Brad Meltzer (10:59)

Whoa.

Paul Scheer (11:01)

Yes. And have him be a puppeteer instead of a cartoonist. I love this. And then once he was in the coma, the film would be stop motion and Cage would become one of his puppets. I mean, it's, wow, very Malkovich, right? Being John Malkovich. Unfortunately, producer Chris Columbus insisted that audiences can't relate to an animated character, so the lead would have to be live action the whole time. Since Selleck couldn't do stop motion, he scrapped the puppeteer idea and we got Brad Brendan Fraser as a cartoonist version instead. Just more proof that Chris Columbus was the true villain of this film. And here is some pre production storyboard art from the film where they were still thinking about having Nicolas Cage as the lead. Now you can go on Discord and check out this art. It looks awesome. And wow, what a cooler idea to do this this way. Wow. Now I like the movie more. I like the movie more. If it was all like stop motion, not real people anyway, Nic Cage would have been genius. And we were robbed. Mitch cap a chunk style writes, Griffin gave a valiant defense of this movie, but let's see him explain away Bob Odenkirk doing organ removal on a clothed corpse.

Brad Meltzer (12:14)

Ooh.

Paul Scheer (12:15)

Mitch Capa laying it down. Yeah, look, sometimes you gotta make your day. You don't have time to listen to the scripty. Oh, it was on the other hand. Oh, he should not be fully clothed. No, you gotta shoot the scene. Comedy, people. Comedy with a K. That's what I think that scene is all about. Let's go to the phones. Julian from New York.

Caller (12:38)

Hey, this is Julian calling about the Monkeybone episode. Specifically, Griffin Newman's rousing defense of that shitty insane movie. So Griffin posits that all of these, you know, nightmare inducing figures from history, or Attila the Honey or Jack of a Ripper, they are creative guys who didn't have an outlet yet. So under this theory, just like our heroes do, these guys were bad at crying. They fall into a coma, there's a little murderer in there who takes over their body and does a bunch of bad shit. You guys know where I'm going with this. There is one historical figure who was famously a mediocre artist who took a turn into nightmare inducing, quote unquote, bad shit. Is Griffin suggesting that Adolf Hitler's monkey bone took over his body? Is he saying that Hitler's childhood boner is responsible for World War II and the Holocaust? Is Griffin a Hitler apologist? Hang on. Do we need to cancel Griffin Newman? Okay, bye.

Paul Scheer (13:50)

Wow, Julian, I am not touching that. I am not touching that one bit. Wow. Honestly, on the verge of. Maybe we should edit that out. But no, Griffin is not a Hitler apologist. He is not. We are not canceling Griffin at all. Respect Griffin. He hates ice. He is a defender of democracy. He. He likes Stalin. I know that to be true. All right, let's go back to the phones from Connecticut. We have Sarah.

Caller (14:22)

Hi, Paul. I have to say, I was kind of sad to see you guys did Monkey Bone. It's actually one of my favorite movies. It's just so strange and weird and I've watched it a million times. That being said, it seemed like there was some confusion about Downtown and where.

Caller (14:38)

Monkey Bone came from.

Caller (14:40)

So basically, Downtown is a collection of all of Earth's nightmares. And the reason Monkeybone is in Downtown is because he is the nightmare of Stu. And the only reason he exists is because he used to make horrible scary art from the nightmares that he had before he met his girlfriend. And she told him to switch hands drawing. And he drew Monkeybone. And Monkeybone was a type of nightmare about, you know, boners, I guess. And that's why there's all sorts of different kinds of monsters and stuff. And they explain the reason that people are having less nightmares is because of studies like Julie's doing in order to help people sleep better and sleep meds and stuff. So they want more nightmares to populate their world. I hope that helps. I have seriously watched this movie a million times. But I appreciate your guys commentary. Love you lots and have a good one.

Paul Scheer (15:44)

There's Downtown again. There is Downtown again. And she made me realize. Okay, well, got it. Like downtown. Maybe she'd be called like, Nightmare Town. Oh, man. Yeah. And downtown should be Nightmare Town or Dream Zone. Dreamscape. I saw Dreamscape the movie in the theater. 3D glasses. I was so psyched. And I thought like, that was a time when I thought like, all 3D movies might have nudity in it too. I don't know why I thought that, but I was like hoping that there's like a kissing scene in that movie. I remember I was like, oh, maybe I'LL see some nudity. No, there's no nudity in that movie. Hold on, let me double check. I want to make sure there's no nudity because I remember being quite titillated at Dreamscape. Oh, my God. There was nudity in Dreamscape. I think it was a Kapichi movie. Brief nudity and paranoid politics. Wait a second. PG13? It was PG13 and you saw nudity. I knew it. I knew it. Holy cow. And I believe the nudity was Kate Capshaw. Yeah, I'm right. Wow. I have a mind for remembering nudity. All right, let's go. Like weird little kid pervert. Let's go back to the phones one more time to hear from the Berkshires. That's right, Jamie from the Berkshires. What do you got?

Caller (17:05)

Hi, Paul. I am a longtime listener and I finally got to see you guys live last week in New York and it was a great show. So Edgar Allan Poe in the cast of characters in the prison of Monkeybone was played by Edgar Allan Poe iv. And now he is calling himself the fourth, even though Edgar Allan Poe never had any children. So I believe he is a great, great, great nephew of Poe. And so if you do a little digging into this man, he's very fascinating. He seems to have made an entire career of doing Poe characters and acting work through the Poe connection. And he eventually had his own. I think it was a one man play called Poe zest in 2011 that has some great reviews out there. And an excerpt from one from backstage is if his famous relative knew what he was doing with his legacy, he'd probably wall that nephew into a wine cellar or bury him under some floorboards. So there is that. And I am just a big fan. I hope you guys have a great weekend. Thank you. Bye.

