Mindhunters

Summary

How Did This Get Made? — “Mindhunters” (April 10, 2026)
Podcast Hosts: Paul Scheer, June Diane Raphael, Jason Mantzoukas
Film Discussed: Mindhunters (2005, dir. Renny Harlin)

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Episode Overview

This episode of “How Did This Get Made?” takes aim at the 2005 thriller Mindhunters, directed by Renny Harlin, starring Val Kilmer, LL Cool J, Christian Slater, and Johnny Lee Miller. Paul, June, and Jason break down the movie’s ludicrous conceit: FBI profiler trainees sent to a remote island for a final simulation only to find a real killer is picking them off with outlandish, trap-laden murders. The hosts roast everything from nonsensical plot mechanics to character decisions, and compare “Mindhunters” to other genre fare like “The Thing,” “Silence of the Lambs,” and “Law Abiding Citizen.” Special attention is given to the absence of actual profiling, bizarre set pieces, and wasted potential of the star-studded cast.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Baffling Plot, Immediate Frustration

• 01:59 Paul summarizes the premise: FBI hopefuls tested by Val Kilmer’s unorthodox “simulations” on an island, only for real murders to happen.
• 03:18 Paul: “This is a movie that infuriates me on so many levels because…you have to be like, how did this all come together?”
• Hosts point out the movie never makes good on early “creepy moments” or tension — especially calling out the meaningless cold open.
• 04:22 June: “Once you start pulling at the threads this thing, this falls apart.”

2. The Simulation Logic — or Lack Thereof

• Extended bit about the absurd cost and detail of the FBI’s mock crime scenes.
• 07:02 June: “The escape room that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris have to go through must have cost millions of dollars.”
• Production details (flies, sound effects, cake) called out as both immersive and ridiculous.
• The hosts laugh at “FBI tax dollars” being blown on this extravaganza.

3. Profiler Logic vs. Action Hero Tactics

• 08:24 Jason: “To be an FBI profiler... it’s not about tactics... we’re not clearing rooms. That’s not our area.”
• 10:26 June: "Looking for one of them to be a SWAT team. Like, I don't think that any of these skills transfer to profiler."
• Drills down on the miscasting of “profilers” as action movie heroes rather than psychological experts. The “best of the best” act more like panicked teens in a horror movie than trained agents.

4. The Team’s Absolute Incompetence

• The hosts repeatedly note that the characters never use their profiling skills (or any real logic).
  • They “constantly just point guns at each other”—zero teamwork, zero deduction.
• 11:27 Paul: “These are the dumbest motherfuckers that never use any bit of information.”
• The pointlessness of the “escape room” clues and clock/killer motif is lampooned.
• 12:44 June: “Somebody is like, ignore the numbers. The numbers don’t matter. Let’s find the trap. And I’m like, the numbers definitely matter.”

5. LL Cool J’s Role and Legendary Monologue

• Extended riff on LL Cool J’s secret-identity character and his “profiling” scene.
• 14:51 LL Cool J (quoted): “What you say about me doesn’t tell you about me. It tells me about you… You take charge of your team because you never had a leader in your own life….”
• Mocked for being more cop show cliche than psychological depth.

6. Killer Reveal and Senseless Final Showdown

• 24:23 Jason: “One of the reasons [Sarah] is not recommended to be a profiler is because she panics. Now that’s going to come back to us later, but… who cares? Your job is mostly in an office computer, panic away.”
• Debates over Johnny Lee Miller’s backstory, killer motivation, and the utterly nonsensical “twist.”
• 27:29 June observes that Johnny Lee Miller’s accent changes at the end: “His character is American. And then when it is revealed, he is Southern.”

7. “Escape Room” Logic and Bad Death Scenes

• 29:10 – 32:15: The iconic Christian Slater death via “birthday party helium canister” of liquid nitrogen is mercilessly skewered.
  • 30:25 Paul: “The movie also posits the idea that if it starts at your ankles, it would freeze your body up to your head in seconds. In seconds. And crack you like a doll.”
• The cast wonders why nobody tries to intervene or just “step out of the way.”

8. Plot Holes, Unused Setups, and Traps for Traps’ Sake

• The team points out myriad red herrings and abandoned threads (the Navy, island history, hyper-specific but pointless traps).
• 38:28 Jason: “When the island is brought up in the Outer Banks… that doesn't even fold [into the plot].”
• The movie introduces information that goes nowhere.

9. Production Dissection and Behind-the-Scenes Thoughts

• Jokes about the film’s probable line producer (“It was because this is a place, a fake village... used by the Dutch government” - 75:14) and endless production design.
• Wishful thinking about story improvements, e.g., “what if the Navy was in on the traps?” or if the mystery actually involved profiling.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• 04:22 June: “Once you start pulling at the threads this thing, this falls apart.”
• 07:32 Paul: “And the cake is real. I mean, ’cause Val Kilmer does, as he’s chewing them out, is eating a piece of cake that was left on the table…”
• 10:30 Paul: “In a movie where the main idea is there is a killer amongst them and they have to profile each other. This movie fails at that.”
• 15:02 LL Cool J (as quoted): “I could say I know you’re sleeping with one of the guys in this room… You don’t belong here.”
• 24:48 June: “She can be in the office trying to crack the numbers code… [But] everybody does guns all the time.”
• 32:15 Jason: “There was a part of me watching this, because so many of them are witnessing the traps… There was a part of me that's like, oh my gosh. That's the horror of this movie. That's the scariest part.”
• 54:26 Paul: “How did he get the machine to be wrong? Cause he put blood under her finger.”

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Key Timestamps

• 01:59 – Paul summarizes the Mindhunters premise
• 04:22 – Immediate takedown: “Pull the threads, it all falls apart”
• 10:30 – “They never use any bit of information”
• 15:02 – LL Cool J’s infamous “profiling” rant
• 24:23 – “She panics… who cares if your job is in an office?”
• 27:29 – Johnny Lee Miller’s shift in accent
• 29:10–32:15 – Christian Slater’s ridiculous freezer death
• 38:28 – “What was the island mysticism for?”
• 43:42 – Theme missed: “The test was to get you used to not winning”
• 54:26 – “How did he get the machine to be wrong?”
• 67:16 – Second Opinion reading: “Gotta say, I outright love this film”

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Listener Second Opinions (67:16)

Two vintage reviews praised the film for its “clever” kills and LL Cool J’s role, oblivious to the hosts’ issues. Paul’s dramatic readings are a highlight.

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Final Thoughts

• The cast is mystified by the total lack of genuine profiling, teamwork, or logic. The movie is compared unfavorably to genre peers and is deemed “not worth it.”
• 79:10 June: “Not worth it…Not, not really worth it at all.”
• Jason and June reminisce about the “boxy Volvos” in the opening, lamenting the missed opportunities as the film derails.
• Paul drops trivia: Gerard Butler was to star; the set was a Dutch fake village; alternate endings exist.

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Episode Summary — TL;DR

Mindhunters is roasted as a prime example of misused genre tropes: a potentially fun “killer among us” premise wasted with flat characters, illogical plot turns, and zero actual profiling. Lapses in tension, dropped threads, and failure to use the movie’s concept are endlessly mocked. Despite a promising cast and director, the film’s crimes are cardinal: it’s neither suspenseful nor clever, and it reduces a team of supposed experts to squabbling, foolish horror movie cliches. June, Jason, and Paul’s comedic evisceration is as sharp as ever—making this episode a full “How Did This Get Made?” delight, even if the movie is a waste.

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Best for Listeners Who:

• Love hilarious, in-depth group takedowns of spectacularly bad movies
• Enjoy behind-the-scenes banter about film production, casting choices, and narrative logic
• Appreciate comedic improvisation and genuine exasperation from movie-loving comedians

Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

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[June Diane Raphael]

I think they're doing it to make us afraid.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, then it worked.

[Paul Scheer]

Something ancient is feeding off of their suffering and it won't stop. Survival will demand impossible choices from season four. Premieres April 19th on MGM.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What would you do if your online store converted 36% more shoppers? You could take 36% more vacation.

[Paul Scheer]

Another pina colada?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, please.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Open a new retail location with 36% more square feet.

[Paul Scheer]

Fantastic.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hire 36% more help.

[June Diane Raphael]

You're hired and you're hired.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Shopify has the world's best converting checkout up to 36% better than other e commerce platforms. What you do with those extra sales is up to you. Switch to Shopify [e-mail] setup and get a $1 trial. Shopify.com setup what is the movie?

[Paul Scheer]

Where does it stream? What is the movie? Where does it stream? We saw Mindhunters, so you know what that means.

[June Diane Raphael]

Now it's time for how to discover. We're gonna have a good time celebrating

[Paul Scheer]

failure, not just be a hater. Cause you know, you wonder, how did this campaign.

[June Diane Raphael]

Let's wallow in the mediocrity of subpar art. Perhaps we'll find the answer to the question, how did this get made?

[Paul Scheer]

Hello, people of Earth, and welcome to how did this get Made? I'm your host, Paul Scheer, and today we are Talking about the 2005 Renny Harlan directed action film Mindhunters. Now, in case you didn't watch, this is what you need to know. There is this FBI instructor, played by Val Kilmer, who's evaluating new recruits to join a serial killer profiler team. And here's the thing. Val Kilmer's methods, a little unorthodox, often includes creating very realistic simulations of murder scenes using sets and props and even actors. And for the final test, the group is brought to a remote island for a simulation training. However, once they are there, they realize that they are being hunted by a serial killer who might be someone that they actually know. Could it be LL Cool J? A last minute addition to the team who was sent along to just observe? We will soon find out. But let's not get into any of that before we introduce my co host, Please welcome June Diane Rayfield and Jason Mantzoukas. How are you both?

