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- [00:07]
Skye Gingell
I've always been really interested in the power of food and, like people eating and sitting together. I think it's the power of breaking bread. It's community, isn't it? It's like sitting together as two human beings, and I think that is incredibly powerful.
- [00:29]
Matt Gibbard
Hi there. Welcome to Homing in, the podcast that explores the meaning of home in people's lives. My name is Matt Gibbard, co founder of the Modern House and Inigo. For this episode, I've come to meet up with one of my food heroes, Sky Gingell, at her house in West London. I first became aware of Skye's cooking probably about 15 years ago or so when I visited the cafe at Petersham Nurseries in Richmond. I couldn't quite believe that such elegant food could come out of a tin shed in the garden center. And nor could anybody else, it seems, because it ended up earning her a Michelin star. Nowadays, she has her beautiful restaurant Spring at Somerset House in London, of course, and she's also the culinary director of Heckfield Place, which is an acclaimed hotel in Hampshire. Skive's life story is really fascinating. Her father, Bruce, was the first man on Australian tv and he met her mother on a game show. Believe it or not. She feels that she was born into the wrong country and potentially even the wrong family as well. And she's been much happier after settling into the culture and the softer light of Europe. Sky is a very, very warm, open, lovely person and we talk about all sorts of things, including what it's like being a mother to grown up kids, why she's currently single, her favourite things to eat at home, and all sorts of other things as well. I'm really excited to share this one and I very much hope you enjoy it. Sky, I want to start at the beginning.
- [01:57]
Skye Gingell
Yes.
- [01:58]
Matt Gibbard
Because you're so your home from the past, you've chosen to talk about the house you grew up in, which sounds pretty out there. So tell me about it, where was it?
- [02:06]
Skye Gingell
So I grew up in Sydney.
- [02:08]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [02:09]
Skye Gingell
And it was the first house that my parents, when they were young, they wanted to buy a house, but the only thing that they could actually afford was literally a cliff face in the eastern suburbs. So it literally was a piece of sandstone cliff that just went straight up. And so they built this house and my mother was really interested in design. She worked for a very famous interior decorator called Marion Hall Best in Australia. So she worked with a young architect called Bill Lucas, who was quite a kind of radical sort of thinking architect. And it was literally like a Tree house. And as a child, it was incredibly exciting to live in because it was. They sort of suspended this kind of like. It was tiny. I mean, it felt big when I was little, but I know when I go. Sometimes I drive past it. If I go back to Sydney, it would have been absolutely minute. Like a little terrace house just perched on stilts. We had a kind of little way. You park the car underneath, and then you'd climb up these sandstone steps in this kind of like. Felt like a jungle because you were completely surrounded by these wharf wood slats. And we had this little garden that would have been, honestly, the size of a postage stamp. It must have been a little bit of rock face that they'd reclaimed for this little tiny garden. Garden. And it was really. It was beautiful. It was all it would have been in the 60s. And we had all kind of. All the floors were sort of dark green concrete with sort of the brass wow in the middle.
- [03:28]
Matt Gibbard
Really?
- [03:29]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. And it was all a kind of exposed brick and very modern. Like, my mother loves modernity, and so we grew up with a lot of kind of, like. I suppose now looking back, they're kind of key, iconic pieces of, you know, a lot of tulip chairs and Saarinen tables and Noguchi lights and. But that was very much my mother's aesthetic.
- [03:51]
Matt Gibbard
Okay. Have you inherited that as well?
- [03:53]
Skye Gingell
Bits and pieces. Like, I feel like when I grew up, my mother had such a strong image of what a house was like. Sometimes that felt a bit intimidating to kind of find your own. My sister's also an interior designer, so sometimes I find it very hard to voice. I. I don't feel confident in that arena sort of thing. I don't feel like they sort of would look at me as, like, oh, no, not that color. They probably don't, but I feel that.
- [04:18]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [04:18]
Skye Gingell
But they feel kind of a little bit intimidated sometimes when I talk about food, so.
- [04:22]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And your place in Sydney, was it by the coast or.
- [04:27]
Skye Gingell
It was an area called Walara. So it's in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, and it wasn't on the beach, but you're never very far. There's probably 33 beaches in Sydney itself. So most of the time, you're never more than about 15 minutes from a beach.
- [04:42]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. And do you still feel that connection to the sea somehow? Do you have that?
- [04:46]
Skye Gingell
I feel like. I feel really. I definitely feel if you grow up in. So, for example, I couldn't live in Australia, and I still think of it as home in many ways. I love it. I get very excited to go. The first and second week, I love. By the third week, it's like, please get me out of here.
- [05:03]
Matt Gibbard
Why?
- [05:04]
Skye Gingell
I. I feel like I probably didn't. All my adult growing up was done outside of Australia, so maybe I just regressed to who I was then and I can't kind of break that. But I don't know, I just. I feel. I've always felt much more comfortable in Europe. When I was born, I thought I was born into the wrong country. I literally did. Slightly the wrong family, too, but, like, also the wrong country. I just thought it was so bright and harsh. So when I came to Europe and it was all kind of soft focus, I just really.
- [05:38]
Matt Gibbard
That's interesting. Why is that, then?
- [05:40]
Skye Gingell
I don't know. I think I've definitely spoken to people who feel the same.
- [05:45]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [05:46]
Skye Gingell
But going back to the question of do I miss the sea? I think there is something in your DNA when you grow up with that huge sky. Like, I think that would be the thing more than anything. I think if you grew up in Africa, it was probably the same. I've definitely spoken to people from Africa who. The kind of sea, the big, harsh landscapes, and I do think they get into your DNA and you do yearn for them.
- [06:08]
Matt Gibbard
Okay, so you said something really interesting there, which is that you slightly feel like you were born into the wrong family. And I know you're saying that in a witty way, but in a sort of serious way. What is it about your upbringing that makes you feel that?
- [06:22]
Skye Gingell
I just think I was very different from everyone in my family, you know, And I think that I probably was actually quieter. Australians are very, like. I don't. I mean, obviously I can't paint a picture of every Australian being the same, but there's a. There's a kind of brashness. There's a sort of loudness that I actually just found a little bit. Like, I wanted just to turn down the volume on everybody.
