and not watching, what are you wearing today? How. How would you describe it?
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A
Very minimal.
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B
Very minimal.
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A
Yeah, definitely. I only wear black.
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B
Are you an architect?
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A
No, I. Well, have I got. I have got stripy, colorful socks on. So that is part of the. Of an architect's vibe, but maybe not chunky knits. I enjoy wearing a lot of color and layers and pattern. It's a look of layering and a mix of things from different periods. I have a pochant for the 60s and 70s, kind of psychedelic patterns. And quite often I'll have some sort of hat or headgear on. And I've been wearing dots on my face for many a year. They have moved around a little bit upon my face and changed color.
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B
Oh, yeah, they're red today. So why the dots?
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A
Who knows?
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B
Okay, so you can. You can't put your finger on why not really?
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A
I'm sure there's a connection to clowns at some point that I enjoyed. I really don't have any strong memory of. Of dissecting exactly why I thought from one day to the next they were suddenly an important and correct way to present my face over some of the many other kind of alternative face makeup looks that I've done, but they've been one of the most consistent things. I've dabbled in eyebrow adornment for a few years and I've dabbled in more extreme makeup over different years. When I first moved to London, there was quite a. A resurgence of the kind of club scene and art scene being merged with the boombox and antisocial and family and these kind of club nights that we just had the Leigh Barry opening at the Tate and there was a really great show just on at the Fashion and Textile Museum. So it's kind of a circularity that comes, I think, definitely connected with London, where there's this kind of crossovers of scenes. So there was definitely a kind of a heightened one of those scenes happening when I moved to London. So my interest in alternative dressing was like, heightened and encouraged during this window to an even more of an extreme. So, yeah, that's kind of my look.
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B
As I'm watching you describe it. The red dots on your cheeks, they kind of. They're sort of like eyes to me. I don't want to analyze it too deeply, but they feel like extra eyes.
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A
They can. Whatever floats your boat.
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B
It's so interesting. I just wonder if it's something about. I mean, I suppose the question would be, do you think you dress up because you like people looking at you, or do you think you dress up because actually it's a barrier against people looking at you?
- [31:01]
A
I think it's somewhere. Somewhere in between. And in a way, neither of those things. I enjoy to dress up for me. And if I'm engaged with my physicality being part of a conversation, then it's the physicality I choose to present myself with, but it's not necessarily done. Thinking about wanting to pull attention or like quite a lot of time people that. Well, not all the time, but that goes through waves where people think that I'm going to want to. I, like, am a performer or it's part of a performance or a costume in that way. That's not my interest. Or I'm not. I mean, I'm not naive. Like, I understand the power of an image. So it helps if I'm wanting to promote a piece of work and I do a shot with it that I Will like being more elaborate in my dressing can help to make a more interesting image that might get more coverage. But I don't. I kind of have got to a point to learn to use it as a power that I allow in rather than dressing up for other people. I'm trying to not explaining it very well, I think today. But yeah, it's like I'm not that interested to photograph myself how I look day to day all the time. But I'm aware that it makes a good picture. So of course when I'm going to an event, then I will choose to dress up. Or if I'm going, yeah, if my physicality is going to be part of the that day, then that's my choices to be to look like that. But I don't necessarily dress up in the hope that that's going to create a like performance. But it's definitely. I don't deny that having that as a layer that gives me something for people to connect with and talk about it does help to break the ice. And so that can be quite a positive. That can. I found ways for that to be a positive for me. And so I don't see that as a negative thing. But it's not. I didn't start doing it with that as being the intention, I think. I mean, I don't know, maybe if I start lying down on this couch and speaking with somebody, maybe I'd find maybe that was. But let's do it. But no, that's my dog, by the way, so I can't. If I lie down, she will get a bit squished. I think also in the same way that like, maybe it's coming up in my mind because you've asked me about these things, but in the same way as when as a child my pursuit of alternative dressing was seen as being something that potentially was going to be negative to me and would stop me being taken seriously and stop me being able to be, you know, successful. And in the same way that you can often be told as a dyslexic person that that's a negative and there is negativity. Of course, levels of dyslexia can be really make certain things difficult. But in the same way for me, I found it as being an empowering thing for me or I found a way to make it empowering. So I think some of my ways in which I digest the universe with color, for me, like when I was studying and writing, I would break down words and text, blocking them in lots of different colors because it allowed me to read them better. And so I think some of probably my ability or interest in color might be connected with the way in which my dyslexic brain reads things or breaks things down. And so I use that as a positive or, you know, like my dressing up, which was. I was told as a child or as a young adult that that was going to be a negative. I'm very proud that I can be like, well, no, not got a front cover because I dressed up, but I'm on the front cover and I'm dressed up, and it's my choice. I'm in control of it, and this is my presentation of me. And. Yeah. So I think. I don't know if that's gone a bit around the house of answering your question, but it's absolutely fascinating. Yeah. Clothing.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah. Would you describe yourself as introverted or shy or are you quite a performer?
- [35:17]
A
That's very funny, because I. I was doing another Q A for. For. Or I think for somebody. A company I'm working with, and they were trying to write text, and they had me listed as a extrovert, and I was like, am I an extrovert? I thought I was more of an introvert, but it's. I definitely think I'm more shy in, like, group things. But then I really enjoy communicating and talking and I process better. Like, with me and my team in the studio, I really like to talk through, like, what we're working on, because for me, it connects with what I can see visually in my brain, and I kind of digest what I'm doing better. So I know I'm quite. Communication is. So when I was looking at the thing about what is the difference between an introvert and an extrovert, I was like, oh, but I'm that. And I'm also that. So. Yeah. Yeah. So which is common.
- [36:16]
B
Which is common. And also you develop as you get older, right?
