How Mormons Captured Pop Culture

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "How Mormons Captured Pop Culture"

How Is This Better? – Hosted by Akilah Hughes (COURIER)
April 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Akilah Hughes investigates the surprising domination of Mormon (LDS) aesthetics and values in modern pop culture. She explores how Mormon women have become influential internet personalities and how the church’s history of control, conformity, and media-savvy moneyed interests have paved the way for this phenomenon. With insights from journalist Bridget Reed and ex-Mormon podcaster Shalice Anzola, Akilah dissects both the allure and the contradictions of this new “Mormon moment” and asks: is this trend pushing us in a better direction, or simply rebranding old, repressive patterns?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mormonism: A Brief, Complicated History

• Akilah Hughes contextualizes the LDS Church’s beginnings, power struggles, and history of controversial policies regarding race and polygamy.

• Main Points:

  • Joseph Smith’s founding vision in 1820 and the official 1830 formation.
  • Origins involving “golden plates” and “magic rocks”—details that even church critics acknowledge are official history.
  • The nickname “Mormons” was imposed by outsiders, and the church has spent two centuries trying to rebrand as “LDS.”
  • Early church exhibited classic “high control” behaviors: leader with direct access to God, isolation from outsiders, severe punishment for dissent.
  • Polygamy’s rise and secret practice, later made public; ultimately abandoned only under government threat in 1890 ([02:20]).
  • Quote:
    “It’s funny how revelation tends to arrive right when the alternative is losing everything.” — Akilah Hughes ([03:52])
  • The church banned Black men from the priesthood and temple rites for 126 years, changed under social and civil rights pressures in 1978.

• Memorable moment:

  • Akilah’s summary of the church’s racial reversal:
    “I think they probably could have written more than a substack about their institutional racism, but that’s neither here nor there.” — Akilah Hughes ([04:52])

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2. Pop Culture’s Changing Mormon Archetype

• Akilah charts how Mormonism’s pop culture representation evolved from patriarchal polygamists to internet-savvy women.
  • "For decades, the pop culture image of Mormon men was either polygamist, patriarch, or earnest missionary. But the Internet broke that open." ([05:42])
  • The success of South Park’s “All About Mormons” and the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon” led to public debate and even strategic church ad buys lampooning themselves ([05:20]).
  • Mitt Romney’s presidential run as a cultural touchstone.

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3. The Rise of Mormon Women Influencers (“MomTok”)

• Guest: Bridget Reed, New York Magazine features writer
• Main Insights:
  • Pandemic habits normalized “watching people inside their homes,” fueling demand for mom-fluencer content ([06:50]).
  • “Mormon moms were doing this long before everybody else.” — Bridget Reed ([07:19])
  • The homesteading, big-family, modest-fashion trend is driven by white Mormon women but is now monetized by a broader cohort.
  • Influencer “gold rush”: Talent agencies report all their Utah clients (ex-, semi-, or current Mormon women) earn at least $300,000 per year ([11:14]).
• Quote:
  • “The world of influencing has just boomed... Mormon moms were doing this long before everybody else.” — Bridget Reed ([06:51])
  • “We’re all becoming Utah.” — Akilah Hughes ([11:50])

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4. Internet, Tech, and Mormon Cultural Power

• Bridget Reed exposes the under-explored Mormon role in shaping the modern internet:
  • University of Utah helped develop ARPANET.
  • Mormon technologists pioneered the personal computer, WordPerfect, and major companies like Pixar and Adobe; deeply involved in Ancestry.com for religious genealogical reasons.
  • Significant investments in major tech firms and a concentration of SaaS companies in Utah ([13:47]).
• Notable Discussion:
  • The LDS cosmology (eternal families, ascension) fits with transhumanist tech; some Mormon transhumanists foresee “uploading” into “the cloud” as religious fulfillment ([14:19]).
• Quotes:
  • “You are really—the currency in Mormonism…is that you are part of this highly connected network where you’re constantly demonstrating that you deserve to be there. That translates to a lot of really high performing Mormons.” — Bridget Reed ([15:12])
  • “We’ve normalized that type of system and just sort of exported it again in an environment where there’s all kinds of people in the system, but it’s highly controlled by a small group of, frankly, men.” — Bridget Reed ([16:09])

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5. Surveillance, Judgment, and Performance—Religion vs. Social Media