- [06:50]
Matt Gibbard
So what were you like as a child? If we could look down on you, were you very quiet?
- [06:55]
Skye Gingell
I think I probably was quite quiet. Yeah. But I think it could have come across as being quite cold.
- [07:01]
Matt Gibbard
Right. So you were slightly remote somehow.
- [07:04]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [07:05]
Matt Gibbard
Why was that? Were you in your own head?
- [07:07]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, I think I was probably quite busy protecting myself from all the noise.
- [07:11]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Right.
- [07:13]
Skye Gingell
I mean, it's really interesting because I have. My youngest daughter has a very similar way. I need a lot of downtime. I need a lot of quiet. And the noises can get very loud. The external noises can get very loud. For me. And I find it actually quite confusing when that happens and I can see it in my youngest daughter. She's very similar to me.
- [07:33]
Matt Gibbard
So you're an introvert essentially, is what you're saying.
- [07:36]
Skye Gingell
I don't know, I don't feel I could. I find it's funny, all those kind of labels, isn't it? Because I'm also. I do love people and I'm really happy to chat with you now, you know. Well, I don't like parties or.
- [07:49]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, I think I'd probably put myself in the same bucket. And I think the reason I ask you if you're an introvert is my definition of that. And I agree the label seems tricky, but my definition of it versus an extrovert might be that you, you find your energy by. By pulling yourself away and being in your own space for a bit.
- [08:11]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [08:12]
Matt Gibbard
Whereas I think if you're an extrovert, you find your energy by being with other people. And it's not say that you don't do both, but I think you described yourself as someone that needs that mental downtime and that's really interesting. So, I mean, as a child in that house, if you look at yourself, were you happy there or what do you think was the emotion?
- [08:39]
Skye Gingell
I feel, if I'm very honest, I've had my life probably in two parts and the second part has been much happier for me than the first part. I just felt like I didn't. It's taken me a long time to be the person that I am and feel happy with it. Often if I feel about my childhood, the physical thing I would do is put my hands over my ears.
- [09:01]
Matt Gibbard
Right.
- [09:02]
Skye Gingell
Because obviously there was huge moments of fun and happiness and I had amazing friendships. But I feel much more settled in the second half of my life.
- [09:13]
Matt Gibbard
I wonder if it sounds like maybe you're quite a sensitive spirit in an environment that maybe didn't quite cater to that or understand it. Possibly.
- [09:22]
Skye Gingell
Maybe. Yeah.
- [09:23]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. So tell me about your parents because your dad was quite character. He's got a Wikipedia page which is fascinating, but tell me about him.
- [09:32]
Skye Gingell
He was like a huge extrovert, like probably a real show off, actually self made was the first man on Australian television. So he met my mum through running a game show called Name that Tune. But he, he was the man who said, good evening and welcome to television. And so cool. It's weird and it broadcast from a church hall in Sydney in 1950 something. And I often think about, you know, all of this kind of like tech and how exciting all of that must have been. He was never in the house. And so he was very kind of like flamboyant and probably narcissistic, but affectionate and mercurial, you know. And my mom had been raised in Shanghai and they were evacuated and so she came to Australia as a refugee with a single mom. And she was quite. My mother's got a huge internal mind too. So, like, when you see her, like I imagine her head is like this incredible magic box, you know, full of like the most amazing and interesting and wild things. But she's very conservative on the outside.
- [10:46]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [10:47]
Skye Gingell
So Sydney was incredibly small and it was in the kind of 70s and everybody knew what everybody else was doing. It was like real Leave it to Beaver, you know, you get on the school bus and someone would report you from not having a 1 inch blue ribbon on your ponytail. You know, everybody seemed to know everybody's business and that I didn't like too, because my. Everyone knew who my father was and, you know, he was so flamboyant, he'd send chauffeur driven cars to pick us up from school. And it was just embarrassing. People would say to me all the time, I saw your father on television last night. And I was like, that is not my father, that is my uncle.
- [11:23]
Matt Gibbard
Did you really?
- [11:24]
Skye Gingell
I couldn't bear it. Yeah, I mean, it was just like embarrassing for me, you know, and. Yeah, so, I mean, I knew as soon as the day I left school that I was getting on a plane and I wasn't, I was leaving Australia and I did that. I left at 18 and I've never lived there again.
- [11:39]
Matt Gibbard
How did your mum feel about it all?
- [11:43]
Skye Gingell
I don't. I don't know. I think it was. I mean, they were married for 30 years. They didn't. They ended up divorcing when we were kind of in our 20s. And I would imagine now they wouldn't have stayed married nearly as long as they did. I think it was very different time. They're very different characters. And I think my father probably thought that mum was good wife material. Yeah, I think he probably thought, oh, she'll look great. You know, they got married, you know, and that really. I think they were engaged after three weeks and married after three months. It was one of those kind of things.
- [12:17]
Matt Gibbard
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
- [12:19]
Skye Gingell
Very 1950s. Like. Yeah, colonial, you know, like outposts, sort of. It was very like. Australia was very middle class and very uptight.
- [12:29]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [12:30]
Skye Gingell
Everything was about manners, table manners. You couldn't blink without having your manners. Like, you know, like Take your elbows off the table, sit up straight, pull your chair in. I mean, that was. That was dinner with Mum, and that was, like, exhausting.
- [12:43]
Matt Gibbard
Are you not like that with your kids?
- [12:45]
Skye Gingell
I do actually think that manners are incredibly important. Like, I think to be gracious and kind and say thank you and please is really lovely, you know, But I'm not. I'm. I wasn't.
- [12:58]
Matt Gibbard
No, not formal in that same way.
- [13:00]
Skye Gingell
No.
- [13:00]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [13:01]
Skye Gingell
No.
- [13:02]
Matt Gibbard
So. And was food a part of your childhood? Where did food come in?
- [13:06]
Skye Gingell
So Mum wasn't a great cook. Like, she wasn't. She wasn't a terrible cook. And I think she probably cooks like most people cooked, where you probably have a repertoire of five or six things. So it's, you know, roast chicken and mashed potato and broccoli. One night she did a kind of beef stroganoff, you know.
