Does Shaming AI Users Actually Work?

Summary

Podcast Summary: How Is This Better?

Episode: Does Shaming AI Users Actually Work?

Host: Akilah Hughes
Guests: Dr. Fatima Abd Al Rahman, Devin Maroney
Date: July 10, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, host Akilah Hughes explores the controversial question: does shaming people who use AI actually work? She’s joined by YouTube creator, science communicator, and former astrophysicist Dr. Fatima Abd Al Rahman, who recently released a video titled "How to Anti AI Better." Through personal anecdotes and a systematic lens, the conversation dives into the rapidly solidifying camps around AI, the inefficacy of moralizing or shaming individual users, and how harm reduction principles might give the anti-AI movement a better shot at meaningful change.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The AI Hype Cycle and Divided Public (00:46–04:18)

• Akilah introduces the polarized environment: "On one side, we have the tech bro billionaires trying to usher in a future that even, even they feel could be shaky at best... and on the other side, we have people who are resisting the quote, unquote inevitability of that future. And to be clear, that’s me. I’m one of those people." (00:46)
• The debate often loses focus on systemic issues, becoming a battle over whether individuals are "bad people" for using AI tools like ChatGPT.

2. Meet Dr. Fatima Abd Al Rahman (04:18–06:01)

• Dr. Fatima shares her journey: she left academia for science and tech communication on YouTube after becoming "kind of unsurprisingly disillusioned with the field."
• Her channel sits at the intersection of science, tech, society, politics, and ethics.

3. The Reactionary Turn in Anti-AI Movements (06:01–07:00)

• Fatima has deep-seated, pre-ChatGPT criticisms of Big AI, touching on IP, labor, environmental, and ethical concerns.
• She expresses surprise at how, even among critics, "hard lines and black and white ways" of thinking are "alienating," especially when solidarity and education are most needed.
• KEY QUOTE: "Telling people they're stupid and lazy because they used an LLM once isn't going to make them stop." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (05:52)

4. A Personal Story: The Appeal (and Pitfall) of AI Chatbots for Emotional Support (06:18–10:35)

• Fatima describes how she turned to ChatGPT during a harrowing eviction scare and overwhelming anxiety: "I would literally just use it for hours like this, trying to calm my anxiety. And it helped to a degree." (07:00)
• She acknowledges ChatGPT’s limited but very real utility for "processing my feelings."
• The turning point: A friend (who works in tech, but is anti-industry) sent her a meme about asking humans instead of LLMs. Fatima describes unexpectedly breaking down in tears over this simple joke, recognizing she'd "been ignoring... all the reasons that I knew from before to not use it" (08:57).
• This led not to further shaming, but to reevaluating her dependence through empathy: "The thing that did that wasn’t somebody lecturing me... it was somebody being empathetic." (10:21)

5. Why Shaming Falls Flat: Systems, Not Individuals (12:10–14:27)

• The left's usual embrace of systemic thinking has broken down, replaced by an "un-nuanced perspective" that sees AI as inherently evil and those who touch it as tainted.
• KEY QUOTE: "I don't even know how actionable a perspective that is... It's integrated into so many systems, whether you notice it or not, it could be forced upon you in your workplace... People who you love are probably using it." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (13:05)
• The absolute stance ("no AI, ever") misses actionable opportunities, for example: "Saying ChatGPT specifically, OpenAI specifically is a company we want to avoid and not support for XYZ reasons. That's actionable. But saying no AI is not very actionable." (14:27)
• Instead, Fatima encourages strategies like regulation, boycotts targeting specific companies, and nuanced engagement.