Paul Scheer (18:14)

Wow. Love that. Keeping it in the family. Keeping it in the family indeed. Guys, I have to tell you, I am still shook by my Dreamscape revelation. Anyway, let's go back to the discord. I mean, that Edgar Allan Poe thing was actually pretty great, too. Odd, but great. All right, the mighty beard writes well. Rose McGowan posted about this movie on Facebook and Instagram back in 2016 and revealed some interesting things. Here is her post. Here I am as Miss Kitty in a film called Monkeybone. The movie would have been incredible, at least the underworld part, if the men at 20th Century Fox, the suits, hadn't fired the director, a true artist, Henry Selleck, halfway through filming a profoundly stupid move. Later, Selleck went on to direct Coraline and James and the giant Peach. Both classics. The set design, costumes, prosthetics, actors, all. All at a master level, at least in the underworld part of the film. What Fox turned this film into because of their fear and lack of artistic thinking was a travesty. They truly robbed us, the audience, of a possible classic. Also, fun fact, Monkeybone was based on a graphic novel called Darktown. Why are we calling it Downtown? All right. Oh, wait, hold on. The weenies at Fox changed the name to Downtown because they were scared that African Americans would be upset by. By a psychedelic underground acid trip of a world with a cat for a waitress named Darktown.

Brad Meltzer (19:38)

Huh.

Paul Scheer (19:38)

I'm not following that train of thought, Rose. Anyway, I wonder. Oh, now it's getting weirder. I wonder how many African American women directors they've hired in ratio to white male directors. That's what Fox should have been concerned with. Okay, well, that you kind of pulled yourself out. I don't. Okay, I let it sit. I let it sit because I think there was a. The right energy. Was there? Anyway, Buster Bluth writes at the live show. How is there not a comate chant? Oh, man. Well, Buster, you should have been there. We should have had you. We need a comate. Comate. Coma. Tay. All right. Wow. So many great corrections and omissions this week. Mainly, the best one, in my opinion, is mine about Dreamscape. But look, I'm not gonna give myself the award. Even though I probably deserve it. I'm gonna give one of you the award. I love that we heard a little bit from Rose McGowan. I also love that we have figured out that Edgar Allan Poe keeps it all in the family. But I think, to me, I'm going out on a limb and saying something different. Yes, I know that we've listened to the commentary. Thank you, Dr. Guts. But I gotta say, bingo. Wings. That's a winner. Ghost Mutt. You don't get anything, but you do get this amazing theme song. Hit it.

Brad Meltzer (21:18)

Yes.

Paul Scheer (21:18)

Thank you, Aaron Webb, for that beautiful winner's theme. Remember, chime in with your thoughts on these episodes. Give me a call. 619p a u l a S K. Call at any time. It's a Google line. You're not going to get anyone to pick up. So call, leave a message. Have a fun fact. Give me something. Coming up after the break, Jason and I will chat with Brad Meltzer and I will announce our next movie. But first, take a listen to this bonus deleted scene from our Monkeybone episode where Jason and I discuss our experiences taking the train to the show while.

Jason Mantzoukas (21:46)

A woman had the loudest cell phone conversation from Washington D.C. all the way to New York, screaming into her cell phone. I was like, I am going to fucking murder this person.

Paul Scheer (22:01)

I sat next to a very lovely lady who dinged her elbow against the window and we talked about that for about 10 minutes.

Jason Mantzoukas (22:08)

Wait, you're talking to people on the train?

Paul Scheer (22:11)

Not willingly.

Jason Mantzoukas (22:12)

Huge mistake. I put on headphones. If anybody tries to talk to me, I'm like, nope, that's not happening.

Paul Scheer (22:19)

Here's why I think she started talking to me because I did have a mahjong card out in my lap and I was playing online mahjong. I. I think I was an easy target for an older woman.

Jason Mantzoukas (22:32)

Yeah, big time.

Paul Scheer (22:33)

She's like this person.

Jason Mantzoukas (22:34)

Wait, I'm sorry, were you trying to pick up an old woman? Because if not, that is a sure fire way like.

Paul Scheer (22:43)

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Brad Meltzer (24:53)

How did this get made?

Paul Scheer (24:54)

Welcome back. By now I'm sure you've all noticed that every week we re release an old how did this get made Episode back into our fe. These matinee episodes now come out every Tuesday to pair with Monkeybone. This week's matinee was another movie about a cartoonist interacting with his own creations. I'm talking about 1992's Cool World. And next week's matinee we'll learn all about June's hatred of breakdancing when we watch Body Rock with guest Alison Bries. So keep on checking off all of our replays of classic episodes every Tuesday. And now, without any further ado, it is time to welcome Jason and a very special guest. That's right, we've teased him throughout the show, the one, the only, Brad Meltzer, whose brand new book Viper is in bookstores right now. And people, you're gonna love it. You're gonna rate it, you're gonna read it all up. But you know what, let me have him tell you all about. But first, John Cohen play.

Brad Meltzer (25:58)

Just chat.

Paul Scheer (25:59)

Just chat about it.

Caller (26:01)

Just chat about it.

Paul Scheer (26:02)

Yeah. Brad, so excited to have you back on the show. It's been too long.

Brad Meltzer (26:10)

Yeah. Good to see you guys.

