Loading summary
Transcript94 lines
- [00:01]
Akilah Hughes
This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. And if you've been to JCPenney recently. Yes, JCPenney, you'll know it's becoming the way to find good clothes for prices that still make sense. They've got hidden gems for everyone and every budget, with deals and rewards that actually make a dent. If you already shop, JCPenney, you feel like you know a secret. But if not, it's time to ask. Wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shopjcpenney.com, yes, JCPenney.
- [00:30]
Dave Schilling
Hey, look at this.
- [00:31]
Daniel Harnsberger
Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump.
- [00:35]
Dave Schilling
Oh, my God.
- [00:36]
Daniel Harnsberger
The hostile takeover of Donald Trump. Donald Trump, before he was ever elected president, before he incited an insurrection to remain president, before he got impeached twice, and before he was elected again, was inducted into the WWE hall of Fame. For this, the realization of losing his hair has just invoked Mr. McMahon. Shaving another billionaire's head in front of a screaming crowd in Atlantic City.
- [01:04]
Dave Schilling
Oh, no. Oh, no.
- [01:08]
Josie Reisman
One billionaire saving another billionaire's head.
- [01:11]
Daniel Harnsberger
And honestly, it explains everything. America used to pride itself on being a shining city on a hill, but now we're a freak show broadcast non stop across social media, cable, cable news, and the manosphere. Yuck. And no one knows this better than Donald Trump, a man whose political strategy was essentially kayfabe wrestling's code of maintaining the illusion at all costs. But he didn't create this embarrassing dynamic so much as he perfected it. Politics across the board has turned into a performance. Showiness over substance, potshots over policy, gall over tact. And it's the only show currently airing on every single channel. So this week, I'm asking, why are there so many parallels between pro wrestling and modern politics? And how is it better to treat our politics like such a spectacle?
- [02:03]
Dave Schilling
Well, I mean, I think politics and wrestling have always had one thing in common, which is lying to people.
- [02:08]
Daniel Harnsberger
That's Dave Schilling, a journalist, a wrestling fan, and a former WWE writer. Yeah, seriously. So he knows exactly what game is being played in our political arena these days because he spent real time scripting.
- [02:22]
Dave Schilling
Wrestling is purposefully lying to you. It's saying what you're seeing right now in the. In the ring, in front of your face is real. And of course, it's not. Right. I mean, it's real in the sense that, like, there are real fists and real feet. People are jumping and hurting themselves. It's an athletic contest that is predetermined, but it's still an athletic activity. But you're. You're you're going out of your way to lie. And as a writer for wwe, it was our job to trick the audience, fool the audience, lead them one way so that we can get them to emotionally respond to a specific thing. That's politics.
- [02:54]
Daniel Harnsberger
Yeah.
- [02:55]
Dave Schilling
You get up on stage and you give a speech that promises things, that says things are a certain way when they're maybe not. And you're trying to inflame people's emotions. So it's very, very natural that wrestling and politics would eventually kind of meet in the middle. Obviously, Donald Trump has an experience in WWE, multiple experiences, right. He hosted WrestleManias 4 and 5 in the 80s at Trump Plaza in Atlantic City. And he also was at WrestleMania, I believe, 23, participating in what was called the Battle of the billionaires, where Vince McMahon, Donald Trump had seconds like wrestlers who would represent them and the losers wrestler would have to get their head shaved. And Trump shaved Vince McMahon's head.
- [03:35]
Daniel Harnsberger
Oh, my God.
- [03:36]
Dave Schilling
He has that experience. He's in the WWE hall of Fame. So he understands just being, you know, in the public eye and being a tabloid celebrity, but also from being very intimate with Vince McMahon as a business person, as a character on screen, he understands what it takes to inflame a crowd. And that is really the power that he's been wielding since 2015.
- [03:58]
Daniel Harnsberger
So the President of the United States isn't just a politician or even just a by proxy wrestler. He's actually a full blown heel.
- [04:05]
Dave Schilling
The heel, the bad guy, is this figure that is more than happy to be showered with booze and anger and vitriol. That is the whole job of the heel in a wrestling match or in a wrestling story to be so hated that you want to pay money to see them lose. And Donald Trump understands the power of being a heel. He's okay being hated. He is okay being the subject of ridicule. I mean, it obviously, like pisses him off quite a bit. That's why he sues everyone who says anything mean about him.
