← How Is This Better?
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- [00:00]
A
I'm Brian Reed. When I created S Town, I looked at how secrets lies and the stories we tell shape a small rural town. Now on my podcast, Question everything, I'm going bigger. Hi, this message is for Senator Lindsey Graham. I'm hoping I head to Washington to take on a law that gives tech companies sweeping immunity is how these companies have gotten rich. Join me as I go after big tech on Question everything from placement theory and KCRW out Thursdays, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:30]
B
Hey, everyone. We're back again this week with an unedited bonus while we work on brand new episodes. This is a conversation that you all got to hear, truly just a fraction of in our Wrestling is Politics episode because I just had such a great time talking with my friend Josie Reisman, who is a writer and most relevant for this conversation, authored ringmaster Vince McMahon and the unmaking of America. We talked, of course, about all the parallels between professional wrestling and modern politics. And funny enough, at the time, Elon Musk and Trump were just starting their breakup and we talked about the reality versus kayfabe of that whole situation. Well, that seems especially relevant again with Elon's renewed vow to support Republicans in the midterms after previously saying that he was bowing out of politics altogether. Stay out, please, we beg. We hate you. Anyway, my conversation with Josie gets into what Democrats could potentially learn from this new landscape of wrestling. Ified politics.
- [01:28]
A
Enjoy. So. So are we, are we rolling? Are we doing.
- [01:34]
B
Yeah, we're going. So I will, I will hurry up and get.
- [01:37]
A
We're rolling because, you know, you know, you get some good stuff and in this little chat, oh, I know how it is. It's. Trust me, I worked. I worked all of the mediums. I have done podcasting, but more importantly, I've done television, I've done documentaries, I've done radio, I've done print. It's been a long, long 20 odd years in journalism. So I know, yeah, you get the good stuff. I'm watching that Pee Wee Herman documentary, right?
- [02:05]
B
I'm so excited. It's really going to watch it tonight.
- [02:08]
A
But like, they open in that way that every freaking documentary opens now, which is like, okay, we're rolling.
- [02:17]
B
And it's like, yeah, we're like, that.
- [02:20]
A
You'Re not supposed to see. And I'm like, come on, it's a good one. Like, it's well chosen. But I'm like, this is every documentary, everyone.
- [02:28]
B
I just saw the Sally Ride one and same.
- [02:31]
A
Yeah, they do that in the wrestling ones all the time. The A E. Biographies of these wrestlers. Like, they will always start with, like, often, Vince McMahon back in the day, before they sort of exiled him from their footage. But, like, it'll always be like, oh, some candid moment. And I'm like, these are wrestlers. Why are you trusting that these are candid moments?
- [02:58]
B
Like, that's a good point. They're acting all the time. They're literally not themselves right now that you're interviewing them.
- [03:04]
A
But this is. This is. The magic of wrestling is, like, people want it to be real. And that power of belief and that desire can really propel you into some interesting directions, my friends. I have to tell you that I don't know if you can hear my cat yowling in the background.
- [03:21]
B
I can, but I love it. I think it does. Okay, good.
- [03:24]
A
I'm making.
- [03:25]
B
It's a good soundtrack. All right, well, I'll start at the beginning. Can you introduce yourself, Josie? Sure.
- [03:32]
A
My name is Josephine Reisman. I am an author, a journalist of 20 years vintage, and my last book was called ringmaster Vince McMahon and the unmaking of America.
- [03:44]
B
Yes. Well, I wanted to talk to you today for a lot of reasons. I'm just a fan of everything you post, so that makes it easy. But I also think that we're talking about wrestling and how it bumps into politics and how our politics is just wrestling in the US Now. So, you know, speaking of your book, like, what inspired you to make a biography of Vince McMahon? Because I think that this is, like, I was a 90s kid. I watched a lot of wrestling growing up, and so I had the idea of what I saw on tv. But I think that, like, you know, your biography blew that wide open. So what was it about him that made you, you know, want to write this?
- [04:19]
A
The origin of this book is in the waning months of the previous Trump administration, when I had been sitting through about four years of Trump. At that point, five years was 20, 20, four and a half. Somewhere in that range, time had lost all meaning. And I didn't even know how much time would lose all meaning until a little later. But it was early 2020. I was trying to think of my next book, and I was brainstorming with my spouse, who's much smarter than me, and neither one of us can remember who came up with the initial idea of, like, well, why don't we. Why don't you do a Vince McMahon biography? I'd already done a pop culture biography, but as soon as that was said, whichever one of us said it, I had to come back to that in the conversation because, like, I grown up watching wrestling. When I say grown up, it was really only about three years in my teenage years, but like, come on, we've all been teenagers. Three years in your teen years is essential.
- [05:25]
B
That's your teen years. Yeah, yeah. The most impactful.
- [05:29]
A
Right. It's like you're constantly having these experiences that utterly change who you are. And, you know, one of them for me was getting into wrestling. I had initially really hated wrestling because my bullies liked it. But then my best friend got me into it and I spent these three very fruitful years being into it. Then I sort of fell out of love with it when everybody else did. Around 2001, when kind of craze started to totally. Right. But 20 years later, almost the world was falling apart. We were starting the COVID 19 pandemic had started, but it was not yet on US shores.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah.
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A
And I just thinking like, oh my God, like the people who are responsible for the past five years of my life and everybody else's life are so influenced by pro wrestling, even the ones who've never watched any pro wrestling. I knew enough at that point to know that Trump and Vince McMahon had been close, although I would come to learn how close. And I just thought, this is a good way for me, honestly, part of it was just, this is a good way for me to vent a lot of thoughts and frustrations about where we're at right now. And it seemed like a vehicle for some political analysis, which I hadn't really had the opportunity to do in my cultural writing all that often. I'd been able to dip my toe in there occasionally, but not really fully into like out and out politics writing. So, you know, that was. That was something. Sorry. My video stopped because it was trying to get me to update my new AI. No, I don't want AI.
