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- [00:03]
Elizabeth Day
The older I got still in childhood, the less true I became to myself. So I feel like aged four I really knew myself and life after that was a gradual erosion of that certainty. So much outside our front doors is chaotic and unpredictable and noisy. I really need a space, space where I feel that I can take off that cloak of the outside world and just be at peace in an environment. Failure is essentially what happens when your life doesn't go according to plan. So then you have to think about where you got the plan from and whether it was actually yours.
- [00:53]
Matt Gibbard
Hello and welcome to Homing. I'm Matt Gibbard. My guest today is the wonderful Elizabeth Day. Elizabeth is the author of 10 books and has a very successful podcast called how to Fail. As a Cambridge graduate and natural high achiever, she grew up with the idea that if you worked hard enough, things would naturally fall into place. But that isn't quite how it always turned out for her. She tells me about the breakdown of her first marriage and and a frankly harrowing 12 year fertility journey that has shaped much of her adulthood. For someone who's used to striving, learning to live with what she calls failure has been one of her most defining lessons. Elizabeth has the words only connect tattooed on her wrist. It's very clear that connecting with others on a deep emotional level is really important to her. An act of healing for someone whose identity hasn't always felt defined. At the centre of everything is Elizabeth's need to feel safe. Her relationship with the home has underlined this quest from growing up in Northern Ireland where she had dreams about terrorists under the bed, to a first marital home that she fled one day, leaving all her possessions behind in the process. Her current home feels like the closing of that circle. It's a genuine refuge and a space that reflects the safety she now feels with her husband, Justin. I really enjoyed meeting Elizabeth. She's very thoughtful and warm and I must say I identified a lot with her love of words and her instinct for the truth. She also showed me around her beautiful house and you can watch that video tour over@patreon.com homingwithmat so here's our conversation and I really hope you enjoy it.
- [02:45]
Hi, Elizabeth.
- [02:46]
Elizabeth Day
Hi, Matt.
- [02:47]
Matt Gibbard
If I ask you to picture the home that you grew up in.
- [02:51]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [02:51]
Matt Gibbard
Or spent the most time in when you were young, what do you see?
- [02:56]
Elizabeth Day
Well, most of my vivid memories date from when I was 4. And it actually wasn't the home that I then did most of my growing up in, but the home that I remember so well is in Epsom. And I remember it being a massive house, but of course, it's just because I was very small. And I remember that house having a feeling of elegance about it. And I particularly loved the bay window. There was a seat, a window seat in the bay window where my mother taught me to read and write. And so we spent very many sort of happy homes, half hours there. And I also remember this attic space where I would get up before anyone else, because I'm the youngest, and I would go and spend hours just building Lego in the attic and feel so at peace and happy and then go down for breakfast. And it was right next to the South Downs and where they ran the Derby each year. And I remember my parents having Derby Day parties. But that same year, when I turned four, we moved to the north of Ireland, and we moved to a home constructed out of two former fishing cottages that had been knocked together about 30 minutes from the city of Derry and near the village of Claudy, opposite a river. And that's where I spent the next 20 years of my life, really. So I've got more coherent memories of that space.
- [04:31]
Matt Gibbard
Okay, so let's talk about the one in Ireland, then. What did that smell like, feel like, sound like?
- [04:39]
Elizabeth Day
Gosh, smell. It's so evocative and it's so difficult to describe because it smelt quite. But I don't mean this in a bad way. Quite cold and damp.
- [04:49]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [04:50]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. But, you know that smell that you sometimes get in a forest, like, it's actually. There's something quite sort of comforting and welcoming about it as well. It smelt like that. And it was partly because it was Ireland and it was cold and it rained 98% of the time, but also because my parents are of a generation where they refuse to put on the central heating unless absolutely necessary, unless the cold water was freezing as it came out of the tap, more or less. So it obviously felt like home. But it was quite an eccentric house. It was a sort of ragtag bag of other people's tastes. And I remember there was a swathe of virulent red and gold carpet, which makes it sound incredibly grand, and it wasn't. But it was a carpet of a certain era, probably dated from the sort of 70s. And it carpeted the hallway and the stairs, and it always covered such a large surface area that it was too expensive for my parents to replace. So we lived with that carpet. And I never saw it anywhere else other than when I went to the cinema to see Casper the Friendly Ghost, that movie, and Casper Lives in this sort of haunted mansion. And they had the same carpet, except designer had to use the same carpet. But we were talking earlier about my love of history, and there was real history to that place. There was an attic, which I found so triggering for flights of fancy and imagination. And I knew that I wanted to write from a very young age. And I would go to the attic and I made an old sort of tea chest into my desk and I would write there and invent stories. And I could sort of see the architecture of how the two fishing cottages had been put together. So where the original staircase was, there was now a sort of deep bookshelf. And I loved all of that kind of storytelling that I could fathom from the bones of the house. And then we had this, what we called the rath in our back garden, which was this mound that dated from Norman times. There was still sort of old castle stones on bits of it. And being able to run around there and, like, camp in my own garden and have adventures was incredibly exciting for me.
- [07:12]
Matt Gibbard
That sounds quite magical. So would you say it had a positive emotional atmosphere about it?
- [07:19]
Elizabeth Day
That's a difficult question to answer because of the context of the time and the place. So we moved to the north of Ireland in 1982, and 30 minutes down the road in Derry, which was where I went to primary school, a war was raging. And I was very quickly and then consistently aware of. Of tension, political tension and historic tension and stories that weren't being told, things that weren't talked about, and a sort of thrumming sense of danger.
- [07:59]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [08:00]
Elizabeth Day
And so there was always that, like, I remember very early on, that childlike fear of having monsters under your bed. But they weren't monsters for me. They were terrorists. They were balaclava terrorists. That's what I was scared of. And it was a real fear. It was grounded in reality. But within all of that, because we lived in the countryside, it also felt removed. And I could quite happily go off on my bicycle on my own from a very young age and just spend hours in relative safety. So it was a combination of things, I think.
- [08:38]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, that's really interesting. It was a. It was a very highly charged time, wasn't it, that? I remember being in our sitting room at home and the windows shaking as a bomb went off in central London.
- [08:51]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [08:52]
Matt Gibbard
And I can only imagine what that would have been like in Northern Ireland. But.
- [08:56]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. Well, you've had a similar experience to me then, because when I. I went to secondary school in Belfast and I remember a bomb going off and the window shaking, really. And then the next day, walking to the bus station to get the bus home, and walking past mangled pieces of metal that had been cars, and walking past the Europa Hotel, which bore the infamous distinction of being the most bombed hotel in Europe, and every single panel of glass being shattered, and those kind of memories and, you know, shopping centers being evacuated because of a bomb scare, going past military checkpoints on our way to school, that was all part and parcel of our normality. And as a child, of course, you're not in control of your life. And so then to have this added element of there being a lack of control beyond that could feel quite unsafe. And at the same time, my parents did an amazing job of shielding us from that in many ways and ensuring that we. We did have those adventures still. And my father is a great outdoors person and was constantly sort of marching up the Mourn Mountains with us with sort of soggy chicken sandwiches as a picnic. And so I actually consider myself a countryside person. That's where I grew up, even though I've ended up feeling most at home in London.
- [10:25]
Matt Gibbard
Well, I did the family uproot and moved to Ireland.