- [13:22]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [13:22]
Skye Gingell
And I actually, to be really honest with you, it's not a dissimilar way to the way I Anyone runs a house, in a way. You know what I mean? And, like, you probably do to some extent. Yeah.
- [13:32]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [13:32]
Skye Gingell
But when my. My father had this sort of real midlife crisis, sort of 42, 43, he went to visit this man called Misho Kushi, who was the head of the macro. Like, he was the kind of founder of the macrobiotic movement with a guy called George Asawa. And dad became macrobiotic overnight and actually stayed macrobiotic till he died. But that was quite weird because it happened when we were probably all about 11 or 12, and all of a sudden the whole household changed and we were eating agar, agar and porridge with umaboshi plums.
- [14:07]
Matt Gibbard
So, to the uninitiated, what does macrobiotic mean in reality?
- [14:10]
Skye Gingell
So macrobiotic is a traditional Japanese way of eating, really, where you eat within a 500 square square mile radius. I happen to agree with that. It's really interesting the things that have influenced me from it. It's basically 60% grain intake, very little proteins or fats. It's a very simple way of eating. It's almost eating like a bowl of rice and salty and fermented things. But it was very much. It was quite jarring and quite. You can only imagine having kids as early teens, and all of a sudden you come home and it's like, no, no, there's no more lime cordial, no chicken. Yeah, here's an umaboshi plum and some miso for your breakfast. And you're like, what? And not only that, he moved a yoga teacher into our house and he moved a Macrobiotic chef into our house.
- [14:59]
Matt Gibbard
No way.
- [15:00]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. So obviously we then developed this huge kind of like sneaky, you know, after life where we were stuffing our face with finger buns and you know, jelly snakes and like penny sweets and things from the touch shop. But it was, that was actually, I think that was probably the end of. Beginning of the end of my parents marriage.
- [15:20]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, okay. Because it was so extreme.
- [15:22]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. And then dad would come. I mean, he was such a cliche, my dad. He became such a sort of like midlife crisis, you know, I mean, he didn't buy a sort of, you know, Ferrari and stuff, but he'd go to ashrams in India and he met with the Dalai Lama and ate. D was going through a stage of eating ground diamonds for something. I mean, it was just like completely. He did est and every single. Every workshop. I mean it was, it was very 1970s.
- [15:48]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [15:48]
Skye Gingell
We'd come home and there'd be Hare Krishna sitting in our sitting room chanting. When he came home from school, it was literally like that. And my mother was just not having that. You know, Mum was sort of still standing there, you know, with her nice little lace up brogues on or whatever she was. She couldn't cope with it at all.
- [16:06]
Matt Gibbard
Wow. So interesting. So you went to Paris, is that right?
- [16:11]
Skye Gingell
I did.
- [16:12]
Matt Gibbard
How did it come about? You sort of escaped.
- [16:14]
Skye Gingell
I was about to start. I started a law degree in Sydney, but it only lasted about three or four months. And when I did that, I got a job washing up in a restaurant. And that's when I fell in love with cooking. I feel very lucky because it was owned by a woman called Leila Sophie. And she, she was just really kind to me and I loved it. I loved being in that kitchen. And she trained in Paris and she came back and she was making puff pastry and pure stocks. And it was very, very technique driven. And she would just say to me all the time, do you want to come over here? I'm just making a mayonnaise now. And gradually I came out of washing up and I came into the kitchen and I just really loved it.
- [16:56]
Matt Gibbard
Okay, and so where did you go next from there?
- [16:59]
Skye Gingell
So then I went to Paris. So I actually went to a school there called La Veren, which is a cookery school that doesn't exist anymore. So I did the course there and then I worked in like restaurants in Paris and I had an amazing time. And there was like seven of us in like three rooms. We went out all night every night. And you know, Paris, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be that age in Paris now. But, you know, you'd eat. You could eat oysters at 6 in the morning. And there was some amazing clubs like Bandouche and we just had such a blast in Paris. And I went to cookery school every day. I don't know how I did that. I mean, I could never, you know that weird thing, how do you stay up all night and then go to cookery school? But somehow I did and I loved it. And then from there I actually moved to London. The first job I got was at the Dorchester Hotel under Anton Mossiman. Yeah, quite a famous chef, like in the 80s. And I absolutely hated it. And I thought, what the hell. Because, you know, I'd worked Layla's. It was beautiful and it was all light filled and she was a woman and she cooked like from her heart and everything. And all of a sudden I was in a kitchen with like 170 people, strip lighting. I mean, the Dorchester Hotel, and it still does because I was there not that long ago, has an escalator in the kitchen. The kitchen so big, it's over all these floors. Yeah. And I just. You go in the morning and it was dark and you come out at night and it was dark and I was just like, oh, this is. I thought cooking was like, yeah, this is not, you know. And then I worked in quite a lot of other restaurants. Then I came out and I did teaching and cooking and catering. And then in 2004, I. I knew Galen, Francesco Buglioni, who own Petersham Nurseries, and they asked me to come and see for some consultancy. I'd do a bit of consultancy and it was just like. It was all cement all over the floor and it was just like a classic little garden center. It could have looked like home base. I could, I thought, oh my God, I could see you could do a restaurant here and it would be amazing. There's about three or four times in my life when I just see like something like a movie really clearly. And I saw that it was almost like you just see the future. There was a little kind of wooden hut just tacked onto the back of the wall and we just put a stove in there and we just cooked. We had a blackboard. We only had three dishes. That's all we could do. I thought I'd be there for two months or something and then no one would come and we'd close it down and I'd go back to.
- [19:14]
Matt Gibbard
And what did you think that you were trying to achieve with doing it.
- [19:17]
Skye Gingell
I just wanted to cook really simple food in a setting that felt really beautiful. I've always been really interested in the power of food and, like, people eating and sitting together.
- [19:30]
Matt Gibbard
What is that power? How do you describe that?
- [19:33]
Skye Gingell
I think it's the power of breaking bread. It's community, isn't it? It's like it's sitting together as two human beings, and I think that is incredibly powerful.
