Sky McAlpine (2:49)

Yes, so I was born in London and then moved to Venice when I was six years old.

Mat (2:53)

Okay, so tell me about that. I mean, do you remember much from before age 6 or so?

Sky McAlpine (2:59)

I remember bits. And I remember, you know, kind of when you look through old photo albums or photos or whatever, I think a lot of artificial memories or things that I remember because the story's been told. But I do remember kind of life in London. And I remember moving to Venice or I remember having a conversation with my mother where she said we were moving to Venice. And I do remember this. I remember asking her, oh, that's amazing. So I won't have to go to school because in my mind Venice was somewhere where we went, I guess, on holiday. And I didn't. I somehow imagined, slash hoped that there was no school in Venice. And she's like, no, you'll go to school. It's just. It will be in Venice. So I remember that.

Mat (3:38)

And what was that like then? Because you landed in a different country. I mean, you had a bit, obviously. But did you speak Italian?

Sky McAlpine (3:43)

No, I didn't speak any Italian. And my mother just sent me to the local Italian school, which was a convent right behind, if you know Venice, Santa Maria della Salute, which is that kind of incredible onion domed, massive church. And right behind there, it's actually not a school anymore. I think it's just a convent. But at the time it was an elementary convent school. So aged, I guess, 6 to 11. And I went there and by the end of the academic year, I spoke Italian. I mean, children are amazing. They're just like sponges.

Mat (4:14)

They.

Sky McAlpine (4:15)

I think because you just learned English, there's no difference, really, in a way, for a child learning any language, you just learn what's spoken around you. And the nuns were so sweet and so patient with me. And I remember also one time there was. They kept on talking about gotcha. And I wasn't sure what this word gotcha was, and I clearly had absolutely no idea. And Madre Adolfo, who is this tiny, tiny little nun, I mean, minute, about half as tall as. As I am. And you can see I'm not a very tall person. And her grabbing me and nuns were very physical compared to, I think, like how teachers are with children now in a nice way, but kind of in quite a sort of abrupt Way, grabbing me sort of by the hand and lugging me through to free to the bathroom and running the water onto her finger because gotcha means drop and putting and like pointing the kind because they didn't speak any English, pointing her, sort of jabbing her finger at me with the drop on it and being like this Cristiano Gocha, this is a drop. So I kind of remember. I remember that.

Mat (5:15)

What was school like for you then? Did you. Did you fit in okay or.

Sky McAlpine (5:18)

I fit. I did fit it. I mean, everyone was really. I must say everyone was really welcoming and really sweet and I did fit in and I made friends and those were my friends and stayed my friends. And it very quickly came to feel like home. But definitely, I find, for example, when people say, oh, do you feel more English or do you feel more Italian? I don't really feel either, I guess, fully. It's that strange thing, I think, when you're from one place and you grow up in another, what identity you kind of take on. I know that when I'm in England, I feel really un English and I feel quite Italian. And when I'm in Italy, I feel probably not quite Italian. I feel more English. It's a sort of odd sense of never fully fitting in. I think when I was younger, definitely when I was sort of a teenager, when I was that bit older, I felt quite self conscious about and kind of. And now I sort of embrace this. Quite a liberating thing because you have more homes and you're not. You don't feel like everybody else.

Mat (6:12)

So interesting way I've been writing about this because I've got a book coming out in the spring also called Homing, and one of the sections is about this idea of belonging.

Sky McAlpine (6:22)

Yes. Oh, my God. Fascinating. It's my favorite topic of content.

Mat (6:25)

I know I find it fascinating personally, so I'd love to probe this a bit more. But there's this kind of theory I have in the book that we form attachments to our primary caregiver. Clearly there's attachment theory, John Bowlby's attachment theory. But we also have something called place attachment where we attach to the physical surroundings that we're brought up in as well. And of course that can be very secure, but it can also be a bit dysfunctional depending on what our early years were like. So something quite seismic, like moving to another country at the age of six. Actually, that's very formative.

Sky McAlpine (6:58)

Yeah.

Mat (6:58)

Right. Because your sense of home has a big shift.

Sky McAlpine (7:01)

So interesting to me because I was chatting with a friend recently about a version of this. And I was saying Venice to me feels like home. And even though I was born in London and I've now lived here in the uk, probably, I mean, I know we partly live half the year in London, but we've had a home. You know, my husband and I, boys are at school here, we are here. But home for me still feels like Venice. And I think I could live here for 40, 50 years, probably, and home still feels like Venice. And I don't know if that's to do with, like, my mum's still there. So maybe if, you know, one day when my mum's not there, if that will slowly start to shift. But that's definitely. You know, when you get off a plane or you walk into a place and you have that sort of feeling that it's very hard to put a finger on. But is that kind of like home? I definitely have that there. And it's not that I'm not very happy here in London and it doesn't have a lot of homey elements, but that sort of, like you said, quite, almost childish, instinctive feeling is definitely there.

Mat (7:58)

So interesting. So am I right in saying you've spent sort of half your time in London? Half that.

Sky McAlpine (8:03)

That's what I aim to do. Some years it's. I get to do a bit more in Venice and some years less, maybe a little bit less. So, like, last year, I think, wasn't in Venice nearly as much as we normally are because I was traveling a bit more and I had various work commitments here in London. But I aim to do half and half backwards and forwards.

Mat (8:20)

So what was your childhood home in Venice like?

Sky McAlpine (8:22)

So it was a house is where my mum still lives. She's still there. And it's in a part of town called Castello, which is, you might know, is near where the Biennale events kind of all happen now, and is a little bit more kind of trendy and has a sort of slightly arty feel to it. But when I was growing up, was deemed deeply unchic part of town.

Sky McAlpine (8:49)

And it was very, very residential. So when my parents moved there, they bought these actually free, small houses, kind of not a palazzo, just sort of free, not architecturally very interesting by Venice standards houses. And they kind of knocked them together to make a sort of bigger, bigger house. And that's where I. That's where I grew up.

Mat (9:09)

Okay, and if we were to picture you roaming around in that house at a young age, what kind of character were you?

Sky McAlpine (9:18)

Oh, quite bookish.

Mat (9:19)

Right. So not so much roaming More sitting.

Sky McAlpine (9:22)

More sitting. A lot of sitting. Probably sitting. Reading a book or playing with dolls or drawing or doing something quite sort of sedentary, which is why now, because I've got two boys and they're very physical. I just. My mind is blown. I'm like, I don't understand. Can you not just sit down? But I was very bookish, and I liked being around. I was an only child, and I liked being around adults. I loved kind of. My parents would just sort of take me everywhere. So they're going out for dinner, I would go to and I would sit there and listen. And then if I got tired, I just kind of go to sleep. And so I was always. Often with them. And I didn't really like being with other. I mean, I did like other children. I had schools. I wasn't like a total Billy. No mates. But I really enjoyed the company of adults. And I felt like I related to that much better because my heart slightly sank when my parents were like, oh, we've got some friends. They're coming over with their children. I was a bit like, yeah, kind of.

Mat (10:17)

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Spending a lot of time with adults. I mean, obviously your own adult life is very much characterized by this theme of, you know, being a great sort of entertainer, having people within your home environment, creating memories in that way. Is that something that you remember a lot from growing up?

Sky McAlpine (10:35)

Absolutely. I mean, both my parents loved hosting, and our home was always just an open house and always lots of people in there. Sometimes it might be friends, or quite often because we were in Venice, it would be friends of friends of friends of friends kind of thing who would, you know, would have got in touch because they were in town, and we'd have them over for lunch or for dinner or whatever. So I kind of grew up with that. And I guess I've just tried to replicate it in my own way, in my own life, because I have such positive associations with it.

