A (2:37)

Thanks so much for being on the podcast and thanks for letting us into your wonderful home that you've recently refurbed. So we'll come on to that. But I'd like to start at the beginning. Where are you from originally? Are you a Londoner?

B (2:50)

Yeah, I mean, I was born in Enfield, raised mainly in South London in Bromley, spent a little bit of time in East Africa, and now lived here in hackney for about 13 years. We moved around a lot because of my dad's job. He was in and out of jobs a lot. So we would go with him, I think, wherever he was working. And he also. Some of his jobs were abroad, so we sometimes went with him there. I think it's a funny journey because basically I was born here. Then we went to Ethiopia when I was so 6 to 8. I was in Ethiopia. Then I came back here when I was 8. And I think there was a real kind of culture shock because Ethiopia had been this really. It was quite a defining place for me. And it had been warm and sunny, just on a practical level, but also we'd had quite a privileged lifestyle. And also I blended in, so people assumed I was Ethiopian. Then I came here to Bromley, which at the time was predominantly white, and it was obviously gray and cold because of the weather generally. And so I think there was quite a shock for me, like, getting used to life here. And so for a long time that. That felt like home. Ethiopia felt like home. And I think there was quite. Also because, like I said, my dad was in and out of jobs, so we thought we were going to go back, but we never did. So I think there was this sense of. I think, you know, a therapist would probably say there was like a, you know, this kind of. I didn't have closure.

A (4:24)

Yeah.

B (4:25)

So for a long time, I felt like I. This was not my home, London, and. And I felt like that was my home. That's where I felt I belonged. I didn't feel I belonged here. Yeah, For a long, long time. That was kind of my narrative in my head was, I want to go back home. But I think then I'd been here so long, and I think I eventually kind of started to feel like this was my home, but it took years.

A (4:51)

I find it so fascinating, this idea of belonging and being attached to a place of some sort of. Because I'm sure you've heard of attachment in terms of a child attaching to its caregiver and its mother. And so On.

B (5:04)

Yeah.

A (5:05)

But we also attach to the places that we grew up in as well.

B (5:08)

Yeah.

A (5:09)

And actually, it can be psychologically quite difficult for a child to move around quite a lot. So do you feel like there are any kind of sort of lasting effects of that peripatetic upbringing?

B (5:22)

Yeah, I think so. I always wonder because sometimes I meet people, actually now in adult life, I've sometimes met people were like, their dads worked for the UN and they lived. You know, they stayed in Africa. And I sometimes wonder what my life would have been like if I'd stayed. But instead it was kind of broken and we came here and kind of. Yeah, it was a different. Completely different trajectory. I think it definitely had an impact on me. Definitely. When I was younger, the traveling broadened my horizons to just the size of the world and I think also exposed me to things that I wouldn't have been exposed to here. You know, at the time we were in Ethiopia, actually, there was a lot of. I think it was a time of famine. There was also a coup. There were a couple of coups. So we were kind of evacuated at times, in and out. There were soldiers everywhere, a lot of poverty. So I think seeing that was. Obviously had an impact on me. Yeah. I think the lasting impact is that it has taken me just a long time to feel like I belong here. But I think I finally do feel that. And I think I'm also aware that a lot of people feel like they don't belong for various reasons. And the older I get, the more I realize that. I think we sometimes assume that it's just us who feel marginalized or like we don't necessarily fit in or, you know. But I think the older I get, the more I realize lots of people feel that sense of outsiderness, you know, so that's.

A (6:54)

That's something I've learned that's so interesting. So. So for someone that hasn't managed to achieve that sense of belonging, how have you done it? Is it just time?

B (7:06)

No, I mean, I wouldn't. I definitely don't think. I'm not like the model, you know, belonging person, because I still feel that at times.

A (7:14)

Yeah.

B (7:14)

You know, when I'm low or for some reason things aren't working out or whatever, I sometimes fall back into that. You know, it's almost like a default headspace. I think it's partly time. Right. Just being somewhere for a while. Yeah, I think it's partly time. It's partly, like I said, realizing that lots of people feel that. So in a sense, it's Kind of almost the human condition. It's not like everyone else is in this gang that I'm not part of in. You know, I think that's. It's quite humbling. But also it helps you to. I guess. Yeah. Because I think it's partly about disconnection and I think it helps you to connect with people when you realize that everyone's got their stories or their experiences that make them feel disconnected. Do you know what I mean?

A (8:06)

Yeah.

B (8:07)

So I think it's partly that.

A (8:08)

Yeah. Yeah. Because you sometimes hear about or even meet people who have grown up and still live on the same street, don't you?

B (8:17)

Yeah, yeah.

A (8:17)

And I always think that must be incredible.

B (8:20)

Yeah.

A (8:21)

To have this absolutely irrefutable sense that you belong in a place and that must be so grounding, I've always thought, but so many of us don't have that.

B (8:31)

I think there's something lovely about that and I think that should be celebrated as well. I think sometimes, because so few of us have that nowadays, I feel like sometimes that's almost ignored or kind of devalued in some way, but I think it's. That's really precious and I think that's lovely. Unfortunately, it's not my experience, you know, but in an ideal world, I mean, I would like to set that up for my kids.

A (8:55)

Would you?

B (8:55)

Yeah, well, yeah, but. But I know that that might not be the best thing for them as well, so I'm open to whatever happens. But, like, for instance, with my kids, I mean, my oldest kid, he's been in the same school since the nursery, and he's in year four now, and I was in, like, I think five primary schools, so it's a very different experience that he's having. And I'm happy that he knows everyone. And also we've lived in, like, three different places in this local area, so we know so many people, and I think that's really nice.

A (9:28)

I agree. I think that's a really great gift for a child, actually, Isn't it?

B (9:32)

Yeah.

A (9:32)

Do you go back to Ethiopia now, then, or.

B (9:35)

No, I actually. I was wondering about whether I could go back next year. I'm going to be 40 and I'm wondering if that would be a nice thing to do. But no, I don't. I'm going to Kenya, interestingly, in, like, on Sunday.