Jason Mantzoukas (26:11)

Thrilled to have you here, Brad.

Paul Scheer (26:13)

Brad, one of our most accomplished guests on the show. You are Emmy nominated, a number one New York Times bestselling author. You're writing comic books, you're writing nonfiction books, you're on a book tour. But your new book, the Viper, I am fascinated about this. Jason and I were talking about this before you came on because this is the third book in your Zig and Nola series and this is all about people who are disappearing, right? I mean like you are in the world or you know a lot about how people disappear, whether it's witness protection program.

Jason Mantzoukas (26:50)

You're in the world of disappearing people, right?

Brad Meltzer (26:54)

I do. No, listen, there is, there is a in my phone. My wife knows if anything happens to Me, there is a guy to call that little. I said put in the word kidnap. And it is literally, I'm like, you call him and he's going to be the one to find.

Jason Mantzoukas (27:08)

We're going to need that info, Brad.

Brad Meltzer (27:09)

Yes, you need to be found. I mean, but that's the. If you, if you write thrillers for a living, that's what you have to be moving in, right? You have to find like I found this book. It's a crazy story. I was in a funeral home as one is, right? And. And this guy's showing me, you know, he's showing me around the funeral home doing research for one of the thrillers. And he opens up, I see a closet with a padlock. And I'm like, well, that's obviously the most interesting place now, right? So what's in the, what's in the closet? And he opens it up and he's got all these old kind of like 90s era suits and sequin gowns. And it's all the clothes that people pick out that they want to be buried in before they die. So especially if you have no family, you pick out what you wear. And so. And it's got like, you know, a Jets jersey and like a hat that like a guy wants to wear cause his ex wife hates that hat. And he's like, put me in the hat. You know, like. And so like, people are, you know.

Paul Scheer (28:01)

Vindictive but just realizing that that's hilarious. Like to bury them in the wrong. Like, like not their fandom, like. Or like, I mean, is it like, could you.

Brad Meltzer (28:09)

No, he wants to hat. He's like, my wife hates this hat. But I love it, right?

Paul Scheer (28:14)

I love it.

Brad Meltzer (28:15)

Like, my father is buried in a hat that says Best pop. My dad is buried in a baseball cap because he was just like, f everything, man. I don't care. He's like, he wants to like wear the baseball. Like, my dad took a picture for his driver's license in a baseball cap.

Paul Scheer (28:28)

My stepfather is buried in a Walt Disney World T shirt.

Brad Meltzer (28:32)

Fantastic.

Paul Scheer (28:33)

It says like, I'm your Mickey. And that was it. And. But I will tell you, like, there is something about being in a funeral home because when no one's there, I think I'm used to being there where, you know, there is a, like there's a pomp and circumstance. You're coming in, people are grieving, there's a lot going on. But in those quiet times, in those in between times when they're not selling you on anything or not showing you like, I imagine that is, you know, a place that's a little bit more unexamined than we probably even realize. Like you're saying, like, there's a closet full of clothes.

Brad Meltzer (29:06)

And not only that, but you get the full attention of the guy walking you around. So I'm like, tell me about everything in here. And I was like, what I realized is if you know, so. So the book opens and like, guy walks into a funeral home. He's carrying a blue suit, and it's a suit he wants to be buried in. Just exactly what I saw that day. But what I realized that day is if you go to a bank and you open up a new bank account, there's a file that's filled out and paperwork that's done. Government wants to track you, they'll find you. You go to the UPS store and open up a PO box, there's paperwork done. If the government needs to find you, they can figure it out and track you down. You know, there's like Wi fi cookie jars now tell you who stole the last chocolate chip, right? But if you take the outfit that you're going to be buried in and you secretly sew something inside that suit and you give it to the local funeral mortician, and he puts it in his closet with the padlock on it, you have the ultimate hiding space that no one will ever track. And basically that's what happens. The guy walks in, hands it over, hides something in it. He goes back to his motel room. They're like, where is it? He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. They shoot him dead. And basically the suit winds up in the hands of no one that you would ever expect. I just ruined chapter one of the Viper for you. But that's chapter one.

Paul Scheer (30:18)

I mean, I'm already in.

Jason Mantzoukas (30:20)

That's great. I love that.

Paul Scheer (30:21)

Now, Zig is a mortician. Like, Zig is one of your characters here in the book. And this idea that. I forget if I'm misremembering it, but, like, does Zig work at the Dover Air Force Base or. Okay, so the Dover Air Force Base, the most secretive funeral home in. In the world or the country?

Brad Meltzer (30:41)

In the. In the whole country. So I. I do a lot of work with the uso. They bring over, you know, in the uso, they bring over thriller writers. I mean, they actually, like, we went. We went the day after the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders and like the MMA fighters. And then it was like a bunch of authors.

Paul Scheer (30:56)

I went after football players and Models and it's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard.

Brad Meltzer (31:00)

My friend was like, can you tape the audible sigh when you walked in the room? Like, I want to hear how it all just went down.

Jason Mantzoukas (31:07)

They keep asking me to go with all the models. They keep being like, you're a model, right?

Brad Meltzer (31:13)

100%. You should, by the way, go. Anyone should go, like.

Paul Scheer (31:16)

And so USO is one of the best experiences I've ever been in because they take care of you. But one of the things I love is they do want to get people pumped about you being there. And when I went, we were there with Rob Riggle, who was on the Daily show shooting pieces for the Daily Show. But Horatio Sands was with us as well. And I guess the only thing they could get their hands on was a movie called Boat Trip, which might be routinely viewed as not the best film, but every serviceman that we met had gotten it from, like, the, like, the store. Everyone knew Boat Trip. I was signing boat trip DVDs on that tour.

