Podcast Summary: How Is This Better?
Episode: The Wrestling-ification of Politics (Unedited Bonus with Josie Riesman)
Host: Akilah Hughes (COURIER)
Guest: Josie Riesman (author of "Ringmaster: Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America")
Date: January 30, 2026
Overview
This unedited bonus episode features a candid conversation between Akilah Hughes and journalist Josie Riesman exploring the increasingly blurred lines between professional wrestling and modern American politics. Drawing from Josie’s acclaimed biography of wrestling mogul Vince McMahon, they dissect “kayfabe” (the illusion of authenticity in wrestling), analyze how these performative elements have crept into our political system, and suggest what—if anything—Democrats might learn from this spectacle-driven era. The episode is rich with anecdotes, sharp analysis, and plenty of pointed humor.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Origins: Wrestling as a Lens for Politics
[04:19 – 07:22]
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Josie dives into her inspiration for writing a Vince McMahon biography during the waning months of the Trump administration, noticing clear parallels between wrestling’s performance culture and political reality.
“I just thought, this is a good way for me...to vent a lot of thoughts and frustrations about where we're at right now.” — Josie [06:13]
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Wrestling’s appeal and impact on American culture, especially among teens in the 90s and early 2000s.
2. The Dark Side of the Industry
[09:49 – 11:19]
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Josie distinguishes between wrestling as an art form (worthy of admiration) and wrestling as an industry (exploitative, a “cesspit”).
“Wrestling is a wonderful art form and a horrible industry. Like the industry, much like comics...what a cesspit in both cases.” — Josie [09:49]
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Wrestling (and comics) as early innovators of abusive gig-labor practices now common in the broader economy.
3. Kayfabe, Neo-Kayfabe, and Their Political Equivalents
[11:19 – 17:41]
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Kayfabe: Originally a term for maintaining the illusion of wrestling’s authenticity—even outside of performance (“a lie that you would commit to so hard it would start to become the truth” — Josie [13:24]).
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Neo-Kayfabe: After wrestling's “big reveal” in 1989 (NYT exposes wrestling as staged), performers and audiences now share an understanding that the performance isn’t real, but they savor hints that parts might be. Audiences are encouraged to “choose your own adventure,” digging for what’s really true, creating fertile ground for conspiracies.
“Most importantly, because they know that most of it's not real, you can tease them by saying, what if one little piece of this was real?” — Josie [16:14]
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Parallel to Politics: This blurring of truth and fiction now infects political discourse, amplifying rumor, spectacle, and “secondary ecosystems” (blogs, social media).
4. The Elon Musk & Trump “Breakup”: Does Sincerity Even Matter?
[18:56 – 20:40]
- The hosts address the perennial puzzle: Is any of the drama between major political and tech figures “real”? Should we care what’s genuine vs. kayfabe if both have real consequences?
“I don’t care what’s going on inside their little noggins or inside their special hearts. It doesn’t matter to me. What matters is the very patently obvious damage that has been done by these people.” — Josie [19:52]
5. Performative Politics in Practice
[23:52 – 27:42]
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Donald Trump’s decades-long relationship with wrestling, culminating in the 2007 WWE "Battle of the Billionaires" storyline, shaped his skill at working crowds and “playing himself.”
“What was really interesting was...he had not yet learned how to work a crowd—specifically an interactive crowd, specifically an interactive and bloodthirsty crowd—which he then managed to...pick up while doing these wrestling appearances very easily and then...replicate at his rallies.” — Josie [26:01]
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If only Trump had stayed as a kayfabe “president” in wrestling and never entered actual politics—a humorous lament from both hosts.
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The blurred personal/professional lines between the McMahons, Trump, and politics, including the surreal sight of Triple H (Vince’s son-in-law, wrestler) behind Linda McMahon at cabinet hearings.
6. Wrestling Stables & Political Factions
[37:22 – 39:15]
- Wrestling’s “stables” (groups like nWo, Nation of Domination) mirror political caucuses: Freedom Caucus, Progressive Caucus, etc. Trump assembles a factional, competitive team akin to wrestling or reality TV casting.
“Trump knows how to cast a wrestling stable or...a reality TV lineup.” — Josie [38:04]
7. Why Democrats Struggle with Political Wrestling
[33:31 – 36:59]
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Democrats are addicted to hope-and-unity narratives, lagging behind in the “theatrics” necessary for political wrestling.