- [36:18]
A
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I have been forced to do karaoke for friends that are really into karaoke, and I will bend to the better enjoyment of people that I care about, but I'm not someone that's gonna jump.
- [36:32]
B
Yeah. First in the queue.
- [36:34]
A
First in the queue to be, like, you know, singing my rendition of Bjork's.
- [36:40]
B
Bjork song Violently Happy or whatever it's called.
- [36:42]
A
Yeah, I was gonna. That's the one. Everyone's noticed it's not my favorite, so it's like pagan poetry or a Kate Bush song. But now, you know, that's come back round into popular culture, so that gets used a lot but before it was more of a niche. Go to.
- [36:56]
B
Would it be. Would it be Bjork, then?
- [36:58]
A
She's my default favorite musician. Default sounds terrible. She's my favorite musician. I like her also because she's an amazingly talented person, but she's also someone who's been able to marry this combination between having a personal interest in a more elaborate identity from her visuals, but also her use of that within, connecting it to her sound and her music, and then the creation of, like, typographies around different, like, the whole, like. I think she's amazing in, like, crafting her a world that's Bjork World. And she's one of my idols, both visually and musically and as a kind.
- [37:49]
B
Of human being, I can see that you've done the same thing. You've got an extremely defined visual world, which is very rare. I think we had Zandra Rhodes on the podcast and she said, love her. Yeah, she's amazing. And she. She said that she sleeps in her makeup. She never sees herself without her in Adverted comma's face on. Does that chime with you, or are you more comfortable with just taking it.
- [38:17]
A
Off somewhere in between? I mean, I'm definitely from the Dusty Springfield school of, like, if I've got the mascara on, I don't always remember to take it off. And there are those kind of pillow shrouds of, like, mascara that happen. Yeah. I'm not like, someone who does like, a whole routine of de makeuping every night, but then I do. It depends what I'm doing. If I'm just going to the studio and I'm just. All I'm doing that day is working where my physicality isn't part of that, then I. I don't tend to dress up with makeup or these kind of things. I mean, the clothes that I'll be wearing will probably be like, clothes that I've bought and then maybe aren't, like, quite doing the right vibe, but. So they'll still be kind of colorful clothing, but maybe not kind of the B list. Yes, exactly. More the B list of things or the warm things or cool things, depending on the time of year.
- [39:23]
B
But not a pair of black jeans.
- [39:25]
A
No, I haven't worn jeans for a very, very long time.
- [39:28]
B
So how would you feel if you did? I mean, obviously, you know, so you're in. You got your game face on today because you're doing a podcast. Right. You're not in the studio. But if you were doing this in. Yeah, a pair of jeans and a T shirt. How would that feel.
- [39:45]
A
I mean, I don't think I even have a pair of jeans anymore. I literally haven't owned jeans for many, many years. I have some nice big oversized T shirts. We'll find something close to what you're after, but just not quite what you're.
- [40:02]
B
Seeing is that just because you just feel too ordinary.
- [40:05]
A
I don't know if it's about ordinary. I just wouldn't feel me. Yeah, it's not like if I go to climb a mountain or like to do something that's got a very particular activity to it that I'm not. I won't, like, try and like, find some slightly appropriate clothing. You know, my technicians at Brighton, when I was studying there, they did club together and give me a bright. This kind of orange. Actually very bright orange dungarees. Because me wearing tutus was causing them anxiety with the amount of synthetics I was wearing and the flames. So I have learned that there is a tipping point where you need to, like, be slightly aware of clothing versus heavy machinery, if it's possible. I will always lean towards something that I feel more comfortable in. It's just my com. I just don't find jeans a comfy thing. They're kind of a threatening thing of geniness on other people. They're lovely. I just. They're not my thing.
- [41:09]
B
Threatening. Why are they threatening?
- [41:12]
A
I don't know. I don't. I don't know what divorced me from jeans. I was really obsessed with one pair for many years and I remade them when they were no longer sold anymore from. I think it was miss 60s or something. They were like a very wide length jean, but I did customize them with transparent pockets that you could put things in. So I did have dismembered Barbie dolls or like cheap Barbie dolls. I couldn't afford real Barbie dolls with colorful hair and other objects that I would. I think even when I did have jeans, they were bent to my. To my will.
- [41:50]
B
To iron will.
- [41:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, I do vividly remember being like, I will not wear jeans again. And then it never.
- [41:58]
B
It's just jeans are dead to me.
- [42:00]
A
I love that they are. So. Exactly.
- [42:02]
B
So, Bethan, let's bring it back to the home. So let's talk about this place. It's just absolutely extraordinary in here. And as I said to you earlier, I could spend several days in here just exploring it. But it's a small flat, isn't it? I mean, how. How big is it?
- [42:21]
A
53.
- [42:22]
B
53 square meters. Right. So. So it's a. It's. You know. Yeah. So a lot of people listening will identify that that's, yeah, 53, 550 square feet or so of space. And yet there is so much in here, so many layers from your history and your past and so on. But let's start by saying, where are we? We're in East London.
- [42:42]
A
We're in East London. And we're in what previously was the electrical showrooms. So it's a building from the late 1920s, and it was where you'd come to see the magic and the wonder of electricity and all the things you could do with it. So there was, like, mock kitchens, I think there was like a mock cinema. Various, like, home setups to show how electricity can, you know, change your world. And then offices and various other things. And then in the 90s, I think 1996, it was bought and converted into flats. And they kind of. They did them up in the. I would call it's the kind of changing room era of doing up rather than how to sell your home. So they went with the art deco of the building. So nearly all the flats have these glass divides in them at some point that are between the kitchens and the main rooms. Cause most of the flats in this building are kind of studio one or small, two beds. So they all have a similar character. And then, sadly, my bathroom doesn't. But a lot of the bathrooms that, when they were done, when it was converted, have a lilt of the Shining kind of feel to the color of the bathroom tiles. I really like the. The tiles in the original bathrooms. I've seen. I've lived in this building for quite a long time, so I've seen the interiors of a few of the flats, so I appreciated the choices made.