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow. I mean, it does. I'm worried. Is this podcast episode a test? Is this a testimulation or is it a trap?

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, this is what time is it?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is what I need to know.

[June Diane Raphael]

More clocks, please.

[Paul Scheer]

This is a movie that infuriates me on so many levels because very much like law abiding citizen June, which you were not present for a movie where there's a lot of traps and a lot of things and you have to be like, how did this all come together? I'm gonna put some of that on the side and just focus on the opening which you see this man, incredible, approaching a car in the middle of winter and his hand touches, you know, the hood and we see like a masked glove, like by the woman's face, looking as if like, uh, oh, this is a bad guy. It's a bad guy. And it's just Christian Slater. And we're like, okay, well that's gonna pay off. Like that creepy moment should definitely pay off. It doesn't. But now I'm gonna put that on the side and go, now we're just in the real world. I wanna make sure I'm clear on this with you both. We're in the real world. We are interviewing real people. Cause we're on the road, we're in the middle of the forest and we believe that we're in the world.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, yeah, that's what the M.O. here's really like. Once you start pulling at the threads this thing, this falls apart.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

God, so quickly.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because, you know, the entire cold open of the movie is this very high stakes, high tension thriller kind of beginning

[Paul Scheer]

where the end of Silence of the Lambs, like that kind of end or

[June Diane Raphael]

something like that, you know, like one of these kinds of, of we're going to find the serial killer. And then they find the house, they go in, they find they can hear the girls, the kidnapped girls. They, they, they're there, blah, blah, blah. They do all of it all the way through both of them being killed. Christian Slater and his partner Katherine Morris, they are the only two people who they are. They don't wait for backup. They go barging right in. And boy, oh, boy, do they get killed.

[Paul Scheer]

They get killed in such a crazy way. Because also, I will say, the way it's shot, I was writing down all these jokes like, oh, well, this is a haunted house. It looks like a haunted house. It looks like something that I've paid $40 to walk through and have people jump out at me. But I also was like, what am I seeing? I can't see anything. Like, the camera angle was obscuring enough stuff. I was like, is that person. Did he shoot himself in the head? Are those girls like dummies or are they real? I couldn't quite. And I was getting irritated only to reveal it was all set.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was all. Yeah. And, God, so many questions. It's very hard in a movie like this because you have to hang on to just what are the truths that you know? And, like, what are. What. What is. What can I hold on to to orient myself and to come back to Over.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

One of the things that I feel like was. Was important was the amount of flies around a serial killer's, you know, area serial killers work. Lots of flies.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes. Oh, and not just the. The flies, but the sound of the flies.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sound of the flies. That was very important.

[Paul Scheer]

I would have loved to have seen a moment, because we do see Val Kilmer breaking down the scene. Once it's revealed, it's all set. Dealing with, like, the fly wrangler. You know, like, guys, it was good. It was too much on the flies. We get a few.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So roughly. Now, I understand we will get to the island in which the Navy uses it for simulation purposes. All sorts of, like, opposite.

[Paul Scheer]

We're talking about Onega.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's right. That's fine. That's an island. But this is a place, I guess, outside of Virginia, is in Virginia somewhere where it felt like, open.

[Paul Scheer]

It felt like it was on a Hollywood set. Like. And I say that not like, you know, like the way that they had control of the lighting and everything. It.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I guess you just was wondering, like, roughly how much does that cost?

[June Diane Raphael]

It's gotta be a staggering amount just to produce. The escape room that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris have to go through must have cost millions of dollars.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's what I'm wondering. Millions of dollars.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because I want to just go back when you're talking about the flies and how important it is that the flies are buzzing around the corpses and the dead people. You see someone go in and turn off the tape player that is playing the flies.

[Paul Scheer]

Sound effect.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

So it all falls apart.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, it's so immersive.

[Paul Scheer]

And the cake is real. I mean. Cause Val Kilmer does, as he's chewing them out, is eating a piece of cake that was left on the table where this serial killer.

[June Diane Raphael]

I guarantee that was an improv from Val.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, absolutely. But, like, that's, you know, we're taxpaying citizens. Like, that's. FBI is funded by, like, that's millions of dollars.

[June Diane Raphael]

But now here, that's like sending Cash Patel to the Olympics.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Now what are we doing?

[Paul Scheer]

But here's the thing. I want to go back one step on I. Because I guess I just have to leave out the fact that they were in the middle of the wilderness interviewing subjects. It's like, so in this world, they had to find this house. Like, that's part of the mission.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, so, okay, I'll buy that. But they are training to be profilers, which is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I know where you're going with this, Paul. It's the same question I had.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, okay, go for it. Tell me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, yeah, okay, so. So to be an FBI profiler, and I don't know that much about this, but I'll speak on it anyway. It seems like you have to be doing some deep psychological work. Lots of research, lots of, like, health. How does the human mind work? You were way past Psych 101. We're really, you know, we're on message boards about young white men who are categorically usually serial killers. We are. We are doing that type of work. We are not doing the tactical sort

[June Diane Raphael]

of knocking on doors. They're not. They're not knocking on doors.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, we're. We're not clearing rooms. That's not our area.

[Paul Scheer]

And it seemed to be that Val Kilmer's biggest issue was with their tactical prowess.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Not their.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not their ability to profile.

[June Diane Raphael]

Special Agent Moore, when is the situation secure?

[Paul Scheer]

On the drive home.

[June Diane Raphael]

On the drive home? That's right.

[Paul Scheer]

On the drive home. Sir, we did. Shut up.

[June Diane Raphael]

Cigarettes on the table. More at the door. Different brands.

[Paul Scheer]

Two cars out front.

[June Diane Raphael]

Four place settings, not three.

[Paul Scheer]

All should have alerted you to the possibility that there might be another suspect. I think. Sorry, what? What did you say? I think you enjoy watching us fail, sir. Better in here than out there.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, this really happened. The unsub was apprehended in under two

[Paul Scheer]

minutes without a shot fired.

[June Diane Raphael]

Took you guys seven minutes, and you killed your partner.

[Paul Scheer]

Here's the thing. What they failed to do was not profile, but just not take in all the information like, oh, didn't you see there's.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It seems like a skill set.

[June Diane Raphael]

100%.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Four plates on the table.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. That's all like a. Like a homicide department. Just like cops clearing rooms, going through,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

looking for one of them to be a SWAT team. Like, I don't think that any of these skills transfer to profiler.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, by the way, I'm gonna say this.

[June Diane Raphael]

They're all bad.

[Paul Scheer]

In a movie where the main idea is there is a killer amongst them and they have to profile each other. This movie fails at that. These are the dumbest motherfuckers that never use any bit of information. And even in the big end reveal, which we'll get to eventually, but it's not even like, oh, I profiled him. She basically just marked him with paint.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, it's really similar to. It's like a horror movie that's happening. It's like a group of teenagers happen into a house full of traps, right? Like, they are. They are acting with the same kind of chaotic. We don't know what to do that teenagers would. But they are meant to be the best of the best. And they. They don't work together, they don't use their brains, they don't use their skill sets to the best of their abilities. They are constantly just. It's seen after scene where they're just pointing guns at each other, being like, it's you, it's you, it's you. I know it's you.

[Paul Scheer]

It's like, it's like the movie the Thing. Like the thing where it's like people who are not supposed to be profiles are smarter at figuring out who is an alien and who is not. And these are just normal people. And here's the other thing. They don't have a different skill set. They all are equal, which is another odd thing. So this is a team where everyone is on an equal footing. Like, no one's like, oh, you're the, you know, you're the ballistics person, you're the this person.

[June Diane Raphael]

They are all theoretical, but they also are like, they. Each trap seems to be so. So. So in the story of the movie, the. The killer is picking everybody off one by one or sometimes in pairs or whatever. And there's a watch that appears or a clock that appears with the time of the next murder. So everybody knows, okay. In between now and then, we have to figure out what's going on. But the timelines are like two hours. And the killer somehow has set up traps inclusive of draining an entire body. Of all of its blood and using all of that blood to write numbers all over the walls that are some sort of code.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, at that point, they've been asleep for five hours when they drink the bad coffee. So he has five hours to set up a day's worth of he or she. Oh, he or she.

[June Diane Raphael]

Sorry.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Somebody is like, ignore the numbers. The numbers don't matter. Let's find the trap. And I'm like, the numbers definitely matter.

[Paul Scheer]

They all work together. They never, like, you figure out this, and I'll figure out that. They are all, like, just. It's like. It's the worst people in Escape Room Paul.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're so. They get so angry at. At each other for always trying to. Trying to profile.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're like, enough of that. Let's find the killer. Like, enough of the numbers. Enough of the letters. Now there's letters. Those letters. Those numbers. It's like, wait.

[June Diane Raphael]

It would have made more sense if the. If the thing had happened where it was like, three profilers and three, like, soldiers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Tactical.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, you know, like three, because. And the idea was, oftentimes you guys are paired together in the field. Use your complimentary skill sets to solve problems.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Brains are these problems. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

They all brought guns. And here's the other thing that really cracked me up again, just to drive home how much this movie is. Does not even embrace the premise of the film, which is LL Cool J is, like, at the very last minute, brought on to join the team to observe. Because, you know, people are like, to your point, June, where. Why is Val Kilmer spending all this money? Something's up.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is that how he joins in the beginning?

[Paul Scheer]

I thought he said he was joining to observe.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's an investigator with the Department of Justice. He said.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank you, Jason.

