What 4 Generations of Veterans Think of Trump’s War in Iran

Summary

Podcast Summary:

How Is This Better?
Host: Akilah Hughes (COURIER)
Episode: What 4 Generations of Veterans Think of Trump’s War in Iran
Date: March 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode moves beyond media discourse and official narratives around the United States’ new war in Iran, led by the Trump administration, to investigate how four generations of American veterans actually feel about it. Host Akilah Hughes interviews veterans from the Vietnam era through Gen Z, exploring the motivations that led them to enlist, the realities they faced during and after their service, and their sharply critical perspectives on the latest military intervention. The result is a candid look at patriotism, propaganda, disillusionment, and an evolving yet eerily consistent cycle of American war.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why They Joined (02:24–06:59)

• Ben Fibelman (Gen X, US Marine, 2001–2006):
  • Joined at 17, motivated by “dress blues” uniform and excitement, not yet “the real world.”
  • “If you wonder why the Marine Corps, they have the sexiest dress blues uniform bar none. And you get a sword if you play your cards right. Nope, nobody else gets a sword.” (02:24)
  • Entered pre-9/11; after 9/11, new recruits were “signing up with the full knowledge that you’re not just going to war, you’re going out for revenge.” (03:16–03:43)
• Joy Metzler (Gen Z, US Air Force/Aerospace Engineer):
  • Raised conservative Christian, taught the “war on terrorism” was a fight to protect US and Christian values.
  • Only started to question these narratives after entering the Air Force Academy and especially after leaving.
  • “I really believed in what we were doing.” (04:41)
• Juan Bettencourt (Millennial, US Air Force, PhD, Immigrant):
  • Joined at 29 after Covid, seeking public service.
  • “I kind of saw it under those terms.” (05:22–05:55)
• David Lucier (Boomer, Vietnam Vet, Green Beret):
  • Inspired by JFK’s call to service.
  • “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” (06:47)
• Ed Anderson (Boomer, Air Force, Vietnam Era):
  • Joined to avoid college loan debt, not patriotism, but protested the war and remained politically aware (06:59).

Akilah Hughes’ reflection:

• All joined young, motivated by duty or idealism, but each confronted a reality starkly different from recruitment promises (07:43).

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2. Indoctrination & Disillusionment (08:53–13:06)

• Ben Fibelman describes the omnipresence of Fox News and conservative media in military mess halls as “baby bird feeding all these troops,” shaping young perspectives uniformly (08:53–09:50).
  • “Just getting, you know, barfed into their brain.”
• Joy Metzler discusses how the self-reinforcing language and framework in military academies makes questioning the mission almost impossible.
  • “The first day I was at the Air Force Academy … it hadn’t even occurred to me that some people might not want their kids to go into the military because of how it had been presented to me as such a noble pursuit.” (12:00)

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3. The Breaking Point: Gaza, Kent State, and Moral Revulsion (13:06–16:19)

• David Lucier: Kent State Massacre (1970) was a pivotal moment. “That turned me around when soldiers were killing Americans on a college campus.” (13:24)
• Joy Metzler: The war in Gaza—particularly the self-immolation of US airman Aaron Bushnell—triggered a collapse in her belief in the US mission: “When I was seeing the actual consequences that I would be participating in … that caused me to pause … is this really what I want to participate in?” (14:01–15:13)
  • Realized she’d been propagandized: “It was a pretty long process of unraveling an entire life’s worth of propaganda.” (15:30)
  • Applied for conscientious objector status.

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4. Conscientious Objection and Consequences (16:19–19:54)

• Akilah Hughes explains CO status criteria.
• Juan Bettencourt: CO process is arduous, leadership may “drag their heels,” with months of uncertainty (16:46).
• Joy Metzler: Backlash for speaking out, including investigations and threatened charges for op-eds and interviews.
  • “They tried bringing charges of contempt of an official and conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.” (18:00)
  • “If you’re not marching in step with everybody, then, yeah, you’re in conflict with the organization.” (19:03)
  • Recognizes the military only helps service members as far as they are useful for the “mission” (19:03–19:54).