- [07:23]
B
Okay. It's recorded in the dystopian time.
- [07:26]
A
I know it stopped my video. I turned it on. It was still like, ah, but you may want that AI.
- [07:32]
B
Yes.
- [07:35]
A
Where was I? Anyway, you were asking me why I wrote the.
- [07:39]
B
You were right.
- [07:40]
A
Yeah.
- [07:40]
B
You would just sort of.
- [07:42]
A
I wanted to have a vehicle for talking about the political situation we were in. And once the idea of Vince McMahon being on was on the table, it seemed like, well, this is a natural vehicle for that. Even though I hadn't watched in 20 years, I knew the terminology. You can learn a lot about wrestling in three years when you're an information addicted teen. And it just seemed like this is so much of what's happening Right now can be explained. Totally.
- [08:09]
B
Totally. And like, I mean, my personal background with wrestling. I have an older brother and like, similarly, I felt like his friends really liked it. I was like, I don't know what it is, but I was the youngest and so like the smallest in the family. So he had to practice his wrestling moves on somebody.
- [08:25]
A
Of course.
- [08:28]
B
I had to learn some wrestling booths. Yes. We broke a couch once in our house doing like. It was horrible. That was when it got banned in our house. But yeah, like wrestling was, you know, and we're doing the suck it thing to each other at school. Like we're doing.
- [08:44]
A
We're the same age basically. And yeah, that was like a problem. Problem. It is amazing to me that now you have. What was it? Kristi Gnome who like retweeted some bill or some legislate. I don't even know what it was. She just retweeted with suck it as like.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah. And it's like, oh, we're at that level of like stupid. Like, like idiocracy has really.
- [09:06]
A
Well, like, that was a phrase that we were getting in trouble for saying.
- [09:11]
B
Yes. Right. Like the. The adults were like, stop doing. Stop pointing to your crush.
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A
Like, I don't care who you are. Appropriate.
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B
And now you can't do that to the math teacher.
- [09:21]
A
Oh, the mind boggles. But that's where we're at, you know. Yeah.
- [09:25]
B
Run by fourth graders.
- [09:27]
A
Yeah. But. But also run by. By, you know, adolescent wrestling fans who didn't grow up into a more sophisticated understanding of this really wonderful art form.
- [09:39]
B
Right.
- [09:39]
A
Like, I occasionally get accused of disliking wrestling, which is completely nonsensical.
- [09:45]
B
Same. I actually really enjoyed it and I was sad when it got banned in my house.
- [09:49]
A
I wasn't chee that it's like wrestling is a wonderful art form and a horrible industry. Like the industry, much like comics, which was the my first book topic. Amazing art form underappreciated, deserves to have its champions and you know, blah, blah, blah. But industry, my God, what a cesspit in both cases.
- [10:16]
B
And.
- [10:17]
A
And that informs a lot about how labor practices work in this country now. Like the wrestling and comics industries, but especially the wrestling industry, really invented a lot of the abusive freelance labor practices that now exist throughout the gig economy.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah. Every single job now is the gig economy. So you're right. It's like everything, right.
- [10:43]
A
Everything now is wrestling. And one of the ways in which everything is wrestling is everything is a non union gig job. Yes. That you somehow mysteriously can't work for any competitors. In that industry forever.
- [10:56]
B
Right.
- [10:56]
A
You know, ever like you have to sign some non compete on top of whatever your individual contract is that says you're just a contractor. And it's like, I don't know, it seems a little specious to me, but like that's, that's how it works in wrestling and that's how it works everywhere now. I mean, that's just one of the million ways in which you can find parallels. But yeah, totally.
- [11:20]
B
I mean, I think it'll be helpful for our audience to understand the term kayfabe.
- [11:24]
A
Sure. Yes, I know.
- [11:25]
B
Can you define that for us and explain why it's like crucial for pro wrestling?
- [11:29]
A
Absolutely. So kayfabe, K A Y F A B E is an old Karny term. It emerged from the carnivals where pro wrestling got its start in the late 19th century century. And no one really knows linguistically what its origin is. It might be Pig Latin for be fake. Oh yeah, that's cool. That could be. That's just one theory, not really based on anything. It's just that's could be. Who knows? No one really knows. But it, it became this term of art within wrestling that no one outside of wrestling was familiar with after a while because the carnies even stopped using. Using it. Yeah, and in pro wrestling it referred to the sort of omerta, the, the mafia, like zip your lips about the secrets of wrestling. You had to maintain kayfabe, you had to keep up kayfabe. And if an outsider to the industry was coming by you, and you and your friends who had to pretend to hate each other, were talking to each other, one of you would see the outsider king by and be like kayfabe, kayfabe. And everyone would like pretend to hate each other again, just until the person could walk by, you know, that sort of thing. So kayfabe was always not just that. It was not just fiction. It was not just maintaining this illusion that wrestling was an unrehearsed sport. What was interesting was you had to commit to it and to your character more or less all the time. Unless you were in very private moments with your family and with other friends from the industry. You really had to commit to your character to a point where it wasn't exactly fiction. It was that fiction would become reality for a lot of these people.
- [13:24]
B
Right.
- [13:25]
A
So that's that sort of traditional kayfabe was this lie that you would commit to so hard it would start to become the truth?
- [13:34]
B
Yes, but. And so let's talk about neo kayfabe.
