
We're talkin' 2003's Daredevil starring Ben Affleck, and here to help Paul, June, and Jason break it all down is writer and Daredevil expert Ed Brubaker. They discuss the playground fight/dance scene, the many times Matt Murdock mentions he's blind, the streets that look like a sitcom set, Coolio's subplot in the director's cut, and so much more. (Ep. #75 Originally Released 11/05/2013)
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Paul Scheer
From origin to legend.
Jason Manzoukas
I need to become a symbol. I need to become Batman.
Paul Scheer
Become the hero.
June Diane Raphael
Someone's gotta step up, build the legacy.
Jason Manzoukas
Let's get to work.
Paul Scheer
You wanna get nuts?
Jason Manzoukas
Let's get nuts.
Ed Brubaker
I'm allergic to nuts.
Paul Scheer
Lego Batman. Legacy of the Dark Knight.
Ed Brubaker
This is my favorite part.
Paul Scheer
Out now on PlayStation 5, Xbox Series XS and PC. Rated E10 for ages 10 and up. Need to pay a friend back for
Jason Manzoukas
festival tickets or a morning coffee run. Apple Cash makes it simple.
June Diane Raphael
Just tap plus in the Messages app
Jason Manzoukas
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Paul Scheer
No need to jump between apps or search for usernames.
June Diane Raphael
It's a private and secure way to send money.
Jason Manzoukas
Send cash right in the chat with Apple Cash. Apple Cash services are provided by Green
Paul Scheer
bank member FDIC terms apply.
Jason Manzoukas
Let me tell you something, people. When you have a bad hire at your job, it wrecks everything, okay? It costs you time, it costs you money, it costs you momentum. And when you're a small business, you can't afford that. You need a good hire and you need it right away. But finding great talent isn't easy. So that's where LinkedIn's new hiring pro can screen candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applicants, you spend time talking to the right ones. Started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com valuable terms and conditions apply. Now, I want to talk to you about a man who knows no fear of plot, story or compelling characters. We saw Daredevil, so you know what that means. Now it's time for failure. Not just be a hater. Could you know, you wonder, how did this remain?
Paul Scheer
Let's wallow in the mediocrity of subpar art.
Jason Manzoukas
Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made? Hello, people of Earth, and welcome to how did this get Made? I am Paul Scheer, joined as always by my two co hosts, Jason Manzoukas. How are you, Jason?
Ed Brubaker
I'm good, Paul.
Jason Manzoukas
And June, Diane Rayfield. How are you, June?
June Diane Raphael
I'm great, thanks, Paul.
Jason Manzoukas
We have a very special treat today. We have writer extraordinaire Ed Brubaker joining us. You might know him from the criminal series Fatale, Captain America and Daredevil, which is very excited to have you. You are an expert.
Paul Scheer
Actually, for this movie, I'm pretty much an expert. Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
So Daredevil, not a failure of a movie. We should say that right at the top. Like, as far as.
Ed Brubaker
You mean in terms of making money?
Jason Manzoukas
Okay. Financially, made a lot.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
It spawned a sequel with not Daredevil with Elektra spinoff. Spinoff.
Paul Scheer
It was a backdoor pilot for the Elektra movie series.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, now there's two movies. There's two cuts of. There's a theatrical cut and the director's cut. Ed, you've watched them both?
Paul Scheer
I watched them both in the last 24 hours, yes. Did you lose your mind a little bit? Yeah. They're both very hard to pay attention to. I mean, you've seen the theatrical.
Ed Brubaker
It is real. Real boring and slow. Like the fight scenes, shockingly, are so slow and clumsy.
Jason Manzoukas
The fight scenes look like they date badly. Yes, specifically. And this is the guy.
Ed Brubaker
Both actors and fight Sc.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, I mean, don't. The whole movie looks like there's a big fight scene between Elektra and Daredevil. And that looks like they were not touching. They're not really fighting. It looks like they were.
Ed Brubaker
It looks like they shot the. Let's just do it 60% right now. To rehearse.
Jason Manzoukas
Right? Exactly.
Ed Brubaker
And they were like, hey, you guys know something? We were actually rolling on that. I think we got it.
June Diane Raphael
I have to say, I think we're good. I have to say something up front.
Jason Manzoukas
This is gonna blow your mind. I know this already.
June Diane Raphael
I loved it.
Paul Scheer
Holy shit. I don't think I ever heard that from a human being. Wait.
June Diane Raphael
I loved it.
Ed Brubaker
What are you talking about?
June Diane Raphael
I loved it. I enjoyed it.
Ed Brubaker
Wow. In what way?
June Diane Raphael
I enjoyed that scene. You're talking about in the seesaw. Yes.
Paul Scheer
No.
June Diane Raphael
Yes, I did.
Paul Scheer
No seesaw scene.
June Diane Raphael
I love the seesaw scene. I love them together. I teared up when she died.
Ed Brubaker
No, you didn't.
June Diane Raphael
Yes, I did. I was hoping against hope she would come back somehow.
Paul Scheer
Well, she got a sequel.
Ed Brubaker
She did.
Jason Manzoukas
She got a sequel.
June Diane Raphael
I didn't even know about this sequel. I'm excited to see.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, my God.
June Diane Raphael
I really enjoyed it.
Paul Scheer
Wow.
June Diane Raphael
And here's what I think I connected to the most. The fact that. And again, I don't know superheroes. I don't know the comic book world, but the fact that he was.
Ed Brubaker
You don't know that world.
Jason Manzoukas
That's not a world below tornadoes.
June Diane Raphael
Way below tornadoes.
Ed Brubaker
Wait, what recently did you know a bit about gorillas?
Jason Manzoukas
She knew a lot about gorillas.
Ed Brubaker
Gorillas. So do you know, you know, less
June Diane Raphael
about tornadoes and gorillas?
Jason Manzoukas
There is a graph on our Facebook page that is kind of monitoring what
Ed Brubaker
you know about and comic books at the bottom of the list.
Paul Scheer
You were the target audience for that movie, I guess.
June Diane Raphael
So here's what I loved. I loved the idea that this superhero. And again, I don't know a lot about superheroes. I love that his power came from a disability.
Ed Brubaker
Mm.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
June Diane Raphael
I thought that that was so amazing and kind of beautiful and that it wasn't this sort of, like, otherworldly thing that had happened to him or some.
Ed Brubaker
No activity.
Jason Manzoukas
There was a little bit because, like, he.
Ed Brubaker
That was radioactive waste. The stuff that he gets splashed with in the face and in the. In the Daredevil origin story that isn't in this, he's, like, saving an old man from being hit by a truck. I love.
Paul Scheer
In this version, his dad causes the.
Ed Brubaker
How crazy is that? Yes, how crazy? Like, in this version, they make it so much. In the. In the. You know, the origin story of Daredevil, he's that little kid. His dad is the same. His dad is. And in this one, too, like, they name his dad the devil rather than battling Jack Murray.
June Diane Raphael
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
Battling Jack Murk. There's such weird changes they make to the story, but regardless, there's an old man crossing the street who's gonna be hit by the truck.
Paul Scheer
Oh. Blind man about to walk in front of a truck.
Ed Brubaker
Who's the butti. And Matt Murdock runs, pushes him out of the way himself, gets in the accident. The toxic waste spills on his eyes, and he is blinded, rescuing somebody. But in this one, his dad drives him out by revealing he's a bad guy.
Paul Scheer
His dad's like, I'm not. I don't do that. Yeah, and then he's just, like, roughing a kid up.
Ed Brubaker
Runs by toxic waste factory in the middle of Hell's Kid.
Paul Scheer
And did you see? He, like, causes. He causes the truck to actually beer and then get sliced with a forklift so the shit splashes on him. Are we allowed to say shit?
Jason Manzoukas
Yes, you can say whatever you'd like. This is not.
Ed Brubaker
Keep it classy, Brubeck.
June Diane Raphael
We're allowed to. We just don't like it.
Ed Brubaker
I said wet blood fart on this podcast.
June Diane Raphael
See, I loved that choice, though, that it was the father. You know, his father betrayed him, and that's why he was running so willy nilly.
Jason Manzoukas
But it also seemed weird because his father betrayed.
Paul Scheer
He did run very willy nilly. He had a skateboard.
Jason Manzoukas
He had a skateboard.
Ed Brubaker
Why not use a skating away?
Paul Scheer
He could have skateboarded away.
Ed Brubaker
Why was he skating up? Why was he skating down that alley? I couldn't figure that out either.
Paul Scheer
In the director's cut.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, here we go.
Paul Scheer
In the director's cut, he shows up at his dad's work looking for him to show him his straight A's.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, makes more sense.
Paul Scheer
Well, you can see his report card. Yeah, it just splashes down there with straight A's and all, like perfect attendance,
Jason Manzoukas
but that makes more sense.
