Ed Brubaker (5:46)

Corruptions and omission.

Paul Scheer (5:49)

You were wrong. Thank you, Mad Licks for that theme song. Love that name, by the way. Let's go to the discord. Sean McBee writes, I spent the beginning of the movie thinking that everyone was somehow breathing through their goggles, but it's actually these little silver things on their collars, as evidenced by the one shot where Natasha Hendrich can be seen breathing directly from it with accompanying air sounds. Now there's a picture that Sean put up and he's not lying. It maybe it seems like it's outputting enough oxygen in the general direction of their faces to supplement the 80% atmospheric conversion to Earth levels. So you just think that they have like a fan blowing on them the entire time? I thought it was through their goggles too, like through their eyes. We need to get answers, Sean. And honestly, this idea that they have just a little vent blowing in their face has put more questions in front of this. People come to the rescue. We may need to ask Ed Brubaker about this. Unfortunately, we recorded our chat with him a while ago, so I will not be able to ask him. But good thing there is somebody in the Discord who can answer this. And that is flat underscore baby. Flat underscore baby ads. I just watched it and yes, the glasses are unrelated to the breathers. It's an editing oversight that they just happen to be putting on the glasses and talking about over the face mask while also talking about breathers later on. Nel sucks air from a chest mounted nozzle like a camelback tube. And the guy who cuts off his thumb is using a black market breather called a laugher, which looks more like an asthma inhaler. Whoa. Okay, so I thought he was like vaping or doing drugs too. So I guess it's like an asthma inhaler that lasts for a very long time, I guess. Again, flat baby. You've clarified some things and I appreciate that. And what, what a. What a jump. Why not just say we pressurized Mars. Why not at that point, right? Fun Fact 47 writes, why is it in both the movie and the Doom movie, which also takes place in the future on Mars, there's futuristic technology, yet the characters have to hold a flashlight in one hand and their gun in the other? You'd think they have figured out the built in night vision. You know what? You're right. And I also believe fun facts 47, that there are guns with flashlights on top of them. I feel like I've seen enough movies where people are like, it's a mounted thing, like a scope, but it's a flashlight. Am I right? Am I wrong? Gun owners let me know. Gratuitous silence writes, it sounded like the group thought the diseased miners were ghosts, but I understood more to be like an infection, I. E. The last of us. The ghosts were old organisms or spores, not actual spirits that used to be on the surface. And when they were isolated and quarantined, maybe an infected species got locked away in that tomb or. Which then makes more sense that they only travel via wind. People respond like crazed zombies when infected and that the drugs counter the effects. But does that make the other things harder, like sentience and seemingly choosing to leave Melanie's body when she takes the drugs? Well, gratuitous silence. We are on the same page. I mean, I think the ghosts are the infection. They're the spore that is dormant that then flies into people's bodies, Right? So I guess like ghosts use liberally that the ghost, the spore is living. I mean, or. So what you're saying is there's no such thing as ghosts because the ghosts also have a lot of wherewithal, right? Oh, boy. But it's not like zombie ism because they are sentient, so they are looking for a host. You know what? I think the fact that we have spent more time than clearly John Carpenter might have spent on this means that it is time for a reboot. Gratuitous silence. Please get that going. All right, let's go to the phones. Mindy, you're up. Hey, Paul. My brother and I went to Ghost of Mars and my boyfriend's back this week. Amazing shows. I think I can explain Ghost of Mars. It's a satanic panic movie. And the moral is that if your kids listen to heavy metal, they will pierce their fingers, file their teeth and become cannibals. That's why every time we see the zombie Martian ghost acting up, it turns into a bizarre 80s music video. The only part I can't explain is why drugs save the day. But still, the movie has satanic panic written all over it. Thanks for great shows, Mindy. I love this take. I mean, yes, the drugs, we can't really. I guess drugs is cool, but rock and roll isn't. I don't know But I love that idea that this is about rock music. I mean, the music in the movie is also, like, kind of rocking, too. So is it like a meta satanic panic movie? Like rock and roll comes to Mars and then it controls all of us and we don't want to work for the man anymore. Rock and roll sets us free. And they try to put the rock and roll in the cave, but you can't keep rock and roll down. No, you can't. And you know what? Rock and roll lives as long as you don't do drugs. Because the best rock and rollers have been killed by drugs.

Ed Brubaker (10:44)

Right?

Paul Scheer (10:44)

Is that maybe where we're at? Mindy, you're a genius. I love it. Next up, Fuzzy from Connecticut. Hey, Paul. Watching Ghost From Mars, neither June nor Jason commented on the fact that Pam Grier was wearing leather gauchos. I was shocked and disappointed. Anyway, I thought it was a trench coat. Definitely. Long leather gauchos. Love the show. Thanks. First of all, thank you, Fuzzy, for not expecting me to comment on those leather gaucho pants. I like that you're just like, no. I'm not even gonna say I'm disappointed in you. You know, I wouldn. Yeah, I agree. I'm also disappointed in them. But you know what? Here's the thing. There's so much other stuff not making sense in this that the gaucho pants might be the only thing that does. Let's go back to the Discord. Frosted Nebula, AKA that's Jafar. We love Jafar. Jafar was a presence in our last LA shows and many of the shows in the last year. Jafar, what do you got? Towards the end of the DVD commentary with John Carpenter and Natasha Hendrich, Carpenter is talking about Natasha downplaying her acting, and she says, well, John, every day when you got to set, you would say loudly, this is the biggest piece of shit I've ever made. And it didn't inspire much confidence in the rest of the team. Whoa. I thought that they were in a separate places when they said these things about the movie, but no. Frosted Nebula, AKA Jafar, says, it is one of the most awkward commentary tracks I have ever heard. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Well, you know what? You get paid to do commentary tracks, so I guess they wanted some of that money. But I am now definitely going to go hunt down this DVD and listen to that. That sounds ideal. All right. CNU 2007 rights. As it turns out, Big Daddy Mars is from the underworld and just wants to destroy Mars. This is canon. As seen on My official Big Daddy Mars trading card. Wait, what? There were trading cards for Ghost of Mars? Well, yes, there is. Our producer Scott has an image here. This is a. This is a mint card I'm looking at, and I will tell you some of the things that were on the back. Hobbies for this is Big Daddy Mars. Headhunting and body piercing. I love that he has hobbies. Facts you didn't know. Big Daddy Mars has over 200 body piercings. Okay, so the hobbies and the facts you didn't know kind of go together. I like that he has body piercings again. Is this a minor that had body piercings? Because I would imagine that. Well, I guess maybe he got to work. I mean, he must be sore that Ghost came out, found a minor, and then just started piercing the hell out of himself. Description. The Beast of the Night is a true wanderer, a roamer who brings devastation and pain to all he encounters. A product of the underworld, his desire to reap disaster upon Mars is malicious and destructive. Watch out, for he can steal one's soul and damn it for eternity with his presence alone. Tranquility is impossible on Mars. Wow. When a trading card fills in that much backstory, you know you got some problems. W. Rosenkrantz writes, this might be controversial, but they should remake Ghost of Mars. The basic ideas could be turned into something fun. It was big enough that they could benefit from advertising a name people already know. And the original wasn't sacred to anybody, so the remake won't automatically be worse. Well, you know what? I love this idea. As a matter of fact, I already brought it up that. That we should have done it. You know, that maybe gratuitous silence should have done it. But maybe now the question is, who from the. The Geek Squad should be in this? Because I feel like this is a good Geek Squad movie. Maybe it's. Maybe Jason and I could be in it with June. We're, you know, we're. We're with the Geek Squad. Maybe get killed early. I don't know. I think there's a lot of options here. So let us know who you would cast in the Ghost of Mars remake. And the best person who writes up a little description with a cast. We will read it here on the next Last Looks. Wow, wow, wow. I'm blown away. So many great corrections and omissions this week, but there can only be one winner. And look, the gaucho pants. Yes. No one mentioned it. That was a very shocking omission. I will say that knowing the breathers are not actually goggles Sean McBee. That's pretty great. Now, I would also say that CNU 2007 might win, but I don't know. I mean, the fact that CNU has a trading card is pretty impressive. You know what? That's what I'm gonna pick. If you have trading cards for Ghost of Mards, you should win something. All right, CNW2007, you are the winner. And you get this amazing song from Garrett Parker. Hit it.