- [13:38]
A
The old form of kayfabe dies in 1989. Because in 1989 there's been a few years in which Vince McMahon and his wife Linda, in their capacities as the people in charge of the World Wrestling Federation, have been pushing for deregulation of wrestling and their business throughout various states. And eventually the New York Times catches wind of this deregulation effort and reports on it. And one of the points of the deregulation testimony that was happening in legislation and also it should be said in lawsuits they were trying to get out of, was, don't worry, this is all fake. This is all bs. This is like the circus or the Harlem Globetrotters. It was a purely defensive maneuver, but it ended up getting reported by the Times and the Times. It's, it's such a classic Times thing. The, they were, they were completely blinded to why this testimony was happening, which was deregulation to get out of health and safety standards and taxes. And they were just like, haha, we got to prove that wrestling is fake. Like it's front page A one story. It's like now it can be told. These wrestlers are just having fun. But don't tell anybody because lots of adults think this stuff is real. And it was just like this complete missing of the point. But that was the end of old kayfabe. That was, that was, that was its nail in the coffin. It had already been ailing for a while, and after that, wrestling sort of drifts in the wilderness for a few years until this new form of kayfabe kind of organically emerges, which I perhaps overdramatically, you know, gave a title, which was Neo Kayfabe.
- [15:24]
B
Sorry.
- [15:25]
A
Don't apologize. To the best of us.
- [15:28]
B
Yeah.
- [15:29]
A
So I came up with this term, Neo Kayfabe, to describe what we've had since like the mid-90s, which is this weird mix of reality and fantasy, where it's not so much the old kayfabe idea of saying to the audience, hey, ladies and gentlemen, tonight what you see is real. Everything you see tonight is real. You know, you start from exactly the opposite assumption, which is that the audience is smart enough to know that what they're seeing is not real. And therefore you can get away with a lot. And most importantly, because they know that most of it's not real, you can tease them by saying, what if one little piece of this was real?
- [16:14]
B
Is real. Yeah.
- [16:15]
A
And they won't tell you what piece that is, or they will sort of direct you towards it. They want you to play choose your own adventure at home. Like the idea is they, the people putting together wrestling shows, much like the people putting together political talking points, know that there is a secondary ecosystem of like the rumor mill, through blogs and social media and word of mouth and group texts, whatever people are getting other information about whatever the candidate or the show and the point or the, the politician, I should say. And the point is to try and manipulate that secondary ecosystem so that people will start getting info that maybe even conflicts with your proclamation that everything that's being seen is fake. Like, you can see these lies beneath the surface. And if you see them beneath the surface, you say, hey, go digging. Look for the truth. And people will dig up a lie, but because it was beneath the surface, they're convinced it must be buried, it must be right.
- [17:23]
B
It was a hidden detail.
- [17:24]
A
So, like, it was a hidden detail that, like, who could have noticed or whatever. And you can come up with any number of justifications for why you're buying into nonsense that has been fed to you. And that's, that's how politics operates now as well. Like it's always there.
- [17:42]
B
I'm seeing conspiracies and yes. Oh, we'll be right back.
- [17:52]
A
Over the same old news cycle, tune in to Hysteria, your weekly group chat with me, Erin Ryan and my co host, Alyssa Mastromonaco, where no topic is off limits. From politics to pop culture. We're bringing you brutally honest takes on the stories shaping our lives. From powerhouse women like Elisa Slotkin to wellness trends in education.
- [18:09]
B
No sugarcoating, no doom scrolling, just real talk, strong women and hope to keep moving forward. Catch Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and tune into our YouTube channel for full episodes and our special series, this year's Tax changes. Better not get caught snoozing.
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A
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B
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A
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- [18:49]
B
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- [18:56]
A
I don't know when you're going to be putting this out, but I'm currently in the midst of getting tagged every other second about this Elon Musk Trump falling out. Right about whether that's kayfabe or not. And I genuinely don't know. Like, I'm really at a loss.
- [19:15]
B
Okay, well, that's actually a good point because something that I bump up against is like, does it matter necessarily? Like if the damage is still done Right. You know, like, Elon Musk has been damaging to the country. And so him sort of having his out right to the whole world, like, and huge implications for the future. And so it's like, when we think about that, like, even if he's having a rift with Donald Trump and suddenly he's like, like, is it even worth the, you know, investigation of, like, well, his company will do better. So that's why it's like. But also, he's had an impact that was negative, so we don't need to care how he feels about Donald Trump.
- [19:52]
A
Oh, my God, I am so with you on this. Like, this is. This is exactly. I was in this interview for Dutch television a few months ago where I said the exact same thing is the big climax of my long rant, which was just like, I'm so sick. I'm trying to figure out what's inside the heart of Donald Trump or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller or RFK Jr. Whoever. I don't care what's going on inside their little noggins or inside their special hearts. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is the very patently obvious damage that has been done by these people. Or I should say Linda McMahon, the Secretary of Education and former CEO of World Wrestling. I've got to get it out and entertain.
- [20:41]
B
Yes.
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A
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
- [20:43]
B
Speaking of A one.
- [20:47]
A
Oh, my God, I got to tell my spouse about the A1 incident yesterday. She had. She had missed that one, which. Who can blame her? How can we catch all of the embarrassing moments that are happening in this tradition? But, like, When a Linda McMahon thing happens, people tag me. And the A1 moment is really special. It's just like.
- [21:08]
B
Yeah, like, as if we didn't already feel like you have no business doing anything related to books. It's like you don't even know what's going to kill books. Where are you right now? She's like, I'm just here. Like, she's like an SNL character to me.