• Parallel: Social media’s pressures to perform, conform, and surveil mirror the church’s internal dynamics ([15:10]–[16:37]).
  • Both institutions: hierarchical, networked, oligarchic, prone to repressive conformity.
• Memorable moment:
  • “You succeed on The Internet by high engagement and constant performance. And so even if we’re not doing that as Mormons…we all have kind of come around to this idea that performing one’s identity constantly...is normal.” — Bridget Reed ([15:47])

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6. Critical Perspective: Ex-Mormon Experience

• Guest: Shalice Anzola, host of the "Cults to Consciousness" podcast

• Personal Story:

  • Grew up in LDS church believing it was “the one true religion.”
  • Her first doubts began when asked to explain beliefs to outsiders—“So where are the plates now?”—and realizing how implausible some claims seemed ([20:18]).
  • LDS is a “high control group”; intense conformity and surveillance of behavior affect every aspect of life ([18:28]).
  • Struggled with guilt, shame, and church-imposed rituals of repentance after “sins” like oral sex—punishments and shaming that made her question church values ([23:05]–[24:46]).

• Quotes:

  • “Your entire life, your entire being, all of your choices were filtered through: is this what I should be doing?” — Shalice Anzola ([18:28])
  • “What if I’m suffering for no reason? What if the church is not what they say they are?... Oh, it’s all made up.” — Shalice Anzola ([24:50])

• Nuanced Impacts:

  • The pop cultural “Mormon moment” platforms progressive-seeming “cherry picker” members, who ignore or sidestep the stricter, repressive elements.
  • Critique: This risks misleading outsiders and “in” members about what the church actually is ([26:12]).
  • Quote:
    “It’s also very misleading for the general public thinking that this is what Mormonism is and it’s harmful for people who are ‘in’, because they’re thinking, ‘Oh can I be this progressive?’” — Shalice Anzola ([27:32])

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7. Broader Lessons: High Control Groups & Pop Culture

• Anzola’s experience running her deprogramming podcast:
  • Parallels between cults, high-control religions, self-help and yoga cults ([29:00]).
  • Stigma: “How stupid could you be to fall for a cult?”—misses how these systems operate ([29:18]).
  • Comment:
    “No one joins a cult. They join something that makes them feel elevated… It just gets deeper and deeper until the cost of leaving is so high that you just stay or you lose everything.” — Shalice Anzola ([29:22])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Akilah Hughes:
  “Mormons are absolutely everywhere… there is a vested moneyed interest in making us care about aesthetics, values, and, they hope, belief in their causes.” ([00:00])

• Bridget Reed:
  “We’ve now almost decided as a country that what they’re doing—primarily being moms and wives at home—is worthwhile and interesting and worthy of watching.” ([07:49])

• Akilah Hughes:
  “It poisons the brand. More on the brand after a quick break.” ([08:34]) (Humorous transition)

• Bridget Reed:
  “We are calling it the Utah Singularity, because it’s like: why? Why are so many eyes on Utah?” ([11:28])

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Conclusion & Reflection

The episode concludes by suggesting that Mormonism’s newfound pop culture appeal is as much about America’s hunger for curated, performative wholesomeness as it is about the church’s unique, and often troubling, influence techniques. While Akilah respects the agency and entrepreneurialism of Mormon women influencers, she highlights the need to remain critical of movements—religious or otherwise—that promise a “better” way but ultimately perpetuate conformity, hierarchy, and control.

Closing Thought:

“You don't have to feel guilty for watching, but it's definitely not better than a liberated, equality-focused alternative.” — Akilah Hughes ([30:55])

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Quick Reference Timeline

• 00:00–05:50 – Historical context: The origins, power structure, and controversies of the LDS Church
• 05:53–11:28 – Pop culture evolution and the rise of MomTok; women as the new face of Mormon influence
• 11:29–16:28 – The “Utah Singularity,” Mormon dominance in tech, and parallels between social media/tech oligarchies and church hierarchy
• 16:29–18:09 – High performance, surveillance, and perfectionism as Mormon and digital currencies
• 18:10–25:50 – Shalice Anzola’s personal experience: growing up LDS, awakening to doubts and constraints, path to leaving the church
• 25:51–30:55 – Broader critique of cult-like systems, the dangers of platforming sanitized versions of high-control groups, emotional trauma of leaving