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5. Trump, Iran, and the Pattern of War (20:59–27:49)

• Trump’s Broken Promise: Akilah notes Trump campaigned on ending wars, now launches operations in Iran (20:59–21:21).
• Ben Fibelman: This war “happened so fast.” Past wars had a defining culturally imprinted justification (9/11), Iran does not.
  • “America was involved after September 11th … whereas today, if someone’s signing up, they’re just … Iran?” (21:38)
• Ed Anderson: Strong historical echo – “I see Vietnam happening all over again. The Gulf of Tonkin was a joke and led to that war. Just like it’s a joke what we’re doing in Iran right now.” (23:40)
  • Blasts Trump’s cavalier remarks: “I will tell you, I’m particularly turned off, pissed off at President Trump’s comments that off the hand remark that some Americans will lose their lives.” (24:00)
• David Lucier: “There is no, you know, this war is wrong on every level. And we should do whatever we need to do to … stop it.” (24:32)
• Juan Bettencourt: “He was supposedly the peace candidate. But when it comes to this, he seems to be taking the cue from Israel at the moment.”
  • “Maybe violent imperialism is back on the table … How is that going to be responded [to] by Russia and China remains to be seen. And most importantly, by the American people and the people that wear the uniform. Are we really going to die for this?” (25:19–26:06)
• Joy Metzler: Sees no real departure from historic US policy, only added bluntness: “We want [the Iranian regime] out for Israel. … Now people are understanding that what we do overseas isn’t for our protection, isn’t for our democracy.” (27:02)
  • Raises the core question for service members: “Is that worth going to war? To a war that we started, that we started in an aggressive manner that goes against whatever war ethics, whatever international law you want to point out, is it worth it?” (27:41)

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6. Aftermath, Waste & The Erosion of Standing (27:49–29:42)

• Ben Fibelman: “So I was in Baghdad and just contractors everywhere, just the money just pouring out through a giant hole in the bottom of the boat.” (28:13)
  • On US standing: “Multiple generations of American goodwill and there was a thought that maybe we could recover, but it’s gone now.” (28:42)
• David Lucier: No longer encourages military enlistment: “Right now I … would dissuade … people from joining the military until a lot of things change.” (29:09–29:42)

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7. Conclusion: Oaths, Activism, and Hope (29:42–End)

• Akilah Hughes notes none of the veterans “quit” on their country – they channel their activism to “change the battlefield.” (29:42)
• Juan Bettencourt: “It is an important moment politically for the American people to stop this cycle and just reel in this … war machine … in the name of the lives of American service members, they shouldn’t be dying for interests that have nothing to do with this country and for wars that only profit the Epstein class.” (30:13)
  • “We still took an oath to the Constitution.”
• Akilah’s parting thought:
  • “They all took the same oath. They’re all watching the same war start. … The pattern is by design. ... The only question is whether we’re ever going to learn from the mistake. … The answer this week is it’s not [better].” (30:52)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Ben Fibelman:
  • “You get a sword if you play your cards right. … I wanted to do Marine shit.” (02:24, 10:06)
• David Lucier:
  • “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” (06:47)
  • “When soldiers were killing Americans on a college campus. That was beyond the pale for me.” (13:24)
• Joy Metzler:
  • “It was a pretty long process of unraveling an entire life’s worth of propaganda.” (15:30)
  • “If you’re not marching in step with everybody, then, yeah, you’re in conflict with the organization.” (19:03)
• Ed Anderson:
  • “I’m particularly turned off, pissed off at President Trump’s comments … here’s a person that has never sacrificed anything for anyone else.” (24:00)
• Juan Bettencourt:
  • “Are we really going to die for this? That’s the question right now.” (26:02)
  • “We still took an oath to the Constitution.” (30:52)

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:24: Veterans begin sharing their reasons for enlisting
• 08:53: Influence of media and messaging in the military
• 13:24/14:01: Key breaking points (Kent State, Gaza/Bushnell)
• 16:46: Conscientious objector process and resistance
• 21:38: Reflections on the new Iran war’s lack of compelling rationale
• 23:40: Comparisons to Vietnam, critique of presidential rhetoric
• 27:41: Big moral questions posed to today’s service members
• 28:42: Reflections on American global standing and advice to new recruits
• 30:13: Oaths, activism, and plea to stop the cycle

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Tonal Notes

The tone is deeply personal, frank, wounded but determined, marked by dry humor (about uniforms, “war on Kyle,” etc.), and a pervasive sense of moral clarity and generational disappointment. The veterans’ voices are brought forward; Akilah Hughes grounds each perspective and ties their experiences to the broader question: Is this war—and this pattern—truly making things better?