- [04:35]
Daniel Harnsberger
Right.
- [04:36]
Dave Schilling
But I don't think people on the left are comfortable being hated. They want to be loved. Obama was a figure that people could rally behind because he was so nice and he was so well spoken and he was so handsome and all of the soft power of charisma versus the hard power of sheer brazenness. And so that's the reason, I think, that Democrats, certainly establishment Democrats, are so afraid of what it really takes to be that person that people say, I trust them or I want to see more of them, or I'm interested in Them.
- [05:06]
Daniel Harnsberger
Something that I bump up against consistently is like, then who is the person that can beat Trump? And, like, obviously, Joe Biden beat Trump. My belief is because it had everything to do with COVID and, like, the COVID response, like, we were all so sick of being told to just choke and drink bleach by someone who literally got the disease before there was a vaccine and almost died, that we all were like, you know what? I'll do anything not to have to keep listening to this. I think the media abandoned that because they wanted to get back to normal. And so there's no responsibility placed on Trump for that anymore. But we have Joe Biden beating him. I think the right and the left were like, why now? I think the question is Trump may try to run again. Trumpism is not going away. Do you think that we need, like, the Rock, for example, to run against him? Like, do we. I mean, the Rock might be a Republican.
- [05:53]
Dave Schilling
I think he is, but do we.
- [05:54]
Daniel Harnsberger
Think we need the Rock? Or, like, John Cena, somebody who's actually, like, wrestling prepared, can answer that, can overcome looking like a heel to become the person we're all cheering for. Like, is that even possible on the left? Are there people that you have in mind that have that kind of leverage?
- [06:14]
Dave Schilling
Well, I would. I want to start by saying I would rather vote for a Rock than the Rock. If I was given the choice, the inanimate object might be more qualified.
- [06:23]
Daniel Harnsberger
Fair.
- [06:24]
Dave Schilling
Second, you know, I don't know if there's anyone out there. I had a lot of enthusiasm for Fetterman just because of his physical size, just because he's big, that you put him next to JD Vance and it's like Andre the Giant and Peanut.
- [06:39]
Daniel Harnsberger
A little guy. Yeah.
- [06:40]
Dave Schilling
Like, he's going to eat the Peanut. I don't know if there's anybody who screams pro wrestling on the left because, again, this is a respectability politics business. When you think about the media apparatus of the. Of the Democratic Party, it's a lot of people. And this is no disrespect to Chris Hayes, but that look like Chris.
- [06:58]
Daniel Harnsberger
Yeah, exactly.
- [07:00]
Dave Schilling
That are very, like, friendly, kind, friendly. Like, hey, guys, you know.
- [07:05]
Daniel Harnsberger
Yeah.
- [07:06]
Dave Schilling
Like, all the Pod Save America guys are like, nice guys.
- [07:09]
Daniel Harnsberger
Yeah. Too clean. Too clean. They all look like they showered today.
- [07:13]
Dave Schilling
Trump looks like, you know, a soggy bag of mashed potatoes. But he's got that scowl and he looks angry.
- [07:22]
Daniel Harnsberger
He's like an angry dad.
- [07:23]
Dave Schilling
Yeah.
- [07:24]
Daniel Harnsberger
He's like, I came home, the house wasn't right and the kids were afraid of him. And he's, like, kind of gross and slovenly.
- [07:29]
Dave Schilling
But you desperately want his approval. And I think a lot of people on the right want his approval.
- [07:33]
Daniel Harnsberger
Yes.
- [07:33]
Dave Schilling
I don't know if there's that charisma on the left, because there's not that interest in it.
- [07:37]
Daniel Harnsberger
In wrestling, the heel is the bad guy you love to hate. And the audience is in on it, kinda. They boo, they throw popcorn, they cheer when the good guy lands a punch or does one of their signature moves. But more than anything, they love the clash and the drama. Anything that elevates the hero in their story. Trump took that model, turned it into campaign strategy, and now it's the way half of Congress talks.
- [08:02]
Josie Reisman
You want to run your mouth? We can be two consenting adults. We can finish it here.
- [08:06]
Daniel Harnsberger
Okay, that's fine.
- [08:07]
Perfect.
- [08:07]
Josie Reisman
You want to do it now? I'd love to do it right now. Well, stand your butt up then. You stand your butt up. Oh, hold it. Stop it.