Paul Scheer
And then he shows up at his dad's work and the guy's like, your dad hasn't worked here for years. And then he like immediately skates to where his dad is roughing a guy up.
June Diane Raphael
And I'm like, see, I have to say I did not understand that the radioactivity of the chemical was making.
Paul Scheer
I thought that's why he has the enhanced radar sensibility.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, that's why all the things come in so clearly.
June Diane Raphael
I just thought in my mind when I was.
Jason Manzoukas
You think that all blind people are like that?
June Diane Raphael
No, not at all. I just thought he was this. He had sort of committed so hard to being blind.
Jason Manzoukas
But he woke up in the hospital room and it was immediate.
June Diane Raphael
I know he didn't have time to
Jason Manzoukas
make that conscious choice.
Paul Scheer
There is a certain amount of.
June Diane Raphael
But your senses do get heightened. That is a reality.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, but his get heightened to a superhero's level.
June Diane Raphael
Okay.
Ed Brubaker
You know, and then the other thing that happens.
Paul Scheer
Most blind people don't turn into acrobats.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, exactly. I mean, immediately he was.
Paul Scheer
He did the little kid wire fu.
Ed Brubaker
Like, well, here's stick. Like, how does he not get trained by stick? He trains himself. Really?
Paul Scheer
So there was the early. Before Frank Miller, there was no stick.
Jason Manzoukas
The original origin.
Ed Brubaker
I guess that is how I know
Paul Scheer
he just like learned how to fight because he grew up in boxing rings and stuff or in boxing gyms.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, my issue with this movie is it's kind of what a lot of people say about superhero movies, which is like, ugh, I don't want to see an origin story. I just want to see them get into the action. But they neither do an origin story to its completion, nor do they tell an effective criminal story. It's kind of like. It feels like the middle of something bigger. It's just like the kingpin stuff is so kind of slap dash.
Paul Scheer
He's in like five minutes of the movie, the theatrical version, and he has nothing to really.
Jason Manzoukas
It just doesn't. I don't get what the villain is. I mean, really, it starts to really get together like an hour and 20 minutes into an hour and 48 minute movie.
Paul Scheer
The first time I saw this movie, I didn't see it in the theater because I was working at DC at the time. I was working on Batman or Catwoman or something, but I knew people that had Gone to see it. Like, DC had been invited by Marvel to go see this. And Marvel. The guys at Marvel, like, Fox made this movie. It was before the Marvel Studios, even
Jason Manzoukas
though they still have that cool opening.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, they have the cool opening. But I remember, like, one of my editors at DC said this movie is what everyone says is wrong with superhero movies. Like, he basically kills a guy, the first guy he goes after also. Okay, this is a thing that I
June Diane Raphael
never noticed about it because he's wrestling with this moral compass.
Paul Scheer
I love that. But, okay, the opening court scene.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Scheer
What the fuck is going on there? There are two defense attorneys. They're representing, like, the rape victim, and the other people are representing the rapist. Where the fuck are the prosecutors?
Jason Manzoukas
That was the weird thing. What is this trial?
Paul Scheer
And is this a civil case?
June Diane Raphael
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
Was that the OJ Jury? He already got off on the criminal part, and she's trying to sue him, and they can't get that either.
Jason Manzoukas
And it's like. And then, like, Foggy, when they walk out of the courtroom, he's like. He's like, oh, man, he hired a really good lawyer. That lawyer didn't do anything. He's like, hey, I object to that. And it's like. And then all of a sudden, he was off. Like, he was just like.
Paul Scheer
I mean, did you love the comic book Dutch angles in the courtroom? That was really the only time they had like. Like dramatic angles, like Batman, like the Batman TV show.
Jason Manzoukas
Static room A. No fight scene. Just in court. Like, plaintiffs testifying.
June Diane Raphael
That is what's, you know, unclear about the Daredevil. Like, it's. It seems in one sense, he's very suspect of the justice system and how it works. Like, he doesn't believe in it in the court system, and yet he's always calling for the police and, like, that end of the justice system. It's not as though the whole thing is corrupt and he's the only vigilante. It does seem like he thinks the cops can be of service.
Paul Scheer
You know, I think the way it was always portrayed is that, like, Hell's Kitchen, everyone's corrupt, even the cops, kind of. So the cops are on the take. But the idea that Daredevil, like, would that scene in the subway when he's chasing Cassada.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, yeah.
Paul Scheer
And then he's, like, strangling the guy. And then the train noise, like, he's never. Like, he doesn't really, after an entire lifetime with this power that the subway train will make this the first time he's ever been in the Tunnel, apparently.
Ed Brubaker
That's crazy to me in New York City, that noises. Like, in this. Like, it's almost like Daredevil's great weakness is noise. Noise.
Jason Manzoukas
It's like his kryptonite is noise and understand.
Ed Brubaker
Spoiler alert. We end up with a finale set piece on a church organ.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
So that it can make as much noise as possible
Paul Scheer
when Bullseye's banging the church.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, my go.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, I want to also talk about, again, going back to this Cassada rapist.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
He does so much damage in that bar and seemingly kills everyone in that bar. And when there was only one person he was after. And he doesn't even effectively kill the rapist because he has to chase him into the subways. There are a lot of people died in that bar that are seemingly innocent, have not committed a crime.
Ed Brubaker
They're like, bad guys. It's a bad guy bar. It's a bad guy bar.
Paul Scheer
It's a bar. In the comic, it's the bar where the bad guys hang out. I don't know that he killed them.
June Diane Raphael
I think they're just down for.
Paul Scheer
I admit my eyes started to glaze over during that scene. Cause I was just like, wow, there's a lot of stuff going on here. And I'm like, how is the. How is the pool table on fire?
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah. All of a sudden, the pool.
Paul Scheer
And then he's, like, standing on the pool table, like, on fire. And the other guy got away somehow. The only guy.
Ed Brubaker
The only guy he came after gets away and he chases into the subway. They have a confrontation, realizing that if
Paul Scheer
a subway train comes by. But then he fucking kills him.
Ed Brubaker
No, he lets him die. He lets him die. The guy, Cassada falls onto the train.
Paul Scheer
There's a scene where they're clearly paying homage to in the old Frank Miller comic where Bullseye's on the train tracks and Matt Murdock is such a. Like, justice and law guy that he can't even let Bullseye die. He has to save him. But he's letting this rapist go. Oh, yeah. Which I agree. I mean, sure. I mean, a professional assassin is worth saving a rapist? Not. Yeah, exactly, but.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, you know, apparently the director was really into recreating a lot of shots from the comics. And there are moments that you kind of see that. But again, this movie is something that you have this origin story. It's kind of like the first 20 minutes, half hour. Then you go into this rapist story that's kind of not, I would argue, not 100% tied to kingpin and then Elektra comes in and then you're dealing with that. And then once Elektra's father gets. We gotta get into the Elektra stuff. Today's podcast is brought to you by our friends over at Squarespace. You know, I love Squarespace because with Squarespace, everything that you need to succeed online is in one spot. From claiming your domain to building a beautiful website, promoting your work and taking payments. It's all there. Whether you're just starting out or ready to grow easily. Create a standout site using designer templates or AI with drag and drop editing. It makes everything so easy. I have so many sites. The dinosaur site, the how did this get made site, the Paulshear.com, it's all there. And they're all completely different because Squarespace allows me to adapt my style for each one of those sites into a format that they make look good. Does that make sense? I make sense to me. Look, whatever you want to do, offer services, book clients, get paid, it's all in one place with Squarespace, right? You can even do scheduling invoices and they have email tools built in people. It's great. I love Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com bonkers for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code bonkers to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Mint Mobile plans are only $15 a month. I mean, what's the catch? Well, here's the thing. There isn't one. There's no gimmicks, no gotchas, just unlimited talk, text and data, fast, reliable coverage on the nation's largest 5G network, and an award winning care team that makes Mint Mobile a catch. I mean, honestly, what else do you need? You can bring your current phone number and phone with you. Plus you can choose from 3, 6 or 12 month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill to get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a go to mintmobile.com HDTGM that's mintmobile.com HDTGM cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.comHDTGM that's it. There's no catch. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 a month new customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gig on unlimited plan. Additional taxes and fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Summer travel is coming. And wouldn't it be a dream that if you are going to a different land that you could easily speak the language, right? That Would be amazing. But you're like, oh, I don't know. Probably should have learned it back in high school. No, no, no, no. You shouldn't have learned it back in high school. And if you did, you might have even forgotten it by now. But for 10 minutes a day, you will be able to speak better than you ever thought possible. If you are using babbel, because Babbel can help you have real conversations in as little as three weeks. Lessons are quick, practical, and built by more than 200 language experts. And instead of memorizing random vocab, you're learning phrases when you're ordering dinner and. Or asking for directions or even talking with locals. You know, I've been using Babbel, and I absolutely love it. What I love about it is it's a little gamified. I want to come back every day. I don't miss a day. And I love feeling comfortable. And it's working. It is actually working. So if you have summer travel coming up, now is the time to start. So you can actually use what you learn on the trip. Right now, babbel is offering listeners up to 60% off. Go to babbel.combonkers. that's Babbel. B, A B, B, E L dot for up to 60% off. Rules and restrictions may apply. The romance really takes a center stage in this. Like, for every superhero movie, the romance is really front and center.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
And. And it's. It sort of seems like they were like.