6. The Importance of Staying in the Conversation (15:45–16:44)

• Fatima continues: "If there aren’t people who are critical of these technologies engaged in these conversations [about regulation], then... we’re ceding the future of AI to the worst people." (15:35)
• She emphasizes not ceding the field to Silicon Valley elites: "I'd rather... people with progressive values, people on the left, help guide what it becomes, rather than just allow, like the Elon Musks and the Sam Altmans to decide what happens with it." (16:01)

7. Techno-Optimism and Disconnect (16:44–18:41)

• They discuss the technocratic ideology—more machines equals progress—which often doesn't hold up to scrutiny and excludes lived experiences.
• Notable exchange:
  • Devin: "Mark Zuckerberg has no friends. So like, the idea that he's the one designing a future for friendship is like actually like making our future for us and we don't even want it." (18:15–18:22)

8. Can Pushback Work? Regulation and Local Wins (18:57–21:49)

• Fatima sees more hope at the local level, where communities have ousted pro-AI/data center officials: "That is a real lever for change that I see."
• Analogy to voting rights: "They wouldn't be trying so hard to get us not to vote if voting didn't have an impact." (21:12)
• Takeaway: Companies wouldn’t push so hard to win public approval if public desire was irrelevant.

9. Closing: Applying Harm Reduction Principles (22:18–25:07)

• Fatima notes a gap in interpersonal guidance: "What I see in the anti AI movement is the kind of systemic pushback... but nothing about how to engage interpersonally and with the ubiquity of these LLMs" (22:18)
• Criticizing/shunning individual users makes things worse. She draws an analogy to harm reduction for substance use/sex ed: "There's just years and years and years of research showing that if you tell somebody this thing is harmful, don't touch it... those tactics don't work. They make the problem worse. They make people hide their use, they make people ashamed. Shame does not generally motivate people out of a behavior." (23:30)
• KEY QUOTE: "The biggest thing I was trying to do with this video was...to introduce a principled, politically consistent, actionable way to engage with people around us with everything that's going on in the current state of the world." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (24:40)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Telling people they're stupid and lazy because they used an LLM once isn't going to make them stop." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (05:52)
• "The thing that did that wasn’t somebody lecturing me... it was somebody being empathetic." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (10:21)
• "You can say things about boycotts and I’m not against boycotts… But saying no AI is not very actionable." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (14:27)
• "If there aren’t people who are critical of these technologies engaged in these conversations… we’re ceding the future of AI to the worst people." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (15:35)
• "Mark Zuckerberg has no friends. So like, the idea that he’s the one designing a future for friendship is… like actually like making our future for us and we don't even want it." – Devin Maroney (18:22)
• "There’s just years and years and years of research showing that if you tell somebody this thing is harmful... those tactics don’t work." – Fatima Abd Al Rahman (23:30)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Main theme & framing: 00:46–01:21
• Fatima’s background: 04:18–05:32
• Personal story about LLM use: 06:18–10:21
• Consequences of shaming & empathy as an alternative: 10:21–12:10
• Breakdown of left’s nuanced approach: 12:10–14:27
• Regulation vs. blanket rejection: 14:27–16:44
• The case for engagement and presence in tech conversations: 16:44–18:41
• Local political pushback and analogy to voting: 18:57–21:49
• Harm reduction, shame vs. support: 22:18–25:07

---

Conclusion

Dr. Fatima Abd Al Rahman’s core message: Shaming individual AI users is not just ineffective—it’s counterproductive. People turn to these tools for real needs, sometimes during crises. The anti-AI movement, if it wants to be effective and consistent with progressive principles, needs to apply harm reduction strategies—support and educate, rather than shame and ostracize. In the end, the podcast leaves listeners with a call for nuance, solidarity, and actionable engagement, both systemic and interpersonal, in the era of ubiquitous AI.

Akilah Hughes closes by acknowledging her own uncertainty and encourages listeners to join the conversation—a conversation that isn’t going away.

---

For more, find Dr. Fatima’s video "How to Anti AI Better" via her YouTube (linked in show notes).

Transcript

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Introducing Meta Glasses. Hey, Meta, any last minute tables for two tonight?

[Akilah Hughes]

Sure.

[Meta (AI Assistant)]

There's a great Italian restaurant 15 minutes away.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Hey, Meta, where's the nearest flower shop?

[Meta (AI Assistant)]

Five minutes away, straight down Broadway, past the bodega. Their lilies are trending on Instagram. Just saying.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, Meta, am I forgetting anything else?

[Meta (AI Assistant)]

How about setting a calendar reminder for next year?