- [10:28]
Elizabeth Day
So my grandmother, whose painting hangs in our bedroom, which I just showed you, she was born in Belfast, so that side of the family originally Ashkenazi Jews from Germany, and they had moved. My branch had moved to Northern Ireland in the late 19th century. So my grandmother was born there, but came to art college in London and then ended up living in Cambridgeshire. So there was a slight family connection. My dad, he's retired now, but he was a doctor and he applied for jobs all over the UK and he got a promotion, effectively to be a general surgeon. And it just so happened that it was in Atna Galvan Hospital in Derry, and we moved out. And I think my father, you know, part of what makes him so unique and special is that he has a great capacity for imagination. And I think he imagined a sort of idyllic rural life, some of which was available to us. That's why one of the first things we did was go buy a donkey in a cart. And there is a picture of me and my older sister Catherine in the back of this cart just after we bought it, and with my father in front wearing a sort of deerstalker hat. And my sister and I are in 80s anorax, but it does look like something from Victorian times, that photo now.
- [11:52]
Matt Gibbard
Oh, wow.
- [11:53]
Elizabeth Day
So it was this curious mix of the desire to pursue a rural idyll in beautiful countryside and then the awareness that There was this political danger.
- [12:08]
Matt Gibbard
So are you the younger of two girls, then?
- [12:11]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [12:11]
Matt Gibbard
Okay, so tell me about the family dynamic as a whole. What was that like at home?
- [12:17]
Elizabeth Day
My sister was incredibly protective of me and an amazing older sister who had demanded from my parents that she wanted a younger sister. And then I appear. Um, and my parents, you know, my father worked a lot and was constantly on call and had a lot of very confronting experiences as a surgeon in Ireland at that time. You know, he dealt with a lot of kneecappings and post bomb injuries to such an extent that he became something of an expert in wall surgery and later on joined Medecin Sans Frontiere and went to places like Sierra Le and the Balkans, and then subsequently joined the RAF as a surgeon. So he went that way about it. A lot of people assumed we were a military family at that time in Ireland because of our accents, but we weren't. And my mother was an amazing mother in so many ways and had given up her work to raise me and my sister. And then the older we got, the more she started doing bits and pieces here and there. So she taught French for a while at my primary school, and then she later became a university lecturer at the University of Ulster and a local magistrate, and then worked on the board at McGilligan Prison to improve life for prisoners. So both my parents have a strong moral compass and they also are voracious readers. And so I grew up in a house surrounded by books and people who thought it was important to read them. And that's one of my big privileges in life. And they never made me feel stupid or silly for wanting to write myself. They took me seriously, and I think that's one of the most generous things you can do with a child.
- [14:09]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [14:10]
Elizabeth Day
So I felt very safe in that, in being able to explore something that I loved. I was very supportive in that respect.
- [14:18]
Matt Gibbard
So you used the word privileges there. When you moved to Northern Ireland, did you also move into a. An unfamiliar place in terms of just the dynamics of it? Did you feel like a bit of an outsider? I mean, what was that like for you?
- [14:33]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, hugely. But I didn't realize that's how I felt until a bit later on, because I was still only four when we moved. But we did move away from everything that I knew at the time, which was Epsom and my lovely grandparents who lived in Putney, and seeing them a lot. And then we didn't anymore really very much. And, you know, it was still the early 80s, so there was no Internet, there weren't mobile phones. So Communication was slightly more difficult, but I didn't question it, because you don't at that age. And it was only really when I went to secondary school in Belfast that I understood the depth of my difference. I actually had a lovely primary school experience. It was a very small school. There were six people in my year, great teachers, and it was an amazing grounding for life. But Belfast was tougher, and it was a tougher school and a tougher dynamic, and I was made aware of what a freak I was for speaking like this. But I was also a year ahead of myself academically, which doesn't go down that well at that age. And because I'd grown up in the countryside with a vanishingly little sense of what was cool, I was a total nerd and people didn't know how to categorize me, and that was much more difficult. And to cut a long story short, I didn't have a particularly good time at that school, even though it's a great school and lots of people I know and like went there. I ended up getting a scholarship to a boarding school in England when I was 13. And that school in Malvern, in Worcestershire, was the saving of me in many ways. But when I started there, I felt like an outsider in a different way, because although I spoke in the right way and was kind of immediately accepted for that reason, I hadn't grown up in that environment and I didn't know any of the unspoken rules or sort of social etiquette. So there was a lot of code switching in my childhood, which now I'm really grateful for, because I think it's made me into an observer and made me into a writer and made me someone who. I think I have an ability to connect with people, and it probably dates from that.
- [16:51]
Matt Gibbard
That's really interesting. Would you use the word outsider as a youngster, or is that too strong a word?
- [16:59]
Elizabeth Day
No, that's such a good question. I would never have used that word. And actually I still feel reticent using it now, in the sense that I am extremely privileged and I am white and upper middle class and live in this lovely house and make my living from tapping away a laptop, which is not a privilege afforded to so much of the global population. But it is an experience that I find fascinating and inspiring in many ways, and it's really informed my writing. It's only when I've written novels and other people read them that I understand what I've written about thematically. And one of the themes that comes up again and again is people who don't fit in in some way. And unreliable narrators of their own lives and their own selves and someone who's had that experience of outsidership, I find so interesting and compelling.
- [17:56]
Matt Gibbard
You've obviously got a wildly successful podcast about failure. What was your failure as a. As a child, would you say?
- [18:05]
Elizabeth Day
So the older I got still in childhood, the less true I became to myself. So I feel like aged four, I really knew myself. And that's a beautiful thing. And I don't know if lots of people feel it, but I definitely did feel it. And I felt kind of at peace with who I was. And life after that was a gradual erosion of that certainty, for good and for bad. But I think a large part of that came from not feeling accepted by the people that I was in friendship groups with or the sort of broader environment. And so then I tried to shape shift in order to fit in. So I think that's my failure. And my life in more recent years has been a dismantling of that and a recovery of who I was at 4.
- [19:09]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [19:10]
Elizabeth Day
And that's been a really healing and great process.
- [19:14]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, that's. That's really interesting, isn't it? Trying to get back to the very essence of yourself somehow.
- [19:21]
Elizabeth Day
Definitely. And I think home is an incredibly precious space in order to facilitate that happening. That can't happen unless you feel safe where you live. And I feel safe not only where I live physically, but where I live personally. In terms of my romantic relationship now, I understand that love actually starts with safety, which I had never really understood before. And so then when you feel safe with your key relationships, you can start to be brave enough to look at the truth of who you are. And it turns out that actually I like the truth of who I am. And that all this bit in the middle where I was trying to be something slightly different was never fulfilling. It didn't feel. I was never settled. I think that's the thing. I never felt that I was living in alignment with myself.
- [20:19]
Matt Gibbard
You've said, haven't you, that you're an introvert that's learned how to be an extrovert. Yeah. Is that fair? So talk to me about that. How did that manifest itself when you were young then, that introversion?
- [20:31]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. I'm sort of annoyed now because so many people claim to be introverts, I feel like. But yes, I do. I do genuinely feel that. And as a child, I would spend hours reading books or inventing stories or coming up with games that I would like, make out of cereal boxes. And I just had A very rich in a life. And that's probably also a function of having been born in 1978 and growing up in the 80s, where there weren't so many available sources of entertainment for children and you had to make your own fun. And boredom, in a way, is like a great diving board for creativity. And again, that countryside, I would just. I would make myself dens in overgrown rhododendron bushes, all of that sort of stuff. So it manifested like that. And I think. I don't know how chatty I was. I don't know, I'd have to ask my parents.