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Transcript

[A]

Mormons are absolutely everywhere. I mean, they're mostly still in Utah, but in terms of pop culture, they're the hottest commodity right now. And even if the sudden interest in an incredibly new conservative religion seems organic, well, it's not. There is a vested moneyed interest in making us care about aesthetics, values, and, they hope, belief in their causes. I'm Akilah Hughes and today on how is this Better? I wanted to talk to a report who investigated this pop culture push and an ex Mormon revealing the cultish nature of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. My aim isn't to quantify if one religion is superior to any other, but rather to see if the values they espouse are moving our culture in a better direction. Before we dive into the current wave of Mormonism and pop culture, I think it's important to get a primer on the history of the Mormon Church in a segment I like to call the Laptop I Use to Bring up old shit. In 1820, a 14 year old boy from upstate New York named Joseph Smith said God appeared to him in the woods and told him every existing church was wrong. Instead of taking this as a sign to ditch religion altogether, little Joey went ahead and started his own. By 1830, Smith had the Book of Mormon, which he claimed to have translated from golden plates, buried on a hill using a magic rock he put inside a hat. Now, this is not me editorializing. That is the official origin story. The church was formally organized on April 6, 1830 in upstate New York with a few dozen followers. The name Mormon Church wasn't even their idea. Some random outsiders called them that after the scripture, which is relevant because the church has spent two centuries trying to rebrand and it hasn't worked. If you say lds, everybody hears Mormon. Here's the part that doesn't get enough. The early Mormon Church hit every single marker we now associate with high control religious groupsone leader with direct access to God, whose revelations conveniently kept expanding his own power. Followers pressured to move away from family and existing communities. Members who questioned leadership publicly, including people who printed a newspaper criticizing Smith, who subsequently had their printing press destroyed by church order. Smith was arrested for that, and then he got assassinated in jail in 1844. Before he could stand trial, his successor, Brigham Young, realized the church was being run out of town again, loaded everyone up and moved everyone west to what is now Utah, which at the time was outside US jurisdiction entirely. Then Brigham Young publicly announced polygamy as a part of the church in 1852, a practice Smith had been doing privately since the 1830s, including, reportedly, with teenagers. While publicly denying it existed, his own wife, Emma, found out from his brother, not from him. At its peak, somewhere between 20 and 30% of Latter Day Saint families practiced plural marriage. Young had 55 children each. Shit in it, Cannon. And the Republican party of the time called polygamy and slavery Quote the twin relics of barbarism. The federal government eventually threatened to seize the church's temples, strip all members of civil rights, and block Utah from statehood. And wouldn't you know it, in 1890, the church president received a new revelation that polygamy should stop. It's funny how revelation tends to arrive right when the alternative is losing everything. Utah became a state six years later. Now the church and black people. From 1852 to 1978, 126 years, the LDS Church formally banned black men from the priesthood and black men and women from temple ceremonies. In Mormon theology, those temple ceremonies are essentially required by for the highest level of salvation. This is why you essentially never see black people in those khakis going door to door. Because for over a century, the church said no. In 1978, under pressure from the civil rights movement, the NAACP, and the awkward reality of a new temple in Brazil that black members helped fund but legally couldn't enter, church president Spencer Kimball received a revelation that the racist ban should be lifted. 35 years later, in 2013, the church quietly published an essay saying the old racial theology had been wrong. I think they probably could have written more than a substack about their institutional racism, but that's neither here nor there. None of this stopped the growth. The LDS Church now has over 17.5 million members worldwide, with more than half living outside the US And Canada. Pop culture has been wrestling with this for decades. In 2003, South park ran an episode dramatizing Smith's founding story with the recurring musical punchline of dum, dum, dum, dum, dummy. And then ended with the Mormon kid giving a speech about how everyone laughing at his religion while refusing to engage with it in good faith is the real problem. That episode ultimately paved the way for Matt Stone and Trey Parker to produce the Broadway musical the Book of Mormon in 2011. Nine Tonys over $1 billion. The church's official response was to buy ad space in the playbill. That said, the book is always better, which honestly is a more confident move than most institutions make when they're being roasted. And in 2012, Mitt Romney became the first Latter Day Saint to win a major party presidential nomination. Just 168 years after Joseph Smith ran for president and got killed in jail before the election. For decades, the pop culture image of Mormon men was either polygamist, patriarch, or earnest missionary. But the Internet broke that open. Mormon women on TikTok built an entire subculture called MomTok. It featured massive followings, aesthetic, homesteading, content, big families, modest fashion. And then the cracks started showing publicly. Which brings us to now, if the