A (9:49)

Oh, wow. What for?

B (9:52)

To discuss a project. It's like a research trip. But that's really special because to me the whole of East Africa is like, you know, this place. I'm going in Kenya is actually northern Kenya and it's very close to where my dad is from in northern Uganda. You kind of ignore the border, so. Yeah, it's just. It's a really special place. I'm really excited about that.

A (10:15)

That's cool.

B (10:16)

Yeah.

A (10:17)

Thinking about a slightly different theme. I mean, so many of the people that I meet talk about their home as a refuge or a safe space. Words like that come up a lot. So this idea of safety in relation to the home, did you feel that sense of safety growing up as a child, do you think, in relation to the home?

B (10:39)

Yeah, I did definitely when I was in Bromley, because, like I said, I was very much a minority. My home was the one place where I felt very safe. And actually on the streets at times you'd get abuse. Like sometimes walking to school, I might get people shouting stuff at me. So the home was definitely a safe space. Yes. It's kind of in contrast to what was outside of it.

A (11:04)

That's so interesting. Do you feel like that now in your current home?

B (11:09)

Yeah, I do. I think it's hard. The idea of a sanctuary is sometimes hard to create when you've got young kids, like, realistically.

A (11:16)

I don't know what you mean.

B (11:18)

I mean, up on the top floor now, I do actually have that. It's such so lovely to be able to have that one room that is kind of supposedly mine. I'm just getting used to this and I've only just cleared it out recently. But, yeah, sanctuary, I wouldn't say, you know, I'm imagining. Maybe that's a different season of my life.

A (11:35)

Yeah.

B (11:36)

But definitely, like, I'm just. It's nice to have a. Just a peaceful place and space for the kids. I know they're safe, you know.

A (11:47)

Yes, exactly. Right. So what. What were you like as a child? If we could be a fly on the wall, what kind of character were you?

B (11:52)

I always liked my own space, actually. My siblings say that because they're all kind of more extroverts. I had three siblings.

A (12:00)

Okay.

B (12:01)

And I was always a person who kind of. I mean, I played with them and stuff. I loved playing games, but I was always the person who kind of needed a bit of my own space and could be a bit rude about it. But, you know, I was good at school. I liked maths, I liked English, I liked art, obviously. I liked drawing.

A (12:19)

So were you popular at school? Did you get on well with other kids and stuff, or was that difficult for you?

B (12:23)

I generally was. Secondary school got a bit tricky because I started to just this this kind of alienation, that's what I started to really experience then. I think that's when it really started to kick in. But as in primary school. Yeah, I got on with people.

A (12:37)

When you say alienation, what, did you get bullied and stuff, or.

B (12:40)

No, I didn't, thank God. It was just being a minority.

A (12:44)

Yeah.

B (12:44)

I also went to a very good school where there are a lot of very wealthy kids and so we didn't have much money because my dad was in and out of work. I was one of the only black kids. And it was also very elitist, the school, just the atmosphere. So I think I kind of kicked back against that. I mean, I did find in all my tests and stuff, but socially I started to really, like, reject that. It was a really quite painful part of my life.

A (13:10)

So this is being a teenager.

B (13:12)

Yeah. Which again, as I'm older, I start to realize that a lot of people felt that for different reasons.

A (13:18)

Do you think that's partly because you were being told that you're different and that you're a minority, so therefore you wanted to assert yourself or your identity?

B (13:27)

I think it was just being the odd one out and feeling like I didn't fit in and feeling like people couldn't relate to what I was going through or what I was experiencing. But I think it was also me as a person, the way that I responded to that situation, because I think other people in the same skin might have responded in a different way. So I'm also aware of that. And I think in a way I set myself apart. I withdrew. You know how when people are uncomfortable, sometimes they move forward and become a bit kind of. I don't know what the word would be. Explosive or. I don't know what the word would be. Cause trouble or something. I kind of withdrew. I withdrew from people and kind of. Which I don't think was a healthy thing, but that was my response to that. So, you know, I learned a lot. I learned that I needed people because I think at the time I decided that I didn't need people, I didn't need these people. And so I was a Jewish. But then I ended up realising we all need people as humans, so it wasn't good for me, but, you know, that's what I did.

A (14:33)

How did you pull yourself out of that then? Can you remember?

B (14:36)

I left the school, I went to sixth form college and I still was very much kind of in my shell, I guess It's a couple of things. Art was definitely something that I did in order to process what I was going through. So I would, you know, draw. And a lot of the stuff I would draw was kind of. Kind of about empowerment also. Just processing what I was going through. It just instinctively, that's what I did. How I got out of it, I think on a really deep level. So my faith definitely brought me out of it because I think I was very. I started to hate everyone, started to hate the world, which a lot of teenagers do, don't they? But I think I. I realized that I couldn't do that. And ultimately, I think Jesus changed my heart and healed me and helped me to love. Knowing that he loved me helped me to love other people, even though I didn't feel they loved me.

A (15:38)

So that's amazing. So did you grow up with religion, or is that something you discovered at that stage?

B (15:43)

My parents had always taken me to church and stuff, and I'd always say that I was a Christian. But interestingly, it was around that time, that difficult time, secondary school, that I went to a new church, and I started to. I would say I really was seeking a relationship with Jesus rather than just trying to follow rules and go to church, because that's what you're supposed to do. So it was around that time that I got deeper into that, and that really, to be honest, saved me from this kind of very dark place.

A (16:17)

So this is obviously a podcast about the home. I mean, would you characterize it that the church, in some ways, became a bit of a surrogate home for you? Did it give you that sense of belonging, do you think? Or is that simplistic?

B (16:27)

It's funny, because actually, like a lot of groups, churches can sometimes be a bit cliquey. And the church that I was at at the time, I think was a bit cliquey. The young people, you know, they were young people. You know what young people are like. And again, I didn't really fit in. I think ideally, the home. The church should be a home. And I've been at churches in my life where it has felt like a home, but at the time, the church sadly didn't. But it was. It was God calling me home.

