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How Much Can I Make? — Real Jobs. Real Stories. Career Insights
Entrepreneurs Insights - The Art of Boutique Hospitality
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- [00:05]
A
We've had people come that are from the same block in Brooklyn and they come and meet each other here at the fire pit and they leave as friends.
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B
Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make? I'm your host, Mira Vuzeri. Today we're gonna chat with Martin and Joe, the duo behind Grumman Cooperation with which is a 20 room boutique hotel in the Catskills, a getaway destination for travelers near and far. So let's find out what it takes to turn a dream of running a boutique hotel into a reality. Hi. Thank you very much for your time and agreeing to do it. I totally appreciate it.
- [00:47]
C
Thank you for having us.
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B
So first of all, before we get to the name and all of that, how did it come about that you moved from new New York City to the Catskill?
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A
We had a house in Woodstock for 25 years.
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C
Yes.
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A
Yeah, 25 years. Yeah. So. And we loved it. And slowly but surely our, you know, we would spend weekend, we would come here once a month. Then you come here once every other week and then you come here every weekend and then you come as much as you possibly can. You don't ever want to leave here. That's right, yes. And then your life becomes much richer here than it does in the city. And then plus we were both in jobs that, you know, we had to be in the city demanded. I was in advertising, Joe was in real estate. And we didn't want to be in those businesses anymore. So it made sense to be here.
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B
So how did it come about that you bought a motel, a hotel actually.
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C
Good question. Well, we had, we actually had an offer in on another property in down the road here. It was going to be like a business center.
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A
We work.
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C
Yeah, a wework center kind of, you.
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A
Know, we work of setup and we were going to do it in the old Phoenicia pharmacy. But the long tentacles of New York City come all the way up here.
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C
Oh yes.
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A
And if you, if you want to change the water usage of a building and it was a pharmacy, which a pharmacy selling postcards and everyday goods doesn't use much water to a coffee bar during the day and a bar bar at night. That's a lot of water. And so the dealing with the city of New York became overwhelming. And so we just couldn't do it.
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C
We had to go through five different agencies for approval on the water.
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B
And New York City had anything to do with it?
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C
They had everything to do with it.
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A
Because they own a lot of the water rights. The little stream that's across the street that has you any. Before you do anything, you have to get in touch with the city of New York, because it all feeds into the reservoir. And New York City has a say in how the water up here is used, if you can believe it. That became too problematic. And while we were trying to buy that, we met the people that owned the Graham & Co. And they said.
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C
Well, you know, it was by accident, by the way.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, really?
- [03:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
We buy it drove by and so.
- [03:03]
C
We walked over here from town and we wanted to. Knew it was here.
- [03:07]
A
We wanted to tell them what our plans were. And then they said, well, you know, we're thinking of selling this place. Do you know anyone who might want it? And suddenly our plan B became much more clearer.
- [03:18]
C
Yeah, that's. That is true.
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A
Right, right, right. So, yes, so the plan B became the plan A, and we had to drop the idea of buying the Phoenicia Pharmacy. And then we. We shifted gears and we bought the hotel. That was fortuitous because I don't think our idea for the pharmacy and bar and coffee bar and all that would have made it through the pandemic.
- [03:43]
B
It used to be the Cobblestone motel.
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C
Yes, it was. Yeah.
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B
And then it was the Graham Corporation, by the way, did they do the renovation?
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A
The Graham Corporation, they did a lot of the renovation. So it was a team of four creatives. They did the initial redesign of many of the rooms. They named it also, because. I know you're going to probably ask me about the name.
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B
I will. Because why did they keep their name?
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A
Well, because. Well, I'll tell you that. I'll tell you why. Because they had a great following when we bought the place, and it was already well established. And coming from my advertising background, I recognized how well branded this place was, and I knew that I had a. It was a great thing. And The Graham & Co. Is something that can be rebranded and used in a lot of different things. So I knew it was a great brand to have. And when we bought it, I was insistent that we own the brand as well.
- [04:39]
B
Did they charge you more because you wanted.
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A
It was part of the sale. Oh, it was part of the sale. If you go into the rooms, the blankets and all our body washes and shampoos, they're all well branded. And I could see this from the very beginning, and I. I knew what a great thing it was. So they did a lot of the initial work, but then we bought it and we kept going. You know, the WI fi here was not good, and you need good Wi fi.
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C
It was all scotch taped together in the ceiling. They hadn't, you know, believe me, it's a $4,000 job. I'm not quoting, but yeah.
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B
So it wasn't your dream to have a boutique?
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C
Not at all. Not at all, no.
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B
When you presented with this grand cooperation opportunity, did you have a second thought or you jumped, this is it. This is it.
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C
Martin jumped. I have second thoughts about everything.
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A
I absolutely knew this is what we had to do.