Mat (11:09)

So are you in some way conjuring up that childhood, then, do you think?

Sky McAlpine (11:14)

Aspects of it? Yeah, not all of it, because obviously our lives, the world now is a different world, and we're in London a lot, which is very different from kind of being in Venice. And I'm, I guess, my own person, and my husband is. You know, life has just moved on. But definitely aspects. The happier aspects of it. Like Christmas, for example. We always had great Christmases when I was little. And I think, consequently, I just love Christmas. And that's a really big deal to me and really Important to me to kind of make it over the top and exciting and lots of things happening around it and I think I wouldn't do that if I. And same for birthdays. I love birthdays, take birthdays really seriously. So my husband, for example, doesn't take birthdays very seriously. I mean, he knows to take mine seriously, but for his own birthday he'd much rather kind of not really do anything, you know, maybe go for dinner or have lunch, all of the four of us together or whatever, but he doesn't want a big party. Whereas I love a big birthday party and I love lots of presents and I love the cards and I love the kind of like rigmarole around birthdays. Not just mine, other people's too.

Mat (12:21)

So are you quite happy being the centre of attention in that way?

Sky McAlpine (12:25)

I don't love being the centre of attention but I love there being lots of buzz around and I love being a part of that, if that makes sense.

Mat (12:34)

It does, yeah, it does. So tell us about your father, Alistair, because I mentioned this to you when we met previously, but I used to edit his column in the World of Interiors and it was illegible. It was one of my favorite things because. Yeah, it was called the diary of a Collector and he used to fax it through on the old fax machine and it will be written in felt tip pen with not a single comma or full stock. He didn't really get punctuation. He was dyslexic.

Sky McAlpine (13:02)

Right, he was dyslexic and I remember he used to write, he'd do everything longhand, I suppose everyone kind did longhand those days. But he had these massive yellow pads which probably the yellow wouldn't have come through.

Mat (13:12)

No, it didn't come through.

Sky McAlpine (13:12)

Yellow on the facts. But he would only write on these. They were very thick paper and kind of the butter yellow of our kitchen. And he would only write with a very specific kind of pen which were these black felt tip pens. And then my mother, one year, because we're so into presents, gave him a very chic kind of pen holder so that the plasticky felt tip pen could be sort of look like. I think it was silver or something pen. And so he used that, but then it was so heavy he gave himself tennis elbow.

Mat (13:42)

Oh, really?

Sky McAlpine (13:44)

From writing with his chic pens. He had to deal with the chic pen holder.

Mat (13:48)

Oh, wow. So what are your memories of him growing up then?

Sky McAlpine (13:54)

Many. I mean, he was kind of wild and wonderful and he's a very interesting man. I think he's not really like anyone else that I've ever. That I knew. Certainly not like anyone else that I knew growing up and not like anyone that I've met since. He loved collecting.

Sky McAlpine (14:14)

And he had a kind of very interesting attention span because he'd be completely obsessed with something and then move on and kind of felt like he'd learned everything that he needed to learn about that thing, whatever that thing was.

Mat (14:30)

So the collecting was more about learning than about acquiring?

Sky McAlpine (14:33)

Yeah, I think so.

Mat (14:35)

I mean, he was one of the early collectors of Mark Rothko, wasn't he?

Sky McAlpine (14:38)

Yes, he was, but then he sold them all or gave them all away or something before Rothko really became Mark Rothko, unfortunately. But he was. He loved, he loved art. He loved. He just loved beautiful things. A very aesthetic eye. And it's quite funny because I remember growing up, um, I never. I wasn't allowed Barbies growing up because they were deemed my mother, too. Kind of just thought they were boring and aesthetically displeasing. Um, and I kind of. Plastic toys, et cetera, were pretty limited. And I remember thinking, when I'm older and I have children, I'm going to let them have all the plastic toys that they want. And I mean, I do, actually, because I'm outnumbered by my kids. But they do have plastic toys. But I, I. My instinct 100% is like, no plastic toys. You can only have pretty toys.

Mat (15:24)

Sounds familiar. It sounds familiar.

Sky McAlpine (15:26)

I've now turned into my parents.

Mat (15:29)

But your dad was a political figure as well, wasn't he? Because he was treasurer of the Conservative Party.

Sky McAlpine (15:34)

He was treasurer of a Conservative Party for, I think, 10 years or something like that. And he was a close friend of. Well, both my parents were close friends of Margaret Thatcher's.

Mat (15:43)

And did I read that you played hide and seek with Margaret Thatcher?

Sky McAlpine (15:46)

She was always really sweet to me, but. So this is one of those ones that I don't remember, but I've been told. But I took her to play hide and seek and. And then suddenly no one knew where she was. And that caused. Cause she was hiding, poor thing, but caused an element of drama, so I'm surprised it wasn't.

Mat (16:05)

The big hairdo sticking out from behind.

Sky McAlpine (16:07)

The curtain obviously hid very well. Yes, exactly.

Mat (16:11)

So, I mean, your dad, I imagine, would have been pretty busy. So was he. You know, I know you're an only child, but did you. Did he have a lot of time for that side of family life? You know, being a father, being present?

Sky McAlpine (16:25)

No, not in a traditional sense of the word. I think it was about me fitting in with him as a child or us fitting in around him to some degree, rather than him enjoying or making time for kind of traditional.

Sky McAlpine (16:46)

Father child kind of behaviors, if that makes sense.

Mat (16:50)

It does, yeah. Do you regret that?

Sky McAlpine (16:52)

No, I don't regret it because everyone gives what they have to give. And what I learned from him, all his wild and wonderful things have been kind of amazing in their own way. And my mother is the world's best mother and always been incredibly kind of loving, so I've never felt like not loved. And she, you know, gave up working roundabout when we moved to Venice or working full time roundabout when we moved to Venice and was very present parent. And I think now that I'm older and I'm a parent myself, I really see how much she kind of put to one side to prioritize that. So I think my father gave me what he had to give and I'm very grateful for it, if that makes sense.

Mat (17:36)

Yeah, it does, yeah. But being an only child, I always think this, that you're a triangle. Right. You're a three.

Sky McAlpine (17:41)

Yeah.

Mat (17:42)

So there's always an odd one out in a way, isn't there? I mean, I've noted in some relationships that sometimes the daughter or the son is slightly in the way of that relationship. Other times.

Mat (17:57)

The offspring becomes very attached to one or the other of the parents because they couple up with them in a funny sense.

Sky McAlpine (18:03)

That's so interesting. I feel like I never felt in the way. I mostly just sort of tagged along, but I quite enjoyed tagging a. Yeah. So I think maybe personality wise, it just kind of worked quite well. Like, I like being part of the dinner, you know, the big dinner or the big dinner party, whatever, and then sitting quietly and just listening to everyone else talk. That suited me quite well. So I think I was lucky in that way.

Mat (18:28)

Yeah.

Sky McAlpine (18:29)

I think maybe if my personality had been kind of more.

Sky McAlpine (18:35)

That I wanted to sort of be more part of the conversation, then maybe that would have been more challenging. I don't know.

Mat (18:43)

Yeah.

Mat (18:45)

So you also had a family home in Hampshire, didn't you, at West Green?

Sky McAlpine (18:49)

Yes, when I was very little. So when I was born. Well, kind of before my parents had it before I was born. And then when I was born, until we moved to Italy.

Mat (18:58)

Yeah. So tell us about that. Because that was bombed, wasn't it, by the ira.

Sky McAlpine (19:02)

It was. Was just before we moved to Venice. But it was a beautiful National Trust house.

Mat (19:10)

I've been there because you can go. You can.

