Bachelorette Rumors, WNBA Negotiations & The OG Gamechanger: Billie Jean King

Summary

House of Maher Podcast Summary

Episode: Bachelorette Rumors, WNBA Negotiations & The OG Gamechanger: Billie Jean King
Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Wave
Guests: Ilona Maher, Olivia Maher, Adrianna “Dre Baby” Maher, Billie Jean King

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Episode Overview

This episode of House of Maher dives into viral moments, body image, women in sports and media, and the ongoing fight for equality, all filtered through the close-knit Maher sisters’ signature humor and openness. The highlight is an inspiring, thoughtful interview with tennis icon and activist Billie Jean King, who discusses her revolutionary role in women’s sports, business, identity, and resilience. The hosts and guest seamlessly blend personal stories, current events, and actionable wisdom for a lively and heartfelt listen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ilona’s SI Swimsuit Experience & Sea Lion Antics

(02:44 – 07:42)

• Ilona shares behind-the-scenes stories from her Sports Illustrated Swimsuit shoot in Loreto, Mexico.
  • Highlights: swimming with sea lions (and their poop), fears of sharks, and sticking close to guides for safety.
  • “I think if that’s my animal, you know, that’s what I would be. But I also have a serious respect for them... I fear them for sure.” – Ilona Maher (03:44, 04:06)
• Adriana discusses group food poisoning derailing shoot schedules.
• On body image: Ilona notes feeling bigger than in past shoots but ultimately loving the results.
  • “I definitely felt a little bit bigger than I have in some of my other shoots... But still, they got such great images. And then the one that they posted recently was, like, I felt like a dark vixen on the beach.” (06:31)

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2. Viral Controversy: Chapel Rowan Incident

(07:42 – 10:44)

• Adriana breaks down why rumors about Chapel Rowan being “disrespectful” to a young fan were overblown, drawing on social media’s tendency to dogpile on prominent women.
  • “This huge social trend... 20% of these negative social posts were created by bots.” – Adriana (09:40)
• Group reflects on how outspoken women are often targeted by cycles of backlash.

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3. Bachelorette Rumors: Would Ilona Join Reality TV?

(10:44 – 13:52)

• The sisters speculate about Ilona as a Bachelorette contestant. Ilona is wary about men’s true intentions, on- and off-camera (“I don’t know if the man I like would be on that show... there for a purpose, maybe not to find love.” – Ilona, 10:53).
• They brainstorm original show titles (“A Man for Maher”) and discuss reality TV tropes with full Maher humor.
• “Would you guys want me to do it?” – Ilona, playfully. (13:11)
  “No.” – Adriana (13:11)

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4. Interview: Billie Jean King Joins the Mahers

(14:18 – 62:03, main content)

A. Women’s Sports, Ownership, and Business

(15:11 – 22:23)

• Billie Jean King explains why women must seek ownership in all sports and how she became a minority owner of the Dodgers.
  • “It’s important to have women owners in everything. Not just women’s sports.” – Billie Jean King (15:30)
• Emphasis on business education for athletes:
  • “I always tell athletes, learn the business you’re in. Just learn it. So when you ask for something, you know what you’re actually asking for.” (17:57)
• She speaks about her journey from athlete to organizer and the long-term vision behind women’s leagues.
  • “A lot of these things we’re doing probably will take 10 to 20 years... but I want to do it for the future.” (20:11)

B. Organizing, Associations, and Domino Effects

(22:23 – 24:12)

• Importance of player associations and collective action: “If the top players won’t stick together, it does not happen. That is number one.” (22:53)
• The “original nine” and the $1 contract—foundation of women’s professional tennis and, by extension, pay equity in sports.
  • Notable: “The reason Serena Williams made almost $100 million just in prize money... is because of that moment in time.” (22:41)

C. WNBA, Negotiations, & The Foundations of Longevity

(27:39 – 31:09)

• Discussion of WNBA’s historic new CBA and the critical need for money and long-term stability.
  • “You have to have the money first. If you don’t have the money... long term, it won’t make it.” (28:44)
• The NBA’s own history of near-collapse and the impact of stars, leadership, and wise moves.

D. Signature Shoes & Early Athlete Empowerment

(31:09 – 32:35)

• Billie Jean King’s Adidas signature shoe (1971/2):
  • “I was the first athlete to have a signature shoe. You could actually wear it today.” (31:19)
• Personal touch: visiting the factory to learn about design and thank workers.

E. Coaching Styles & Changing Norms

(32:35 – 39:33)

• Reflections on coaching, communication, and shifting positivity in athlete feedback.
  • “I like them to say it like it is... I didn’t take it personally, which is really, really important.” – Billie Jean King (32:51)
  • Lively back-and-forth about athletes’ differences, generational shifts, and specificity of sport.

F. Stereotypes, Coming Out, and Legacy

(39:33 – 53:03)

• King’s memories of gender barriers (baseball versus softball), “expectations are so different... I like that women have higher expectations.” (41:44)
• On being outed in 1981:
  • “I did lose everything overnight... but I think it helped the future... People come up to me all the time and say, thank you... it helped me so much.” (49:04–50:44)

G. On Pressure and Privilege

(41:44 – 44:49)

• The origin of “Pressure is a privilege,” now a sports psychology staple:
  • “Champions adjust, and pressure is a privilege... it just came out of my brain because I was trying to help Lindsay.” (42:40)

H. On Love and Lasting Relationships

(53:03 – 56:41)

• Insights into her partnership with wife Ilana Kloss and what to look for in love:
  • “I think values are really important. Where do you both stand on values? That’s huge... Kindness is free, by the way. People forget that.” (53:24)

I. Representation & The Study of (Her)story

(57:11 – 62:03)

• Billie Jean King reveals she’s finishing her history degree at Cal State LA, and the challenge of being misrepresented in history books.
  • “How would you like to be in a history book and not have it right?... Only 15% [of history] is about women.” (61:27, 61:29)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Pressure is a privilege.” – Billie Jean King (42:40)
• “If the top players won’t stick together, it does not happen.” – Billie Jean King (22:56)
• “Kindness is free, by the way. People forget that.” – Billie Jean King (53:38)
• “We need equality... I’m just big on everybody being included. Equality, boys, everybody... Can you believe these [statue] numbers? It’s pretty pathetic.” (61:29)
• “I don’t know if it’s the truth though, but you are the one that people do know... you do have that responsibility.” – Billie Jean King, to Ilona (44:58)

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:44: Ilona’s SI swim shoot and swimming with sea lions
• 07:42: Chapel Rowan viral story breakdown
• 10:44: Bachelorette speculation and reality TV laughs
• 14:18: Billie Jean King interview begins
• 17:57: Importance of athletes learning the business side
• 22:41: Original Nine, $1 contract, domino effect for women’s sports
• 28:44: WNBA CBA, how leagues stay afloat
• 31:19: Billie Jean King’s signature Adidas shoe
• 32:35: Coaching styles and generational shifts
• 39:33: Stereotypes, memories of exclusion in sports
• 49:04: Coming out, losing endorsements, and long-term impact
• 53:24: Advice about love and relationships
• 61:29: Representation of women in history/statues
• 62:03: King’s interview wraps

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Tone and Flow

The Maher sisters exhibit their trademark blend of warmth, wit, and sincerity, inviting Billie Jean King into their “house” as both an honored elder and a friend. BJK’s wisdom comes with humility and candor, as she discusses business, activism, and personal struggles. The episode is lively, irreverent, but also deeply respectful and empowering.

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Closing Note

Billie Jean King’s presence elevates the episode, as her stories and advice weave together the themes of resilience, advocacy, humility, and joy in both sport and life. The Mahers cap off the show with a Book Nook segment on adaptations, tying a bow on their multi-faceted, culture-savvy camaraderie.

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For Further Listening

• Follow Billie Jean King on Instagram: @BillieJeanKing
• Check out the Maher sisters @HouseOfMar for more content and behind-the-scenes moments.

Transcript

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[Billie Jean King]

this

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Billie Jean King]

You never know what's going to happen when you meet another human being, how they're going to touch your life, or how you're going to touch their life. So it's important to stay alert. Muhammad Ali and I talked about that a lot. Pay attention to every single person. You never ever know how you're going to touch their life or they're going to touch your life.