- [19:44]
Matt Gibbard
But it's not just the food, is it? I mean, I think, you know, when I first went to Pesh and Nurseries all those years ago, I couldn't really quite believe it. And I think a lot of people felt that as well, because the food was obviously very beautiful, but the surroundings were as well. And it's that combination, isn't it?
- [20:00]
Skye Gingell
I mean, food is one very small element of a memorable meal. You know, all the meals like that I can remember that, like, hold a special place for me, have nothing to do with Michelin or fancy pants cooking. It's all to do with who I'm there with. I can remember the weather, I can remember the table. But mainly I can remember happy meals are the people who are at the table with me. So I also really strongly believe that, and I say it at work all the time. If I had two restaurants, one had the best food in the world, but I walked in and everyone was snooty to me, and I felt a little bit inadequate. And you made a wine choice and people looked at you like, you know, like, it doesn't matter how good the food is. Like, I'm not going back. But if I walk into a restaurant, the food's okay, but it's not amazing. But I walk in and they're like, you know, I feel welcomed and loved. I'm gonna go back to that restaurant a million times, you know, so, like, it's. The whole thing is incredibly important, you know? And I think Petersham just hit that. I mean, it was very heartfelt. Petersham. We had no game plan at all.
- [21:09]
Matt Gibbard
Well, people pick up on that authenticity, don't they?
- [21:12]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [21:12]
Matt Gibbard
What was the kind of direction of the food? How did you go about creating the menu?
- [21:17]
Skye Gingell
There's nothing I cook that I wouldn't eat. I mean, I probably shove my taste on everybody the whole time, and we want it.
- [21:23]
Matt Gibbard
That's what we like.
- [21:24]
Skye Gingell
I love food that you can drag your bread through. I love food that's got maximum flavor. I love food that looks beautiful. I could feel like you eat with your eyes. I like clean, ripe, sharp flavors. And we had no Room at Petersham. I mean we had a bench like that, you know, literally.
- [21:41]
Matt Gibbard
What was that like as an environment?
- [21:43]
Skye Gingell
Heaven.
- [21:43]
Matt Gibbard
Heaven, yeah.
- [21:44]
Skye Gingell
For me, the only slight thing I would say that I feel, I used to feel at Petersham because we had these stable doors that were open and everyone would come up and talk to us.
- [21:54]
Matt Gibbard
Right. I do remember that.
- [21:56]
Skye Gingell
And at one point I actually put a sign on the thing, do not feed the animals. No, it was like, please don't talk to the chef. Which was like, don't feed the animals.
- [22:05]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [22:06]
Skye Gingell
You know, people would come, where's the bathroom? It's like we're cooking for 140 people. Like, are you kidding me? And you know, I mean, it's like this huge jigsaw puzzle of timings and priorities and tables and deadlines and it goes up and down on a board like mad.
- [22:24]
Matt Gibbard
Okay, so, yeah, so stopping for a selfie isn't probably on the agenda.
- [22:27]
Skye Gingell
It's like not for me.
- [22:29]
Matt Gibbard
So I mean, what's absolutely mind boggling really is you had this little very much. You described cottage industry and yet you did get given a Michelin star. Yeah, I mean in many ways your food is sort of the diametric opposite of that whole thing. But what did you think about that kind of validation at the time, the Michelin thing?
- [22:48]
Skye Gingell
I'm going to be really. I trained in Paris and I worked in Paris for two and a half years. Like, you know, it was like the ultimate thing, a Michelin star, you know. And so when I got it, I was like, I couldn't, like I literally rang my mom at three in the morning. Like I woke her up, mom. You know, I was like, I couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it. I was so excited. I was so proud of everyone. It's kind of amazing and. But afterwards it became very painful because there's expectations from get diners a lot of the time that you are a Michelin star. And then we'd get all these letters all the time saying, call yourself a Michelin starred restaurant. Like almost, you should be ashamed of yourself. And so it sucked a lot of the joy for me out of it. And I think I did say to one journalist, I said, like, it's amazing but sometimes it feels like a curse. I think Michelin too, if I'm being really honest, I don't think that Petersham would have got a Michelin star now. I think it got it because I think Michelin was desperately trying to change.
- [23:43]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, okay, so you were representative of something.
- [23:45]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, a change in Michelin that's interesting. I think they realized that they couldn't define it so narrowly which it had been, you know, and you had to expand to kind of more like a much more diverse idea of great or good.
- [24:07]
Matt Gibbard
Just a quick aside, I wanted to tell you briefly about my day job. So I'm the co founder of a pair of design led estate agencies, one called the Modern House and the other called Inigo. The Modern House is dedicated, dedicated to the best examples of modernist and contemporary architecture. And Inigo on the other hand represents pre modern housing. So everything from a Victorian workers cottage in town to a Georgian rectory in the country. The idea is that via those two platforms we are able to provide a pre filtered selection of the most beautiful and well designed homes for sale in the UK at any1 time. Alongside the sales listings there's all sorts of inspirational content as well. So there's house tours of amazing spaces, area gu exhibition guides, cultural recommendations and things like that. So if you're looking to buy or sell a place or you want some inspiration for your own home, do take a Look at our two websites, TheModernHouse.com and Inigo.com right back to the podcast. Can I talk to you about ingredients because obviously that's a huge thing. Where do you tend to get your ingredients from and how does that work?
- [25:17]
Skye Gingell
So at Hetfield we have a 460 acre estate so we grow most of our fruit and vegetables. And then at Spring I work with a woman called Jane Scotter who's a grower and she has a farm called Fern Farrow in the Black Mountains of Herefordshire. And we've had a relationship for eight years and she grows for us so we do all the planting lists and then I take, I mean from mostly everything else is from small organic farms or small fishermen in, in Cornwall we just take fish from British waters. I don't do that kind of just British thing because I think I would lose on out on so much. I love some French and Italian cheeses and stuff but we try to keep it small and we go to producers who like focus on what they do as almost artists, you know is particularly good at. They do, yeah.
- [26:09]
Matt Gibbard
I came to a lovely talk that you did with Jane from Fern Barrow a while back at the yard and it was really nice because you talked about how her produce is so beautiful that she gives it to you and immediately that kind of sparks your imagination. So it seems to me that you often start with that thing, often that vegetable and sort of work from there.