[June Diane Raphael]

First he says he's introduced as a police detective who just wants to tag along and see how they work, which makes a little bit of sense, kind of what we're talking about.

[Paul Scheer]

Sure.

[June Diane Raphael]

And then it's Then the. The crew becomes suspicious of him because they find maps and information that he has about the island that they're on. And then he comes clean and says, listen, I'm not who I said I was. I'm here investigating Val Kilmer. The Department of Justice thinks he has too much power, basically.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, here's what I will say. I don't remember if this is him, because I didn't write down who wrote this, but I am going to bet that it was LL Cool J when he goes, you all think you're profilers I'll profile you right now.

[June Diane Raphael]

What you say about me doesn't tell you about me. It tells me about you. Now, I could say your little gambling means you have an addictive personality. I could say, I know you're sleeping

[Paul Scheer]

with one of the guys in this room.

[June Diane Raphael]

I could say, you take charge of your team because you never had a leader in your own life. And you. When push comes to shove, you crack under pressure. Your partners can't depend on you. You don't belong here.

[Paul Scheer]

And when he's profiling one of the women in the unit, right? This is, I believe, Patricia Velasquez. That's the actress's name. He goes. And you're sleeping with one of the guys. Like, well, that's not a. That's not a profiler thing. Because at one point he's like, you have daddy issues. You do this, you're sleeping with one of the guys. It's not like it's. It's more detective work. It's not like it's not psychologically. That's not what she's made of. It's just like, oh, yeah, you are fucking somebody here. That's okay. And that's fine. It's a fine thing. But you can't sell that next to. You have daddy issues. You've always felt left behind.

[June Diane Raphael]

September 19th. Yeah, it's like, he can't. It's not. That's not what we're doing here. But that's like. Those are the. Kind of. Like, this movie is making all the shortcuts and broad strokes. It's not interested in any of these people going deeper and actually trying to crack the case. Which was disappointing because that really stays at the same level the whole time. Everybody is just in active panic throughout. And they never.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's my question. Why. I couldn't understand why they wouldn't assume that Val Kilmer was the killer or that same.

[June Diane Raphael]

They do at one point.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

At one point. But then they let go of that so quickly, and it's like, well, only

[June Diane Raphael]

because they find his body.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well at the end. But so many people die before then. And I'm like, why? Why are you assuming it's also.

[Paul Scheer]

Val Kilmer clearly did not stay for a Life Model mold, because they really gotta tell you, no, no, no, that's him. Even though he doesn't really look the way that we think.

[June Diane Raphael]

And there's a lot the movie really wants to pull from all of those, you know, seven. And those grisly kind of. And so. And they're even trying to make this idea of like, oh, the puppet master is the serial killer. And then some of the bodies are strung up like marionettes and stuff, like almost like a puppet master would. But most everybody else just dies in a trap of some sort in a stateroom type.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Can I ask.

[Paul Scheer]

Indiana Jones style trap. Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Can I ask a question?

[June Diane Raphael]

So we're just here asking questions.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So they are brought to this island by Val Kilmer to find an actual serial killer who.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What?

[Paul Scheer]

He was setting up a final. This is the final.

[June Diane Raphael]

Their final exam. And it's like another one of this. The fake setups.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I know it's fake, but in the world of the fake setup.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Note that they are finding a serial killer and that that more next morning. And Val Kilmer says he's going to strike tomorrow. You got to find the crime scene. I was waiting for that serial killer, that fake story to somehow fold in to our real story.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wouldn't that be great?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, because you would think that Val Kilmer, who has left the island, or we assume he has left the island, has started to set up these traps

[Jason Mantzoukas]

because where are those traps?

[Paul Scheer]

And I think the first body is. Yes, I agree, his trap. But then we also don't know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, oh, I see what you're saying. The first body that.

[June Diane Raphael]

The first body that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I have question about that.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, who's that body?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So. Well, well, that's a mannequin.

[June Diane Raphael]

I thought that was.

[Paul Scheer]

That is. Okay, got it. Okay. I don't know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's a mannequin.

[Paul Scheer]

Val Kilmer's body also to me looks like a mannequin.

[June Diane Raphael]

You did also text me, who is that body? What's her number? What's her. What's her deal? Who is that body?

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, look, I'm always. I very much like Corey Feldman. I want to help bring young girls to Hollywood and just teach them the rose.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So. But when they see that they. There's a tape player that goes off. Christian Slater, because of course he's the leader of the group, goes over, turns off the. Turns off the tape. And then a domino setup gets started and all the dominoes start to fall and things are happening and they stop and stare.

[June Diane Raphael]

No one, no one, no one activates.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Why wouldn't they stop it?

[Paul Scheer]

They know that the entire. This is before they even understand that there's serial killer in their midst. They understand that clearly it's set up

[Jason Mantzoukas]

by the world of the simulation. Why wouldn't they stop?

[June Diane Raphael]

They're right. Even if they were doing the simulate Even if this was just pure, like low, no stakes, simulation, you know, no, no physical stakes, you know, they don't think they're going to be hurt or anything like that. They're doing an absolute dogshit job of assessing this situation, of clearing the rooms, of looking for traps.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I guess their profile.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why would they know they blow up the escape boat just by tripping a trip wire that was very visible? You know, they are supposed to be the best of the best and they're in fact the worst of the worst. And I would believe that these are the FBI profilers under Cash Patel. A thousand versus versus in the 2000s.

[Paul Scheer]

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[June Diane Raphael]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird.

[Paul Scheer]

What is this, your first date?

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

[June Diane Raphael]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Paul Scheer]

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[June Diane Raphael]

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[Paul Scheer]

Now I will say this, that I don't trust anything that Christian Slater does because he. Well, first of all, he got some sweet CS butt cheeks out there. We got to see some palate cheeks.

[June Diane Raphael]

We got to see that Slater tush.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, a little Slater tush. But he proceeds to have sex in. You couldn't make a more open area and resonant.

[June Diane Raphael]

It must have been so loud to have sex in like the communal shower. Open stone communal showers of the. Everybody must have heard.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, this is also a island that is used for military training. No one's ever lived there. It's just for military exercises. But yet when one of the guys is in a bed, there's all these like posters of naked women up on the wall as if it was someone's bunk.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Or like he decorated it and then I was like.

[Paul Scheer]

Or did he decorate it because he was.

[June Diane Raphael]

Or did Val Kilmer decorate? Did Val Kilmer set the scene? Like how many people pre production are going to the island to set it up? And by set it up, I mean create a ultra realistic serial killer murder sites. You know what I mean?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We know the Navy had just been there because they left the sitting ducks. You know, again, I was waiting for the Navy to somehow get folded back in and, and, and for them to find something that, that was going to be important from the Navy.

[Paul Scheer]

No, that never happened.

[June Diane Raphael]

Nothing, nothing important ever happened. And, and, and you know, spoiler alert for the movie, the killer is revealed to be Johnny Lee Miller for reasons that I still am unclear on.

[Paul Scheer]

Totally confused. Well, I, I guess the question also is like there seems to be like obviously this final. There's a competition element to it, right? Because apparently according to Clifton Collins, Val Kilmer is like writing his recommendations on his desk and he happened to walk into like his teacher's office and read the, like, read the Rex and know that like that Sarah is not being upgraded. So there's a little bit of competition there.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Can I say something about Sarah being upgraded though, Paul? Yeah, her. The, one of the reasons she is not recommended to be a profiler is because she panics. Now that's going to come back to us later on. She panics. But again, I have to ask, who

[June Diane Raphael]

cares if your job is mostly in an office Computer, panic away. Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, we don't need to medicate for that. Just continue to panic.

[June Diane Raphael]

And you don't have. And. Or don't. She doesn't have to. In order to fulfill the duties of a. Of a profiler. She, I don't think, needs to be in the field, you know, doing gunplay. She can be in the office trying to crack the numbers code. That's the. I think the point of having the team is like, oh, the good with guns guy goes and does that. The people that are good at puzzles get to do puzzles, and that's a cohesive unit. Nope, nope, nope. Everybody does guns all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

But if you are to treat the movie as truth, it is revealed that Johnny Lee Miller, the whole reason why he has done this is, yes, he is a serial killer who has infiltrated the FBI's serial killer profiling program to figure out who the most worthy person is for him to challenge, and that is her. Like, so he's like, oh, wouldn't it be the best coup for me? Like, I don't want to just. I don't want to just deal with it. I want to find the best of the best. So this has been for him a long time.

[June Diane Raphael]

Can you say that? Because that's interesting. Because I could not for the life of me figure out what the Genesis deal was.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, why Something like that. But are you saying, Paul, that he. He wanted sort of the most challenging prey?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, so here's what's so crazy about him that even the fact that he penetrated the FBI. Now, both of his parents were murdered in front of him. Or. Or it seems both. Well, we know they were murdered by him later, but. But when we meet him, it seems that they were just murdered. That alone to me, at 10 years old. That alone to me, it's like, I kind of want the FBI flagging that on some level.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. You would think at a certain point someone would be able to say, like, hey, why was his parents murdered? Let's just look into that a little bit more. But, I mean, maybe he's very, very good. I don't know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what I wish for? I wish that he had been the one who killed her little sister.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, they're going to have something. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And it's. And it's. And he put Clifton Collins Jr. In the wheelchair and he. What if he had connections to everybody that they didn't know about? What? Or like, the idea that they float for LL Cool J's character is that, oh, are you doing this as revenge because you didn't pass the exam. Like, you're trying to get back. Like, did you flunk out? The FBI didn't want you. Like, I couldn't figure out Johnny Lee Miller's. You know, it's just not enough time is given to it at the end. Like, what.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What?

[June Diane Raphael]

His also change in accent does change accent.