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Final Takeaway

Every generation interviewed is struck by the unbroken American pattern: enter wars on thin or false premises, generate incalculable human and financial waste, and return home disillusioned—yet, many keep fighting for something better. The answer to the show’s question, at least this week, is a resounding no.

Transcript

[Joy Metzler]

Over the same old news cycle. Tune in to Hysteria, your weekly group chat with me, Erin Ryan and my co host Alyssa Mastromonico, where no topic is off limits. From politics to pop culture, we're bringing you brutally honest takes on the stories shaping our lives from powerhouse women like Elisa Slotkin to wellness trends in education.

[Akilah Hughes]

No sugarcoating, no doom scrolling, just real talk, strong women and hope to keep moving forward. Catch Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and tune into our YouTube channel for full episodes and our special series.

[Juan Bettencourt]

These are exciting times and we're doing very well on the war front, to put it mildly. I would say. Somebody said on a scale of 10, where would you rate it? I said about a 15.

[Akilah Hughes]

According to the head of the Department of War, formerly known as the Defense Department, Pete Hegseth, and countless other representatives of the President, the US Is at war with Iran. Which is weird because according to the same people, we're not at war.

[Evan Osnos]

Actually, we're not at war right now. Four days in to a very specific clear mission and Operation Operation Epic Fury, which has two components, as you know.

[Akilah Hughes]

What is known is this the United States and Israel launched a military exercise in Iran last Saturday with no approval from Congress very 2003 and has since had to try to sell that decision to the American people with little to

[Ben Fibelman]

no success, death and destruction from the sky all day long.

[Akilah Hughes]

I'm Akilah Hughes and on this episode of How Is this Better? I wanted to rise above the endless discourse about why we're in the Middle east, the economic fallout, the lack of a clear, articulated goal, all of that. Instead, I wanted to talk to several generations of veterans who have fought for the country in Vietnam, Iraq and more and left for a variety of reasons about why they joined the how they feel looking back, and how they feel about this latest military action on behalf of the US Between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X and Boomers, I was absolutely fascinated by where their opinions overlapped and their candid assessment of the latest battle in the forever War. The US military is made up of people with a plethora of reasons for enlisting and you can't have a war without dedicated service members. So let's start with their why.

[Ben Fibelman]

Oh, it was. I mean I was a 17 year old kid. I wanted to impress a girl. I wanted the uniform. Cause if you wonder why the Marine Corps, they have the sexiest dress blues uniform bar none. And you get a sword if you play your cards right. Nope, nobody else gets a sword. You know, the 17 year old child was thinking about like, come on men, like over the hill kind of stuff. I mean it was a cartoon version of recruitment. I mean really what got me was the dress blues.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah, yeah. You saw them and you knew that was gonna be you.

[Ben Fibelman]

Nothing says you. You've underestimated me and I got a chip on my shoulder. I'm worth more. You can believe that. I strutted that stuff.

[Akilah Hughes]

That's Ben Fibelman, a Gen X cusper and a former U.S. marine from 2001 to 2006 who spent 2005 stationed in Baghdad. Notably, he signed up before 9 11.

[Ben Fibelman]

And so I was in for a good like seven, eight months before 911 happened. Then 911 happened. It was a whole new ballgame. And everybody after me, they're signing up with the full knowledge that you're not just going to war, you're going out for revenge. There's going to be glory, there's going to be this, that, the other thing. All the good parts, none of the bad parts. Yeah, that was just a completely different motivation if you joined before 9 11.