Brad Meltzer (31:54)

Whatever they give you. Yes, whatever they give you, you are. It is the best. Like, your worst book is the best book. When you're in the desert.

Paul Scheer (32:00)

Yes.

Brad Meltzer (32:00)

So you're just. Everything is. It's great. Like, I remember they had Al Roker's book in the. In the thing. And I texted him and I was like, dude, they got your book here. And he's like, oh, my gosh, I got that book nowhere. You know, but they got it there. And he was like, the star. But, yeah, so. So I'm there and I. And that's where I found out about Dover. And I. I didn't know what Dover was. But you've seen it. It's where all the. Those flag covered coffins. When a soldier dies, it comes off the thing and everyone salutes. But what I figured out and what I realized is Dover is where all our fallen soldiers go, but it's also where all our astronauts go. Like when the space shuttle exploded. It's where all of the nine, 11 victims from the Pentagon went there. It's also where all of our spies, our 007s around the globe, when they go on a mission and die, their bodies go to Dover. Which means Dover is a place that's filled with secrets. And I love secrets.

Paul Scheer (32:50)

So I'm like.

Brad Meltzer (32:51)

So I went in there and my main character works out of Dover. And it's just, you know, the morticians there will rebuild someone's jaw and smooth it over with clay for 12 hours because some mother wants to See her son in the coffin one last time. Rebuild someone's hand. Because a mother says, I want to hold my son's hand one last time. Like, so good luck making a joke at the end of this, you know, description. But, like, it's just like, the best of the best of us working on the best of the best of us. And you're. And you go there and you're just humbled. And I was like, I need to set thrillers in this world because the morticians here, they know the real name of that fake person they just brought into Dover. They know the person that. Whose identity they're hiding. Like, I talked to a guy there who was like, on 9 11, he. All of a sudden, all these bodies are coming in. He's putting. Literally putting Humpty Dumpty together, putting pieces of people, trying to figure out who's who. And the FBI comes in and they surround this one body he's working on. He has no idea what's going. He's like, why are you so interested in this one body? And he's. This is the guy flying the plane, and that's who he realizes he's working on. So these guys have the firsthand view to see things like nothing else. And I'm forever a Quincy fan. So Quincy to me is like, this.

Jason Mantzoukas (34:02)

Is just a cooler version that is. I mean, you couldn't have just said a more Gen X statement that you are a huge.

Brad Meltzer (34:10)

Have you looked at the three of us lately? I mean, two bald men and, like, my beard. I mean, of course.

Jason Mantzoukas (34:17)

Oh, my God, Quincy.

Paul Scheer (34:19)

Quincy was. I mean, Quincy was a staple in my house. And it was.

Jason Mantzoukas (34:23)

Quincy was like CSI before csi.

Brad Meltzer (34:26)

Quincy was. Quincy used to be like, the word Xerox. You would just be like, what are you, Quincy? Like, right? And I remember, like, 10 books ago making, like, a Quincy joke in a book. Like, shut up, Quincy or something. And all these Gen Xers like, of course, were like, going on my Instagram going, let's be like, represent babies. Keep it live, Meltzer. Like, it was just like the cult was alive and well.

Paul Scheer (34:48)

What I loved about Quincy Chu is I was so familiar with Jack Klugman from the Couple, right? And it was like, oh, actors can do different things. I think that was, like, my first realization. Like, he's totally different. He's not, you know, 100%.

Brad Meltzer (35:03)

I'm like, that guy is two people officially, and one is serious and one is funny. And I, you know, it was mind blowing.

Paul Scheer (35:10)

I can't believe that we have not done a Quincy remake. I mean, I guess you're right, Jason.

Brad Meltzer (35:14)

By the way, I have pitched it. Not only, like, I 100%. I pitch, like, every Gen X show over again. Like, and I don't even tell them because if they're younger than me, they don't know. And if they're like, unless they're perfectly our age.

Paul Scheer (35:26)

Right.

Brad Meltzer (35:27)

Most of them, you know how Hollywood is. They don't even know. They don't care.

Jason Mantzoukas (35:30)

In a world. In a world in which we can have an equalizer movie franchise and TV show, how can. Why wouldn't we have a Quincy, Quincy Show?

Brad Meltzer (35:40)

Well, someone just wrote me when we announced our book tour, someone wrote to me and said, are you familiar with the show Quincy? I'm like, I've based my life on it. Like, that's not even a simple question to me.

Paul Scheer (35:52)

Well, I mean, how do you get access here? Cause I was thinking about this too. Like, you've been writing for a very long time, and, you know, I talked to you about the biggest fan that I've ever made for you, I believe, is I was reading your book. My dad was visiting out of town. He read it, and now my dad is, like, texting me, like, you get this one. You get this. My dad is, like, devouring.

Brad Meltzer (36:12)

He texted me, he texts me.

Paul Scheer (36:13)

I love that. Yeah. And, like, I just was home for Thanksgiving. He's like, you gotta read this one now. And I was like, great. And like, so. But it's like, you. I think you cross this line of, you know, you're incredibly appealing on all these levels, right? You can get the people who love comics, you can get the people who love, you know, real history. And you have this, like, amazing voice and characterization to write, you know, dramatic thrillers. But you also get real information and you go deep. How do you get the trust of these people or get into these spots? Because no one else is getting there, right? I mean, like, yeah.