Ed Brubaker (15:07)

People of Earth.

June Diane Raphael (15:11)

You win nothing.

Paul Scheer (15:12)

Okay, if you want to chime in with your own thoughts about the latest episode, please hit up our discord or leave us a message by calling 619-Paul-ASK. Coming up after the break, Jason and I will sit down for chat with Ed Brubaker. So stick around. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help your business stand out and succeed online. Every dream needs a domain. Squarespace Domain makes it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all inclusive price, no hidden fees and add ons required. And with Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Even me. Because what did I do when I needed to start the dinosaur improv website? Well, I got on Squarespace, I looked at some of their award winning website templates, and I created something that I would never have been able to conceive without seeing this beautiful template in front of me. It made it fast, it made it easy. And now the drag and drop technology, everything is clean and clear and you can even make it work for the phone and the computer. What are you waiting for? Head to squarespace.com bonkers for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, use offer code bonkers to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain. You know that feeling when you're watching a movie and you can't stop analyzing every choice? Well, that's where Claude comes in. It's the AI that helps you dig deeper into the things that fascinate you. Whether you're researching the production history behind Hollywood's strangest decisions or exploring the context that made these films possible, Claude works with you to uncover the stories behind the stories. Try Claude for free at Claude AI HDTGM and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner on ebay. Every find has a story. Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee, the one you wore everywhere until you lost It. Now you're on ebay. And there it is. The things you love have a way of finding their way back to you, especially on ebay. From rare collectibles and vintage cars to designer fashion, it's all there. Shop ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. Ebay. Things people love. Welcome back. Now every Tuesday we re release a classic. How did this get made Episode back onto our feed this week. Like I mentioned, we did something a little bit different to celebrate our producer, Avril Halley celebrate her life and we wanted to make something that she might enjoy. So last week's matinee covered the 2020 Chloe Grace Moritz film where gremlins get loose on a plane. Right. It's one of our least selling shirts where Gremlin is on the wing. But it's called Shadow in the Cloud and you'll understand why we picked that one if you take a listen. And by the way, if you're not watching Dark Web with Rob Huebel and I, some crazy stuff has been going on. Check out Dark Web. Our studio burnt down. Rob and I now are in the woods fending for ourselves, high on mustard. But enough about that. It is now time to talk to a true legend. That's right, Jason and I get to join our pal, Ed Brubaker. Now, Ed Brubaker is an Eisner award winning artist, a brilliant graphic novelist, a television writer. He is just an all about gem who also has a bad movie club. His new book in the criminal series is called the Knives. It's available right now. We're going to talk about that in a bit. The hardback version of his Friday series comes out next week on November 12th. And this TV show based on his criminal series, which I saw the first two episodes of and I loved, does not have a release date yet. We're going to talk about it a little bit and his experience adapting it, which I think you can also get a little taste of if you read Knives. Um, you are in store for a very fun conversation because not only are we gonna talk about all that, but Ed was so mad that he was not the guest for Ghost of Mars. All right, so without any further ado, please, John, Astonish. Hit the theme song. Jason and Paul, just chat. June and Paul, just chat.

Ed Brubaker (19:25)

Tall John Shear, just chat.

Paul Scheer (19:27)

How did this get made last? Look, just chat. Welcome back to the show, Ed. And first question, you are a Ghost of Mars aficionado, an expert.

Ed Brubaker (19:39)

I. Okay, look, remember DVDs.

Paul Scheer (19:43)

Yes.

Ed Brubaker (19:43)

Remember, remember, remember the OTS. Remember Obama?

June Diane Raphael (19:47)

Those halcyon Halcyon days.

Paul Scheer (19:49)

My favorite Marc Maron guest.

Ed Brubaker (19:51)

Yeah, I am a John Carpenter fan who is married to someone who is an even bigger John Carpenter fan.

June Diane Raphael (19:58)

Got it.

Paul Scheer (19:58)

Nice.

Ed Brubaker (19:59)

And Ghost of Mars came out at this era where we had built, like, we used to live in Seattle, and we had built like, a little theater room in our basement that could fit about seven people comfortably. And so I would just have these evenings where I would just like, I'm gonna watch, like, three sci fi movies tonight. And Ghosts of Mars, I believe, is one of the most fun, rewatchable John Carpenter movies from that era. Like, I would rank it 10 times better than his fucking vampires movie.

June Diane Raphael (20:31)

Well, but therein lies my question for you, Ed. Why rewatch the movies from the bad era?

Paul Scheer (20:36)

Right?

June Diane Raphael (20:37)

Like, what's the benefit of that? It's what you just said. It's one of the best movies from that bad era.

Ed Brubaker (20:43)

I mean, I don't know that I would qualify Ghost of Mars as bad. It's not prime, no Carpenter, but, like, I mean, Memoirs of an Invisible Man. Are you going to watch that ever again? No, no. I mean, there's no amount of money. But Ghost of Mars, like, it's so fucking weird. It's almost like the ultimate John Carpenter movie. Cause it has that weird thing where he's always, like, kind of about violence and the downfall of society, but also about matriarchies and, like, powerful women. And so I kind of loved that. I also loved the fact that Courtney Love, like, walked off the street after three days.

June Diane Raphael (21:19)

I want to know that's. I love that. I love that component of it. And I love the John Carpenter. These are my themes. These are the things I'm interested in. It just did not come together satisfyingly in a way, even for us. It was like, what a blast, you know? No, it didn't land right for me.

Ed Brubaker (21:38)

I think it's his era where he got not interested in action scenes. So, like, both vampires and that one, the action scenes often go to, like, a montage showing you what happened in moments, and you're like, well, there are.

June Diane Raphael (21:50)

Or happen off screen. Or like, Pam Grier is killed off screen. Yeah, go ahead.

Paul Scheer (21:55)

The fact that, like, he, you know, does a transition cut or like a. A cut when they're walking down the hallway, a lot of weird editing choices. And I think from reading my interviews with him about this movie, where I feel like it failed was he was trying to make a dumb B movie, but it was too smart to be as dumb. Like, the ending scene, the chrome guns.

Ed Brubaker (22:20)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (22:21)

And like, I'M like, that's the movie.

Ed Brubaker (22:23)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (22:23)

But, like, I think he has a hard time walking that line or. Or, I don't know, it's like presents more serious than I think he intends. And that's where I feel like he needs that help in my mind.

Ed Brubaker (22:37)

No, I agree. I think there must have been some push from the studio on some of this stuff because. Yeah, it's just. It felt like he. To try to address studio notes, tried to do some interesting things in the edit. So it's like you don't see if she dies or not. And like, structurally, it's so weird. But I found it fascinating. And I also loved, like, the dumb performances. And what a weird phase to have Jason Statham, you know, where Jason Statham can't decide if he's bald or has hair.

Paul Scheer (23:05)

We talked about this. This is an important moment for us.

Ed Brubaker (23:08)

Yeah, yeah. No, as a baldist, you know, I. Cause Jason Statham is one of the only bald sex symbols that we get. Like, even in pornography. We don't have bald sex symbols that often.

June Diane Raphael (23:20)

No, you need this in pornography.

Ed Brubaker (23:26)

Thank you. Space at all.

June Diane Raphael (23:29)

Let's be clear. Even in pornography, we don't know.

Ed Brubaker (23:33)

It's rare. I mean, look, Mr. Hair, you're nothing but hare. Paul and I can talk about.

Paul Scheer (23:38)

We.

June Diane Raphael (23:38)

Yes, sorry, I'll walk.

Ed Brubaker (23:39)

We're in the Larry David club. Yes.