[Paul Scheer]

I was. I. His accent was so slight that I was like, is this. I couldn't quite figure out if.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, I mean, it's strange because he is a British person.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

His. His character is American. And then when it is revealed, he is Southern.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

When he. When the final twist comes, he be. He starts to affect, like, a weird Southern drawl that wasn't there before. And I was like, I don't know what this is trying to tell me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There are notes of that Southern draw early on, but, boy, does it come.

[June Diane Raphael]

I thought it was a different voice. Like, I thought he was like, this is the real me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right? No, it was sort of there at one point, but it. It is. He's playing fast and loose with that accent. I was also sort of amazed early on. And maybe this is just a product of, like, movies used to feature, like, four white men on a team and no one blinked an eye. But there were so many of them and they all looked so similar to me. I genuinely couldn't keep track of them.

[June Diane Raphael]

Agreed. I was happy when some of them got killed at the beginning because I was like, I don't know that guy's deal well.

[Paul Scheer]

But I was upset that the first person who dies is Christian Slater, because I'm like, well, I understand who that is. But the guy like. But the guy who is like. Then there's a gentleman who is. That's Clifton Collins who is in a wheelchair. So I'm like, okay, that at least gives me another marker.

[June Diane Raphael]

And then Johnny Lee Miller's American, and I know who he is because I know him as an actor. But then there's another British guy who is the guy whose head just pops right off of his body. What happened when they all wake up from the coffee?

[Paul Scheer]

He looked like a robot. I thought it was going to be revealed that he was a Westworld robot because you saw strings in there that looked like Paul.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was something about Christian Slater's death. Why. So he's being sprayed with.

[June Diane Raphael]

Step out of the way.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Liquid nitrogen. Nitrous nitrogen.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Some sort of. It's a T2 situation.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Step out of the way, Jason.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, so step out of the way. It was as though he couldn't move. Which I did have a question about, like, is it paralyzing you?

[June Diane Raphael]

Immediately.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Immediately paralyzing you. And then my next question is, like, with the rest of the team. Did not move to also just take that container, take that blaster, turn it.

[June Diane Raphael]

Everybody watches. Everybody watches all the traps happen from

[Paul Scheer]

the beginning until they end. Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

They don't try and intercede in any traps execution. They just watches it, watch it as if they are trapped and they're not.

[Paul Scheer]

But here's the thing. That is one canister of liquid nitrogen that's shooting at his ankles. Now, yes. He could have easily just stepped back, stepped out of the way, thrown the

[Jason Mantzoukas]

top of his body down.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I don't even want to get into the fact that that is completely impossible. That would never happen. But the movie also posits the idea that if it starts at your ankles, it would freeze your body up to your head in seconds. In seconds. And crack you like a doll.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, he breaks like an icicle that drops onto the floor. He breaks in, like, so many pieces after being sprayed. Like, by. I mean, if you've not seen the movie, imagine like a birthday party helium canister is just blowing. It's not like in T2 where he falls into or whatever, a vat of nitrogen or whatever. This is a spray of nitrogen that freezes him. And he's able to talk. He's like, stay where you are. He's still giving commands. And I'm like, stop talking. Take a step to your right, baby.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Step to your right. Or someone just move that or turn it off, please. Now here's. Because, honestly, I have to say there was a part of me watching this, because so many of them are witnessing the traps and just watching the traps happen. There was a part of me that's like, oh, my gosh. That's the horror of this movie. That's. That's the scariest part.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, right. You couldn't even do anything.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Is that when confronted with someone in pain, someone suffering an event happening before your very eyes, like, people will freeze and watch and not intervene.

[Paul Scheer]

That's horrifying, June. We have seen that numerous times on Scare Tactics. The premise of Scare Tactics, the horror prank show, is like, they put people in these situations, and they often do as they are told or freeze.

[June Diane Raphael]

But I think the whole point of this program is at the level they're at, they would have already learned to push through that immediate freeze. They would have already learned the skill sets and tools to not just be observers to these tragedies, but to, in fact, either intercede or get to it before it happens. Well, the opening scene is that.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, the opening scene is saying, hey, guys, don't freeze. Be smarter. And yet they aren't. And I thought that his death was so bad in the sense that he didn't do anything. I was like, well, clearly he's the serial killer. Like, he has set up some sort of contraption to make it look like his body broke into glass. Now, I will say this. You know, I know that you both love interior design, and I would love to show you that if you like interior design, you can actually purchase a broken Christian Slater. And I think, Scott, can you pop that up there? This is. This is the body. It comes on a special mount. It's on an auction house right now.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, the legs are separate. You can. You can do the whole thing again. Yeah, you can get in there. Part of his face is peeling off. But again, that's a great centerpiece for a living room.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's the kind of thing that I feel like we should use our money to buy and then have it in the. How did this get made?

[Paul Scheer]

House I would love, because I think

[June Diane Raphael]

a lot of people don't know that we all live together now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I know.

[Paul Scheer]

And it's so nice.

[June Diane Raphael]

We all live together now in a content house, by the way. Kind of just about. How did this get made?

[Paul Scheer]

I. I have become obsessed. On Instagram, there is a wax museum that is auctioning off every one of their wax figures. And they're pretty conservative. Like, they're not. They're not expensive to a certain degree. Where it's like, all of a sudden, I'm like, can I get this Tom Cruise? Can I get this Conan o'? Brien? This Jay Leno? The Jay Leno one. The Jay Leno one was the one that I was so close to. Why.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why is the Jay Leno one the one you want?

[Paul Scheer]

Because I think anyone would love a little Jay Leno in the house.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wait, it's not little, though, is my guess.

[Paul Scheer]

No, he's a life size. Yeah, it's life size. Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because then you know what's going to happen. And June, this is for you. If you allow Paul to buy the wax figure of Jay Leno, he's then going to start saying, hey, I need an antique fire truck to go with the Jay Leno doll.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to get a lot of.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I really. Sometimes I think about it, like, if I wasn't in his life, what his living order. I mean, it would just be, you

[June Diane Raphael]

know, it was just. Yes. He would be living in a house of horrors.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, especially when you see, like, if you can get a Jay Leno for a thousand bucks, why not? Like, like that's, that's what life has opened without you.

[June Diane Raphael]

June. I feel like the 15 foot skeleton that comes out at Halloween is out year round and is perhaps inside the house.

[Paul Scheer]

We, well, we have seen many a time now, I will say, and I will take all the slings and arrows you want to throw at me, but that skeleton was, was brought to this home by one person.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's my idea. But, but I will say that that skeleton is very aesthetic and it has a point of view and it's very beautiful and there's. Our neighbors have to have one, you know, so it's. That's, that's a different thing. And I think that's a beautiful spook and a beautiful scare.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, agree.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I worry about with Paul is I

[Paul Scheer]

want a shirt that says a beautiful spook and it's a big skeleton over somebody's edge.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But, but what I really worry about with Paul and it's, it's honestly scary to think about is just what if you, if given no boundaries.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, what he would come up with, what items, what figurines, what stickers.

[Paul Scheer]

What is tricky for me, what kind

[Jason Mantzoukas]

of, I don't even, I can't even

[June Diane Raphael]

imagine memorabilia, the kinds of auctions that he would be registering for and what they would be selling.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think what's always hard for me is when Paul comes home with things framed because it's like, it's like, it's really hard because I'm like, well, God,

[Paul Scheer]

and I have not done this for a long time. Very long time. Yeah, I've been, I've been really good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But like, it's, it's really hard because it's like it's framed. And so when something gets framed, it feels like it's got to go.

[Paul Scheer]

I know exactly the piece that you're talking about. And you know, in retrospect. And in retrospect, those are the things I wouldn't get now. I mean, times change.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like the most chilling. So to you, June, the most chilling words out of Paul's mouth are, I'm having the art hangers come tomorrow without you knowing why or for what. To hang. To hang. What?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Listen, I think at this point, we've been together for so long, like, I don't fear that happening anymore, you know, but we definitely, we definitely had A transitional period.

[Paul Scheer]

There were moments. There were moments. Now, back to this film, my hunters.

[June Diane Raphael]

Can I ask you guys a question? Because like we've said, this is a. This is a Rennie Harlan movie who is like a real auteur of this schlocky era. And then, you know, like we said Val Kilmer, LL Cool J there, Johnny Lee Miller. There's recognizable names, there's recognized. It's like, it's got a vibe that it's clearly expensive, they clearly spent money. I've never heard of this movie.

[Paul Scheer]

Never.

[June Diane Raphael]

When I clicked it up, I was like, I don't recognize any of these images, any of this art. I don't know what this is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And you know what? I was so disappointed by when it started. And even being in that bar scene, I was like, this is right up my alley.

[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, I love.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is going to be fun.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is going to be so much fun. And I was so excited. And I love the idea of they're all trying to out profile each other. And like, I was just like, oh, finally something for me, something for the girls, you know? But then, boy, did it devolve.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, it really is. It's the kind of movie that structurally needs the team to come together, but they never do. So it's as if the movie never starts.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's just that people.

[June Diane Raphael]

People just start dying. Nobody ever knows why. Nobody ever. The. It also doesn't do that thing which some movies do, which is let us, the audience in on information that the main characters don't have, you know, so that we know the trouble they're in before they do. They don't let that happen. Like, it's pure discovery and chaos.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then it spreads. Where? You know, when the island is brought up in the Outer Banks. Croatian or Croato.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

whatever that was.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yep.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then first of all, what the fuck was. And that doesn't even cut. That doesn't even fold.

[Paul Scheer]

It was just.