Jason Mantzoukas (36:47)

Like, how do you have that fixer in your phone? Like, where.

Brad Meltzer (36:49)

Yeah. I mean, the truth is, is I think sometimes it's just. No one's as nerdy as I am to ask for these things. Like, right. Like, most people, like, take me to the front lines and show me how you kick indoors. And I'm like, you show me the Quincy version of yourself. Like, right. That's part of it. But the other thing is, is some of it is. Is just being nice, right? If someone calls you up and says, hey, and you know, you've done it for roles like, hey, I'm doing a medical show, Can I just follow you around for like, half a day?

Paul Scheer (37:14)

Like, right.

Brad Meltzer (37:15)

99% of people say yes. The benefit I had is some of the books became popular in D.C. and so, like, I got a letter one day from President George H.W. bush. I got a letter from Bill Clinton. And they were like, we read your books. And I'm like, oh. And then I was like, oh, shit. And of course I thought it was fake. I thought the letter was fake. Cause when I used to work in, I was an intern. My first internship ever was in the Senate Judiciary Committee. And we used to take the pen signing machines, and I would take the Senate Judiciary stationary, and I'd sign the Senator's letter. And I'd write to my friends and tell them they were being deported. Because I'm like, what am I gonna do? So I just thought, this is someone playing the joke with me. So I call the office and I'm like, hey, man, there's someone there in the President's office. And say, can you send us a signed book? And I'm like, someone wants a signed book, they go, oh, you got the President's letter. Like, oh, this is real. And so I was like, not stupid. I wrote them back and said, hey, I want to do research on presidents. Can I come see what your life is like? And they had left the White House. So I'm like, can I come see you after the White House? And both of them said, yes, because what are they doing? I'm like, how bored are you that your life is so boring now that you're writing to me? And that helped because once you have that, then the Secret Service is like, oh, if the President trusts you, then I'll talk to you. And then if the Secret Service talks to you now, you can get the CIA and the FBI. And so it's just like, these people know each other, that it just starts from people just being genuinely nice.

Paul Scheer (38:42)

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Paul Scheer (40:29)

Reggie, I just sold my car online.

Jason Mantzoukas (40:31)

Let's go, grandpa.

Brad Meltzer (40:32)

Wait, you did?

Paul Scheer (40:34)

Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.

Advertisement Voice (40:42)

You don't say.

Paul Scheer (40:43)

Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.

Brad Meltzer (40:46)

Wow.

Paul Scheer (40:46)

Way to go. So, about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

Brad Meltzer (40:53)

Car selling made easy on Carvana.

Paul Scheer (40:57)

Pick a peas. Mantley, can you tell us something interesting about like, the witness protection program? Cause I think that that is something that, you know, we understand it in a grand scheme of things, right? We'll see it in a movie, like one battle after another. Or we'll see it in these things. But, like, which was such a good.

Brad Meltzer (41:14)

Movie I just saw, by the way, last week.

Paul Scheer (41:15)

Loved it. It's so good. I got to see Invisavision out here, which was really fun and. But I mean, it seems so kind of made up, I guess in my mind. I always thought mobsters. That's where mobsters go. But it's hard. How do you fit in in that world?

Jason Mantzoukas (41:28)

It's the college tour episode of the Sopranos.

Brad Meltzer (41:32)

Episode. That college store episode is what I firmly believe is what has informed the witness protection program for the last decade. Right. And I became obsessed with it because we're all obsessed with exactly that. Because you can't help but ask the question, what if it was me? And we all have this, like, weird fantasy in the back of our heads. Even if you love your life to be like, could I start it all over from nothing? Like, what does that mean? There's, like, something sexy and tantalizing. So I became obsessed with it. I will tell you. I've done the White House, the Supreme Court. I've done the secret tunnels below the Capitol. I've done the tunnels below Disney World. I don't think anything except for Disney, which was hard to get into. The Witness practicing program was one of the hardest places ever to research because people's lives are on the line, right? It's not just your dumb ass, like, oh, I want to go and screw around the White House. And so the thing that blew me away is just the pure history of it, right? Like, so they said to me, yes, the witness protection program is created for mobsters, right? We gotta get mobsters to turn on themselves, protect them, so we can go. And I'm like, great. I know that. I've seen the Tony Soprano episode. But then eventually, guess what happened? They arrested most of the mobsters. So now it's not like, crime was done and, like, Batman wins. Guess what happens. New criminals are like, I want that turf. So guess who started becoming the number one person in the witness protection program? It was gang members. They started putting gang members away. So all these gang members were now in the witness protection room. And then guess what happened? Those started shutting down. Like, they weren't. You know, they weren't the same. Now the number one group, according to my source, who's in the witness protection program, are accountants, because that's the frigging world we live in now. And I was just like, I am writing about that. Like, this is awesome to me. And just that idea that you can. You know. Because I'm like, can you really change someone's face by giving them a nose job? No, you cannot. Not like anyone. Like, when we were kids, we were like, oh, obviously, that's like quick sand. It totally works. But the witness protection room is awesome, and these guys are really good at what they do. The problem is all the people that are in it miss something about their lives, right? And if you miss one thing about your life, same thing as in one battle after another. Like, you can't. You can't hide away like that. That calling eventually gets to you. And that's what. That's what fucks everybody up. It's not the program. It's the person in there. Just Says I need to see blank. Maybe an old girlfriend or an old wife or someone wants to have sex with someone, but someone's got, you know, that's what screws it up.

Paul Scheer (44:01)

And you think you can. Tethers.