Paul Scheer (23:41)

This is important for us. We look at these bald men.

Ed Brubaker (23:43)

Jason just turned his screen off.

Paul Scheer (23:47)

I will say that there are some things that I really love about it, I think. And I know this is now probably just a rumor. It's not true that this was supposed to be like the third Escape from movie, like Escape from Mars, because, like, Desolation Williams looks and dresses like snake Pilskin. Plus skin. Sorry. And, you know, but I would have loved Kurt Russell, like, that would have. I think they just want. You wanted some more dumb stuff. It just.

June Diane Raphael (24:18)

What the movie lacked that so many other John Carpenter movies have is everybody is dour and down. Yes. Nobody has that light touch. Nobody can. Nobody has that kind of that swagger, that wink that, you know, everybody is, like, gritty and realistic or trying to be in a way that is like, oh, I need somebody who has a little bit of a light touch.

Paul Scheer (24:42)

A little bit.

June Diane Raphael (24:43)

Can let the steam out of this.

Ed Brubaker (24:45)

You know, I mean, I think that Ice Cube was intended to be that. And for me, it works. Cause I'm a huge Cube fan.

Paul Scheer (24:52)

I love Cube.

Ed Brubaker (24:54)

And honestly, that's when I. Those are my favorite parts of the movie. Like, literally, I Cannot ever go to that taco shop on Sunset that's, like, right near Descanso without just hearing in my head, drop the gun, Descanso. And, like, just the weird names of characters. I love the dumb shit that Carpenter puts in his stuff that's just so idiosyncratic. And him, like, Desolation Williams. What a fucking name.

Paul Scheer (25:19)

Great name.

Ed Brubaker (25:19)

When I did Sleeper, there's a character named Genocide Jones, and that is a tribute to John Carpenter, the way he names characters. What is it? Napoleon Williams in assault on Precinct 13. It's like Napoleon somebody. It's always like, a really flamboyant first name and a very generic, you know, like. Like Slaughterhouse Bill.

Paul Scheer (25:41)

I mean, it's. It's very Thomas Pynchon. Right. With, like, one battle after another. Like, all the names mean something. But here's the thing. I like Ice Cube. And I think, though he falls into that category of not knowing how to walk that line between dumb, tough guy. Like, that's what, like, Kurt Russell has in spades, right?

Ed Brubaker (26:05)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (26:06)

You believe that he could maybe win in a fight or that, like, he's got a bravado and ego. And I feel like with Cube, it's like, no, this guy's just cool. Like, they're like, no, no, he's the.

Ed Brubaker (26:16)

Same guy from Friday, right?

Paul Scheer (26:17)

Yeah, exactly.

June Diane Raphael (26:19)

He's great, but he lacks that. What's wonderful about Kurt Russell, especially in these movies, let's say big trouble is that character loses fights.

Paul Scheer (26:28)

That character, he basically is hanging.

June Diane Raphael (26:30)

Willing to be embarrassed. You know, you're willing to be. And that we don't have. In this, everybody's at maximum heroism, you.

Paul Scheer (26:38)

Know, I. I agree. Like, you want just somebody that just.

June Diane Raphael (26:42)

Feels like, right, or.

Paul Scheer (26:44)

Or you just have Natasha Hendrich not be like, you need somebody to have. Like, everyone was too cool and too tough. And if that's the version of the movie and you're making a B movie, then you need to make them dumber but also cool and tough. But I feel like they were just cool and tough. But maybe that's directing. I don't know. Everyone seems so pissed off. Every interview that I read, they're like, he fucked us. He thought we were doing.

Ed Brubaker (27:10)

Even Ice Cube is like, I'm a big John Carpenter fan, but don't watch that movie. And I'm like, oh, man. I feel bad because it's like, it's literally the. Is it. It's the last thing Carpenter made that I think is interesting at all.

Paul Scheer (27:20)

Yes.

Ed Brubaker (27:21)

I don't know if he's made Anything.

Paul Scheer (27:22)

He made one movie after that, I think, in 2010.

Ed Brubaker (27:25)

Amber Heard movie or whatever.

Paul Scheer (27:28)

Yes.

Ed Brubaker (27:29)

I mean, she's like, in an insane asylum.

June Diane Raphael (27:31)

I don't know.

Paul Scheer (27:31)

Did John Carpenter ever talk about working with Chevy Chase? Because that is really interesting to me.

June Diane Raphael (27:37)

Yeah, I don't love to know.

Paul Scheer (27:39)

Oh, that to me is like, that. Because that's kind of peak Chevy Chase, like, right. Where he's like, not peak, but like, oh, it's not going to go great. Right? Like, but like, you could tell he'd be like, an asshole. Oh, I bet you there's some good stories there.

June Diane Raphael (27:56)

Also, because John Carpenter is so. No bullshit.

Paul Scheer (27:59)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (28:00)

He's like, he. He says what's on his mind.

Paul Scheer (28:03)

I love true.

Ed Brubaker (28:04)

Apparently, according to the blank check, Beverly d' Angelo is the only person who has never said a bad thing about Chevy Chase.

Paul Scheer (28:13)

There's always, always one defender only. Always one only.

Ed Brubaker (28:18)

I will point out Beverly d' Angelo was married to, like, Al Pacino forever. So, like, Chevy Chase is probably not a big deal to deal with.

June Diane Raphael (28:25)

So much more easier to handle.

Paul Scheer (28:27)

I did a short film with Beverly d', Angelo, who was absolutely lovely, very sweet, kind. But the funniest detail I remember is that we were going to set. We were at this restaurant, and she pulled up the set and gets out of the car, and she's like, Al's in there. Like, Al just sat in the car the entire day because we were going to go to a concert that night. So he was just out in the car. The car didn't turn around, the car didn't. Like, he just sat in a parked car for maybe eight, 10 hours. And I love, like, I just love that he was there, didn't come in, didn't roll the window down, just sat in a parked car. And you check all the times.

June Diane Raphael (29:06)

I wonder what the concert was.

Paul Scheer (29:08)

It was like for their kid. I feel like it was like it was a band that both of them would not be going to like.

June Diane Raphael (29:15)

It would be the equivalent of them going Vampire Weekend.

Paul Scheer (29:19)

Like, exactly. It felt like something very odd like that. Just. Just to give you a. A little sneak in, because I had to Google this as we were talking. John Carpenter claimed that Chevy Chase and Daryl Hannah were the stuff of nightmares and impossible to direct. In particular, Chase would often refuse to wear his special effects makeup and would remove it prematurely, ruining a day's worth of filming.

Ed Brubaker (29:45)

Oh, my God. Wow.

Paul Scheer (29:48)

I need to dig into this movie a little bit more.

Ed Brubaker (29:50)

But you're getting Chevy on your show, right?

Paul Scheer (29:52)

Oh, yeah. Chevy will be on the show.

Ed Brubaker (29:54)

He's great at improv.

June Diane Raphael (29:55)

He's gonna, oh, he's so comfortable on stage.

Paul Scheer (30:01)

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Ed Brubaker (33:26)

Yeah, yeah. Criminal. I got. It's been like three years, it feels like since it started, but yeah, no, I. I had developed it at Legendary before the pandemic and then a couple of the people from Legendary ended up being execs at Amazon and so they revived it over there.

Paul Scheer (33:47)

Now, I will say that I got to see two episodes of the show, early cuts. Early cuts of the show. And it was fantastic. You gave me a lifelong dream come true, which was you screened it for me and. Can I mention the other person?

Ed Brubaker (34:01)

Yeah, please.

Paul Scheer (34:02)

Shane Black. It was amazing. It was amazing because I also had.

Ed Brubaker (34:09)

The same note too, which was really annoying.