[Ilana Clark]

Welcome or welcome back to House of Mar a wave original into it TurboTax. Now this is taxes. Set your racket down and help yourself to whatever is in the fridge. The WI fi password is serving all caps. See what you did there? You should know we have a few house rules here. Girls are magic. Reading is hot and so are you. Make sure to check us out on YouTube. Like us. Like and like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Hit that little bell button and see us serving right now.

[Emily]

Yes, a different kind of serve.

[Ilana Clark]

Everyone serve on three. One, two, three. Anyway, that was really good. We have an amazing conversation today with the legendary Billie Jean King lined up for you, and we're getting into everything from her amazing story to the WNBA negotiations. But first, let's get into the group Chat. Today's group chat is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax.

[Billie Jean King]

Let's get right into it.

[Emily]

I want to just quick if we can start with Alona, your latest si.

[Ilana Clark]

Oh, thank you for bringing that up.

[Emily]

Photo shoot came out.

[Ilana Clark]

Yes, thank you.

[Billie Jean King]

Can you tell us about that?

[Emily]

Because we have not yet get to hear about that shoot day in Loreto.

[Ilana Clark]

Right. It was under wraps. Adriana and I went out to Loreto, Mexico, and the first day, actually, we went swimming with sea lions. Damn. That was snorkeling.

[Emily]

Aren't they dangerous?

[Adriana]

Like, it was only in April. Only in April. That's when they got the babies.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ilana Clark]

But this guy goes all the time with them. He just swims with them and he brings people, and it's like you can be this close to a sea lion and you're swimming with them. A lot of poop in the water. Lot of poop. Lot of poop.

[Adriana]

And I didn't know how to snorkel really correctly, so I definitely.

[Ilana Clark]

We were scared for sure. And then also, this is a sharks meal.

[Emily]

Oh, God.

[Ilana Clark]

Should sharks be around here? You're at the buffet. We're at the buff.

[Emily]

You're part of the buffet, baby.

[Ilana Clark]

You're a side dish.

[Adriana]

But like, the sea lions knew the guy too. Knew the guy because he's there so often.

[Ilana Clark]

Yeah, but it was.

[Adriana]

It was jarring for sure. Jarring.

[Emily]

Was this a dream come true for you? You love sea lions.

[Ilana Clark]

You know, I love sea lions. I think if that's my animal, you know, that's what I would be. But I also have a serious respect for them. To be sure.

[Adriana]

To be sure.

[Ilana Clark]

I'm one of those with animals like, respect. I don't need to touch it. I'm riding off and I don't do that.

[Emily]

Yeah, I hear you. And I like you live with respect. All fear, none. But in this case, it's a respect and fear.

[Ilana Clark]

Respect and fear.

[Emily]

To be sure.

[Ilana Clark]

I fear them for sure. So I was like, we're going swimming with these bad boys. And even when I told my dad, he was like, uh. Cause they're wild animals. But what a cool experience. I mean, we were these. These are my favorite animals. And we were right up close to them with them. We were trying to figure it out, like, how to snorkel. It was both of us not strong swimmers, and we didn't want to, like, lose a pack.

[Adriana]

So I'm back up. I am a strong swimmer, 100%.

[Ilana Clark]

Do not pick that up. Are you a strong snorkel with fat slippers? On.

[Adriana]

No, that was my first time ever snorkeling. But. But you have to clarify. Thank you.

[Ilana Clark]

Okay. She's all right. This is Katie Ledecky over here. But no, it was really great. We definitely stayed close. Like, I was close to my guy. I was not leaving his side.

[Emily]

Was the water really deep?

[Ilana Clark]

Very deep and kind of dark.

[Adriana]

They were like, do not touch the rocks.

[Ilana Clark]

That's their territory. Do not miss their territory.

[Billie Jean King]

I was like, what the.

[Emily]

So what do we do?

[Ilana Clark]

They're barking in the water like this. Pretty much. I didn't want to. The two scaring them.

[Adriana]

So they're diving in. So they're just underneath you too.

[Ilana Clark]

And then they look up at you as they're diving. They're like, what the hell's that?

[Billie Jean King]

Shut up.

[Emily]

That's scary.

[Ilana Clark]

But that was actually really cool day. Then we got beautiful shots on this, like, kind of private little beach. And we had delicious burritos there. Oh, my God, they're so good. Floss, burrito, beans, and then, like, a cheese one.

[Adriana]

And then we were having mezcal out of seashells as, like, little shot glass.

[Ilana Clark]

Strawberry. It was like, strawberry something delicious.

[Emily]

Fabulous. Now, I did hear everyone got food poisoning.

[Adriana]

That was the next day.

[Ilana Clark]

That was the next day. And our. The next day, my shoot was like, push back hours. We had to be wearing makeup for, like, five.

[Adriana]

Yeah, you had a call time for 5am and then we get their hair and makeup, and, like, half the SI staff went down.

[Ilana Clark]

Oh, no.

[Adriana]

And so, like, Ilona's, like, hair and makeup is done, but, like, the doctor is coming, and people are like, so what was MJ calling it?

[Emily]

A.

[Ilana Clark]

A poop delay or a. I don't remember.

[Adriana]

It was something like that. It was like, poop delay. If she had a good. I'll figure it out.

[Emily]

Speaking of mj, make sure you go and see our conversation with MJ Day. You can hear all about more trials and tribulations on shoots like this because, well.

[Ilana Clark]

And that was when she goes wild. Everyone had to have a shot of tequila, right? I took two shots of tequila before I got out there. Not that I needed it. I was like, for sure. But still got the shot. And we shot at some cool places. Shot literally in town alone.

[Adriana]

Is in a bikini, like, posing on this fence. And, like, children are walking.

[Ilana Clark]

I know. And it was, like, right by a mission, too. So there was. But then you don't see it, but I think it was good. I definitely felt a little bit bigger than I have in some of my other shoes. Just In a different season of life and whatnot. But still, they got such great images. And then the one that they posted recently was, like, I felt like a dark vixen on the beach.

[Emily]

I didn't have any siren.

[Ilana Clark]

You could see my boobies. I had to be slut slut. I had to cover them up. And then we got some good content. I felt really hot once again. And so, yeah, excited. They popped out. You guys got to see it all. Yay.

[Emily]

You look like a siren, dude.

[Ilana Clark]

Thank you.

[Emily]

You looked stunning.

[Adriana]

Because, like, with the rain, maybe it was a brown delay. I can't remember. Like, it kept getting pushed back until, like, the sun went away. And so it was. We're kind of like, oh, no. But then it turned so moody, the photos of you on that beach. And, like, the sand was, like, a dark sand, too. It was very edit, like. Like, well, I guess it is editorial already, but, like, you know, it felt artistic. Like, you're really moody and telling a story with that.

[Billie Jean King]

I love that.

[Emily]

God, that's great. Well, I can't wait to see the

[Adriana]

rest of the pictures, because only one's out right now.

[Emily]

Also, what we've been talking about in our group chat is all of the talk around Chapel Rowan, whom I famously thought was Chappelle Roanne when she first came on the scene. That's my bad. But, Adriana, you have a lot of thoughts about what's been happening. Can you explain a little bit and kind of.

[Adriana]

Yes. This retired professional soccer player, like, posted this story about how his stepdaughter got harassed by a security guard at the same hotel that Chapel was staying at because the girl's a fan and walked past Chapel to, like, see if it was her and didn't say hi or anything. And then apparently, the security guard, like, berated her of, like, you know, not respecting privacy. And so, like, this guy posted this story, and it went viral of, like, because, you know, of that Chapel already has, like, a reputation. And then they're like, she, like, hates kids and is so disrespectful.

[Emily]

She has a reputation of, like, kind of standing up for protecting her privacy. Protecting her privacy from, like, fans that, like, show up at her family's house or trying to grab her in public, and she talked back to paparazzi. Like, that's the background there.

[Adriana]

When that story got posted, I was like, I don't fucking believe that. I was like, no way. I was like, there's so much we didn't hear. Like, we never even. You never even said anything about Chapel? It was only security guards. That inherently, then, is the fault of the security guard, like, for yelling at a child. And so then we found out later that, like. Or Chapel posted a story. She was like, I didn't even see this kid. And this wasn't even my security guard. Like, this was not any part from me. You know, like, this was an outside thing. She was like, I love kids. I love my fans. And then the security guard, I think yesterday said, I take full responsibility.