Ed Brubaker
It's a lot like the note.
Paul Scheer
Well, yeah. So you read about this. Like, I. Because when I watch both. Both cuts, the director's cut, which is a half an hour longer, first of all, has an entire storyline with Coolio in it. Coolio.
Ed Brubaker
What?
Jason Manzoukas
Yes, yes. Coolio plays.
Paul Scheer
Coolio plays a guy, a murder suspect junkie who is framed by the kingpin for the murder of this woman. And Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson defend him. And it's a whole storyline that ties all these plot lines together. Yeah. You see Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson actually being lawyers and investigating and meeting with their.
Jason Manzoukas
Because that seems like. And it also is a bigger payoff from what I've read about the director's commentary to tie in the kingpin. It seems like at the end, it's like, oh, yeah, Kingpin hired him a lot more.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. But what isn't in it much more and is there's less of it is the romance. Like the scene on the rooftop when he's making out with her and he hears Like a fight. And then she's like, stay with me. And then they're making love. That scene's not in the movie. That is never make love. Like, they kiss, and he hears it, and she's like, I got it. He's like, I gotta go. And she's like, stay with me. And he's like, I can't.
Jason Manzoukas
She's like, stay with me.
Ed Brubaker
I want to have that sex scene I've ever had in my life.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
To be fair, they did get married after that.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, I know.
Paul Scheer
This is it.
Jason Manzoukas
And by the way, I think that
June Diane Raphael
may have colored some of my viewing, too, is knowing that this is where they found their love.
Paul Scheer
Well, I'm a shipper for them, too.
Ed Brubaker
Is this where she fell out of love with Scott Foley?
Jason Manzoukas
Well, here's the thing that people.
Paul Scheer
That had happened when she became a bigger star than him. Right?
Ed Brubaker
Is that right? I don't remember. Maybe. Guys, here.
Jason Manzoukas
Here is the. Here's a little gossip for you. When he was shooting this movie, he was still with JLo.
Ed Brubaker
Whoa.
Jason Manzoukas
People don't know. Yeah. This could be a little Mr. Mrs. Smith action going on here.
Paul Scheer
I feel bad talking about that.
Jason Manzoukas
That they are. That they could.
Paul Scheer
It's like, it's okay to talk about Matt Murdock cheating on every girlfriend that he's ever had, but Ben Affleck can't.
Jason Manzoukas
This is.
Ed Brubaker
Yes.
Jason Manzoukas
He is a sacred ground.
Paul Scheer
This.
Ed Brubaker
It's also interesting to watch him in a cowl here and knowing that all the drama that's going on with Batman. Well, I want to cowl, but.
Paul Scheer
Are you gonna read his quote?
Jason Manzoukas
I wanna read this quote.
Paul Scheer
Why he wouldn't be the next.
Jason Manzoukas
This is the quote. He goes. In November 2006, Ben Affleck stated he would never reprise the role. Having felt by playing a superhero in Daredevil, I have inoculated myself from ever playing another superhero. Wearing a costume was a source of humiliation for me and something I would never want to do again.
Paul Scheer
Whoa. But now he has kids. He didn't have kids then. Now he has kids who want to see him beat up Superman.
June Diane Raphael
He's not in that costume. I mean, you don't really see him.
Jason Manzoukas
And by the way, that's a good costume. I think the Daredevil costume, out of all scenes, is more realistic. Oh, really?
Ed Brubaker
I didn't like it.
Paul Scheer
But he can turn his head, which is something I've still never been able to accomplish in a Batman. Even after pointing out, like, I want to be able to turn my head, he still never turns his head. Into Batman.
Ed Brubaker
And I agree with you, it does look very real world.
Paul Scheer
Costumes someone can would have made.
Jason Manzoukas
I will tell you what does not look real world is every sidewalk, street corner they're on. It looks like the Seinfeld sets.
Paul Scheer
When the Seinfeld go out and say the same thing.
Jason Manzoukas
It looks so shitty.
Paul Scheer
Studio set, right? But it's downtown la.
Jason Manzoukas
Some of it is. I think some of it was on set. So it looks so fakey.
Paul Scheer
It looks like how I met your mother.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, like why?
Paul Scheer
And I suggest how I met your mother. I always.
Jason Manzoukas
No offense to sitcom streets, but they are not. They are not the high budget that million dollar movie.
Ed Brubaker
Guys, please don't freak out about how we're coming down on sitcom streets. Yeah, we're not trying to start a warm.
Jason Manzoukas
Do Hym fans, do not strike out against this podcast. We cannot have you guys against us guys.
Ed Brubaker
We do not want to go to war with the H I y m
Paul Scheer
vs h I d M Y G O H I.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay. Yes.
Ed Brubaker
Himya versus Hiddekum.
June Diane Raphael
Why does he sleep in that?
Paul Scheer
So he needs a sensory deprivation thing. And this is the coolest thing in the director's cut, actually, as he's getting into it. The first time you see him getting into it, he hears a crime that's too far away for him to get to, and that's the Coolio murder. And he has this vision of the murder happening on the floor. Like it's crawling towards him as he likes sinks into the thing and it's really creepy.
Ed Brubaker
Ooh.
Jason Manzoukas
So like, he is like. That's more interesting. Like, see, that's what you were missing.
Paul Scheer
Well, you. You would like. I mean, you're never gonna love the Daredevil movie other than June, but like, guys who've ever read the Daredevil comic are never gonna love that movie. But the director's cut is closer to what you expect from the movie. It's still got too many stories and too much.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, it seems like a lot to put like Kingpin, Bullseye, and Elektra. Those are all giant characters for a first movie where you're not even really growing with the character.
Paul Scheer
And also, did it not seem weird to you that the movie opens and then like within three minutes you're in a flashback that goes the length of the entire movie.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, it's really odd.
Paul Scheer
The last 20 minutes are the only part that's not a flashback.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
And the other thing is, in that original, I feel like they were like, you know what? Nobody's gonna watch this opening with the dumb Church.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
And stick with this stupid movie. So I have a bunch of flash forwards where we see stuff that's gonna happen in that opening scene where it's like. Yeah. Where you're coming in and it's like. It's like. Then there'll be, like, little images that are gonna be in the movie later as if to say, like, don't worry. We know this is opening on a shot of a city, but don't worry, guys. There's gonna be fights and bullseyes in this. It was really crazy.
Jason Manzoukas
Like, a dumb way to be. Like, we gotta keep them entertained. It's like 30 seconds into the film.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. They're showing you glimpses of fights from the last 10 minutes of the movie.
June Diane Raphael
Now, what was going on with all of the medicine he's taking?
Jason Manzoukas
Well, he's hurt.
Paul Scheer
He. I think that was. That was something that they. That they added for the movie because they wanted to make it feel. Because he's supposed to just be a real guy like you and I, and. But he's leaping around all night long and, like, getting in fights with people. And by the way, he's going to be in the.
Jason Manzoukas
Leaping at certain.
Ed Brubaker
Certain times in this movie.
Jason Manzoukas
He's, like, flying like him and Elektra. They don't, like. They have superhero jumps. They're not believable.
Paul Scheer
There's that scene at the end where he's fighting Bullseye and he leaps, like, 20ft up into the air. In the comics, he's usually like. I mean, it's a comic book. He leaps more than you should, but he's got stuff that he's swinging, propelling him.
Ed Brubaker
They have that scene. I feel like they have that scene in Nolan's Batman, too, where he has to recover from the fights that he has because. And those two.
June Diane Raphael
He's like, taking, like, Vicodin or something.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, he's taking Percocet. Was one of my little.
Paul Scheer
I love the idea that he was just taking them like that. Chew pills in movies.
June Diane Raphael
Really, really upsetting.
Paul Scheer
Hey, have you ever taken a dry pill?
Jason Manzoukas
Never. And just chew it up?
Paul Scheer
Have you ever accidentally bit an aspirin? It's the worst feeling ever.
Jason Manzoukas
Was that in the director's cut, him chewing an aspirin. Oh,
Ed Brubaker
guys, have you ever pulled out your own tooth in the shower?