[B]

first Mormon moment was about the canonical Mormon being a man, you know, the stars of the musical are missionaries, and they're sort of like just like Mitt Romney is characterized as. They're kind of like all American, buttoned up, you know, impossibly white people.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

And this time it's women. So sexy, hot mom fluencers, most of whom are super white. Although we have a little more diversity this time around. There are so many reasons why we're here right now. The biggest one is that the type of content that Mormon women helped pioneer on the Internet, which is influencing content that's focused on the home and motherhood, is now a huge market.

[A]

This is Bridget Reed, a features writer for New York magazine and the author of a piece from February that dives deep into the moment we're all feeling around us. And you may be a little surprised to find out what she believes is at the heart of this female Mormon moment.

[B]

We kind of traced how the pandemic really helped fuel this because it turned this content that was once more niche. Right. Like influencers. Pre pandemic, you were watching probably more fashion influencers or food. It was more like, this is my career and I'm an influencer and showing you kind of what I do with it. Now, post pandemic, everybody is used to watching people inside their homes because of that period of time where we were all stuck in the same place. So now you watch. Right. Like the world's biggest celebrities will give you content into, like, making snacks for their kids if they have kids. So that world of influencing has just boomed according to the people in the industry. So, like agents for creators, people on the side of beauty brands, you know, big home brands, talking about how they now go to these influencers for business rather than maybe a more brand name. Celebrity Mormon moms were doing this long before everybody else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now we're kind of seeing the fruits of their labor come to the fore, where we have now almost decided as a country that what they're doing, which is primarily being moms and wives at home, is worthwhile and interesting and worthy of watching. We're con. We're watching them now.

[A]

Yeah, like deeply aspirational content for like a certain group of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And making, I mean, huge waves. Obviously. There's mom talk. I saw a TikTok the other day that was somebody making a song saying, don't try to do dad talk. We don't care. No one cares about dad talk.

[B]

Yes, people seem really anti dad talk. Which is funny too, right? Especially given the first Mormons. It's like we're done with Mormon men. We don't care about you.

[A]

Yeah, right. Like it poisons the brand. More on the brand after a quick break. I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money. It turns out traditional big wireless carriers like keeping my money too. After years of overpaying for wireless, I'm pretty fed up with crazy high bills, bogus fees and free perks that actually cost me in the long run. I've seen the numbers now and I can tell you when I make the switch to Mint, I'll be saving a pretty significant amount each month. So stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists. To fix that, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at $15 a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text. It's all delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. So bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving. No long term contracts or hassle. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. So like I said, I've seen the numbers and it makes sense. If you want to keep more of your money, switch to Mint shop [e-mail] courier that's mintmobile.com courier upfront payment of $45 for three months. Five gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra cement Mobile for details. So Mom Talk is huge. It is the entire basis of the show. The secret lives of Mormonwives or at least the ju off point. And we'll obviously get to the cancellation of Taylor Frankie Paul, her being put in the spotlight, the show being put more in the spotlight. But can you talk more about the influencer group and how it started, this ripple effect for other Mormon influencers and you know the cast in Mormon in Mormon Wives.

[B]

Yeah, I, I went to Salt Lake City for the story and I interviewed Jesse from the Mormon Wives, Heather Gay From Salt Lake City Housewives. And I tried to interview Ballerina Farm. They did not make themselves available, but I did visit the farm.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There's attention on Mormon women specifically and Mormon influencers. So that's women who are showing the contour of their daily lives. Get ready with me, watch me, spend a day with me. That kind of stuff. Way beyond the people who are on our TVs, everybody is experiencing almost like a gold rush. You know, I talked to one talent agent who said none of her clients in Utah, many of whom are ex Mormon, some kind of Mormon and some currently Mormon, none of them are making less than $300,000, you know, this year. Yeah, they currently, you know, turning down brand deals in the five figures. Like everybody is experiencing this kind of boom.

[A]

Damn. I mean, beyond the obvious trad wife aesthetics, it's not hard to see why people would see a suddenly prospering group and be compelled to join them and their church.