[Emily]

Oh, my God. But she's already taken all the heat.

[Billie Jean King]

Mm.

[Adriana]

And it was like, this huge social trend of, like, making jokes about, like, I saw Chapel and Goody Proctor in the woods. I saw.

[Emily]

Yeah, Chapel in the woods.

[Adriana]

So, like, there was some fun shit like that. But then they also. This, like, agency estimated that 20% of these negative social posts were created by bots.

[Emily]

Jeez, that's awful.

[Ilana Clark]

Horrible.

[Adriana]

There's a hate train, and I refuse to get on it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Adriana]

And I think it's a successful woman who's also very outspoken of politics and social issues. Trying to tear her down.

[Emily]

Another one of our guests, Jameela, she just posted, like, on her grid being like, what did I tell you guys? I gave it two more years when I said this. That chap before chap. Everyone turns on her because as a woman, you can only be so famous before everyone has to, like, hate you and tear you down for a while. And that's happened to everyone. Anne Hathaway went through it. Katy Pitt, like, every, you know, every giant celebrity actress.

[Adriana]

It's a cycle. It's horrible.

[Emily]

It's a cycle. I think the weirdest part about this whole story that I. What I learned is that this. You know, it's this retired Brazilian football star who started all this drama about, like, his daughter. It's actually his stepdaughter because it's Jude Law's actual daughter. What? Like, it's also so. It's also funny and convoluted, but it'll die down soon, hopefully.

[Adriana]

Well, we'll see. But it's just. I think it's, you know, gonna happen again and again for women and such, and people just love to hate on a woman.

[Billie Jean King]

They love it. So.

[Adriana]

Ilona, the nation is wondering the Bachelorette thoughts.

[Billie Jean King]

Are you.

[Adriana]

Would you ever. Come on.

[Ilana Clark]

I'm getting a convinced as interesting people post more and want to see me more on it. Maybe it's the insecure side of me that's like, I don't know if the man I like would be on that show or if they'd even want to go on the show. Like, I think there's many men that really like me, But I don't know if a lot of them be like, hell, yeah, I'm gonna go on this reality TV show to get alona from what I've seen from other times. It can be men who are not my type go on there who are there for a purpose. Maybe not to find love. I think it would be hilarious, though.

[Adriana]

I think it would be. Yeah.

[Ilana Clark]

You guys tuning in every week? Peak entertainment. Peak entertainment.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ilana Clark]

I just think I was. That would be. The only reason I would do it is, like, how funny it is because I just. I want to find love. Like, that would, of course, is the main reason for it, but.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ilana Clark]

Is he gonna be on there?

[Emily]

Is he gonna be. There's no way to know unless you do it.

[Ilana Clark]

There's no way to know unless I do it. I guess again, I would need, like, people to executive produce for me and be in the process of picking the guys. We're picking the guys. Like, serious. To pick these guys out. I would need Joey.

[Adriana]

Joey could host.

[Ilana Clark]

I need Joey grass today. I need Alan burson to executive produce. Or Joey could host. Actually, giraffe wallow said she wanted to host as well. Could you imagine that? That'd be hilarious. Can I say problem is. Sorry. I would want this love island style.

[Emily]

I wouldn't want to miss a mom every day. I want something that's happening, you know,

[Adriana]

live feeds, live feeds, live feeds.

[Billie Jean King]

I don't know if it needs to

[Adriana]

be attached to the bachelorette. I think this is like its own show at this point.

[Emily]

This is a captain Kelsey. This is a flavor of love.

[Ilana Clark]

This is a. Ooh.

[Adriana]

What would it be called?

[Emily]

Get low.

[Adriana]

A man for mar.

[Ilana Clark]

A man for mar. Adrianna, sometimes I'm ripping the thought of also kissing somebody, not in, like, just acting, but in a real sense for

[Adriana]

the camera to watch.

[Ilana Clark]

Oh, no, no. I don't know if I can do that. And then you kiss many of them. I actually haven't watched the bachelor in a while. What do they do?

[Adriana]

A lot of them in one day.

[Ilana Clark]

Don't you kiss a lot of them in one night? You gotta kiss a lot of frogs, which I would love to do if there were not cameras on me. Cameras on me. I can't. Honestly, I can't be doing that with cameras on me. Would you guys want me to do it?

[Adriana]

No.

[Ilana Clark]

Perfect. I'm down.

[Emily]

I think it'd be fun.

[Ilana Clark]

I don't see.

[Adriana]

We've already talked about how she can't go on Love Island. Because sometimes Ilona can't be trusted.

[Emily]

She cannot be trusted.

[Adriana]

That like or like? You got to get me in the editing booth.

[Ilana Clark]

Take that out.

[Emily]

Well, say, don't be trusted to behave. That's what we mean.

[Ilana Clark]

We need somebody on the mic in the villa. Yeah. Alone. Get back up, please. Back up three paces. Put your tongue back in your mouth. Back up. Horny police are on their way in there.

[Emily]

You're going to jail. You're going horny jail.

[Ilana Clark]

So, I mean, maybe if the offer is good enough, maybe it's also.

[Adriana]

It's now. It's now a tough thing to follow,

[Ilana Clark]

but I would do it for you, America.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ilana Clark]

I would date these men.

[Emily]

Nobly date multiple men.

[Ilana Clark]

I will nobly date multiple hot, sexy men for you.

[Adriana]

Wow.

[Ilana Clark]

And my girls, so they watch. Our fourth Mars sister today is a living legend whose impact goes far beyond the tennis court. She reminded the world that women are just as capable as men when she won one of the most important tennis matches of all time. She is a proud lesbian icon who taught us that pressure is a privilege and has spent a lifetime making sure the next generation has the opportunity she's had to fight for. Welcome to the family, Billie Jean King. Hello.

[Billie Jean King]

Hello, everyone. How are you? The Mars bars, the Mars kids.

[Emily]

It's great to see you.

[Billie Jean King]

Golly, three. You live with three sisters. I only had a brother.

[Adriana]

I could say the same. Right back at you. I can't imagine a brother.

[Billie Jean King]

That's true. Anyway, it's great to see you guys.

[Ilana Clark]

It's lovely to have you.

[Adriana]

I heard that you're in New York.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes, I am in New York. I was hoping to be in LA with the Dodgers because the Dodgers just opened and I couldn't go. No, I don't feel great. I'm kind of like almost, but not quite. And I don't want to be around people. So, anyway, I hear you.

[Ilana Clark]

Well, thank you for coming on. I mean, this means so much to us. I've gotten to chat with you many a times. And while we're on it, let's get into tea time. Billy, we are so happy you're here. Tea time is where we just talk about the tea. And it's brought to you by Intuit TurboTax today. So, speaking of the Dodgers, you are a minority owner of that team?

[Billie Jean King]

Yes, Ilana and I are minority owners. Yes. Which is good because they have women. We're not the wife of the husband, usually, that owns it. And we're gay. And I think Mark Waldu owns the team. He's with a lot of other people, but he's the controlling partner. And I think he wants to have representation from every place. And, you know, both Ilana and I are from tennis, and Lana was number one in the world in doubles. And I have my own career. And so we both were in it, and we're. We're really investing in others. We usually just do women's sports. This was really good for us. It was great. It was an opportunity. Because I think it's important to have women owners in everything. Not just women's sports, but women's sports. We need a lot more ownership of everyone, and we want. We want to do better and better because otherwise there won't be the money and the wnba, what they just did, but their CBA is historical, which is fantastic. So, you know, I'm always, you know, when we met for dinner, Ilona, that I'm thinking about the business of rugby as well. I always think about the business side because that creates opportunities for the players now, but also for the future generations. And that's the thing I've always concentrated on, even when I was playing, which is probably pretty dumb for my career.

[Ilana Clark]

But how did you get this business side? Did you. Have you always been this business savvy or just kind of realized this is what I have to do for Longev.

[Billie Jean King]

I think a lot of it's from my first husband, Larry King, who I kept his name. He and I own tournaments and we own tournaments since the time I was 24 years old and I started to learn all the different aspects it takes to put on an event and have the competitors. And I realized that players, athletes know nothing about the business side. Usually they just know. Here's what athletes always say. I deserve this, this, and this. Really?

[Ilana Clark]

Why?