Paul Scheer
I totally forgot that.
Jason Manzoukas
What was that?
Paul Scheer
No. Okay.
Ed Brubaker
Why does he p. Pull his own tooth out?
Paul Scheer
I have had a lot of dental work in the last several years. If you're pulling a molar out, you're going to the dentist. The next day, you've got to get another molar put.
Ed Brubaker
That made no sense.
Paul Scheer
He's gonna develop TMJ problems.
June Diane Raphael
Here's the other thing. If he had been dealing with that. When you have pain like that in your teeth, you can't focus on anything else but that pain until that tooth's gone.
Ed Brubaker
Unless you're Daredevil Man.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, he's able to block out tooth pain, but not the subway for his entire life.
Jason Manzoukas
Again, the subway was a shock to. And I felt like in this movie, the rain was also like. He's like, oh, the rain kind of helps me out here. It seemed like that was the Raiders need the rain.
Paul Scheer
He doesn't need the rain. In the comics, radar sense works. The only time his radar sense doesn't work if there's nothing to bounce off of. So if he's, like, above the skyscrapers, like, falling from a plane, he would have no idea where he's going.
Jason Manzoukas
Right.
Paul Scheer
But his radar sense, in the comic books, at least, basically, he has, like, a 3D picture. And he can see the reason it's an advantage is because he can see what's in the next room.
Jason Manzoukas
Right?
Ed Brubaker
He can kind of see.
Paul Scheer
Otherwise, it would just be like, oh, he can see behind him, too. Which would be better.
Jason Manzoukas
I also want to talk about. Really get into the meat of the romance here. This Elektra.
Ed Brubaker
First of all, I want to just wrap up the one thing about Cassada. When he lets Quesada get killed and Joey pants, Ben Urich shows up, and he's like, oh, it's Daredevil. And they're like, how do you know that that's an urban legend? And he's, oh, I don't know. And he flicks his cigarette and Daredevil has apparently left a gasoline double D in the ground.
Jason Manzoukas
Which, by the way, I was like,
Paul Scheer
what the fuck is in the comic?
Ed Brubaker
Right?
Jason Manzoukas
The way it should be reflected in his glasses is the mirror image, but in his glasses, it's the forward image, which someone just pointed out is a. Since it's a digital effect, that's a $10,000 mistake. Like, somebody did not figure out the right way to put in his glasses.
June Diane Raphael
That just, to me, didn't seem like the Daredevil I know and love. I feel like he's not.
Paul Scheer
He's not that cocky.
June Diane Raphael
He's not that cock like you were.
Jason Manzoukas
When did he have that chance to like. Yeah, to like.
Paul Scheer
But by the way, also, if you're gonna be Daredevil and let a guy die, that's the Time to not sign up.
Ed Brubaker
Exactly. Yes.
Paul Scheer
Sign your work. When you've, like, when you've got therapist hanging from the thing outside city hall with a confession, like, then you're like, by the way, this is done by Daredevil.
Jason Manzoukas
You killed someone in cold blood.
Paul Scheer
That's when you run away.
Jason Manzoukas
Now, my eyes definitely glazed over a few times in this movie. And I'm wondering, did they ever draw the parallel of how whatchamacallit Ben Urich had he found out it was Matt Murdock.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, the Kevin Smith scene.
Paul Scheer
Oh, the Kevin Smith scene.
Jason Manzoukas
Just from that, he's able to figure it.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah. Because he sees. He meets Matt Murdock and Matt Murdock is like, hold this for a second. Hold this for a second. He looks and he goes, oh, nice color.
Paul Scheer
Nice color.
Ed Brubaker
And then he sees it again.
Paul Scheer
No.
Ed Brubaker
And then he sees it again with Kevin Smith, also a Daredevil writer.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. And then he. Yeah. Who I guess, you know, wrote the. Wrote the stuff that the imagery was taken from.
Jason Manzoukas
And Kevin Smith is the reason why Ben Affleck is Daredevil, apparently recommended him. Originally, the part was offered to Vin Diesel. Really? Yes. Oh, sorry. No, I'm sorry. I got confused. Bullseye. But Matt Damon was one of the people. Matt Damon, Yes. I had a few Daredevils. I got a few. But yes. Well, here it was. Let's see, it was Matt Damon, Ed Norton and Guy Pierce were all up for Daredevil. And Cuba Gooding Jr. Wanted the lead but was never approached.
Ed Brubaker
I would have loved.
Paul Scheer
I think all those people would have been just as good as Ben Affleck. Except for Vin Diesel would not have been a good Derek.
Jason Manzoukas
No.
Paul Scheer
Having seen him as a lawyer in that other movie.
Jason Manzoukas
I will say this, though. I don't think that Ben Affleck is bad in this movie.
Paul Scheer
No, I don't think so at all.
Ed Brubaker
We're all doing. We all are doing like. I don't think he was that bad at all.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, no, me neither.
Ed Brubaker
We're all doing high pitched. We're all doing high pitched voice.
Jason Manzoukas
He's an Academy Award winner, Jason.
Paul Scheer
That means we're lying.
Ed Brubaker
That means we're afraid of him.
Paul Scheer
He would not. I would not have picked him for my choice, I don't think. But I actually. He doesn't ham it up or anything. No, he doesn't ham it up. He plays it pretty straight. The director's cut, he's actually really good in, I think, because there's. There's a lot more of him in it. And apparently that was the original studio cut that everybody was happy with. And I think that's the one that Kevin Feige, who now runs Marvel Studios, was working on this movie in a lower capacity as a producer under.
Jason Manzoukas
Before they realized that, like, superhero movies are the future.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, exactly. And before Kevin got to the point where he could actually be in charge and go, let's not just like, you know, let's follow the comics a little bit more and build our own world. But. But, like, I read something like Affleck had to wear contact lenses, that he was actually blind in all those scenes, which is kind of amazing.
Jason Manzoukas
I actually, for one sketch in Human Giant, I wore those milky because my eyes were supposed to be burnt out. And it is the most frightening thing ever to put things into your eye and then you're blind. It is.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, God.
Paul Scheer
Shapes even.
Jason Manzoukas
You're just seeing one. Like, it's basically, like, white. Like, somebody just spray painted over your eyes. Like, you can see white but nothing else.
Paul Scheer
Oh, that's scary.
Jason Manzoukas
So it is. He did a good job.
June Diane Raphael
I think that must have been what I really connected to, because to see a man be so vulnerable like that and to be blind and he's also a superhero to me, and maybe other women feel this was like, what could be better? What could be better? Because he's also. I know he can see certain things,
Paul Scheer
and he's like a pro bono noticing
June Diane Raphael
his feelings on, like, women's look.
Paul Scheer
He's very Atticus, too. They took payment in, like, a wheel of cheese or something.
Jason Manzoukas
My favorite joke of the whole movie, which is when Foggy and Matt Murdock are in their office and, like, they're complaining about people paying him in fish and cheese and, like. And Favreau's like, yeah, I'm expecting Lamont from Sanford and Son to come in here. I was like, that's a really funny joke. I don't know. I enjoyed that.
Paul Scheer
That's totally improv. That had to be right.
Jason Manzoukas
Really made me laugh.
Paul Scheer
Exactly. Like Favreau.
Jason Manzoukas
And by the way, Favreau, lucky to get two sidekick characters in Marvel films.
Paul Scheer
Oh, yeah.
Ed Brubaker
I was wondering when I realized he was in this, I was wondering, like, oh, is this the beginning of, like, him and Kevin's relationship that then leads to. That might have Iron Man.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
What did he do that got him? Iron man?
Jason Manzoukas
Like, Jumanji 2. Yeah. Zas roostra or whatever.
Paul Scheer
Oh, yeah, that thing.
Jason Manzoukas
That's. Yeah.
Paul Scheer
Because before that, his last movie was Elf.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul Scheer
But then look at the Captain America movie. It's the Russo brothers, she wouldn't have picked. And everything I've seen from that movie looks amazing.
Ed Brubaker
It looks badass.
Jason Manzoukas
I can't. I'm jazzed about that.
Ed Brubaker
I'm so excited.
Paul Scheer
Well, let's not get off topic because we'll. I was gonna say is. So the director's cut version, apparently they screened that and every woman in the audience connected to the romance and wanted more of that. And that's why they cut a half an hour of the movie and they added in a. But the director's cut doesn't have like two or three scenes that are in the theatrical. That are all the romance scenes.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, it makes sense because there's some weird ass shit in there. Like, he pretty much meets Elektra and then the next scene he's like, I've always wanted to bring you up here to the roof. It's like, wait, you just met her. You've always wanted to bring her to this roof. In Hell's Kitchen, there's a couple weird connections like that. And then for me, I'm not as well versed in Elektra, so you guys can maybe help with this. It seems to me, like, where are her superpowers coming from?