- [21:21]
A
It's so weird because, like, she used. Here's the thing, she's a very cunning businesswoman, or at least used to be. But, like, she has no, she was never the creative juice of the. The business. And her. Her whole life has been doing the business bidding, the executive bidding of dangerous men. Yeah, really just two of them, which is Vince McMahon for many decades and now Donald Trump for about a decade. Like, it's really wild the degree to which this woman's whole, like, profile business wise, has been someone else comes up with the agenda, some terrible white hat guy.
- [22:07]
B
Yeah.
- [22:07]
A
And then I make sure it happens. Like right now.
- [22:11]
B
Exactly. I'm the person who's stuck doing this. Right. Like, I guess she doesn't care.
- [22:17]
A
Like, it's really hard for me to understand what motivates.
- [22:19]
B
Nothing else going on. And like, not a lot. Listen, I'll be the one to say it on the record. Not a lot going on up here. Like, I think objectively it's like, we need a body. I think we need a body. And I think that she's like, you know what I've been really good at being is like the person in the chair being like, listen, this is what it is. I don't have any. I'll get back to you. But it's gonna be what it is.
- [22:40]
A
Like one of the first.
- [22:41]
B
I could be that person. I just don't want to.
- [22:44]
A
One of the first things she did as a businesswoman was she and her husband Vince were the owners of the Cape Cod Coliseum in Yarmouth, Massachusetts. Yes. Sorry, it took me a second there. I was like, oh, where am I? Yeah, in Yarmouth, Massachusetts. And they had this whole like couple of years where they were refurbishing the place and they were doing year round events which had never been done before. And they brought rock concerts back and like did this whole political intimidation campaign for that. And then they just kind of got bored because the WWF blew up and they just sold the entire Coliseum off to Christmas tree shops. Like they just didn't. Once they were bored, it was like, yeah, all of these jobs in this local entertainment center can just go scream.
- [23:40]
B
Exactly. This whole economy we built can die.
- [23:43]
A
Yeah, who cares? Like I can take care of that as easily as building it, you know, and that's, that's what she's doing with this now. Like she's just dismantling the educational department.
- [23:52]
B
But you know, it's wild, right? Exactly. I mean that's a great segue into just sort of like these absurd and obvious examples of wrestling bleeding into our political system. Like there's Donald Trump playing himself as this recurring character in the late aughts. Like he's always on WWE because he can't be in anything. I guess it was WWF at the time.
- [24:11]
A
But he still at that point.
- [24:13]
B
Yeah, he was right in the.
- [24:14]
A
When he was in the Apprentice. Still doing the Apprentice.
- [24:17]
B
Yes. And so it's like that's how he's sort of getting like publicity is like, oh, he's on Mondays, like, come check him out.
- [24:23]
A
I know. And then he's at WrestleMania in 2007.
- [24:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so, like, with that, I mean, can you tell us what that storyline was? Because I think that, like in two must have influenced who he is now.
- [24:34]
A
Sure. So it did. Donald Trump had been involved in WWF and WWE programming since the 80s. He'd known the McMahon since the early 80s, had hosted two WrestleManias in the late 80s, had appeared at a bunch of wrestling events in subsequent years, but had not been a character until 2007 when there was this sort of crossover event to a certain extent with the Apprentice where he was playing himself. So he played himself and it was kind of the Apprentice version of Trump on Monday Night Raw. And was then at that, it was appearing almost every week either in a pre taped segment or live. And then that was all building up to in March of 2007, it might have been April. In the spring of 2007, they have WrestleMania and there is the battle of the billionaires between Trump and Vince. Now they don't actually wrestle each other. Exactly. There's that famous moment clotheslines him, but for the most part, it's just. They have proxy wrestlers and the two of them are at ringside. But what was really interesting was there's this real transition between his early appearances on WWE and wwf, which are very subdued because he's still old school Trump.
- [26:01]
B
Right.
- [26:01]
A
He had not yet learned how to work a crowd. Specifically an interactive crowd. Specifically an interactive and bloodthirsty crowd, which he then managed to A, pick up while doing these wrestling appearances very easily, and then B, managed to replicate at his rallies once he decided to start running for things.
- [26:28]
B
Yeah.
- [26:28]
A
Which was only a few years later because he has his first go at the presidency in like 2010. 2011, when he starts to latch onto the birther stuff. That's only three years later.
- [26:39]
B
Right, right. And it's like, it's so clearly like, oh, gosh. So I feel like, I mean, this is just my own aside, but I feel like this is when people talk about, like, would you go back in time and kill Hitler? It's like, can we just go back to like 2005 and just start like rearranging some things? Like, sorry, we double booked you. So the billionaire who's going to be on here is like someone no one's.
- [26:58]
A
Heard, like Warren Buffett. Here's what you do. Here's what you do. This is. This is something I'm stealing from my friend Daniel Kibblesmith, who many years ago.
- [27:05]
B
I love him.
- [27:05]
A
I love Kibblesmith. We grew up together. Yeah. He made the Great point. Even before I was working on this book, which was God wouldn't have been something if they could have just made Donald Trump the, like, kayfabe president of Raw or something. Oh, yeah. They briefly did have him as the kayfabe owner of RAW in 2009, but they abandoned the storyline and it's just like, oh, if only in 2009 they had really committed to that. Because Donald Trump's not the brightest crayon in the box. You could probably convince him that he was actually in charge of a wrestling promotion when he definitely was not. Totally.
- [27:42]
B
I mean, I've been convinced that he's running the country right now, and it's like he's not getting any intelligence briefing. He's just like, people are mad at me and afraid of me. I just tweet like, he's.