Sky McAlpine (19:11)

You can go. Absolutely. It's open to the public. Yeah, but I haven't. Amazing garden. I mean, I haven't been back since, since, you know, I was five or six. So. But it is, it's a beautiful house and the garden's really beautiful as well. So it was kind of a different chapter in my life.

Mat (19:30)

Beyond your memory? A little bit, but I mean, a little bit.

Sky McAlpine (19:32)

I mean, I think I remember we, we did Christmas there on quite a big scale. We'd always have. My parents would always have a big Christmas Eve party and Father Christmas would always come, but he'd sort of stand in the distance so that he. Well, he was of course the real Father Christmas. But you know, he didn't, he didn't like to sort of show too much of himself lest one question his credentials. And I remember that and I remember my mother cooking lots in that kitchen. It had kind of like a proper country house kitchen. And I think because it's so close to London, Hampshire, my parents would always have massive Sunday lunches and people would just come down for lunch and kind of. So I have the memories of kind of lovely big long lunches as well.

Mat (20:16)

But that's pretty hardcore, isn't it? Like your, your, your home being blown up in that way, or at least part of it. I mean, did that. Is there a question around safety within the home connected to that? Did you feel unsafe in some way?

Sky McAlpine (20:30)

So in retrospect I.

Sky McAlpine (20:35)

I kind of didn't feel too unsafe, I think for my mother in retrospect. Now that I'm kind of a grown up and have my own children, I appreciate how challenging it must have been for her. I mean, now I also recognize how resilient children are because I remember, I think I did find it upsetting to some degree and I probably was a slightly more nervous child than I might have been if that hadn't happened. And it kind of, I think impacted, you know, we prompted our move to Venice to some degree. Definitely meant that I think we felt kind of safer maybe in Venice. And we had things for years when we'd travel, we'd always fly under a different name and sort of odd bits and bobs like that. But I think my mother really was very keen that I not be stressed by it and insulated me from it very, very successfully.

Mat (21:31)

Well, that's amazing, isn't it? And I can see that Venice would be the place to do that because it feels it's like that anyway.

Sky McAlpine (21:37)

It does. It's a really.

Mat (21:38)

It's insulated.

Sky McAlpine (21:39)

It feels, it's literally physically insulated and it's its own time capsule. It's in many ways, and particularly then, this is ferti plus years ago, 35 years ago or something. And Venice then was kind of even more of a sort of bubble than it is now. So I think that was pretty magical to be able to kind of get away from all of that and kind.

Mat (22:09)

Of move there and so how old were you when your parents separated?

Sky McAlpine (22:13)

I was 16.

Mat (22:15)

What was that like?

Sky McAlpine (22:16)

Not super fun, but then probably anyone whose parents separated would say the same. It wasn't super fun, but it was what it was.

Mat (22:26)

Yeah. Do you look back on that with regret? And also, does it impact the way that your relationship is with your husband? Because I always think that, like, we only have one blueprint to work to, don't we?

Sky McAlpine (22:39)

I think it does. I think it may helped me. I mean, I first met my husband. We met in freshers week at university and very quickly, I think, you know, I kind of knew he was the one.

Mat (22:55)

How did you know?

Sky McAlpine (22:56)

I just knew. And I know people say that and it's really annoying and you're kind of like, no, but you've got to have more. I just. It was. I think it's a bit like that home feeling. It felt weirdly like being home, even though we kind of only met maybe a week or two before.

Sky McAlpine (23:14)

But his parents. His parents are separated also.

Sky McAlpine (23:19)

And I don't know if that's. And I think we both kind of love our, you know, grateful for our setup. I mean, everyone. No one who gets married gets married planning on separating. So I don't know, but I think we just had an unlike. We just found home in each other very quickly.

Mat (23:37)

That's a really nice way to put it.

Sky McAlpine (23:38)

Yeah.

Mat (23:39)

This is quite a probing question, but do you feel at home within yourself?

Sky McAlpine (23:44)

Yes, I do. I think I do feel. I feel very at home in myself. Like, I do enjoy my own. I love being. I mean, my favourite is to be with friends and I love a party and everything. But weirdly, I've never done one of those personality tests, you know, where you can see what kind of. But I sort of think if I did, I'd come up as an introvert because I'm naturally quite shy and I do love being around people, but I'm such an only child that after a while I do also need. I kind of need a bit of a nap or some quiet time. I struggle to be around people all the time. I really enjoy my time to myself as well.

Sky McAlpine (24:22)

So I am happy. I think I. You know, I do enjoy My own company. I am happy in myself. I think that's something I need to work on, like we all need to work on. As I get older, I kind of realize that things like being happy, it doesn't just come. There are aspects of life that will prompt it or make it easier for you or trigger it for you. But we do. We all have to work at, you know, when something wonderful falls into your lap. You also have to have the ability to kind of recognize that it's a wonderful thing, and then the ability to kind of, you know, accept that you're lucky that this wonderful thing has happened. And that's okay. You know, like the. I think being happy is being lucky and having the circumstances to be happy, but it's also putting conscious effort into being happy as well, if that makes sense.

Mat (25:10)

Yeah. I think one of the things I've taken away from meeting you again today is that you're very good at gratitude. I think. I mean, just going around and, you know, you've collected mementos of occasions that you've really enjoyed and that have clearly meant a lot to you. Actually, that act is about gratitude, and that's really important. I think I'm really bad at that. You see, I'm very bad at marking something and saying, that went well, or I enjoyed that, or. And that's kind of what you're saying, because that goes into this feeling of happiness, doesn't it?

Sky McAlpine (25:40)

For me, it definitely does. I mean, what I'm working on is when things go well in terms of personal work goals or personal achievements. I don't know if we all do this, but I definitely do have a real tendency to kind of move the goalpost. So, you know, I remember when I started out writing my blog years ago, all I wanted to do was publish a cookbook. I mean, that for me, of the pinnacle was the absolute dream come true. And if I could just do that, I would kind of die contented and happy. Now I'm on book four, which is incredible, and I'm so grateful, but it's very easy to get caught up in kind of, oh, well, maybe the book is perceived as a commercial success or not a commercial success, or maybe it's well received. Maybe no one reads it. All these things, and it's not that they don't matter, of course they do, but taking that time to recognize that that thing that you once wanted has happened and you have managed to achieve it, and letting yourself enjoy that moment before you move on to worrying about the next thing or the next challenge or Upping the stakes a bit. It doesn't come naturally to me, but I think it's a helpful tool in terms of getting through life.

Mat (26:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. No, I really admire that you touched on it there. But you studied Classics at Oxford, right?

Sky McAlpine (26:57)

Yeah.

Mat (26:58)

How did you end up getting into food then?

Sky McAlpine (27:00)

What's such a random story? So I studied classics at Oxford, which in itself was slightly random because neither of my parents went to university or had much interest in. Kind of.

Sky McAlpine (27:13)

Stood much store by university kind of education. It was never sort of. But I was quite bookish, like I said, and always did quite well at school, mostly because I'm a terrible goody two shoes. So if a teacher said to, like, kind of read pages, you know, 10 to 75, I would read pages 10 to 75 and I'd do it well. So I did quite well at school and I decided as my great act of rebellion, that I was in fact going to go to university. And then I watched, I mean, this is the madness of it. I watched that incredible ITV adaptation of Brideshead Revisited and thought that just seemed fabulous. And so then decided that I should go to Oxford. And because I wasn't at school in England and I just sort of didn't realize it was actually quite hard to get into Oxford or whatever. So I thought, I'm going to go to Oxford and if I don't go to Oxford, if that really doesn't work out, I'll just go to university in Venice or Padova or somewhere local. So I just applied to Oxford and then by some sort of bizarre miracle, I kind of got in and then I arrived and I was massively underqualified to kind of cope. I'd never written an essay in English before.