A (16:57)

Yeah.

B (16:58)

And a lot of my work kind of explores that, interestingly.

A (17:02)

I wonder if actually it's fundamentally about finding the home within yourself.

B (17:08)

I know what I mean. Yeah, I know. And that's. I think that's kind of. Yeah, it's almost like it's. It's like a human yearning. A lot of the work that I make is kind of this longing for paradise I often talk about. And when I Talk about paradise. Part of paradise is this idea of, like, this place of belonging, you know, if you think about paradise, all of these things we're talking about alienation and feeling separated and disconnected from people that wouldn't be there. It would be the opposite. Those feelings of connection and belonging and ultimately home. And if the idea is that we started off in paradise, you know, in this garden of Eden. So I think a lot of my work is about this kind of longing for that and speaking about, like, a hope for that. So, yeah, I think that kind of idea of home and belonging, I think it's kind of like something that we all long and yearn for, so.

A (18:04)

Interesting. Yeah, Maybe we'll come back to that. I'd love to ask about a bit more about your family. So you've mentioned your dad. What about your mum?

B (18:11)

Yeah, my mum, she lives pretty close to me now, which is nice.

A (18:15)

Amazing.

B (18:15)

Yeah.

A (18:16)

So you still see a lot of her?

B (18:17)

Yeah.

A (18:18)

And did she work when you were growing up or.

B (18:20)

Yep, she. So I think when we were very young, she didn't work, which is nice. She was able to be really involved in our lives then, because my dad was out of work, she started to. She tried being a teacher at one point. Then she. Most of the stuff she did was, like, charity work and she ran a soup kitchen at one point, so. Yeah.

A (18:42)

Cool. And what about your siblings? Are you still close to them?

B (18:45)

Yeah, so I've got a sister and a brother and then me, then a younger sister.

A (18:49)

Okay. Are they roughly in this area or do you know?

B (18:52)

Yeah, my brother's really close. My older sister lives with my mum, but also. So most of the time she lives in Jamaica, but she kind of travels around a lot for work. My younger sister lives in Bermondsey.

A (19:05)

Okay, so your parents separated?

B (19:07)

I think they stayed married, but they didn't live together. My dad moved to Greenwich when I was about 16.

A (19:13)

Okay. How was that?

B (19:15)

Good, because it was. He needed to leave because it was difficult living with him. It was really difficult to live with.

A (19:22)

Why was it difficult to live with, if you don't mind me asking?

B (19:24)

I think he probably had mental health issues.

A (19:28)

Okay.

B (19:29)

And so, yeah, there came a point where I think my mum asked him to leave. So he moved to Greenwich. He got a place there. Yeah. And the relationship is complicated, the kind of how it went. But I'd still visit him. So we still had a relationship, but it was very difficult.

A (19:47)

That's also very difficult.

B (19:48)

Yeah.

A (19:49)

How did that affect you as a child, do you think? I mean, did that contribute to the withdrawal that you talked about?

B (19:55)

I think in hindsight, I think it did. Because when I look back, I'm like, okay, that time where I was kind of withdrawing from people was when things were really tough with him, just, I think before he moved out. So it was kind of that season. So that's what was happening at home and then at school, I was kind of. I hadn't put the 2 and 2 to put the two together. And I think anyone put it together, which is a shame, because it could have been helpful at that point to have some kind of, you know, therapy, probably. But in hindsight, I think, yeah, there was definitely a lot going on. And at the same time, you know, GCSE A levels, all that stuff, that kind of pressure. But, you know, that that family situation was really difficult at the time. Yeah. But I mean, before that, growing up, he had been around a lot because he didn't work. He was very. Well, he didn't work for quite a lot of the time. He was very involved at home. So he'd, like, walk us to school often. School and back. He was always doing chores around the house. So.

A (20:56)

Yeah, so it sounds like you found a bit of solace as well in your artwork. So let's move on to that. So how did you figure out that you could potentially pursue that as a passion and as a career eventually?

B (21:09)

Yeah, I didn't want to do it when I was younger because my dad always said, I think it was. Must have been my dad, that he couldn't earn a lot of money. So I was always. Money was always on my mind. So when I went into the school, my plan was to be an accountant, because that was my. I was good at maths, and I saw that as a good job, you know, a good, you know, job that you make money from. But I kind of had an epiphany, actually, that actually you could do all that work and maybe not get a job, or you could do all that work and get a job, but maybe not be happy. So I decided that I was going to do instead what I wanted to do, which is funny. But then when I came out of college, I stayed with some friends in Brazil and I started painting and drawing. And I realized that when I was kind of left to my own devices, that's what I wanted to do. So then I came back to London and I got a place on clearing at London College of Communication to do graphic design. And so that's what kind of the trajectory I went on.

A (22:13)

Okay, so you're doing graphic Design. And how does that segue into fine art?

B (22:17)

So basically the course was really conceptual.

A (22:22)

Yeah.

B (22:22)

Which I hated at first because I was like, this is just. I hadn't been brought up in kind of that kind of.

A (22:30)

Yeah.

B (22:30)

You know, a world where you spoke. You kind of took fine art seriously or took conceptual art seriously. It was super conceptual. So the idea was they were trying to push the boundaries of graphic design and you could just basically do whatever you wanted. But it was all about the thinking. So I ended up making these big paintings. I ended up doing lots of different things. One of the things I ended up doing was making these big paintings. And I think I became more interested in the idea than I had been before in terms of what you want to say, you know, what you want to express, rather than just like designing logos or designing CD covers, which is what my initial intention was. And I began to realize that you could say anything. It became really exciting, the idea that you could be really ambitious, but also that you could communicate anything. I just became really excited by the potential of that. So I made these. Started making these big paintings.

A (23:26)

And did you have a big break moment, do you think? Was it more of a war of attrition?