Paul Scheer (34:13)

The best thing about Shane Black, I will say, as a lifelong fan of him, was he gave notes the way Columbo would leave an investigation like, bag in hand. I'm just about out the door. Turn around like, whoa. And then a half an hour, he was almost out the door, like, well, one more thing, and then had these thoughts. But it was so funny because he had the body language of someone that was leaving but the deep, smart notes of someone who was like, oh, yeah, I'm cracking into this. It was. I loved watching it. I hung on every word. And I think at the beginning he might have thought that I was like an Amazon executive. So I think he was careful to understand who I was before he gave any feedback.

Ed Brubaker (34:57)

I told him who you were.

Paul Scheer (34:58)

All right, good. Well, I am a fan. It was one of the coolest things.

Ed Brubaker (35:02)

That was really crazy because he was mixing the Parker movie at the same time. So he was on the lot for a couple weeks at the same time as us and Shane. I met through Brian Youdovich and Drew Pierce a long time ago, and he's a big fan of Criminal and a big fan of my graphic novels and stuff. So we have gotten together a few times. And, you know, he gives me advice about, like, writing stuff. And, you know, I. I consider him sort of like one of my mentors in this field to some degree. And it's great because so much.

Paul Scheer (35:38)

So, Ed, that on the COVID of your new criminal book, the Knives, you got a Shane Black quote right on the front. Brubaker and Phillips don't hit a wrong note.

Ed Brubaker (35:49)

Yeah, I was very. I was very thrilled about that.

June Diane Raphael (35:52)

There's nobody better.

Ed Brubaker (35:53)

I didn't want to ask him for a while because I was like, I get to know him better before I hit him. I don't want to just have him think, like, I really like the guy. Like, he invited us to a party at his house a little while ago.

Paul Scheer (36:03)

And we got to.

Ed Brubaker (36:05)

It was crazy because it was like a really big, like, Hollywood party. Like, that's in a Shane Black movie. I was just like, oh, wow, okay.

Paul Scheer (36:12)

You gotta say yes to the Shane Black invite. I mean, that's the.

Ed Brubaker (36:15)

Totally. I'm probably more comfortable talking about what happening criminal than I am about that party.

Paul Scheer (36:21)

You should be.

Ed Brubaker (36:21)

I just wanted to say I got invited.

Paul Scheer (36:23)

No, you could say you got invited. But I will say the new book, the new criminal book, Knives, is about this cartoonist who's going to Hollywood in the era of peak TV to work on an adaptation of his comic strip. And. And I'm just. I'm wondering how much of this is based on what you just told us coming to Hollywood to make Criminal.

June Diane Raphael (36:47)

I have to say, it was. I loved this. But I mean, like, just to set it out, I think these books, the Criminal books are some of the great modern books.

Paul Scheer (36:57)

Love them.

June Diane Raphael (36:58)

The Knives catches us up with some of the characters that we've been following in a bunch of other criminal stories. And so it was both great to spend time with characters that I love and that I've been spending time with for years. But then, exactly to Paul's point, the Hollywood stuff was making me laugh so hard. When he gets to go to Town and gets to be part of the room and starts to, like, dress and talk differently and become a douche and then immediately gets kicked out. I was like, this is incredible.

Ed Brubaker (37:29)

I realized after I started it, it needed to be like a Kafka esque story about a guy not becoming a cockroach but becoming a TV writer. Yeah, yeah. Because it is like a metamorphical decision that you can make at some point. And someone asked me how much of it was true and I was like, oh, God. But Jacob is always a worst case scenario character for me. Like, his childhood reflects a lot of pieces of my childhood. Like growing up as a nerd who's like too much of an introvert, but who always wanted to be different. But, like, the emotional parts of his journey of, like, coming to Hollywood and like, going from wanting to be like an individual artist to wanting to just be like a cog in the machine. And how every now and then you wake up and you're like, what the fuck am I doing? And, like, that part of it was very real. And one of the things that I didn't realize, being the showrunner, I guess I realized because I've been in enough television now to know how much rewriting happens after the scripts are already in production or.

Paul Scheer (38:36)

Yeah, you've worked on some very interesting shows that, without naming names, that have had a lot of restructuring after.

Ed Brubaker (38:42)

Yeah, oh, yeah. No, when we were watching episode one of Westworld, we had like, a viewing party at my house of all the season one writers. Our co EP on that first season, literally, I had to stop her from, like, punching the screen because she's like, what is this? Because it was completely different than what we had done. She's like, the first 15 minutes are a completely different show.

June Diane Raphael (39:03)

Westworld, a show that is famously went smoothly.

Ed Brubaker (39:08)

Yeah, it was. I mean, I was on season one when it was. I think everyone still think season one is the best season of that show. And I learned a lot on that show. But, you know, like, all of those scripts, we would write drafts and then the showrunners would rewrite them. But I didn't realize how much on shows where the showrunner isn't adding their name to things that they've literally rewritten sometimes. Almost every. I mean, there are some episodes of Criminal that I rewrote every single word on, and there are some where I only rewrote like 80%, and there's like a couple where I didn't do almost anything, you know, so it was like, oh, this is just weird. But then in Post, you end up doing so much changing and writing and rewriting and adr.

Paul Scheer (39:50)

But that's the job, right? Like, I mean, when you are the. You're the showrunner, you're gonna do so much, you know, work, and your name will always be associated with it. Like, no one will ever say, oh, you know, like, will reference anybody else but Vince Gilligan. When you talk about Breaking Bad, as far as, like, I mean, yes. And there were brilliant writers on there who are, you know, all right.

Ed Brubaker (40:12)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (40:12)

Yeah.

Ed Brubaker (40:12)

But it's like, that was a murderer's row of great writers. Yeah.

Paul Scheer (40:15)

And the same thing for Lost. It's like, that's. You always get that heat. But it's funny when people who are in that position opt to put their name on everything as if they will be forgotten. Or it's like. Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird choice.

Ed Brubaker (40:29)

It's. I gotta say, like, I've talked to a lot of showrunners about it, and coming from comics, it's very weird to me not to have my name on anything I write. I have, like a. Of sort of an authorship kind of ego about it. So it's just. It's a weird thing in the industry. And I can kind of see it both ways, where it's like. I think the problem is that the critical community that talks about television is unaware of it. Or even if they're unaware of it or if they're aware of it, they still feel because so and so was listed as the writer, they want to give that person credit because they don't want to dis. And I agree. Like, I. You know, so it's just. It's just a gray. It's a weird gray area. But, like, the showrunner is really the voice of the show, like, Criminal. In the end of the day, I have credit on one episode, but that show feels more like me and my work than anything else that's ever existed, you know?

Paul Scheer (41:24)

Well, it's interesting because it's like, I think that there's this weird misconception, like, what you're saying. Like, when you go for the Emmys, a show is like an episode is nominated, which I think is such a flawed concept, it should be nominate the show. Right. Who cares about the specific episode? This is the writer's room. This is the thing. And like you said it should be. Everyone should take part in that. Cause a lot of the times what happens is. And I think this is the thing that was written about. In Difficult Men, there was a Sopranos episode that Was written by a junior writer in. And. And. And David. Was it David Chase. Yeah. Was like, upset about it because it was like, oh, this person's out in front of this Sopranos episode. Even though it's you gets gone. It goes through a process. It's not like, you know, it's nothing singular.

Ed Brubaker (42:11)

I mean, famously. Matt Weiner.

Paul Scheer (42:14)

Yes.

Ed Brubaker (42:15)

If you got 20% of your dialogue through a David Chase rewrite, you considered that a victory. Like, if you had any dialogue in an episode of the Sopranos with your name on it that wasn't rewritten by Chase. I mean, by the way, David Chase can rewrite anything I ever write and not put his name on it. I'd be very happy. He is my fucking hero. I can't wait for his MK Ultra show. No, I literally. I have two different showrunner friends who have watched, like, people on their staff win Emmys that, like, they rewrote that episode page one and was like. And the person didn't even thank them. And so it's like, wow, it's a weird. So, like. But how often does that happen to you? Like, once in your life, maybe. So, yeah, it's just a weird industry, and it is very collaborative. So. But because of that, I think going into it, I didn't. I honestly didn't understand how much work I would do in post.