- [21:30]
Matt Gibbard
The irony.
- [21:31]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah, I know the irony. That's what I mean about having learned. But I liked observing. And I always remember my beloved grandparents who were just amazing. They were amazing grandparents and they were my mother's parents. And I remember my grandmother, I had seen that she needed something, like she needed a cup pasta or something. And she said to me, she actually said to my mother about me, she's so great at anticipating someone's needs. And it really meant a lot to me for some reason, but just. I think it meant a lot to me because I like being able to understand what someone might want or need without them having to say it. And that, for me is part of the art of connection. So I suppose I was quite a sort of watchful child, But I loved stories and escaping into stories. And at that time it wasn't a particularly friendly climate for introverts. And because I love writing, like, I always wanted to write books, but I thought, oh, I probably need to learn how to write first. I'll become a journalist first. So I found myself with a first job in journalism post university on the Londoner's Diary on the Evening Standard, which was such a baptism of fire for a slightly socially awkward, still introvert, because I was sent to glamorous parties every night of the week and I had to come up with a tidbit of gossip and roll up to celebrities and ask them questions. And it was a great learning curve for me because I had to pretend to be confident. And I still have that ability to project confidence, even if I don't feel it.
- [23:14]
Matt Gibbard
Well, let's talk about that then. Because the way that you got the job at the Evening Standard I thought was quite funny. Tell us about that.
- [23:20]
Elizabeth Day
So I was at university and my friend wanted to go to a recruitment evening, and it was a recruitment evening for sort of publishing and the arts, and I sort of went reluctantly along with her. And there was a guy on his own at a Stall at the. At the very entrance of this room. And he was from the Evening Standard. And I was like, oh, I want to be a journalist. So we got chatting and he was actually the deputy editor of the Londoner's Diary. He was like, well, why don't you come in for a week's work experience? I went in for a week's work experience, and it was the sort of tail end of the glory days of Fleet Street. You could still smoke in the office.
- [23:57]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:57]
Elizabeth Day
And the then editor of the Evening Sound of Max Hastings, used to leave on, like, Friday afternoons to go for shooting weekends in the country. It was hilarious. And I brought in a story that turned out to be a front page scoop. And it was about female members of the military getting boob jobs funded by the taxpayer on the Ministry of Defense. And it stood up and it was a really good story. And Max Hastings summoned me into his office and said, well, listen, we'd like to offer you a job and come back after you've graduated and we'll train you up over the course of a year and we'll move you from the Londoner's Diary to the new news department, et cetera, et cetera. And so I was lucky that I graduated with a job to go to. And I started on the London's Diary thinking, oh, you know, in three months I'll be rotated and go somewhere else. Max Hastings then left as editor and was replaced by someone who didn't ever move me. So I stayed on the London Diary for a year, and that's how I got that job.
- [24:59]
Matt Gibbard
Love it. And you worked at the observer as well, didn't in other places? I mean, what. What would you have said that success would have looked like to you at that point?
- [25:09]
Elizabeth Day
At that point, I was still very unimaginative in terms of how I thought of success. So it would have been winning a British Press Award. Having my name on the front page meant a lot to me. There is something really thrilling about that. And that's what it would have meant. It would have meant becoming someone like Lynn Barber, one of my journalistic heroes, an incredible interviewer on the observer, who worked there when I did. And personally, I thought success was getting married by a certain age, having children, and living an extremely conventional, heteronormative life. And now, of course, I don't think any of that. But at the time, I was definitely. That's what I felt.
- [25:58]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [25:59]
Elizabeth Day
I actually. Sorry. Just to finesse that slightly, I think the respect of others was a big part of my success. So which is a good thing. But it also can sometimes veer perilously close to people pleasing and seeking validation and approval from people you've never met who you can't possibly control their opinion. So I think there was that element of it as well.
- [26:25]
Matt Gibbard
Am I right in saying that you first had some therapy in your 20s? Yeah, yeah. What would you say was happening there then?
- [26:33]
Elizabeth Day
I love the depth of your research. Thank you.
- [26:35]
Matt Gibbard
Sorry.
- [26:35]
Elizabeth Day
No, no, no. I feel so known. It's such an act of kindness. So I was 27 when I first went into therapy, which I think is a key age for many of our Saturn returns and all that. And I had a job. It was before the Observer. I had a job at another national Sunday newspaper, the Sunday Telegr. It was just a very destabilising time for newspapers and various new editors had come in and changed everything. And it was just quite stressful because I felt that I continually had to build up my reputation again with each new editor. And I was in a long term romantic relationship, but I think I felt worried that I was falling behind in some way. And I remember crying every morning before I went to work. And then I thought, hmm, this can't be right. A friend of mine had just started seeing a therapist and so I asked her what it was like. She was like, it's great, here's the number. And I did 12 weeks of CBT with a terrific therapist and then I was like, great, I'm cured. I now am really enlightened and I can go on with the rest of my life.
- [27:47]
Matt Gibbard
That's that done.
- [27:48]
Elizabeth Day
And make all the right decisions. Exactly. Spoiler alert. It didn't quite turn out like that, but it did introduce me to the value of therapy and to be able to talk to someone who is objective, who isn't a friend or a loved one, who you don't feel like you're wasting their time or you're being self indulgent by talking things through with them and sense checking where your head's at. It's been a great resource in my life. Therapy.
- [28:18]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Well, let's move on then to your term, not mine. Failures of adulthood.
- [28:25]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [28:26]
Matt Gibbard
Of which you've been very candid about. I mean, starting with your, I think your. Is your divorce, maybe of your first marriage, something you've spoken about a lot. Tell us about that.
- [28:36]
Elizabeth Day
So having done these 12 weeks of therapy, obviously equipped for everything.
- [28:40]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [28:41]
Elizabeth Day
I thought I knew myself and it was a shock to discover that I didn't and that the commitment I had made to My ex husband, which I fully meant at the time. Although if I'm truly honest, was there like a tiny patch of instinct that said, should it be this difficult? Maybe there was. But I went into that marriage fully believing, as I think most people do, this is going to last and this is it. And it wasn't. And so that's why it felt like a failure. It felt like a failure of self awareness. And as someone who values truth very highly, it felt also as though I'd been lying in some way or fraudulent in some way because I hadn't actually excavated who I was. And so I turned up a sort of imposter in my own life, which I didn't realize at the time, but now I, I have realized it and that relationship was dysfunctional for various reasons that I won't go into because it's not just my story to tell, it's also my ex's. So I can only speak about it from my perspective. But it felt like a failure as well because there was so much shame attached to it. I felt really embarrassed by myself, by the decision that I'd made, by what I'd asked of all of my loved ones to come to this wedding to give us presents and to believe in this relationship and then to have to say, actually, I don't think I can do it.
- [30:17]
Matt Gibbard
So how soon did you get divorced after marrying?
- [30:19]
Elizabeth Day
Three years.
- [30:20]
Matt Gibbard
Three years.