B (23:31)

It was definitely like non stop saying yes to everything, doing everything. But one of the things I was invited to do about four years after graduating was a mural in Miami. This massive mural, one of the, I think the biggest mural I've ever done still, which is like 132 foot long, 20 foot high. And so I said yes, though. I was really scared. And I ended up doing that. And that was definitely a turning point because people could see that I could paint on that scale. Interestingly, I think Instagram was just on like at the beginning at that time. So murals were like. And Instagram were really good, you know, friends. Yeah, that definitely was a big turning point.

A (24:15)

That's so interesting, isn't it? So do you think that your. The graphic quality and the incredible sort of color and vigor of your work, has that really helped you, that social media presence?

B (24:31)

I think so, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think so.

A (24:33)

I think it makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of messaging in there as well. It's sort of perfect for social media, isn't it?

B (24:37)

Yeah. Which I hadn't planned, but it did, it worked.

A (24:41)

So I think that the artwork that maybe people might be most familiar with, certainly in this realm, is the electrical substation that you wrapped in kind of colored slats that you can see from the north circular road, the A406 as you drive down it. I absolutely love that project and whenever I drive past it, it certainly lifts me in some way. So tell us about that project for people that don't know it.

B (25:06)

Yeah. So that was a collaboration with the architect iftu and it was commissioned by, I think it was Argent, the property developers for Brent Cross Town, which was this new development. And the first thing that they needed to build there was this substation to power the whole site. So we were commissioned to wrap this substation, basically because the whole area is really gray concrete, quite ugly. It's like a kind of spaghetti junction kind of thing. And it's also. It feels quite hostile. Like, I think once I got the bus there for some reason and like taking public transport there, it's. Yeah, it's just not nice. Like there's cars whizzing by and everything. So we really wanted to kind of subvert that and bring something really beautiful into the space. So we created this big structure that wrapped around the substation and it was very much about kind of trying to create a landmark for the new development place making, I guess, trying to create a sense of. In a way, something that people could kind of latch onto to feel like it was home, kind of homemaking in a way, which is quite interesting.

A (26:17)

I mean, it's a brilliant project. And then you've recently got back from Paris where you had a solo exhibition. I mean, I've been looking at it online and reading about it. Barber shops are a big inspiration here, aren't they? Tell us about that. Why are you inspired by barbershops?

B (26:32)

So my husband is a barber and that was the kind of route in. And for ages. So we met. The way that my husband and I got to know each other was I painted his barbershop, which was. This was his original barbershop, which he didn't own. He just worked in it. He used to run it. It was. When was that? Like 2010, I think. So for ages I'd wanted to do something that was relating to that and this just seemed like a good time to do it. So this whole body of work was inspired by the barbershop. It ended up being kind of almost an exploration of masculinity and a celebration of masculinity through the barbershop.

A (27:11)

I was reading about barbers poles.

B (27:13)

Yeah.

A (27:14)

People may know this. I didn't, but those kind of spinning signs that you see outside barbershops called barbers poles. And they signify something, don't they?

B (27:23)

Yeah.

A (27:23)

Which is that back in the day they didn't just cut hair. They also performed surgery in these places, didn't they?

B (27:29)

Yeah, yeah.

A (27:30)

And they're red, white and blue, and the red signifies blood, and the blue is a vein and the white is a bandage.

B (27:36)

Bandage, yeah. Yeah.

A (27:37)

Which I found so interesting. But you did your own barber's poll for the exhibition, didn't you?

B (27:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (27:43)

So what. I mean, apart from the masculinity element, what else is it that interests you about that as a sort of. As a thinking about a barbershop as a home, as a place where people congregate? What is it about it?

B (27:53)

I think it's the. It's the fact that it is a safe space, actually is a sanctuary, I think, a barbershop for men.

A (28:00)

Why is it?

B (28:01)

Why? I think because they've got their own space. I think there's safety in that, in the fact that there's no women there, to be honest. I think it's a. Which is, you know, for them, I think it's a nice thing. I think they feel like they can relax in that space and not having to kind of guard or watch themselves.

A (28:16)

Let's move on to your home where we're sitting now. Your lovely home. So how long have you been here for?

B (28:22)

I've been here 18 months.

A (28:23)

18 months, okay. And what was it like when you got here?

B (28:26)

So, to be honest, we renovated it before we moved in.

A (28:28)

Oh, okay. Oh, that's sensible.

B (28:30)

Well, no one ever does that. Yeah, but I mean, it wasn't when we moved in, to be honest. The day we moved in was on fireworks night. 2023. It's a good one to remember when you're filling out, like, tax forms and stuff. You know what I mean?

A (28:46)

How long have you been at this address?

B (28:47)

Yeah, exactly. So that's when we moved in and we lived on the top floor. We were all sleeping on the ground. I don't think we had hot water. So it was, you know, that wasn't ideal, but it wasn't long. I think all of this had been done. We had, like, plastic sheets up. I don't know if the flooring was down, but covered. It wasn't super smooth and organized. But, yeah, most of it was done before we moved in.

A (29:12)

So for people that are listening to this and not watching it, just describe. We're in East London and this is a terraced house. But what, in the 70s or something like that?

B (29:21)

I think it's 60s.

A (29:22)

60S.

B (29:23)

It's funny because it's like. It's not. It's not super modernist. I think it's almost like a cottage. I've heard people call these cottages. Yeah, it's just a small row of. I don't know, maybe about 10 or 12 of these little terraces. We've got a garden, which is nice. We've extended the roof so it's. It still feels, I think, a bit like a cottage. That's how I like to think of it.

A (29:45)

I agree, it does feel like a.

B (29:46)

Cottage, but like a modern cottage.

A (29:47)

Yeah, totally agree. What I really like about it is you've created quite adaptable space. So you've got sliding doors that you paint a very bold color. So you've got a bright yellow and a green and is there a pink in there?

B (30:00)

Yeah, there's a pink there and a brown and yellow. Yeah.

A (30:02)

So tell me about that. How do you. Cause actually, what's quite good is they're pocket doors. So they pull right back into the pocket. So I guess you can choose to live with color or not live with color, depending how you're feeling. In some ways it's true.

