Podcast Summary: "How I Write" with Ocean Vuong

Host: David Perell
Guest: Ocean Vuong, poet, novelist, NYU Professor
Date: March 25, 2026

Overview

This episode explores the art, philosophy, and mechanics of writing with Ocean Vuong, acclaimed poet, novelist, and NYU professor. Through a wide-ranging conversation, Ocean and David discuss the necessity of awe and freshness in writing, the homogenization of language and publishing, the importance of estrangement and novelty, and how to remain daring and authentic in the creative process. The dialogue is rich in literary theory, personal anecdotes, and close readings—perfect for anyone seeking insight into the deeper currents that shape great writing.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

Cultivating Awe, Wonder, & Estrangement in Writing

[01:48–04:54]

• Ocean embraces a writing approach steeped in awe and novelty; sees metaphor as a muscle to be developed through observation, not just cleverness.

  • Quote (Ocean, 02:28):
    "A strong metaphor takes years to come to, and the rest is arrangement and syntax. You'll draft your way through that metaphor."
  • Using Isaac Babel’s description of a sunset “as if beheaded” as a prime example: it disrupts familiar, mimetic description and brings personal, historical resonance.

• Argues that mimesis (imitation) leads to timid, utilitarian prose, whereas metaphor and poiesis enliven both the writer and the reader.

Rethinking the Workshop: Recognition Before Critique

[05:22–11:56]

• Ocean’s teaching method centers on building recognition of a writer’s tendencies before offering critique.

  • Quote (Ocean, 06:35):
    "You might have too much work. Sometimes it's much harder to go back into a pile of rubble to salvage the work than starting completely anew."
  • Advocates for suspending critique to let originality emerge, comparing this process to a Japanese botanist who seeks novelty over convention.

• On feedback and the peril of too-early, dogmatic criticism:

  • Quote (Ocean, 08:52):
    "Imagine sending a first draft and everyone pulls it apart with their dogmas... the problem with those rules is that anytime you ask them why, after two or three whys, the whole argument usually falls apart."

• For Ocean, self-recognition and pattern-awareness are prerequisites to authentic revision.

Novelty versus Structure: Historical & Cultural Context

[13:26–23:32]

• Explores how the definition of "literature" is arbitrary and historically contingent.

  • The literary canon and genres have shifted; novels once marginalized as “women’s work.”
  • The rise of standardized, utilitarian prose (e.g., newspapers after the Civil War) shaped expectations for “good writing”—often favoring clarity, brevity, and invisibility of authorial voice.

• Quote (Ocean, 20:03):
  "Culture in the 20th century has settled on mostly one way [to write]. They've allowed one way to prevail."

• Modern tools like Grammarly and spellcheck impose further standardization, squeezing out linguistic diversity and daring.

The Right-Angle Effect: Culture's Homogenization

[23:32–26:25]

• David and Ocean draw analogies between writing and painting/architecture.

  • Industrialization and technology have led to the prevalence of "right angles"—not just in design, but in prose style.
  • Quote (Ocean, 24:37):
    "Straight lines don't exist in nature... so I think the trouble for a young writer, a novice writer, to really innovate according to their terms... everything from draft one to the publication process will hinder that."

• The creative system rewards conformity even as it celebrates innovation rhetorically.

Enchantment, Estrangement, and the Death of Cliché

[28:12–32:06]

• Ocean invokes Russian formalist Victor Shklovsky: no subject is inherently cliché; true art estranges the familiar, making us "see" rather than merely recognize.

  • Quote (Ocean quoting Shklovsky, 30:32):
    "What we call art exists in order to give back the sensation of life, in order to make us feel things, in order to make the stone stony."

• The task is to rescue the world’s most familiar images (flowers, grandmothers, sunsets) through displacement and estrangement.

Deep Perception, Slowing Down, and the Craft of Attention

[34:37–37:57]

• Writing, for Ocean, is primarily a matter of perception—slowing down to observe, then using syntax as the final, crucial step.

  • Quote (Ocean, 35:29):
    "80% of writing is looking and thinking. The last part is syntax."