[Joy Metzler]

So I was born August 2, 2001. So by the time I was actually aware of the world, we had already been deep into the quote unquote global war on terrorism. I also grew up conservative Christian, So this quote unquote conflict was presented to me as a conflict of religions between Christianity, which had to be oppressed at all times no matter where in the world, and radical Islam, although the radical was kind of understood because it was always presented as Islam just by itself. So I grew up with this understanding that the greatest threat to our way of life, the way that I, you know, my life in the US was constantly threatened by radical Islam terrorism in the Middle East. And that's what our country was over there fighting against, that, that we truly were fighting for a better world for ourselves and for the people over there. And I didn't start to critically engage that until I was in college at the Air Force Academy. And it even took me being out of the Air Force Academy to come to terms with everything that I had learned growing up. And the way that these issues were framed to me were leaving out so much that I just didn't know. So that was part of my reason for joining was because I really believed in what we were doing.

[Akilah Hughes]

This is Joy Metzler, securely Gen Z and a former aerospace engineer in the United States Air Force.

[Juan Bettencourt]

So I actually joined him when I was 29. I was completing a PhD and Covid had just sort of swept through. And I've always wanted A career in public service. Like Joy, I'm an immigrant. I came here with my family when I was nine years old. Although I had my apprehensions about the military, you know, just the environment, the really Midwestern environment that I grew up in was, you know, seen as a great path towards, towards you know, civic service and furthering my career. So I kind of saw it under those terms.

[Akilah Hughes]

Our millennial veteran is Juan Bettencourt, a member of the United States Air Force who works with Veterans for Peace, an organization of military veterans and allies dedicated to building peace by educating the public about the true causes and costs of war. I mean, when you look back at sort of, you know, being basically a kid in Vietnam and, you know, now you've seen what's been happening with our military and sort of just various presidents and administrations and the way they move, how do you look back on what your time there now versus when you were first starting? Like, I guess if you want to

[David Lucier]

square that, you know, there's, there's several perspectives here. Number one, then, as a 19 year old kid enlisting, but, you know, had a. President Kennedy was saying, do what, you know, do for your country.

[Ben Fibelman]

Ask not.

[David Lucier]

That's right, ask. Yeah, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

[Akilah Hughes]

David Lucier is a baby boomer and Vietnam War vet, a Green Beret who now works with veterans.

[Ed Anderson]

I served during the Vietnam era. I did not go in theater. I went into the service not so much out of a sense of patriotism, but as a way of avoiding paying my college loans. My social awareness and political awareness had always been heightened by the Vietnam War and protests. I marched against the war steadily, but I was not anti military. And that was a distinction that was difficult. I will admit that at one point, coming through the Philadelphia airport in uniform, I did get derided by some folks who, if they really knew my politics, would not have said some of the things they said to me, but I understood the attitude towards the military.

[Akilah Hughes]

And last but not least, we have Mr. Ed Anderson, a veteran U.S. air Force meteorologist who now works with Common Defense to help veterans at every stage. What became immediately apparent to me is that their circumstances were not so different. They were mostly very young to enlist, had a sense of duty to the country, and thought the military would be their way of contributing. But the reality was different than the Hollywood version you see in Hollywood shows and movies like mash, Apocalypse Now, Good Morning Vietnam, Full Metal Jacket, Forrest Gump, even Mad Men lionized a generation subjected to the draft To Agent Orange, to jungle combat, and to a country ill equipped to care for veterans once they return home. But once you're in the military, well, it's not exactly like that. One thing that struck me across all four of these conversations is how much the experience of being in the military is shaped by what you're fed, literally and figuratively. Ben was stationed at Twentynine Palms, which is the driest desert base in America. 1100 miles in the Mojave Desert, training for exactly the kind of conflict he'd end up in. And three meals a day, there was a team TV playing in the cafeteria.

[Ben Fibelman]

I think about when I was, you know, 18 years old, they had the arms Armed Forces Network on TV in every chow hall. So for three meals a day you'd have this TV on and it ran on like an eight hour loop, I think because of how it be broadcast around the globe.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah.