- [08:13]
Daniel Harnsberger
Is that your solution every problem?
- [08:14]
Josie Reisman
Hold it. No, no. Sit down.
- [08:16]
Daniel Harnsberger
Sit down.
- [08:17]
Josie Reisman
You know you're a United States senator active.
- [08:21]
Daniel Harnsberger
But how much of this tit for tat is real? Obviously, Representative Jasmine Crockett calling Marjorie Taylor Greene a bleach blonde, bad built Bush.
- [08:29]
Unknown
Body that would not be engaging in personalities correct.
- [08:32]
Daniel Harnsberger
A what now? And selling merch to that end seems authentic. But for other members of Congress, the barbs traded through the media are less believable. Think Mike Johnson insulting his Democratic colleagues on Fox News only to be chummy at the bar later that night. Wrestling has long had a term for this kind of theatrical commitment to Kayfabe. It's sort of like a commitment to the bit, because that's what a lot of this political theater is a bit. And Josie Reisman, a personal friend and author of ringmaster Vince McMahon and the unmaking of America Zone, says Kayfabe isn't dead. It just moved to Washington. We get into the state of Kayfabe and the Kayfabe state, if you will, after the break.
- [09:20]
Unknown
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply.
- [09:50]
Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there, and negative symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your possibilities@treatingscz.com.
- [10:20]
Josie Reisman
So Kayfabe K A Y F A B E is an old carony term. It emerged from the carnivals where pro wrestling got its start in the late 19th century. No one really knows linguistically what its origin is. It might be Pig Latin for be fake.
- [10:39]
Daniel Harnsberger
Oh, that's cool.
- [10:41]
Josie Reisman
That could be. That's just one theory. No one really knows. But it. It became this term of art within wrestling that no one outside of wrestling was familiar with after a while, because the Carnies even stopped using it. And in pro wrestling, it referred to the sort of omerta, the. The mafia, like, zip your lips about the secrets of wrestling. You had to maintain kayfabe. You had to keep up kayfabe. If an outsider to the industry was coming by and you and your friends who had to pretend to hate each other were talking to each other, one of you would see the outsider come by and be like, kayfabe, kayfabe. And everyone would, like, pretend to hate each other again, just until the person could walk by, you know, that sort of thing. So kayfabe was always not just fiction. It was not just maintaining this illusion that wrestling was an unrehearsed sport. What was interesting was you had to commit to it and to your character more or less all the time. Unless you were in very private moments with your family and with other friends from the industry, you really had to commit to your character to a point where it wasn't exactly fiction. It was that fiction would become reality for a lot of these people. That sort of traditional kayfabe was this lie that you would commit to so hard it would start to become the truth. The old form of kayfabe dies in 1989. Because in 1989, there's been a few years in which Vince McMahon and his wife Linda, in their capacities as the people in charge of the World Wrestling Federation, have been pushing for deregulation of wrestling and their business throughout various states. And eventually the New York Times catches wind of this deregulation effort and reports on it. And one of the points of the deregulation testimony that was happening in legislation and also, it should be said, in lawsuits, they were trying to get out of was, don't worry, this is all fake. This is all bs. This is like the circus or the Harlem Globetrotters as a purely defensive maneuver. But it ended up getting reported by the Times and the Times, it's such a classic Times thing. They were completely blinded to why this testimony was happening, which was deregulation to get out of health and safety standards and taxes. And they were just like, haha, we got to prove that wrestling is fake.
- [13:01]
Daniel Harnsberger
Right?
- [13:02]
Dave Schilling
Of course.
- [13:02]
Josie Reisman
Like it's this front page a one story. It's like now it can be told. These wrestlers are just having fun, but don't tell anybody because lots of adults think this stuff is real. And it was just like this complete missing of the point, right? That was the end of old kayfabe. That was its nail in the coffin. It already been ailing for a while.
- [13:20]
Daniel Harnsberger
But the nature of kayfabe has changed over the years and we see that in wrestling and politics after that, wrestling.