• Close readings of lines by Richard Siken and a story about Ben Lerner's office hour emphasize originality—"sentences the species never encountered before."

Syntax, Memorability, and the Haunting Poem

[37:57–41:31]

• Syntax is the “downloading mechanism” by which works embed in the reader's mind.

  • Quote (Ocean, 41:07):
    "What I'm interested in, in writing, is not so much how to hook somebody, but how to stay with a reader... I'm actually more interested in being haunted."

• Ocean is less interested in capturing attention, more in creating works that linger, haunt, and become a part of the reader’s consciousness.

Risk, Daring, and Writing Outside the Lines

[43:54–46:58; 69:35–72:14]

• Writing is likened to skateboarding—failure, risk, and experimentation are integral.
  • Quote (Ocean, 70:36):
    "Daringness is the willingness to risk it, make a wager and see what happens... failure is actually not just a prerequisite to success but part of experiencing life."
  • Ocean's upbringing in skate, punk, and streetball cultures fostered a healthy disregard for the pressures of conformity.

Poetry & Nature Writing: Laboratories for Estrangement

[50:31–56:06]

• Poetry, less bound by plot or assignment, becomes a lab for linguistic transformation.

  • Nature writing, too, thrives when it moves beyond description to fuse external observation with internal experience.
  • Reading from J. A. Baker on “mud”—a lesson in turning a simple observation into a marvel.

• Quote (Ocean, 55:27): "Watching an artist discover—delight. Fun. Once you get away from the fun, you stop seeing it."

Language: Its Power and Its Limits

[74:27–79:19]

• As a bilingual writer, Ocean is attuned to the subjectivity and volatility of meaning.

  • Quote (Ocean, 75:03):
    "All words are stained by things beyond the definition. Wittgenstein says the meaning of a word is its use."

• Language can both liberate and limit; it can be a tool of enlightenment or tyranny.

  • Cautions against romanticizing literature’s power, acknowledging that art has enabled both social change and atrocity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the essential daring in art
  "Do you have enough courage? Do you not have enough fortitude to risk it?"
  —Ocean Vuong [70:36]

• On estrangement and artistic vision
  "Art is the means to live through the making of a thing... the device of art is the estrangement of things."
  —Ocean quoting Shklovsky [30:32]

• On the lesson from Ben Lerner
  "He said, oh, we're out here to write sentences the species has never encountered. Not only that we're out here to do that, but that it's possible in this lifetime."
  —Ocean Vuong [38:02]

• On conformity in publishing
  "You read a book and then you think, I feel like I read this before... they all have the same thing."
  —Ocean Vuong [64:44]

• On the paradox of art and cruelty
  "What's all that art for if you can still do something so monstrous, if you can be so inhumane using humanity's treasures?"
  —Ocean Vuong [78:39]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Awe & Metaphor: [01:48]–[04:54]
• The Workshop Model & Recognition: [05:22]–[11:56]
• Novelty, Structure, and Literary History: [13:26]–[23:32]
• Homogenization of Writing & Culture: [23:32]–[26:25]
• Cliché, Estrangement, and Art’s Function: [28:12]–[32:06]
• Perception and Attention in Writing: [34:37]–[37:57]
• Memorable Syntax and Haunting Works: [37:57]–[41:31]
• Daring, Failure, and Skater Mindset: [43:54]–[46:58]; [69:35]–[72:14]
• Poetry, Nature Writing as Laboratory: [50:31]–[56:06]
• Language’s Power and Limitations: [74:27]–[79:19]

Final Takeaways

• Novelty, daring, and estrangement are not just artistic flourishes—they are the true engines of meaningful, memorable writing.
• The systems around writing (publishing, academia, digital tools) can stifle originality and deepen conformity, but the individual writer can resist through self-recognition, attentiveness, and courage.
• Language is at once a source of liberation and constriction: mastery over it requires both humility and bold experimentation.
• Fun, delight, and playfulness are not ancillary but essential to seeing—and writing—the world anew.

For writers: The episode encourages you to suspend critique, embrace the unknown, and trust your idiosyncratic vision.
For readers: Think not only about what’s said, but how it’s said—and seek the works that truly “haunt” you beyond recognition.

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