[Ben Fibelman]

Which means you'd get the same news programs three times a day. And it felt like every single meal there was this guy named Bill O'Reilly on Fox News. It was always tuned to Fox News and so there was always Bill O'Reilly in the no spin zone just giving it to you straight. And boy, it just makes sense. And if we don't back this, just telling you how to think and the power of just having like Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson or whoever the pundit of the day is on Fox News, just baby bird feeding all these troops for every meal.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yes.

[Ben Fibelman]

Like they're eating with their forks, but they just have this like poison of we have to deploy, we have to do it for America. Just getting, you know, barfed into their brain. No wonder, like you get to Iraq and you're like, rah, rah, rah. I had to beg to get out there.

[Akilah Hughes]

Wow.

[Ben Fibelman]

I mean, I didn't join the Marine Corps to sit around. I could have joined the Air Force. I could have joined the Army. Yeah, I could have done something. Chill. I joined the Marines because I wanted to do Marine shit.

[Akilah Hughes]

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[Joy Metzler]

The first day I was at the Air Force Academy, I had to answer a question that was, is your family supportive or not supportive of this decision? And it hadn't even occurred to me up until then that some people might not want their kids to go into the military because of how it had been presented to me as such a noble pursuit and like the highest form of servitude. Someone could take all of this, all of this very, you know, like indoctrinating language, aggrandizing sort of vocabulary. Yeah, we joke about it in the military all the time. We joke that we're fighting for oil. We joke that, you know, we're fighting for corporations. We had one specific saying that was. And you know, when I repeat it now, it doesn't sound as funny as it. As it was when I went in the military. But it was, you know, join too late to go to the sandbox. Join too early to go to the sandbox. Join just in time to go to the sandboxes, which has been in the Middle east for so long. Yeah, it was something I had already like, considered that I'd probably end up doing. And so this felt like it was going to be, you know, my next war, so to speak.

[Akilah Hughes]

Every person I spoke with had a moment, not a gradual drift, but a line in the sandbox. For the Vietnam vets. It was coming home to a country that either didn't care or actively blamed them for the war. For the younger generation, it was Gaza.

[David Lucier]

I came home in December 69, I think May of 70 is when Kent State happened. That turned me around. Holy. I mean, I had my doubts and whatnot at the time, but that turned me around when soldiers were killing Americans on a college campus. And it was just, that was beyond the pale for me. I signed up as a Democrat, been a Democrat since 1970, you know, been working progressive initiatives pretty much ever since.

[Joy Metzler]

So Gaza was also my very, very sharp turning point because up until then I was considering a career in the military. October 7th happened. I thought it was just another chain in this long conflict we had been having in the Middle East. You know, new terrorist group pops up every about five years. The concept of all of going over to the Middle east was one that I knew was distinctly possible. But when Aaron Bushnell self immolated in, in February, I was so shocked that I actually started reading into exactly what had caused him to self immolate, what had caused him to take such a drastic action. And it was like, it was like the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. When I was seeing like footage coming out of, of Gaza, when I was seeing the actual consequences that I would be participating in, that, that caused me to pause for a second and say, well, on like a moral level, is this really what I want to participate in? I started using lessons I learned at the Air Force Academy to analyze what was going on in Gaza, what was going on in Palestine generally back in, back from the early 1900s and what we had reported. And I realized that these were, were pretty clear and blatant war crimes which, yeah, broke open my understanding of what, what the US has been participating in. And then once you kind of feel betrayed, once you start digging in a little further, figuring out what else you might have been lied to about. And it was, it was a pretty long process of unraveling an entire life's worth of propaganda. I questioned why we were in the Middle East. I questioned terrorism. I questioned the foundation that I had been taught growing up that this was a religious war and realized that it was actually colonialism and imperialism in which our country has been engaged for hundreds of years. And so all of the, all of the pieces started coming together and I felt sick being in uniform. I couldn't, I couldn't do it anymore. So I applied for conscientious objection and ended up getting out maybe about eight months later.