[Billie Jean King]

Anyway, I knew that if we weren't doing well financially, that my prize money would go into the budget. I knew that going in. And that's an interesting perspective, I think, because most athletes don't have that. They don't go in as part owner of something. Like if you played a rugby game or. Did you say a game or a match?

[Ilana Clark]

We are a match.

[Billie Jean King]

I thought so I want to get it right. I thought you were a match. It's like soccer's a match. I think, too, yes. This is so tough, all these different sports. But it's like, I don't think there's a lot of rugby players that go out that are part owners of their team, and it puts a whole different pressure on you. It's a different. It's having perspective, though. And I always tell athletes, learn the business you're in. Just learn it.

[Ilana Clark]

Exactly.

[Billie Jean King]

So when you ask for something, you know what you're actually asking for and what, you know, like, what's happening with the budgets, what's happening with everything.

[Ilana Clark]

When we had dinner together, your main point was like, so what is it you want to do after as well? Or what's a goal of mine? I think that's something even I. I've thought of, but I haven't thought of as I think deeply as I should. And it's something not, as you said, a lot of my teammates have thought of. Cause we're in this, like, amazing time of just playing sports, living our best life, but then it ends and, you know, your rugby skill might not really translate into the corporate world as much as we think.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I agree. I think that you've thought that through, but it doesn't. You have to really learn business. Like, you have to learn all aspects. And what costs. What are your biggest costs? Like, some of our biggest costs were actually, in the old days were officials. They go. The players go. What? Officials cost a lot. Now that we have automatic line calls in tennis, which is great, we've been. We're probably the leader of the technology of any sport, actually. And it's fantastic because on the wall, you know, you hear the. You hear that go out or out, like really fast, so it's great. And then they look at and go, oh, that's not right. It's the way it is, though.

[Emily]

What kind of business savvy advice did you pass along to Alona, you know, the stage of her athletic career that she's in, when you two had that dinner?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, some people don't want to be on the business side. And Alona was. I could tell her she was thinking, but I'm not sure. We didn't really get to the essence of Ilona. Whether I know she's interested, though, I can tell that. But I didn't know from her perspective what she would want to do.

[Ilana Clark]

I think that's something I'm still figuring out because it's very new in my space in rugby and where I've come to. No one else before me has done this, especially in America, which we have such an amazing athletic landscape. So when I did meet with you, it really got me thinking because I was like, oh, man, there's, you know, what is it I can do? Is there a league that I need to be looking at starting? Because you've been involved in love, volleyball, You've been involved in the PWHL starting, so you are really in on these. Always looking for new business ventures that especially usually around women's sports that you feel can take off, but it takes money.

[Billie Jean King]

A lot of these things we're doing probably will take 10 to 20 years. I probably. I definitely won't be alive, but I want to do it for the future. And I also have a Billie Jean King foundation and Women's Sports foundation that I definitely want to make money for. The foundations, particularly the Women's Sports foundation, which I started in, you know, 51 years ago. It was not called the Billie Jean King foundation, it's called the Women's Sports foundation because that's. I wanted everyone to feel like they're part of this, and I think it did. And it helped with networking, it's helped with friendships. It's helped. I've met more people at our dinner or gala, for instance, like, like Kendall Coyne, for instance, who came to us and said to Lana and me and said, would you help us start a proper pro league for women? They did have pro leagues. They weren't what they needed. The standard was very low compared to what they compared to the men. And of course, the women see what the men get in every way. It's not just money, it's also the way they're treated. Like. One of the funny things with the PWHL after it got started is that the women always carried their own equipment. So they're carrying their equipment and these people run up to them and say, no, no, no, give me your equipment. I'm here to carry your equipment. And they're going, oh, oh, I didn't. You know, they just can't think about. They're not used to that. So now they're treated just like the guys. And it's really important. We're in our third season. But when Kendall Coyne came to Ilana and me, she basically said, help. So what we did is it took about five, six years of just constant work. I mean, Ilana was on the phone every morning at 9:30 with the players. We got him to be an association first, which is what you have to do. That's what we did in tennis back in 1973. I mean, so we've been through this exercise before and it's a long haul. If you don't. And you've got to get the top players. If the top players won't stick together, it does not happen. That is number one, if they're willing to stick together, which the hockey Kids were. They were amazing. They were fantastic. That's one of the reasons they have a league today.

[Ilana Clark]

Something you talked about with me even was how in your day, when you wanted to create change, you had to talk to all these players and bring these players together because you knew more the power of we instead of just I. So there was times where you had to give things up or a bunch of you got together to give things up so that it was better for the next generation.

[Billie Jean King]

Correct. You just have to make these decisions as you go. But with women's tennis, which I think a lot of people have lost sight now because we're in, you know, it's 20, 26, we're talking about the 70s, and I think people have lost sight what tennis did. Actually, there were nine of us called the original nine that signed a $1 contract, $1 with Gladys Hellman. And that is the birth of women's professional tennis as we know it today. Okay, that started it. The reason Serena Williams made almost $100 million just in prize money, not off the court, is because of that moment in time. And then starting the association, getting the. Boy that was, I guess, get exhausted thinking about getting all the players together to have the top players be part of this association, which is really like a union, but we're independent contractors. So those things are just vital. They're turning points for the future. I mean, the reason the women's tennis is global, it's done so well, is because of those moments. Because you have to tee up things, right? If you don't get it started right, usually it won't work. And so it's really vital to just really think it through before you start. But you have to have, like, you'd have to have the top rugby players together if there's an association. Do you guys have an association? Worldwide association, all the very top rugby players? Do you have that?

[Ilana Clark]

I think we do. I don't know if it's as put together as it should be.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, maybe that's a problem too. Sometimes it's the idea is there, but it's not correct. So I don't know.

[Adriana]

That's your opening.

[Billie Jean King]

That's your opening.

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[Emily]

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[Adriana]

Hell yeah. Protect those eyes. This winter, the Athletic put out an article of, you know, the top 20 most paid female athletes. And I loved seeing the tennis players on top.

[Billie Jean King]

We're always on top.

[Adriana]

They broke it down between, like brand deals and actual earnings from their sports. And you could see just the bar was so much bigger for earning for their sports because of the prize money, because there is money in tennis. And that was just. It's just incredible to see. And if you kind of looked at all the athletes further down the list that didn't have much money in their actual sport, I can only imagine if there was money in rugby or. Well, now there is going to be more money in the WNBA that we are going to see that, you know, the bar get higher.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, the WNBA has made a huge difference.

[Emily]

And I mean, you are a part owner of the Sparks. And I would say that, you know, that dollar deal from back in the 70s was a domino effect for not just tennis, but all sports. You know, we have the recent. Exactly. In these recent WNBA salary negotiations. What is so important about this win for them?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, they're actually going to give money to the older players, like $100,000. Like to Sheryl Swoopes, for instance, in the 90s, who started the WNBA. And you know, they're pioneers for the WNBA. We have pioneers even farther back with WBL. A lot of leagues didn't make it. And that's why every sport starts, by the way, even the men's sports, they'll go well, but you have to have the money. It's first if you don't have the money. Like with the pwhl, Ilana and I knew if we didn't have oodles and oodles and oodles. And long term money. Long term term money won't make it. And most of the leagues today get started out of absolutely wanting to do the right thing. And we've been through it. It doesn't work. You have to really get that set up properly for long term. And then we had to make the players employees for a while because we wanted to do collective bargaining agreement. So we had to do from an association. We also had to create a union. They do it. It's a long haul. It's very tedious. It's the long haul. And you have to keep your eye on the ball and what you're trying to accomplish, because you don't want it just to get started. You want it to get started, but be long term and keep going forward. And the WNVA got started because of David Stern, who was the commissioner of the NBA back in the old days. And I was sitting at the US Open with him because he loved tennis as well, he played all the time. And I said, david, I have a request for you. Would you promise me that you will not let the WNBA fail? And that's a big ask. And he said, I promise. Because he's the reason that we even have a wnba, because he got the ownership to do it. He basically forced them because a lot of them got out pretty quickly once they had a team. So I just loved David Stern. I think he was a genius. He saved the NBA. This is another thing people didn't realize. The NBA was almost going under in the late 70s. No. Have you ever heard that? You didn't realize it was kind of iffy for a while. Right. So. Well, the reason is that they needed three things. They got Magic Johnson, they got Larry Bird. But the geniuses, David Stern, the three of them are the reason that the NBA survived. It takes a lot. But that's why I was asking about rugby. Like, where do you want it to go?