B (30:15)

And most of the time they're open, which. Cause I wanted the whole thing to be open plan. But my husband didn't want that. Cause he's practical and actually we ended up with something better. Cause it does mean that, you know, when the kids are getting a bit annoying and I'm trying to have a chat with someone, we can close that off. But most of the time they're open.

A (30:31)

Yeah, yeah. Because when you've got kids, you do need that sort of acoustic separation sometimes.

B (30:36)

Sometimes. Exactly. Then it does make it mean you've got two spaces rather than one that is just permanently open. So. Yeah. And it's a nice little pop of color because most of the place we haven't put too much color in, to be honest, because we wanted it again. My husband, who's really practical, was like, I'm always changing my mind. It's true. Yeah. I am always changing my mind. And like, you know, to like, live with something and then get annoyed and be like, oh, I wish I'd done this, I wish I'd done that. So we just kept it all quite neutral. But you can kind of change the colours of those quite easily.

A (31:06)

But as I say, they sort of. They disappear out of sight. So it's really clever. But you've. In your living space, you've got a huge rug. That's one of your designs. Which came from Christie's. Right. So tell us about that. How come you've got that?

B (31:20)

So I. I was commissioned to do a takeover of Christie's during freeze week, I think. October 2023, I think.

A (31:30)

So there's Christie's House auction house.

B (31:32)

Okay. Yeah.

A (31:33)

Is it what, the one on King Street? The main one?

B (31:35)

Exactly. Yeah. The floor was. And it was all vinyl and carpet. So you've got this carpet made, and it went all the way up the stairs. It was lovely. Like, it worked really well. And then when it was finished, we took it and basically I repurposed it. I created little rugs out of that big installation. Yeah. We got the edges. Whipp on this one and another one. One's in my studio. One is here because there were these two hands, which is this kind of recurring motif in my work. So one of the hands is here, one's in the studio, and then there's a couple of other off cuts that I haven't found a useful yet. Yeah.

A (32:08)

What do the hands mean in your work? Also, I love it on your website, the way there's a big hand that you navigate around the website with instead of a cursor. So what is that?

B (32:16)

So the hands actually started. There was a painting I made in, like, during. I think was during lockdown maybe. I don't know, that said, this will be a safe space. And I put these two hands in it. I think those are the first hands. They were my hands, but everyone always thinks they're my husband's hands because I painted them a bit too dark because I'm not an expert. I'm growing in my figurative painting. And so the color was just slightly dark in my hands when they're super tanned. But it's my hand, and it's about connection, actually. So, you know, the hand can kind of mean different things. It's either reaching up. It can be like praise. It can be, you know, connecting two hands. Connecting. So that's really what it's about, is connection. And it's. It's fun because I've kind of used the hands in lots of different places and then used other hands. But I think it's been quite a nice. It's quite a. It's full of meaning, isn't it? A hand.

A (33:13)

Yeah. I guess there's religious connotations as well.

B (33:16)

Yeah.

A (33:17)

Especially a pair of hands.

B (33:18)

Yeah.

A (33:19)

So you were telling me earlier as well that you've got this sofa here, which is an IKEA sofa.

B (33:23)

Yeah.

A (33:24)

But you've recovered it.

B (33:25)

Yeah.

A (33:26)

So, I mean, it's so uplifting. But tell me about. Why did you choose to do that?

B (33:33)

Well, it was gray. The sofa was gray. It wasn't like the nicest sofa, but it's just like, it's practical. It's got storage underneath. My life is very much about practicality.

A (33:42)

Yeah, right.

B (33:43)

Yeah. So it was all gray and I thought, okay, let's add some coloring. So, yeah, got some bespoke covers made.

A (33:49)

How does that pass the test of something that you won't get bored of like you described, you know?

B (33:52)

Well, to be honest, I am a bit bored of it, but.

A (33:56)

But.

B (33:57)

And they're also getting quite worn. They're washed every now and again. We wash them. They're washable and removable. I am getting a bit bored of it. So I probably will change them up fairly soon. But there you go. So it means that I can. Because. Quite easy to do. Just covers. Exactly. I can get some new covers eventually. I'll probably get a new sofa, but not right now. You know, maybe when the kids are grown up a bit older, when I.

A (34:19)

Can trust them, it's cool as well. You were saying your husband is sort of all about comfort. And so as a result, you've got a lot of carpet in the house, haven't you?

B (34:27)

Yes.

A (34:28)

So it's carpeted all the way up the stairs and then up in the bedrooms as well.

B (34:31)

Yeah.

A (34:31)

All different colors.

B (34:32)

Yeah.

A (34:33)

So was that the compromise you said, I'll do carpet as long as I can?

B (34:36)

Exactly, yeah. Because to be honest, I wanted wood, he wanted carpet. He wanted really thick flush carpet. And because it carpet wise, I would have accepted like, hey, is it jute? You know those ones that are like more kind of natural, you know, that kind of feel. But he wouldn't accept that because it's too rough.

A (34:57)

Okay.

B (34:58)

You know, it's not comfortable, is it? Like, it's the type of thing you, you lean your hand down, you get like an imprint and a gray.

A (35:03)

Yeah, you do.

B (35:04)

So he wouldn't accept that. So it had to be this kind of plush style. And so, yeah, I said, well, at least let's get some different colors. So that, that was the compromise.

A (35:14)

It's got. I mean, what, what I particularly like about upstairs, you've opened up into the roof void in your bedrooms and then you've lined it with plywood to sort of accentuate it. It works so well. I think what is quite a small room suddenly feels a huge amount bigger.

B (35:30)

Yeah.

A (35:31)

So I really like what you've done there. Do you know how long you're going to be here for in this home?

B (35:35)

I don't know. I mean, you know, we could be here forever.

A (35:39)

Yeah.

B (35:40)

I don't know.

A (35:41)

Well, I mean, with that in mind, how did you think about the kids and how they might respond to this space? And I suppose, how would you like them to look back on the house that they grew up in?