[B]

And you can feel it on the ground. Like after Mom Talk got popular, there were all these little satellite mom talks, like group of girls doing the same dances and sort of trying to go viral. So, yeah, there really is this sort of fever pitch right now in Utah trying to capitalize on this, like, moment of like incredible attention in the office. We are calling it like the Utah Singularity because it's like, why. Why are so many eyes of Utah.

[A]

Yeah, we're all becoming Utah. And while I'm happy that these women have figured out how to monetize their small community, it's also a community built on some kind of unsavory values. The constant surveillance of neighbors and judgment based on church rules, which coincidentally feels absolutely made for the social media era.

[B]

You kind of have this push and pull where almost certainly the church disapproves. Yeah, maybe everyone except Ballerina Farm because she is the most traditionally gendered. She's providing the most traditionally gender divided household out of all of this. And. And very sort of explicitly talks about being a wife and a mother and explicitly talks about being a Mormon. So there's this push pull where like the church probably really this is not the. Their officially approved version of Mormonism, but they are certainly benefiting from this enormous attention on the Internet. And part of what you were referring to, Mormons and the LDS Church has a huge role in the tech industry that is really under examined that I was really interested to learn about in my reporting, which is that as long as we've had the Internet, Mormons have played a huge role in shaping it. The university of Utah was part of arpanet, which was the very first, you know, Cold war era government experiment that became the Internet as we know it. LDS professors and technologists invented the first personal computer. They invented WordPerfect, which is the first, you know, word processing system. Mormons helped start Pixar, Adobe. Then they moved into Ancestry.com and other genealogical records. Because Mormons believe they will ascend to heaven in their families and they want to grow those families as as large as they can and so they can actually baptize their dead family members. So genealogy is really important to Mormons. And now they've moved into like software as a service. There's all kinds of tech companies concentrated in Utah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

They also have tech investments and Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, Nvidia.

[A]

Great.

[B]

There are also, because of that cosmology in Mormonism about going to heaven in which the worthy will leave their earthly bodies and live forever in these kingdoms. AI Actually it really fits with that part of their sort of belief system. And there is a group of Mormon transhumanists who really believe that part of their religion is to ascend to a cloud.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And that the idea of uploading all of human knowledge to a, you know, cloud based system would be helpful for them, a lot of their. Right. Spirituality. So that all of that means that it's not entirely clear that the Mormon church leadership itself would. Would reject all of these eyeballs on Mormonism. But also everyone engaging in this Mormon conversation, like, because it's taking place on the Internet, the social Internet itself, they are benefiting from it no matter what.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I honestly am. Like, am I, am I to take that the cloud is actually their cloud?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds a little, it sounds a little tinfo ha. But what I do think I learned from reporting this piece is like Mormon women were particularly ready to become influencers because it is a religion like I described that involves a lot of surveillance and performance.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

You are really the currency in Mormonism as a social religion, a very networked religion, is that you are part of this highly connected network where you're constantly demonstrating that you deserve to be there. That translates to a lot of really high performing Mormons. Like, I think a lot of LDS members would say that that's what makes Mormons really hardworking, what makes them want to succeed is this really sort of type of perfectionism. But that also translates really well to being on the Internet, on the social Internet as we know it now, which is like a highly demanding system.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You succeed on The Internet by high engagement and by constant performance. And so even if we're not doing that as Mormons. Right. Like people watching Mormon wives aren't necessarily signing up for the church and paying the tithe of their income to the church. We all have kind of come around to this idea that performing one's identity constantly for plaudits from your social network is normal. We have normalized that type of system and just sort of exported it again in an environment where there's all kinds of people in the system, but it's highly controlled by a small group of, frankly, men. Right.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

You're describing the Mormon church, but we're also describing like Internet technology companies and this really oligarchic system. Both of them look like this.

[A]

They look pretty similar, right?

[B]

Yes, yes. So. So that is fascinating to think about that tinfoil hat kind of thinking that is systemic. Like I support, because it's not necessarily a conspiracy that Mormons have been plotting to make us all Mormon, but Mormons were ahead of the game in realizing that you could really monetize and, and control people effectively through these networked groups where we're all watching each other and like having fun. Watching each other and being watched.