Ed Brubaker
Because she is a ninja.
Paul Scheer
She's a trained ninja.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay, but is she a trained ninja? Is she a trained ninja before her father is killed? Because it seems like then she has like that little montage scene where she's just.
Paul Scheer
In the comic book. She was Matt Murdock's girlfriend in college, pre law. And her dad was a Greek ambassador who got murdered during some sort of terrorist standoff. That was very similar to the Munich thing where it was like these guys seized the building he was in and he stood up at the wrong moment and got shot. And then elektra leaves, and 10 or 15 years later, she comes back and she's an assassin who used to be a ninja.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay?
Paul Scheer
And that's how she's introduced in the comic as Matt's ex girlfriend, who's now a bad girl.
Ed Brubaker
She's like, she's a villain.
Paul Scheer
She's a villain.
Ed Brubaker
She's a villain.
Paul Scheer
For many years, she's a villain. And then she goes, good, because she realizes Daredevil is Matt Murdock, who is the one love of her life. And so she starts to become good. And in the comics, she actually dies trying to save Foggy.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, really?
Paul Scheer
That's why Bullseye ends up killing her in the comic. That image of stop from killing.
Ed Brubaker
Putting the scythe through her, coming out
Paul Scheer
of the director's Cut. That's actually in the movie.
Ed Brubaker
It's in the. It's in the regular. It's in the movie, too.
Paul Scheer
No, the director's cut. There's a wide shot. Oh, see the. The back of her shirt sticking out?
Jason Manzoukas
Because they were trying to get a PG 13.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, trying to get a PG 13.
Ed Brubaker
Because that's like a very. And then the violence is much more intense.
Jason Manzoukas
But that's a weird thing. And it's like you're taking images from a lot of disparate things and going, oh, we'll recreate that image. But it's out of context in the
June Diane Raphael
world of the theatrical cut. So we're just to believe that she has these skills.
Paul Scheer
Doesn't she mention when they're walking on the street that her dad sent her
Ed Brubaker
to a different sensei every year?
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay. Yeah.
Paul Scheer
She's had kung fu training.
Ed Brubaker
She goes, where'd you learn to fight like that?
Paul Scheer
Exactly.
Ed Brubaker
And she goes, my dad. Something, something. He makes me train with a different sensei every year since I was fighting.
Paul Scheer
But now each one just hangs a bag of sand.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
Didn't you guys love all of her?
June Diane Raphael
I mean, that had to be her doing all of her.
Jason Manzoukas
Wake me up inside.
June Diane Raphael
She was amazing.
Jason Manzoukas
Open up your eyes.
Ed Brubaker
All the emo bullshit music.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, she was already kick ass.
Jason Manzoukas
But here's my issue with that character. And it's a big, big flaw, which is. And again, maybe I missed it. I don't think I did.
Paul Scheer
I don't think you did.
Jason Manzoukas
Bullseye clearly. Bullseye clearly killed her father.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
And then she is blaming Matt. Like she's. Like she's shooting or Daredevil.
Paul Scheer
I think she saw it.
Jason Manzoukas
How did she not see it there?
Paul Scheer
I know, but it's very clear that she.
Ed Brubaker
She's on the ground. She sees it go over her head, but she.
Paul Scheer
She didn't notice when she was another guy. He throws the throwing stars as he's standing on the motorcycle, which for some reason.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes. Can still steer. Yes.
Ed Brubaker
I could spend an hour talking about just bulls.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes.
Ed Brubaker
And the insanity that was this character.
Paul Scheer
The peanut on the plane or the pecan.
Ed Brubaker
Just a woman.
Paul Scheer
What was that?
Jason Manzoukas
Yes.
Ed Brubaker
That was crazy.
Paul Scheer
How do you kill someone with one nut? Was it a nut allergy?
Ed Brubaker
She choked. No, she choked on it.
Paul Scheer
She choked on something that small?
Jason Manzoukas
It hit her so hard in the back of her throat.
June Diane Raphael
That's what I imagined.
Paul Scheer
She couldn't. She just died of shock.
Ed Brubaker
He's a real. He's a real jokester.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, I kind of liked his performance. I thought it was so insane.
Paul Scheer
It was like hiring Orson Welles to play with him.
Jason Manzoukas
I felt like he was so overdue.
Ed Brubaker
I felt like.
Jason Manzoukas
It was like. I feel like he's like, I'm a cartoon. Like, you know, it's like. He's like, oh, yeah, this is a cartoon movie. I'm a cartoon.
Ed Brubaker
He has a move, which he does throughout the movie, that I feel like he went up to the director beforehand and he was like, hey, you know what? I figured out the thing on my head. I'm gonna treat it like a nipple. So I'm gonna, like, touch it. I'm gonna touch it. Like, ooh. Yeah. He multiple times, like, fingers the bullseye on his head, and he's, like, excited. That and the sound effect they put in for when he puts his jacket on, there's, like, a rattlesnake sound.
Jason Manzoukas
I was like, what the fuck is going on?
Paul Scheer
He might have a rattlesnake in there that he throws accurately.
Ed Brubaker
I would love that.
Paul Scheer
That would be amazing.
June Diane Raphael
How does he get that Bullseye imprint in the comic books? Or is it ever.
Paul Scheer
That was not. That was. That was for the movie, actually. In the comic book, he wore a costume that had a bullseye right there. And then when the movie came out, actually, my friend Brian Bendis was writing the comic at the time, and to try to make Bullseye match the character from the movie more, he had a scene where, like, Daredevil beats the crap out of him and then takes a rock and, like, carves the bullseye. Oh, really? Which I thought was really badass at the time.
Jason Manzoukas
I kind of. I don't mind that scar on his head.
Paul Scheer
I thought that was really cool because you can't have a lot of people in costumes running around in a movie, especially when you've got, like. Yeah. Daredevil's costume looked, you know, somewhat real. Less ridiculous than you'd expect.
Jason Manzoukas
It was just red leather, and it just was like a cowl.
Ed Brubaker
But no, an Elektra is in a costume. Like, she never wears the signature kind of red, kind of Electra costume.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. She doesn't have her headgear anything.
Jason Manzoukas
And Michael Clark Duncan is dressed like Kingpin, who.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. Basically looks exactly like Kingpin, by the way.
Jason Manzoukas
Best performance. Great. Michael, when he gets his knees kicked out in the final fight scene. Oh, my God, that scream. I want that image just frozen for life.
Ed Brubaker
That's somebody. Somebody make a. Is it a gif or a gif? A gif of that for Paul, please.
Jason Manzoukas
Of just his knees being broken and that scream that. Like, that Monster scream. But like, he's an intimidate. I liked it when he took. When he got went mano a mano with Daredevil.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
Because that's always. That's always a great fight.
Paul Scheer
Kills Matt Murdock's dad. That's like that first the Keaton Batman movie, it turns out the Joker, it's like, no, the Joker didn't make Batman.
June Diane Raphael
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
You don't have to tie it.
Ed Brubaker
You don't have.
Jason Manzoukas
Everything has to be a loose end that you tie it against.
Ed Brubaker
They made a bunch of Batman references in this.
Jason Manzoukas
I feel like Batman with a boner.
Ed Brubaker
I mean, like, Daredevil is Marvel's Batman. He's Marvel's kind of human vigilante kind of kind of character. Morally ambiguous street level. Yes. But here they, like, they kill his dad out in the back alleyway just like.
Paul Scheer
But that happened in the film.
Ed Brubaker
Just like. But I feel like it went down more like the alleyway shooting of the parents, you know? Then there are a bunch of bats that fly out of the church organ. But I was like, what the fuck is going.
Paul Scheer
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Paul Scheer
You would argue director's cut is a better movie. It's still a bit of a mess. It still, you know, opens with him starting to talk to a priest and then cuts to. In fact, the flashback is an extra 20 minutes longer.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
Because it literally. It's only when after Elektra gets killed and Matt drops into that ch church that it comes back to where the movie began.
Jason Manzoukas
Right.
Paul Scheer
And now I remember the first time I was watching the movie, I literally called my wife and I'm like, look at this. This is an hour and 15 minutes into a 90 minute movie. And the flashback that started at the beginning of the movie just ended. And she was like, really? That's impossible.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, I kept on waiting for, like, the main narrative to kick in too. Like. And that was it. It was like, you finally. Okay, now I know.
Ed Brubaker
Now we're gonna start.
Jason Manzoukas
Now I know. And it's like, oh, only 20 minutes to go. Okay, well, I guess this is it.
Paul Scheer
Okay. What the hell happens in that opening bar scene? What is he doing to that guy when he's sticking seven paper clips. Paper clips in the guy's throat was weird.