B (35:53)

I guess I want them to have enjoyed it. I think that a lot of it has been done with the kids in mind. Like, the kids almost are the priority, and everything kind of fits around them. Do you know what I mean? I want them to feel like they're free. My husband always says that, like, with the. And also, we've got two boys and a girl, and they're very physical. Even the girl, because she's copying them, she's really, really able. Like, she climbs up the fence in the garden. The other day I came out and found her at the top of the fence. She's two. Yeah. I was like, oh, my goodness. I didn't know she'd do it. But it's always been important to us that they feel like they can relax in their home and they don't have to, like, kind of watch this and that. That they can just kind of. Do you know what I mean? Have that sense of freedom. They're not having to watch themselves. So everything is kind of done with that in mind. So there's quite a lot of compromise. There's not too much kind of. There's nothing really expensive, but there's no kind of artwork. I mean, I eventually will put some artwork up, but, like, there's nothing too valuable or too precious because almost everything gets destroyed. So, you know, that's kind of where I'm at this season. Yeah.

A (37:05)

That's the reality of a family home. I mean. Yeah, your husband's prioritizing comfort, and you're talking about safety and. Yeah, that's the reality, isn't it?

B (37:13)

Yeah.

A (37:13)

So I totally get that. What would a typical day here look like for you? Do you work from home a lot or you in the studio?

B (37:19)

I do work. It depends what's happening in the studio.

A (37:22)

Yeah.

B (37:23)

But I do often. I'll do, like, zoom calls and stuff from here or from my top floor in that room. Typical day. Porridge around the table.

A (37:32)

Always porridge.

B (37:34)

Pretty much. They. Cheerios is the treat for Sundays. I think it's Sundays. But sometimes I'm like, yeah, whatever. You missed it. My oldest son was telling me he missed. He missed his Cheerios on Sunday because. Can you have it today? I was like, no, because it's just the porridge is easy. Not even toast. Because toast. Our toaster broke down. We had this really nice Muji Toaster. But it. For a while, it's. We haven't had it. And I'm trying to eat less bread, so we don't have a toaster right now. But also, it's just like, you know, toast. It's like they've got to get their plates out, get the butter out. It's all just, like, a bit chaotic. I'm just trying to go for simplicity. It's boom, boom, boom. We can.

A (38:12)

One thing.

B (38:13)

You know what I mean?

A (38:14)

Yeah, yeah.

B (38:14)

So it's just like porridge. Boom, boom, boom. Cinnamon and cranberries. Or cinnamon and honey for the two little ones. The old one doesn't like cinnamon, so just honey and that's it.

A (38:24)

And we're done, I think. Yeah.

B (38:26)

And porridge is pretty good for you, so, you know, that's just my way of making life easier.

A (38:30)

I can't convince our eldest to eat porridge. I wish you'd give me a tip on that. But, yeah, I agree.

B (38:37)

They just don't have a choice.

A (38:38)

So many different orders in the morning.

B (38:39)

That's what I mean. I can't be doing that. Like, it needs to be just bish, bash, bosh and the rest. There's too much other stuff to be doing.

A (38:46)

Totally. I want to ask you about words, because words come up a huge amount in your work. What do they mean, the words in your work? Why do you use words?

B (38:56)

I've always liked words because they're so powerful. I think I was very aware when I was younger of how powerful words were. I remember being told off a lot. They used to say I had a sharp tongue. And so I was often told that I couldn't say this and that or I had to. It's funny, I remember that a lot, which I don't know if it was the right response because it was just almost like censoring myself rather than finding a way of using that sharp tongue for something positive. Do you know what I mean? Anyway, who knows? But maybe that's what I'm doing. But I just. Words are so powerful and they can have. Yeah, they just have so much power. I'm just really aware of that. And so the words that I paint, they're often very hopeful and they're often trying to uplift. You know, I said how My work was very much like, you know, I found solace in my. In making drawings and paintings and stuff. And I think often I was talking to myself, like I was trying to build myself up with the words that I might write or the words I might draw. And so often it is kind of me speaking almost to myself or speaking over my family, you know, whatever I'm painting.

A (40:03)

So sort of positive affirmation kind of.

B (40:06)

Yeah. I mean, I like to think of them as prayers. Often like painted prayers I'll think of. But yeah, it's the same concept. It's like. Because, you know, and I often say my. I'm naturally quite a pessimist. So in my mind, sometimes my mind is so full of stuff and sometimes it's so full of negativity, like just this about that person or this about that situation or this about myself. So much so for me, the words are focusing on truth, focusing on good things, that. To kind of silence, all of that. Do you understand?

A (40:38)

Yeah, yeah.

B (40:40)

And I think. I don't think I'm alone in that. I think there are other people who feel that, and I think that's maybe why the work resonates.

A (40:46)

Where does that negativity come from, Dragon?

B (40:48)

I think it's kind of the way I'm wired because, like, I know other people who generally have almost like, it's just a positive outlook on life, and I just don't. I tend to see the problems, the issues, which is. I wish it was different, but it just. It does seem to be like the way that my default mode is kind of this quite analytical and looking at the problems and the downsides of situations.

A (41:15)

So have you got quite a harsh inner critic, as they call it?

B (41:17)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I don't know whether it's to do with the way I was raised. You know, like, my dad was definitely quite critical and very much like, you know, people joke that a lot of African parents are like this. Like, if you get home, you get, you know, 99%. What happened to the 1%, you know, so I think maybe it's a bit of that. I was very, you know, I was quite a high achiever at school and I think I was always like, maybe I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I can always see the room to do better. And that's annoying, but it does mean that you end up with some good stuff. You know, you end up producing good stuff. But sometimes it's like I wish I could be a bit more satisfied and content. And that's. That's something I really long for, is more contentment.

A (41:59)

Are you one of those people that. That enjoys the process of creating more than the actual result? Like, once you've created it, are you done with it by then?

B (42:06)

I am, I think also because sometimes my work is quite Ephemeral. So I am quite kind of like, what's next? But I'm always just learning, trying to learn to enjoy more, to be honest. Enjoy the process. I don't necessarily enjoy the process.

A (42:18)

Okay.