June Diane Raphael (43:11)

Right.

Ed Brubaker (43:12)

Like, by the time I was.

June Diane Raphael (43:13)

That's the final draft in that way.

Ed Brubaker (43:15)

Yeah. It was just me. I remember when I went out to lunch with Shane, like, the next day after that screening, I was saying that to him, and he said, look, writing the. Writing the script and making it like, the script and the production, that's the ingredients.

Paul Scheer (43:31)

Right.

Ed Brubaker (43:32)

Post is when you cook it.

June Diane Raphael (43:33)

Yeah.

Ed Brubaker (43:34)

And it's like, are you a great chef? Do you have great chefs working for you? You know, like.

Paul Scheer (43:39)

Well, but this is like the thing I always. That I found, because as somebody who's written comics, or just a very small handful of them, it was backwards. Right. Because, like, when you get to work in tv, you. You conceive the idea, then you cast people, and it kind of changes. And you're shooting it and it kind of changes again based on location and actors and things that happen in the moment, and then you're editing it and it happens. You know, it's like you're kind of developing all the way from inception to completion, and comics or, you know, or anything, like a graphic novel is locked. Like, you give. I mean, yes, you have your idea, but it's got to go all the way through the process. So I imagine.

Ed Brubaker (44:15)

Yeah. And it's got a deadline usually too.

Paul Scheer (44:17)

Yeah. I imagine that that might have been fun though, to have more time to ruminate within a specific episode or go back, like to do reshoots like you said, you know, and go, oh, I could tweak that. And I didn't realize that that was something that could actually connect here. It's. That's the fun part of it, I think.

Ed Brubaker (44:33)

Yeah, no, I, Yeah, no, I really. I loved post, honestly. Like, it was, it was. It was long at times, but like my, like learning to work with my editors and, and also seeing like, where like, oh, this. This episode isn't working. How can we fix it? And like, restructuring like, it had never occurred to me because Refn, I would look at the cuts and stuff, and he didn't really want to hear what I had to say about what he was doing.

June Diane Raphael (45:00)

That's a. I would love a podcast that would never get published that is just you talking about working with Nick when you.

Ed Brubaker (45:09)

I'm pretty sure he'd be fine with it. Like, I told him that he. That I had based a bad guy in one of my books on. And he's like, oh, you should do a memoir about like our time working together. I could help you with it. I'm like, yeah, Nick, you don't get to write my memoir about. About our crazy relationship.

June Diane Raphael (45:27)

Our show was memoir worthy.

Ed Brubaker (45:29)

I mean, dude. Yeah. There's so many stories show and I. And they keep coming out every now and then and it's just like, oh, wow. Yeah, that was a crazy three years of my life too. It's just. Yeah. But a totally different experience than, you know, doing.

June Diane Raphael (45:43)

But what a sense of authorship you have over a criminal now in a way that. Do you feel like it is as close to the. The kind of work that you and Sean get to do in the, in the. In the books, basically.

Ed Brubaker (45:57)

You know, I mean, I think it's as close to feeling like my books as anything. Like, I've had several things like where people have tried to adapt my stuff that haven't gotten made where I haven't been involved at all. And one of the things that I think I've realized more as I work in Hollywood about what makes my stuff my stuff. I'm not saying my stuff is the greatest stuff. Yeah, you guys obviously think my stuff is the greatest stuff, but it's the greatest.

June Diane Raphael (46:28)

Listen, and I have no problem putting that out into the world.

Ed Brubaker (46:33)

But seriously, I think I realized in the last couple of years because when Other people adapt my stuff. They kind of. Sometimes they miss the part that makes it me. And what I do generally is I use genre tropes or genres to write really character driven, grounded stories where the people within these tropes are acting like real people, like you or me or people, you know, where. So you can identify with these people, but they're in this big genre story. And I also do things to subvert your expectations based on what you think would happen because of the genre. So often when people are adapting my work or have tried in the past to adapt my work into movies and stuff like incognito. Like great writers worked on incognito. But the studios that were trying to turn that into movies didn't understand how you could do a black comedy about a supervillain and witness protection. So they would constantly force them to turn it into a superhero origin story.

June Diane Raphael (47:39)

Yeah.

Ed Brubaker (47:39)

And it's like, well, that's like, no, you're not going to make a superhero origin story about somebody no one's ever heard of.

June Diane Raphael (47:46)

And they want it to be. They would rather it be the. It's literally what happens to Jacob in the Knives.

Ed Brubaker (47:53)

Yeah. You know, they want it to be generic.

June Diane Raphael (47:56)

They take the kind of Kafkaesque character that he's created in the comics of this detective who finds himself in these absurd worlds or these absurd cases, and all they want to make out of it is just a straight PI show without any of the trappings of Kafka, you know. And then Jacob, that's the. That's the crucible that Jacob goes through in his Hollywood chapter in the Knives. And then we find him later and he's back at home, back writing, back in the basement, back drawing and writing comics and appears to be doing like. What's the new character, Ed? It's a beaver.

Ed Brubaker (48:32)

Basil Beaver.

June Diane Raphael (48:33)

Basil Beaver, Private Eye who looks like it's like a black, sad character. I feel like.

Paul Scheer (48:40)

Right.

Ed Brubaker (48:42)

I don't know. That part of it really came out of nowhere. I was like, I like the idea of him sketching and making fun of the producer of the show. And, you know, and I just had this idea that he draws him as like some kind of a beaver, an animal or a weasel or something. And he's masturbating as he's like saying something. And then I. And then I was just like, I. What if when he goes home, he just keeps drawing more funny animal things? And then it becomes like, that's his next thing because he's not going to do Frank Kafka. Anymore because they ruined it.

June Diane Raphael (49:11)

It's so funny.

Ed Brubaker (49:12)

I love.

June Diane Raphael (49:12)

There's so many of your books that take place inside of Hollywood. Whether it's old Hollywood. I'm thinking of Fatale or.

Ed Brubaker (49:23)

Yeah, yeah.

June Diane Raphael (49:24)

Or Fade. The Fade out is another one. Like. And they really are like. I love how much you're interested in excavating the true evil of this town.

Ed Brubaker (49:38)

I mean, look, when I get to, like, a Taylor Sheridan level of success, I'll have other things to write about.

Paul Scheer (49:44)

Are you gonna also follow him to Universal?

Ed Brubaker (49:48)

I mean, he doesn't get there for three years. Maybe I'll get there first.

June Diane Raphael (49:53)

I would love it.

Paul Scheer (49:54)

That's the best. I love throwing down the gauntlet like that. Yeah. Fuck yeah.

June Diane Raphael (49:57)

I would love it if by the time Taylor Sheridan gets to Universal, you've already got Kill or Be Killed and Velvet On.

Ed Brubaker (50:04)

It's funny. I'm like, wait, are we dissing him?

Paul Scheer (50:07)

No, no, not at all.

Ed Brubaker (50:08)

Like, I love him.

Paul Scheer (50:11)

He is a guy. I mean, he's a guy.

June Diane Raphael (50:12)

Want us to be on Landman.

Ed Brubaker (50:14)

You would be so amazing as a cartel guy on Land Man.

June Diane Raphael (50:17)

Please.

Ed Brubaker (50:17)

A cartel lawyer?

June Diane Raphael (50:18)

Come on.

Paul Scheer (50:19)

It's. I just started watching it. It's awesome. I like Lioness. I like all these shows. They're like. But like, it's amazing to me. Someone told me a story about him, about Tulsa King, which I loved, which was he talked to Stallone on the phone and was like, well, what do you want to do? And Stallone, like, you know, told him, I like this, this. And he's like, okay, got it. And then within four hours, delivered a. An hour long show to Stallone. He's like, all right, I'll do this.

Ed Brubaker (50:50)

Well, it was a rewrite of another pilot, though.

Paul Scheer (50:52)

Okay, got it. Okay. Okay.

Ed Brubaker (50:55)

Yeah.

Paul Scheer (50:55)

All right. That makes more sense.