- [30:20]
Elizabeth Day
We'd been together for four up to that point. The thing that brought it to a head was my second failure, which was my attempt to have children. And that didn't happen and hasn't happened, but it was the first experience I had of fertility treatment and of miscarriage. And I felt very, very alone through that. And ideally you shouldn't feel alone if you're in a partnership at that point. And it was, it sort of made me understand things and see things clearly and I just kind of hit a wall at some point and knew my instinct took over. That four year old self took over and was like, oh no, this, you can't do this. And it's absolutely one of the hardest things I've ever done or gone through. And I left. And talking of home, I left that home and luckily looking back, we were renting, we'd only ever rented, but it was still home and I'd still gone to an enormous amount of effort to make it feel nice and look nice. And I left basically everything, anything that was jointly owned, I left behind because I just needed to go. And it was a great learning in terms of the value of stuff and how I was able to do that. As someone who had always thought that trinkets and physical memories were incredibly important, and possessions, I now realize they're not at all. And it's made me see that a lot more clearly. And for a year, I didn't have my own home. I stayed with generous friends, with my mother. I lived in LA in an Airbnb for three months. And there was a freedom to that as well as everything else that was happening, which was incredibly stressful. There was such freedom to it. And it was kind of amazing being in other people's spaces and seeing what that shifted internally and what new ideas I came up with in those spaces. So I'm grateful for that part of it, but it was very hard.
- [32:44]
Matt Gibbard
So you describe sort of leaving all of your possessions behind. Was it quite a sudden separation? Is that why. Why didn't you take the stuff with you?
- [32:54]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, saved by the bell. Literally.
- [32:56]
Matt Gibbard
Hang on, you've got a comedy doorbell.
- [32:58]
Elizabeth Day
Let me just. Let me just get this.
- [33:01]
Matt Gibbard
That's properly snowing now. Look at that.
- [33:03]
Elizabeth Day
No, it is. It was like. I think all relationship breakups end up feeling very sudden, even though they're not, because they'll always shock at least one party. And ultimately, I think I realized that the relationship itself had been in kind of slow motion destruction for many months. So in that respect, it wasn't sudden. But the decision to go had to be made quite suddenly. In a weird sort of way, I was like, if I don't do it now, I'm not going to do it. And so I had to kind of paint myself into a corner of doing it. And then I felt such an enormous sense of guilt at having been the one to do it that I think I was like, well, I don't deserve any of this. This is. And there was part of me that wanted a freshness, that wanted a fresh start and wanted a reinvention. So I think for those reasons, that's why I kind of left things, to make it easier.
- [34:13]
Matt Gibbard
But you're obviously a high achiever, right? You're a Cambridge University graduate. You know, everything you've done in your work life suggests that as well. So I'm just really interested that you've, you've, you've hit upon this theme of failure as a. As a strand through your life, because it. Would it be fair to say that because of who you are as an individual, these things have been harder than they otherwise might have been?
- [34:41]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, that's such a good question. I thought you were going to Go somewhere else with it. Which is like, would it be fair to say that you, as an individual don't really understand failure, which is something that I have had levelled at me?
- [34:51]
Matt Gibbard
Absolutely not. No, I think, you know, failure is something that we feel within ourselves. Right. That's a totally individual judgment.
- [34:59]
Elizabeth Day
Exactly.
- [35:00]
Matt Gibbard
No, I'm interested, you know, someone who isn't used to getting things wrong, let's put it like that.
- [35:06]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. Well, I think this will be familiar to many of your listeners and viewers, particularly if you're a woman of a certain age, in that I feel there was great pressure on us as young girls and women to be perfect and to get everything right and to be pleasant and kind and thoughtful and be wonderful domestic goddesses at the same time as ensuring that the fights our mothers, generations and grandmothers, generations had fought for us, ensuring that we had thriving careers and were able to do it all because we were so lucky to be born into this era. And we were, and we are. But there was an immense degree of pressure that I, and I know a lot of my contemporaries felt to get everything right, whether it was kind of romantic relationship or professional achievement. And if you layer on that someone who was fortunate enough to be good at exams and good academically and got a lot of praise for that, and probably I'm talking about myself here, but probably also conflated that praise with a sense of love or approval or safety, then that adds into the mix. Like you start to feel unsafe if you get something wrong or you fail an exam or you fail at a marriage. And all of that made me into a people pleaser of sort of nauseatingly extreme proportion. And that goes back to the idea of truth. Because actually, I wasn't being truthful about myself. I was trying to shapeshift to be whoever someone else wanted me to be, particularly in romantic relationships. I was like, the worst thing that could happen is that this person will leave me because then I'll feel abandoned and scared and unsafe. So I must ensure that I am sufficiently perfect that they never do. And all of that goes into feeling like a failure when you get divorced. But I think the other thing is, is that what is failure? Failure is essentially what happens when your life doesn't go according to plan. So then you have to think about where you got the plan from and whether it was actually yours or whether it was inherited from your family history or from social conditioning or from the fact that you watched too many rom coms in the 80s. Very often it's not what you really want. Deep down if you're being super truthful with yourself. And so I think that affects us all in varying degrees. And some of us, myself included, have privileges that act as safety nets, that when life doesn't go according to plan, we can put on a different lever and other people don't. And failure is much more crushing. And then you get yet more people who are constantly allowed fail upwards and end up as prime ministers of the country.
- [38:00]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, right.
- [38:01]
Elizabeth Day
And failure is such a rich and thrilling topic. And when I launched how to Fail, I had no idea how much it would teach me and how much it would radically redefine how I thought of failure. But it's important to say that at the time I launched it, which was July 2018, I really did feel like I'd failed in meaningful and difficult ways. I'd had the divorce, I failed to have the baby that I thought I longed for. A relationship that I got into after my divorce had also failed, and I was staring down the barrel of my 40s, feeling like I'd got nothing in place that I thought I wanted. And yet I was also writing pieces for a Sunday newspaper and seemed, if you looked at my professional cv, I seemed professionally successful. And so there was a sort of disconnect that there, too, between what I was projecting and how I actually felt. And I think that feels like failure, too.
- [38:56]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Are you happy to talk about the fertility?
- [39:00]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, definitely.
- [39:02]
Matt Gibbard
And you say definitely, why? Because you think it's helpful for others?
- [39:05]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [39:06]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [39:06]
Elizabeth Day
And it gives what I went through meaning to me. Yeah, it gives it a kind of purpose. That's how I'm able to be at peace with it, is talking about it, sharing it, advocating for people who have also experienced it. It's been a great healing gift. So that's why I'm really happy to talk about it.
- [39:31]
Matt Gibbard
Okay. I have a very small personal experience of this myself in that my wife Faye and I went through two rounds of ivf, and as a result, we have beautiful identical twin girls, which was an amazing outcome for us. But I know for many others, you don't get that outcome. And it's. I mean, it's a very harrowing process to go through. Anyway. Are you able just to sort of, you know, cast a bit of a light on some of the things you've been through and how difficult it's been because. Yeah, I can't imagine, really.