- [27:53]
A
He's like kind of a kayfabe president right now. And there's this alternate universe we could have been in where he is actually the kayfabe president of something at his friend Vince McMahon's company and he never bothers to get into politics because he gets his rocks off that way. But alas, that is not the universe we live, live in.
- [28:12]
B
My goodness. Okay, so like, one more example of sort of like this absurdity we're living in is obviously Linda McMahon being the secretary of Education, but also her son in law, who is Triple H.
- [28:27]
A
Being.
- [28:27]
B
Behind her at the confirmation hearing, like.
- [28:30]
A
Oh, my God, I know, I can't take it. Interesting to watch from a Vince McMahon and McMahon watching perspective because it seems like Vin, Linda and Vince are heavily rumored to have been on the outs for a while. And you can certainly understand why after the recent accusations against Vince. But it feels like in this shadow divorce, she got the GOP and he did not in the break like it. If, if that is indeed what happened, it feels like she is the one. And her coterie, which includes Triple H and Stephanie, yeah, seems to be the victors and Vince seems to be on the outs. Like you don't. I have not heard any rumblings in like a year about Trump and Vince being in touch. Now, that doesn't mean they aren't right. We just haven't heard anything about it. Like, there was a time when they were very close and I don't know if that's still true, but I mean.
- [29:34]
B
If this was a real wrestling storyline, Vince would come back as the sort of progressive, beat Trump, win back Linda. No.
- [29:46]
A
I'm telling you, speaking of alternate realities, be glad we're not in the alternate Reality where Vince decided to run in 2000.
- [29:55]
B
I mean, yeah, I would have been like, mom, you got him on.
- [29:58]
A
Yeah. Every kid in America and every teenager who just turned 18 or 19, whatever, their first election.
- [30:06]
B
100.
- [30:07]
A
It was. It was a. It was a hot election in 2000. And people floated that to Vince, but he turned it down. He felt like because he didn't want to be involved.
- [30:15]
B
That was one moment of clarity in that man's life.
- [30:18]
A
Right. Yes. He was like, I've got to tend to my business. Which was probably better for him and for us. Like, I. Things are bad, but I think a world where Vince McMahon becomes president in 2000 would have been aggressively worse. But they.
- [30:31]
B
That's. Yeah, yeah. I don't want Vince McMahon 911. Not that I want any 911, but if I have to choose, I should laugh. But oh, dear God, can you imagine him doing suck it at every other country.
- [30:44]
A
Well, have you ever seen the speech he did on smackdown after 911 it's worth.
- [30:50]
B
I am going to have to look it up.
- [30:52]
A
Weird. Yeah, it's very troubling because it's like all of their stuff in the odds during the Bush years became hella support the troopsy.
- [31:02]
B
Yeah.
- [31:03]
A
You know, Right. Like that.
- [31:04]
B
It became like, this is an American thing, is wrestling.
- [31:06]
A
We are.
- [31:07]
B
And that's how you prove that you're a patriot.
- [31:09]
A
Well, they've done that for a while, but not so much with like a war this controversial.
- [31:14]
B
Right.
- [31:15]
A
Even during Vietnam, like, they didn't bother to. They were still talking about the Soviets or the. They weren't like going after the Vietnamese necessarily.
- [31:26]
B
Right. Like immediately being like, this is right.
- [31:28]
A
Or like Asians or like they had Asians in there, but they generally were identified as like, Japanese or whatever.
- [31:33]
B
Yes.
- [31:34]
A
Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.
- [31:36]
B
There, but that's like fascinating. I mean, I guess I also want to talk a little bit about sort of like, you know, to the neo kayfabe of it all, we have this moment where I think, obviously the country is incredibly polarized and I think people are disillusioned in both parties at this point. You know, if you would ask me six months ago, I'd have been like, the Republicans have a real strong sense of self. I think that both parties are actually pretty fractured, but unfortunately, one party is not, you know, dealing with it out in the open. And I think something that sort of perpetuates this is that, like, there's this sort of hard line in the media where, you know, you have the speaker of the House Mike Johnson, always going after Dims and being so anti and being pro whatever Trump has to say, but then also lifting the veil recently saying that, you know, he's actually really good friends with Hakeem Jeffries who is the minority leader. And like, oh, we talk offline and so like that kind of shit, it.
- [32:33]
A
Drives you up a tree. And it's totally pro wrestling. It's this like we pretend to be enemies out there for the television, but back home we share a drink with each other. And I can't stand that manifestation of that kind of kayfabe in politics. Like there's a time for that, I guess. Like, but like not now. Now is right.
- [32:57]
B
It seems like that ship sailed a long time ago.
- [33:00]
A
Long time ago. Where like the political theater is the thing that keeps us from having an actual political war. Now we're having a low key war, right? And like the theater, I mean, like you got the Dems like sending out like tacos to and like really being.
- [33:18]
B
So proud of that. And I'm like, let the Internet run with that if it's so clever. Why are you, you. You're not. Don't fundraise on Taco. Literally. Go do your job.
- [33:27]
A
Go do your job. It's so nice.
- [33:29]
B
Like, stop. Stop with the stunts. Like what? Like, I.
- [33:31]
A
Here's the thing. It's like, go ahead.
- [33:34]
B
It's like worse. It feels like, like if, I mean, maybe this is a question for you. Like if the Dims maybe could, instead of bringing taco trucks around and at, you know, sort of feeling so smug about their like little jabs that happen here and there. If they like took some time and caught up on wrestling and then came up with like a great, not the heel, but like actually a great person who could take over this. Like, do you think that's what's required to meet the moment?
- [34:01]
A
I think that's, that's kind of. It is like you need, you need someone in Democratic. Right? Well, you need, I don't know. The Rock's politics are the way Elon Musk were elusive but like.