Ed Brubaker (50:56)

I just heard Terry Winter is coming back on that show because I think in the new season, Stallone was basically the showrunner.

Paul Scheer (51:03)

Yeah, I had auditioned for something on there. I was very excited about it. And the word I had gotten back was there's not really a room or a showrunner. So it's. It's gonna. I was like, oh, okay.

June Diane Raphael (51:16)

Wow.

Ed Brubaker (51:17)

It is a. I mean, a lot of my crew came from Bass Reeves actually, like, oh, wow. Like, my line producer had done Bass Reeves. And so, yeah, I had a lot. That was actually the only way we were able to get Garrett for Teague Lawless. Cause he's Tulsa King. We had good relationships with 101 Studios. We were able to, like, get them to move him around a Little bit. That's why that reshoot was so crazy that Jason was part of.

Paul Scheer (51:44)

Because, yes, Jason, we can reveal you are a part of the televised criminal universe now.

June Diane Raphael (51:50)

Oh, yeah. Don't, don't. If. Don't get it twisted, everybody. I am the star of Amazon's Criminal.

Ed Brubaker (51:57)

It is a pivotal role. Yeah, Jason. Jason was part of those reshoots. But, yeah, we did because of actor schedules. Now sometimes it's so crazy trying to get like. I think my friend had a show and because of an actor schedule, they had to run for like, a week. They had to run four sets to be able to shoot this actor out for the whole show in one week. So it was like, oh, shit. Like so. Yeah, when you get like. So it was like. Our reshoot schedule was literally just built around being able to. Oh, we only have Garrett for these two days. And so we shot. We shot in three days. We shot seven days worth of material. We had two sets running and a second unit.

Paul Scheer (52:40)

I will never forget when. When June's dad passed away, I was in Chicago and there was, you know, I couldn't get to, like, it was a timing thing, right? My flight was going to leave at 11 o' clock at night to get to New York. And I was on this independent movie and they knew that if they lost me for, like, these four days, it would kind of screw up things. The way that they maneuvered that one day to shoot five days of work into this one long day and I made my flight, it was something I will never forget. I was like, holy shit. Like, when Pete, like, we. I mean. Cause, like, it was a big deal, you know, amazing. It was truly an epic feat where, like, things are changing. Set dressing is going. I'm getting, like, appliances put on me. It was. It was really impressive. And, you know, it's not ideal, obviously, but it's amazing when. When you can make those choices. I think in a weird way, too, you become looser. You can't hold on to anything. You're like, all right, we're just going. We're gonna get this thing. And maybe you find something cool in that moment, too.

Ed Brubaker (53:46)

Yeah, no, I love that. I loved the production. And yeah. I mean, being a showrunner is a really, really fucking hard job with a lot of the parts that I didn't like about the job were just the frustrating parts of the waiting or the having to deal with too many people. People's opinions about a thing. But, like, the working with the actors and the crew and the directors and, like, I. You know, I Directed, like, the second unit for our reshoots because, like, I had given up the idea that I wanted to direct. I originally came to Hollywood because I wanted to write and direct, like, and, you know, I got to sit next to D. Reese on an Apple box for three. And it was like, the best film school ever. And, like, my camera operator, Matt Moriarty, is like, one of the best Steadicam operators in the world. And, you know, I just worked with these, like, world class, like, actors and crew and.

Paul Scheer (54:40)

Well, that's the thing. The show looks amazing and it's big. It's a big fucking show. And I feel like that's the thing that I was really not shocked at. But, like, you know, I think sometimes when, you know, it's a streaming show, you see where the seams are, like, or the cuts. Like, you know, we're talking about John Carpenter not wanting to shoot. Action. And you see, like, sometimes shows will move away from that every now and then. Like, they'll really lean in. But this is a show that feels like a movie. It feels like it has all those things that we know from big budget. You know, it just has a pace and a tone and energy. It's great.

June Diane Raphael (55:14)

I think what's also great about Criminal specifically is both in book form and now in your adaptation. These are. The scale and scope of these stories is massive. The books take place over the last 50 years.

Ed Brubaker (55:32)

Yes, 70.

Paul Scheer (55:33)

Correct.

June Diane Raphael (55:34)

70 now. Okay, so like the. Oh, yeah, because now we've caught up.

Ed Brubaker (55:37)

To modern day and the dying starts in, like, 1952 or something.

June Diane Raphael (55:42)

Yeah. Okay, so. So what's crazy is you are constantly pushing us through time, not only with these characters who we visit at different times in their lives, but we're also following these characters, families, as we're. We're following father. It's. I mean, so much of it is fathers and sons, right? Both on the. The criminal side. Mothers and daughters.

Paul Scheer (56:06)

By the way, can I give you my. My best note? I was pitching a show, a movie, actually, to, again, Giant Person. And. And I. And it was a comedy and it was about a father and son. And the person stopped me in the middle of the pitch and said, I gotta stop you. There's never been anything funny about a father and son relationship. And I was like, oh, thank you. I get. Oh, sure. It was the craziest note I've ever gotten and easily disputable. But it was like, I'm just gonna.

Ed Brubaker (56:41)

Go to a show. I hate Frasier. That's funny.

June Diane Raphael (56:45)

Wait, how do you hate fr. Wait minute. Wait, how are you hating Frasier? Ed, what are you talking about?

Ed Brubaker (56:51)

I'm just mad at him because I was in love with Lilith.

Paul Scheer (56:54)

Oh, wow. For you to come. For you to come that way to it. Oh, my Lord, I love it. Oh, well, guys, I'm so sorry. I have to run to go work on that movie about the father and son, which is now a very serious drama. All right, I'll let you guys take it away.

June Diane Raphael (57:13)

Okay. We've lost Paul, which is great because now Ed and I, we can just talk about comics. Because, Ed, I feel like there's been a long time, correct me if I'm wrong, where a bunch of these books have been out of print or difficult to find and now they are back or they are coming back.

Ed Brubaker (57:30)

I think it's just been. Yeah, I think it's just been that they've been. They haven't been out of print, but I've been having to reprint them a lot. But yeah, no, I reprinted all the Criminal books. Sean did these new designs and new covers, so they're all branded and I forced him to redesign the whole thing so that we would have these brand spanking new additions ready for when the show debuts. And that's been fun to do.

June Diane Raphael (57:54)

And these are books that if you have not yet gotten, I cannot recommend them enough. These are stories that are so fantastic and have been unfolding now for decades. 20 years, right?

Ed Brubaker (58:05)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (58:06)

But not only. I know we're talking a lot about Criminal. I feel like you've got a new volume of the Friday books collected.

Ed Brubaker (58:12)

Yeah. Which I think is Friday Deluxe hardback coming out, which.

June Diane Raphael (58:16)

This was one of my favorite things that you did in recent years that I feel like I was caught by surprise when you started doing it because it was one of the books that was launched as an online only book that has now migrated to physical copies. And it's you and is it Marcos Martin?

Ed Brubaker (58:35)

Yeah, it's Marcos Martin.

June Diane Raphael (58:37)

The absolute genius. Marcos Martin.

Ed Brubaker (58:40)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (58:41)

This book is incredible. And is this as close to an all ages book as you get?

Ed Brubaker (58:47)

I think so. I mean, there's fucking and swearing, but I guess so. Yeah, but it's. I mean, I would give it to teenager 14. I stupidly thought. My friend, my friend Tom, who is a writer director I was working with on a movie a couple years ago, has, I want to say, an 8 and a 10 year old. And I thought they're really interested in comics and I said, look through this and blank out all the swearing and stuff. And I forgot about the monsters. And one of Them. Brought one of them to school and got sent home. Yeah, they got sent home from school. They were having like a little bit of a panic attack. So 8 might be too young.

June Diane Raphael (59:29)

I got my nieces. I got all my nieces T shirts. I had them custom made T shirts that just said poop on them. And. And I was like, I. I was very clear. Just to save their parents the headaches. I was like, these are only for at home.