- [40:08]
Elizabeth Day
Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm so happy that you got your twin girls. And I'm also glad that I get to talk with Someone who knows. I also did two rounds of ivf, and that was enough for me. And so my fertility journey lasted 12 years on and off. And when I first started, I was in my first marriage, it was 2014, and I was given the very unhelpful diagnosis of unexpected explained infertility. And that's when they said I should do ivf. And I did two back to back. And it was. It was really difficult. And I. At that stage, hardly anyone spoke about. I don't know what your experience was, Matt, but I went to a bookshop and tried to find a book that would tell me what to expect through ivf, and there was nothing. There was just kind of mother and baby books. That was it. I thought it would be pills. That's how naive I was. And then the reality of it, as you will know, is daily injections, hormonal surges, invasive procedures. It's like having another job. And my experience as a woman going through that was I was consistently told that I was fading in some way. I was failing to respond to the drugs. My friend was told that she had an inhospitable womb. You're told that you have an incompetent cervix. Like, all of this language is. Is the vocabulary of failure. Like, there were embryos at the end that got transferred, but they didn't stick. And then at the end of that same year, I got pregnant naturally. And then I had what's called a missed miscarriage, which is where you see a heartbeat. We saw a heartbeat at eight weeks, and I miscarried at 12 weeks. And that was, I now realize, really traumatic. But I didn't realize that at the time. I was so numb to it all, partly because my marriage was about to end, but also because I'd had this year of being stuffed full of hormones. I'd sort of technically, by the end of that year, been pregnant three times. And then I got divorced and thought, okay, well, I've still got some time. It's my mid-30s. So I froze my eggs. And then I got into a new relationship with a younger man for two years who wasn't ready for commitment to that level. And so when that relationship ended, I really did feel okay. Now I need to face the fact that this is going to be a different future from what I imagined. And then I met wonderful Justin on Hinge, and he already has three children. And when we met, I thought I was at peace with not having a baby.
- [42:50]
Matt Gibbard
And.
- [42:50]
Elizabeth Day
But we got pregnant naturally just after I turned 41. And it seemed like such a miracle. And that very sadly ended in miscarriage. And then it made us realize how much we did actually want it. So we started pursuing fertility treatment, which involved various different clinics. And then I had another miscarriage during lockdown, which was the worst, because obviously the medical category of it meant that it wasn't by any means an emergency. And it was another one where we'd seen the heartbeat and then went back and the heartbeat had disappeared. And I was given pills to take here, actually back here. And that was an extraordinarily painful experience, physically and emotionally. And then we decided to stop for a bit because we just needed to recover, and it was still locked down. And so fertility treatment was incredibly difficult to pursue.
- [43:45]
Matt Gibbard
And.
- [43:45]
Elizabeth Day
And we got engaged, and we got married in that time. And then after that, we thought, okay, final fling of the dice, let's try egg donation. And we did that with a highly recommended clinic in la. And it was. I cannot tell you, Matt, what a stressful process it was. This is a whole other podcast, the Fertility Industrial Complex, particularly in America, it took us a year to find a donor. This wonderful, generous woman. That cycle went forward. We were lucky enough that we could pay for it, but that was a stretch. And we got to the stage where, after all of these years, it finally felt like everything was aligned. I did everything by the book, did the acupuncture, changed my diet, took all the supplements, and then that didn't work. And that's one of the darkest points of my life. And actually, interestingly, given the topic of this podcast, it coincided with not being at home, because I was in la, in such a depressing Airbnb in Venice, and it was torrential rain. It was so miserable. And there was something so devastating about not being able to be in my safe space in my home. It made it even worse. But during the process of that darkness and through many conversations with Justin, I decided to focus on the love that I did have in my life, which was, Justin, my amazing friends, my family, rather than the love that I lacked. And I decided to let go of the idea of having biological children. And I feel tremendously lucky that I have a community now of other people who have gone through or are going through fertility treatment. And I don't feel alone in it anymore. And that's something that talking about it gives me back.
- [45:42]
Matt Gibbard
I think it's amazing that you're so open about it, and I think it is genuinely helpful for other people. And, yeah, it sounds incredibly traumatic. How do you reflect on it now, then? I mean, you sound relatively sanguine about it. That might not be the right word, but do you think that you will ever fully come to terms with it?
- [46:08]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, I think I have come to terms with. Doesn't mean that I'm not sad about it. And I think understanding that those two things can coexist, the peace and the sadness, has been very helpful for me. And it's meant that I don't try and tamp down the sadness anymore. I don't try and live in denial of it and just being aware of when it happens and when it surges and acknowledging it is the healing. So there's this example I can give you, and it will sound quite trivial if you've never been through similar. But last weekend, Justin wanted to go to this Jurassic World experience, a Bassey power station down the road from us, which is lots of animatronic dinosaurs. And I think he thought it was going to be better than it actually was because it literally was just like big dinosaur puppets. And we were the only adults there without children. We were surrounded by excited young children. And I felt really flat during that and afterwards. And then I felt annoyed with myself. I was like, why am I feeling so flat? Why am I so moody? Why am I. And then I realized that's what it was. That's an experience that I have had so many times before. Being around people with children, partners with children, and not feeling part of it, and now acknowledging that I'll never have that. I try not to put myself in those situations when I don't have to. That's not to say that I don't love being around my friend's children. I really do. And actually that's become a lot easier since letting go of this dream. But it's just like things like that are oddly triggering.
- [47:52]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, I get that.
- [47:53]
Elizabeth Day
But just being aware of it and actually just saying it out loud to you is really helpful, and it means that I can release it.
- [48:01]
Matt Gibbard
I want to talk to you about this home, but just before we do, one of the other things we talked about on the tour earlier was this word connection. So you have a tattoo on your wrist, and that word connection is clearly very important to you. And that really is what a podcast conversation kind of is. Just talk to him about that. Why is that? In your individual life, why is that important?
- [48:26]
Elizabeth Day
I think it's the sense of being seen and understood. Because I had long periods of my life where I didn't feel seen or understood. And that can be incredibly isolating when you can't communicate the truth. Of yourself, to others, but also to yourself, that it feels so alienating. And alienation, I think, is where all of the darkness lies. And understanding that about myself means that I want to be able to do it for other people. I want to make other people feel seen and heard and understood in any moment that I have with them, because that's what humanity is. That's what it's about. So that's the deep answer. And the way that I do that is through podcasting, but also through writing and also through sort of daily micro acts of connection. Whether it's like looking someone in the eye when they're making you a cup of tea and saying thank you and asking how their day was, I think that genuinely has the power to change the world. Because ultimately what you're doing there, it's like every single moment. Moment is an act of empathy, and that's so important to lean into. But the podcasting aspect has been revelatory for me, and I never thought it was something that I would do, partly because podcasts didn't exist when I was growing up. But I think what's so precious about it, the way that I podcast and you podcast, is that one on one interaction, which, for an introvert, that's how I love social communication to be, is that I can hopefully get deep with someone and understand a little bit about who they are in those moments. That's why it's just such an amazing form, really.
- [50:30]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. So if I think about my own experience, one of the reasons that I enjoy connecting with an individual in this way, like we're doing now is, I think, because there was a trauma in my family when I, before I was born, that had ripples certainly through the next generation, and I think meant that actually as a family, we didn't communicate with each other very much. And I had a brother and quite a macho father. And it wasn't really that kind of environment, which it was also the late 70s, early 80s, and that's slightly the way things were. And I don't regret that at all. It was what it was. But I think it's made me have a thirst for conversations that go beneath the surface level. And so I try to, I suppose I try to have friendships that exist on that level, and I try to do that professionally as well. So that's kind of my justification for sitting here doing this kind of thing. But from your standpoint, why is it important to you to probe beneath that surface layer in that way?