[Akilah Hughes]

For the other civilians like me, a conscientious objector, or a co, is an individual who refuses to participate in war, bear arms, or undergo military training due to deeply held, sincere and fixed moral, ethical, or religious beliefs. These beliefs must occupy a central place in the person's life rather than being based on politics, philosophy, or personal expediency. There are a variety of kinds of CO status that can be granted, so

[Juan Bettencourt]

the process itself is structurally complicated. It's usually eight to 12 months. It involves lawyers, packages, essays, psychological, and also a chaplain interview. Just to make this long story short, my commander, my leadership were kind of dragging their heels on the process, kind of weaponizing competence, if you will. And so at the end of the day, we just decided to, To. To separate me. But it was a long time. It was just a lot of uncertainty and just fear that they were going to, you know, somehow add some charges. And I know Joy can probably speak to some of the retaliatory.

[Joy Metzler]

I mean, I didn't have it as bad as some people. At the end of the day, my package moved through very smoothly, and it actually had to go through two chains of commands because I left one command and went to another just because. Just because I had to. I will say what. What did bring retaliation to some extent, was using my first amendment rights to write op EDS and do interviews. I got invested by security forces.

[Akilah Hughes]

Oh, sorry.

[Joy Metzler]

I know, it's so scary.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah.

[Joy Metzler]

So they, they tried bringing charges of contempt of an official and conduct unbecoming of an officer and a gentleman. That's in the. That's in the text.

[Ben Fibelman]

Yeah.

[Joy Metzler]

Great. My leadership kind of got them to back. Obviously, I was already pretty loud, so if they had tried court martialing me for it.

[David Lucier]

Yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

It would have been worse.

[Joy Metzler]

That wouldn't have shut me up. But, you know, an interesting thing, my commander said to me one time, you know, during my. During my exit interview, because I thanked her for, you know, helping out with my application. I knew that Juan's situation was terrible, and my leadership did their best to make sure it moved through smoothly. And she responded to me by saying, well, I just have to make sure that the Air Force wins by a little bit. Just needs. If it's 51 to 49, that's fine. It doesn't need to be a blowout victory. And I was like, I didn't realize we were at. We were in a battle, Right?

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah. And also like that the service members are in, somehow in conflict with the organization they represent. That's interesting.

[Joy Metzler]

Oh, yeah. If you're speaking out against it, if you're. If you're not marching in step with everybody, then, yeah, you're, you're in conflict with the organization. You know, we, we talk about how the service is like people first, personnel first. You know, that's, that's been a, that's been a huge push because people are depressed in the military. When they say mission comes first, they, they mean it. I was just talking with someone else that I know who had to come to that conclusion in a very, very difficult way. That the military ultimately does not care about you, your leadership, they don't care about you. They might say they do, but it's, it's kind of, you know, they take care of you because you're there to complete the mission. And if your people aren't happy, the mission won't get done. So that's the case for mental health. It's the case for any kind of help. They only help you so far as you're useful to them.

[Akilah Hughes]

Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we face the reality of a new war in Iran and what it will mean for the people serving our military.

[Evan Osnos]

Right now, news and politics are moving awfully fast. It can feel overwhelming, to say the least. I'm Evan Osnos, a staff writer for the New Yorker. On the Political Scene podcast. We slow things down to understand how power really operates in Washington, D.C. and what it means for my co hosts. Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser. And I have decades of reporting experience. And every Friday we have conversations with insiders and experts to understand the forces remaking America. Join us Fridays for the Washington Roundtable from the Political Scene on Mondays and Wednesdays. You can also hear insightful episodes from our New Yorker colleagues David Remnick and Tyler Foggatt, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Akilah Hughes]

Donald Trump ran on Ending the Forever Wars. He said specifically on camera repeatedly, there would be no conflict with Iran if Kamala wins.

[Juan Bettencourt]

Only death and destruction await because she is the candidate of endless wars. I am the candidate of peace.

[Joy Metzler]

I am peace.

[David Lucier]

People don't believe that

[Akilah Hughes]

he is now conducting military operations in Iran. I wanted to know what it felt like to watch that from the outside after having been on the inside. And across 50 years of service history, the answers were some variation of we saw this coming. We just didn't know it would be this fast or this naked about what it's for.