Jason Mantzoukas (44:03)

Yeah, those tethers that keep you connected to your old life. Those you. You know. And that's the thing is, like, because in our lifetime, I'm thinking of people like Henry Hill or Whitey Bulger or those kind of people. Did. Wait, was Whitey Bulger in witness protection, or was he just hiding?

Brad Meltzer (44:18)

Can I tell you, I've never told this before? Whitey Bulger. At one point, I got a tip that someone told me they knew where Whitey Bulger was, and I couldn't tell anyone. And I'm like. And I'm literally like, what am I supposed to do with this? And I will tell you, in the end, it was totally wrong, and it was completely not, but it was a really good source in a really good spot. And I was like, but, yeah, he wasn't in witness production. He just ran.

Jason Mantzoukas (44:38)

He was just hiding himself.

Brad Meltzer (44:40)

Yeah, he was good.

Jason Mantzoukas (44:43)

Yeah. Oh, boy, was he good. But that's, like, what I was gonna say is the world used to be so much bigger and more. You could disappear into it. And so much of the world now is online, on camera. We are living in a world which it would be very difficult, I feel like, to disappear because everybody is existing constantly, publicly, you know, that's exactly.

Brad Meltzer (45:06)

Well, now, I'm not going to ruin the plot of the Viper, but that's a key part of it, right? Like, witness protection back in the old days was just give someone a new driver's license and someone moved new to your neighborhood, and you wouldn't know much about them. But as the world changes, anytime someone moves to your neighbor, guess what we all do. We Google them. We check them out, and if there's nothing there, then we're like, oh, that's even more suspicious. So they have to now figure out how to. And they've gotten really good at giving you long historical backgrounds, because if there is nothing from back then, you're like, something's wrong. But all of us can go on Zillow and know what our neighbors paid for their house and what they bought and where they drive and how much they pay for their car and what their wife makes and. And we got it all. So good luck hiding in today's world. And the Viper, one of the key parts of it is, how do you do it really well? How do you disappear from the government today.

Paul Scheer (45:58)

Yeah. I mean, this. I love this. But I guess the question that I want to ask, though, is, you know, there's been a lot of interesting stuff going on in the comic book world. We've been talking about this for a while. Are you working on anything in the D.C. world right now?

Brad Meltzer (46:13)

Kind of. Yes.

Paul Scheer (46:15)

Kind of. All right.

Brad Meltzer (46:16)

Yes.

Paul Scheer (46:16)

All right.

Jason Mantzoukas (46:18)

But also, I feel like you're inside of the Marvel ecosystem as well, so that's.

Brad Meltzer (46:22)

I can say I am working on a new Marvel project.

Paul Scheer (46:26)

Okay, great. Okay. Okay. Ooh, Interesting. All right.

Brad Meltzer (46:29)

But I can tease that.

Jason Mantzoukas (46:31)

You can tease that. Can you tease what it is? Thwip. Thwip.

Brad Meltzer (46:37)

Wow. So subtle. I can't say no.

Jason Mantzoukas (46:41)

Or maybe snicked. Or maybe snict. Snicked.

Brad Meltzer (46:44)

But go. All the special effects. Yeah. Do all the sounds. Yeah. No, I mean, I'll say yes to one of those. Yes to one of those.

Paul Scheer (46:50)

Yes to one of those. I like this. I like. All right. This is exciting.

Brad Meltzer (46:53)

I just want to. By the way, I want to just live the rest of my life with people who understand that if I do snict or I do bamf or I.

Jason Mantzoukas (46:59)

Do what I was going to say, bam.

Brad Meltzer (47:00)

Just, like, how far we can take understanding and having a conversation with nothing but the sound effect.

Paul Scheer (47:07)

I mean, what a world to live in.

Brad Meltzer (47:10)

Because that's how I just find my friends. It's like going out and being, like I said to my son, I'm like, if you find someone, and this is, who knows, a couple of Legion of Superhero home planets, they're just gonna be your friend. You could just find them. And so we should just have little quizzes. I would just move through life with that and be very happy.

Paul Scheer (47:28)

I love this, Brad. Well, I'm very excited. We'll be watching anxiously to see what this will be. All right. You can get Viper wherever you get your books.

Brad Meltzer (47:37)

Wait, but I got.

Paul Scheer (47:37)

But I can't leave.

Brad Meltzer (47:38)

Wait, before I go, I gotta know, what do you read? I don't wanna know what comics you're reading. What are you reading?

Paul Scheer (47:41)

Oh, my gosh. You know, this is great. This is a good question right here. I have been very. I've been loving this. The mashups, right? Like the. Like, you know, the Deadpool and Batman has been fun. Like, I've been.

Brad Meltzer (47:54)

I read them. I just read them this week. There was some. I thought Kevin's. Smith's. There was. Did you read that story?

Paul Scheer (48:00)

I have that in my. Yeah, it's on my desk.

Brad Meltzer (48:03)

And did you read Tom Taylor's that one was great too.

Paul Scheer (48:06)

Yes.

Jason Mantzoukas (48:06)

Love Tom Taylor. I also loved the mashups that were happening previous, which was Godzilla versus Everybody. Oh yeah, there was a bunch of good Godzilla versus each of the Marvel teams.

Paul Scheer (48:18)

Each.

Jason Mantzoukas (48:18)

It was a very fun.

Paul Scheer (48:19)

I read on Predator Marvel 1 2, which is like you just get out. Which is great.

Jason Mantzoukas (48:23)

I'm really enjoying Fraction's new Batman run. Love that with Jorge Jimenez.