[Ilana Clark]

Billie Jean King is the kind of an OG Adidas athlete.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ilana Clark]

And you had a signature shoe with Adidas. Right. We looked him up beforehand. That's a stylish shoe. You could wear actually at all times.

[Billie Jean King]

You could actually wear it today. Well, that was the 1971 or 2. I was the first athlete to have a signature shoe.

[Ilana Clark]

Yeah, it was pretty awesome.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. But it just shows you how Adidas was on it. The next shoe was probably. I think maybe Chris Everett had one. But eventually. But Adidas started it with me. And I went to the factory and thanked all because I called him. I go, can I come over? I want to thank the factory workers and see everything, how a shoe's made and understand it. And they're going, athletes never done that. And I said, well, can I come or not? They said, yeah, come on. So I went and met all the factory workers in Lankersham. I'll never forget. They were so nice, and they taught me all about, you know, the last. I wanted to understand, how do you make a shoe? What's important, what do you think about? What's the difference between a male and a female shoe? Obviously, now we're back to more like unisex, which I love. I think it's great. But in those days, they were trying to figure that out. And so it's. It was really a great, wonderful experience to go there that early 71, 72, to meet with them, thank them, and just get to understand what a shoe is all about. I like to learn everything. I drive everybody crazy. So,

[Ilana Clark]

Billy, did you see recently that video of the coach, University of Maryland women's basketball head coach? She's, like, talking to her player.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, I love that.

[Ilana Clark]

You see that? Where she's like that? How were you? How did you like to be coached? And how did you coach people?

[Billie Jean King]

We didn't. We couldn't afford coaches. So I don't know.

[Ilana Clark]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

But I play. But I played other sports, and I like them to say it like it is. Whatever they're feeling, thinking it's fine. I didn't take it personally, which is really, really important. But what's the player? She loves the way this. This coach. You know what she's saying? You know what she's yelling at her in her face. I believe in you is what she was yelling. Now, if you don't know that. If you don't know that, you're thinking, this is shocking. This coach is right in her face. No, but she liked it. She loves the coach. She says, I want my coach to coach me hard. That's what I like. And every. I've coached also. And every person is so different that you have to approach them, every one of them, individually, who they are, what they're like. And she. She had given this coach permission to coach her hard.

[Ilana Clark]

I think that I like more of the honest approach to, like, was that a good rep or was that not like, you know, sometimes they gotta say, well, that I loved what you did here, but you need to do this. I'm like, no, was that bad? Just tell me. I'd rather hear it instead of, you know, preface it with a compliment. I love a compliment sometimes, but I'd rather like. I hate when compliments are too. Given that I start to not believe it.

[Billie Jean King]

I'm with you. It's that Hollywood like, oh, you're doing a great job. When you know you're doing a lousy job. Just tell me, you know, like, you know, I need help here. No, that's one thing about athletes. I think we are so open to learning and to be better that we'll just say it like it is. In fact, I have to tell people when I work in TV or other. Well, like this, even maybe a little. Is that. Tell me like it is. I can't get better if you don't. I want to get better. Please help me. Tell me instead of, oh, you're doing a great job. I hate that. When I was working in television all the time, it's like, you guys, that does not help me.

[Ilana Clark]

I had a recent story. I was at training and we were watching clips over, and on the kickoff, you're supposed to catch the ball in the air so that the ball is secure. And we were watching this film, and the ball bounced, but then she caught it on the bounce. But you don't want to do that. You want to catch the ball. And one girl went, good catch. And I was like, what are you talking about? Good catch. The ball bounced. You wouldn't have caught it. And she was a young girl. She's probably like 19 or something like that. But it's just a different style, Even different generations of coaching. It's a very more positive sort of style, even from when I was in basketball and whatnot. And so I was like, that wasn't a good catch. She didn't catch it on the full. And she was like, oh, well, yeah, but she caught it afterwards. And I was like, don't lie to him.

[Billie Jean King]

Catches when it hasn't touched the ground. It's in the air. Exactly. I'm with you on that. See, I like that. But I'm also older generation. And, yeah, everyone's very careful now with people. Yes, very. And each person's so sensitive. And so you got to be. The kids are. It's a different world. And so.

[Ilana Clark]

Absolutely.

[Adriana]

When I first saw the video of the coach with the tough love, I got nervous for the coach. I was like, is the media going to pick this up and say that this is a bad thing? Because I saw, like, you know, the subtitles of what she was saying. I was like, this isn't bad. This is the coaching. Like, I love to see, you know. But I put on subtitles.

[Billie Jean King]

That's great.

[Adriana]

Yeah. Someone, like, could hear it. And they put the subtitles on. And I was like, this is a beautiful moment, but people are gonna take. Might take this and run with it. Of like, look at this bad coach. She's so aggressive. And I got nervous. But luckily, it seems that the. It's kind of been encouraging a conversation of great coaching and tough love and how there's different coaching styles. But I think sometimes we get a little too complimentary or easy.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, we do. But that's also. You have to think about the genders. Usually they're much harder on the guys, but that's accepted because that's why they grow up. That's why they think it is. You know, in the locker room, they give the rah, rah. They're really tough on them. And so men grew up in a very different environment then. Unless, you know, my generation, we were more with the guys. And of course, I played basketball. I played everything. Tennis was not in our family at all. So I. I got lucky that a friend of mine in fifth grade said, do you want to play tennis? And I said, what's tennis? So I'm so glad I met Susan Williams. I still thank her every day. I go, it's your fault.

[Emily]

Big shout out to her.

[Billie Jean King]

But getting back to the coaching, I agree with you on what you're saying about how it is now and how it was. I'm glad they had subtitles to what you were watching. I wish I had seen that. But I could read her lips. I believe in you. I'm like, perfect, let's go.

[Ilana Clark]

Do you believe that there is some sort of differences between coaching, like women and men? I have had coaches who take a different approach, whereas men want more of the. You're gonna do this. This. This. Women sometimes want more. And I've seen this even on my own team of more of like, okay, wait, why am I doing that? Wait, so then I'll do this because of what? So do you think there should be. There is a difference.

[Billie Jean King]

I think there's a difference. I'm not saying I agree, but I think you have to go each individual coach and each individual athlete, because everyone is different. I'm probably more like a guy that way because I grew up so many decades ago. It's much different. There was so little for women. There was actually. There was nothing for us. Okay.

[Ilana Clark]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

Tennis was actually great. It was a global sport already. They had men and women since it started in the 1800s. So that was just pure luck. And people don't understand tennis really. They don't get it, what it does for them. And it's hard. It's hard. I've played a lot of sports. Tennis is really a lot to it. There's footwork, you're using all of your body. The thing I missed in which rugby is different but, but in soccer I couldn't use my hands, my hand, eye. I'm like, what's this? It drove me crazy that I couldn't use my hands, throw the ball or whatever because I love basketball, I love volleyball, I like the ball and the hand stuff. And rugby has it. I mean, you guys catch it, you run with it, you carry it. I like that. You lateral, you poo hoo, you know, it's great. But I gotta have both. I have to use all of my body.

[Ilana Clark]

You ever seen a soccer player try to throw a ball? It's kind of funny sometimes if they're just purely soccer players and you ask them to like throw a ball one handed. Kind of funny really. It's just something because it's so different. They're so skilled with their feet and their arms don't really come into it. So I've had some teammates who are like soccer players and they come into rugby and you're like, okay, we will work on that.