[Ben Fibelman]

So someone's signing up for the military now and you're told you're going to Iran. Like, it's hard to get pumped up. It really just feels like this happened so fast How I see America's patterns of war now, and I was thinking about this this morning, is that for the young service men or women that joined post 9 11, they had a true mission at their core, whether they. Whether they believed it was right or not. Like, America was involved after September 11th. Like, our backs were raised, Somebody was getting bloodied, and that was. That was deeply imprinted culturally. Whereas today, if someone's signing up, they're just Iran.

[Juan Bettencourt]

Who?

[Ben Fibelman]

The Ayahu Ayatollah.

[Akilah Hughes]

Right.

[Ben Fibelman]

My only reference culturally from my lifetime was a Simpsons bit about finding the old T shirt that says Ayatollah Asahola. Do you remember this?

[David Lucier]

Yeah.

[Ben Fibelman]

Like, that's how far back that goes. Like, 20 plus years. Like, obviously, I've been told my entire political life that Iran is this close to a nuclear weapon, but I have never lived for one second in fear of Iran. They just. They just do not have and never have had the power to project, you know, military aggression against the United States. They can project it regionally. And so if we have someone that we want to think of as a proxy for ourselves in the region, and it says, you know, if you hit my friend, you're hitting me. But that's just like, we never had, let's see, fire drills when I was a kid, earthquake drills. Never had, you know, Hezbollah might be coming through the door. And these days, if you're gonna have a mass shooter, it's far more likely that it's gonna be some white kid than some terrorist cell.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah. And there's no war on Kyle.

[Ben Fibelman]

You know what I mean?

[Akilah Hughes]

There's no war on Kyle.

[Ed Anderson]

I see Vietnam happening all over again. The Gulf of Tonkin was a joke and led to that war. Just like it's a joke what we're doing in Iran right now. And I don't know, I'm kind of getting off subject, but I will tell you, I'm particularly turned off, pissed off at President Trump's comments that off the hand remark that some Americans will lose their lives. And I mean, that just shot me through the roof, because here's a person that has never sacrificed anything for anyone else. And I have joined the chorus of send Baron to Iran. Little memes that are going around. But I challenge anyone to question my sense of patriotism when all I have done, like David, has served this country for more than 50, 60 years.

[David Lucier]

I think it is. Is wrong on every level. Morally, ethically, socially, financially, economically. I mean, you name it. There is no, you know, this war is wrong on every level. And we should do whatever we need to do to, you know, to stop it. I mean, there is no historical perspective or, you know, appreciation. You know, there just is none. I mean, here's a guy who thinks he deserves a Congressional Medal of Honor, for Christ sake. I mean, what. What a. What an insult.

[Juan Bettencourt]

I think he's clearly done, you know, pushing more betrayals on his base. And again, he was supposedly the peace candidate.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah.

[Juan Bettencourt]

But when it comes to this, he seems to be taking the cue from. From Israel at the moment. So it's also, you know, the vanishing of the, you know, Western international order, which, although kind of premise on a lot of hypocrisy, at least provided some sort of framework. And we're seeing that basically tossed in the trash can and turned into a new age of geopolitics where, you know, maybe violent imperialism is back on the table. It's back as part of the dynamics. So how is that going to be responded by Russia and China remains to be seen. And most importantly, by the American people and the people that wear the uniform.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Juan Bettencourt]

Like, are we really going to die for this? That's the question right now.

[Akilah Hughes]

It's a serious question. And it's also, what is being asked of young people is to go and die for this objective joy, I guess. Similarly, you know, Trump has made a lot of moves in the past few months. What do you sort of make of that? And how do you feel about other service members who feel like they were duped or now being asked to risk their lives for land?

[Joy Metzler]

The return question I would throw back is, is this really a departure from what American foreign policy has been for, you know, centuries at this point? But I think what might be different is that it's being presented in such a blatantly honest context. I mean, there might be a little bit of a underlying assumption that we're doing it for regime change, but we're calling it as such. We're saying we don't like this individual. So not necessarily for the good of the people. We want them out.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah.