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Meta Glasses available in more than 20 styles in the current state of the world, regardless of what that's going to look like in the future, whether AI becomes good or it destroys the world or it disappears entirely, like, who knows? But for where we are right now, I wanted people to have a guide for how to be a person in this context.

[Akilah Hughes]

Since the release of ChatGPT and the advent of mainstream AI chatbots, some pretty clear battle lines have formed. On one side, we have the tech bro billionaires who are trying to usher in a future that even, even they feel could be shaky at best.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, I think AI will probably like, most likely sort of lead to the end of the world, but in the meantime, there will be great companies created with serious machine learning. It is conceivable that AI could take control and reach a point where you couldn't turn it off. And it would be making decisions for people.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Absolutely.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

No, that's definitely where things are headed for.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Sure.

[Akilah Hughes]

Consequences be damned. And on the other side, we have people who are resisting the quote, unquote inevitability of that future. And to be clear, that's me. I'm one of those people. And for good reason. It's another energy intensive technology that's begging for more giant data centers across the country and across the world. It could be a real threat to jobs, and it has the potential to concentrate even more power and wealth into the hands of very few. Also, it just doesn't really work that well. But the more I looked at the conversation around AI, the more I started wondering, are we even arguing about the same thing? Because a lot of the debate seems focused on individual people using AI, like whether or not you're a bad person if you use ChatGPT. I wonder if we're spending too much time arguing about the users and losing sight of the systems. So I called YouTube creator Dr. Fatima because she made a video that caught my attention called how to Anti AI Better. And I wanted to talk with her about it. She's someone who seems equally frustrated with both the AI hype machine and some of the ways people are pushing back against it. It was an interesting conversation and frankly, I'm not totally sure. If I'm on board with everything we talked about, but let me know what in the comments. I'm Akilah Hughes and this is. How is this better?

[Devin Maroney]

I'm familiar with your work, but if you could just introduce yourself what you do, you know, your YouTube channel and what you talk about.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah, of course. So my name is Fatima Abd Al Rahman. I have a YouTube channel. I used to be an astrophysicist. I have a PhD in astrophysics and used to do that kind of work. And after getting extremely and kind of unsurprisingly disillusioned with the field, I kind of transitioned into the more social side of physics. So things like physics education and science and technology studies, which is kind of trying to understand how science and society interact and things like that. And I was, I was working in that field for a few years and at some point I decided to make a YouTube channel because I thought I was learning so many interesting things that were actually potentially relevant to normal people outside of academia. And, you know, when you're an academic, you spend years writing a paper that three other people in your specific subfield will read. And I just wanted to kind of break out of that. So I started this YouTube channel about four years ago. I talk about those kinds of topics. So things that are the intersection between science and, or technology and society, be it politics, philosophy, history, education, whatever. So that's what I make videos about. And I do that full time now because the. The government stopped funding my research last year. So.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah. Wow. I am really sorry the government not doing its best work right now.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah, it's. It's a whole thing.

[Akilah Hughes]

A whole thing to be sure. So I asked Fatima to lay out her thesis and how she thinks the anti AI movement can be more effective.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

So obviously AI is a very, very polarizing topic. Right. And it's been interesting to see kind of how people have arranged themselves in reaction to it becoming so prominent.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

For years I have been very, very, very critical of the big AI companies and a lot of aspects of things like LLMs. Again, as somebody who studies science and technology in society and has spent time working in tech ethics, for example, these are critiques I've known about, about intellectual property and environmental impact and labor issues and just all these things. Like I've been thinking about these before ChatGPT was on the market. Right. So I very much am aligned with people who are critical of, say, OpenAI. Sam Altman, public facing LLMs, all these things. But as AI kind of became a more like mainstream thing and Everybody's kind of picking aside and talking about it. I was surprised at how I'm like, kind of hesitant to use this word, but how reactionary. A lot of the anti AI takes were. Like, this is a big issue and it's affecting all of us in a lot of really significant ways. But, you know, for some reason, this specific topic has just made so many people kind of draw these really hard lines and see things in really black and white ways that I think are alienating. Right. In a time where we need to be trying to build solidarity and, like, educating each other and helping each other and supporting each other, when all of these forces, especially like, from tech, are trying to kind of atomize us further. Telling people they're stupid and lazy because they used an LLM once isn't going to make them stop.