- [51:46]
Elizabeth Day
That's so beautifully put, Matt. And I'm so sorry for the family trauma and the long tendrils of that. I think my answer is quite similar in a way, in that the experience of Northern Ireland of understanding that the stories we don't tell, we're too scared to tell, the voices that we don't hear from, that we don't raise, they shape who we are as much, if not more, than the things that we do say. So I'm very intrigued by absences. And also, if someone doesn't speak their truth, then other people are going to speak it for them. And so there's something about authenticity that's very important. And addressing the things that we'd rather live in denial of. Because if we continue to live in denial, we're not being shaped by ourselves. We're being shaped by other forces. And so I think that's what it is. It's about realness and understanding. Does that answer your question?
- [53:00]
Matt Gibbard
It does. Yeah, it does. Let's move on to this home, I think. Cause Oliver's gonna run out of time. But there's so many things to talk to you about. I kind of sit here all day.
- [53:10]
Elizabeth Day
Did.
- [53:11]
Matt Gibbard
So I think. I suppose one thing to come out of this, I think being here today, is that you are someone that really clearly likes things to have a place. Yes. And you talked about the way you sort of set the house and set the things on the shelves. So I guess the first question is around that. How does your home help you make sense of the world somehow? How does it give you that sense of control? Because I think that it is about control, isn't it? A little bit.
- [53:39]
Elizabeth Day
Is it about control? I mean, I always try and remind myself that control is an illusion. I think for me, it's about serenity. It's about feeling at peace when I walk through the door and feeling a sense of shelter. And for me, that is helped by the idea that things are going to be in the place that I left them, but also the way that I've placed them in order to be pleasing to the I and my sense of self. That's where it comes from. And I suppose there is an element of control to that as well. For sure, definitely. But it's so. So much outside our front doors is chaotic and unpredictable and noisy. And I really need a space where I feel that I can take off that cloak of the outside world and just be at peace in an environment. And I can feel that in lots of different places. It doesn't always have to be my home. My home is my favorite place. But I have Spent a lot of time traveling and being in Airbnbs and generally I get a sense of somewhere quite quickly. I'm quite good. My mother will say that it's one of my skills. I can always identify a nice place, an Airbnb or a hotel or. Or a place that I think someone should move into online, like I get. Especially with the modern house or Inigo. They could get a sense from photos. I'm quite good at that sort of stuff. And I can make. I think. I think I'm good at making spaces where it feels nice to inhabit.
- [55:25]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [55:26]
Elizabeth Day
And so the reason this particular space helps me make sense to the world is because I can free up my mind and my headspace to imagine and to create and to tell stories. Because my mind isn't being occupied by God, I need to move that pile of newspapers and I should throw that out. And also, what about this? And it's so noisy and loud. Like, that's what. That's how it helps me.
- [55:53]
Matt Gibbard
If you are enjoying this conversation with Elizabeth and want to go deeper, you can watch our house tour on Patreon. On a snowy day in London, she gave me a full tour of life behind the scenes at her amazing Victorian house, including the study where she writes and her remarkably serene bedroom. Head over to patreon.com homingwithmat to take a look.
- [56:18]
I see. So it's reducing the to do list in some ways so you can concentrate on the task at hand.
- [56:24]
Elizabeth Day
I think so. I've never actually thought about it this deeply before, but I think so. A bit like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs always had their uniform. I don't do that with clothes, but that. Actually. I wish I could. I wish I could be someone.
- [56:37]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Elizabeth Day
I bet your wife's an amazing dresser.
- [56:39]
Matt Gibbard
She is an amazing dresser, but. But, you know, but she has her own brand and she makes clothes and, you know, actually it's great for me in that I get to wear the clothes that she designs and makes. So actually, when you have that uniform, it does take. It's reducing the cognitive load, isn't it? That's what it's about.
- [56:57]
Elizabeth Day
Exactly. I haven't done that with clothes yet, but I aspire to.
- [57:01]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. So you've used the word safety a few times in this conversation. How does safety play into the role that the home plays, do you think?
- [57:12]
Elizabeth Day
Gosh, it's huge. You know, I've lived in environments where it's felt incredibly tense and, like, you have to tread on eggshells because you can't Disrupt the balance for fear of someone's anger or retribution. Like, I've lived in those spaces and it's awful and really sort of shatters your sense of yourself. Because if you can't be yourself in your own home, where can you be? Like, where do you find your escape and your refuge? And that can be a dangerous spiral for a lot of people. So it's really, really paramount for me. And it's a safety that comes from the relationships that exist within the home, who we invite in. Like, I'm actually very, very selective about whether anything is ever filmed at home or whether, like. Yeah, I know, you're very lucky. No, you're.
- [58:10]
Matt Gibbard
I mean, that's very kind of you to invite us in, then.
- [58:12]
Elizabeth Day
I'm deeply honored and I love the work that you do, but I don't tend to do that because I actually like it to be private. I've discovered that even though I'm an inveterate oversharer, there are some things I like to be private about. Like, gosh, what is this? Maturity?
- [58:30]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. Yeah. So are there parts of. Are there environments in the outside world that you feel unsafe in?
- [58:39]
Elizabeth Day
Hmm. I mean, I think any woman probably would say yes. And maybe it's not just a gender thing.
- [58:47]
Matt Gibbard
I mean, I guess. I mean. And I absolutely understand that statement. And I think, I mean, you know, maybe more on a psychological level. Maybe. Maybe like. Yes, let's think about the nervous system.
- [59:00]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. I don't like crowds.
- [59:02]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [59:03]
Elizabeth Day
And again, the introversion. Like, I don't get music festivals.
- [59:07]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [59:07]
Elizabeth Day
I. I hate. I can't. I just. I find that scary. I hate it. I hate being in a crowd where there's no control in it. That feels quite sort of dangerous.
- [59:16]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. No exit.
- [59:18]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. I don't get Glastonbury. I don't get why.
- [59:21]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [59:21]
Elizabeth Day
I just don't get it.
- [59:22]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [59:24]
Elizabeth Day
And then I'm trying to think of, like, I mean, miserable, broken parts of cities. I don't think anyone likes that, but I love cities. I love cities, actually. And I, you know, I've spent a lot of happy times in la, and I know that place is not for everyone, but it is for me. I feel a sort of spiritual kinship with la. And part of what I liked about it is that I went there post divorce for the first time properly, and it was a time when I often felt quite alone and I was like, where is my life going? Am I going to be single forever? Et cetera. But because it was la, there was always something to do or something to see or you could very easily go and be around people. And that's partly why I like writing in cafes, I think, for that reason. So I like cities. I like being able to have your own space in a city that you can venture out of and be around people. Having said that, I love cities. I've always struggled with New York. I find the energy chaotic and dark.
- [60:26]
Matt Gibbard
I do.
- [60:27]
Elizabeth Day
I feel like it's a panic attack in a city. And I've never understood it, but the last couple of times I've been there, I've been there for work with a purpose and it's been better. So maybe that's the thing. It's just that everyone else seems so busy and focused and so you need to go there with an intention.
- [60:45]
Matt Gibbard
I love that comment. A panic attack in a city, I think, to put some color on that. I mean, if you think about it, it's a network of. It's grids, isn't it?
- [60:54]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [60:55]
Matt Gibbard
And actually evolution suggests that we're attracted to landscapes that have a bit more visual intrigue than that. You know, you can't quite see round the hill or.