- [13:27]
Josie Reisman
Sort of drifts in the wilderness for a few years until this new form of kayfabe kind of organically emerges, which I perhaps overdramatically gave a title which was Neo Kayfabe to describe what we've had since like the mid-90s, which is this weird mix of reality and fantasy where it's not so much the old kayfabe idea of saying to the audience, hey, ladies and gentlemen, tonight what you see is real. Yeah, you start from exactly the opposite assumption, which is that the audience is smart enough to know that what they're seeing is not real. And therefore you can get away with a lot. And most importantly, because they know that most of it's not real, you can tease them by saying, what if one little piece of this was real? And they won't tell you what piece that is or they will sort of direct you towards it. They want you to play choose your own adventure at home. Like, the idea is they, the people putting together wrestling shows, much like the people putting together political talking points, know that there is a secondary ecosystem of like the rumor mill through blogs and social media and word of mouth. The point is to try and manipulate that secondary ecosystem so that people will start getting info that maybe even conflicts with your proclamation that everything that's being seen is fake. Like you can see these lies beneath the surface, and if you see them beneath the surface, you say, hey, go digging. Look for the truth. And people will dig up a lie, but because it was beneath the surface, they're convinced it must be buried. Treasure of truth, right?
- [15:04]
Daniel Harnsberger
It was a hidden detail.
- [15:05]
Josie Reisman
It was a hidden detail that, like, who could have noticed or whatever. And you can come up with any number of justifications for why you're buying into nonsense that has been fed to you. That's how politics operates now, as well.
- [15:18]
Daniel Harnsberger
Conspiracies.
- [15:19]
Dave Schilling
And.
- [15:20]
Daniel Harnsberger
And yes.
- [15:21]
Josie Reisman
Oh, I don't know when you're going to be putting this out, but I'm currently in the midst of getting tagged every other second this Elon Musk Trump falling out.
- [15:31]
Daniel Harnsberger
Right.
- [15:32]
Josie Reisman
About whether that's kayfabe or not. And I genuinely don't know. I'm really at a loss.
- [15:40]
Daniel Harnsberger
Okay, well, that's actually a good point, because something that I bump up against is, like, does it matter necessarily? Like, if the damage is still done? Right. You know, like, Elon Musk has been damaging to the country, to the whole world, like, and huge implications for the future. And so it's like, when we think about that, even if he's having a rift with Donald Trump, is it even worth the, you know, investigation of, like, well, his company will do better. So that's why it's like, who cares? But also, he's had an impact that was negative, so we don't need to care how he feels about Donald Trump.
- [16:11]
Josie Reisman
Oh, my God, I am so with you on this. I am so sick of trying to, like, figure out what's inside the heart of Donald Trump or Elon Musk. I don't care what's going on inside their little noggins or inside their special hearts. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is the very patently obvious damage that has been done by these people. Or I should say Linda McMahon, the Secretary of Education and former CEO of World Wrestling Federation and Entertainment.
- [16:41]
Daniel Harnsberger
I've got to get it out.
- [16:42]
Josie Reisman
Isn't that crazy?
- [16:44]
Daniel Harnsberger
In other words, conspiracy thinking is now a feature, not a bug. Politicians aren't trying to win arguments. They're trying to keep us watching, distracted, entertained, locked in. This is going to be great television, I will say that. And honestly, it's exhausting. After the break, we introduce you to a heel who's wrestled in small towns across Appalachia. And now that you understand what a good heel does, embodies what the audience will despise the most, you'll understand why he struck gold with his moniker. Up next, the progressive liberal at Capella University.
- [17:18]
Unknown
Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist, who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [17:47]
Daniel Harnsberger
Hablas Espanol spries Tu dul nosq?
- [17:50]
Unknown
If you used Babbel, you would Babbel's Conversation Based techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at Babbel.com Spotify spelled B A B-B-E-L.com Spotify rules and restrictions.
- [18:16]
Daniel Harnsberger
May apply People in that part of the country, in the Bible Belt, if you're an outsider, you don't sound like them. They know you're not from there. I don't know if insecurity is the right word, but just they're really averse to outsiders. The south, sometimes rightly so, is stereotyped, and they feel that and they take offense to that. So when you come in and tell them their way of life is wrong, that's where the heat would come in. The politics is just a smidge of it.
- [18:44]
This is Daniel Harnsberger. He's a wrestler turned realtor known as the Progressive Liberal. In small towns across the south, he's walked into rings in Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden tees while quoting CNN to rile up the crowd and get booed like he insulted your mother. His signature finishing move was called the Liberal Agenda, and he told Sports Illustrated that he came up with it just so that the announcer would have to say, oh, he hit him with his liberal agenda. From Washington, D.C. the progressive liberal Hillary.