[Akilah Hughes]

And if you've had anti AI takes, as I have, you may have started to feel yourself have a reaction to some of that. But you should know that her basis for this is informed, at least in part, by her own experience. I asked her to share her own story about using AI chatbots.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

So a year and a half ago, I finally caved it. I'm like, okay, I'm going to use ChatGPT for this thing. And it helped me, and that was great. But something else that happened is I started using it because I was getting evicted. Right? That's what I used it to help me with. Getting evicted is scary. Like, even though I didn't have to leave eventually, there was like a span of maybe 10 days that I just didn't know if I was going to get kicked out of my house or not and whether I would be able to find somewhere else to live quickly. And it was just the first time I'd ever experienced something like that. For anybody who has, you know how destabilizing it is.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

And I was just experiencing anxiety like I'd never experienced in my life, and it was so, so bad. And it was also like Thanksgiving when this was initially happening. So, like, everybody I knew was out of town. So it wasn't even a situation where I could, like, hit somebody up because everybody was, like, with their families for the holiday. So I started using ChatGPT for my anxiety. You know, first. First I was using it to, like, analyze the legal document. And then I'm like, can you convince me that I'm in the legal right right now? Which is not something you should ask. Don't ever ask an alum to convince you of something that is a bad because it will. It Doesn matter if it's true or not. They will. They'll do it anyways. But I'm like, can you, like, convince me that I have a solid case? And then I was like, you know, can you just tell me that I'm going to be okay? Like, I'm so anxious and I don't know what to do. And I would literally just use it for hours like this, trying to calm my anxiety. And it helped to a degree. And I think a lot of people who use ChatGPT or LLMs for therapy will, you know, know that. And the people who tell them there's no use to it, they're like, but it makes me feel better. And that is a function, right? It might not be the way of getting that need met. It might have whatever other issues associated with it, like from the sycophancy, but it does. It is. Does feel like it's helping me, and I'm going to do the thing that feels like it's helping me. So I was using it in that way for a while. And, you know, first it was just for the anxiety, for the housing stuff, but then I'm like, wow, this is so good for, like, processing my feelings. I'm going to use it for other stuff. And I just really, really got into the habit of it. And I had told some of my friends, because most of my friends aren't the kind of people who are, like, super reactionary about it. So I didn't feel, like, weird about it. I'm like, oh, I. This was happening. So I asked ChatGPT, or like, oh, you. You should just ask ChatGPT for this thing, because it helped me with that. So my friends knew that I was using it like this. And at one point, one of my friends who actually does work in tech, very much the quintessential person who works for a tech company who vehemently disagrees with the entire ethos of the tech industry. And I'm glad that that person is there, right? She, like, sent me this little meme, and it's like a cat. And it's like, don't, like, ask ChatGPT. Ask me, because I can give you misinformation too, but I'm also beautiful or something like that. Yeah, I have it in the video. It was just like a corny little meme, right? And, like, not even with any context, she just, like, sends it to me one day when I tell you that this stupid little meme, like, made me cry because, I don't know, like, I think I had been ignoring in my Falling into using ChatGPT, all the reasons that I knew from before to not use it and I'm just like justifying it because I, I need the help or whatever, and had also convinced myself that it was better to ask an LLM instead of just like texting a friend or calling someone up or something. Which are options. Right? Yeah, that was like my, it wasn't my rock bottom. It was kind of my turning point. Yeah, it was my point of which I'm like, okay, I need to stop this. I need to do something differently than what I'm doing. And it like took a little bit of time to like wean off of it. But I, I can say now I do not use ChatGPT or any LLM for emotional support anymore.

[Devin Maroney]

Yes, that's right.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

And the reason that happened, the reason I went from a person who was using this in a way that was harming me and also whatever broader like, impacts that using ChatGPT has to somebody who is not using it. Right, which is ostensibly the goal of the anti AI movement, to move people from using it to not using it. Or a goal at least. And the thing that did that wasn't somebody lecturing me. It wasn't somebody telling me about all the harms. It wasn't somebody telling me that I'm lazy and stupid. It wasn't somebody telling me that AI is cringe or that I'm boiling the oceans or anything like that. It was somebody being empathetic.