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B
Did you try doing Airbnb in your Woodstock house?
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A
Yeah, we did.
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C
Yeah, we did. Yeah. And it was very successful. Yeah, we had very big. You know what happened? It was stuck, though, right?
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B
Yes.
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C
They outlawed it.
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B
So what would you say is the difference between running a motel, besides the many rooms that you have here, versus an Airbnb?
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A
With an Airbnb, probably you work really hard and you put time into it and you make it nice and wonderful, but you generally leave when the guests show up.
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C
You set it and go.
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A
Yes, you set it and you leave. With a hotel. We're here when the guests are here. We try and entertain the guests. We want to make sure we provide experiences for them that are memorable.
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B
Yeah. I want to ask you about the.
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A
Experiences for the big weekends. Memorial Day, fourth of July, Labor Day. We start off with a beer and wine reception. And sometimes we have a DJ during the weekend.
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C
And sometimes you have a cocktail hour.
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A
Sometimes we have a cocktail.
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C
A free cocktail.
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B
Is this just for your guests or is it also for the locals?
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A
It's just for the guests.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because if you're asking them to. If you have a three night minimum and you're asking them to stay three nights, that's a big ask on your part of them. So you want to make sure that they are happy when they leave. That's super important. And so I say that I think that's the hospitality part is the big difference. And also being staffed properly. I mean, we are so lucky to have some amazing staff working for us. And we always get good marks online for our friendliness and, like, just being, like, helpful and things like that.
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B
How many people in total do you have working here?
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C
I'd say about 10.
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B
Wow.
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C
Yeah.
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A
That's in the super busy season. It goes down to about half of that.
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C
Sure. Yeah.
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A
In spring. And I have to say, we've got a great team right now.
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C
They're fantastic now. Yeah, we have a lot of very enthusiastic people here.
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A
Now, a good friend of ours, his name is Steve, he's really good with aesthetics and he always brings new ideas like oh, what if we put some lights in the back of the pool or what have we put, like the sign and we put it sideways and he's always looking to make the hotel look better. I can handle the guests and make them feel like they're going home happy. Joe's got an eye on everything. Steve has the aesthetics. Natalie's got, well, the booking and all of that. Exactly. She's got that sew down. This summer went well because we are all operating like a grocery store, actually.
- [07:55]
C
Yeah. I can't really believe the summer's over already.
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B
I want to go back to the experiences, if you can tell me, because I was surprised to read about it, and I think it's fantastic. If you can tell me what kind of experiences you offer here.
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A
I think going back to your other question, what's the difference between an Airbnb and running a hotel? I think that's the main thing, is that the game has gotten elevated because people don't, you know, this used to be in the cobblestone and days. And we stayed here then. We stayed here in 97 and we saw what it was like. It was, you know, it was just a place to stay. It was homey.
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B
It was a small town motel.
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C
Yeah, very small town.
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A
And. But now people expect way more. They want to come and they want to make memorable experiences. And that's the great part, is that at our fire pit, people come together there and they make friends, they meet new people. And it's very interesting. Like, we've had people come that are from the same block in Brooklyn, and they come and meet each other here at the fire pit and they leave as friends.
- [09:00]
B
Wow.
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A
And they leave as friends and they go back to the city and they're friends. So that's the main thing, is that you can't just provide a room anymore. It has to be. And as far as the types of experience that we have, we do things that we're not quite in the wellness space fully. But recently we partnered with Wendy Dima, and she's an amazing masseuse and licensed massage therapist.
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B
But you also have sound bath.
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C
Yes, that's right.
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B
What is that?
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A
So a guy, his name is John Minx, and he comes and he sets up bells and chimes, drums and all sorts of bells, and he just kind of plays them. You lay there and you're kind of washed. And the reason they call it a bath is because you're washed over by the sound. And then it just kind of. It builds to a crescendo and then you come out of that and you're in a different space.
- [09:50]
B
When did you start with the experiences? As soon as you bought the place.
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C
They kind of seeped in.
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A
Right. They just.
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C
One by one, we add.
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A
I think you kind of have to, like, stay on top of some trends and see what people are doing in the. In the hospitality space. I would see that. And it's big on Airbnb now, too. You can add experiences there as well.
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B
I read that you want to have no cell phone. No. No TVs. And so, first of all, what do the guests say about it? They come here and there's no cell service. Really.
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C
There is Internet and there is WI fi, so they. They're not stranded here. They get on their iPads.
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A
You know, I think people might actually really like that. You know, some people. One of the last places, there's no cell service. That's true. And so. But also no TVs. And I don't think what I've always said is, like, we. You. You don't come to the Catskills to watch tv. You got to be outside. We're about nature and getting outside. The original owners, they didn't have TVs, and we saw no reason to put TVs in the room. We have one TV in. In the den in our community space, in case you want to watch the news or whatever. No. If you want to watch a movie with friends.