Ed Brubaker
Yes.
Jason Manzoukas
I guess a lot of acupuncture.
Paul Scheer
Acupuncture. It was like he's just passing out. Like.
Ed Brubaker
No, he kills him.
Jason Manzoukas
There's no figure or anything.
Ed Brubaker
Bullseye repeatedly does what I would consider to be amateur magic tricks.
Paul Scheer
Yes.
Ed Brubaker
Like, he shows the guy a paper, then he puts his hand in front of it, pulls his hand away, and the paperclip is unfolded.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes.
Ed Brubaker
And everybody's looking at him like, what the fuck is this about? And then he, like, shoots. He, like, flicks the paperclip at the guy and it goes into his throat.
Jason Manzoukas
But he has also 20 of them.
Ed Brubaker
He has 20 more undone. Unfastened paperclips.
Paul Scheer
Don't let him into your office.
Jason Manzoukas
Is he like this? You know, there are certain versions of this comic that I have read. And again, Daredevil is not. Does he do that with every. Like, is he.
Ed Brubaker
Can he.
Paul Scheer
Bullseye is deadly with anything in his hand.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes, anything.
Paul Scheer
What's weird is, though, with a pencil, he. He did do the thing where he rubber band paperclip to fly. That was bugging him.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay, so. All right, so he's.
Ed Brubaker
Anything multifaceted. Anything is a weapon.
Paul Scheer
With a peanut. Yes.
Jason Manzoukas
Got it. Okay.
Ed Brubaker
But what's weird is he throws a card at one point, which is a gambit move.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes.
Paul Scheer
I thought that was so pretty. Gambit.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, is it?
Paul Scheer
He's used cards. Frank Miller, even.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, okay.
Paul Scheer
The throwing cards. Yeah. It was like. I guess. Okay, whoever created Bullseye, I think it was Marvel, the guy who created Blade. I think he. When he was doing Daredevil, he created Bullseye. And I think he's thrown cards the entire time, because.
Ed Brubaker
Okay, that's fine.
Paul Scheer
He must have known of. Ricky J.
June Diane Raphael
Got it.
Ed Brubaker
Because I was like. I saw that. And I was like, bullseye, That's a gambit move.
Jason Manzoukas
But, yeah, Bullseye has become Ricky J. That's how he retired. He uses his cover to travel the world to kill people.
Paul Scheer
He's got. He's just Ricky J. With bangs.
Jason Manzoukas
But yet. I'm just looking through some of my notes. I wrote down that this movie feels like A shitty video game version of a good movie. It just feels like I'm watching weird cut scenes and they don't all kind of.
Ed Brubaker
The sex scene. Oh, do we wanna talk about the playground fight dance scene?
Paul Scheer
Yes.
Jason Manzoukas
A scene that took four days to shoot.
Paul Scheer
Really?
Jason Manzoukas
Four 12 hour days were committed to that sequence. Which looks like garbage. Garbage. Like you said. Let's just check through it. Let's walk through it. All the fight scenes. Scenes look a little bit slower than they should be.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, very slow.
Paul Scheer
That's why they didn't just speed it up in the edit.
Jason Manzoukas
That's what I thought too.
Paul Scheer
There's a scene where he's like. Where Elektra's shooting at him after. After she thinks he killed her dad for some reason. And she picks up that gun and just starts blam, blam, blam. And he's like running away and very slowly leaping up a wall. And I was like, that's the slowest parkour I've ever seen.
Ed Brubaker
If he was moving that slowly, you would 100% shoot him. Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
She couldn't have missed, by the way. She's a ninja.
Paul Scheer
She's a ninja, but not a gun. Ninja. Ninja. If she had thrown a knife at him, she probably would have hit him.
Ed Brubaker
I buy that.
Jason Manzoukas
All right, that's good.
Ed Brubaker
They have, they have the dance scene. The. So they have.
Jason Manzoukas
They, they.
Ed Brubaker
They have a meet cute where like they meet in a bar. In a coffee shop rather. And he follows her out and she's like, why are you following me?
Paul Scheer
Wait. But he senses her before she walks in.
Jason Manzoukas
Remember?
Paul Scheer
And Foggy is like. She's hideous. Yeah. And he's like that good, huh? And then he stalks her.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, he really does.
Ed Brubaker
Like a real gross elk stalking. He asks her her name and she won't give it to him.
Paul Scheer
So he goes after that. He also made me know that if I were ever single, which I will never be again, thank God, I could just totally do that.
June Diane Raphael
And that's only if you're blind.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, here's, here's.
Paul Scheer
What if I'm fake blinding like Ben Affleck was.
Jason Manzoukas
What if I just have just put in those things.
Paul Scheer
Contacts. But then I'm gonna have to commit to that for an entire relationship. That would be terrible.
Jason Manzoukas
Somebody, our clip puller who does a great job. She actually cut. They really want to emphasize the blind thing. And she actually put together a compilation of how many times they reference these blind hair.
Paul Scheer
They reference it a lot.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah. Have a listen to this.
Ed Brubaker
They say your whole life flashes before
Jason Manzoukas
your eyes when you Die.
Ed Brubaker
And it's true, even for a blind man.
Jason Manzoukas
What I saw, I'll never forget because
Paul Scheer
it would be the last thing I'd ever see.
Ed Brubaker
I had lost my sight, but I got something back in return.
Paul Scheer
Oh, my God.
Jason Manzoukas
So that was all in the first two minutes. They just are always referencing. And then when he meets. When he meets her, we can play that coffee shop scene again. They really hit it home. It's like, this is a blind guy. This is not the Ben Affleck.
Ed Brubaker
I'm sorry. Excuse me.
June Diane Raphael
Sure.
Paul Scheer
I was just looking for some honey.
Jason Manzoukas
Could you help me out?
Paul Scheer
Right in front of you. Dick.
Ed Brubaker
Well, could you be bit a little. A little bit more specific?
Jason Manzoukas
What are you blind? That's how they fall in love.
Paul Scheer
By the way, have you ever said, what are you blind? To somebody? Yeah. Never.
June Diane Raphael
That is like, she's kind of rude. Like, there's another scene when at the ball, at the big ball, she shows up. Or he walks up to her and she does look amazing. But she says to him, I really wish you could see me tonight. Well, he can't. That's mean.
Paul Scheer
That's silly.
June Diane Raphael
I know. You look great and stuff.
Paul Scheer
Like, that'd be like he's already seen her in the rain. And does she know that? Does she understand? He does.
Ed Brubaker
He explains. He explains the whole concept of his sonar dark.
Paul Scheer
All she needs to do is turn on the sprinklers.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah. By the way, if I was Daredevil, I would just move to Seattle because then you get to see all the beautiful women all the time.
June Diane Raphael
How does he see people in the rain?
Paul Scheer
It doesn't make any sense. In the comic, he just sees shapes.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, right.
Paul Scheer
He sees the person in shape.
June Diane Raphael
Let me throw this.
Paul Scheer
See, it's even more beautiful. I love that. June. Loved it. I know.
Ed Brubaker
It's amazing.
Paul Scheer
I was not expecting that one.
June Diane Raphael
I also recognize, like, the story problem and all of that, but I enjoyed it.
Ed Brubaker
But it's so true that the heart of it was a love story. And if Elektra hadn't been involved, would you have liked that movie?
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, that's what I think.
Paul Scheer
You would like the director's cut. Because the director's cut is way more. It's just about being a superhero and the troubles of doing it, kind of.
Jason Manzoukas
So they're talking about a reboot. And these are some interesting names been attached to it. Jason Statham has expressed interest in playing Daredevil.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
Vin Diesel wants to play King Pin.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
And. And so someone had. Had put. Pointed out that maybe we should get the Guys that directed the Crank, that was Command. And you get Nicolas Cage to be another villain.
Ed Brubaker
That's a movie I would fucking love.
Jason Manzoukas
Nicholas Cage. Kevin Feige has confirmed that the rights are now back to Marvel, so they can do this. This is a. I think, a movie
June Diane Raphael
that could be really character, though. Do people.
Ed Brubaker
This is like, a beloved character any.
Paul Scheer
And he couldn't figure out how to. How to get it going at Fox. I think a friend of mine was gonna. Was attached to direct it, like, a couple years ago. And it was just a situation of, you know, too many. Too many notes, too many different ideas.
Jason Manzoukas
It's such a simple movie. It could be done like the Batman movies. And it would be just as effective and such as really cool and be really easy.
Paul Scheer
You do born again, and then you end born again. But you do, like, a different ending where you throw him in prison and then.
Ed Brubaker
And you do that. The reveal story.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. And then the next one is, like, different. Daredevil in prison, which was, like, my first.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
That's how you got him out of prayer.