[June Diane Raphael]

You would think it would be in. It would. It would be important information dump. And it's not.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It doesn't matter. Ultimately, it is not why he's. Yeah, it's not why he's doing this. He's doing this to find the perfect pre. It has nothing, no bearing on the rest of the plot. But again, when it's mentioned, I'm like, oh, okay, this is the movie that we're getting like revenge or figuring out a mystery of what happened on this island. Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

But you can't like give us. You can't give us busy work because if you're going to take a moment to explain an island in a. And a mysticism around it or a story. Like, we're like, well, that's important. It's not like life like, you know, it's like, well, every bit of information here is going to be building to a larger point. Which again, why set up Christian Slater as the creepy guy?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And then also you kill him in such a way that it's like, it would have to be insane for him to even have survived. Oh, I used a robot. I did this. So it's like it very.

[June Diane Raphael]

Or if he had just not been standing exactly where he was standing. That's the other thing is like these traps are. It's like the game Mousetrap. They are so random and. But require such specific situations to unfold perfectly to the second. That is just preposterous. Like, just people moving through the world would not fall into these rhythms and this exact setups.

[Paul Scheer]

But I guess the thing that I keep on coming back to is even like, where's the mystery? Like, kill people in a way where they're not definitely dead. When you get like three harpoons to the chest. Yeah, you're dead. So you start taking people off the table in a way where it's like, oh, I don't know. Because I thought at one point when Clifton Collins, like, crawls into the freezer room, by the way, they do collect Christian Slater's body and put it like in, like they, they morg it up. I'm like, at this point, do we need to collect all the pieces? Like, I feel like we should be solving this. Like, something's going on here. We don't have time to get the gurney to load up the gurney to bring it into the thing. It's like, it seems like he's gonna be frozen for a bit.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right? He was frozen. So that's.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why didn't Clifton Collins just stay in the free. Like, here's the other thing is once everybody's so suspect of each other and once people are really dying, everybody should just hide.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, my God, why did he get out of the freezer?

[June Diane Raphael]

Everybody just go hide on your own. Wait it out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, wait it out. But the thing that, the thing that actually really made me insane and I, I, I wanted to throw the remote at the very end when El Cool J and Sarah are there and there is a helicopter in sight, but they've just, you know, they made it out. And she says, when do you know the situation is cleared resolved.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, basically, like, don't party until you're out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When do you know the situation is cleared? And they both say to each other on the ride home.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, and yet. But they're not on the ride home yet.

[June Diane Raphael]

They're not on it.

[Paul Scheer]

One more twist.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, there's going to be great. If the chopper just blew up.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're not in there now. Was that intentional? To think, like, no, I didn't think so, Jason.

[June Diane Raphael]

I didn't think so. I don't think the movie's smart enough.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well. But I think that movie made me angry. I was like, how can dare you? You don't even need that helicopter to take off. Just put them in there somehow.

[Paul Scheer]

Yep. Right. The same day you're seeing the helicopter coming to the island. Just shoot that other scene too. Like the two of them leaving off.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, now, wait, so now you're just the line producer.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm just, I'm just trying to make.

[June Diane Raphael]

We've got the chopper for one day. We're gonna do in the morning. We're gonna. Because of southern exposure. We're gonna be looking.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

God. Paul just, just wanted to do the one liner for this movie.

[June Diane Raphael]

Are you giving us day out of dates for this?

[Paul Scheer]

I sometimes look, and this is the problem that I have now is like, not only am I looking for like that, I'm like, but why didn't they do. They could have done it. They had. They had it. Were they running over that day? Like, I, When I start to look at. When I look at it, as a line producer, I really. That's another level of movie watching. Like, I do think of that often. Like, well, how do they. How did they get over there? They must have.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why would they do that? And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What is this your first date?

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

[June Diane Raphael]

Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com. One of the things that I think could have been a theme for the movie that is not. And it is. It is actually. The theme of the movie is after the cold open when Christian Slater and Katherine Morris are downloading with Val Kilmer and he's like, basically, here's how you it up. This and that and this and that. You missed this clue. You missed that clue you took longer than anybody else. Blah, blah, blah. He's dressing them down. She's like, I don't understand how. What could we have done to save the girls, right? And he says, nothing.

[Paul Scheer]

Girls are already dead.

[June Diane Raphael]

They couldn't have been saved. They. This test was to get you used to not winning, right? And I was like, oh, whoa, wait a minute.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I know I struggle with that as well.

[Paul Scheer]

That's what this is about.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is about not winning the best.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, so. So there's something. And I. I think I rewounded and watched it twice because there was something very disturbing about and really unsettling about Val Kilmer's, like, worldview on crime. Because I think what he was saying is, hey, someone gets murdered, you find out. Just a regular old murder. You'll find out in 48 hours if you can get them. But if you can't, then it's done, Then it's done. You'll never find them.

[June Diane Raphael]

Them. It's very unlikely.

[Paul Scheer]

Put.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Put that over there. They're. They're never going to get. That's never getting solved. Which I was like, okay. And then he's like, but if it's a serial killer, his point of view almost seemed to be, you want them to actually kill someone because.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because then you can start building a profile.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Start building a profile, but they never, ever. And it almost seems like you want more and more people to die. So that. That.

[June Diane Raphael]

I think that's the kind of shit that LL Cool J is investigating, as he should. And.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, then that would also make Val Kilmer the best killer for this thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

He should be a serial killer.

[Paul Scheer]

That's the whole thing. Because what this movie devolves to is this moment the least exciting. I'm pricking my finger to get blood out. I was like, what is. I'm watching a montage of people, like, plink. Put a little blood in the thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

Terrible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Now, as a line producer, how quickly do you think they were able to shoot all that?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, you could bring that out really well. You could bring that really quick. You actually. Yeah, you bring it. You shoot that on another stage while they're doing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, they're setting up some skeleton turret. That's it. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Do you guys think on this island. Okay, this is an island, a remote island that is used as a training facility for the Navy. How did all these cats get there?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I feel like cats are on the island, right? Isn't that, like, a thing that Alcatraz has a bunch of cats, I think.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, does it? Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think. Yeah, I think there is.

[June Diane Raphael]

When they wake up in the morning and the cat is dead hung, and there's a badge stuck into it. I was like. And that's the moment that I was like, this crew needs a joke.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, because I was like, what rank is that cat? I didn't know the cat was one of the agents. Is that the cat's badge?

[Paul Scheer]

I do want to also just talk about that from the point of view of. It doesn't make any fucking sense because Sarah is brushing her teeth in the bathroom and the lights are off. And then when the lights come on, the cat is literally hanging behind her. So I don't even understand how she approached the sink without seeing a cat hanging from the ceiling. Why don't you have to have her brushing your teeth? Just have her walk into the room and see the cat. Like, ah. Like, why are we.

[June Diane Raphael]

Everything is. Everything is needlessly stepped out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what would have been cool? If the Navy, knowing that the FBI was coming, had also set a bunch of traps.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, interesting.

[Paul Scheer]

Wait, so you're saying. Okay, so I just want to get this straight.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Fun traps, right?

[Paul Scheer]

So basically, the Navy is like, hey, you motherfuckers kick us out of our. Our island once a month or once a year, so we're going to sabotage it for you. On top of your sabotage, here's the

[Jason Mantzoukas]

way I would rewrite it. So there's this, like, real kind of rivalry between the Navy and the FBI.

[Paul Scheer]

Got it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Who's going to use the island? Classic rivalry. And so they've set up.

[June Diane Raphael]

All of it's heated, you could say,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

yes, it's a heated rivalry. They've set up all of these traps, but they're fun, right?

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're. They're sort of like more like pranks, but they keep on derailing our crew because they don't know which is which.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. So it could be like a pranker or a serial killer.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then the Navy ends up being able to figure out that they're in trouble because some of their traps either didn't go off the way they expected it or something happened, which, like, the Navy is, by the way, actually, as I'm saying this, who was watching those cameras that were on Val Kilmer, but

[Paul Scheer]

nobody didn't take off the. Didn't he take off the island? Or I guess he didn't take off.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's what they reveal, is that he stayed on the island and with other FBI agents and was running the op until presumably, Johnny Lee Miller goes Finds them, kills them all, and strings him up. Because Johnny Lee Miller is the puppet master or the puppeteer.

[Paul Scheer]

But at the. But at the same point in this. Okay, sorry. At the same point.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Anyway, I wish. I wish it never happened.

[Paul Scheer]

It never even started. And so his crew was immediately killed. And I guess the question is, so when was his crew immediately killed that night?

[June Diane Raphael]

Wouldn't it have been fun to cut into the control room and get to see Val Kilmer holding court and being like, let's do this. Let's cue that. Let's set up this. Let's do that for a little bit of that beginning of Act 2. Have there be, like, a little. You could still believe. Oh, wait a minute. Maybe Val is the big bad.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And he's, you know. Because the team thinks he flew off the island, but we, the audience, know he's still there.

[Paul Scheer]

He's fucking with him.

[June Diane Raphael]

And maybe this is his thing. Maybe he's trying to eliminate them. Maybe he thinks they're coming for his job. Or maybe he's just lost his mind. Or any of the things that you cast Val Kilmer to represent should be present. But in fact, none of it is. None of the kooky, crazy Val Kilmer stuff. He just gives a speech at the beginning and that's it. You know?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And none of the fun antics of the Navy.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no. And. And no Navy pranks.

[Paul Scheer]

And so. But again, I guess what I'm looking at, too, is, like, from. Again, not to look at it from a line producer's point of view, but if I'm. If I'm a. If I'm a military line producer, I'm like, oh, we just wasted all this money, like. Cause clearly, Val Kilmer had a military line.