[Joy Metzler]

Very specifically, we want them out for Israel. I think the difference here is that a lot of people are kind of are understanding that now that what we do overseas, you know, isn't for our protection, isn't for our democracy. Honestly, if I hadn't been at a civilian school when October 7th Aaron Bushnell happened, I don't. I don't know if I would have broken through that echo chamber myself. And so, of course, what I would. What I would say to every service member is the possible risk of losing your life, losing your friends lives. Is, is that worth going to war? To a war that we started, that we started in an aggressive manner that goes against whatever war ethics, whatever international law you want to point out, is it worth it?

[Akilah Hughes]

Something I kept coming back to in all of these conversations, beyond the moral questions, beyond the strategic failures, is just the sheer waste in a very specific infrastructural. Watch the money pour out of a hole in the boatway and then the longer term cost, which is harder to quantify. What happens to a country standing in the world when it keeps doing this and what happens to the people who come home.

[Ben Fibelman]

So I was in Baghdad and just contractors everywhere, just the money just pouring out through a giant hole in the bottom of the boat. Just. There's just so much waste and it's a waste of time. And for what? You know what, what did we really accomplish in Iraq? Well, we made Iran powerful. Yeah, that was one thing we did. Yeah.

[Joy Metzler]

Like.

[Ben Fibelman]

And what are we going to accomplish in Iran? Well, like there's no plan. So, so what's the point? You know, when I 20 years ago, 25 years ago, we pissed away a generation, multiple generations of American goodwill and there was a thought that maybe we could recover, but it's gone now. Yeah, that's the real cost is I don't think people realize that the coming generation is going to grow up in a world where America is not taken seriously.

[David Lucier]

These kids are going to come home with the same experiences and perspectives and they're going to need help from just today's standpoint up until just a couple of years. Well, in fact a couple, little bit more in a couple years. I, I could always encourage someone to join the military for a lot of reasons. Right now I, I would, I would dissuade, I would do whatever I could to dissuade people from joining the military until a lot of things change.

[Akilah Hughes]

None of these people quit. They just changed their battlefield. And I want to end there because I think it would be easy to walk away from this episode episode feeling only the weight of how broken things are. But what I kept hearing from the Vietnam vet who turned at Kent State and has been organizing for 55 years to the Gen Z aerospace engineer who got out literally a year ago and is already doing interviews and op EDS is that the oath didn't end with the service and we'll have the variety of organizations they rep in the show notes.

[Juan Bettencourt]

I don't think our political class has learn the lesson and there's no again there's no lesson to be learned when you're receiving those checks and making your the real bosses rich. But I think it is an important moment politically for the American people to stop this cycle and just reel in this, this war machine. In the name of world peace and also in the name of the lives of American service members, they shouldn't be dying for interests that have nothing to do with this country and for wars that only profit the Epstein class. So I think those are sort of the point that we should consider as service members. We still took an oath to the Constitution.

[Akilah Hughes]

A 19 year old who enlisted because Kennedy told him to ask what he could do for his country. A kid who signed up because the dress blues looked good. A Gen Z aerospace engineer who figured out from inside the Air Force Academy that she'd been lied to her entire life. A Colombian immigrant who was finishing a PhD and thought public service meant something. They all took the same oath. They're all watching the same war start. And they all know from different generations, different branches, different entry points, that the pattern is by design. We've been doing this for more than 50 years. The only question is whether we're ever going to learn from the mistake. I'm Akilah he this has been how is this Better? And the answer this week is it's not. Thanks for listening to or watching how is this Better? Make sure you're following or subscribing on your platform of choice, including our very own YouTube [e-mail] owis this better? And if you can leave a rating and review or comment on the episodes because all of it is super helpful in spreading the reach of the show and we appreciate you. How is this Better? Is written and hosted by me, Akilah Hughes. It's produced by Devin Maroney. Video editing is by Shane Verkus. Kevin Dreyfus is Courier's National Managing Director and Executive producer. RC Demezzo is their VP of Brand and Social and Charlotte Robertson is the Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Samantha Hollows is the YouTube and podcast growth marketer and Marianne Kuga is the Director of Marketing. Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and distribution. And if you're interested in advertising or sponsoring, you can reach [e-mail] show artwork is by Danielle Deplato and original theme music is by you Seaboard.