Brad Meltzer (48:28)

I love Jimenez. I love the way he does the. Like how he dials into stuff on the utility belt. Like, that's inspired. That's one of those ideas. Like, I always think the best continuity things are the things that you go, it's new, but it should have always been there. And I look at that, I'm like, that should have always been there.

Jason Mantzoukas (48:44)

Well, that's like the reveal that in Absolute Batman that the bat symbol is an ax.

Brad Meltzer (48:52)

That is.

Paul Scheer (48:52)

Oh yeah.

Jason Mantzoukas (48:54)

Taking that symbol off of his chest and it's an axe is incredible.

Brad Meltzer (48:58)

By the way, do you know how many nerds just got hard on that page when it happened? It was just like how many friends have told me, like, did you see when he took the. I'm like, I know. Like, that book is so good. They're killing that book.

Jason Mantzoukas (49:11)

I'm also reading. I will say there's been, I think a bunch of great stuff. Wait, what was I?

Brad Meltzer (49:17)

Ghost Machine. Come on, Ghost Machine. Have you guys been reading our stuff?

Jason Mantzoukas (49:20)

Ghost Machine.

Brad Meltzer (49:21)

Ghost Machine is so. I have a good. And I'm not saying it just. Cause I'm part of Ghost Machine. And I do have a book coming out with Jeff Johns next that'll be out later this year. But their stuff, Red Coat is so good. And Gary Frank's art obviously is so, so good. I mean, all the books. And I'm gonna start naming and feeling like I'm bad. I'm leaving people out. But every Ghost Machine book you should read too. They're great.

Jason Mantzoukas (49:42)

I love it.

Paul Scheer (49:43)

I love it. I was thinking that this is a great just time for. I mean, I'm going back to Batman for a second. I've also been a big fan of what Scott Snyder has been doing. And they have Absolute Joker I think is coming up right now or something like that.

Jason Mantzoukas (49:53)

I've really loved just because one of my favorite artists is Somni. So the Batman and Robin, Mark Wade, Chris Somni.

Brad Meltzer (50:02)

If you went to my kitchen right now, it's on my island because I want my son. I'm like, this art. I. You know, I said to Wade when I saw him, I'm like this art is so beautiful.

Jason Mantzoukas (50:11)

It's incredible.

Brad Meltzer (50:11)

Like when he does that Robin, that young Robin, it's so. I'm like, the fresh air. It is exactly. It reminds me of Michael Turner. When I first saw Turner, it just, it had movement without moving. And I was like, like, how is he doing?

Jason Mantzoukas (50:23)

It is incredible. Stop him.

Brad Meltzer (50:25)

Every flip, everything. It's just so good.

Jason Mantzoukas (50:28)

I can't recommend his book that he did with his wife, the all ages book called Jhna and the Impossible First.

Brad Meltzer (50:34)

Oh, I have that first. Yeah. That's a good book.

Jason Mantzoukas (50:36)

And that's another character whose movement is so beautifully drawn in that book. Incredible.

Paul Scheer (50:44)

You know, I've been really just trying to get my kids into stuff. So we've. I've been trying to read with them a little bit right now and just trying to find what they're connecting to. Which is interesting because like, I have been having a harder time than I thought I was gonna have with my kids.

Brad Meltzer (50:58)

How old are they?

Paul Scheer (50:59)

They are 9 and 11. They have just gotten in majorly into Marvel and so I'm like, I'm trying.

Jason Mantzoukas (51:07)

Can I. I have one? I have one. Just because it's Chris Somni, I'm gonna shout out Thor, the Mighty Avenger.

Paul Scheer (51:13)

Well, yeah, that's great.

Brad Meltzer (51:15)

Have they read High? Wait, have they read High Low by Judd Winner?

Paul Scheer (51:18)

No, these are good.

Brad Meltzer (51:20)

Give him High Low for sure. At nine years old. That's a gimme. They're gonna love Hilo. Hilo is a no brainer.

Jason Mantzoukas (51:25)

Not Marvel. But bone is a great.

Brad Meltzer (51:27)

Bone was good. I will again. I'm sure they're rating Dogman like that stuff.

Paul Scheer (51:33)

Yeah. Oh, dog man. I mean, Dogman is like non stop that.

Brad Meltzer (51:36)

Yeah, that Dogman and, and, and Captain Underpants. Like Pilkey. Dave is one of my dearest friends.

Paul Scheer (51:42)

Oh, Pilki is like a big. We just got like the boy underpants. Boy. It's not even Captain Underpants. Like, it's a boy in an underpants.

Brad Meltzer (51:49)

And Dave is a dear friend of mine. He's come to my house because. And my, like, he's literally my son is like, loves Dave Pilkey and is like, Dave Pilkey is the greatest writer of all time. And I'm like, you know I'm a writer, right? Like you understand what I do for. But he's. But for that age. That's the perfect jump on point.

Paul Scheer (52:07)

Yeah. Because this is. That's what they are devouring. And so I'm just trying to like let them find their little things and.

Brad Meltzer (52:12)

Oh, I Got one more.

Paul Scheer (52:14)

Oh, yeah, please.

Brad Meltzer (52:15)

Batman Brave and Bold. That's what my son read when he was younger. He couldn't read, like, now that he's like, once you hit 13, as far as I'm concerned, you're ready for anything. Because you and I, we all three of us read at 13. It was like, whether it was Dark Knight or Teen Titans or Avengers, like, we were all reading it, but at nine years old, my son read the Batman Brave and Bold series and just put them in. But it's beautiful and it's a fun book. And there's like team ups. There's like a Scooby Doo team up. He loved the team ups.