- [26:30]
Skye Gingell
I mean I definitely see it as a palette, if I was an artist. So we are huge kindreds, spirits, Jane and I. And, like, we've developed this really over the years, like, the most amazing relationship, which is, like, we're 100% there for each other. I would throw myself in front of a moving bus to make sure that farm survives and thrives, and she will move heaven and earth to give me the most beautiful produce. And so it's a really lovely, like, unexpected relationship that's come into my life. Like, at the moment she's grown, she's got these little quinces like her, about. Only about 2 inches high. I've just got these amazing quince, and I just think somehow they'd be perfect on the cheese plate for you. And then I'd go away, and I think I'll think about it. I think, oh, I'm going to cook them in a sugar syrup, then I'm going to dehydrate them so they'll get really fudgy and wrinkly. And then I'm going to rehydrate them in, like, another kind of syrup, and then we're going to just put them whole on the cheese plate. But it's like, I would never have done that if Jane hadn't have spotted the quince. So it's an incredibly, like, oh, it's just an amazing relationship.
- [27:32]
Matt Gibbard
It's wonderful. Yeah. Tell us about your scratch menu at spring, because that's. That really captures people.
- [27:38]
Skye Gingell
I think Scratch came about because I realized I looked into food waste and that just a third of all food grown on the planet never gets eaten or reaches a shop shelf, you know, and then I met a friend, and it's called scratch because I've got this Australian friend. And I was like, I think I'm going to do a menu that's just based on food waste. Like the stems of cauliflower, the outer leaves, or all the things that you just throw, throw, throw without even thinking. And she said to me, oh, that's like, scratch. And she said, you know when you root around back at the, you know, fridge on a Sunday night? And I was like, okay, I've never met another Australian who ever knows what the term scratch means. But, like, Trish was completely sure that it was like a kind of throne together.
- [28:20]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [28:21]
Skye Gingell
And I thought, oh, that sounds cute. It brings in a lot of kind of people who otherwise maybe wouldn't eat there, which is really nice. So, because it's three courses for £25, and I actually think that's amazing value. Like, I Don't think you could eat a Pixar Express for 25 quid, you know?
- [28:36]
Matt Gibbard
No, it is for that quality of cooking.
- [28:37]
Skye Gingell
It's incredible.
- [28:38]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [28:38]
Skye Gingell
So it's really nice.
- [28:39]
Matt Gibbard
And just before we move on to talking about your current home, the environment at Spring, we've touched on this already, but the dining room, the Bellini cab chairs that you have, the overall experience, I think is such an aesthetic one as well. Talk to me about that. Why do you think that's all important in this whole mix?
- [28:57]
Skye Gingell
Okay. So when I left Petersham, I felt like everyone said, oh, my God, you're at Petersham Nurseries. There'd be this kind of awe. So I thought, oh, God, I've had this really beautiful restaurant. Like, I can't be the person who was like, oh, that was Sky. She used to have that really beautiful restaurant, you know, and now she's like, in the west, you know, I wanted to do something really different, so I thought, like. And actually the aesthetic of Petersham, I love, but I'm not shabby. You know, when people use the term, it shabby chic. That's how everyone would describe it. It's like, I don't actually do shabby. Like, I'm a Virgo, I like quite clean things. You know what I mean? And anyway, so I thought, I have to do a beautiful restaurant, but it has to be completely different. And then I wanted to. I think you could have easily gone with Spring into super clubby, West End male vibe. No, but you know what I mean.
- [29:39]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Bit of leatherette.
- [29:41]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, Yeah. A bit kind of Balthazar, like male, you know, smoky, clubby, you know, And I wanted to do something very light and female.
- [29:51]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [29:52]
Skye Gingell
I wanted it to be like a watercolor. That was what was in my mind, like. Like washed out. I wanted it to be feminine, but not cutesy. Or, you know, because I adore pink, for example, and all those. You know, we've got those pink sofas and stuff. But I don't think it's girly or.
- [30:13]
Matt Gibbard
It's not. No, it doesn't feel girly. Yeah, it doesn't feel girly. It feels like at the restaurant of someone who cares about aesthetics, which is not always the case, actually. Ye.
- [30:24]
Skye Gingell
A whole. It's an experiential thing from the minute you walk through the door, you know. You know, I always say to everyone at reception, when you walk in the door, our job is, when you come in, whoever you may be, is like, we have been waiting for just you all day. You know what I mean? Like, that's really nice. Yeah, you've got to make people feel good, you know, and that's a real, like. That's a real gift to be able to do. I think, you know, it's so nice to make people feel a little bit better. And I think that's what restaurants for me are anyway, you know, I can.
- [30:55]
Matt Gibbard
Vouch for that because it wasn't long ago and I don't think I've ever done this before, but I had both lunch and dinner at Spring. I know some friends invited us for dinner and then we ended up going there for a work lunch to celebrate something on the same day. I was like, great. And you know, we had quite a big table for lunch. I was pretty peripheral to the whole thing. Went out, did, you know, had a couple of hours out and about came back for my dinner, which was a much more intimate thing, just four of us friends. Anyway, the waiter immediately recognized me and said, welcome back, you know, how come you're back? And then kind of engaged with me about it. And that was really nice because I didn't expect it, you know, And I think in a lot of places it would have been a much more hands off, slightly clinical experience. It's a small thing, but it kind of matters.
- [31:45]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, totally. And it's huge for us. You know, I still. I'm going to be really honest with you. Like, I still sometimes when I look at the booking sheet and I go, oh, my God, people are actually coming to eat with us.
- [31:54]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:55]
Skye Gingell
I can't quite believe. I mean, for years in this house, actually, and this was the first house I ever bought myself, you know, every time I put the key in the lock, it's like, I've got a house. I couldn't. I'm always quite sort of shocked. So I still get like. I'm still incredibly touched that people would choose to come and eat with us.
- [32:13]
Matt Gibbard
Let's talk about your current home. Yes, we're in it. Yes, we're in Shepherd's Bush. You are in London. How long have you been here for?
- [32:20]
Skye Gingell
I think I've been here for about maybe 14 years, maybe 12 years.
- [32:26]
Matt Gibbard
So what was it like when you bought it? Because it's basically a Victorian terraced house.