- [44:15]
B
What is the shining color?
- [44:16]
A
They're like pastel, the pastel hues of the building. So the building, like the windows of the building are mint green. And then most of the woodwork inside is like this kind of pusey pink. It's not a baby pink. It's got a bit more. It's like a chewing gummy pink. It's got a bit more depth to it. And then there's also like a light blue, like a gray, purple blue. And these are like everywhere in the building. And then in the bathrooms that were done when it was converted, I think they found tiles that were these plus like a lemony yellow. It's just this kind of cheap version of the language, but kind of. It reminds me of the bathrooms in the Shining, which is one of my favorite go to references of bathroom aesthetics.
- [45:00]
B
By the way, I've got some twins if you want to borrow them, because they look very good in a corridor.
- [45:04]
A
Exactly. All corridors need a pair of twins at some point.
- [45:09]
B
So there are hundreds, thousands of objects in here. Why are objects important? Why do you collect things?
- [45:16]
A
I think for me, I've always found learning from physicality, from doing, or from being able to touch stuff and pick it up and look at it important. And I think I started collecting objects from. Even from when I was, like, living at home, I was like. We'd also go, like, my mum would take me to, like, flea markets and car boot sales and charity shops. There's a lot of charity shops in Shrewsbury, which I'm very big fan of. So I think I always kind of picked up objects and I think when I was younger and a student, it's also. It's a. It's what objects you can find accessible. So then I would pick up a lot more small objects because they were in a price point I could afford. And then you could have more of them. So you can have more different colors or different types of materials in lots of tiny cracker toys. Then, like, you know, it's much harder. Like now I've got like the daybed I'm sitting on now, which is the royal sofa by Nathalie de Pasquier and George Swarden. Like, this is a harder bad boy to move around as a student, you know. So I think I collected smaller objects to allow me to kind of be more able to move around and find things. And then I've continued to enjoy small objects and then putting them with larger objects as I've grown older. And this is after quite a cull of. I did do a purge of some of my objects at one point to like, make space for another round.
- [46:58]
B
That's interesting. So you do do culls. I suppose the question would be at what point does collecting become hoarding? Right.
- [47:06]
A
Not this point. Not yet.
- [47:08]
B
Okay, so you're the right side of the line at the moment.
- [47:11]
A
Let's hope so. You know, I live in fear of stepping over that line. I try. Like, if I have it, I have it out. I try. I get a bit. I mean, there's exceptions to the rule where I now have beautiful doors on my wardrobe by Ryo Kobayashi. And so technically, everything that's in the wardrobe is inside a box, let's say. But in general, everything that I have, I try and have out. Because if I'm not seeing it and enjoying it, then maybe I don't need to keep it and that's my nod towards trying not to become a hoarder, I suppose. But it's tricky because then, you know, now, in later years, I've been also collecting a lot more textiles. And so these. There's some things. It's better not to have them out all the time, unless you, like, put them in expensive cases where you can control the light levels. So it's a dichotomy between, oh, I'm allowed to have some things in a cupboard now because it's better for them. There are some textiles that keep folded, but in general, I keep everything out and I enjoy having it out. I like to see them. I like living with objects around. I find that comforting. Other people find it overwhelming. Or I have some people come and visit my house and count the amount of eyeballs staring at them, and you would count another pair with my dots. There's a lot of faces in. In the house, or things with faces.
- [48:40]
B
Why do you think that is?
- [48:41]
A
I don't know exactly. I think. I mean, as humans, we're always really drawn to anything that kind of registers as a face. So it's a thing that we do anyway. And then I think I enjoy these kind of masks or these kind of. These conduits of identity that are normally in kind of mask form. So I have quite a lot of those. And then a lot of severed heads. Who knows why? Like, not really something different heads, but, you know, heads. Like, there's a lovely baroque angel wooden head that's on my wall that I'm staring at, and she. She may look a little bit worse for wear. I just love that someone spent a long time carving this baroque angel to look that level of, like, unwell. Yeah, there's some good. There's some good heads.
- [49:31]
B
Do you think you have an off switch when it comes to this kind of thing? If you see something that you like the look of and catches your eye in a charity shop or a flea market or wherever it might be, can you walk away from it?
- [49:44]
A
Of course I can. Where do I want to? It's another thing that'd be a no then. No, I do. I don't. And also now, like, I mean, I joke with my friends that the ceiling is still quite empty. So there's. There's another, like, side of the box that I technically could cover. I thought of that. But I. You know, my walls are quite full. So I do have to admit to having to be more selective now maybe, than maybe in the past where I didn't have so many objects. But then I didn't have so many walls, you know, the, the two things have grown together. But at some point I'll have to move to a bigger house.
- [50:24]
B
Well, I was thinking, you know, you're sitting on a Natalie de Pasquier piece, you know, behind you is a rug that you designed.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah.
- [50:31]
B
A Gaetano Pesche light. It's all extremely high quality stuff. It's not like you've got piles of newspaper in the corner and you know, bits of old dog food. Actually there is a bed dog, but.
- [50:45]
A
I was going to say, I mean Wilma does have a habit of hiding bits of treats places. So I do have to do a hunt for the rabbit ear every once in a while.