Paul Scheer (52:42)

Okay.

Brad Meltzer (52:43)

It wasn't just the rainbow. It was just. It was like the Scooby Doo team ups with Batman. And they. He loved them.

Paul Scheer (52:50)

All right, this is good. This is, this is what I'm. I'm doing. We are making our plans to go see Avatar to just watch the trailer for the Avengers. Like, that's why we're going to see Avatar 3, a movie we have not seen one or two of. I mean, I have. They have not. And there's like, they just want to see this trailer, which I'm also.

Brad Meltzer (53:05)

I'm thrilled that they're into it. Most nine year olds now are like, like, you know, my kids love all those movies and we'll go to them. But nine year olds now are like, I'm not watching the new ones because I gotta watch these other 25 ones.

Paul Scheer (53:16)

I know. Well, this is. Yeah, so it's been interesting. I've been enjoying watching them get into it. They met John Cena in costume as the Peacemaker, which truly was, by the.

Brad Meltzer (53:26)

Way, what a set to take him to. Oh, you took him to Comic Con.

Paul Scheer (53:28)

You saw I was at Comic Con and he just was wearing the costume. And man, oh, man, it was the best thing.

Brad Meltzer (53:33)

Yeah, you can't. I mean, that's. Yeah, you can't compare. Like. Like, you win. You win that. Like, I of course, took my children who are older to meet Eric from the Boys. And so, like, so, you know, Eric is a dear friend of mine, is a show. And so he. I told him, like, listen, man, you got to impress my kids. My boys, you know, they watch the show, they love it. So on last season of the Boys and Huey's mom in one of the scenes is like, she's literally reading one of my books. And I just sat there and I just sat there like this. I knew it was coming. He told me it was coming. And I was like, it's amazing how much bullshit as dads we will pull off to impress our kids. I don't care about anything. I never took my kids. You know, it's the White House or anything like that. You can pull off, but I pull. And I just sat there trying to be cool, and my kids both turned to me and I was like, okay, how's that, Dave Pilkey? How's that one?

Paul Scheer (54:23)

I love it. All right. This is great. Brad. Book Viper is out now, and I'm sure by the time this is out, it's gonna be another bestseller. This is what you do. You just rack them up.

Jason Mantzoukas (54:33)

Paul, I'm looking at my Cal and it's telling me that the book is already out and is already a huge bestseller.

Paul Scheer (54:39)

That's what I'm saying. This was great. I'm excited about the secret project and always great to talk to you. We'll talk to you soon.

Brad Meltzer (54:45)

You got it, brothers.

Paul Scheer (54:46)

Thank you, Brad. I love him. He's the best. And if you want to buy his brand new book, the Viper, just click on the link in the show notes to this episode. Now, it is almost the end of the show, which means it is finally time to announce our next movie. Next week, we'll be saying goodbye to Monkeybone and returning to no place like home. That's right. We are watching 1985's Return to Oz. This was Disney's sort of sequel to the wizard of Oz that was based on the book, not the original movie. So, yeah, a tricky sequel indeed. It stars Firuza Balk as Dorothy in her feature film debut. And IMDb describes the plot as Dorothy, saved from a psychiatric experiment by a mysterious girl, is somehow called Back to Oz when a vain witch and the gnome king destroy everything that makes the magical land beautiful. Yikes. Rotten Tomatoes gives this film a 59 score on the Tomatometer. And Joel Baltake from the Philadelphia Daily News wrote, Return to Oz is very much a great film. An adventure ahead of its time. I doubt it will be appreciated now. It's the kind of movie whose greatness will be discovered in 10 years. Well, guess what, Joel? You're wrong. Listen to the trailer. Now fly away with Dorothy and her wonderful new friends, the Gump. Half moose, half flying sofa, a talking chicken.

Brad Meltzer (56:00)

Where are we anyway?

Paul Scheer (56:01)

Jack and TikTok, the mechanical soldier to save the kingdom of Oz from the evil princes and the king with a body of rock in a magical new movie, Return to Oz. You can stream Return to Oz on Disney plus or you can rent it on Apple tv, Amazon Prime Video or Fandango at home. And as you know, I am always gonna shout out the digital media services offered to you by your local public library like Hoopla and Canopy and Libby. Even though Return to Oz is not on these services, they are still great resources to find movies, tv, music, audiobooks, ebooks and comics for free. That is it for Last Looks. If you listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, rate and review us, it makes a difference. Leave a comment for us and if you're following us, make sure you have automatic downloads turned on. It helps the show and we appreciate it. You can visit us on social media at hdtgm. And a big thank you to our producer Scott Sonny, Molly Reynolds, our engineer Casey Holford, our Social Media manager Zoe Applebaum and of course we'll forever be grateful to the one and only Avril Halley. If you have not seen it yet, there's a beautiful write up of her. A beautiful celebration of her life. We posted it in the Discord. We also have it on the how did this Get Made Instagram page. We will see you next week when we travel down the decaying remains of the Yellow Brick road as we return to Oz. When it's this cold, curl up with a snack that's cozy and delicious like my Mochi ice cream. My Mochi is scoops of premium ice cream wrapped in soft dough with delicious flavors like strawberry and mango. It's creamy on the inside and chewy on the outside and only 70 calories. A piece of Grab a warm blanket and snuggle up with a purple box of my Mochi ice cream today. It's the perfect wintertime treat.

Brad Meltzer (57:48)

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