“You need someone who can present the anti-Trump argument...with the theatricality of pro wrestling and with the commitment of kayfabe. Even if it’s true, you need to really commit to those talking points and be methodical with how you present your message and not appear methodical.” — Josie [34:16]
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AOC, Jasmine Crockett, and a handful of others are noted exceptions.
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“Obama hope-core” is outmoded; the moment demands “counter-theater,” not just conciliatory or clever taco-truck stunts.
“We’re not going to get another Obama. Hope is not the message. The message is beat it down.” — Akilah [35:43]
8. Charisma, Celebrity, and the Modern Political Champion
[40:10 – 41:43]
- Trump’s advantage: Decades of celebrity status have made voters “pick their moment” to see him as a TV star, cultural symbol, or villain. Democrats lack a comparable figure.
“They just want to know who the good guy is. And the Dem leadership seems resolutely opposed to anyone who can generate charisma.” — Josie [41:32]
9. Wrestling Terms in Political Context: Heels, Faces & Tweeners
[44:36 – 47:48]
- Face: A performer presented as the hero/good guy; Heel: The villain/bad guy.
- Contemporary politics emulates this, especially in televised debate (“talking heads”) where adversarial roles are maintained for public consumption.
- Tweeners: Characters who don’t fit cleanly; e.g., Stone Cold Steve Austin, and by extension, Trump (an anti-hero).
“Trump is very much like Stone Cold Steve Austin in that he is not exactly a baby face...they see him as being like Steve Austin in that he's a guy who acts like a heel but he does it for the greater good, you know, or even if it's not.” — Josie [47:48]
10. The Audience’s Role & Fan Dynamics
[50:37 – 52:53]
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In wrestling, audiences are co-authors of the narrative. Politicians now target and stoke specific “fandoms”—and Trump’s base exemplifies this.
“You need to find a base that is extremely enthusiastic about your candidate, product, service, whatever. And you need to work that niche base as hard as you can.” — Josie [51:22]
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The role of fan anger: Communities rally around shared grievance, not policy, fueling the attention economy—and the outrage machine.
“They’re gonna log on and rage, and they're like, what am I supposed to be mad about today?” — Akilah [51:50]
Memorable Quotes & Moments
On the Legacy of Wrestling in Politics
“Everything now is wrestling. And one of the ways in which everything is wrestling is everything is a non-union gig job.” — Josie [10:42]
On Neo-Kayfabe and Conspiracies
“You can see these lies beneath the surface. And if you see them beneath the surface, you say, hey, go digging. Look for the truth. And people will dig up a lie, but because it was beneath the surface, they're convinced it must be buried, it must be right.” — Josie [17:23]
On Democrat Messaging
“I think the problem is Gen X...they were so enamored with Barack Obama that they are all trying to become a Barack Obama hope figure. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's over.” — Akilah [35:25] “Dem leadership seems resolutely opposed to anyone who can generate charisma.” — Josie [41:32]
On the Future: The Next “Wrestling Politician”
“The next figure to emerge from wrestling in politics is going to be not exactly a wrestler, but spectacularly a good wrestler, which is Logan Paul. I'm really worried about Logan Paul entering.” — Josie [48:41]
Timeline of Important Segments
- 00:30 – Introduction and context of bonus episode.
- 04:19 – Josie’s wrestling background and genesis for Vince McMahon book.
- 09:49 – Wrestling as art vs. industry; the gig economy’s roots.
- 11:19 – “Kayfabe” and how it governs wrestling/politics.
- 16:14 – Rise of “Neo-Kayfabe.”
- 19:52 – Why the sincerity of public drama (Elon/Trump) is beside the point.
- 23:52 – Trump’s WWE backstory and the roots of his political style.
- 33:31 – Theatricality deficit among Democrats.
- 37:22 – Wrestling “stables” and political factions.
- 41:32 – The need for charisma and celebrity in politics.
- 44:36 – Heels, faces, and tweeners: applying wrestling’s morality structure to punditry.
- 50:37 – The role of the audience/fandom in shaping politics.
Conclusion
Akilah and Josie deftly tease out how pro wrestling’s blend of performance, manipulated reality, and audience engagement now defines American politics—especially in the Trump era. With sharp wit and deep knowledge, they illuminate the dangers of a system enthralled by spectacle while mourning a political class ill-equipped for that showmanship. The episode is both incisive and bleakly funny, underscoring that if Democrats want to counteract “wrestling-ified” politics, they’ll need to learn the art of the promo, pick a champion, and embrace a little bit of kayfabe themselves.