Ed Brubaker (59:43)

Only.

June Diane Raphael (59:43)

These are at home shirts. Okay. Everybody was excited, but one of like a 10 year old snuck it into school and changed at school and then got in trouble. And so everybody got in trouble. And it was really juicy. I loved it. It was.

Ed Brubaker (59:58)

That's the kind of uncle I like to be too.

June Diane Raphael (59:59)

Classic uncle shit.

Ed Brubaker (60:01)

Yeah. I didn't. I'm not a dad. So I'm the. I'm the uncle who's like, why is Uncle Ed outside smoking pot? It's like, because he doesn't have kids.

June Diane Raphael (60:11)

The best. I also want to shout out the. One of my favorite series that you've been doing in recent years are the Reckless books, which are a series of like PI. I mean, if I was talking about it as a TV show, I would say case of the week. These are. These are pulpy, you know, pulpy. Read quick read books that are just a single case. They're not as sprawling as the criminal stories are or some of the ones that have these long tail effects into other books. The Reckless books, though, they relate to each other. They are very concise in a lot of ways. And they're great.

Ed Brubaker (60:47)

Yeah, the first five of them cover the 80s. Basically they go from 1981 to 1989 or something.

June Diane Raphael (60:56)

And for guys our age, for middle aged guys, it is the sweet of PI stories in that it is a Vietnam vet who is down on his luck who now owns a movie theater in downtown la and just show. It's like all I want is to live inside of these stories.

Ed Brubaker (61:15)

Yeah, it's very much my. I made a list of like the things because if you have a recurring detective character, you have to give them like these eccentric things that like. So I was like, what would I want if I. I had been holding onto that idea for like 20 years of like a main character who lived in a movie theater.

Paul Scheer (61:34)

Great.

Ed Brubaker (61:34)

And just. But didn't let people in.

June Diane Raphael (61:37)

Yeah.

Ed Brubaker (61:37)

Like, it's just my movie theater.

Paul Scheer (61:39)

Yeah.

Ed Brubaker (61:40)

He's like sitting in there with just him and his assistant watching movies and it's like, you know, this place is a. This is my holy spot. Like no. And yeah. I'm my friend Duffy and I who was on Barry and is like the number two on the lowdown. We're currently adapting that as a movie for Amazon that Sebastian Stan has attached to star.

June Diane Raphael (62:00)

Incredible. Thank God. Because that's something that I've asked you multiple times to let me adapt and you have said no, I'm doing it. And it is one of my all time favorite books. One of my favorite all time ongoing series rather. And I cannot wait to see it adapted. I think it's an incredible series. I wanna ask you about. I've asked you this before, but I'm gonna ask you again because when you publish books in single issues, you always put in back matter.

Ed Brubaker (62:34)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (62:34)

You always put in. At the end of every issue will be an essay about a film. Usually films. A series of essays across the run of a book that are speaking that are. You have a friend or a film critic that are. Yes. That are related to the book that you're reading. The movies that relate to the. Or sometimes you'll publish the music that you've been listening to or whatever. But, but especially to me, I've found so many great movie recommendations on those nights where I'm like, what do I want to watch? I have a list in my phone that are like the movie recommendations from the, from the back of Ed Brubaker books. And that's, that's like real stuff. So like where does that live? Anywhere. Because you've fastidiously will not put it anywhere. But those books to incentivize people to buy single issues, I think in a great way.

Ed Brubaker (63:29)

I mean it was partly to incentivize people, but partly to just make the single issues something special. But the thing is a lot of those, I mean I wrote a lot of them at first and then I started having friends write them. Like my friend Jess Nevins wrote a lot of the ones that are about pulp history. And then Devin Farachi wrote a bunch of them and you know, and then he got canceled and. And then Kim Morgan took over for a long time, for years writing them. And like I just paid everybody like a flat fee to. For like one time printing rights. So like the only thing we own officially is the, the, the art that Sean did for the essays. So to be able to do like a printed collection of all of them, I would need to go back. It's like I've got to get Patton and you know, some people are dead now who wrote some of them. And it's like I can't Get a waiver signed by them. Like, I've thought maybe put up all of them on like a website. Because then it's like no one's making money off of it. And maybe that. Maybe that's a way around it. I think everyone would be happy if I printed a book with them. I think the people who wrote them would probably be happy. The reason I didn't do them in the books originally was cause I didn't want to detract from the books. And I wanted people to. Just because you don't get to the end of a crime novel and have an essay about Night of the Hunter by the author's friend.

June Diane Raphael (65:01)

But boy, does it also give us incredible Sean Phillips. Like Robert Mitchum, Lee Marvin.

Ed Brubaker (65:07)

Like, Sean started doing those and then got hired by Criterion almost immediately. He did like Sweet Smile of Success, Blast of Silence, because he did that illustration for Blast of Silence in the back of our comic when Patton wrote about it. And then Criterion, one of our readers is the art director of Criterion. And so Criterion optioned that movie and hired Sean to do like a whole comic book adapting the opening sequence and do a new painted cover. And it's like. So I was like, wow. An article in the back of Criminal by Patton Oswalt got Criterion to release a movie that was.

June Diane Raphael (65:46)

Isn't that it?

Ed Brubaker (65:46)

That was the most influential movie on Martin Scorsese that no one had ever heard of.

June Diane Raphael (65:51)

Incredible. Incredible.

Ed Brubaker (65:52)

And I only know about that movie because Patton told me about it. Like, I. That's the thing I miss about the single issues. Is that part of it? Like the building of the community?

Paul Scheer (66:03)

Yes.

Ed Brubaker (66:03)

And I do kind of miss that. Graphic novels. Yeah. We have a. Next month, we have a. It's called Giant sized criminal number one. And it's just like a big 48 page criminal. One shot. I think it comes out like the first week of December in comic stores. And it's print only, comic stores only. And I wanted to really reward the comic stores and like, sort of incentivize them to know nobody can get this anywhere but at you. So buy a lot of them, please.

June Diane Raphael (66:33)

Yeah. And this is like, really find your local store, go buy it. This is not like. And you've done this before, you know, did you. I think you did this with maybe Cruel Summer.

Ed Brubaker (66:43)

Did you or. Well, when I put out hardbacks, I don't do digital versions until the paperback. Yeah. So because it's like you can't get a hardback book on your Kindle. You know, it's like, I noticed like Dan Clowes and Chris Ware books are not available at all digitally. And I'm like, yeah, because it's a part of the experience is holding it in your hand and reading it. But like, in that single issue, I got Kieran Gillan. My friend Kieran is like a big comic book writer and game guy. And I got him to write a criminal RPG module that Sean illustrated. So there's like a criminal game that you and your friends can play with a deck of cards and a table. You can imagine you're sitting in the undertow punch post heist trying to. Trying to backstab each other and dealing with a game master. And Kieran wrote that whole thing for me and Sean illustrated it. So that's like one of our extras in this big 48 page thing. And then I wrote like a sort of intro to who the who all who the world and characters of criminal. And you know, so it was like fun to do that. So I think we may, you know, try and do that stuff once in a while just because I just like, you know, being able to create like fun art objects that really entertain the community, you know.

June Diane Raphael (67:55)

And I think you are. You also are constantly working with a list of collaborators who I think really reward that, you know, like, even what you did with. Are they called the Martini Editions, the Darwin book?

Ed Brubaker (68:08)

Oh, yeah, the Martini Editions.

June Diane Raphael (68:10)

These are the adaptations of the Parker books that Darwyn Cook did that they then published in large format that you, I feel like, were very involved in shepherding into existence. Am I misrepresenting that?

Ed Brubaker (68:22)

I mean, I was part of their PR campaign a little bit, I think. Cause I wanted to sort of champion that because Darwin had always really wanted to do those. And so when they put out the first one, we did like a big roundtable interview. Me, him and the editor, Scott Dunbier and Tom Spurgeon, who died a few years back, sadly, one of my best friends. And then in the second Martini edition, Darwin had passed away, like really tragically. And suddenly I found out he was sick the day like before he died.