[A]

Yes. And judging. I mean, there's a huge part of it that is like saying like, you absolutely are not good enough for X, Y or Z. Yeah. And like the entire conversation can be sort of held in that arena. Absolutely, absolutely.

[B]

There's a. The, the book, the 7 Habits of Successful People I think is what it's called. It's by this man, Franklin Covey, who I think is no longer alive. But Covey is like a big self help publishing company now. They are a huge LDS and Mormon family. So in Mormonism, Mormon heaven has three layer, three levels, depending on how good you are as a Mormon.

[A]

So you could get to heaven, but you don't get to heaven. Have you?

[B]

Yes, truly. It's like the whole. The religion is extremely, like I said, all about self improvement. It is a striving religion. Even the best, best, best Mormons need to constantly be thinking about how they can be even better. So to me, that part of the Internet, the sort of most high control, demanding impulses of like constantly reaffirming why you're there and your story and your narrative and like how you can be better, to me is very Mormon.

[A]

The controlling nature of the church is exactly why some Mormons have left the religion entirely. Shalice Anzola is an ex Mormon, a podcast host, and someone who has spent years studying what High control groups actually look like from the inside. She hosts the Cults to Consciousness podcast where she platforms survivors of a number of high control groups.

[C]

I grew up thinking that Mormonism was the right way and no other way was even remotely close. Or maybe they had some of the truth is what they would say. But we had all of the truth. And how lucky was I to be born into the one true religion on the planet, the restored gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And it was just all consuming. We do call it a high control group. Some people don't like to use the C word, cult. But I do think it fits all of the tiers of cult. Your entire life, your entire being, all of your choices were filtered through. Is this what I should be doing? Because as a. And you probably know there are lots of things that you have to follow, lots of rules. It's a lifestyle. It's not just a church you go to on Sundays. And so I didn't really understand how high control it was or how. I don't know if abnormal is the right word, but how different it was until I moved to Portland my senior year of high school. And first of all, I was the new kid. Second of all, I was the Mormon, because there weren't very many Mormons there. And I was like, guys, no, I'm normal, I swear.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, please, just let me fit in, do this right now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Fitting in is hard for all teenagers, but when a trip to the library debunks your entire worldview, that's kind of a whole new level.

[C]

I remember the first time something hit me, and it's because it was the first time I ever had to explain part of the church to somebody. And they were like, oh, yeah, so why Mormonism? I'm like, it's so cool because, you guys, you know, of the Bible. And they're like, yeah. And I go, well, we have an additional testament of Jesus Christ called the Book of Mormon. And it's. It follows these other people that came to the Americas, and it just gives us more information. If God gave you more information, wouldn't you want it?

[A]

Right?

[C]

And so logically, they're like, yeah, of course. And I was like, yeah. And Joseph Smith, he translated it and on from these golden plates that he found. And they're like, cool, where are the plates now? And then I was like, well, they took them back to heaven. And that in that moment, I was like, I can see how that does. Yeah. It doesn't sound very convincing.

[A]

It's just very convenient.

[C]

Very convenient. And so I was like, but anyway, you should check it out.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so it was the first time that I was really opened up to the awareness that what I believed was a little. How do I put this in a kind way? Because I don't think that Mormons are dumb. Please, like, let me be clear. I feel like we have just been programmed to believe a certain way, especially if you're born and raised in it and you just believe that that's the right way. But when people start to ask questions, that's when you go, huh, that does sound a little odd. And so my friend actually had this intervention with me in her car because she was trying to get me to be her version of Christianity with the big mega church and the pastors and the singers.

[A]

Great.

[C]

And the first time I went, I was like, is Jesus cool with concerts? Like, this is a concert for Jesus.

[A]

What exactly is this now? Yes. Jaleese graduated from high school, skirted BYU for fashion school in Las Vegas. And that's when she started to examine the church more critically.

[C]

Well, I think it came to a point where I got so frustrated that I was following all of the rules to the best of my ability. Aside from wearing tank tops and shorts in Vegas, because, my goodness.

[A]

Yeah, it's 150 degrees.

[C]

Yeah. And other than that, like the modesty thing, I was pretty much straight edge Mormon. I would literally speed as fast as I could. As soon as they let me leave Hard Rock, I would speed all the way to church, changing into my dress on the freeway and run into the last hour to make it. I would take out my second piercing. That was my other sin. Can only have one.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I would take it out, put it in my little car. They're like, this is Holder.