Paul Scheer
Like, Daredevil's in prison with all the bad guys. That's never been done before.
Jason Manzoukas
That would be amazing movie, too.
Paul Scheer
That would be a really great street level, you know, because Kingpin's in there and Bullseye's in there. I would, like, throw the Punisher in. Well, I mean, Marvel owns the Punisher.
Jason Manzoukas
People love Arkham Asylum and all that kind of stuff. It's like, you know, it's like, that would be a cool movie.
June Diane Raphael
Is there what happened to Daredevil after his father died? Like, where did he go?
Jason Manzoukas
I know he was training, but they trained together. It seemed like.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, they trained. Training. Mont. The way where he's sitting and reading and his dad's just boxing on the roof and. But somehow Matt also learns, like.
Jason Manzoukas
Yes.
Paul Scheer
That whole wire fu. Like, he's sliding down. I'm sorry. Like, just because you have radar sense, why are you a perfect, like, ballerina? Like, no, I could not walk like
Jason Manzoukas
a bar where everything was.
Ed Brubaker
He just does it too. He's like, I bet I could slide three stories down a bar.
Paul Scheer
No longer afraid I'm a child. Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
And the directors cut the. Did they try to explain that or.
Paul Scheer
No.
Jason Manzoukas
Okay.
Paul Scheer
In the director's cut, that scene stands out even more because everything else, I mean, it's not realistic, but it's grittier. And that scene. And the scene where he beats up Tony Soprano's kid with the stick thing. Oh, my God. How could he know those poses?
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah. He really is Posing.
Paul Scheer
Yeah, he's literally like an 8 year old doing.
Jason Manzoukas
He just got it.
Paul Scheer
Kung fu movie poses.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, obviously we had an opinion about this movie, but there are other people who had a slightly better opinion now.
Ed Brubaker
June was one of them.
Jason Manzoukas
June is one of them.
Ed Brubaker
June is this. Are we gonna read a second opinion from June?
Jason Manzoukas
This is time for second opinions with a brand new theme song.
Ed Brubaker
Second opinions from top to bottom. Crazy movies are fun.
June Diane Raphael
They're not your first, but they're gonna be a second.
Jason Manzoukas
From the depths of Amazon they come. Second opinions for everyone. Second opinion.
Ed Brubaker
All right, so did we get more theme songs?
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, a lot of great ones.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, good.
Paul Scheer
Love that theme song.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, we got new ones. Thank you guys for sending in that theme song. Okay, here's some great ones. I actually pulled a few. This is from Ronald W. Knight. He writes, I love this movie and so did my ex wife. She never. She never liked comics. So that's a great recommendation.
Ed Brubaker
I wish I had her back. I wish she hadn't left. Left me. Sometimes I watch this movie and cry because I miss my ex wife.
Paul Scheer
I don't know who I'm gonna go see. Guardians of the Galaxy.
Jason Manzoukas
This is from Dixie Elder, Michael Clark. Duncan is strong. Whenever life is walking all over me, I just watch any scene with Bullseye and laugh my ass off and get back in the groove. Five stars.
Ed Brubaker
Wow.
Paul Scheer
Wow.
Jason Manzoukas
All right, this is these. There's so many great ones here. This is from Marion Wilson. This film's gotta be the best action movie I've ever seen. Barring Fast and the Furious, Tokyo Drift.
Paul Scheer
A lot of people come down for Tokyo Drift.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
Really?
Paul Scheer
I like fast five.
Ed Brubaker
Yeah, fast five and six.
Paul Scheer
Five and six.
Jason Manzoukas
I especially Kurt Russell.
Paul Scheer
Come on, it's James Wan.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah, it's going to be amazing. I especially like Evanescence's Bring Me to Life video. The story is original. And I haven't seen any other films about blind super superheroes. Have you? Five stars.
Paul Scheer
Wait, is that the song that's played during the montage? The training montage? Oh, God, I hate that song.
Jason Manzoukas
It's so terrible. And then here I gotta keep on reading these because they're so good. Jake Edelstein writes, it reminds me that justice is blind in the sense.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, my God.
Jason Manzoukas
In the sense that there's no discrimination against the rich and the poor, the mighty and the lowly. Unfortunately, that's only in the comic book universe. Rob a 711 and you'll get 15 years in jail, swindle billions out of investors, plea bargain and a slap on the Wrist. Wall street needs a Daredevil. Five stars.
Ed Brubaker
Amazing.
Paul Scheer
Well, he's a street level character, so he could just exist, just move to New York. Jake Edelstein.
Jason Manzoukas
And then finally from Maxi Cat, he writes, forget Ben Affleck. That guy's getting married soon. Well, maybe not too soon. Anyway, see this movie. To check, check out the spanking new Hollywood golden boy, Irish heartthrob, Colin Farrell. Oh, my God, this man is as hot as chili wings in Palm Springs. Grindin. Plus, he has the acting abilities of a serious, talented actor. That's the best. He has the acting abilities of a seriously talented actor.
Paul Scheer
Oh, my God.
Jason Manzoukas
Five stars.
Paul Scheer
Holy shit. Is that from IMDb from when the
Jason Manzoukas
movie was out from 2003. January 30th, 2003. Why does.
Ed Brubaker
the end of the movie, why does Bullseye get stigmata in the church?
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, yeah.
Ed Brubaker
Shot through the hands and strikes a Christ pose and has. I was like, what is this imagery?
Jason Manzoukas
But they kind of pulled away from it too. Like, he kind of does it and
Ed Brubaker
then basically make him a Christ figure. And then Matt Murdock literally throws him out a window.
Paul Scheer
But remember, they're doing the fight after he kills Elektra. He starts fighting bulls. Daredevil. Bullseye start fighting. And then there's like a police chopper and there's cops and everywhere. So apparently that sniper was just shooting. It was like a police sniper just shooting both of them, but shooting just
Ed Brubaker
through it because he couldn't see through the stained glass window.
Paul Scheer
Exactly. I don't understand.
Ed Brubaker
That was crazy.
Paul Scheer
I'm going to take a shot. Whatever. I don't know if there's anyone in this chair.
Ed Brubaker
I think I got a shot of something.
Paul Scheer
And. And Daredevil, his radar sense sees it coming and that's how he random. Those cops are even there. Oh, yeah. No, I had to go. I had to rewind it like, several times to get to the point where there were cops there even. Cause I was like, who is this sniper? Is this a kingpin sniper?
Ed Brubaker
And why are they. Yeah, it doesn't matter.
Paul Scheer
Bullseye has backup for the first time in history.
Jason Manzoukas
And then also they kind of in the theatrical version, they barely touch the priest relationship is like, hurts and it's gone. Cause I thought in the beginning, like, oh, does he sleep in the church in this? Like. Cause it seems like he's like.
Ed Brubaker
The other thing that I loved was in the church when bulls were breaks the stained glass window above him and catches pieces of wood.
Paul Scheer
Oh, yes.
Ed Brubaker
Like they're plates.
Jason Manzoukas
Like Chili Willy.
Ed Brubaker
Like in a Pile.
Jason Manzoukas
Like chilli Willy. Willy catching pancakes.
Ed Brubaker
He literally catches stacks of glass and then uses them to, like, throw and spin. And I was like, this is so stupid.
Paul Scheer
And this is in the era where they were. They had already made all three Lord of the Rings movies, and people knew how to do green screen, where you're reacting to things that aren't there. And they're still having. Having him catch falling plates.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, there was something really interesting. They said that because Superman did such a good thing, they raised the budget from 50 million. That was the shooting budget. And they pushed it to 80 for $30 million of special effects to enhance the visuals, which, you know, look, that stained glass window scene really showed that out.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. Half the. Like, the early stuff, when he's a kid, when his dad is. I can't remember who plays his dad.
Jason Manzoukas
I forget his name. I'll find out. Right now. It's.
Paul Scheer
He's got a name that sounds exactly like.
Jason Manzoukas
It's a. David Keith.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. David Keith. And Keith David. So David Keith is doing, like a Popeye face.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
Like, you can't fight with people and. But, like, all those scenes look like they're filmed on green screen to me. Yeah. Like, all the hard line around all the characters. Like, it almost felt like someone was putting their hand on you and pushing you away from this, from the movie.
Jason Manzoukas
Don't be connected to this.
Paul Scheer
Don't be connected to this. Don't be engaged. I'm going to tell you what this movie is about. And then at some point, that just stops. And he's like an adult and a lawyer.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah. That's why it's like, it's so confused. It was like they didn't commit to just doing a Daredevil movie without an origin story. Because in a way, I almost feel like I could go without an origin story. You don't need to really know. I think it felt like that's what they were doing. Would you recommend this movie? That's the question.