[June Diane Raphael]

Producers love wasting all the money.

[Paul Scheer]

All right, well, I mean, I'm just looking at it from a budget. I'm like, this guy made me rent out this island, and they didn't even get there. All the profilers are dead. Now I gotta do it again.

[June Diane Raphael]

See, for me, I'm looking at this from a wardrobe department's point.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay, got it. Okay, so tell me.

[June Diane Raphael]

And I'm like, you know what? We could have differentiated who a lot of these people were with wardrobe changes, you know, like, have someone be in, like, a Mets jersey or something that is truly identifiable so that you can really start to tell some of these guys apart.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, because you want. You want a little bit of, like, personality in these guys now at the end, I mean, they keep on blaming LL Cool J. It can't be more Clear that it's not LL Cool J, right? Like, it's like he passes every test, but yet Sarah beats the shit out of him. But wait, why does. I may be revealing that my own dumbness here. Why does LL Cool J shoot that one guy in the. Like, he shoots Johnny Lee Miller in the street, and that's Sarah's.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I didn't understand why.

[June Diane Raphael]

I didn't either.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay. Thank God. That makes me feel good. All right.

[June Diane Raphael]

Unless LL Cool J figured it out. Figured it out. If LL Cool J has figured it out, he thinks I'm. I'm killing the killer.

[Paul Scheer]

But then. But then you would need a moment. When she starts beating the shit out of him, it's like, hey, hey, I figured it out. It's not me, it's him. And he starts to prove it. Like, again, the only profiler in the mix, if he does do that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But here's a question I have, though, is like, is she. So she is able to find out that Ella Coolj is not the killer because she puts that special, like, blue light on his hands, which is, by

[Paul Scheer]

the way, not profiling powder.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And the powder from. But the powder she uses is from the. The writing on the backs of their. Of their jackets, which really frustrated me because, like, they've all touched those jackets.

[June Diane Raphael]

Correct. And not only that, not only that. Johnny Lee Miller, when he picks up his hands and it's revealed that the. The liquid or the whatever is on his hands. It's all over his hands, right? How did he not notice? He must have been hand. The clock must have been slick with

[Paul Scheer]

the liquid, like, you know, grabbing at it. Every level.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, Simon, when did she turn back those clocks? I mean, I don't know.

[Paul Scheer]

What was the cigarette made out of, by the way?

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, it's got acid in it. They say it had acid.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, but the amount of.

[June Diane Raphael]

How did he make that? How did he insert acid into a cigarette in, like, minutes?

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, not even, like. So he's in. He's put so much acid in the cigarette that if the. If the cigarette touched the ground, it burned through. So that would mean that if she touched it to take it out, her fingers would have just melted off, right?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes. How did it. How did the cigarette exist in a pack of cigarettes without the acid just

[Jason Mantzoukas]

dripping straight through the paper, activated by the lighter?

[June Diane Raphael]

I guess.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I. I was also thinking the whole time, like, as soon as shit started to hit the fan at 10am I was like, sweetie, go have a cigarette.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, it is not that. Like, please, the Patch, like, go have your cigarette. You are about to die.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow. Okay, so you're also.

[June Diane Raphael]

These are. Some of this stuff too, is. If this movie was at all fun, I wouldn't be looking so critically at it, you know, like, I wouldn't. I would be willing to be like, oh, and I loved it when she lit the cigarette and it was acid and she melted into the thing because that caused this to happen. That was so fun and it really paid this off or whatever. No, because it seems so random. Each thing seems so random. And I know that it's. Every kill is tailored to that person's particular weakness. Hers is cigarettes and this person's is panic and he's trying to push everybody's buttons. But it, it's not really there. It's not satisfying in any way, you know?

[Paul Scheer]

Well, I think that, you know, look, does this movie work? Absolutely not. Is it well acted? Probably not to the degree that I need it to be because I'm not ever feeling. The only time I felt tense in this entire movie and not frustrated was when the moment when Christian Slater came up to the car window, I was like, oh, cool, what are we going to see? That's the only tension moment in the movie because the rest of it is really like kind of bare knuckle brawling. It's like there's no, like, you know that famous scene in one battle after another where you know, they're doing a blood test. So cinematic, so cool. Love it. And it's like the same thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

Renny Harlan, Paul Thomas Anderson.

[Paul Scheer]

But it's like, how did you make the like the most exciting detective moment is a machine telling you who is the person. And guess what? The machine's wrong. Yeah. And the machine is.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wait a second, how. How did he get the machine to be wrong?

[Paul Scheer]

Cause he put blood under her finger.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right. But he put blood. He moved the blood, I guess, which. It's really okay. It's.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's unsatisfying in a way that, like, you know, when you pull at the threads of the reveal of. At the end of Usual Suspects, you know, and it's like, oh, wow, he really did all of these things. And you kind of get glimpses of all of the ways in which he kind of was able to do it or you. It. It all kind of falls into place. None of that is present here.

[Paul Scheer]

No.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like it's a. It's a big reveal without any supporting data or any supporting imagery that helps us understand how Johnny Lee Miller. How and why. Why Johnny? I guess we're Meant to believe he's just wants to kill.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Here's the other one.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, he wants the best. The best.

[June Diane Raphael]

He wants to kill. He wants a good opponent.

[Paul Scheer]

Wouldn't it be Val Kilmer?

[June Diane Raphael]

You would think, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He seems to know the most. But I think that I was also really shocked that as soon as they suspected someone of being the unsub. What do they call it? Unsub.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah. Unsub. By the way, the original title of the film. Unsub.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Unsubscribe.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, my. I mean, by the way. And they're like, oh, yeah, the studio thought that Mindhunters is better. You think? Unsub. What are you gonna see this week? Unsub.

[June Diane Raphael]

Unsub.

[Paul Scheer]

Unsub.

[June Diane Raphael]

So is it a submarine? Is it a submarine movie?

[Paul Scheer]

Unsub actually makes me believe every bit of bad writing that we're having a problem with. Like, if you. If you, after writing a great script, are like, unsub. Like, no, no. Like, that level, like, you didn't do it. You didn't do enough work.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay. But if they. They all. As soon as they accuse someone of being the unsub, the entire crew immediately pulls their gun out on them, and it looks like they're about to shoot them. And I'm like, I know you are like, a. A member of law enforcement on some level. Like, how about detain them? How about arrest them? How about take a set of handcuffs and handcuff them? Like, I guess they do that with alcooled. But I'm like, it seems like the immediate response is, you have to die now.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, immediately. Like, everybody panics all the time.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, they are. They are panicked. They are.

[June Diane Raphael]

They are meant to be the elite. And at no point are they like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We are the best of the best. We need to get our act together and work together to solve this problem and get out as. As. As a group. And in fact, it's. It truly is everyone for themselves. Everyone is acting so weirdly, selfishly. They're not a good team. And. And maybe you could. Maybe if we rewatched it, you would see Johnny Lee Miller.

[Paul Scheer]

No, Jason, don't give it that sewing

[June Diane Raphael]

discord or something like that, but it's just. Just not in the. It's not there.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, can I just say this? If I was gonna go back in the movie, the only thing I'd be watching is Johnny Lee Miller's jacket. Because clearly he's held everything in his jacket. His jacket is. Oh, I got remotes, I got transistors. Like, he would be buzzing. He is. He is wearing, like. I've seen this before. Like, Jason, you might have seen this on some travel websites. These, like, travel jackets where you can put them on, but you can also shove your computer back the. So it looks like a jacket.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like harnesses and 43 pockets.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Charging cables.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Has he killed since he was 10 years old?

[Paul Scheer]

I have to imagine, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wouldn't it have been great if it turns out that the. That he is responsible? He is the case study that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris. That house. That. That's his murder.

[Paul Scheer]

It will.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, the. The person they're studying in profiler class is in fact, part of the class.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, they should have made. They should. Yeah. They should have been the most elusive serial killer. Then it's like, let's recreate his last crime scene. Let's do this. I will say this. She doesn't even profile him at the end. The way she gets him at the end is through finger. I mean, literally just fingerprinting. Like, it's. There's nothing about it. She doesn't go, of course. You did this, and you did this. She just figures it out because of the. The fingerprints. So it's like she doesn't get a win.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's not even good tactical. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And he just confesses, right? She doesn't do anything.

[Paul Scheer]

She does.

[June Diane Raphael]

She's looking. She is looking at LL Cool J's hands. Does not see the glowy substance. Looks confounded. And he holds his hands up to

[Paul Scheer]

be like, dummy, dummy.

[June Diane Raphael]

To be like, hey, idiot, it's me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Had he not done that, she would never have checked his fingers.

[June Diane Raphael]

I think she would have thought she was the murderer. I think she might have been like, oh, no, did I do it?

[Paul Scheer]

She would pull her gun out on herself.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'll take myself out just in case. Oh, my God, that's the best ending.

[June Diane Raphael]

And then he's like, I killed my parents, and nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever said, did you do it? Or why? Nobody ever asked me. He just wants to be recognized as the murderer, I guess.

[Paul Scheer]

Again, I want to talk about this from the other perspective of saying LL Cool J jumps on board. I'm here to monitor because he's been spending too much money on props and renting houses and fly sound effects. And then what you reveal is, I wanted to be with the best of the best because I am a serial killer. So he coordinated his appearance there because he is a master serial killer. And he was like, I needed to do a cat and mouse, but yet there are no Clues. It's really just countdown clocks. And. But like, again, it's like there's. There's no reason to feel excited about any of these choices.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, not like I just never understood where the clocks came from. If you had told me, like, oh yeah, my parents died at the strike of midnight or I killed them at the strike of midnight, or I was. I was assaulted by a clock. Like, I don't know, I needed. So I needed.