[Akilah Hughes]

When we come back, more of my conversation with Dr. Fatima on how we can perhaps anti AI better. There are things in life that you don't want to be transparent, like your swimsuit or your search history. But when it comes to your wireless bill, transparency is everything. That's why Mint Mobile's wireless plans have no gimmicks and no gotchas. Just high speed data and reliable coverage on the T Mobile 5G network. And right now, all plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with Premium Wireless for 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number. Choose from 3, 6 or 12 month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile, it's so easy. Sign up online and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. To get your new wireless Plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com courier that's mintmobile.com courier Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com courier that's it. There is no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required $15 per month. Equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term Only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot capable. Device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. CementMobile.com can you talk a little bit

[Devin Maroney]

about that breakdown of nuance on the left? Because I do think that this is sort of like a marker of the time we live in where like I think historically, like you said, we talk about systems on the left, we talk about broader solutions, we tend to see things in a more nuanced lens. And I do think that this has

[Akilah Hughes]

become almost a political rallying cry.

[Devin Maroney]

And with AI's popularity waning, it seems like maybe a short sighted win for the left to be so anti AI. And so I guess if you talk a little bit about that lack of nuance, but also what is the benefit in your eyes of having that real conversation about, you know, if there are benefits to AI and what those look like and how we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah. So the kind of unnuanced perspective that I see that's just like AI is evil. Don't touch it, shun anyone who touches it. I don't even know how like actionable a perspective that is. Right.

[Devin Maroney]

People are using it.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

It's integrated into so many systems, whether you notice it or not, it could be forced upon you in your workplace. Like people will be using it around you. People who you know are using, people who you love are probably using it. A perspective I often hear is like, well, I'm so anti AI and behaving in this way and just completely zero tolerance about it because I want it to go away. I don't want to accept it into our society, but I don't think that does anything. I don't think some percentage of the population refusing to engage with something makes it go away. The military develops plenty of software and technology that they will use to bad ends regardless of whether or not normal people also use it.

[Devin Maroney]

Right, That's a good point. Like we are in a war where they're actively using AI models. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's a good point. Like what does it change?

[Akilah Hughes]

It doesn't make it go away.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

It doesn't make it go away. Like you can, you can say things about like boycotts and I'm not against boycotts like it. I think the, like post that whole thing with the Pentagon and anthropic, like that whole thing and then Chachi PT being like, oh, we'll do whatever you want.

[Devin Maroney]

Right, exactly.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

That brought on like a huge, like movement of people, like abandoning ChatGPT. And I think that's great. Like, I think that's excellent.

[Devin Maroney]

Yes.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

I often encourage people to not use ChatGPT and potentially check out like a less harmful LLM if they must use one that's actionable. Saying like ChatGPT specifically, OpenAI specifically is a company we want to avoid and not support for XYZ reasons. That's actionable. Yeah, but saying no AI is not very actionable. What's more, it doesn't give you a way to engage with people around you who are using it, which is who knows what the future will be, but it is the reality now. Right. Like, to just reject it outright, I think misses a lot of the opportunities to reduce the harm that it's causing. For example, it exists now and regulation is a potential avenue for making its harms not as bad. Whether that's taxation of AI companies that goes towards the industries that it might have, like the arts or something or whatever kind of guardrails on public facing LLMs, regulations on context, like professional context where it's allowed to be used or not all those things. If there aren't people who are critical of these technologies engaged in these conversations that concede that it currently exists, then to me that feels like we're ceding the future of AI to the worst people.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah. Like, to not be a part of the conversation isn't going to make it go away. It just allows the people who love it and the people who want it to ruin our lives and exploit us and all this stuff and benefit from that, they're going to dictate the terms of it.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

And like I've seen, for example, like some people being like, oh, anybody who works in tech is brainwashed and evil. Right. I have friends who work in tech. This is just patently not the case. There are a lot of people who work in tech that are very critical of tech and how the industry is just kind of playing out as a whole. And I'm glad those people are there. We need people with values like us to be a part of those conversations. Because again, just not engaging with it doesn't make it Go away. And I'd rather, you know, people with progressive values, people on the left, help guide what it becomes, rather than just allow, like the Elon Musk and the Sam Altmans to decide what happens with it.