- [50:55]
B
Yeah, but. But I guess what really strikes me about this flat is that it's obviously so Bethan. Right. It couldn't be anyone else's space, which I love about it. But also actually the bones of it are beautiful. You know, you've got this parquet floor, such a lovely big window, such light. Nice, really nice light coming through in this space as well, isn't there? And a great view of the rooftops opposite. So it just makes me think what did this look like before you got here and what attracted to it? Was it the bones that you went for?
- [51:26]
A
Well, I knew of this building. I think a lot of people that moved to East London know of the building because there's not that many of like there are smart deco buildings around, but there's not like. I don't think I know of as many that are like domestic ones. Like there's the. I can't remember what it's being used for anymore, but there's like one that's got, you know, where art deco hits the Egyptian aesthetic with the kind of colored. It's got beautiful colored tiles and columns outside of it. But I think it's now a worship space or it used to be a bingo hall. And so there are some beautiful space facades around. But. Yeah. So this, I knew of this building and I did joke when we saw like when you see the walkway, even when you come in downstairs, it's kind of green and pink, kind of zigzagging handles. It already feels like it's somewhere that probably I would live.
- [52:22]
B
It does, yeah.
- [52:23]
A
So I do feel like we came to view the flat here and it looked like the building had been painted in my color preference.
- [52:31]
B
That's amazing.
- [52:32]
A
So I was quite happy with the fact that there's rules of the building that can't, you know, like it's, it can't go beige. It's colors are mint green, pink and blue. So this, this gives me comfort. And yeah, the building has very big, big windows and my flat in particular most rooms have wall to floor windows. So the room we're sitting in right now, this faces row lane which is a small side road so it's more quiet. And then my other two windows in my library room and my bedroom, these both face out onto the courtyard where we have like a fountain. And so there's a really nice light quality in the flat. And then yeah, the parquet floor I installed quite some soon after I moved in. Yeah I've done bits bit by bit I've done some changes to the flats. So I think you'll find many people connected with Martino Gampa will have a version of this parquet floor because it's a company that he made friends with or worked with. So it's like you spot a Martino friend by the parquet. And then I put in these cylinder radiators that I've always loved. These kind of industrial.
- [53:54]
B
They're great. They're very architecty those Bethan, you know. Well, you know, you see it's all in there.
- [53:59]
A
It is. I, I think my dad approved of these radiators.
- [54:02]
B
I reckon he would have done.
- [54:04]
A
So I changed the radiators because I felt that they suited the building the, the space more. And I did the kitchen and I did my own, my own ode to the previous bathroom tiles of other flats with my color choices. And at some point I'll refurbish the bathroom a little bit more. Unusually I'm waiting for a project where someone commissions me to design bathroom tiles and then I can fully take over that space. But yeah, the bones of the building were drew me very much to it and then obviously I've chosen to fill my flat with quite a lot of stuff. So without my stuff it's of kind quite a big flat in some ways.
- [54:45]
B
Well I mean on that how, how would you feel if it wasn't filled with your Starfleet. I suppose how do you feel personally in, in more minimal spaces?
- [54:54]
A
My default is not minimal spaces. So I feel more comforted when I am sitting in a space where there's objects and things like where if it's like piles of the newspaper that you were talking about that aren't curated piles, the comfort level will change. But in general I enjoy going to people's homes and spaces where there's objects and things kind of around. I have enjoyed a more minimal space but it normally then Is very, like, curated minimal, you know what I mean? Or it's because the architecture of the building, they've done a lot of built in formal, like the. The way in which the kitchen is built in or the cabinets or whatever is the nuance of the architecture is then creating a language that's there more present. So then I can vibe with a more minimal if it's like that. But in general, most places, if you just have them without anything in them, I find them too. Too lonely.
- [55:57]
B
So interesting, isn't it, the way that we all differ on that.
- [56:00]
A
Yeah, it's different. People find different things comfortable, you know, and. Yeah, my comfort is with a few more things. A few colorful things.
- [56:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about color, then? I mean, is it that sort of art deco palette, the shining palette, as you call it? Is that what really resonates with you, or is it just color across the spectrum?
- [56:21]
A
I like lots of different colors. I think because this building already had a connection to pastel. I went with that a little bit. Maybe if. If this building had, like, dark brown brickwork or some other, like, features that would be. Maybe I would have a different palette response. And then I think just during COVID or just after Covid was really the first time I had ever painted, like, the house where I'd all been in, a house where I've been allowed to paint, you know, the walls. So I think my foray into this was maybe I did. I mean, I have a yellow wall and a green wall in here, so it's not like it's one color everywhere. I still managed to have more than one color, but I think I still played it quite safe in terms of. I've been to other houses where people have got much stronger colors. And I think when I repaint the house again, maybe I'll go one step braver and go for something more stronger. I suppose I've. I'm very comfortable, or I have more experience around color on smaller things. Cause I've always collected objects and placed color into spaces that way. So for me, learning what happened when I painted a larger area of the house, I'm still learning this, if you get what I mean, where I think other people maybe, like, I was very jealous of people when I was living at home that were allowed to paint their bedrooms, you know, a color or even if it was wrong, it's that idea that they. Or they painted it and didn't like it. It's that thing of being free to try it and then having a response to it. And I think we had wallpaper on our walls, so I wasn't allowed to change my bedroom colors or put anything up. And so I've not had that kind of experience of play to then kind of be comfortable with it more. So, yeah, it's something that I'm like. I want to push myself to understand a bit more so then I can know how to work with it more in my work, if you get what I mean. So, yeah, that will be my excuse for why I should be allowed to paint my house again at some point when I find a window of time to do it.
- [58:31]
B
So do you live here on your own or do you share it with someone?