- [32:29]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [32:30]
Matt Gibbard
What was it like?
- [32:31]
Skye Gingell
I looked for ages because I actually separated from my younger daughter's father and we'd been in Shepherd's Bush for ages and I kind of wanted to stay here because I guess the fabric of the kids lives were really here and lots of their friends, you know. But I looked for ages. And then this house. We saw this house and it was completely untouched, actually. It had an outside loo. Just on here was just like this little lean to. That was like a really 1970s kitchen. And it had no central heating. It had nothing. It was. When I came, my bedroom upstairs was. Must have been where he slept and he. All his things were here. I think he'd lived here for like 40 years and had actually gone to. I think he'd gone to hospital and never come back sort of thing. It's actually dent in his sort of bed. And I remember bringing the kids here and they were like, we're not coming with you. Like, that's just the worst house we've ever. It's just so, like, they literally burst into tears. But they gave me so many things. They said if I moved to Acton, then they wouldn't come with me as well. Like, they would. They're not going to Acton. Forget about it. Like, you could go on your own. I mean, despite the fact that they were sort of 10 and something. So they had to come with me. And we ended up buying it. And, you know, in the beginning it was like, okay, it's only two bedrooms, but I need three bedrooms. But as soon as I started work on it, the whole back fell down, so I sort of had to build it back. But I think I did everything with the least amount of money, you know, had a small budget that I had to stick to. And so it's kind of evolved over the years. It's had kind of a few different incarnations, really.
- [33:58]
Matt Gibbard
So you got the kitchen at the front in the Victorian bay window, which is really nice. And what struck me when I came in is you squeezed an island in, but very narrow island.
- [34:07]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [34:07]
Matt Gibbard
So actually, you've made a huge amount out of quite a narrow, small space.
- [34:11]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. Well, I think in terms of a kitchen, you, ideally, I think you either want to cook all on one line or you want a triangle. But you don't really want, you know, your fridge over here and your stove way over. You know, you kind of. There's a kind of ergonomics to have. You know, I think kitchens work. And it does work. I mean, to be honest, I don't cook a lot.
- [34:33]
Matt Gibbard
Do you know?
- [34:34]
Skye Gingell
No, I mean, because I'm around food, like, for 12 hours a day, and like, I very often eat, like, family meal at work and the kids aren't here anymore, so, like, it's had a lot of cooking over the years, but. But I'm actually, I'm not a Homebody.
- [34:50]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [34:51]
Skye Gingell
So, like, I never understand people who stay in a house all day. I would go mad. So I leave that house at 8 in the morning and I'd probably come back at 8 or 9 at night.
- [35:00]
Matt Gibbard
So what does the home represent for you in that case?
- [35:03]
Skye Gingell
It's definitely a retreat. Like, so when I come home, like, I'm really. I love shutting the door and it's just like, it's quiet, it's quite private. I feel like I'm not that good about having people in my house.
- [35:17]
Matt Gibbard
Sorry.
- [35:17]
Skye Gingell
No, no, no, no, not at all. But I. But I'm not, like, I don't entertain a huge amount. Yeah. I feel like my whole life is show and I see so many not on show. But, you know, in a restaurant, obviously, you see people all day, every day. And I talk and I'm with and I. And this, for me is like a jewel box that I come back to.
- [35:38]
Matt Gibbard
And.
- [35:38]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, you know, I think, like, when we're talking, really, in the beginning of the podcast about, like, the quiet, this is like, where I can be quiet, you know, And I'll come home here often at night. If I haven't eaten at work, I will come home and have dinner, but I can't eat so simply, like. Like at work. Everyone always says to me, when it's tomato season, I'm obsessed with this tomato. Either the burner rose over the Vesuvio tomato, and they're like these big, mellow, sweet, like. Like just not acidic tomatoes. And everyone says to me, what did you have for dinner last night? I go, a Vesuvio tomato. Because that's what I would literally do. I'll take rye bread. I'll take some home from work, and I'll just slice up the tomato and put some olive oil on it and salt and pepper. And I love a little splash of red wine vinegar and tomatoes. And then I would. I would eat like that, and I'll eat like that through the seasons in different ways, just incredibly simply. And. Yeah. And I suppose I've got like. So technically, my youngest daughter still lives here, but she's only at home, like, one night every two weeks.
- [36:35]
Matt Gibbard
How old is she?
- [36:35]
Skye Gingell
She's 25 and she's sort of at her boyfriend's house most of the time, but she'll tend to come home, maybe, like, dumping ground, change of clothes. Like, I don't even go to the top floor of the house because it would give me such anxiety if I saw her. Oh, my God. I couldn't see her bedroom. I don't Even know what it looks like up there. Anything could have happened. So she's kind of in and out. And I've just had my eldest daughter who lives in LA and she's been home for five weeks and she stays here when she gets home. But I do dream of them never being here again. That's why I look at howls all the time. I just want a one bedroom where they can't come to, I think.
- [37:09]
Matt Gibbard
Have you told them that?
- [37:10]
Skye Gingell
Well, we joke about it and they know, like, they know that I just don't like.
- [37:15]
Matt Gibbard
And so why is that?
- [37:16]
Skye Gingell
Because I've raised them.
- [37:18]
Matt Gibbard
I think you've had enough.
- [37:19]
Skye Gingell
I've been a parent for 32 years. Like I'm done.
- [37:22]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [37:22]
Skye Gingell
Like I love them with all my heart, but go now.
- [37:25]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [37:28]
Skye Gingell
But I think it's right. You outgrow that time.
- [37:31]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [37:31]
Skye Gingell
Like I, maybe it's not. I sound like the weirdest, coldest, like not family person and I, I like, I, I love them. They are my loves, honestly. I adore them. But I also feel like it's time. It's not. You know, I was out of home by 16, 17, as soon as I finished school. And the kids live differently now, which is lovely, but I'm not sure it's always so healthy. I see that.
- [37:56]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Skye Gingell
I don't even think they want to be here particularly, you know.
- [37:59]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. And part of being a parent actually is that sort of final piece which is sailing them off into the world, isn't it? And I guess you can't mentally park that until that's happened.