- [11:01]
B
Would you say it's hard work to run a boutique hotel?
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A
Yes, it's hard work. And you don't know what kind of work it's going to be because, you know, like, in March, a pipe breaks over one of the rooms and there's water pouring into one of the rooms. And that's your job for the next stressful. Yes, that's your job for the next week or two to get that taken care of and renovate the one room. And it's not always glamorous.
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B
I know. Discovery Plus, I think it was, that did a show about Graham and Corporation.
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C
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
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B
Was it when you were the owner or the previous owner?
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A
It was us.
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C
It was us. Yeah, you did. You don't remember me from tv. It was exciting. Yeah. They were up. They were filming up here for about three or four days, and they had a couple of B roll shots, and they interviewed us for that long and they interviewed our designer.
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B
Was that like they gave you the big boost? Do you think a lot of people learned about you because of that?
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C
Not as much as you think. It's what's mostly word of mouth, wouldn't you say?
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A
It is. But it. It was helpful.
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C
Yeah, it was helpful.
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A
It was definitely helpful because people came from further away, maybe not have sought us out. So they did. And so I'd be here in reception, and somebody would be looking at me, and I'd be, like, kind of uncomfortable.
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C
It's weird to be recognized.
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A
Yes. And I said, oh, yeah? Well, I didn't want to say anything, but I recognized you from the TV show.
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B
So when you bought it in 2018. Correct. 2018. What was your vision for the long term?
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A
It's funny, because the one thing that essential to our vision was we still haven't completed.
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C
Oh, that's true. Yes.
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A
Which is building a new communal space that's a little bit more winterized. Because right now we have the den, which is fine, and it's a wonderful space, but it's not really super winterized.
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B
Do you have special experiences for kids, by the way?
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C
Well, actually, no, but we're contracted with somebody to design a coloring book of the animals that you see around the ground.
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A
Merav, that's the best thing about doing this job, is getting to do special creative projects like that. We work with good friends of ours, Camila and Renee. Camilla has created three stony clove products for us, and Renee has helped us with this design, and that's very exciting. We work with friends and we get to create our own things. That's right.
- [13:30]
B
Tourism could be at odds with a town. Do you ever run into a problem with a town having a. A hotel here?
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C
I wouldn't say a problem. We've had. We have. We've had a town meeting where people were concerned about our new building.
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A
Our new building.
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C
Our new building. Yeah, but.
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A
But it's fair. It's a fair.
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C
It's a fair.
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A
It's a fair concern because we're located in a neighborhood.
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B
Yes.
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A
It's not like we're, you know, remote, like urban cowboy or, you know, something else out there. Yeah, they're just, you know, remote. We're in a neighborhood in a town. So, sure, it's a fair concern, but I think generally everyone is pretty supportive of us, and that's good.
- [14:11]
C
Cool.
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B
I want to get into the design for a second because it's a beautiful blend of minimalist and rustic. What kind of feeling you would like the people to have or live after they stayed here?
- [14:23]
A
Well, that's a great question because, like, there's all sorts of places you can stay. There's a place that was up more north from here, and the rooms are like, decorated in different themes and. But that's not our style. That's not what we wanted. I aspire to live like our rooms are, especially the bungalow. It's minimal. It's got just exactly what you need. And you feel clean. And when you're in there, you. You feel relaxed. It just kind of like you just kind of exhale.
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C
It's not cluttered.
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B
It's. I was just going to say that.
- [14:54]
A
Yes.
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B
Now, do you think of doing corporate? You know, like companies bringing all of their employees or some of their employ.
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C
Sure. We do have those.
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B
We do.
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C
We do get those. Yes.
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B
Oh, that's fantastic.
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A
But it takes a special kind of company to come here because we're not super corporate, so.
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B
Not corporate at all.
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A
Yeah. So, yeah. So we've had some quirky companies come.
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C
And they are our few.
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A
And that's really the main reason why we're building the new lodges, because we want to have the infrastructure to host more corporate retreats.
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B
What kind of skill or character trait does somebody needs to have in order to run a boutique hotel like this?
- [15:35]
C
You're asking good questions. You have to be pretty independent and.
- [15:38]
B
Be able to make you mean financially.
- [15:40]
C
Well, that too. That doesn't hurt. But you have to be prepared to. I don't want to say be the mean guy, but you have to be prepared to be tough. You have to be tough in business and to say no to some things.
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A
It's interesting, though, because you have to have somebody, at least one person in the mix who likes people a lot.
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B
Which one of you is the one that likes me?
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C
That was Beth Bu. Okay.