[A]

This misery.

[B]

I can't.

[C]

Like I'm sitting. Could it possibly by working on Sunday. They can't let. They cannot see my second piercing. And I would go to the last hour of church because back then there were three hours. And it came to a point where I was dating someone. We had been dating for about a year and I was still a virgin, which is a huge deal for me. I thought it was a big deal because let me tell you, I didn't want to be a version.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

At least, you know, like the carnal side of me, but the Mormon side of me was like, you wait till marriage, because that's a big. It's a synax to murder and Mormonism.

[A]

Jesus.

[C]

Yeah. It's a big deal. So my boyfriend Ended up convincing me to do oral. And I was like, are you sure? Yes.

[B]

Are you sure?

[C]

Yes. Okay. But, like, for reals, are you sure? Because that's still a sin. And immediately after, he's like, we need to go talk to the bishop. And I'm like, oh, my God.

[A]

As you can imagine, the bishop was less than forgiven, doling out a vast punishment that would have banned her from attending the temple, which wouldn't be so bad, except, as we stated before, a big part of the church is surveillance of members, so people would have noticed her absence and talked about it a lot.

[C]

So I basically just felt like scum of the earth. And I was like, first I stood up for myself, Then he pushed me back down again. I left crying. Call my mom was like, can you believe what he said? And I just feel so awful. I'm not spiritual enough. He told me this. Wow, you're not spiritual enough. He's told me I was about influence, that I should break up with my boyfriend because I was making him sin. And I'm just like, God, of course, always blaming the girl.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Like, you are the. Blame this person. Absolutely not. That doesn't make any sense.

[C]

Yeah. So basically, my mom, the gem of a person that she is, was like, what? That doesn't make any sense. You are more spiritual than anyone that I know. That bishop doesn't know what he's talking about. And it was just that little bit, that little seed of doubt that I was like, yeah, I am a good person.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're like, I have forgotten every other thing.

[C]

Still never tried a drop of alcohol, still never smoked weed, never smoked a cigarette. Everything else, Like, I was on the path, Right. And so that's why I was so upset. I'm like, what the hell, man? What the H E double hockey sticks.

[A]

I've been doing everything exactly like, so now I'm. Now I'm the bad one.

[C]

Yeah. And so that basically made me feel like, what if I'm suffering for no reason?

[B]

Well, just.

[C]

What if the church is not what they say they are? And I remembered what my friend had said to me in the car a couple years earlier. And I was like, I'm just gonna look into it because I'm really good at research, and I'm just. Just to double check that everything checks out, and it didn't. I was online for, like, 12 hours straight through the night, sun comes up and I'm just like, oh, it's all made up. I can't believe it. And that was the first moment of true Liberation, but also true fear of, wait, what do I do now? I have no safety net. I don't know how to get to heaven anymore. I don't know if heaven even exists anymore. I don't know who I am without this identity. And so it was just a long journey of unwinding the programming and also relearning who I was, who I wanted to be without the guardrails of this high control religion.

[A]

Leaving the church obviously wasn't easy. Rebuilding your entire identity in adulthood has to be tough. But now Chalice has a family and a hit podcast where she talks to other people who have been liberated from high control religions and cults. And at the same time, she's witnessing this pop culture moment that's not really reflecting the realities of Mormonism so much, much as it's creating it.

[C]

You know, it's interesting because on one hand, I'm like, I love that there are women in the church who feel comfortable enough and confident enough to go against the rules. Truly, I think it's great when people can cherry pick what makes sense to them, because high control groups are inherently harmful the more you double down and get fundamentalist about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And within Mormonism, it's a huge spectrum. So I interview people all the time. We've done over 300 interviews on our channel of cult survivors from every different background. And every single time, people are in the comments like, well, this religion saved my life, and it was beautiful and it was amazing. Okay, how closely did you follow the rules? Because if you did right, you probably wouldn't have had the same experience. And the same goes for Mormonism. You can have a very fundamentalist experience, even going back to the actual fundamentalists who are still practicing polygamy, or you can be one of those Mormons who casually practice, go to church on Sundays, still drink the occasional beer, don't really wear the garments, and they're okay with that. And they have a completely different experience. So the platforming of these women who are not wearing their garments, who are a little iffy on the rules, they find the loopholes and they're trying to present as progressive Mormons, that's great for them. It's also very misleading for the general public thinking that this is what Mormonism is and it's harmful for people who are in because they're thinking, oh, can I be this progressive?