[Devin Maroney]

Speaking of, it's not surprising to me, given the sort of interviews that they do, that they created an LLM that is so sycophantic, that says everything they do is great, that has a hard time disagreeing.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Right.

[Devin Maroney]

Of course. Then, like, they're getting high on their own supply is what it looks like to me. It's like, oh, yeah, you're a drug dealer and you're, you're fucking housing those drugs, right? And you're like, guys, you're gonna love it. But it's like, to your point, like, if they can't paint us a picture of a positive future, then of course it's no wonder that the kids coming out of college are. I don't want that future. That future sounds absolutely dogshit.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Right? And like, that feels so obvious, but I feel like in tech there's something of this. I actually have a different video where I talk about this. There's something of an ideology that's like, more technology and like, more advancement and more like logic and kind of like rationale, rational order will be better. We don't need to figure out the details of how it will be better, but it just categorically is good to have more powerful machines because historically, you know, industrialization happened and that made whatever benefits to the world also introduced problems with it, but it brought whatever advances. Therefore, advancement is categorically beneficial for society. And like, I know people personally who think like this. Right. And it can be very frustrating to engage with somebody whose like, sense of society is so disconnected from like, actual people's experiences and like.

[Devin Maroney]

Right. I mean, like, Mark Zuckerberg has no friends. So like, the idea that he's the one designing a future for friendship is

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

like actually like making our future for us and we don't even want it. Yeah, but like, that is a very pervasive way of thinking in tech. And it's often like, just not questioned. Right?

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah, it lacks all self awareness. It's like, oh, yeah, no, this is a good idea because like, the richest guy in the room said so.

[Akilah Hughes]

And given that the Internet has been largely shaped by these men, and we the people don't seem to have much agency over the future of the Internet, I wanted to know, perhaps naively, if they'll stop and consider the pushback or if legislators can catch up and make sure. The AI systems being built will work for us and not just for them.

[Devin Maroney]

Is there a world where collective pushback slows the engine? Like, you know, the trains left the station. So, like, do you think these, these very rich Silicon Valley folks are going to take a step back and consider the loud voice of people saying, what you're doing right now is not working for us?

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

I don't know that the tech guys are going to take a step back, but I think within, for example, governments, politicians can be swayed on this. And there have been generally, unlike the local, like city and state levels, we haven't seen some, like the federal government re AI currently is.

[Devin Maroney]

It doesn't exist right now.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

It's not going in a helpful direction. Like Trump's throwing all his weight behind it. Really. And beyond that, like, OpenAI is like his biggest donor last year and yeah, Elon Musk was his like, sidekick for the better part of last year.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah, it's the entire marketing strategy is the memes you can make with AI. So like you can't divest now.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

So tech and the federal government are like this. However, on more local scales, there have been cities that have just elected out their pro AI, pro data center officials. That's happened and that's an outcome of public opinion. Right. Like people get upset about the impacts of AI or what data centers are doing to their communities. They talk to each other and they organize and they campaign and then they, you know, elect somebody who aligns with their values, who will pass into law things that will help them. That is a real lever for change that I see. It is distressing that that potential doesn't seem very possible at present moment on the federal level.

[Devin Maroney]

Right.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Because that matters a lot too. But it's not nothing. Something I often tell myself when I'm trying to like, evaluate whether like X action has any impact or if it's worthwhile or we, we have any control over the situation. There wouldn't be like pushback to the pushback if it didn't matter. If that makes sense.

[Devin Maroney]

That's a really good point. They are responding. Yeah.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Like to try to explain what I mean by analogy, like, a lot of people think voting doesn't matter and I certainly don't think voting will solve all of this country's problems.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah, they haven't.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

However, if voting didn't matter at all, I don't think Republicans would be so determined to push through so many disenfranchising laws like the voter, the ID stuff and like gerrymandering and all these things.