B (42:19)

It's not quite. I think it's probably that, that kind of ambition and always wanting to, you know, pushing for the, for the, pushing to do better and all of that. So yeah, what I enjoy is just kind of like sitting in the sunshine doing nothing. Do you know what I mean?

A (42:37)

Do you get to do that ever?

B (42:38)

Not a lot. I've had more time recently to do that, which is actually really lovely. Just being able to slow down a bit. And that's actually one of my. One of my dreams is to. Not dreams, but one of my plans is to try and slow things down more and pace things more because for the last 10 years it's all just been like kind of non stop. So that's something I have, you know, I'm enjoying doing some gardening and I'm loving that. Like I really enjoy that. And it's all quite new to me, but I really enjoy that. I feel like we're made to do that as humans, like so I really enjoyed that. And I think I love being in nature. I think I want there to be more of that in my life.

A (43:18)

That sounds really good. Yeah. Sort of mindfulness, bringing that into your life. I'm the same in a moment of weakness. A while back I was in a bookshop and I bought a book called the Perfection Trap. And I haven't read it yet, but I have the same kind of disease as you. It's very, very tough. But you know, when you're. You have that inner drive to create something, achieve something, and it's quite difficult, I think, to stop and just reflect and say, that went well.

B (43:47)

I know. And especially also I think when a lot of your work is quite solitary and I have, you know, a small studio team now, but it's still, it's very much me carrying this thing and it's like, you know, if you're part of a big team, I think at least you know, the idea of like an appraisal from a boss, for instance, that's not something I ever get. So I think all of that can help. It's almost like a ritual, isn't it? Those types of things, they help you to sit back and be like, okay, what's gone well? Oh, this is great, you know, well done kind of thing, celebrate. So I think all of that is something I hope to kind of have More plan. More into the process for me.

A (44:29)

So you talked about. We talked about words briefly. You talked about having a bit of a vicious tongue sometimes. Has that ever got you into trouble?

B (44:36)

I think maybe when I was sometimes unguarded, like at school, just small things. But, no, not really. It was more just in the home, and I think it was quickly nipped in the bud. It was explained to me that there were various things that I kind of had to just hold in.

A (44:52)

So do you. Do you. How do words play out in your home now? Is this a loud place full of shouting? What's it like?

B (45:00)

Yeah, it's a lot of noise. That's why this is really not a true reflection of the home.

A (45:06)

It's so serene in here.

B (45:07)

Yeah, but it does. To be honest, it does still feel calm, which is nice, but there's a lot of. A lot of kind of. Yeah, a lot of noise. The kids are really into football songs right now. It's really weird. Somehow we've ended up all of these, like, football chants that they sing. And my little toddler girl, she does it too, like Kevin de Bruyne. Do you know what I mean? She sings that as we go riding on the bike. It's hilarious. But so there's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of noise.

A (45:37)

So. One person we did a podcast with is a brilliant jeweller called Jacqueline Raybun, who lives in la.

B (45:44)

Oh, wow.

A (45:45)

She grew up in quite a tricky household, I think. And so she's got a rule, which is. Or she had a rule as they were growing up, which was just no raised voices ever, which I find so interesting.

B (45:57)

Wow. Which she gave to the.

A (45:59)

Which she implemented in her household with her kids.

B (46:03)

Yeah, yeah, I know. We definitely have raised voices. I mean, I'm not. I. I'm not a gentle parenter. Is that what they call it, gentle parenting? Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely shouted the kids. I sometimes watch myself and I'm like, I'm shouting too much. But definitely when I'm riding on the bike and they're with me, you need to do a lot of shouting for them to be hurt, for me to be heard. And I do shout. You know, I do shout. We all shout there, and I'm okay with that. They know they're loved.

A (46:28)

Yeah, I get it. I was going to ask you about. I saw someone talking about the New London Fabulous Style. Have you come across this?

B (46:40)

Yeah, I have heard about that. Yeah.

A (46:42)

Someone put a label on it, but it's basically. There's definitely a kind of groundswell of creativity through people like yourself. Yinka Ilori is an obvious comparable. Morag Myers cough and so on, who use bold colors, graphics, emblems, things like that. Do you feel like you're part of a slightly larger movement of some kind, or have you not thought about that?

B (47:09)

I haven't thought about it much, but I totally hear what you're saying. Like, you know, I think it's quite interesting because sometimes it's easier to see these things when you're outside of it, isn't it?

A (47:17)

Yeah.

B (47:18)

And sometimes it's also easier. I sometimes wondered, you know, in 20 years, will you look back and see. Oh, yeah, there was a pattern. Sometimes easier to also look back with hindsight. But, yeah, I think there is a bit of a thing. I don't think about it much. Only when, you know, when asked or when there's a particular kind of. When it's. Maybe that's the topic. But I think. I think the way I've come about this has been quite a. I didn't plan it out, and it's not been like, for a particular school of thought. You know what I mean?

A (47:48)

Yeah.

B (47:48)

So it's been quite. I've kind of almost stumbled across this.

A (47:52)

So it's instinctive.

B (47:53)

Yeah. But I definitely understand what you mean in terms of parallels. Yeah.

A (47:57)

I just suppose. I just wonder, what is it about today, culturally, that means that this sort of bold, optimistic art work is coming out? What do you think about that?

B (48:08)

That's interesting. I think on a practical level, like I mentioned Instagram, I think that can't help but shape visual culture, you know, because it's almost like if. If Instagram really lent itself to miniature work or something, then I could imagine that kind of becoming something that you saw more of. And I think, yeah, the graphic quality, maybe the optimism. I don't know. I often think about how we as people, as humans, almost need things to kind of. Well, things to encourage us, but also kind of words to live by, maybe. And the words thing maybe is maybe in the absence of any other words, people kind of seek that out. I don't know.

A (48:55)

I have to say, Lacon, I find it absolutely fascinating. What I've taken away from this is that you are naturally quite pessimistic and quite introspective and critical of yourself, and yet you produce this work that is so optimistic and such a kind of call to action. So I find that so interesting. I love the way that you're almost sort of doing it for yourself as a kind of way to motivate yourself.