- [61:04]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [61:05]
Matt Gibbard
You know, there's a river winding through a valley.
- [61:07]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, that's such a good point.
- [61:09]
Matt Gibbard
So it is actually. It's kind of the definition of a breakdown, isn't it? And luckily they have Central park, which is. Which is like a huge lung where everyone in New York can go and just sort of recuperate somehow.
- [61:21]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. And all of those. These vast buildings that almost blot out the sun.
- [61:25]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, I do love it. I mean, it's amazing, energy wise. I. I absolutely love New York, I must say. But I wanted to pivot to this idea that within our homes we all have sort of regular routines and rhythms and rituals that we go through that somehow help us navigate our day. What do yours look like?
- [61:49]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, I'm a huge routine person, so I love sleep. So I'll sleep as late as I feasibly can given the demands of the work day, which is generally about 7:30. And then I wish I could say that I'm someone who meditates every morning, but I don't. I tend to exercise ideally when I wake up so that it's out of the way. And also because I've understood like how important it is for me as someone who spends so much time in her head, so crucial to be in my body for those moments. So that will either be. So we had a peloton or I'll go for a PT session or go to the gym or yoga. So those are my things.
- [62:31]
Matt Gibbard
Is that every day?
- [62:33]
Elizabeth Day
Most days, yeah. Not all three of them, yeah.
- [62:36]
Matt Gibbard
Sure, sure, sure.
- [62:38]
Elizabeth Day
And then having said that, I'm big into routine actually there's no such thing as a regular day, but if it's a Monday, then I go into the podcast studio which is in Holborn and I'll do sort of back to back recordings and then on other days generally I'll have meetings or I'll try and carve out some quiet space to write. And I like to go and write. Having said that, I love my home and it's a safe space. I actually like to go and write other places, in cafes or in transit, often on trains, things like that. And then in the evenings I have a rule that I don't go out on Mondays or Wednesdays and that's a post pandemic rule because whilst the pandemic was very challenging and deeply tragic for many people, one of the things that I did realize was that I liked being at home and I didn't have enough of that quality time.
- [63:34]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [63:35]
Elizabeth Day
And so Mondays and Wednesdays I don't go out and then the other nights I'll probably have a friend catch up or dinner out or a work event and then it all starts again. So yeah, actually I don't have a routine at all. We've established. Yeah, sorry. I read, I suppose I read in bath at night and before I go to bed. And I've started writing a diary. I've been writing a diary for a year.
- [63:58]
Matt Gibbard
Oh, have you? Why is that then?
- [64:01]
Elizabeth Day
Actually talking of New York, one of the last trips I was there, Justin was with me, we went to moma and I love a museum gift shop and there was just this very appealing, tactile little rectangular book and it had one line a day written on the COVID And that's the premise, is that you don't have to write a whole thing, just one line a day. The most memorable thing that's happened to you that day. And it's a sort of five year diary so you can compare each year. And I thought I'd start doing it. The idea of writing a full on diary has felt quite overwhelming because I write so much in my daily life, but one line a day, I kind of liked it. And I found that the rhythm and the routine of that is quite meditative because you contemplate the day that you've just had and what you're grateful for and that's a really nice way to end your day.
- [64:50]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. And are you still doing the therapy or.
- [64:53]
Elizabeth Day
Not anymore, yes. Sorry, that's the other thing. Major thing. Yes. I go to therapy every other week. Well, actually it's over Zoom, so I don't go anywhere. But she's wonderful. She's a Brazilian woman in her 70s and she's helped me so much. And I see it as an investment in my mental health, but also as necessary because a lot of what you and I do, we're talking to people about things that are pretty profound and sometimes they can be revealing and sad and traumatic. And I want to be able to be deeply present for those conversations and, and to go and deal with my own stuff somewhere else. And in a way, I see it as a kind of modern day confessional. It's like you're just. You're sorting through the feelings that you have and the thoughts, and I find it tremendously helpful.
- [65:49]
Matt Gibbard
Would you describe yourself as sensitive?
- [65:52]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [65:53]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [65:54]
Elizabeth Day
Very, very.
- [65:55]
Matt Gibbard
Okay. Yeah. Because I spoke to Nigel Slater on the podcast about this phenomenon of the highly sensitive person. Have you come across that? Yes, it's a psychologist called Elaine Aaron. And the basic idea of it is that about 15 to 20% of the population just have slightly heightened nervous systems and they go through life experiencing things. Just turned up a little bit more than maybe some other people do. And from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes a lot of sense because if you think about a proportion of a population looking out for danger or, I don't know, you know, looking out for food sources and so on, you need those sensitive people. So how does that sensitivity show up for you? And I suppose what happens when it becomes overly dominant? Like, what does kind of. What does Elizabeth going bad look like?
- [66:48]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [66:48]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [66:50]
Elizabeth Day
I love that phrase. First of all, I adore Nigel Slater.
- [66:54]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, don't we all?
- [66:56]
Elizabeth Day
I mean, I know that I. That everyone thinks this, but I just feel like I have a unique and special relationship with him. He's just amazing. And I love that he's been on this show of yours and because his house is so phenomenal, and it's like the ultimate aspiration. He's just such a kind cat like man. That's what I love about him. So I think, okay, I think I'm very sensitive to moods, opinions, changes in atmosphere, feelings, other people's moods I'm hypersensitive to. And that's been difficult in the past. And so there's an element where I've conditioned myself out of it. Like, it's not. I can choose not to be. I actually sat next to Elizabeth Gilbert Once at dinner. And she said something similar. She said, because so many people, a bit like Nigel Slater, feel that they have a unique relationship with Elizabeth Gilbert. And she's so transformative and such a wonderful human in so many ways. And when they come up to her at book signings or events, a lot of them will want to dump all of their stuff on her. And so she's developed this kind of mental cloak where she's present, but she puts a sort of energetic cloak around her. She's like, I don't need to take that on. And she writes herself. And so I suppose I can do a bit of that if I need to. And I'm also an optimist, which is something I'm very grateful for. So, as well as feeling sensitive, I also tend to believe that people are good and things will work out so I don't fall into a spiral of doom and anxiety, which is, thank God, because that's a really difficult thing to live with and to live alongside. So how it shows up when Elizabeth goes bad is that my overstimulation is when I've been around too many people and I've had to converse too much and to give of energy, but also to receive energy and whatever people are telling me. And it's a complicated one, because some moments that I feel like that it's because I've done stuff that I really love doing and I really believe in. So I will go on tour with how to Fail or with a book that I've written. And it's a beautiful experience every single time because of the audience that shows up and does me the honor of showing up and booking a babysitter or taking time off work and traveling and paying for that ticket and being there and then sharing their experiences in the audience Q and A or in the signing queue afterwards. It's so precious to me. And I'm also aware that after that I will need quiet time for a few days. Like, I need to book that into my diary. And Justin understands that about me as well now, because otherwise, the way it shows up in me is I get really weepy, overwhelmed, and I feel really, really down. So I don't get angry or anything like that. I sort of internalize it. And I can sometimes not remember why I'm feeling so overwhelmed. And then I will remember, or someone will tell me.
- [70:04]
Matt Gibbard
So how does it work between you and Justin in terms of your personalities and your sensitivities? Tell me about that dovetail.