[Paul Scheer]

I was assaulted by a clock. Another great T shirt I needed.

[June Diane Raphael]

Just imagine the scene.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Why do you care about clock so much?

[June Diane Raphael]

Imagine the scene that we never saw, which is Johnny Lee Miller packing to go to the island. It's like it's a dozen watches. It's 500 clubs, by the way.

[Paul Scheer]

All those, they're all. They're all not automatic, but they're all manual clocks. So again, if you're next to Johnny Lee Miller, all you're hearing is like, he is a walking time bomb. Literally.

[June Diane Raphael]

Also, one of the traps is like, I think three crossbows.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like that one guy gets hit with three arrows.

[Paul Scheer]

Didn't use that.

[June Diane Raphael]

That are fired. I don't know from what, but I gotta assume crossbows.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, but here's my question about that trap. The initial trap before that trap set off. Is someone getting electrocuted in the water?

[Paul Scheer]

Maybe on the favorite line in the favorite line in the whole movie, which was like.

[June Diane Raphael]

So

[Paul Scheer]

like basically it's like this action scene where he's trying to get. Just get to reach down and oh my God.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

First of all, that was a very long sequence of watching so long shoot out a cement wall. And he says that the breaker rooms behind there. And as he's shooting, I'm like, is he just going to try to shoot his way in there? Are we going to be watching hours?

[June Diane Raphael]

I thought so too. It was so drawn out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then you realize, no, he's just shooting sort of like footholds, hand and

[June Diane Raphael]

foothold so he can boulder like so he can free Solo from one room to another. So he can throw the circuit breaker so that he And Clifton Collins Jr. Won't be electrocuted.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I tell you, when he started to free Solo, I was like, I can't take this.

[June Diane Raphael]

But wouldn't the lights in the water flip the circuit breaker on their own? Wouldn't that surge flip the circuit breaker?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't know about the engineering of the.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's what I was like.

[Paul Scheer]

I think that that's an old building then I feel like they're circuitary.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But here's my Question, though. So initially the trap was, you're going to be electrocuted by the water. But then. And nobody was. Nobody, I think, happened to be. Okay.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But then there's a double trap.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, there were two watches, remember?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I don't remember, Jason.

[June Diane Raphael]

So before that trap, before that trap, they found two watches.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So that was.

[June Diane Raphael]

So which says, this is. The next one's gonna be a double murder, which it looks like it's going to be.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I see. So you first think.

[June Diane Raphael]

And I think the misdirection.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What's his face.

[June Diane Raphael]

But then you think it's gonna be those two guys that are in the water. What's that?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But then it is just one.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes, because they survive.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The first one didn't go off.

[June Diane Raphael]

But again, it would have been three if both LLPJ and Clifton Collins Jr. Had died in the electrocution and those guys shut the water off and got the crossbow arrows, three people would have died.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. He could have been done.

[June Diane Raphael]

The movie is a mess.

[Paul Scheer]

The movie. It's also like, he could have, like. So I guess at any given point, the movie could have been over.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well.

[June Diane Raphael]

Or at any given point, the movie could have started.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Both could have started and finished.

[June Diane Raphael]

The movie exists in, like, liminal space.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay. It's time at a time.

[June Diane Raphael]

But it really is so.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But here's my question, though. I know he references this and there's a flashback to Johnny Lee Miller at the front of the line, on the front lines heading toward that boat. But what is the justification for why he was in the front when the bomb goes off on the boat?

[June Diane Raphael]

I think so he can set off

[Paul Scheer]

the bomb, even though it was a

[June Diane Raphael]

very strong tripwire, retroactively. Now that we know he's the bad guy, I think he needs to blow up that boat so they can't get off. He need. So I think he's purposefully sabotaging one to it. I mean, I know, but he's also crazy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's true.

[Paul Scheer]

But I think he probably figured it all out. I mean, he seems. Again, say what you will about Johnny Lee Miller, he. He's planned a lot of stuff, and he. And he. And with. With very.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what? You're right. Like, why are we drilling down on three murders versus two?

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, he did plan a lot of stuff, and a lot of stuff worked.

[Paul Scheer]

He's pretty effective.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And when I say it's like the game Mouse trap, that is what it's like. It is like, oh, everything feels on the verge of being a Rube Goldberg Machine. Rube Goldberg Murder Machine, which is the name of my punk rock band I love. And it really is, like, so convoluted, you know, like the one. The crossbow one that makes the most sense. Turn this wheel. Crossbow. Go. Great.

[Paul Scheer]

Okay.

[June Diane Raphael]

I love that some of the other ones are so weirdly like, I truly

[Jason Mantzoukas]

want to drain his blood.

[June Diane Raphael]

Why? And why write all of those numbers in the blood? To communicate he's a real sickle.

[Paul Scheer]

Guys, you ever profile of anybody? I mean, I know a lot about this world.

[June Diane Raphael]

They don't. They have no interest in solving any of the mysteries. They just want to find the traps.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Here's the thing. But here's the thing. They should have really started not just pointing fingers and trying to shoot each other and blaming each other, but really started to try to find out a lot about each other. Right.

[June Diane Raphael]

Because that's the movie.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Absolutely. And it's like, well, Johnny Lee Miller, like, why did you. What were your parents like? Like, what happened? And also, why did he kill them?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Because he's a sicko. That's all we need to know. We just need to know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's a killer sicko. Paul.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey. I tend to smell him. I don't smell him. I just tell him. Oh, boy.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, God.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm just telling you what the. What is. Look, obviously we had opinions about this movie. The people out there with a different opinion. Wolves of Glendale play us in.

[June Diane Raphael]

Paul and Jason and June talk a lot about what makes a movie good or not, but everyone knows they're acting actually full of sh. We need a second opinion. Someone that knows what they're talking about. We need a second opinion. We need a second. Oh, give me a second.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, we need a second opinion. So, surprisingly, Jason, earlier in the podcast, you said I had never heard of this movie. Many people have not. This is one of the lowest seen films that we've done in a long time. I know this because only 735 reviews for a movie that came out 20 years ago. That's pretty low for us. 77% are five star reviews.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, and, you know, look, there's. This is.

[June Diane Raphael]

So the people that found it, loved it.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, yes, and. And you know, and a lot of them are just taking a lot of anger out on the people who didn't like it, you know? You know, they don't listen to those couch potato critics who gave it one star. It's better than that, right? We've read of those a million times, but I'm just going to kind of hit ones that I thought were a little bit better. Like Patricia Fentress who titled her review, Gotta say, I outright love this film. And you will too, I'm sure. Now Patricia writes, this was an amazing movie. I have to be honest, when I saw the DVD on the shelf, I wasn't too sure about it. The COVID caught my attention and so did the title. So I picked it up, took a look at the COVID and a little better, saw one of my favorite rappers and actor was in it. And I said, hmm. And I took a look at the preview in the back. And after reading the preview, I was still left a little unsure, but I was interested because LL Cool J was in it. And I thought about it for a bit because I was a little disappointed in some of LL's earlier movies, you know, Deep Blue Sea, caught up and H20. But I said, hell, I'll try it. And after watching the movie, I am glad I picked it up because it is for sure going into my growing DVD archive for good. If you like LL Cool J like I do, you will for sure love his acting in this one. And if you like really good whodunits, cop movies, movies that keep you guessing and scratching your heads, or movies leaving you saying, I would never have thought of that or I never knew or saw that coming or really didn't, decent action movies or thrillers, then this is a movie for you. You will for sure love this movie. Or even if you want to try to get into one of those kinds of movies, this is kind of a great one to start off with. It for sure left me floored with my mouth open, saying no freaking way. How in the hell. And just left in awe. I cannot say how much I enjoyed this movie. It is a must see.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow. I mean, not just an incredible review, but it beautifully acted.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. I mean, one of the best.

[June Diane Raphael]

Now, I mean really, I will say, like you brought that to life, you know, and if. Cause you're just listening at home. But if you were to be watching Paul, really find the nuance, find this the truth of that's all I can do.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's all I can do.

[Paul Scheer]

You know, this is the way I kind of am able to get my acting out. You know, it's like they don't pay me to act, they pay me to wait. So I'll act for free whenever you get a chance.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's so interesting. I will say now that I'm thinking about it, LL Cool J, I think stealthily becoming. How did this get made also?

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely. And, and, and by the way, I

[Jason Mantzoukas]

love Watching him on screen, he's so.

[June Diane Raphael]

Watch.

[Paul Scheer]

So endlessly watchable, you know, My parents made me destroy my LL Cool J album when we were on a Born Again Christian moment because they had heard about LL Cool J. And, you know, and it was. And it was the I'm Bad album, you know, so it was early LL and, man, it was a real rough moment because I saw my. Like, I. In my mind, if I could wear, like, the black leather pants and the big chain, I would have loved a kangal hat. I would have done all that stuff.

[June Diane Raphael]

And you didn't. You couldn't convince your mom that ladies

[Paul Scheer]

love Cool J. I mean, I was trying to. I thought that she would be open to that, but no, she wasn't. And that's heartbreaking, you know, And I want.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It makes me so mad. Like, as a parent now, I'm like, I wish you had just never gotten those albums to have a kid get them and then have to destroy them.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah, I had to destroy.

[June Diane Raphael]

What was the mode of destruction?

[Paul Scheer]

Three albums were destroyed on three different occasions. One was Poisons. Look what the cat dragged in.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

Had to break that album over my knee and then throw it in the trash can.

[June Diane Raphael]

And vinyl.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, also. Just take it from your child and walk away with it. Like, the fact that you had to do the.