Sky McAlpine (28:20)

Well, I hadn't done A levels. Instead I'd done the Maturita, which is sort of 13 subjects. So my kind of. My levels of Latin and Greek were very poor by comparison to my really impressive peers. So I kind of muddled my way through that, not excelling, but surviving. And I loved it. I mean, it was a huge challenge. I love my time there. I met my husband. It was magic. It wasn't, you know, I didn't carry a teddy bear around and I didn't actually have a very bright Head revisited experience, but I made wonderful friends and I loved. I think it was a nice transition for me from Venice because it's such a beautiful town and it feels quite like Venice in a way. And I am sensitive to my surroundings. I do enjoy being in A or Everyone enjoys being in a beautiful place. But I know that about myself. So I did kind of. I was very grateful for that and I loved that. But I was sort of really just surviving. And then in my last year, and I thought I was going to be a lawyer, which was my second act of rebellion against my parents, who kind of.

Sky McAlpine (29:22)

Thought, this sounds like a terrible idea. I mean, they were. For me, it actually probably was, right? It would have been a terrible idea for me with my personality, like loath confrontations. It would have been a terrible lawyer. But I convinced myself that's what I was going to do. And then in my last year at university, I did a paper. One of the final exam modules was that I chose was this paper that was looking at sort of representations of classical themes in English literature. And I just. That just blew. It made the whole of my degree kind of suddenly makes sense, this sort of connecting the ancient world with the world that we live in now in a more direct way. And I absolutely loved it and became obsessed. And so then I was still going to be a lawyer and I signed up to do an MA at ucl, part time, in the evenings, continuing. It was MA in what they call reception theory, which is much as it says, it's looking at basically the influence of the aspects of the classical world on the Western, on Western civilization. And then, so that was all great. And then just after finals, my husband was like, you don't want to be a lawyer. Like, don't do that. Just do the ma. Enjoy doing the ma. And don't, you know, don't. Don't be a lawyer just to spite your poor parents. So I was like, okay, great. So I did my MA and then the MA took me to my PhD and I loved it. But all the while I was cooking and hosting and loving that. And if I'd known.

Sky McAlpine (30:47)

What the graduate path sounds so silly, but what the graduate path to being a cookery writer was. And if I'd believed that I could be on it when I was 21 or 22, I 100% would have just done that. But I somehow got caught up in this thing when you leave university that you think you can only really do. And maybe this was much more of a thing back in the days before the Internet and social media and everything, but where you can only really do what the sort of careers department does tell you are the options. And so I kind of. I wouldn't say I wasted time because actually I loved that time. And it was so I wouldn't trade it, but I It took me longer to find my path. But anyway, whilst I was then doing my PhD, I started writing a blog about food or I did this food writing course at Pruleafs. And that was really fun because they had different speakers come, you know, like a food stylist and a restaurant critic and a recipe writer and recipe developer and talk about their life experiences and how they got to do what they were doing, et cetera. And what I learned, took away from that, that was a big lesson for me, was that they hadn't all kind of gone to culinary school or had restaurants or been chefs and therefore were deeply qualified to write cookbooks. They kind of lived their lives and found their way meandering to doing what they loved. And so that's just slightly inspired me to try and to be a little bit brave about it and to put myself out there. So then I started writing a blog and then eventually I got that commissioned into being. My first book was roundabout when I finished my PhD, and so I was quite lucky that by the time I completed my PhD, I kind of had something tangible to hook onto that felt like it could maybe qualify as a job. And so I moved into food, basically.

Mat (32:33)

So taking up the theme of food now, then your. Your home, your current home, and moving on to this place where we are recording this now. I mean, your kitchen is absolutely the heart of your working life, isn't it?

Sky McAlpine (32:46)

Yeah, it's the heart of everything.

Mat (32:47)

It's like your identity almost, basically.

Sky McAlpine (32:48)

I mean, I could have a little kind of sleeping bag in there and then just section off that bit of the house and basically be fine.

Mat (32:57)

But tell me about that. I mean, why is that space so central to your everything?

Sky McAlpine (33:05)

I think because I feel happiest fair, probably. That's where I feel most kind of comfortable. Like we've said, like, having people over, having people around, that makes me very happy. That feeling of bringing a little bit of joy or warmth into other people or people that I care about's lives feels like a great privilege and gives you a bit of a high. So I enjoy that. And then maybe because of that, maybe because of the ghosts of that, it's also where if I'm me and my laptop writing with my cup of tea, that's where I'll gravitate to. It's kind of where the boys will do their homework, you know, it's where they build their Lego, which drives me mad because I'm like, lego upstairs, it's plastic. But I try and rein that back in because, you know, plastic toys and everything important part of growing up. And so it's, you know, when my husband will cook supper or if we're just having supper, just us or barbecue or whatever on the patio, which is sort of attached to. Attached to the kitchen. It's just. It's where I feel kind of happiest. And then somehow over time, I think, because what I do doesn't, I guess, have a kind of graduate career path is a bit amorphous. It's sort of grown from there. I think it's all grown from my kitchen, even if it hasn't grown from this physical kitchen, because we only moved in here about six years ago, and I've been writing about food now for, I guess, close to 10 years.

Sky McAlpine (34:32)

But this. The platonic ideal of the kitchen, as it were. That is what kind of, in a way, downstairs is a reflection of. Is where it all comes from, if that kind of makes sense.

Mat (34:44)

Yeah. Yeah. It's obviously about connection, isn't it?

Sky McAlpine (34:48)

I love connection, but I love also when I say I love parties, I love an excuse to dress up. I love a party. But I don't really love cocktail parties, for example, unless it's, like my own cocktail party. And that's just. I've curated them. They're all my favorite people, and I get to see everyone together. I don't love going into a big room full of people, but I do love going to, you know, a friend's house for a kitchen supper and sitting around the table with six people who I may or may not know, but, like, are people that they think I'm gonna have a. You know, we're all gonna connect and sitting down and having a proper conversation. But I love chatting. I mean, this is the dream. This is, like, such a treat to a rolling podcast. Yeah, exactly. You know, I love chatting about things and discussing them. You know, my favorite drive is my poor husband Matt. But I love, like, going for a walk, whether it's around the park or in Venice, Like, a long walk, and then just, like, chatting about stuff. Yeah, it's really fun. And then chatting over food. People, I feel like, have better conversations often over food. Settled.

Mat (35:45)

If you're enjoying this conversation with sky, you might be interested to watch our video tour tour of her house. She talks me through her personal collections of objects, including gifts from her family. And we have a laugh about the time she rustled up a Gwyneth Paltrow turmeric drink and it exploded all over her kitchen. Head to patreon.com homingwithmat to take a Look. So is there a particular occasion you've had here that sticks out in your memory as being particularly successful or memorable? And why is that?

Sky McAlpine (36:19)

It's like choosing a favorite child.

Sky McAlpine (36:22)

I mean, I've had a lot of birthdays here. Like I have a kind of format for my birthday which is like clear all the furniture out of the kitchen, do one long table and get as many friends around as I can. We do actually, but I really love doing. That's become a sort of tradition for our youngest son's birthday is in June.

Sky McAlpine (36:41)

And so we always do a sort of. He usually now has a birthday party which is with his school friends, which will be like at a play center or kind of laser tag or something that he really wants. And then we do afternoon tea here for his godparents and his grandparents will come and then friends with children the same age and they're all friends come. And I do. It's like a proper, old fashioned, deeply unfashionable tea party. And do the table and we always have fun and we go all out with the theme and he loves choosing the theme. And I do a mad cake. And that's always because it's summer and it's. And it's lots of people and it's across the generations. That always feels like a very special moment in the year. And I'm sort of dreading him. I think he's going to be 18 and I'm still going to be forcing him to have the tea party.