Ed Brubaker
You know, I did not watch the director's cut. Maybe I would do that. I don't know. I thought the movie. I mean, maybe it's also like, if you're a Daredevil fan. Fan, which I very much consider myself one. Like, I was profoundly disappointed when I saw this at the time. And when I watched it again for this, I was like, yeah, this is a bummer. It's a bummer because it's a missed opportunity more than it is, like, a terrible movie. Like, the fight scenes are kind of are boring and Kind of slap dash.
Paul Scheer
If they were faster.
Ed Brubaker
If they were. If they. If they were more successful, I would maybe be into it. But, yeah, it just doesn't work. So I would say say no, Ed.
Paul Scheer
I. You know, I feel like its biggest failing is that it's not engaging as. As much as when we're talking about it. It sounds more interesting than it actually plays, somehow. And even the director's cut, I found myself glancing away at my computer to look up, like. Oh, does that, like, just.
Jason Manzoukas
It's.
Paul Scheer
I had a hard time. Yeah. And, like, I want to say, if you're a Daredevil fan, if you want to see a Daredevil movie, you should look at the director's cut just to see.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
But I'm hoping that there'll be another Daredevil movie. I think now they can do it back and they, you know, hopefully do something with it. But, you know, it's still. He does have that costume. And you see in the new movies, like, they. They're trying to make him look as as little costumed as possible.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Paul Scheer
I wonder how they'll pull that off.
Jason Manzoukas
I'm very curious, June.
June Diane Raphael
I guess I would say 100%, yes.
Paul Scheer
I love that.
Jason Manzoukas
And I will say that I just feel like nothing is really given that much attention to. And that's the thing. That's a bummer. It's like, his relationship with Favreau's character, the reporter kingpin. It's like. It's all. Pieces are there.
Paul Scheer
Does Ellen Pompeo have a line of dialogue? No, it's. Okay.
June Diane Raphael
So Pin has, like, one where I think she's requesting to be his plus one.
Paul Scheer
Oh, okay. She has three scenes in the director's cut where she clearly is really into Matt and not into Foggy at all.
Jason Manzoukas
Oh, okay. So that's.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. And like. Like, she's offering to get Matt coffee, and Foggy's like, I'll take a cup, and she's ignoring him, and so she has, like, interaction there.
Jason Manzoukas
It feels like an unfinished puzzle on a table. It's like, oh, that looks kind of like if we put that together the right way, it would be cool. But right now, it's just a bunch of pieces.
Ed Brubaker
Well, that's.
Paul Scheer
I feel like there are better bad movies to recommend.
June Diane Raphael
Well, here's the thing. I think I'm also coming at it as someone who's never heard of this character before. So I'm like, oh, it's really cool. I love this guy.
Ed Brubaker
Well, he's awesome.
June Diane Raphael
I've never heard of it.
Ed Brubaker
What's hard about it, I think, is they're trying to include so many kinds of. Of pieces of Daredevil from throughout the years that they wind up too much in.
Paul Scheer
It was a blender.
Jason Manzoukas
Yeah.
Ed Brubaker
They wind up with nothing, and they know story by trying to tell all the story.
Jason Manzoukas
I think the issue is partially, is that because Daredevil became Daredevil as a child.
Paul Scheer
Yeah.
Jason Manzoukas
They got screwed because they didn't do, like, they can't do, like, the Spider man, like, young kid version. They got to do the older version, but they got to pay homage to,
Paul Scheer
like, it's weird because he was like, he had those powers for a good eight years, years before he. Before his dad died or something. He was like, 15 or 16 when his dad died in the comics.
Jason Manzoukas
All right, so, guys, what do we want to plug Ed? What do you got coming up that you'd like to talk about? Obviously, Captain America is coming.
Paul Scheer
The Captain America 2 movie? Yeah. That's sort of loosely based on a comic I wrote.
Ed Brubaker
Your new book is amazing Velvet.
Paul Scheer
Oh, thank you.
Ed Brubaker
Amazing. Oh, I have not read that.
Jason Manzoukas
I gotta read that.
Paul Scheer
I would have brought copies, but mine got mailed to my house in Seattle.
Ed Brubaker
How dare you?
Paul Scheer
But, yeah, my new comic out Velvet, which is kind of like a woman spy comic about sort of the what if Moneypenny was framed for the murder of James Bond? Is sort of kind of pitch for it.
Ed Brubaker
And it's Steve Epting.
Paul Scheer
Steve Epting, the guy who drew Captain America for me, is my artist. And, yeah, that's out of image.
Ed Brubaker
Awesome.
Paul Scheer
And, yeah, just that. And I can't talk about the stupid Hollywood stuff I'm working on.
Jason Manzoukas
Why?
Paul Scheer
Very excited. Well, I have to talk about it when we're not recording. God damn it.
Ed Brubaker
God damn it.
Paul Scheer
You'll be very excited.
June Diane Raphael
June, when is this coming out?
Jason Manzoukas
This can come out this week.
June Diane Raphael
Oh. So Ask backwards is out November 8th
Paul Scheer
in theaters, and it's on streaming already.
June Diane Raphael
And it's already streaming on itunes and
Paul Scheer
Amazon, I think maybe.
June Diane Raphael
Yeah. All vod, pretty much places you can find it.
Ed Brubaker
And it's fucking hilarious. I saw it this week.
June Diane Raphael
Thank you so much.
Ed Brubaker
Crazy, funny.
Jason Manzoukas
So good. Watch it, download it, do it all.
June Diane Raphael
That's it.
Jason Manzoukas
Jason.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, the league, bro. Bro, the league.
Jason Manzoukas
Check out Jason. I in the league, bro.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, bro. League, bro.
Paul Scheer
I loved your. I loved your episode that you and Seth wrote.
Ed Brubaker
Oh, thank you.
Jason Manzoukas
So funny.
Paul Scheer
That was really funny.
Ed Brubaker
Very divisive episode. Lots of love for it. Lots of hate for it.
Paul Scheer
Yeah. My wife. My wife leaves the room when the league comes on. So I was, like, trying to tell her about I don't care. Like that shows mean.
Jason Manzoukas
Well, thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Ed, and thanks for having me. Hey, what's going on over there? It's me, Trevor Noah. You know me. You don't know me. Oh, you do. I was worried there for a second. Well, if you know anything about me, you'll know. I love having interesting conversations, conversations where we scratch beneath the surface, like what's really going on in the news? Or what is that celebrity really thinking about that scandal that they had? Or what's the worst way to be a parent? I mean, you want to find that out so you can be the best parent, right? Well, regardless of what it is, this podcast is all about figuring that out, talking to interesting people who have interesting
Paul Scheer
ideas that give us an interesting perspective
Jason Manzoukas
on the world that we're living in.
Paul Scheer
So make sure you choose.
Jason Manzoukas
Check out what now with Trevor Noah. Available now on the Sirius XM app. Dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last 45 years, providing the TV you love at a price you can trust. Watch live sports, news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps, all in one place. Switch to DISH today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV, starting at 89.99amonth with our two year price guarantee. Call 888-@dish or visit dish.com today.
Episode Aired: June 2, 2026
Hosts: Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael, Jason Mantzoukas
Guest: Ed Brubaker (comic writer: Criminal, Fatale, Captain America, Daredevil)
A hilarious deep dive into the much-maligned 2003 superhero film Daredevil (starring Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner), with a special focus on why it turned out the way it did. The episode features comic book writer and Daredevil expert Ed Brubaker, who helps break down the movie’s odd choices, fidelity (or lack thereof) to the comics, and lasting legacy as both a failed and unintentionally amusing piece of superhero cinema. The group compares the theatrical and director’s cuts, debates the effectiveness of its romantic subplot, and riffs on superhero tropes, casting what-ifs, and unforgettable oddities of the film.
[02:02]
[05:54], [06:39]
[10:10]
[12:17]
[17:45], [22:11]
[26:06], [44:24]
On superhero tropes:
On Affleck and Costuming:
On Bullseye (Colin Farrell):
On the movie’s “blindness” references:
On the sets:
[33:14], [36:31]
[51:10]
[57:24], [59:32]
The episode is goofy and affectionately merciless, combining comic nerd expertise (Ed, Paul) with outsider perspective (June), and mixing serious complaints with comic riffs and digressions. The hosts riff on details both minute (drugstore chewed pills, fake sets, Bullseye’s snake-jacket sound effect) and broad (structure, fidelity, casting), keeping the pace light and irreverent.
Verdict:
Worth listening for fans of the podcast or those curious about how a blockbuster went so wrong—and why, despite everything, some people (June! Amazon reviewers!) genuinely love it. If you haven’t seen Daredevil, you’ll get all the context, laughs, and “so-bad-it’s-good” takeaways you need.As Paul sums up: “It sounds more interesting when we talk about it than it actually plays.” [58:16]