- [58:34]
A
I share it with my dog, Wilma. Yeah, I currently live here on my own. I've had. In the past, I've had friends staying with me or living here for windows of time. I had a wonderful friend called Lars who laid. We did a swap. So he stayed and lived with me in exchange for helping me lay the floor. And the wonderful Fabian Capello, before he moved to live in Mexico, he lived here with me for a little bit. So I've dabbled with having people live here, but they also have to have a similar comfort level in terms of objects surrounding them. So I think, yeah, it's. It's a. It's more of an acquired space.
- [59:15]
B
So would you be comfortable sharing with someone else? I mean, they're here when you're not here, by the sounds of it. But would it.
- [59:20]
A
Like how we were here together? But yeah. Also not mix. I mean, it's not. It's not a huge flat. So I think I've lived on my own for many years, like, predominantly. So I think it would be interesting to see how that would go down.
- [59:35]
B
Yeah.
- [59:35]
A
But, yeah, it's currently just me and Wilma.
- [59:38]
B
Yeah. I've got this theory, Bethan, Right. That the people that obsess the most about their environment, and I'm one of them, you know, are in some ways the most sort of psychologically troubled. Bear with me on this. You know, for me, it's like a way to make sense of the world. It's a way to control my anxiety, actually, a lot of the time, because you can kind of order your own small world. Right. What would you say about yourself in that context is your. You know, because this is a very, very unusual living space. What's it doing for you psychologically, do you think?
- [60:12]
A
I feel comfortable here and I feel comforted. I've also been in a lucky position where I've been able to build an environment that also I find very stimulating for being creative or responding to creative things. So a lot of what I surround myself with I'll slowly. You might see slowly being digested into my work. So I find it comforting, yeah. To have a space like this. It's interesting that you come here and maybe for listeners it will be. If they saw my space, they'd be like, wow, that's quite an intense space. And I think as I've grown older and. And also I've got made friends with maybe more people that have a similar leaning. I've also gone to many houses of friends that I'm like, oh, I wish my house looked as good as yours. So I think I also surround myself with other people who wouldn't find this like an overwhelming house because they have just as many things as me or more.
- [61:18]
B
So you actually see it's not that unusual.
- [61:21]
A
Not amongst some of the people that I'm friends with. I think because I'm also someone who likes to collect vintage. I have a. Maybe more of that than maybe some of the other designers that I'm friends with. Their interiors have less of those types of objects and maybe they have more things that are works by them or by other designers, but that are all considered or interesting from a material or a physicality or like beautiful handles that they've made for their kitchen or things like that. I know quite a few people that have invested in creating universes to live in and I'm trying to do that for me here. And at some point I maybe will design all my handles in my kitchen. Right now they're all little vintage ones. So, yeah, it's kind of also because I design and make things predominantly that are connected with design or the domestic sphere. It's kind of interesting for me to also make like, live with some things for a while. It's not like I only want to live within my only things that I've made. I also love swapping with friends and I have things by different designers. But I think you also learn a bit about how to design something by like designing and living with it and then understanding how it functions and. Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.
- [62:41]
B
It does, but I guess as an extension of the question, you know, to ask it a bit more directly, I suppose. Are you someone that experiences depression, anxiety, anything along those lines? And do you think the home plays into that at all?
- [62:54]
A
I definitely, like, I have waves of, like, I can get overwhelmed or quite stressed with wanting to work or be what I want to do in life. And, yeah, I can be quite obsessional. I also think I have a bit of a ritual or a thing where there's that point when you kind of come out of obsessively. I also need to get to that place of obsession for projects, for me to understand the nuance of all the layers of the pattern or the color and pattern or the rhythms within something so I can kind of build it. And so I have to get to that level of obsession. And then when the project finishes, there's that comfortable and uncomfortable window where you're kind of not ready to fall into the next obsession. And so that's when I'll find myself needing to, like, you know, move all the objects in the house and reset the world that, like the universe that I built around me to be in a way that doesn't distract me. So then I can go back into the next obsessional rhythm. And I don't know if that also helps to give a break so I can move from one language to another, if you get what I mean. Or that's just my, you know, the. What's the procrastinating technique where you really need to do your tax return, but you decide that emptying all your cupboards is also really just as important and the taxman will agree to you doing that? I definitely think the meditative thing of being able to, like, set the house in a way that gives me comfort if the house is super messy because I've been working nonstop. And then I haven't had time to come home on the weekend and do stuff with my flat. Cause I have to keep on work. There's a point where it's too noisy when things aren't quite in the right places. And then so I need to reset them so that they don't interfere with my, like, what I'm doing. And I need to have that clean space, which is clean in terms of, like, all the objects are where they should be, but not empty. If that makes sense.
- [65:03]
B
It makes total sense. Yeah. The word noisy, I think, is a really good one.
- [65:07]
A
Yeah. Because I think for some people, they would find all my objects noisy. And for me, I don't find them noisy because they've been placed in groups and in rhythms and in conversations. So for me, this isn't noisy. But if, for example, like, let's say we were filming or doing more filming in here, so we have to move stuff around and so more objects get put over there. Or like when I've just lent a load of pieces that normally I have in the house, for the design museum for the next 11 months. So then I had to be like, I need to reset the room with things to find a new rhythm or a place for everything because it's too long for me to leave it, like, with an empty hole. One, because I'll be very tempted to fill it with something. And two, because it's. It was distracting me. The rhythms were offset or out of sync. So it's important that things are all put in their place, but not in the kind of lady from Misery penguin in the right orientation or I'm going to hobble your legs off kind of way in a normal person way who likes objects.
- [66:14]
B
That's just so interesting. So my wife, Faye Toogood, who, you know, does something very similar. She's also huge creative like you are. And if she has a spare afternoon to herself, which is quite rare, she will invariably spend it reorganizing things on a mantelpiece, taking everything out of her wardrobe and putting it back again in a different order and so on and so forth. It's that feeling, isn't it, that if everything's okay in your home space and it's all organized how you want it, you can then go out into the world and do what you need to do. That's something, I think, for her, how.