[June Diane Raphael]

Take it out of circulation.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And it was a low garbage day, so I saw it in the garbage for quite some time. Like, you know, so that was tricky.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You have to stop. You have to start feeling, this is too much for me.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, and then the other one was In Excess Suicide Blonde. That was a cd, because my mom thought it was promoting suicide. Even though that song is not about promoting.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's not at all that. But okay. Because I was like, in excess makes no sense.

[Paul Scheer]

That CD was just taken from me. I didn't have to destroy it, but I had the case. But never had the CD again again. And then the LL Cool J was tricky because LL Cool J was a. A tape and tape over it. No, I.

[June Diane Raphael]

It was.

[Paul Scheer]

It was a tape that was, like, bought at the store, so it wasn't like that. And I had to smash it with a hammer. I remember where it was on my front porch.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I honestly. Cut. Cut. Stop the recording. I cannot take any more.

[Paul Scheer]

That was a tr. That was. That. The LL Cool J was the one that hurt the most because I just love so much.

[June Diane Raphael]

Do you think there's a listener. Do you think there's anybody who listens to this podcast for whom they discovered it at A young age. And their parents said, you can't listen to this. Like, are we the LL Cool J

[Paul Scheer]

To anybody out in the audience?

[June Diane Raphael]

Were you a young person who was told this is for grownups or something?

[Paul Scheer]

I've talked to many people who tell me that they listen to this with their kids, but then their hand is very closely on the volume button because they never know when it's gonna be or very tricky. But they. But they are. They are taking that. They're taking that risk. We're not a dirty, dirty show. But every. Like, I think it's less about cursing and more about.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, it's really just language.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, but I'm so curious if there's anybody. If you're out there, you know, let

[Paul Scheer]

us know if you're.

[June Diane Raphael]

Let us know. Let us know if we were ever forbidden in your household.

[Paul Scheer]

I will read you one other review just because it was pretty good. This is from. We had to go to IMDb to find more reviews because Amazon was a little empty. We went to IMDb and found this one by sweet, lovely Crazy Butterfly, who also reviewed it in 2005. Both of these are from 2005. These reviews. I have been reading comments where people say some situations are over the top and that they act silly and do stuff that are hard to believe. Well, seeing as they are professional profilers and must have great minds, what did you expect? Of course, the whole plot was a bit dramatic, but hey, the dude is crazy and brilliant. What did you expect? It's a fantastic movie, and I fail to see why people are so into putting down great movies. I bet some saw it twice just to find something wrong. Then again, I agree, some actors could be different, but the whole team fits perfectly. So why the hell are you complaining? In my opinion, the best part was when they all fall asleep because of the coffee. And when Sarah changes the time to stay 15 minutes behind. Really clever stuff. And Nick's death was the most well thought out, in my opinion. Great job, indeed. 10 out of 10.

[June Diane Raphael]

What if one single person had said, I don't drink coffee. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm just gonna. Hi. I'm just gonna hydrate. I'm just gonna drink water.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, yeah. I don't. I don't need to get just one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, just one coffee. I have a weird reaction to caffeine.

[June Diane Raphael]

I don't do coffee. You know, Like, I've never been in a room with whatever it is, six or seven other people, and every person is like, yep, coffee.

[Paul Scheer]

Let's go I was right in my thought that this was shot primarily because a line producer saw an easy way in. It was because this is a place, a fake village that they were able to get used by the Dutch government. So it's a. It's a fake village where riots are similar government. Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. And so you can actually see a lot of Dutch writing if you look closely at the posters on the wall.

[June Diane Raphael]

Funny.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, I love.

[June Diane Raphael]

See, that's. I. Boy, I like that. There's something interesting about that, but there's also something that makes no sense. It's really hard to put a serial killer story inside of only law enforcement.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like, there are no civilians being killed by Johnny Lee Miller killer. Right. Like he's only preying on FBI agents. Right.

[Paul Scheer]

That would be it.

[June Diane Raphael]

And that's weird because you don't have that it could happen to anybody fear. He is purposefully going after the best of the best. So it really doesn't make any. You would think that he would be leveraging killing innocents. And there should be something innocent if

[Paul Scheer]

they were in a trap situation where they had to find a serial killer in the. In the. Like. I mean, again, not that. Not saying that even as a joke, but put them in a live situation where there could be a lot more.

[June Diane Raphael]

Here's what it is. Here's what it is. Even with the circumstances that there are that we have, the Navy is still there. There's. There have been a series of deaths on this naval base on this island that the Navy so far has been unable to figure out. So they're bringing in the best of the best profilers and they've got to figure out. And then you find out it's. It's one of their own, and he's been going and killing Navy people. And who knows, I don't know what. But that they're. I guess then they are not innocents really either. I'm trying to. It doesn't matter.

[Paul Scheer]

Here's what I will say. So much work has been put into getting this script back, but everyone agreed to this movie and worked their asses off. LL Cool J lost 40 pounds, traveled with the Philadelphia Police Department for weeks to figure out how to play this character. Clifton Collins Jr. He decided to just take a wheelchair out to Hollywood Boulevard and acted in this way to make sure that he was playing it accurately. Here's the two things that I thought you would really like. Gerard Butler was supposed to play the Johnny Lee Miller role, but then dropped out. It was like, I'm out.

[June Diane Raphael]

Would have been Great.

[Paul Scheer]

Now, the original cast that they wanted, it was supposed to be Ryan Phillippe, Reese Witherspoon, and their boss was going to be either Christopher Walken, Martin Sheen, or Gary Busey.

[June Diane Raphael]

Great.

[Paul Scheer]

Not bad, not bad, not bad. And of course, and everybody younger.

[June Diane Raphael]

That's like a younger squeaky, which I

[Paul Scheer]

think is a little bit more fun. The other thing that was interesting is apparently there's an alternate ending where LL Cool J kills Johnny Lee Miller's character. And I have a feeling, just reading that now for the first time, that that's what we see at the end.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, no. I guess Johnny Lee Miller's wearing a bulletproof vest. That's how he gets away with that. But, like, what if LL Cool J had just shot him in the head?

[Paul Scheer]

No one's doing headshots.

[June Diane Raphael]

No. Yeah. Nobody's putting one in the brain a la Johnny Casper in Miller's Crossing always put one in the brain. Nobody's doing that. Or John Wick. You know, body shot, body shot, headshot. You know, what are we doing here?

[Paul Scheer]

And now, you know what? You may like mindhunters, but I'm gonna stick with ali Walker, Julian McMahon, and Robert Davi. Those are my profilers. Four seasons. Four seasons.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

Any final thoughts on this movie?

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, this was, I will say, because we're getting there. Not worth it.

[Paul Scheer]

No.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, not. Not. Not really worth it at all. My favorite. My. The thing that I loved the most, I love this era of boxy Volvo that when they. In the opening, cold open there, the whole thing takes place in a, like, old school boxy Volvo station wagon. I was like, give me this. I love it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I had one of those.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, you did?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. For a little spell, we had one of those. And it.

[Paul Scheer]

Wow.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You bring them back. People think. People like. I feel like car companies think we want these sleek looking, you know, curvy lines on cars.

[June Diane Raphael]

They all look the same now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And we don't want that.

[June Diane Raphael]

And we want unique looking cars.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. If this.

[June Diane Raphael]

Even if they're not the most aerodynamic, you know, who care?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, who cares if the movie did anything? It did that. Which was make us think about car design and representation in the automobile industry. I don't know what to say about this. Again, I think it was just hard for me because I was so excited and I thought it was for me, and then it wasn't.

[June Diane Raphael]

And the setup put so many interesting things into motion, including Val Kilmer. I was like, fuck, Val Kilmer is going to be in this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I was excited about Christian Slater. Everything that I thought was going to happen didn't happen. But not in a good way.

[June Diane Raphael]

I agree.

[Paul Scheer]

I will say one other thing because it did remind me so much of of law abiding Citizen that if you've not listened to our episode a few weeks ago from Last Looks, somebody from the film, I can't name who, they asked to be anonymous, gave us some great details about some of those gimmicks and effects and what went in behind them and a whole bunch of stuff. Oh that's cool. And also sent me a picture. And June, this will mean nothing to you, but the wrap shirt was the gun from the funeral gun. The one that like pops up? The robot gun? Yeah, that's. That was the. The rap shirt. Is.

[June Diane Raphael]

That was the rap.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, they knew what they were making.

[June Diane Raphael]

All right. Fun.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, pleasure seeing you both here as always.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow. We really did it. We really did it.

[Paul Scheer]

How did this get Made? Thanks so much for listening to how did this Get Made? If you have a correction or omission from this episode that you want us to hear, well, you can leave us a voicemail at 619p a u l a s k. That's 619paul ask or write a comment on our discord at discord. GG tune in next week to listen to our Last Looks episode where we respond to all of the best messages that you have left for us and we'll announce next week's movie that we'll be covering on the show. Plus, Jason is always joining me on Last Looks to chat about our favorite TV shows, movies, music, books, whatever is on our mind. Sometimes we just hang out. And if you need even more how did this get made? Before Friday's new episode, know that we re release classic episodes from the Vault every single Tuesday. If you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please make sure you are subscribed to our feed and you have automatic downloads turned on in the show settings. That really helps us and we appreciate it. So make sure you got those automatic downloads turned on. And lastly, I got to give a huge thanks to our behind the scenes team. I'm talking about our producers, Scott Sonne, Molly Reynolds, our engineer Casey Holford, and our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum. We will forever be thankful to the one and only Avril Halle. That's all I got people. See you next week on Last Looks. Bye for now.