- [34:16]
B
Right.
- [34:17]
A
You know, in some ways. But what Dems really need, if you ask me, which you are, but most people aren't, is somebody who can present the anti Trump argument and the pro. I'll take kind of any agenda at this point that's non trump, liberal, communist, anarchist, like whatever. You need to present your position with the theatricality of pro wrestling and with the commitment of kayfabe. Even if it's true, you need to really Commit to those talking points and be methodical with how you present your message and not appear methodical. Like, that's the thing is like they don't watch wrestling promos. The closest thing they have to a wrestling promo deliverer is Tim Walls or aoc.
- [35:13]
B
Jasmine Crockett, right?
- [35:14]
A
Jasmine Crockett, Yeah. Like, there are a few. There's like very few, very few who seem to get that. What this moment calls for is counter theater, counter wrestling.
- [35:25]
B
It's because. Okay. And I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it. I think the problem is Gen X. I think it's Gen X. I think that they were so enamored with Barack Obama that they are all trying to become a Barack Obama hope figure. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's over.
- [35:39]
A
That time is done.
- [35:41]
B
We need somebody to fight.
- [35:43]
A
You're completely.
- [35:44]
B
We're not going to get another Jimmy Carter. We're not getting another Obama. Like, we don't actually. Hope is not the message. The message is beat it down.
- [35:50]
A
Yes. We went on the off ramp. My God. And it's. It's time, right?
- [35:56]
B
And they really think it's coming back. And I'm like, stop listening to like, your consultants are not in the same.
- [36:01]
A
Get James Carville out of that room and get like, Skeletor can go lay down.
- [36:08]
B
We have other things.
- [36:09]
A
Get Sami Zayn in there instead. Or like, right, like Crank T. Nelson, like, whatever. Just get somebody from, from pro wrestling to like do some kind. Get rear.
- [36:21]
B
I need an Internet troll. I need like. I need levels of like.
- [36:25]
A
Yes. It just, it's. It's very frustrating to see so many people get the moment and use it for evil purposes. That's the thing is like Trump's been watching wrestling since he was single digits old in Queens. And it's a beautiful art form. And to see him use so much of it for evil. Yeah, it's not new because Vince had already done that, but like to do it on this scale and outside of wrestling at this scale. Yeah, it's very hard to watch. It's very hard to watch.
- [36:59]
B
It's actually horrible. We'll be right back. I mean, I guess my sort of last thing in that same vein is these factions that we're getting between each party. Right. We have. You know, in wrestling there was nwo, which I was big into.
- [37:23]
A
Oh, you were more of a wcw.
- [37:24]
B
Kind of majorly wcw. I remember the time they took, took over like the wrestlers took over the night and it went till like 4 in the morning. My Mom's like, you have to go to bed. I'm like, no, because it's happening. I'm going to school with, like bloodshot eyes to go talk to, like, my bros on the playground. Like, did you see that stuff? Like, insane. Love wcw. But there's like, you know, there's the nation of dominance, there's the Generation X. And I guess Generation X is all this stuff, right? All of these little groups that sort of break off and you become like, that's my culture and that's what I'm into. And now we have the Freedom Caucus, the Progressive Caucus, and we have like, for the Republicans, we have like the Marjorie Taylor Greene's. And then I feel like it's all kind of Marjorie Taylor Greene now.
- [38:05]
A
Well, but it's not exactly, because, like, you have the. I mean, you're totally right in that basically Trump knows how to cast a wrestling stable or if you would like, a reality TV lineup. And his Cabinet reflects this in that it's this collection of people in his cabinet and immediate staff and vice president. All these people come from a collection of terrible conservative streams, but they are not the same stream. And Trump knows that it works to have, if you'll forgive, coalition. Well, a team of rivals, like, he uses that term on the dark side to be like, okay, if I have a bunch of people competing with, against. Against each other who really hate each other's guts because their agenda is not the agenda of their rivals and they really want to get to me, then everybody wins. And like, that's how Vince ran his company, right? It was very much how he ran his company. He wanted to have people in there competing for his affection. And that's how Trump runs his administrations and his companies for that matter.
- [39:15]
B
I mean, okay, here's a theory in that direction too. Okay, so, like, I think the reason that Democrats are bumping into so many problems here is that, like, we are so much more focused on, like, community, which I think is actually good. No, it is society. But I think that, like, in this actual moment, it's like we don't have the figurehead. We're fighting about who the figurehead is. We're fighting about who we're supposed to appease. And it's like, what if we just table it? Like, I wish I could just like hold hands with everyone and be like, let's do that in 10 years. Like, let's just suppose we'll be here in 10 years and then we can go back to that original mission of like, big giant coalition. But actually, right now we need to just have like the power hitter. And like Tim Waltz had a moment in the moment weird caught on. They were like, shut up. You can't be mean to the Republicans. And then it was like, what is this?
- [40:04]
A
It was agony. I know.
- [40:07]
B
We were all like, call it weird again. I'm like waving a flag. Like say weird.
- [40:11]
A
My. My spouse, who again is, is the much smarter than me. Writer and editor Si Rosenbaum always says that like we had one chance, which is if Oprah had run in 2016, not Oprah now. Oprah now has gone.
- [40:27]
B
Oprah now doesn't have. She doesn't have enough cache.
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, But Oprah in 2015, 2016, if the Dems had run her, you needed somebody who similarly knew how to like work a rowdy crowd. Yes. And people involved and has celebrity appeal. What are you going to say?