Mat (37:27)

And then. And then what would be an example of one that wasn't so successful? I mean, that's a bit hard to answer. But why would it not work? Not necessarily for you, but for anyone.

Sky McAlpine (37:37)

I think if you get stressed about it, it's less fun. A little bit of stress. If you're organizing a big thing and you've got a lot on is probably kind of norma. What I find is if I. Sometimes I'm rushing around that half hour before everyone arrives, kind of madly thinking, like to try to tidy and.

Sky McAlpine (37:55)

Finish off cooking and trying to sort things out and think, God, why am I doing this? And then from the moment people arrive, you're like, oh, this is why it's so fun. It was worth it.

Mat (38:03)

Okay.

Sky McAlpine (38:07)

I think basically hosting is all about your attitude. Do it. And it should. And it's just about remembering that it's fun. And I think it's a bit like being happy to some degree. It's a mindset. And of course there are things that can go horribly wrong. Like if I didn't know, if your friends had said they were coming and then they just didn't come, that would be a bit sad.

Mat (38:24)

I don't know. But.

Sky McAlpine (38:26)

But I think a lot of the things that people normally think of as qualifying as a failure is socially miss. But, you know, like burning the pudding or burning the. The roast or whatever, there's nothing that there's not, you know, just ordering pizza or. Or make a salad or do a quick pasta or just make a joke. Like, I think it's a big misconception. This is deeply ironic coming from someone who writes cookbooks, but people don't actually come to your home for the food or really actually for the drink. I mean, they come to be with you. And I think they come for that feeling, that happy feeling of being in a welcoming, warm space and being taken care of for a little bit. So I think it's about remembering not to stress too much about fussing. It's a bit like, you know, when parents are being really annoying and they're fussing over you. And of course, it comes from a pace that this place of love, I noticed it with my own boys. I think it's an expression of love to kind of fuss and put the jacket on and all this kind of stuff. But for them, it's just a little bit annoying. I think it's the same with guests. Like, if you're. You invite people over because you want them to. You want in some way to express a little bit of warmth and love to them and make them feel taken care of. But then when they get here, you're kind of stressing them out by being stressed that this isn't ready or that's not, you know, like, it's not perfect. It's not a very nice experience for them, really. All they just want to come is come. And it's about feeling really more than things or anything that you can do.

Mat (39:42)

So how do you implement that, then, in terms of making sure that you're present with your guests rather than buzzing around them?

Sky McAlpine (39:49)

So the kitchen that's also a dining room really helps with that. And then I basically. I mean, friends who come for supper or Sunday lunch here regularly will know that ironically, for someone who loves food and is the world's greediest person and writes cookbooks, I'm not actually particularly imaginative with my menus. Like, I probably have a rotor. A favorite that I make time and time again. And that's in large part because they're recipes that I know well, I'm confident with. I can do in My sleep. But also they're things that you just pop in the, you know that don't you pop in the oven and you can forget about. I think especially in my second book, which is A Table for Friends, what I was really trying to do with that, that I think is quite helpful and I implement is.

Sky McAlpine (40:30)

Just put outlining the techniques, all the tricks, kind of for building a menu that is super user friendly and will allow you to be pretty hands off and enjoy your. Your time with your friends. And I think that's kind of key and really helps. I also think just shedding the guilt.

Sky McAlpine (40:50)

So if you don't feel like cooking and you do live in London or whatever, just order Deliveroo and just put it on nice plates. But don't feel guilty about it. Actually kind of fabulous to have Chinese or whatever.

Sky McAlpine (41:05)

What is it Julia Child who said never apologize? And I think that is true. And we all have a tendency to apologize, but we shouldn't just let it be. Put it out there for what it is.

Mat (41:16)

So another one of your books is called A Table Full of Love, is that right?

Sky McAlpine (41:20)

Yes.

Mat (41:21)

So do you see that as an act of love of sorts then?

Sky McAlpine (41:24)

Yes. So that was my last book, my third book, the last one before my next book comes out. And that I came up with the idea for, I guess during COVID or just after Covid. And for me, in a way it's almost like a little bit of a manifesto because I was really thinking about why do we do this? Why do we carve time, why do I carve time out of my busy week to kind of put the effort in to cook a lunch or a dinner or whatever for friends or.

Sky McAlpine (41:53)

Why bother? Like you can just get actually very good food ready, prepared or whatever. And I realized that every time you make something for someone, when you cook for them, even simple act of like kind of making someone a cup of tea, it is an expression of love. And of course that there's a. There's a scale of love and there's a scale of kind of effort into what you're doing or baking a birthday cake or whatever. But I became very interested then in this idea of love and how in the English language we use the word love quite generically. So like I love potato crisps and I love my children and I love going on holiday and I love pink. But probably like my feeling for each of these things, I mean, I do really love potato crisps. So. But like the actual feeling for each of these things is a very different feeling. And in ancient Greece, they have different words for different kinds of love.

Sky McAlpine (42:47)

And I became interested in this idea of different kinds of love and how you might express that through food. So then each of the chapters in the book is about kind of. So there's a chapter on friendship, for example, and a chapter on romantic love, and those are recipes for two. Or there's a chapter on family love, and those are kind of recipes that you might cook with your children or prepare for your children and so forth. So that was kind of the.

Mat (43:10)

I love your books. I've got all of them, and I genuinely do cook from them. And I cook from them in the way that you intend, which is. If I've got 10 people coming over. I look at it as a set of things, you know, mejiosa buco and the salad and the. You know, I don't know. I really think it works really well. I mean, you talking about love there, it makes me kind of think that these events, these dinners that you host here at home, surely that positive energy sort of seeps into the walls somehow.

Sky McAlpine (43:41)

I hope so. It's a bit of a catch 22, because I wonder sometimes. It's just the space was a positive space, and that's what kind of. Or if it's what you do in the space that creates the ghosts or the happy ghosts, that kind of. And it's chicken and egg. It is chicken and egg.

Mat (43:56)

But both are true, aren't they? I mean, there's that Walter Benjamin quote that something like, to live means to leave traces. I think it is. But we leave traces behind, don't we? We were talking earlier when we were looking around about your marble worktop, and it's got the scuffs on it. And.

Mat (44:14)

I really believe that that energy that you create is left behind.

Sky McAlpine (44:18)

Oh, I hope so. It's nice to think that. And I definitely make. Like. We were saying, like, I love moment, you know, I love mementos. I like seeing, like you were saying, if there's kind of. Well, my. My turmeric explosion incident. It's quite nice sort of seeing that, you know, that memory. Not because it was just. Because it was so farcical, not particularly happy time. But it's nice, you know, it's part of a collection of mem. You say that are basically like living in a. In a space and being happy in a space. And I do think buildings have energy. Like, this house looked completely different when we first came, you know, when we bought it was not to my taste at all, and very different. And. But the building itself just Somehow had a very positive energy. And the flat that we live in in Venice, when I. When I first went to look at it, I just walked in and I just felt something. I just thought this. This feels like home to me. And I think it. And our old flat where we lived here in London before here, which was sort of over arrest. It was sort of really grotty flat, actually. I mean, I loved it, but objectively. And it was over a Thai restaurant and an Afro Caribbean restaurant across kind of two buildings. And it had extra extractor fan outside of the bedroom and an extractor fan outside of the kitchen and which were quite noisy and. But I just walked in and it felt like home. And it was our home for 10 years and I loved it there. And genuinely I felt incredibly sad to sell it. I'm just happy other people are living there now and hopefully they're happy enjoying it too. But you think buildings have an aura. I don't know what the science of.