[Billie Jean King]

Now I'm gonna ask Julie Foudy and you know, Abby, get him to throw a soccer ball. Throw the ball. I'm gonna ask him. Little soccer beauties, they pick it up

[Ilana Clark]

quick, but it takes some time. Now when you were growing up, what were the stereotypes about women athletes and like how did you combat them or were they, did they kind of stop the sports from growing because of these people just trying to, I don't know, push their stereotypes upon you?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, they definitely would push stereotypes upon us, but they also didn't have any, they didn't have any opportunities for us. There's just hardly anything and. And looking back, I know now how lucky I was to be in tennis. Actually it was amateur. Although we're called the best players in the world. I'm like, that's not amateur. To me that means I'm having fun, it's a hobby. But no, it was a rough time. It was really rough. I remember being at a baseball game. It was a aaa. We didn't have Major league in California when I was a kid. And of course I played a lot of baseball, had a lot of baseball cards and I was out watching the Los Angeles Angels and the Hollywood Stars. I'LL never forget it at Wrigley Field in Los Angeles, and it was aaa. Steve Bilko was a big hitter, I think. And my heart sank because I realized that I will never be able to play baseball because I'm a girl. I was devastated going home. In fact, the first night we went to the Dodgers game, you know, after we became owners, part owner of the ownership, I remember walking out there, you know, into stands and looking out and that same feeling. My heart dropped and thinking, you know, like, there's a baseball league now and women want to play baseball. They don't want to play softball. A lot of kids, I played softball because I was pushed into it because I couldn't. They say girls can't play baseball, so you should play softball. So I played softball. So it was just a shocking time in those days. But it just shows you expectations are so different, which I like. I like that women have higher expectations. Why shouldn't they have the same expectations of anybody? Why not go for it?

[Ilana Clark]

A quote that my sports psych uses with us constantly, that you are famously the creator of Pressure is a privilege.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes, I did create that.

[Ilana Clark]

Tell me about that. Because that I think is a quote that has extended from your tennis time to now, and I think it will continue to be used. And I mean, he uses, like, pressure as a privilege. He has a diamond drawing up there. He has all these things and, like, we hear it constantly. Can you, as the creator of that and who it's so still used today, what does that mean to you?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I like it when I hear it, because I do believe it, but then I get all, like, weird inside, like, oh, God, I did say that. Kind of like, you have to understand my generation, where we're from, you know, I get real girly on that, which is probably not healthy.

[Ilana Clark]

Did you come up with that off the bat or did you pre plan that?

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. Lindsey Davenport. We're playing Federation cup, which is Fed cup, which is World cup, which is now called the Billie Jean cup, but it's the World cup of women's tennis. Okay. And we're playing against Spain, and Spain had a great team in those days. We're playing at Mandalay Bay in Los Angeles, Vegas. I'll never forget it. Lindsey Damport, who's 6:3 and of course, I'm always looking up at all the players now because they're all so much taller than I am. And she comes over and she goes. And she had to play a raunch of Sanchez Vaccaro, who always gave her fits. Okay. She hated playing her. And she's getting all twitchy, and, you know, I know how she gets. So anyway, she comes over and she looks down at me because I was sitting on the bench and I got up and I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Help me, help me. And I went, okay, champions adjust. And pressure is a privilege. And she goes, oh, I like that. And she did go on to win that match, but it just came out of my brain because I was trying to help Lindsay. Like, how do I help this person get calm, get focused, beat the shit out of the other player, kind of, you know, get him. And, like, anyway, it worked. And she said, oh, thanks, that's good. I like those. Okay, good.

[Emily]

So.

[Billie Jean King]

But she won that. So I was happy. But that's where it started. It's just off the top of my head like that, trying to help a player because I was coaching.

[Ilana Clark]

I love it when I think of it, because I think now even I've had so much added pressure on me in terms of, like, fame and people watching this pressure at times to keep the sport on my back, to keep. To teach people about rugby sometimes feels like it's. A lot of it is on me. So I take it as a privilege, though. I'm so honored that people think of this, of me, and that I have this role of being the kind of guide guard. I don't know what it is the guide of rugby.

[Billie Jean King]

The.

[Ilana Clark]

I show rugby to the world, but it is a lot. Sometimes I have to be prepared when I go in the stadium that a lot of people are watching me and they're watching the tackles I make or miss. But I say that quote a lot of times. I'll write it in my journal. Because it's a privilege that not a lot of people get to do this. And it's a lot, but I think I carry it well. So thanks for saying that one time.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, you do carry it well. I mean, we should be very thankful we have you, that you're kind of the Pied Piper of a lot of things.

[Ilana Clark]

That's it.

[Billie Jean King]

Body image, you know, and also helping your sport and getting people to know about it. Because I remember being at dinner with you and you said to us, to Lana and me, you guys, I know I'm the most famous rugby, but I'm not the best player. That's what you said to us. Now, I don't know if you're being kind and thoughtful or what, but I thought that was very big of you. First of all. And I don't know if it's the truth though, but you are the one that people do know, so you do have that responsibility. But I don't. But I also thought you were very, I don't know, just compassionate and thoughtful. And it's not just about you talking about, you know, I'm not the, I'm not the number one player. So if you're not the number, who is the number one player, would you say?

[Ilana Clark]

Thank you for asking.

[Billie Jean King]

Who do you think the number one player is?

[Ilana Clark]

So the number one player right now, I'd say is Canadian Sophie De Goody. She's my size. Just this amazing athlete, runs. I mean, she's a playmaker. She does. She can kick, she can do all the things I would say very close to her from England, has many great players. Ellie Kildon's up there from England, Portia Woodman, who just retired from New Zealand. But yeah, that's a funny thing I always say to people is I ask people, you know, who's the best rugby player in the world? And they'll say, well, you are. And I'm like, wrong. It's these other amazing women. She's very good. I'm very, very good at it. I'd say I'm one of the best sevens players in the world. But 15s is a different level. But there's these other amazing women I wish you all knew about. But because of my social media, that's what they know me as, which I don't mind, but I would love for more people to know about those other players who are amazing.

[Billie Jean King]

We're also talking about the sevens and fifteens when we were having dinner and how do you play differently? Obviously there's more space with 7 than 15. I can figure that out. But. And then I think I asked you and I don't know if this is fair or not. If you had to choose, which one would you want to get behind and make totally the money maker for the players, everything. Would it be this? Do you think the sevens are more exciting to watch or the fifteens?

[Ilana Clark]

I think for Americans it's seven because it's a shorter game. Rules are really quick and fast. We love those excitement. 15s is a very law driven game. Even my sister's like you would agree you like watching sevens a little more.

[Adriana]

Actually I've so lona. I watched her do 15s through senior year of high school to senior year of college and then go into sevens and I was so glad when she went into sevens because I just, I Loved the quickness. And it was just. It was more digestible almost for me at that time. But her doing the World cup this past year, I really, I grew to appreciate the. The attention that is needed for 15s, and I think it's because you are going there just to see two teams. It creates like such an environment of excitement, you know, instead of like only a quarter of the stadium is paying attention because they don't care about everybody else. You know, there's so much happening that I think my tune started to change a little bit, maybe more so appreciation for 15s. But I do understand, like marketability for sevens, especially if that is the Olympic form, that that might be the way to go, especially in America.

[Ilana Clark]

So we'll see. And I gonna continue promoting and hopefully this next Olympics will be another way that we really reach sevens to a greater audience.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. They're gonna have sevens in 28.

[Ilana Clark]

Yes. Okay, I'll see you there, Billy. Right?

[Billie Jean King]

I hope so. I plan to be there.

[Ilana Clark]

Well, I. I want to talk to you about your lovely wife Ilana, who I got to meet when I first met her in the restaurant. She shakes my hand. She goes, alana. And I was like, no, no, my name's Alona. She's like, no, my name's Alana. And it's spelled the same, except I, L, A, N, A. And I was like, okay, right, no, right, of course.

[Billie Jean King]

Can you imagine being at dinner with these two? Oh, great.

[Ilana Clark]

It was something. Yeah. She's from South Africa. Lovely woman. Can you tell us a little bit about your love story? And also just you, you know, coming out as a lesbian, which I heard was not on your own terms, correct?