- [66:50]
A
It is, it's that pottering, but also this kind of mindless but not meaningless activity where there is an end result. You feel like you are. There is a start point and a finish point, so you can see that you have done something. But it's like, it's not me choosing to put, you know, that object next to this object and trying out, like, things together. Nobody else cares or it's not gonna suddenly mean that a client is gonna see it. And if I don't think it's a good combination, it suddenly has an effect on, like, work. So it's also like a way that I can kind of play and enjoy and digest or think about things. And for me, like, walking around or moving my objects or dusting my objects or whatever is this kind of in between and emotion that allows me to also free my brain a bit. But it's not like doing nothing. I don't know. It's. Yeah, so I do. Yeah, I do enjoy coming and tinkering, and I enjoy, like, I go through waves because it's also get. It goes in and out of being more or less very expensive. So I can't do it all the time. But, for example, I really enjoy being able to buy flowers and put them in the. In the space and decorate with. With these. And right now some of my favorite flowers are in season. And these the. I pronounced terribly badly because Chrysanthemums. Yeah, that's the one.
- [68:18]
B
Yeah.
- [68:18]
A
They also last very long. They're like. So I can kind of justify my allowance of. Of them when they're in season. And so I also enjoy, like that change that. That mix of permanent and ephemeral when I place flowers in the house. And. Yeah, so that's a nice kind of Sunday routine. And before I had my dog, I maybe spent more time with my plants and they've been suffering slightly, I think, the last year, because my focus has switched to a different caring for a different creature.
- [68:51]
B
So you've had her for a year, have you?
- [68:53]
A
A year and a half.
- [68:54]
B
What kind of dog is she?
- [68:55]
A
Japanese chin.
- [68:57]
B
Japanese chin.
- [68:58]
A
So I adopted her just after Salone. Not the one just gone, but the one before. So nearly two years.
- [69:04]
B
Adopted her from where?
- [69:06]
A
From the Internet. I knew I wanted to have a Japanese chin, but I didn't really want to have a puppy. So I like. There's whole chin societies that you can register with or you can follow to look to see if somebody's looking to rehome a Japanese chin. And I found her through one of these sites.
- [69:28]
B
She's a total star. I mean, she's just been so sweet and so quiet. And what I love is that when she gets excited about something, she spins in circles.
- [69:37]
A
Yes. If she's excited or needs to poo. So one of the two, keep an.
- [69:41]
B
Eye out for that. That's awkward.
- [69:45]
A
It's quite funny when. Because it's a more frantic spin, let's put it that way. And you have to learn to lasso with the leads to keep up with the spinning, otherwise you put her off her movements. So it's like when people come and see me kind of lassoing with this dog, going round at 100 miles an hour in a circle, they're like, what are you doing to your dog? And I'm like, look, it's not. It's her thing. It's not my thing. I'm just facilitating the thing. So, yeah, the chin spin. It's a thing.
- [70:14]
B
The chin spin. So what's she done for your life at home? And because it's quite different, isn't it, having that companion around all the time.
- [70:23]
A
I've enjoyed having, like, the rhythm of another living creature that I also need to kind of respect or have in my life. So before, like, let's just say I would If I. If I were like, I still work late and I still will work, especially if I'm doing like pattern building or something where I really need to get in the zone. But it's quite good that at some point Wilma will let me know, you need to stop or we need to go for a walk or play with me. And it's quite. I think it's been good for my mental health to also have something outside of my work to be focused on or be interested to focus on. Obviously it makes things a little bit more challenging for traveling and so I have to plan a little bit more. And she's a dog, she's not a child. But she's an important factor in my life and I've never had a dog before. So I've really enjoyed having that companionship and a little furry beast to entertain me and demand that I roast chicken for her and things like this. And occasionally she lets me dress her up. Ish.
- [71:38]
B
And I suppose on that subject, do you have a desire to have children?
- [71:42]
A
I don't think so. I know friends and people that it's like a really fundamental building block to their identity and their ness. I don't think it's like, I would say I don't want to not have children, but I don't think it's something that I've facilitated as being maybe something that had a focus that I must have for children versus some people, friends that I know where that is a really core.
- [72:10]
B
It's almost biological, isn't it?
- [72:12]
A
Yeah. It's like. I think for men and for women there can be this thing that I'm not sure I can explain it because I think that's why I know that I don't have it, if you get what I mean. It's not like if I met the right person tomorrow that I might reconsider the idea. I don't think I would want to have a child on my own because I just don't see. I'm not sure I'd be able to facilitate it from a financial and life point of view to be a single parent. But, you know, things can happen and if that did happen, I'm sure I would make it work. But yeah, it's not something that I'm focused on doing. I enjoy being a crazy aunt to multiple small children. And I enjoy finding, especially for parents who have more minimal aesthetics to find like a toy or something that the child is gonna be really connected to that then they have to live with in that house. I'm very good Friends with Sabine Marcellus, who's not actually that minimal. Her graphic is more minimal than mine aesthetically, but she works a lot with color, and she has a very beautiful curated home. And I remember when she had her son and I came to visit her, and we were going around markets, and I found Appa, which is this very ugly green monkey glove. It's like a glove with monkey heads on each finger.
- [73:40]
B
Nice.
- [73:40]
A
And it's. I mean, my obsession with faces and eyes was like, you know, it's an overdrive overdone with this glove puppet. And I was like, that is amazing. Here, have this. And Appa now still lives in Sabine's house and is still very much loved by both her children because she has two now. So, yeah, I enjoy other people's children, but I'm not sure that that's going to be part of my life. But who knows? You never know what happens in life. So.