Mat (45:57)

That is, but I know I. I definitely agree. No, I know it'd be amazing to put one's finger on it, but I don't know.

Sky McAlpine (46:05)

And I guess it's what you're looking for in a build so briefly, but what you're looking for in a building. Like. I guess I walked in here and what I saw was a space that would allow me to have as many people as possible over for a meal. And I guess that's what was getting me excited.

Mat (46:20)

And that's the most important thing to you.

Sky McAlpine (46:22)

But I suppose if other things were important to me, then maybe I'd look at this and see a whole heap of problems. I probably would. Definitely would. And I think that's why I loved Vigorotti Flat over the restaurants. Cause similarly, it was like. It was big and airy. And.

Sky McAlpine (46:39)

So that's what I saw in it. That was beautiful.

Mat (46:43)

I kind of feel like, and I include myself in this, that the people that are most obsessed with their homes. I mean, it's a big word, but you know what I mean? That preoccupies them.

Mat (46:56)

I like that. Because they're fragile in some way.

Sky McAlpine (47:00)

Yeah.

Mat (47:00)

Is it. What, what. What do you think about that in the context of your personality, in the way that you are.

Sky McAlpine (47:06)

I think I probably am quite well. I'm that weird combination of very fragile and an incredibly tough.

Mat (47:13)

It's a good one.

Sky McAlpine (47:14)

I kind of. I do think I'm quite. I'm quite sensitive. I. Or I feel like I'm quite sensitive. And I often. Perhaps. Perhaps I worry about things a lot. Doesn't necessarily mean that I'm taking proactive action, but I do worry about things. But I like to think, and I know of myself that if push comes to shove, when the chips are really down, if I need to be tough, I can be tough to kind of overcome.

Mat (47:41)

How do you know that?

Sky McAlpine (47:43)

Well, leap of faith. No, but I feel like we all have challenges in our life that are tough, and I got through them when I got over on the other side, and I can do it again if I have to. I'd definitely rather not.

Mat (47:57)

What was your toughest time then?

Sky McAlpine (47:59)

I don't know. I mean, I suppose moments, you know, like my parents splitting up was very difficult for different reasons.

Sky McAlpine (48:08)

You know, when my father passed away, that was difficult for different reasons. You know, illness. My mother's been on. Has been unwell at times or is, you know, that's difficult. You know, when our eldest was born, she was diagnosed, sort of. She was diagnosed within weeks. She was diagnosed cancer and went in for surgery. And then there were complications. She was in hospital for, like, two months. Had septicemia. We thought she was gonna die. Like, it was a very tough time. And I remember it being very difficult.

Sky McAlpine (48:42)

And just kind of being like, just need to get through the day. But I did get through the day, and obviously there are tougher things out there, and maybe I wouldn't get through those days. But I like. I think the thinking that you can gives you a massive head start. So it's probably important not to question that too probingly.

Mat (49:04)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I hope you don't mind me asking about this, because I know, sorry, such a difficult time for everyone in your family. But the period before your father passed away was particularly awful, wasn't it?

Sky McAlpine (49:17)

Yes. That's another instance of kind of challenge.

Sky McAlpine (49:24)

And we all got through it. People get through stuff, I guess. I mean, you look at God, the world that we live in now, and you just have to look at the news or not even look at news. Look at images that are being posted on social media and. And God, you know what? Every day across the world, all sorts of people are being so brave and kind of getting through. I think the human capacity to overcome immense challenges.

Sky McAlpine (49:56)

Is sort of. There aren't words. There aren't words to kind of COVID it. So I think we're. When I say, I guess I'm really tough, I guess my way. What I'm trying to say is I think we are all. We are all very tough, and we all have it in us. And then I think what I'm grateful for is that I guess my parents and especially my mother growing up gave me that confidence to know that I have that in me, and hopefully, God willing, I don't need to use it like that skill. Do you know what I mean?

Mat (50:28)

Yeah.

Sky McAlpine (50:28)

Yeah.

Mat (50:29)

But I don't know. I can't imagine what that would have been like for you. I mean, for people that don't know. He was. Was falsely implicated in a child abuse scandal, and he subsequently sued the BBC and ITV successfully and donated the money to charity. I mean, for you, as his daughter, how did you. What was going through your world at that moment?

Sky McAlpine (50:54)

I just had a baby. Like, literally a nurse was born. I came out of hospital, and kind of two days later, it all kind of happened. So I did. It was awful. But I was also, you know, I just had a C section. It was our first child. Like, I mean, it's in a way that was probably like, kind of a blessing because I kind of was just all, you know. And then a few weeks later, my mother was diagnosed with cancer. So it was like a. In my mind, it was just a blur of a tough time. You know, I don't remember it being happy.

Sky McAlpine (51:29)

But we got through. And it could have been a lot worse is kind of how I.

Mat (51:33)

So do you see it? Putting one foot in front of the other?

Sky McAlpine (51:36)

I think so, yeah. I think you just put one foot in front of the other, and it could have been a lot worse. And for many people, it is a lot worse. And I was very grateful, you know, for that. But it was a tough time. But also, in theory, okay, you can be incredibly unlucky, but generally the hope is that tough times don't last. Last. Last forever.

Sky McAlpine (51:59)

And sometimes, you know, kind of being distract. That that's. And that's the incredible thing also about children. I mean, not that it was in any of. It was in any way planned, but having someone who needs you and.

Sky McAlpine (52:13)

Relies on you and that it's most acute with a tiny baby, you know, most acute with a tiny baby is a. Is a wonderful thing and is a wonderful antidote to all sorts of other unhappinesses that you might have in your life that you don't have control over.

Mat (52:28)

Yes. There's no greater sense of purpose, is it?

Sky McAlpine (52:31)

It does create a sense of purpose. And I think, of course, that's most obvious with a small baby. But to some degree, that's what I think why I care so much about. And sounds so superficial and banal, but why care so much about hosting dinner Parties and things like that. Because it is a moment when you can in a way be doing something nice for people that either you care about or you might come to care about or if they're new friends or whatever. But it does give a sense of purpose to your day that you to some degree have control over. Cause there's a lot in life that we don't have control over.

Mat (53:03)

Yeah. So before we started recording, you said that that sofa you're sitting on is sometimes a bed late at night when you can't sleep.

Sky McAlpine (53:12)

I have really bad insomnia and my poor husband, my poor long suffering husband. So I try not to wake him up. And so if I can, if it's sort of, if I feel like I could maybe go back to sleep easily, I'll put my headphones on and listen to an audiobook and then just kind of hopefully go back to sleep. But if I'm really wired, I'll kind of come down here and either read my book or I mean, shockingly at points I'm doing like emails or kind of things that all the sleep therapy books will 100% tell you not to be doing. You know, online shopping. I'm a terrible. When my insomnia is really, really, really bad, I kind of go into this weird haze where I find it quite soothing to online shop. And then kind of the next day, you know, you get the little notification, this has been dispatched. I'm like, Christ, what did I buy? Like, what was I thinking? It's like I'm very vulnerable to online advertising in the middle of the night, so I shouldn't be on my phone, but I am. But I'll come down here and then after I've done that, you know, read my book or watch my movie or done whatever, eventually, hopefully I get tired again and then I get to sleep on here and it's so comfy. Because I was saying before we had. At our old flat, we had a sort of very elegant, deeply uncomfortable little mini sofa that I used to do the same thing on. And I had always. It was always a disaster and I felt so uncomfortable. But on this one I could happily sleep here full time.