[A]

And so even as Mormons and Mormonism are making bank, the work to show the truth about these religious structures continues. On her show, she's talked to loads of people who were brave enough to leave their religions and cults, even when it brought up uncomfortable feelings for her.

[C]

I was playing in the kiddie pool before and all of a sudden I'm in the depths of the ocean with every shark creature demon imaginable. And it was shocking. I was having panic attacks after interviews. It was mirroring my own childhood trauma. Yeah, not just religious trauma, but sexual abuse. And I was like, sorry, oh my gosh, how, how am I gonna handle this? Because I also knew that it's not our guest job to carry my feelings. And it's not their fault if I'm having a trigger because they're telling me their story. And I'm also not going to show them that I'm being triggered because I don't want them to retreat and be like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry, I'll stop. So I kind of learned, it's been almost four years now, how to dissociate enough and how to provide enough compassion to hold that sacred space for them and help them open up to the extent that they're comfortable. And I realized that they're all the same. It's almost like the same formula for every single group. No matter what part of the world you're in, no matter if it's a religion, no matter if it's a self help group, no matter if it's a meditation or yoga cult, they all operate in the same way. And that's why it's so important to talk about. Because everyone's first impression or instinct is to say, well, how stupid could you be to fall for a cult?

[A]

Right.

[C]

That's so it's. It flattens the reality completely.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

There are so many layers to it. There's so much nuance. Mind control. It's called mind control for a reason. You don't have the option of opting out when you start down this path. And unless you are aware of the signs and the red flags to look out for, you are very susceptible to landing yourself in a cult. Because no one joins a cult. They join something that makes them feel elevated, that maybe the mission is to save their family or to save the world. People join because they want good things for their. For themselves and for the world. And it just gets deeper and deeper and deeper until the cost of leaving is so high that you just stay or you lose everything. And so that's our mission on the channel, is to help people not only understand the cult pro programming and mentality, but to understand what people are going through when they leave so that they don't ask stupid questions like this. Yeah, they don't. So they don't say, like, for me, oh, you're ex Mormon, so how many moms do you have? Or tell me your traumas, basically, when they first meet me, that's what it comes off like, is like a sideshow. And that's what we're seeing in the media. Yeah, people want the sideshow. And they don't realize I could be talking to someone, oh, you left Mormonism. And if I say, oh, well, why did you leave? Or it's such a cult, huh? They could be thinking immediately, wow, yeah, I lost my mother because she says that I'm dead to her now.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Like, that's what could be going through someone's mind. And people don't realize that Mormonism is

[A]

so unlike evangelical Christianity in its aims and cultural attitudes. And while the drama on all of the Mormon shows and Boy Are There Many is entertaining and perfect for the reality TV moment we live in, the bigger picture is that pushing a culture to be homogenous, to be more conservative, to be repressive and aggressive just ain't it. And while I'm super glad people are mixing sodas on the national level, I'm not sure the future of the country or. Or the world is so limited. So all that to say you don't have to feel guilty for watching, but it's definitely not better than a liberated, equality, focused alternative. How is this Better? Is a production of Courier. It's written and hosted by me, Akilah Hughes. It is produced by Devin Maroney. Video editing is by Shane Verkus. The rest of the team at Curry Courier includes Marianne Kuga, Sam Hollows, and Charlotte Robertson. Please subscribe to follow how is this Better? On all the platforms, YouTube, Apple, podcasts, Spotify, etc. And tell someone about your favorite episodes. If you're interested in sponsoring episodes or giving us products to try and try to sell, reach out to advertiseurriornewsroom.com thanks for listening and until next time. See ya. Right now, news and politics are moving awfully fast. It can feel overwhelming, to say the least. I'm Evan Osnos, a staff writer for the New York on the Political Scene podcast. We slow things down to understand how power really operates in Washington, D.C. and what it means for you. My co hosts, Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser and I have decades of reporting experience, and every Friday we have conversations with insiders and experts to understand the forces remaking America. Join us Fridays for the Washington Roundtable from the Political scene on Mondays and Wednesdays. You can also hear insightful episodes from our New Yorker colleagues David Remnick and Tyler Foggit. Available wherever you get your podcasts.