- [38:09]
Skye Gingell
I think our job is definitely to make them independent, functioning. That's our role, you know. And the other thing about kids I find amazing and I think I probably do it when I go home. I become the 16 year old. Everything my mother says irritates me in the way it did when I was 16. And my kids come home and like, they treat it like. I know that Holly's house in LA is immaculate and she comes here and it's like, oh, I'll just dump all of those things. Like my clothes are in the spare bedroom, like where she was staying, which is next to my room. I've got like a wardrobe and some clothes in there. I couldn't even enter the vicinity for five weeks. It got colder and colder. I couldn't find my jumpers, but I just couldn't go into the bedroom because it was like a fortress. I don't know what she'd done in there, you know. And there's bottles and things by the beds. And, like, it's so that, like, just. Just irritate. And they know it irritates me.
- [39:04]
Matt Gibbard
I can see that. But also, we all get used to being in our own space and our own habits, and it's. It's innately stressful to have someone else's stuff in your space, I think. Are you.
- [39:14]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [39:15]
Matt Gibbard
Would you describe yourself as a kind of neat and tidy person?
- [39:18]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [39:18]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. So. So what happens if things are out of place?
- [39:21]
Skye Gingell
I feel anxious.
- [39:22]
Matt Gibbard
You feel anxious? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:25]
Skye Gingell
I like order. Yeah. I mean, that's come as I've gotten. I was very messy, you know, I completely identify with it, you know, and, you know, the other thing they do is, like, I feel like I'm really well organized, and I have my computer charger, my bed, and my telephone, and it's all. Bets are off with your things when the kids come home. So you come home, you can't find your charger. Like, I haven't seen my charger, my computer charger for four weeks. And I know where I leave it. And we haven't touched it. I don't know, Mum. No, I did not take your charger. And it's like, you did take my charger because it's behind my bed for the last five years. I'd rather just have an adult relationship with him now.
- [40:06]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, yeah, I get that. So tell me about your aesthetic here, because it's really beautiful and actually a really nice mix, I think, between modern and traditional, I would say between kind of just the right amount of minimal and maximal together. How do you describe how you live?
- [40:25]
Skye Gingell
I. Thank you. I mean, I love things. Everything, I could tell you, everything means something to me. Like, those plates on the wall are, like. They're Japanese, but I bought them from a place called Chisan Fitzgerald in Sydney that I really love, and I always go and visit. Or those chopping boards are from Morocco. You know, I try and, like, feel like a house can be full of memories and touch points. And so I think that would be my biggest thing that I would.
- [40:51]
Matt Gibbard
Do you ever have people over for dinner?
- [40:56]
Skye Gingell
Yes, I do.
- [40:57]
Matt Gibbard
What would you make them?
- [40:58]
Skye Gingell
Okay. So it's quite stressful being a cook and having people over because people say to you, I can't have you for dinner. That's the classic thing people say to me probably, like, I can't have you in my house.
- [41:10]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [41:11]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. And. Are you kidding? Like, I just. Give me a fish finger. I'm fine. Like, I would never judge anybody else's cooking because it's What I do for a living, I mean, you know, and I'm just grateful, you know, I don't care. But I think that people are going to come to have dinner here and they'll go. I went to Sky's house for dinner. Really? Wasn't always that great. Yeah, it wasn't that great. Like, and so I feel this pressure that I have to perform and be this. Like, every meal that I would give you would be the most amazing meal. And I think that's sometimes why I don't do it as well. But in general, I'm like a big one pot person at home, and I tend to. If I'd have you for dinner, I'd probably do something like, big one pot, lots of bread, really good salads, nice cheese, some fruit. But I wouldn't have people for dinner more than six or seven times. And if I would, I'd probably have my, like, best girlfriends or, like, we're.
- [42:00]
Matt Gibbard
Not going to judge you.
- [42:01]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, yeah. I'm also not wildly social, so, like, outside of my work life, like, I have a kind of really strong network of people that have been in my life for a long time.
- [42:13]
Matt Gibbard
Do you have a partner or not?
- [42:14]
Skye Gingell
No.
- [42:15]
Matt Gibbard
Is there space for a partner?
- [42:18]
Skye Gingell
Probably not.
- [42:19]
Matt Gibbard
Do you like it like that?
- [42:21]
Skye Gingell
Well, I feel like I've analyzed myself through this podcast, actually. I think I probably, like, I don't feel lonely, and there's a part of my. I suppose my creative life is my most. It's where I get this huge, deep sense of fulfillment, and I couldn't have that interrupted, I don't think. You know, like, I mean, who wouldn't want to be in love, but, like, I don't know how easy, you know, that is, So I couldn't have just someone who was irritating in my life. Like, I just don't have space. Like, why would you be in my life? I mean, that sounds awful, doesn't it? But, like, I've got so much love in my life. Like, I don't feel deprived. Who knows? Like, I don't know, you know, really. But I. I feel like there's been so much work I've had to do on a personal level that. Yeah.
- [43:22]
Matt Gibbard
What do you mean by that?
- [43:23]
Skye Gingell
I don't know. I. I just feel like I, I. There's a lot I want to do around food and the environment. I want to do an education program. I feel like there's a lot I've got to do, and I feel like that's my purpose.
- [43:37]
Matt Gibbard
That's more important to you than the rest of it?
- [43:39]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [43:39]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [43:40]
Skye Gingell
I don't know. Like that person hasn't come along.
- [43:42]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Skye Gingell
I try to be open, like, because I know the kids, they look at me and they would love me to have a boyfriend because then they wouldn't have to worry about me.
- [43:49]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [43:50]
Skye Gingell
And I remember when my parents got divorced and it's like I used to pray, please give my mom a boyfriend. So. Because I didn't want to be responsible for her, you know, and so I. I've been married twice. It's not like I haven't, you know, I just. I don't know, I feel like I'm flying.
- [44:06]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Well, that's amazing. Do you think so you don't want someone to burst that bubble?
- [44:12]
Skye Gingell
Maybe not. Or expect things from me, if I'm truthful.
- [44:16]
Matt Gibbard
Have people maybe let you down?
- [44:24]
Skye Gingell
I think I let people down.