- [40:42]
B
Yes. And that, I mean I was going to say like to that point I wrote something about this, about how I honestly think Donald Trump's biggest strength is that he's been a celebrity in America for 30 years or 50 years. Like I think the fact that people just know him and they have the era in their mind, they're like, oh yeah, like I, I like him because of Home Alone. I like him because of the Apprentice. I like him because. I like him because he's a racist.
- [41:03]
A
Page six in the 80s or whatever.
- [41:05]
B
Right. In the parties he was throwing with Epstein. Whatever. Like they all have their moment that they latch onto. And I think that like, it's silly to think that like any of the people that the Dems are seriously considering because they're, they're still in this Obama Hope core era. Like are. Are going to have the same level of appeal to people who are not as interested in the actual day to day politics. They but just want to be like, who's my guy? I'm rooting for now.
- [41:29]
A
That's the thing. They just want to know who the good guy is.
- [41:32]
B
Yeah.
- [41:33]
A
You are making such a good point. They need somebody that they can cheer for. And the Dem leadership seems resolutely opposed to anyone who can generate charisma.
- [41:44]
B
Yes. And they're killing everybody like chances because like to your point, yeah, Oprah is out. So I'm like, who do we even have anymore? We don't have like Buzz Lightyear, like what's coming.
- [41:54]
A
I'm trying to think. I'm like racking my brain like, or no, no, you know, you know, I.
- [42:00]
B
Mean like no more billionaires.
- [42:02]
A
The person who comes to mind is somebody I Mentioned earlier, Sami Zayn, this wrestler of the WWE who's very politically minded and lefty and knows wrestling, but he also is like somebody whose politics I sometimes doubt because he's part of wwe. And that's.
- [42:20]
B
I mean, I. That's why I'm like, maybe the Rock, even if he is a Republican. And that sucks for us, but, like, maybe we have to get on the right track.
- [42:30]
A
I don't know. Bruce Springsteen or something, right?
- [42:33]
B
I mean, yeah, at this point it's like, yeah, who's. And I'm like, whatever.
- [42:38]
A
But, yeah, it's, it's. It's a weird time, but I do think the Dems can learn a lot from wrestling if they choose to. But it does feel like Dem leadership gave up on listening to people like me cough. Trans. Cough. A good long while ago. Not that you would understand for any cough reasons.
- [43:01]
B
Yeah, exactly. Brown as hell black person, but obsessively. Yeah. I mean, literally, that's the thing. It's like, so now I feel like all of the sort of goodwill that the Democrats have had to come up with in the past, you know, it's like they're just shitting on us. So I'm like, okay, so really, what's left? Like, because white people will just turn on you. Like, they don't care.
- [43:21]
A
They just like, like, I have such a difficulty, like, time, like, explaining why I bothered to vote in the last election sometimes to other, like, lefties who I still think that it was like, better to vote than not vote. Say, like, at the same time, like, it's hard to put up much of an argument, like, especially.
- [43:41]
B
Right. I'm not mad at any. I'm. I'm like, listen, I think that it's so obvious that the Dems could have done everything differently and had a better outcome. And so it's like, I. I understand why some people were like, hey, whatever, I get it. And I think that that's more where they're at. It's not even like, I hate this. It's like, look, if the. If the country is going to just explode and be over, then I'm down with it. And like, that's the conversation I keep having is people are like, well, faster is better than slower. And I'm like, not for me, but not for me. Me either.
- [44:09]
A
I know, I know. It's so rough. But anyway, anyway, I'm glad that you are out here preaching the truth. This is nice.
- [44:17]
B
Trying.
- [44:18]
A
Trying. Are there other things I can enlighten you on or you're listening?
- [44:22]
B
Totally. I'll and I'll be brief because I don't want to take all of your time. But I think that like something that would be helpful still in the wrestling of it all is like explaining what a heel is and what it means to be a baby face. And if there's anyone in modern American politics that you think fits those definitions.
- [44:36]
A
Sure. Yes. So in wrestling traditionally there have been two sort of polarities. In your average wrestling match, you will have the good guy, or if it's a tag team match, guys and the bad guy, or guys. Good guy is generally known as the baby face or just face. And that's sort of self explanatory. It's somebody with the unblemished credentials of a baby and therefore everyone loves this person. And then you have the bad guys who are known as the heels, which is a term of. Similarly to kayfabe. Unknown etymology, but it may have to do with the Bible and Jacob reaching for Esau's heel and being a heel like that. So heels and faces, the whole point is that they have to pretend that they hate each other during the match and in the promos and everything. But they're all working for the same boss.
- [45:34]
B
Right.
- [45:35]
A
So when I think about faces and heels, I think less about electoral politics.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah.
- [45:41]
A
And more about the media. Like that's where the political players start to become blurred in that way. Like, I think that there are definitely times in which you'll have heated arguments between electoral foes or people who are actual politicians and it turns out they're friends behind the scenes. You see that in the Supreme Court.
- [46:06]
B
Right.
- [46:08]
A
But I think more often than not, the clearest analog will be like you'll have a talking head that is ultra conservative and a talking head that is ostensibly liberal in some way and sometimes even actually liberal or protective progressive.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah.
- [46:22]
A
And they'll be yelling at each other on a 24 hour news network. They're both getting paid by the same people, like to be contributors. They are working even if they're not paid. They're. They're all part of the same content mill and they're essentially making stuff for the same boss. And that's. Heels and faces are also a useful terminology to understand because there's, there's something in between them which is sometimes known as a tweener because it's in between. And that's somebody who can kind of go in either polarity and isn't quite one or the other. Stone Cold Steve Austin being the most famous example of this in that even when he was a Good guy. He was a complete jerk. And he started out as a bad guy but was so beloved by the fans that they sort of made him an anti hero. And Trump is very much like Stone Cold Steve Austin in that he is not exactly a baby face. Although there are certainly people in the Republican coalition who see him as some kind of angelic, he can do anything, he's the great leader, blah blah, blah. They obviously don't see him as a heel out and out. I think more often than not they see him as being like Steve Austin in that he's a guy who acts like a heel but he does it for the greater good, you know, or even if it's not.