Mat (54:36)

It does look extremely comfortable.

Sky McAlpine (54:37)

Super cosy.

Mat (54:39)

Have you always been a bad sleeper or is this a new thing?

Sky McAlpine (54:42)

No, I haven't. I think it's come to me slightly later in life. I find asleep much better in Venice. I don't know if that's to do with just. I'm more at peace there in some way or if it's. I don't know what it's to do but I definitely notice I sleep a lot better there. I find it very easy to go to sleep. I'm exhausted by kind of quite early and I'll go to bed. I never. I rarely have problems getting to sleep but I'll quite often wake up in the. I'm an early riser as well and I'll quite. Which is fine. I can get up five o' clock most days that is early which is early which is great because I love. Because I kind of love working early in the morning that's the kind of dream time but sometimes when I have insomnia and it's fine if I wake up anytime from 4, I know I'm kind of okay. But it's that bit when you wake up before four is not so good because.

Sky McAlpine (55:34)

It'S a long stretch.

Mat (55:37)

So can you put your finger on why that's happening? Do you think it's just. Just general life stuff?

Sky McAlpine (55:43)

It's slightly my disposition I think okay. It gets worse when I have late nights ironically so I notice if I go to sleep late I sleep a lot less. Well I don't know why that is but it is the case. So I try and have an early night whenever I can and I know that if I've got a lot on. I mean I say if I'm worried. Worried is maybe the wrong word but if I know that like I've got lots on work wise or lots of projects they could be even exciting projects that I'm thinking about but my brain is whirring and I really struggle to quieten it down.

Mat (56:18)

How do you in general sort of wider life. How do you wind down? How do you keep yourself on an even keel like we all have to do.

Sky McAlpine (56:26)

Am I gonna say online shopping? Yeah, apart from the online shopping I. What do I do? I like walks are really good for clearing my head walks and a phone call. So I'll call my mum or I'll call a friend and have just a chat and go for a nice long walk. I really love doing that. I don't maybe do it as much as I could or should but I find it really helps. I try and take especially in the winter a hot bath before bed. Someone said that helps with sleep and I definitely love a hot bath so kind of watch a bit of a movie and have a hot bath.

Sky McAlpine (57:00)

I love cook, you know I love when I can when I have the freedom to just cook for the sake of cooking and it's not within the context of for a shoot or for, you know, working on a recipe or thinking about it. It's more just like I'm gonna bake a cake because why not? That is very, very relaxing for me as well. And also quite keen on audiobooks and I often tend to just like re. Listen to the same ones. There's something quite calming about that. So you kind of know the story as well. So it allows my mind to kind of wander, zone back in without having missed key elements.

Mat (57:35)

That's interesting. Yeah. There's a chapter in my book about sleep and I think, I mean that's partly because I'm a bit like. You haven't always slept that well, but recently I've definitely been a lot better. I feel like I take in a lot of sensory information and I think you kind of. Some people do and some people don't, but I suspect you probably do.

Sky McAlpine (57:55)

I agree. And it's not. I thought maybe it was annoying noise thing because London is noisy and we're on a very busy road here. Although our bedrooms at the back, but still. But I don't think it is because weirdly in Venice or Venice, no cars and no noise. You do get noise because it's like it's human noise. Like it's. The building's quite small. You hear people talking in the street under your window. So it is still noise. It's more like when I'm in London, it's a lot of sensory overload and there's just a lot going on and even kind of getting on the tube to get, get from one meeting to another is quite a lot. It's quite a lot. There's a lot all right. It feels like a lot to me. I don't know if that's because I didn't grow up here. And so it's still. I always still feel a bit like a small town girl in a big city.

Mat (58:37)

I'm sure there is a lot of that in there, you know, and I, but. And I. I suppose what I figured out is for me is so much about routine and if I have the same bedtime. It's like you were saying, when you go to bed late, it just throws everything out.

Sky McAlpine (58:49)

It throws everything out. And I've. So what I've. I'm bad at routine. Partly, probably partly self inflicted and partly just. So what I. Now, my compromise is now is I. If I'm doing something like having friends over for dinner or going out or something like that, then fine, that's going to be late. But I try and make sure if I humanly can. Some weeks it's not possible, but if I humanly can, to have at least three nights in there that are. I know I'm going to be in bed, that's really good early. And I'm increasingly trying to prioritize that. Not always successful.

Mat (59:23)

So I have something very similar where I try not to do two evening things in a row.

Sky McAlpine (59:28)

Yeah. Oh, that's quite a good way of doing it.

Mat (59:31)

I certainly don't do three. Sometimes it's two at the weekends, which doesn't sound very rock and roll. But for me, it's like, actually I have to just keep that evenness.

Mat (59:42)

Just generally for mental health purposes, you know.

Sky McAlpine (59:44)

Well, what happens to me is I get increasingly tired. Cause I don't. I don't sleep, I get more wired. I wake up earlier, try and get things done during the day. And then I kind of go into an emotional break. Like then when I'm tired, I become very emotional. So that's when I kind of burst into tears because, I don't know, I just missed the bus. Do you know what I mean? Or because the shop assistant says that they've run out of the specific kind of biscuit that I wanted. And suddenly that's like an incredible personal insult and the end of the world. And I know that about myself. So I try to manage it. And I also, when it happens, I try to manage it and be like, I'm only this upset about this thing because I'm tired. Just prioritize trying to, you know, if I can have a nap now or if I can make sure to cancel what's happening tonight to kind of get to bed. That that's important. So I do kind of try and do that. And then the other thing I've got back into recently that I'm really loving and does help me relax is reading. It's like I started a book club and I really prioritizing kind of. And loving reading, mostly fiction and reading for pleasure, which I used to do a lot as a child and as a teenager. And then slowly sort of fell out. I mean, I still did, but fell out of the habit of doing. But what I've noticed is. So when the boys are on holiday and we're in Venice or we're actually away on holiday, all I want to do is just read. And I kind of read lots, but I still struggle. I don't find it as relaxing when I'm in kind of work mode and really busy because I sort of struggle to. To get my brain to switch off long enough to get into the book. At least it's restorative in those periods that are meant to be restorative I guess.

Mat (61:21)

Yeah. I'd love to just quickly ask you about your mum cause we haven't spoken much about it. She's obviously an amazing person and you're clearly very close to her. Just tell me a bit about her.

Sky McAlpine (61:32)

She is amazing, she's very interesting. She was born in Shanghai which is a little known fact and she. What's kind of amazing about my mother is that she was sent to boarding school when she was 8 years old and her parents lived in India at the time so she saw them like once a year and she hated boarding school in all fairness in the sort of six I must have been late 50s, early 60s sounds like an awful kind of place to be.

Sky McAlpine (62:04)

And so she kind of grew up with that and she's kind of very.

Sky McAlpine (62:08)

Glamorous. She's always very beautiful but she's very glamorous and very aesthetically driven as well. But she amazingly has kind of been amazing mother to me. Even though she kind of didn't have that example in her own life I think. And she's where you to meet her. She's not an obviously maternal person.

Sky McAlpine (62:32)

So it. But she sort of found a way of kind of bringing me up to kind of. So that I always knew that she would be there and that you know, I was loved and kind of all the things that ultimately as a parent.

Sky McAlpine (62:48)

You try to achieve or you hope that you've achieved.

Sky McAlpine (62:51)

So that's kind of. I'm very lucky. She's a good mum to have.

Mat (62:57)

That's really lovely, isn't it? And you talked about a blueprint there so. So your own approach to motherhood then. What blueprint do you follow, do you think?

Sky McAlpine (63:07)

I wish I were more strategic about it. I feel like I'm just trying to get through the day by day, day by day.