[Billie Jean King]

Not on my own terms. It was 19, it was 81. And my. I had a. I had an affair with Marilyn Barnett. And she got lawyers to sue me so she could, you know why? Money. And so it was public, so I didn't have a choice. My lawyer said, do not say a word and deny it and deny it. My publicist said, deny it. I. I'm going to tell the truth. And they said, you cannot. It'll ruin your career. I said, well, my mom was really great. She used to say that I own self be true, which is, I guess, Shakespeare. And I thought about that. I went, you know what? I'm going to lose everything, but I'm going to tell the truth. I don't care. And Dennis Wasser, my lawyer, was furious. And they're not happy. And my publicist, and I didn't care. I told my publicist, Pat Kingsley, I said, just, I'm doing it, so would you please get a press conference organized? We didn't have social then. And she said, okay. I must say, she got the whole office behind it. And I went to LA airport, went to the conference, came out, told the truth. My parents were there. They're very loyal, but they're very homophobic. They were, because they're past now. And so that was. That's a whole nother discussion. But I did lose everything overnight. Within 24 hours, I lost every endorsement. And I was getting near the time I was going to retire, finally get some lifetime endorsements, so I'm finally going to get some money. That went away in 24 hours. And so I just thought I still did the right thing. I told the truth. And was it fun? No, it's been horrible. But I think it helped the future. I think it helped the LGBT community. I think it helped others. I know people come up to me all the time and say, thank you. I was 10 years old, 15 years old, whatever, when you came out, changed my life, and it helped me so much. And so when, you know you've touched the hearts and minds of others and it's helped them, then it feels very different than it did when, you know, just losing everything overnight. I mean, that was a horrible time. But you do learn who your true friends are, too. And that is a pretty awesome thing to happen in life, because you know how we all think we have all these friends. That's when something like that happens. But now players and people and athletes and everyone are coming out all the time, and nobody goes, oh, great. That's great. Congratulations. I'm thinking back on those moments, and I'm thinking, thank you, God. Thank you for letting it be better today than it was. But it still has a long way. We still have a long way to go. Everybody should be accepted. Like, we had the first transgender play in tennis in 77. And Renee Richards, Dr. Renee Richards, she became our ophthalmologist. So, you know, it's just. You never know what's going to happen when you meet another human being, how they're going to touch your life or how you're going to touch their life. So it's important to stay alert. Muhammad Ali and I talked about that a lot. That. Pay attention to every single person. You never, ever know how you're going to touch their life or they're going to touch your life. And when you look. And I met Ilana. She was a ball girl, actually, in South Africa. And I knew her. I Knew the family. I knew her. I was close to her family. Her sister Merle, of course, is in my life now a lot. And I'm a lot older, so I didn't, you know, she's just a nice kid. But later. And her mother wrote me a letter, would say, would you talk to Ilana? I don't think she's happy playing tennis. Would you just. So we went to dinner and this is like 79 or 80 now. We're both old. And I got interested then. That's when I. And she was interested. So it was a long haul on that. But we've had a great life. And she is the. She's the love of my life, without any question. She's been great.

[Ilana Clark]

And you two are a power duo. Cause she works heavily with you and is also like a really good. I mean, behind the scenes, she's doing so much.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, she's much smarter than I am. And she runs. She's the CEO of our company and. Oh, no, no, no. I just talked to her before I talked to you guys, and she's had like 10 calls already. She can't keep up. We're just. We're always trying to help women's sports. Really?

[Ilana Clark]

How lucky to find that. Do you have advice for us as we're looking for that love?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, when you're older, if you're really old, you know what we talk about Sometimes love is not as old as I'm, but just my journey. We talk about. We don't want any drama. No drama. Okay. But when you're younger, there's a little more drama. Usually. I think values are really important. Where do you both stand on values? That's huge. You have to decide what's important to you. Like, I like a high work at. I like someone who works and they don't have to make a lot of money, but they have. I don't want to be with somebody that doesn't like to work because I like to work so much. You know, if you don't match up enough, it won't work. And I think liking the same things. So, you know, we play tennis two or three times a week. And she's great. She puts it right on my racket. Because I'm old. I can't run. I've had knee operations. I've had a. You know, but it's so much fun to hit a ball. I cannot tell you. And she plays with this other guy for. So she gets her workout in and then she runs every day. So I like a person who Likes sports. We have to like sports. Come on, we go to games. She's at the Dodgers games right now. You know, she left. She went. And I think you have to be kind and good to each other. I think kindness is really. Kindness is free, by the way. People forget that. They think they don't want to be kind. Why not? Just also, I think it's important to give in fast on arguing. I give in really fast. I don't like arguing. It doesn't work. So I just go, I hear you. So you got to make sure they know you hear them.

[Ilana Clark]

Yeah.

[Adriana]

So do you not believe in opposites attract?

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, but I think you have to like the same things. I think, enough. I'm not saying everything because everybody should have their own thing as well. But I think, don't you think you have to, like pretty much a couple of things at least that you can kind of do together?

[Ilana Clark]

For sure. I mean, we're all single here, Billy, so we're still figuring that out. But that sounds like a good plan. For sure. We'll let you know soon.

[Billie Jean King]

I think values are huge, and you're not going to win the arguments all the time. And it isn't 50 50, by the way. Sometimes it's 100% Ilana. She gets what she wants, and other times it's 100% mine. If you notice in life, if you really having a discussion, and if someone basically. I don't like the word win in this particular situation, but if they're more right, it's 100% for them, no problem. And you want to be able to say, that's great. I think it's really important to compliment your spouse or your loved one or whoever you're with. Yeah. Because when, like, I don't think Ilana's appreciated enough, so I'm always like, her being celebrated the other day was fantastic and her talk was amazing because I didn't. She wouldn't tell me what the talk. She wouldn't. But it was. She was fantastic when she was up there. So she's a very good speaker, actually. She's underrated. You know how people always go, oh, Billy. And I go, no, no, no, no. That's Ilana that did it. No, I didn't do it. And so I get a little. That's where I have trouble. I get upset because I don't think she gets enough attention or appreciation. That's the word. So I don't know. I think it's important, don't you? I know you've had some relationships, probably you're this old, so you're not that old. Don't you think? What do you think's important from your age group?

[Ilana Clark]

I think everything you said. I think that one thing Olivia once said to me that was so deep was that you can talk, talk, talk as much as you want, and you can have conversation. But I think what she said was, what's really important is, yeah, you can

[Emily]

communicate until you're blue in the face, but you need to, like, comprehend one another and to understand each other fully,

[Billie Jean King]

you have to hear what they're saying. Right.

[Emily]

You can communicate, but if you're not hearing it or it's just that doesn't work.

[Billie Jean King]

You're correct.

[Ilana Clark]

She's so smart.

[Emily]

Everyone write that down. I am correct.

[Billie Jean King]

All right, Olivia, you're the smarty one on this one, I guess.

[Emily]

I know it. Don't we know it. Telly drummer. Well, I have a question for you, because we are huge readers over here. We love reading. We love talking about books. Are you reading anything right now, or is there anything that you gravitate towards or could recommend to our audience?

[Billie Jean King]

I just read Dawn Staley's book, which is great. Frederick Douglass.

[Ilana Clark]

Okay.

[Billie Jean King]

By blight. Which I love because I'm a history major. Oh. Did you know I've gotten back to college, so.

[Emily]

Yeah, we did.

[Billie Jean King]

Okay. And right now I'm reading the Gay Revolution they made. You know, it's part of this class I'm in. They put me in, and I'm like, this will be great. I'm learning the LGBT history. It's been. It's fantastic. I knew some of it, but this is much more granular for me. It's good and right. What's her name? It's Fetterman, I think is her name.

[Ilana Clark]

Have you ever read a book and you're in it? Were you in this gay history book?

[Billie Jean King]

Actually, I was in a class.

[Emily]

Oh.

[Billie Jean King]

Anyway, this is the one I'm reading right now, and it's heavy. Man, that's a thick book. The Gay Revolution.

[Emily]

Revolution.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. It's Lillian Fatterman, and she's kind of the, I guess, historian for the community, which I had no idea. I'm just learning everything now.

[Emily]

Speaking of learning everything now, you returned to Cal State LA to finish your history degree that you started 60 years ago. What was behind the decision to do that? What made you go back? Why was that important?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I think everybody has to understand why I left. I left because I wanted to be number one in the world, and you can't be number one in the world and going to school, okay? So Larry and I talked about it at the time, and he said, you have to go. I mean, this is your dream. So went to Australia, because in those days you couldn't afford it. So I was given enough money to go there. So that was a gift. And so I left. And so it's been bothering me, though, because I like to finish. It's like a match, you know, you're shaking hands and you finish, you finish a deal, you finish. I hate not finishing. So anyway, I'm like, oh, God. I started thinking, well, maybe I should go back to school. I haven't finished school either, you know, And I go, I wonder how many years I have. I think I had two years. So I must say, some of the office kids were great. Like Marjorie Gatman said, I'll look it up for you. Don't worry. So she looks at him and Sundays, you've got three years of college. Whoa. I'm definitely going back, if they'll have me, you know, I mean, I have to get back in, right? And so I'm back in. And I'm in it. But I graduate in May. I'm giving the commencement speech. I guess that's part of my credits.