- [70:10]
Elizabeth Day
It's actually great. So we both independently did Myers Briggs Tests and I am an infj. And his letters are the opposite of every single one of those letters. So I'm an introvert, he's an extrovert. Like, he gets his energy from being around people, managing people. He's a CEO, he's terrific at it. And I don't. I get my energy from being on my own and in peace and quiet. But actually we're very complementary because we bring those sides out of each other. So sometimes Justin will also need peace and quiet. And because he has me around lolling, lolling in bed for hours on a Saturday morning, I think I've helped him lean into that more. And ditto, he's helped me venture out more. And so actually we dovetail very well.
- [71:04]
Matt Gibbard
That's great, isn't it?
- [71:05]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. What a stroke of luck.
- [71:08]
Matt Gibbard
What a stroke of luck. Yeah. Do you think it's luck or were you open and receptive to that at that time?
- [71:13]
Elizabeth Day
I think it's both. I definitely think that we met at the right time because we were ready for each other and we'd done a lot of work on ourselves individually and we'd gone through a bit. And so we are, I think I can speak for him on this, incredibly grateful every single day that we have the relationship that we do and it means that we never take it for granted. And I think that's one of the perils of long term relationships, is that you can just sort of fall into grooves where you stop remembering for whatever reason that it's special or maybe it's not special and that's why you stop remembering it. But there's that element, like we had to have gone through what we'd gone through to be where we were when we met. And I was definitely much more open minded and receptive to meeting a different kind of person. And Justin was a different kind of person from anyone I'd been with before because he was so consistent and clear in showing up. To the extent that I found it a bit weird to begin with, I just wasn't used to it. I was like, why is he doing this? Why is he phoning me weird. I just want. I want text saying, let's run away to Rio and then I expect not to hear from you for six months.
- [72:30]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:31]
Elizabeth Day
And. But there was something that I was like, no, this is. There was something instinctively where I was like, this is really good for me. And the chemistry was great and we had great conversations and he asks questions and listens and that's such a rare and noble quality. So. But I. But I had to be ready for that.
- [72:49]
Matt Gibbard
That's really lovely. When I interviewed Sky McAlpine not long ago, she said that the experience of meeting her, the man that became her husband at university, she described it as a feeling of being at home, which I found really touching. But do you identify with that?
- [73:08]
Elizabeth Day
I find that incredibly moving because actually, that's something I said to myself for years. I want to find someone who feels like I'm finally home and where I imagined a sense of peace sleeping next to them at night. And yes, that's absolutely what I found with Justin, because I've understood, and it wasn't immediate at all. I didn't get that sense immediately, but I've understood that he accepts me fully as I am. He actually. He knows me so incredibly well and deeper at points than I knew myself. He would say things to me that were sort of quiet revelations in how I understood myself. And so to have someone like that who accepts you, flaws and all, and actually sometimes specifically for the flaws. And I remember in the early days of our relationship, I was crying about something comparatively insignificant, and I apologized to him. I was like, I'm sorry, it's ridiculous. I don't, you know, I don't want you to feel like I'm just emoting all the time. He said, no. I really value the fact that you are in touch with your emotions. I need that and I value it and I respect it. And that was amazing. So it's things like that that at home ultimately is a place of acceptance, where you feel welcome to walk across the threshold exactly as you are, and you can drop the performance and the pretense and the living on your wits and be at peace. And I think that's why home and what you do is so profoundly important, because it's not about a physical space. It's also about the countries that we are and whether we welcome people who need our shelter or not. It's about psychological safety. When you tell the truth about yourself and you know who you are. It's about all of those things.
- [75:13]
Matt Gibbard
When we were looking around the house earlier, you. You described your, you know, I always call, like, like a meet cute. You know, like then they have in the movies. Yeah, the moment when you meet another person. But there's also the moment when you meet your. Your home. And you described walking in through this door and gone. What was the feeling that you got when you walked in? What was that?
- [75:35]
Elizabeth Day
It was a surge of peace. I was about to say familiarity, but it wasn't quite that. It Was it was that peace and welcome and calm that I was in a beautiful place. And I don't just mean aesthetic beauty, I mean the beauty of the safety of it. And I did well up. I mean, such a cliche, but I did. I just walked in and I knew. And people do say that about houses, don't they? And it felt so right. Didn't even question it. I mean, it was beyond our budget and everything. So I was like, no, we have to do it. And I was thinking earlier, because you were talking to me about asking people about their three favorite buildings, and I was wondering what I would say in response. And obviously I would choose our home, this building. But the other building that had that impact on me, where I walked in and I cried because of the beauty, was the Pantheon in Rome. It's so stunning. And obviously my home is nothing like the Pantheon. But I think it's also about the care that has been taken to build a space that takes your breath away in some way is. Is kind of extraordinary.
- [76:51]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [76:51]
Elizabeth Day
The respect that people have paid to the materials and the thought that's gone into every generation. Yeah, that's very meaningful too.
- [76:58]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. The Pantheon is an absolutely mind blowing building, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I'm with you. The way that. The way it casts the light from the oculus onto the ground. Yeah, it's very profound. But I mean, you know, this is hard to say given your story, but I also think there's something about the womb in it.
- [77:20]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [77:21]
Matt Gibbard
You know. Yeah. The circularity, you know, human beings, when left to their own devices, you know, remote African tribes and so on, they will build homes that look kind of like wombs. They don't have a conventional door like we do. They have more of a sort of slit. They're always shaped like the Pantheon. And I just think we have this. Our inherent nesting instinct, I think, is to try and replicate that feeling of being in the womb.
- [77:53]
Elizabeth Day
You know, that makes total sense.
- [77:57]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [77:58]
So, you know, I agree. Absolutely phenomenal building.
- [78:02]
Elizabeth Day
Why aren't we all living in circular, smooth, round buildings?
- [78:06]
Matt Gibbard
Well, there you go. That's a big question.
- [78:09]
Elizabeth Day
It's for another podcast.
- [78:10]
Matt Gibbard
You can't get so many in down the street, isn't it?
- [78:12]
Elizabeth Day
No, that's what it is. It's packaging, isn't it? Yeah.
- [78:17]
Matt Gibbard
If I ask you to define that word home, how do you define it?
- [78:24]
Elizabeth Day
A place of welcome, acceptance, safety and peace.
- [78:32]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [78:35]
Elizabeth Day
Thank you. This has been so wonderful.
- [78:39]
Matt Gibbard
Oh, brilliant.
- [78:39]
Elizabeth Day
And has really made me think and feel and to do it in the home that I'm talking about has been really, really special. So thank you. I really appreciate that and thank you for provid my most aspirational Instagram content through the modern house Inigo. Love it. Look at it every single day. Some lovely cottages on Inigo right now.
- [79:01]
Matt Gibbard
Is that right?
- [79:02]
That's good to hear. Nice advertising. Nicely done.
- [79:06]
Elizabeth Day
Pleasure.
- [79:06]
Matt Gibbard
Thanks Elizabeth.
- [79:09]
Elizabeth Day
Thanks.
- [79:09]
Matt Gibbard
Thank you so much.
- [79:13]
Thank you to Elizabeth and thanks to all of you for listening. We've got some absolutely knockout guests coming up to soon so if you don't already follow the show, please tap follow and you won't miss a thing. A reminder that you can watch the video versions of our podcasts on YouTube and see House tours with our guests over on Patreon. Search for homing with Matt. This episode was produced by Pod Shop with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again everyone and talk to you very soon. Bye for.