- [74:11]
B
Yeah. Well, that brings us finally onto the future, then, the future of home for Bethann. Do you think you'll be here forever, or if I asked you to sort of draw a picture of where you might be in later life, what might that look like?
- [74:27]
A
I mean, I'd love to be able to maybe have something like Martino Gamper and his partner Francis Hugh Pritchard, where they have their space here, but they also have a space that they go to because Francis is from New Zealand, so they go there for some of the year. So I'd love to be able to kind of be based here, but maybe also have another space in another place. I have a big love for Mexico City, and Fernando La Pose and Fabian Capello, who I spoke about earlier, they good friends of mine that both live in Mexico City, and it has a great vibrancy. A dream would be maybe to have another space in another place that I could go to, obviously with Wilma, of course, ideally. And I mean, if I could just kick out a couple of neighbors in either direction or below, maybe I'd just take over more in this building. I do have a love for this building. It's exactly. We are as one. But we'll see. I mean, it would also. I think it would. I'd also be interested to see what would happen if I was to move to a different. A different space with a different energy or aesthetic and what that might bring out in, like, the things that I collect or whether I would choose to change my objects. But, yeah, for now, I do love this space building, even though it's a complex building and. And. And things But I really, I love living in East London and there's a really great community of people around here, both creatively and also just the different people that I speak to when I walk or that own different shops around the place. So, yeah, I really. I do like this area of London. I think when you move to London, you do end up kind of is quite tribal in its locations. So I feel like I haven't really lived outside of East London, but I also feel like I would be disowning my lover of East London if I did a flirtation with Nickham or another area. But yeah, I think I'm quite a city person. I think when I was young, I used to think that I'd either go and live in the middle of nowhere in the country and grow veg and be kind of bohemian this way, or I'd be like Sally Bowles in, you know, in Berlin and be in a city and have great nail polish. So I'm going for the more Sally Bolds, but hopefully without the war pending, we'll see what happens. But yeah, I went for that vibe.
- [76:56]
B
So do you get enough greenery and nature in your life then? Do you feel.
- [77:01]
A
I mean, I think London's a super green city compared to. I think it's all about context. Cause I think when sometimes until you experience traveling or going, you know, I've been very fortunate that I've been allowed to travel with my work. And my work has taken me to many different cities and countries. But I think it's only through doing that that I've been able to understand a bit more the nuance of the difference between what's here versus other cities. And I think London is a very green city. East London for sure. It's like you literally walk five minutes in any direction and you hit kind of a bit of green land or some communal land or this kind of thing. From here we have the marshes not far, which is a really big kind of area of green that's kind of playing parks, but also more wild areas and the canal. And I love that when you walk in different areas, you kind of come across different pockets. I don't feel like I'm in such an urban area that I desire greenery. I think the reality is I'm also not that kind of per. I'm not sure I'm that person when I was a younger self thinking I'd either do this or do that. I think I've. Yeah, the. The romanticism around, like being in. In the countryside. I like cities. I think I Like the layering of cities. But I think it would be different if I was living in a city that was much more urban. I think then I probably would really pine or really enjoy or really understand this desire to go up to the mountains or up to the. To the. The sea or wherever. I joke with friends that, you know, I'll walk for hours in a city or I'll walk for hours up a mountain. If you're telling me there's a flea market at some point at the end on the other side of the hill. I just like walking cities, I think. But we'll see. Wilma likes to walk in like green areas. So then I have been known to do more like greenery walks.
- [79:02]
B
But it sounds like you're a pretty urban person. I mean, if you had the London and Mexico city axis, that's pretty darned urban, isn't it?
- [79:10]
A
Yeah, I think my default is more urban.
- [79:15]
B
So in this urban future of yours, then do you see yourself doing that alone or do you see yourself with someone else on that journey?
- [79:27]
A
Who knows? I mean, hopefully I will have friends around me. I mean, I really enjoy company of people.
- [79:33]
B
Yeah.
- [79:34]
A
Whether that they're a romantic partner is a different thing or it's not. Not been the case for me for. For a while. I do have like a community of friends that I. I want to be close with or have around in my life. So maybe I'll be traveling the city with these people than necessarily one singular person. But we'll see. You never know. Things can happen, things can change, or you can meet people.
- [80:03]
B
So we'll see. Is there anything that's been a really important thing in your life or an important aspect of your life that you don't think we've talked about?
- [80:11]
A
I'm just Rolodexing in my brain. I mean, we've talked about my parents and the importance of them and I owe everything to them if they're listening to this podcast, which they do.
- [80:23]
B
So well done. That's good.
- [80:25]
A
Yes. Take that Team Mum and dad. Yeah, I think so. My brain has gone to slight toffee for I can talk forever. So probably that's telling me that's why.
- [80:34]
B
You'Re good on the podcast.
- [80:35]
A
Talk too much. But yeah, I think we've covered most things. I don't know. Is there. Is there something that you feel like you haven't.
- [80:41]
B
No.
- [80:42]
A
Got the bones?
- [80:43]
B
No, there isn't. I just want to make sure that you feel it's a good reflection of you. You know, I would class myself as someone that probably Likes inherently, like, because I grew up an architect for a father as well, and he was definitely a minimalist. Right. So I grew up in spaces that were comparatively spare.
- [81:03]
A
Yeah.
- [81:04]
B
And I think, therefore, I've inherited some of that.
- [81:08]
A
Yeah.
- [81:09]
B
Now I live with Faye, who loves things. And so I think we found a joyful medium somewhere. But I have to say, being in here, I don't find it noisy, to use your word, which I find really interesting. And I think that's just a testament to the way that you've put it all together. I suppose it makes me think, how do you decide the relationship between different things and what goes where and how it all slots together. You described taking a piece out to go to the design museum, and then there's a big whole. You know, everything in here seems. Does feel like it has its place, and it doesn't therefore feel overwhelming. What is that?