- [19:16]
I never felt like I was a character in the Progressive Liberal. It was just me amped up. I had different monikers thrown in from my name, but it was just wrestling.
- [19:25]
And like all wrestlers know, if you touch a nerve, you have to try to strike while the iron is hot.
- [19:30]
Being featured on the national news, getting the platforms that I had, I would try to capitalize on that. So T shirts, bumper stickers, whatever to make more on top of each appearance. And we realized it wasn't good for me to be out in front of the people like that. Yeah, I mean, it was just a recipe for disaster. There's an event in particular where I Was like, yeah, never again. Get to the town, stay in the back, do my thing. Then, yeah, leave.
- [19:59]
It may surprise you because it shocked the hell out of me that many times. The progressive liberal actually wasn't the heel, but at least to some was the coveted babyface representing locals who were just blue dots and waves of red.
- [20:13]
I can't wait for that moment when I get my first convert to my progressive ways. That was one thing that you never saw covered, which I wouldn't expect them to, but, like, there were people that would come to cheer for me because you got to think about that. You lean left and you're in small town Kentucky, you're feeling pretty marginalized. So here's someone who represents me. I'm sure I was an outlet for them at that time.
- [20:37]
But it turns out people don't want politics in their entertainment, even if they want entertainment in their politics. And this is true for the fans as well as the huge corporations running wrestling in the US Today.
- [20:48]
With wrestling, you talk about either of the two big companies here in America, they're going to limit anything politically related. I mean, one of them's publicly traded company, they can't afford per se, to divide the audience, so to speak, politically.
- [21:06]
You actually bring up a really good point. And so I kind of want to follow this thread. So Donald Trump actually consistently says he wants to run this country like a business. Then you mentioned like a publicly traded company that is successful, that that would shy away from politics as a way to essentially make more money. Right. Like more people are going to come to this if it's less political or if people at least feel like they're welcome. Do you think Donald Trump intends to run the country like a business or do you think that he's just bad at business?
- [21:31]
No, I think he intends to use his platform to enrich himself. I mean, stuff that, like if Obama or Biden or, you know, if Harris had been elected and was doing the stuff he's selling coins and cell phones now or anything he put his name or brand on, he's selling it shoes. I mean, what does he not put? Bibles.
- [21:57]
Yeah. Stakes. Educational facilities.
- [21:59]
Josie Reisman
Right.
- [22:00]
Daniel Harnsberger
I mean, just you name it. So, like, I think he's going to use it to benefit himself and his friends and that's it. And then they're going to test the limits of our democracy and hopefully we survive it.
- [22:14]
The progressive liberal is retired for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that politics became too much of a bummer. I mean, look around. So if even the spectacle within wrestling is too much. What does that say about our elections? The performance has spilled into policy, into school board meetings, into attempted coups. And like Josie said, no one cares what's in your heart. In reality, the damage is done. So the short answer to how is this better? Is it's not better. Not better to watch politics as bloodsport. Not better to root for a side like it's Wrestlemania. Not better to vote based on vibes, hate or merch drops. And definitely not better to die on the hill of the guy you support, no matter what he may do, shooting someone on fifth Avenue or not. Because when it's all spectacle, the people who get hurt aren't just the ones who believed it was real. It's all of us. Thank you for listening to or watching. How Is this Better? Have you been enjoying the show?
- [23:15]
Josie Reisman
Great.
- [23:15]
Daniel Harnsberger
Please leave a rating, preferably five stars, and review to let us know what you think. We'd love to hear from you and it's gonna help introduce our new show to more people. Finally. Follow, subscribe, whatever they're calling it on your platform of choice. Or frankly, all the platforms Apple, Spotify, Courier's, YouTube. That way you won't miss any new episodes. Thanks and we'll catch you next time. How Is this Better? Is written and hosted by me, Akilah Hughes. It's produced by Devin Maroney and edited by Shane Verkhest. Curry's national Managing Director and Executive producer is Kevin Dreyfus. RC Demezzo is their VP of Brand and Social, and Charlotte Robertson is the Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Tracy Kaplan is Senior Vice President of Sales and distribution, and Marianne Kuga is Director of marketing. Show artwork by Danielle Del Plato and original theme music is by Used People. Sam.