Sky McAlpine (63:14)

I mean I'm not a very good parent. I'm really not.

Mat (63:17)

But why do you say that?

Sky McAlpine (63:19)

Because.

Sky McAlpine (63:22)

You know, I'm not on the school. What's it called, like parent, you know, I've never volunteered, you know, I'm not, I'm not good like I'm really disorganized person and kind of all over the shop. But I do love them so much and I do hope I do try and take every opportunity that I can to remind to make that explicit for them and I hope that they hear it. I think they do because I kind of believe with parenting the best that you can do Is know, I think all anyone really needs is. I don't know. Since becoming a parent, I used to think that parenting was like you molded and shaped children into beings. And I now really just think that beings are born and then they're kind of with you for a bit, and then they go off and do their own thing. And they're kind of almost pretty fully formed when they're born. So it's more about them knowing, always knowing that there' swell in our case too, because I know my husband feels the same way. But at least one person in this world who loves them, come what may, and loves them more than it's possible to love, you know, a person.

Sky McAlpine (64:29)

So I think that gives you. If you know that everything else is filler and you deal with it day by day. And then, of course, there are things, you know, more practical concerns as a parent, like, you know, trying to protect them from the evil side of the Internet. Do you know what I mean? Like, all these things that we all worry about or kind of like doing your best. But I think that's what I try and focus on and everything else. Just.

Sky McAlpine (64:54)

Hope for the best and do what I can.

Mat (64:56)

I think that's really touching. I really like that. I've got identical twins, so I know for a fact that they are born who they are.

Sky McAlpine (65:05)

You have scientific evidence.

Mat (65:06)

I have scientific evidence that they have been born from the same human being and lived in the same place and had the same experiences and yet are extremely different people. And so I love the idea that you're just there as a kind of support team for.

Sky McAlpine (65:21)

For them. I mean, I think, you know, they. They need to be who they are. And all I can really do is try and give them the confidence, hopefully to be. To feel comfortable and happy to be who they are and know that whoever they are, of course they're going to be lots of people that love them over the course of their lives, but, like, they're already starting with a strong home team.

Sky McAlpine (65:43)

Who will always be there and then, you know, just support, supporting them to be who they are. I mean, I'm excited. You know, I love them now and they're amazing now, but I'm excited in a way to meet the versions of them in years to come. And I think it's always, obviously, it's lovely when your children share an interest with you, but also it's kind of amazing when they find their own thing and you're like, my God, you're so clever at this. You're amazing at this thing that I Didn't even know was a thing. And you're bringing it into my life.

Mat (66:13)

So isn't that the best thing?

Sky McAlpine (66:14)

It's the best thing.

Mat (66:15)

I mean, it's incredible and absolutely love that thing. I mean, Faye and I are both tone deaf, but Indigo, our eldest, has a beautiful singing voice and is in the National Children's Choir. How does that work?

Sky McAlpine (66:27)

I mean, it's amazing.

Mat (66:29)

That's my favorite thing in the whole world. That.

Sky McAlpine (66:31)

It's incredible. I mean, that is incredible, though.

Mat (66:33)

Yeah. Where does it come from? But that's.

Sky McAlpine (66:36)

Yeah. And that's the amazing thing about children. And I think all about people. And children are small people, early stage people.

Sky McAlpine (66:46)

Yeah. But it is hard as a parent. I mean.

Sky McAlpine (66:50)

I'm sure my children will have long lists. They probably already do, actually. Don't ask them. They already do. I know. Have long lists of regular complaints. But I'm sure when they're older, there will be things that I've called wrong or where I've inadvertently not made them feel good or made the right call. But we're all people and we're all doing the best that we can.

Mat (67:14)

Well, there's that old book, isn't there, the Good Enough Parent.

Sky McAlpine (67:18)

Basically, I'm just aspiring to be the good enough parent. And that sounds like a cop out, but I think it's more realistic. A bit like entertaining. It's like you could aspire to host the perfect dinner party. But I worry that all this fascination with perfection hinders your ability to just kind of get on and invite people over for dinner. And that's obviously kind of.

Sky McAlpine (67:38)

Making it sound more banal than it might be, but I think the same applies to children. And if you can kind of be there, do your best to be happy as well. I know that sounds deeply selfish, and maybe I'm just telling myself this because it's convenient, but I think if you can have happy parents or broadly happy parents, no one's happy all the time. But happy parents, it's generally much nicer to be around happy people than not happy people for all of us. So I think that's a good service that you do for your children as well.

Mat (68:04)

I think that's a really good manifesto. As you were showing me around earlier, you had a bit of a coughing fit because of the dust that was coming off of some of the things that you were showing me, and I love that. But it's good enough. And I think that's the point. We see a polished version on Instagram.

Sky McAlpine (68:17)

Yeah.

Mat (68:18)

But actually there's reality There is for.

Sky McAlpine (68:20)

All of us, probably other people not live in homes as dusty as mine, but I'm really not a tidy person. I'm not an organized person, and I really wish I were. Honestly, I would give my little toe.

Mat (68:37)

Funny. So my last question, sky, and it's been so interesting.

Mat (68:44)

But you're someone that lives out your life in a relatively public way, at home at times. I'm sure it's an edited version of it, but we see a lot of you on Instagram and so on. But this is a question I always ask everyone, which is, what does that word home mean to you? How do you conjure it up? How do you explain it? What is it for you?

Sky McAlpine (69:02)

I mean, it's ultimately, ironically, in a podcast about buildings, home is people. I mean, I say I go to Venice and I feel like I'm at home, but that's because I associate it with my mother growing up and my husband. We've been going to Venice together since we were 18.

Sky McAlpine (69:23)

It's because of the people in it. And as much as a building can feel like home, if that blows up tomorrow, but you're able to be with the people that you love most in another place, that will very quickly, I think.

Sky McAlpine (69:38)

Begin to feel like home, too. I think it's a funny thing, home, because it can take a long time for a place to feel like home, but it can also happen quite quickly. Do you know what I mean? Or the impact. Somewhere can feel like home for a long time. You can grow up somewhere and then never go back, but that always feels like home in a way, in your mind. But also you could move somewhere completely new with your people, and very quickly. I think that would be on your home from the moment you put your foot in there.

Mat (70:06)

Exactly. It's a great answer, but it comes back to that belonging thing again. If you feel like you are part of.

Mat (70:14)

Something that socially connects you, then I think you feel at home.

Sky McAlpine (70:18)

I think so.

Sky McAlpine (70:21)

I guess. Is it a feeling of peace in some way? Maybe Peace is a little bit quiet.

Mat (70:28)

A little bit quiet.

Sky McAlpine (70:28)

A little bit on the quiet side.

Mat (70:30)

Yeah, good enough. And a little bit quiet. I love that. Thank you so much, Sky. I really enjoyed that.

Sky McAlpine (70:36)

Me too. Thank you so much.

Mat (70:38)

Thank you so much for listening along to my chat with sky today. I really hope you enjoyed it. A reminder that you can watch a video tour of sky's house at path patreon.com homingwithmat it's a really amazing house, so I very much recommend that if you're looking for some interiors inspiration. You can also watch the video version of this podcast, of course, on our YouTube channel, which you'll find@YouTube.com homingwithmat if you're a regular listener to the show and you haven't yet given us a rating or review, I totally get that. But I would be so, so grateful if you could just bear us second to do it, because it makes a really big difference and it helps other listeners to find the show too. Homing is an independent podcast produced by Pod Shop, with music by Simeon Walker. We're taking a short break over the festive period and we'll be back again very early in the new year. So wishing you all a very happy Christmas and see you on the other side. Bye bye.