- [47:48]
B
And he's like, I'm gonna do whatever I want and people are gonna go with and they're like, I mean he's winning, he's winning.
- [47:54]
A
Right, Exactly. And that's the point. It's like, even if it's not for the greater good, it's entertaining, man.
- [47:59]
B
Yes.
- [48:00]
A
That's the thing is he often.
- [48:02]
B
He's saying stuff that's interesting. I mean, yeah, like the bars.
- [48:05]
A
You're not supposed to say. Right, exactly. Steve Austin is the one that I always point people to. They try and make me like compared to Hulk Hogan or the Ultimate Warrior and I'm like, no, Trump is a Neo kayfabe figure now. And you need to have an understanding of how people get lost in that maze of fiction and fact if you're going to try to understand how to get out of that maze. I'm afraid because I really think the next figure to emerge from wrestling in politics is going to be not exactly a wrestler, but spectacularly a good wrestler, which is Logan Paul. I'm really worried about Logan Paul entering.
- [48:41]
B
If that's what's next, then America is toast. And I think that that's probably gonna end it like right. Like it's just like how, how have.
- [48:48]
A
We ended up in this world where it's plausible that like that could happen? I don't want to will it into existence, but it seems like what's stopping him at this point, right? He's a well known influencer, he's good at everything. He tries for some fucking influence or.
- [49:03]
B
Yeah, he has enough money to like buy people off to like sort of do the same thing where it's like where I'm going to hire a very, very, very, very elderly boxer and then everyone's going to be surprised that it's no longer 1985 and he's going to get his ass beat and I'm like, I know. I. Literally, before it happened, I was like, we. We all know that this is just about to be elder abuse. And they're like, you're crazy. Remember Mike Tyson? I'm like, yeah, 30 before I was born.
- [49:28]
A
Years before I was born. But, like, in his.
- [49:31]
B
In his childhood, like, what are we talking about? This guy's older than my dad, and my dad is dead. Like, that is how old.
- [49:38]
A
But he's a really good wrestler. He's, like, astoundingly good at wrestling.
- [49:43]
B
Yeah.
- [49:43]
A
Because wrestling does not. It involves, like, some athletic ability. It's performance involves him being a jerk, which he naturally is. And people really get off on hating him for all the reasons that you wouldn't.
- [49:56]
B
Damn guilty. I'm the problem. So with all of this, you know, wrestling happening in our politics all around us, there's the other half of wrestling, which is the audience. And so their participation really determines the storylines in a lot of ways. Like, if people aren't feeling it, they switch it up. So the entertainment values in modern politics, like this extreme fandom, right, where people are dressing up, they're wearing American flags, like it's a costume. They're showing up to rallies at Madison Square Garden. Like, what does the audience mean? I guess now for the political landscape. And how can anybody win them back?
- [50:38]
A
It means that the smart people in politics have figured out that you need to access these kind of fandom communities that wrestling has figured out how to target for a long time. You need to. And this is true in entertainment as well, which is functionally the same as politics in the attention economy. You just need to find a base that is extremely enthusiastic about your candidate, product, service, whatever. And you need to work that niche base as hard as you can and hope you get somebody else beyond that. But, like, you need to find that reliable core. And Trump has found that it's that mystical 30 to 40% who will just back him on anything.
- [51:22]
B
Right.
- [51:23]
A
You know?
- [51:23]
B
Right. And I think that, like, it's like they'll back him on anything. I mean, truly, like, they're. They fully believe that he can do no wrong. But then there's this additional layer, I think, of, like. Of, like, being miserable together, where it's like, we need something to be mad about. And so it's like the moment that. That high of being angry because, like, you know, they could get it from having sex or, like, reading a good book or, like, taking a walk.
- [51:50]
A
That's not.
- [51:51]
B
No. They're gonna log on and rage, and they're like, what am I supposed to be mad about today? And I think that, like, it's easy to stoke a fandom when there is, like, always something else to be angry about. And like, absolutely. And that's true. Like you said, entertainment is bleeding into politics. But like, if you look at like the, the, the entertainers who are sort of winning right now, it's like they are either always the victim in something or there's something happen and it's like, why are we. Like, they're just sort of. I don't know. I think about it. I thought about this the other day, but it's sort of like the face that launched a thousand ships. Like, I feel like all of them are just the ships waiting to be launched and like the, the wars are just anything I am with you.
- [52:29]
A
I keep thinking of that line from the early seasons of Always Sunny when I can't remember which character says it. But they're, they're in a, they're in a story that involves another group and somebody says, who is this Versus? Like, who are we? Who are we against here? And that's like all people want. It's like they want to know who is this versus in any moment.
- [52:54]
B
Thank you for listening or watching. Stay tuned. How Is this Better? Is written and hosted by me, Akilah Hughes. It is produced by Devin Maroney and edited by Shane Vergus. Kevin Dreyfus is the managing director and executive producer at Courier Arthur Marcy Demezzo is VP of Brand and Social, and Charlotte Robertson is deputy director of Brand and Social. Tracy Kaplan is VP of distribution and sales. If you want to reach out about sponsoring or advertising, reach out to inforareernewsroom.com Marianne Kuga is director of marketing and the original music is by Used People and artwork by Danielle Deplet.
- [53:36]
A
Sam.