Paul Scheer (68:56)

Oh, wow.

Ed Brubaker (68:56)

So, yeah, it was.

June Diane Raphael (68:58)

Well, I didn't know. It was so sudden.

Ed Brubaker (69:00)

It wasn't as it was. It was a few months, I think, of, you know, but it was. It was a thing where everybody thought he was getting better. And then he suddenly took a turn, it sounds like. But. But so for that book, like, Sean and I oversaw that book, like edited it and designed. Sean designed it. And then we did a new original story for the end of it. And I felt too weird Writing a Parker story. So I wrote a Grofeld story about Parker and about Missing Parker as, like, a tribute to Westlake and to Darwin. But I. Because of that, I had to. I have the unique distinction of being the one of the only people ever to get permission to write an original Parker story by Donald Westlake's widow. And I had to write the story first and submit it.

June Diane Raphael (69:50)

Oh, interesting. That makes sense. And we've come full circle. Shane Black's new movie, Play Dirty, is an adaptation of one of the Parker books.

Ed Brubaker (69:58)

So we did it. I think it takes two or three pieces from different ones. And then to me, that movie. I really liked that movie. I thought it was a lot of fun, but I felt like it felt like a weird mishmash between a Richard Stark Parker, but also a little bit like one of the Grofeld books. But also about 50% like a Shane Black movie.

June Diane Raphael (70:22)

Yes. Very clearly. What I feel like it is, when it wasn't Parker, it felt Shane Black.

Ed Brubaker (70:29)

Yeah. And it was like. And I think that was, like, one of those ones where, like, the parts that I like the most about it, I think, are the things that the critics maybe didn't like. Like, people don't understand Parker as a character.

June Diane Raphael (70:41)

Not at all. They want him to be likable.

Ed Brubaker (70:44)

Yeah. They want him to talk about his feelings and have.

June Diane Raphael (70:46)

Not at all. Never. He is never gonna do that.

Ed Brubaker (70:49)

Yeah. I told Shane. I was like, this is one of the best portrayals of Parker since Lee Marvin, honestly.

June Diane Raphael (70:54)

Because this stoic asshole.

Ed Brubaker (70:56)

Yeah. But that's what people don't get. They're like, oh, they want. And it's like. Like maybe Wahlberg, who's usually such a charismatic guy, usually very funny in things. Like, I always think of him in the other guys and. Oh, yeah. You know, and. And the Daddy movies.

Paul Scheer (71:14)

Yep. Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (71:14)

Daddy.

Ed Brubaker (71:15)

Like, all his stuff with Will Ferrell is what I think of. And I. You know, I love those. Oh, yeah. So seeing him as Parker, I was like. Honestly, I was relieved that it wasn't Downey because I couldn't imagine a version of Downey. Downey as Parker because he.

June Diane Raphael (71:27)

Well, Downey wants. He wants to be liked so much.

Ed Brubaker (71:30)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (71:30)

You know, and that's not Parker.

Ed Brubaker (71:31)

No. I mean, Downey's one of the best actors in the world. I mean, Kiss Bang Bang is still incredible, you know.

June Diane Raphael (71:37)

Incredible shame, because he's perfect for Shane.

Ed Brubaker (71:40)

Yeah.

June Diane Raphael (71:40)

I feel like he's perfect for Shane Black.

Ed Brubaker (71:42)

But I remember when he was listed, I was like, oh, no, that's. Yeah, he should Be Grofeld, the guy who talks too much and is an actor and it's like flamboyant and stuff. Like. But Shane was like, no, he wants to do like a Lee Marvin. And I was like, oh, cool, well, let's see it. And then, of course, you know, he. He didn't do it. And they got Wahlberg instead. And Wahlberg really does, sort of. He's closer. He's very, like, tight lipped and tough and, you know, so I felt like it was a. It was a really good Parker. But then when I was looking at some of the reviews the first day, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna stop reading these because, yeah, I didn't read. It's like the same thing when, like, the guy who's the. Who's the, like, main critic for the Times doesn't understand what a showrunner does. You know, you're just kind of like, okay, so you don't know anything about Parker, but you're gonna review this movie. So. Okay, but that's. That's. That's it. That's where we are. That's where we are.

June Diane Raphael (72:29)

That's where we are.

Ed Brubaker (72:30)

But I just am hoping that we get like another Nice Guys movie or something, because I just feel like the Nice Guys is a movie that gets better every time I watch it.

June Diane Raphael (72:38)

Give me more. Give me more of that. Absolutely. Well, I'm being told we gotta wrap up. Ed, I could literally talk about this for the next two hours. You're one of the greats. Thanks for making the time.

Ed Brubaker (72:48)

Thank you.

June Diane Raphael (72:48)

And I cannot thank you enough for having me on Criminal. It was the thrill of a lifetime to spend two hours in makeup, having bruises and cuts applied to my body looking like someone had beaten the shit out of me.

Ed Brubaker (73:05)

It is a pivotal role.

Paul Scheer (73:07)

Thank you again, Ed, for joining us. Now it is the moment you've all been waiting for. It is time to announce our next movie. Next week we'll be going from a slow moving train to a zombie craving brains. Ooh, I love that. That's right. We'll be watching the 1993 teen horror Rom com, My Boyfriend's Back. The movie stars Andrew Lowery and Tracy Lind with an A plus supporting performance by Edward Herman, Mary Beth Hurt, Matthew Fox, and an unhinged Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yes, you don't want to miss this 1. The IMDb breakdown of the plot says a teenage boy comes back from the dead because he's determined to win the most beautiful girl in school. Here's the thing. He's not not her boyfriend. And Jason and June loved this movie. So are they right? Are they wrong? Well, Rotten Tomatoes gives this movie A13, and Ty Burr from Entertainment Weekly says my boyfriend's back is obviously aiming for the subversive high school yucks of 1989 heathers. But the storyline never bothers to make sense, which, honestly, I agree with. Listen to the trailer. They say you only get one chance at life, but for childhood sweethearts Missy and Johnny, true love will never die.

Ed Brubaker (74:15)

He came back from the dead for me. He's a stinking zombie, you idiot.

Paul Scheer (74:19)

He may be dead, right? But his heart still beats for the girl that he loves.

Ed Brubaker (74:23)

I would love to go to the prom with you.

June Diane Raphael (74:25)

Go for it, Jenny.

Paul Scheer (74:27)

Pretty damned active for a dead guy. My boyfriend's back rated PG13. You can rent my boyfriend's back on Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video and Fandango at home separately. I encourage you to check out out Hoopla, Kanopy and Libby, which are digital media services offered by your local library that allow you to consume tv, movies, music, audiobooks and ebooks and comics for free. All right, that's it for Last Looks. If you listen to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please rate and review us. Please make sure that you are following us and have automatic downloads turned on. It helps the show and we appreciate it. Visit us on social media at hdtgm. And a big thank you to our producers, Scott Sonny and Molly Reynolds, our engineer Casey Holford, and our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum, as well as our intern Quinn Jennings. We'll see you next week for My Boyfriend's Back.

Ed Brubaker (75:12)

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast. I'm Gabe Wiedman.

Paul Scheer (75:18)

I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends.

Ed Brubaker (75:20)

For 20 years and we like to.

Paul Scheer (75:22)

Reach out to kind of get advice.

Ed Brubaker (75:24)

On how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables? Can I drink the water at the hospital? My landlord plays the trombone and I.

Paul Scheer (75:34)

Can'T ask him to stop.

Ed Brubaker (75:36)

You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

Paul Scheer (75:40)

I need you guys.

Ed Brubaker (75:50)

Try angel stuff for your tushy. It's made by Angels Soft and Strong.

Paul Scheer (75:56)

Budget friendly.

Ed Brubaker (75:59)

The choice is simple.

Paul Scheer (76:01)

Pick up a pack today.

Ed Brubaker (76:02)

Angel Soft, Soft and Strong.