B (49:23)

Yeah. It is. It definitely is. Because, yeah, it's like almost survival. It's like having to lift myself.

A (49:32)

What would life be like for you if you didn't create, if you weren't an artist?

B (49:36)

I sometimes think I would have liked to be a dancer.

A (49:38)

All right.

B (49:39)

Or maybe like a farmer. Those are. Those are my alternatives. And the farmer, I think, is like a retreat from this world. Because sometimes I do feel like it's quite a lot of pressure. You know, it's quite performative. It can feel quite performative, you know, because ultimately paintings have to be shown and, you know, you have to. You know what I mean? And sometimes I'm like. I just. It's just a lot. And the idea of doing something that felt really modest and very humble and, you know, you're not, like, showing off about the turnip that you grown. I. I know it can get to that because best in show, if you're. If you have that. You know, as humans, we just tend to get like that. But. And so I'd probably be out there trying to build the most eco, you know, coolest farm. But I like the idea of just being a. No, nobody knows who I am farmer. Doing that.

A (50:32)

Well, that. That brings me on to. I just loved you. To cast your mind into the future. If you could sort of draw a picture of your life in the future at some point, a kind of idealistic, you know, life that you might lead, what sort of building might you live in? How would you live? Where would it be?

B (50:50)

Well, I think I love the city. Right. But I also love the countryside, and I love Africa. I think I'd want to kind of, like, be in between a few places. That's my dream. It's kind of like my plan, but I don't know if I'll accomplish it. We'll see. But, like, so to have a space here in London, a space in the countryside here, like a tree house in the middle of some woods that was fairly close to a station, and that was, like, safe enough, you know, so that I had just that security. So, like, yeah, tree house is what I'd like to live in. But then also I'd love to live, like, in a hut in my dad's village in Uganda that I'd also love to be there and be able to kind of go there and come back and. Yeah, that would be my kind of dream set up.

A (51:38)

Why would you want the hut in Uganda?

B (51:40)

Ever since I was a kid, I've kind of yearned for this kind of. That kind of life that slow Pace of life, growing your own food that you eat. No noise, you know, short, natural noise, but no, kind of. Not even electricity. Like, I'd love to just live like that for a bit. And I know it's not easy, and obviously my idea of it is very kind of romanticized, but I just really long for that. And I think. I think about the fact that that's how my ancestors lived. Well, half of them. And I've lived most of my life this way, so I kind of would like to live a good part of my life that way. You know, I just feel. I definitely feel like almost a longing for that.

A (52:20)

Yeah. Because you talked earlier about a longing for paradise.

B (52:23)

Yeah.

A (52:23)

Is that your paradise, then?

B (52:25)

I don't think it. I mean, because I love this. I also love the English countryside. I like. You know, I love the two, and I love the city, which is another thing. But I think there's a part of that picture of paradise for me is kind of lack of technology. I know is. You know, but just all of the noise and the distraction, that's what gets to me. So the idea of just having a simple life, I really long for that. But I also love the comfort of technology and, you know, so I think having a bit of all of it would be really nice, but definitely for a substantial chunk, I would really like to just experience living a very grounded, kind of rural kind of life.

A (53:15)

Does technology really dominate your life, then?

B (53:18)

Well, I try not to let it dominate my life. Like, I like to kind of not be on my phone too much. You know, I just sometimes feel quite. I've definitely felt quite trapped at times. And not even technology, but the idea that we live in, you know, boxes, even that kind of thing sometimes just stresses me out.

A (53:36)

What do you mean by that?

B (53:37)

I mean, like, because I'd love to be living out there in nature. Yeah. Sometimes I'm just like, this feels really unnatural to be confined. And to be honest, being in the garden a lot. Like, it helps me to feel like this is. This is fine because I'm out there a lot, especially in the summer. But, yeah, I just. I really, really long to be in nature more.

A (53:58)

I think it's really interesting because we talked. We talked about belonging and about your slightly fractured sense of belonging from your upbringing. But what you're describing in your ideal future is actually reconnecting with those different geographies.

B (54:13)

Yeah.

A (54:13)

Which I think is so telling.

B (54:15)

Yeah.

A (54:16)

So it seems to me that, yeah, if you can find a way to reconnect with East Africa a bit more, that would probably be good for you, wouldn't it?

B (54:22)

Yeah, I would love that. And I think maybe now is the time, you know, maybe now is the time, which is nice. Like it's been a long, you know, my sister's been all around Africa, to be honest with her job took her there. But the way my life panned out is I've basically been London based. But as my kids are growing up a bit, it feels like that season is kind of not of the kids. I mean it's a long season with kids, but that kind of young babyhood season, I feel like I'm leaving that behind. And so there's a bit more independence that I've got now potentially to now do just be move a bit wider, you know.

A (55:02)

Awesome. Thanks so much, Laquina.

B (55:04)

Thank you.

A (55:04)

I really enjoyed that.

B (55:05)

Thank you.

A (55:06)

Really enjoyed getting to know you better. And yeah, thanks for inviting us into your home.

B (55:10)

Thank you. Thanks a lot.

A (55:15)

Thanks very much for listening as always. Some very exciting plans are afoot with this podcast and we've got loads of great episodes coming up very soon. So if you're not already subscribed to the show, don't forget to do that and we'll start lobbing lots of new content in your direction very, very soon. This episode will was produced by Laconic Collective with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks very much again and talk to you on the next one. Bye for now. Hi, this is Kim and Penn Holderness from the Laugh Lines podcast. Boost Mobile offers the same nationwide coverage, network speed and service consumers are used to, but at more affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. While other carriers blow millions on super bowl ads, we put that money to work for you. Delivering reliable 99% nationwide coverage at affordable prices. Start saving on wireless today with Boost Mobile's Unlimited plans. Starting at just $25 a month, the Boost Mobile network, together with their roaming partners, cover 99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store. Find us online@boost mobile.com Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.

B (56:51)

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