Podcast Summary: How Is This Better?

Episode: Conversion Therapy and The Consequences of Legalizing Harm

Host: Akilah Hughes
Guest: Ryan Kendall, civil rights attorney and conversion therapy survivor
Date: October 17, 2025

Overview

This episode tackles the resurgence of conversion therapy in the United States, focusing on efforts to roll back bans on the practice for LGBTQ minors. Host Akilah Hughes and guest Ryan Kendall (a survivor and advocate) discuss the legal, personal, and societal consequences of reframing abuse as protected “speech.” They explore the Supreme Court case Chiles v. Salazar, the tactics of advocacy groups, the hypocrisy of so-called “freedom” campaigns, and ultimately, the lived reality and lasting harm of conversion therapy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. America’s Double Standard on Human Rights (00:39)

• Akilah Hughes notes how the U.S. critiques abuses abroad, but rebrands harm domestically as “debate” when attached to faith or free speech.
• Conversion therapy is described as "psychological torture" masquerading under names like “restorative counseling” or “sexual identity realignment.”

2. Ryan Kendall’s Story: Family, Fear, and Forced “Treatment” (01:32 – 08:24)

• Ryan Kendall recounts growing up in a religious, close-knit, but conservative family in Colorado Springs.
• From a young age, he learned to suppress his identity, fearing total rejection:

  "When I put these two things together, what being gay was, and that I was gay, I knew very clearly that this was bad news for me in my family and that I had to keep this a secret because I knew I'd be rejected." (01:32)

• After his parents discovered his sexual orientation, he faced immediate verbal abuse and threats:

  "You're going to hell. You're going to die of AIDS. I mean, they were just verbally abusive immediately, and I was terrified." (04:18)

• His escape to a friend’s home led to further trauma, as his parents pursued and harassed that friend with false accusations.

3. The Mechanics and Pseudoscience of Conversion Therapy (05:55–08:24)

• Initially sent to a local Christian therapist who acted disgusted, Ryan was then referred via Focus on the Family to Exodus International and NARTH.

• Sessions combined religious shame, scare tactics, and pseudoscientific behaviors—such as being told to "go play basketball" and "drink Gatorade" to mimic heterosexuality.

  "There are no techniques. So it was a lot of pressure. God doesn't want you to be this way. You're going to die of AIDS at the age of 30..." (07:06)

• Humiliation and emotional devastation were routine:

  "My mom at one point said she would have rather I'd been born with Down Syndrome or that she had an abortion rather than a gay son." (08:12)

• Ryan reflects on the lasting nature of this harm:

  “When they reject their kid for being queer or trans, what they say and what they do is written on that child's heart forever. …There will never be a world where those words aren't etched on my heart… That belief you instill... kills people. It almost killed me.” (08:29)

4. The Legal Front: Chiles v. Salazar and the Supreme Court (08:58–13:45)

• The episode highlights the Supreme Court’s deliberation over Colorado’s ban on conversion therapy, after a Christian counselor (backed by Alliance Defending Freedom) claims a First Amendment right to provide such therapy.

• Conservative Justices question the validity of medical consensus and question evidence of harm.

  “If the Supreme Court strikes this down on First Amendment grounds, it means that quackery and snake oil of all kinds will be legal...” (10:38 – Ryan Kendall)

• Ryan underscores that such a decision could deregulate all talk therapy, opening the door for any unproven or discredited methods to claim legitimacy.

  "If a doctor thought that you could treat cancer by drinking gasoline, we would ban them... Right. So Chiles wants to do this, you know, scientifically baseless form of torture..." (10:38)

Notable Legal Ironies (11:43)

• Hughes draws attention to double standards: bans on gender-affirming care are justified as “protecting children,” but denying protection from conversion therapy is treated as a free speech win.

5. Conversion Therapy: The Evidence of Harm (13:07–14:46)

• Hughes cites The Trevor Project and the American Psychological Association:

  “Youth who undergo conversion therapy are more than twice as likely to attempt suicide ... there is no credible evidence orientation can be changed, but ample evidence attempting to change it causes harm.” (13:07)

• Ryan speaks candidly to the Justices:

  "...conversion therapy nearly killed me. …Verbal abuse and emotional abuse are still abuse. And telling people that who you are is flawed because you're gay with no basis is abuse.” (13:45)

• He accuses Supreme Court actors of perilously disregarding LGBTQ youth:

  "...they are in the business of killing queer kids. That's what they want and that's what will happen." (14:33)

6. Hypocrisy & Broader Political Strategy (14:46–15:45)

• The same legal group defending conversion therapy pushes for book bans relating to race or LGBTQ issues.

• Ryan suggests this isn’t hypocrisy but consistent erasure:

  “It's very coherent worldview of erasing LGBT people from public life. We see that with what they're doing in trans medical care. We see this with book bans.” (14:56)

• First Amendment defenses are unevenly applied, and rarely protect queer people.

7. The Stakes: Beyond Conversion Therapy (15:45–16:40)

• Striking down regulatory bans would limit states’ ability to discipline any therapist for talk-based harms, opening the door to medical misinformation and other abuses.
• Laws alone cannot stave off hate: community, mutual aid, and survivor solidarity are also essential (15:45–16:40).

8. Words of Survival and Hope (17:16)

• Ryan Kendall’s message to LGBTQ youth:

  "There's nothing wrong with who you are. You are a miracle. Your identity is beautiful. Conversion therapy is a lie. And do not let it take who you are away from you. You can survive and thrive, I promise you, because I have..." (17:25)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On family trauma:

  "What they say and what they do is written on that child's heart forever. ...That belief... kills people. It almost killed me." —Ryan Kendall (08:29)

• On legal stakes:

  "If the Supreme Court strikes this down...quackery and snake oil of all kinds will be legal under Constitutional law." —Ryan Kendall (10:38)

• On hypocrisy and erasure:

  “It's very coherent worldview of erasing LGBT people from public life.” —Ryan Kendall (14:56)

• On hope and survival:

  "There's nothing wrong with who you are. You are a miracle. Your identity is beautiful. Conversion therapy is a lie...You can survive and thrive, I promise you." —Ryan Kendall (17:25)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:39 – Framing the episode: Human rights hypocrisy and the conversion therapy debate
• 01:32 – 05:48 – Ryan’s story: Upbringing, family trauma, and first escape
• 05:55 – 08:29 – Inside conversion therapy: Tactics, pseudoscience, and deep wounds
• 08:58 – 13:07 – The Supreme Court case: Legal roadblocks and implications
• 13:07 – 14:46 – Evidence of harm and direct call-out of conservative Justices
• 14:46 – 15:45 – Conversion therapy as a piece of a coordinated anti-LGBTQ strategy
• 15:45 – 16:40 – The wider implications: Medical misinformation and truth under threat
• 17:16 – 18:00 – Personal message to queer youth and the essential role of hope

Conclusion

This episode draws a direct line from personal, lived trauma to national policy debates, stripping away euphemisms to expose the lethal harm of conversion therapy. Akilah Hughes and Ryan Kendall argue that redefining torture as “free speech” is a moral and constitutional crisis—one with consequences for all marginalized groups. The Supreme Court decision is pending, but the urgent call to action is not: “There’s nothing wrong with who you are … You can survive and thrive.”