[Emily]

I don't know.

[Ilana Clark]

To your classmates.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, my classmates. Right. Everything's pretty virtual nowadays compared to going to class. So that's another thing. I'm not as crazy about that I like it. I think when you see people, it's much more creative. I don't know. There's something special about when you're with each other. Yeah, it's really good, but. So I'm really excited because. Just keep. And after that, I'm going to go back to piano lessons. I've already got my. Yeah, because piano was my first love. Piano was my first love. I don't have it, though. Yeah, I don't have it. To be really good, like, a classical pianist would have been great. Don't have it, so. And I knew that very young that I didn't have it, but I love it.

[Ilana Clark]

You just had to be too good at tennis, huh?

[Billie Jean King]

God gave me more. And remember my younger brother who passed last year, played 12 years of professional baseball, Randy Moffat, 10 years with the San Francisco Giants as a pitcher, so. And my dad was really good at basketball. Oh, he was so good. We loved basketball first, so that's tough.

[Adriana]

You have a lot of loves.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I had a class, but I had a class, you guys, in college, about women's sports and inequalities and all that. And I'm reading the books, and I'm reading a book, and one of them. Two of them actually had. I was in them, and they weren't right. And I'm like, oh, God, I don't know what to do. I didn't do anything. But I'm just telling you, they weren't right. The information was incorrect, and this other book was totally correct. It's so interesting. But I read about seven books for that one, and it was a lot, so. But I was. How would you like to be in a history book and not have it right, though? I was a little irritated.

[Ilana Clark]

Oh, I'd be very irritated. I hear you.

[Billie Jean King]

Doesn't that make you scary about history also? History. Only 15% is about women. Just like statues. We have about 2% of the statues. And if we do have a statue, it's not a real woman. It's a mermaid or something like that. So there's so many areas. So many areas we need to perk up here for the. For the women. We need to get absolutely. We need equality. I'm just big on everybody being included. Equality boys, everybody. I don't want anyone slighted. So it's. Yeah, but can you believe these numbers? It's pretty pathetic.

[Emily]

But that's why you are the icon that you are. So, I mean, Billy, thank you so much for coming over to the House of Mar. It was. It was an honor to have you. Thanks for joining us in this living room virtually. So everyone, please make sure you follow Billie on Instagram at Billie Jean King. And go, Dodgers.

[Ilana Clark]

Go, Sponsors, go. Ilana Kloss, go. Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

Thank you, Leona. Thank, Ilana. Thank you for being on our. Thank you for being on our show, though. You were on our show.

[Ilana Clark]

Of course.

[Billie Jean King]

Welcome to the party with Julie, Abby Wambaugh, the two of them. That's why I was asking about them, if they paid attention to you. But anyway, it was great seeing you, and I actually was on that episode, too. So we're all in the studio. That was a fun.

[Emily]

It was fun.

[Ilana Clark]

Well, we thank you. For us, it was a house party over here with you.

[Billie Jean King]

You guys are so.

[Ilana Clark]

And if anyone is gonna say my name wrong, it's I will let Billie Jean King. Nobody else alone.

[Billie Jean King]

I got it. Ilona. Everyone out there, it's Ilona.

[Ilana Clark]

There we go. Thank you, Billy. Thank you.

[Billie Jean King]

All right, guys.

[Ilana Clark]

Bye, Belly. Bye, kids.

[Adriana]

Guys, let's head on into the book nook. This week, we're talking a lot of adaptations. All right, I think two have really hit. Hit the news number one 13 going on 30. They're making a new one of that.

[Emily]

They are.

[Adriana]

Is that a book? It is actually a book. Did I have to look that up? Yes, I did. And our girl, Emily Bader. Yeah. Emily Bader's gonna be in it and so is Logan Lerman. My thoughts. With a lot of adaptations, three adaptations. Is it needed?

[Emily]

Is it needed?

[Adriana]

Is it needed?

[Ilana Clark]

Interesting, right? For example, Harry Potter's doing a new adaptation.

[Emily]

Another re. Re adaptation.

[Ilana Clark]

Is it needed? When the movies were that good and iconic?

[Emily]

I'm like, perfectly done, right.

[Ilana Clark]

Is it gonna be just the same?

[Adriana]

And also, is it putting more money into a horrible woman's pocket?

[Ilana Clark]

She who must not be named.

[Emily]

Exactly my thoughts.

[Adriana]

And I know people are saying, don't watch it.

[Billie Jean King]

Right.

[Adriana]

I do understand that might be hard for me.

[Emily]

Right.

[Adriana]

I know. I'm saying, horrible woman putting money into her pockets. And I'm like, how come?

[Emily]

But you wanna watch it. I wanna know what it's gonna be like.

[Adriana]

What if I just, like, download it illegally and then so it's not giving

[Ilana Clark]

to me and I can still watch it.

[Adriana]

Maybe I watch it in like 5,000 parts on TikTok.

[Emily]

Right. I just think there's so much being made with existing IP. We have a 13 going on 30.

[Adriana]

Who's gonna take Throne of Glass?

[Emily]

Yeah. And there's so much new stuff that needs to be made that I would

[Ilana Clark]

bet, like, I would love to see.

[Emily]

And yet we're making stuff that already exists. I remember when I was working in Hollywood and I was, you know, I was assisting Elena Smith, an incredible showrunner, and the scripts that were coming across her desk were for, like, you know, toy movies. Like things that other toy companies had.

[Ilana Clark]

They were like, hey, we have this

[Emily]

toy that's been existing and we wanna make a movie out of it. Can you write a script about it? It's like, there's so much original storytelling out there. Let's make those movies. Let's make that now. We're remaking stuff instead.

[Adriana]

There's so many adaptations because there's so much good material out there, like books and such. But then when it's a readaptation, I'm like, it's already had, like, Vampire Academy,

[Ilana Clark]

you know, that needs a remake with me in the writers room.

[Adriana]

We need a third producer.

[Ilana Clark]

That needs a third try. It needs a third try. I think the only way the Harry Potter, I think they need to add some characters and some themes that were taken out, like in the books. The poltergeist peeves, I think, is his

[Emily]

name yes, the poltergeist.

[Ilana Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. He has a lot of. He does a lot of things like he actually. And some things where the book. They just left him out. He's the one that started that and he's the one that kind of of meddled in this. So I would love if they added him to it instead of it just being the same. Because even when I was looking at the trailer I was like, okay, that looks like the Hagrid from the book from the other movie.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ilana Clark]

So I think I'd be intrigued if they could actually even go more from the books because it's a show.

[Billie Jean King]

That's a good point.

[Adriana]

I don't remember.

[Emily]

I gotta reread the books. But I remember there was whole things with Hermione like saving the elves or elves rights and there was whole storylines. The kitchens beneath the great hall that we never see.

[Ilana Clark]

Oh yeah.

[Emily]

In the movies and just in the books. I think that's true. If they did a deeper. More kind of like to the book tweezered version of the actual book, that could be interesting. Yep, that's my thoughts. I think I should rewatch 13 going on 30 as an adult. I think I watched it maybe too young and it didn't affect me the way that so many people love that movie. So I think I need to revisit it now that I am 30. She's 31. 30 plus 30.

[Adriana]

Plus 30.

[Ilana Clark]

30. A year ago. 30, 30, 22.

[Adriana]

When did you turn 30?

[Emily]

And now that I'm 30.

[Ilana Clark]

A year and more ago. Two years ago. No, a year and a half ago. And now that I'm 30, I'm turning 30. She's up there in age.

[Billie Jean King]

Thank you.

[Ilana Clark]

Thank you so much for hanging out with us and the legendary Billie Jean King. Do not forget your racket. And don't forget Alana Clark, boss Billy's beautiful wife. See you next week.

[Adriana]

Thank you so much for coming over to the House of Mar. A Wave original.

[Ilana Clark]

Be sure to watch subscribe on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcast. Plus follow the show on social media at House of Mar for clips and

[Emily]

behind the scenes content. We'll see you next time.

[Ilana Clark]

Bye.

[Adriana]

Thank you.

[Ilana Clark]

Bye.

[Billie Jean King]

Bye.

[Adriana]

Don't forget your shoes.

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