- [44:25]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [44:27]
Skye Gingell
In a way because I'm so focused. Work is. It's everything to me. So I. Yeah, I don't want to stop that.
- [44:37]
Matt Gibbard
So. Yeah. It would take someone incredibly kind of egoless, wouldn't it, to be able to.
- [44:42]
Skye Gingell
And someone very self sufficient.
- [44:44]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [44:45]
Skye Gingell
I'm not looking after anyone. Is that terrible? I don't.
- [44:49]
Matt Gibbard
I mean, I know it's not terrible.
- [44:51]
Skye Gingell
I mean, honestly, I'm feeling a bit guilty now. I think I feel like I sound like this horrible, weird person. But it's just like I feel so blessed. Feel like I've been given a huge purpose, you know, in that time when I worked with Leila, you know, and she come over here and we're going to make a stalk and everything. She opened up a whole world to me that I find incredibly satisfying. And maybe it is my love, you know, there's a lot of work to be done around the kind of environmental things and stuff. And I think it's very urgent. I mean, we have a very, very broken food system and I feel like I should spend the last kind of 15 years of my work life giving back on that, like mentoring. I really want to do a grower's education program. Done. So I feel there's. For me, there's a sense of urgency that I've got a lot to do in quite a short period of time. So maybe that makes me very single minded as opposed to being more open minded.
- [45:55]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, got it. So we asked you to think about your potential home of the future or your kind of dream home. What would it look like?
- [46:05]
Skye Gingell
Well, I sort of do dream about lateral living. Like I would love maybe one huge room, maybe, you know, like a multifunctional. Space then I think I couldn't be without a garden of some description. You know, sometimes I dream of retiring up the north coast of New South Wales because I think I'm scared to be old and poor and cold.
- [46:27]
Matt Gibbard
Old and cold, yeah.
- [46:28]
Skye Gingell
Yeah. So I think, oh God, maybe I could move like to a small country town, have a vegetable garden, walk the beach in the morning, you know, tend to the vegetables. It's interesting how we're going to live moving forward, isn't it? Because I definitely think the weather has changed quite dramatically. These houses, almost impossible to sleep in the top floor in the summer.
- [46:49]
Matt Gibbard
Okay.
- [46:52]
Skye Gingell
They're like hot boxes. It's interesting because I do think the weather's changed.
- [46:56]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [46:57]
Skye Gingell
And I don't think it's going back. I do wonder what we're going to do about the heat.
- [47:01]
Matt Gibbard
Yes. It's all a massive conundrum.
- [47:04]
Skye Gingell
Massive conundrum.
- [47:04]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, it is. So actually as a company, I think the modern house, we're thinking about how we can help in this area as well. It always interests me that when you buy a home you get an EPC Energy Performance Certificate and it tells you also where it could get to if you improved the energy efficiency of it. But no one actually tells you the things that you can do to affect that change. So I think that's quite an interesting task for us to try and help people with that. Maybe.
- [47:36]
Skye Gingell
Yeah, I agree. I think there's so much talk, but there's very little kind of solution, like simple information for anyone in terms of, of, you know, how maybe that you could eat more sustainably or live more sustainably for a long time. I think it, it felt a very long way away. Like I think people couldn't look at climate change because it was over there.
- [47:55]
Matt Gibbard
Yep.
- [47:56]
Skye Gingell
And now I don't think anyone could deny it anymore.
- [47:59]
Matt Gibbard
Well, that's the good thing, isn't it? So I think we've reached the point of acknowledgment.
- [48:03]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [48:03]
Matt Gibbard
Mass acknowledgement.
- [48:04]
Skye Gingell
Yeah.
- [48:04]
Matt Gibbard
And then the next stage is, you know, for mass education it's very, very.
- [48:09]
Skye Gingell
Confusing because I think there's a lot of greenwashing and co opting and I think have almost instilled fear into people around sort of food. Like, I mean, I think the thing is, I always think it doesn't matter like what you eat. Like I think the thing is ask where your food comes from. Like be curious. I think that's a really good starting point. It's really hard. I'm. You know, there's such a cost of living Crisis. And good food does cost more. And cheap food is, you know, without sounding like a cliche, costing the earth. You know, it's incredibly expensive for us to grow food so cheaply, both health wise and for the environment. Right. I mean, there's lots of things you can do, but like, there's not just one solution. And you can't really look at single use plastic without looking at fast food. You can't really look at food without looking at the environment. You know, it's like we're in a pickle. I find it very interesting. I think there's a lot of people, younger people now that I sort of. I see a lot of kids who really want to go off grid. See a lot of kids, especially among chefs, who really want to return to growing. I think that's a huge thing to grow their own food, to have a piece of land. And that gives me a lot of hope.
- [49:24]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah.
- [49:26]
Skye Gingell
You know, hopefully there's enough people who want to do things a bit differently.
- [49:30]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah. Well, like that the climate is speaking and it. The rain is sheeting down.
- [49:36]
Skye Gingell
I know. So I used to grow up with that times 500.
- [49:41]
Matt Gibbard
Yeah, that sound.
- [49:43]
Skye Gingell
How beautiful is that?
- [49:44]
Matt Gibbard
It's such a lovely sound.
- [49:45]
Skye Gingell
It's such a good sound.
- [49:47]
Matt Gibbard
Sky, thank you. Pleasure very much.
- [49:49]
Skye Gingell
You've probably been so revealing. That is my problem. I was like, oh, my God.
- [49:52]
Matt Gibbard
I really appreciate you being so honest and open.
- [49:56]
Skye Gingell
I'm sure I won't if I listen to the podcast. I'll regret it. No, thank you. Such a pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you.
- [50:04]
Matt Gibbard
Thank you. Sky, thank you so much for listening to my chat with sky today. If you enjoyed it and you haven't already done so, please do follow the show because you'll be alerted about new episodes as soon as they come out. You can check out some photographs of some of the things we talked about today on our website, which is themodernhouse.com and as always, if you can find the time to leave us a quick rating or review, that's Matt, massively appreciated because it just helps other people to find us. Thanks so much to our team at the Modern House for producing the show. Thanks to our executive producer, Kate Taylor of Feast Collective, and also to Father for making the original music. Thanks to all of you and see you next time.