- [81:51]
A
I don't know. 100%. I'm very happy that that's the feeling people get from. I think it's weird because I didn't. Now I've kind of not opened the floodgates, but I've done. I've allowed a few more things into the. Into my home because I had that window. Well, we all had that window of being at home for quite a long time during COVID and I. I maybe was able to do stuff to make it into a place where I was ready to share it. And then also now everybody wants to have, like, you need to make videos and films of stuff everywhere. So there's this separation between private and personal space, and public space is a lot less. But I think it was only when people started to come here and I needed to, like, show off or justify my stuff that I was like, oh, there is much more of a synergy of colors or types of colors that I. Maybe I. I don't. I like. For example, there's quite. Well, now it feels there's actually not as much brown in this room as normal because normally there's the big particle cabinet on the wall facing me, which is quite. Even though it's a market. So it's got a lot of, like, pattern within it, but it's more brown on brown, you know, but there's normally a lot more brown in here than necessarily people would associate with my work. And I hadn't quite appreciated that until people were coming to film or photograph my home. And I was like, oh, yeah, there is a particular domestic aesthetic or coloring that I'm doing here that I hadn't really observed. And then I Don't know if it's then the danger thing that then when you're made aware of it, you then either question it or you're like, I think I was finding. Subconsciously finding things. And. And they came together well because subconsciously I was always kind of pulling these colors. But it's that danger when you get told that, oh, you're picking up this type of thing. That you're suddenly like. You become more or less conscious when you. Am I picking up the right thing for the house or is it. You know what I mean? I think in this room there's certain key things that I've. I've leant into to find. I quite like. When I find something else from my psychedelic night, which is this found painting I have on the wall. I feel like I subconsciously and now more actively have been finding things that are part of his universe. So I have this wonderful mask by Bergen Pott, which for me is like the face of the guy on the back of the horse. If he was to turn around, that would be his face. I really feel that those two were separated at birth. And that's. Or decapitated at some point on his trip. And then there's other things where I'm like, oh, yeah, this really is part of this knight's universe. So I've kind of enjoyed kind of curating or finding objects that feel like they belong to him.
- [84:47]
B
That's so interesting. So I've not heard that before. I'd love to just pick up on that because I understand entirely the relationship between two things visually. Yeah, that makes total sense to me. But I'm not sure that I've ever heard someone put it like that. Which is that they relate to each other from a narrative perspective. And that one, they could have been separated at birth as things. Cause they're part of the same story that you've invented for them.
- [85:13]
A
Yeah, I don't think it was. It was almost like a throwaway joke type thing. When someone was asking about some of the objects where I suddenly was looking like, ah. Actually that really. Then I quite enjoy. I was like, actually, I quite like that. So then, for example, Libby Sellers, who's a wonderful curator who I've been working with for the traveling blue stocking projects. She gave me this wonderful brooch by Palazzi Palazzo. I always. I'm so bad at pronouncing it Eduardo.
- [85:43]
B
Paolozzi.
- [85:43]
A
Paolozzi. Thank you. I get stuck on the. The visual and then I get so confused knowing that one of the sounds is right and one is Wrong. But I can never then reassociate the right sound with the text.
- [85:57]
B
So that's your dyslexia, right?
- [85:59]
A
Most likely, yeah. Or my excuse, whatever. I think. No, most likely that's my dis. Very, like, visually, phonetically, I'll get. I, like, get very stuck with. Somehow I get. I can't. I don't know what I see, but it feels like a visual block where I stumble on the right pronunciation. Because the visual I have connected with it is. There's like a disconnect or there's a fork where I know there's a visual that it should connect with the sound, but for me, it doesn't. And then I get confused on the right sound. Anyway, diversion. But there's this beautiful brooch. She gave me that again. I put it up there as his little mask of honor, like his little shield of honor on the corner of the painting. Because I was like, ah, it's not my brooch, it's his.
- [86:41]
B
So you've hung it on the. On the corner of the picture of the knight on the horse.
- [86:45]
A
Yeah. And I quite like, for example, this success totem was in the other room. And when I moved stuff around, I put it here. And then I really like that. Feels like actually it's one of his objects, so it should have been here. So I quite. I've quite enjoyed. I suppose that's this kind of little fantasy universe that I can, like, relax into when I'm playing around with. Placing my objects. That. Or being here alone with just me and Wilmer. You know, take your pick over why that narrative universe has come about. But there it is.
- [87:17]
B
So interesting. As I say, we. I think we could do another three podcasts just about the individual things in the flat. So I'm going to leave it there because I. I'm just a huge admirer of you and what you do in your work. And I think that the world's a pretty gray place a lot of the time, so I really admire your sense of life vivacity. And this flat is just one of the best places I've been. So thank you so much for having us.
- [87:41]
A
Oh, thank you very much for coming. It's suddenly. It's now turned into a gray, wet day, but hopefully in this room, at least, it will still brighten here. Bright. Yeah, exactly. It's actively bright Outside, not so much.
- [87:54]
B
Thanks so much.
- [87:55]
A
Thank you.
- [87:59]
B
Thank you very much to Bethann for hosting us so generously, and thanks to all of you for being here as well. As you may have noticed, we're currently releasing episodes in a slightly chaotic fashion, to put it politely. So if you're not already subscribed to this podcast, don't forget to tap the follow button and you'll get an alert when the next one comes out. You can follow the Modern House on Instagram, hemodernhouse and my personal account, matgibbot. This episode was produced by Laconic Collective with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again for being here and talk to you on the next one. Bye for now.