[Devin Maroney]

Yeah.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

They wouldn't be trying so hard to get us not to vote if voting didn't have an impact.

[Devin Maroney]

That's right.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Similarly, I don't think AI companies and the marketing and all the stuff around it would be trying to push what they want on us so aggressively if our desires didn't matter.

[Devin Maroney]

That's exactly right. They're trying to figure out ways for it to work for everyone. And you can just tell that, like, even if they're on their back foot right now, like, that is sort of the end game, is like, you're gonna use it. So figure it out.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

Yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

To wrap things up, I wanted to get back to Fatima's motivation for making her video how to Anti AI Better. She said something that I found interesting, given the conversation around tech and AI presenting new challenges to our ability to relate to one another. Fatima says we center people in the conversation.

[Fatima Abd Al Rahman]

What I see in the anti AI movement is the kind of systemic pushback, right. How to engage with the construction of data centers or these big companies, but nothing about how to engage interpersonally and with the ubiquity of these LLMs. Most people use LLMs. That's just the statistics. Most people are using them. You have people in your life who are using them. Saying, don't touch AI doesn't give you any direction on how to engage with the people who are. And I'm so worried, and I see this a lot, again, both in my own life and online, that in the absence of any kind of principled way of engaging with people who think differently on. On this topic, the tendency is just to cut people off, like to shun people, to ostracize. Whether that's because people think it'll be effective or just out of discomfort, like, oh, AI feels gross. To me, it's cringe. I don't want to engage with somebody who uses it. And to me, that's not consistent. That's not consistent with the bigger fight against the harms of this technology. Because as I talk about in my video, in a lot of cases, that kind of like shunning and ostracization makes things worse. The analogy I use in the video is like, harm reduction for things like substance use and like sex education and stuff like that. There's just years and years and years of research showing that if you tell somebody this thing is harmful, don't touch it, don't do it, say no to drugs, don't have sex before marriage. Like, those tactics don't work. They make the problem worse. They make people hide their use, they make people ashamed. Shame does not generally motivate people out of a behavior. It just kind of makes it like more like embedded and have all these other negative feelings associated with it. So you're not going to like seek help or be open about it or seek alternatives, right? So to me, you know, this concept of harm reduction is a very like leftist idea, right? Things like needle exchanges and comprehensive sex ed. That, that is a left thing, that's a progressive thing. And it and it just hasn't made sense to me. Why when it comes to AI, on the systemic level, the analysis seems sound, but on the interpersonal level, it just kind of breaks down in a way that's like not consistent. And so I guess that's maybe what the biggest thing I was trying to do with this video was, was to introduce a principled, politically consistent, actionable way to engage with people around us with everything that's going on in the current state of the world, regardless of what that's going to look like in the future. Whether AI becomes good or it destroys the world or it disappears entirely. Like who knows, who knows? But for where we are right now, I wanted people to have a guide for how to be a person in this context.

[Akilah Hughes]

That's Dr. Fatimah. You can find her YouTube channel and her video how to Anti AI Better Linked in the description. And as for me, I'm still not totally sure where I land on all of this. So let me know what you think. I'll check out your comments and who knows, maybe I'll shout em out in a future episode. Because one thing I'm sure we all probably agree on, the AI conversation isn't going away anytime soon. I'm Akilah Hughes, and this is How Is this Better? How Is this Better? Is a production of Courier. It's written and hosted by me, Akilah Hughes. It is produced by Devin Maroney. Video editing is by Shane Verkus. The rest of the team at Courier includes Marianne Kuga, Sam Hollows, and Charlotte Robertson. Please subscribe to follow How Is this Better? On all the platforms, YouTube, Apple, podcasts, Spotify, etc. And tell someone about your favorite episodes. If you're interested in sponsoring episodes or giving us products to try and try to sell, reach out to advertiseuriernewsroom.com thanks for listening and until next time, see ya.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Meta (AI Assistant)]

of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month Plan required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.