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A
And then you have to have somebody who can lay down the law. And we have somebody like that, too. That's Natalie, our group booking manager. I. I guess because from my corporate days in advertising, I'm. If the client asks you for something, you want to say yes. And you're. I'm hardwired to say yes. And sometimes it doesn't make that sense to say yes, or it's against the policy to say yes. And I need somebody that can say no.
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B
Is. You're the one that can say no.
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C
I could say I don't say no a lot, but I say no when I need to.
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A
At some point, somebody does have to lie. People.
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B
Absolutely. And if somebody wants to start, besides buying the real estate, how much money does one need to have to actually open? You need marketing, you need maintenance, you need employees.
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C
Well, we just stepped into things, into the former owner's shoes.
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A
The biggest expense is. Is the staff that's the biggest expense.
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B
They're all on a payroll or the.
- [16:59]
A
Freelancers mostly on payroll.
- [17:01]
B
Wow. So that's expensive.
- [17:03]
A
Yes, that's the big expense. And because we were novices at the beginning, we. We staffed every shift all the time, year round. And then we realized, well, you don't need it. We don't need that. So we learned the. The ebbs and flows of the business. And now I don't panic after Thanksgiving until Christmas, you know, I know that there's not going to be anybody here. So again, we did have to have a big loan our first year to come.
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B
And the bank gave you the loan?
- [17:31]
A
Yes. It was kind of like a floater loan bridge. A floater loan. Kind of like. It was kind of like a newbie loan.
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B
You know, the bank wasn't concerned with the fact that you never ran a hotel before.
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A
They were concerned. Yeah, they were extremely concerned. In fact, that's why it took an entire year to close the loan.
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C
People don't realize it takes a long time to put together a commercial real estate deal. And I had. I worked in real estate, but I had never done a deal like this where there's a lot of moving parts to put together.
- [18:02]
A
They gave us a floater loan. But then again, you learn the business, you learn what it takes to. How to cut down. I. Again, we serve breakfast on the weekends.
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C
Yes.
- [18:12]
A
And I've learned how to buy just enough or just a little tiny bit more than we're going to need, because, you know, we have. We serve three different types of breakfasts in the communal. No. We actually bring it to the room. No. Yes.
- [18:26]
B
Wow.
- [18:27]
A
Yes. So they. They can pick from one of three breakfasts. One of four breakfasts, actually.
- [18:32]
B
Because you supply breakfast and linens and all of that, you have to pay sales tax also, right?
- [18:37]
A
Oh, yeah. And then since we've owned the hotel, hotel tax. Hotel tax has gone up by 2%, right.
- [18:43]
B
From 2% to 4%. So, yeah. So you pay occupancy tax and then sales tax and then, of course, federal instead. So you work for the everybody else, basically.
- [18:55]
A
That's right, yes.
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B
And what about insurance? You must have insurance.
- [19:02]
C
It's expensive. Yes, yes.
- [19:03]
A
And that was outrageously expensive because we're located close in a flood zone.
- [19:09]
B
Oh, yes. But it never got flooded this way. Property, right?
- [19:13]
A
No, no, not. I mean, maybe up to like the first door when we were closing the deal and they said, oh, by the way, you need to get a flood insurance. And I was like, what? And they said, evan, it's going to be $30,000 a year. Yes. And that was like. We were too far into this to say that's too much. So we were in it for that much the first year. Wow. It's since come down.
- [19:38]
B
But also, you saw that there were no floods. Are you still going to keep the flood? Flood insurance?
- [19:42]
C
Well, I think you can drop it.
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A
Right. It's because the bank insists on it.
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B
Ah, yes. They're all in cahoots. It's disgusting. Yeah. What would you say is the biggest misconception about owning a boutique hotel?
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A
That it's all glamorous. Not that it's fun.
- [20:00]
C
Well, it. It is fun, but it's a different kind of fun. Right.
- [20:05]
B
Did you make friends with any of.
- [20:08]
C
Yeah, some. I have to. Some of the guests are really fantastic, really nice people.
- [20:13]
A
I have to say. 98% of our guests are fantastic.
- [20:17]
C
Yeah, they're really fabulous people.
- [20:20]
A
Yeah.
- [20:22]
C
Yeah, they do that, too.
- [20:23]
A
We're very lucky. I mean, just like once or twice a year, we have somebody that's problematic, which is next to nothing, but. And then we have people that come back every year. And that's kind of gratifying, too, because we see the same people. People every year. We have one group that comes every Christmas and they spend New Year's here.
- [20:39]
B
That's fantastic.
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C
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
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A
And they really love this place. And for a lot of people, this is their happy place.
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B
So that's the big reward.
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A
That's the reward, yes.
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B
What is the biggest challenge?
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A
Not having a regular schedule. Like, it's. We're just. Especially during the summer, like when you get on in May and you go through the end of August, it's every day. Yeah. It is a grind.
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C
I'm always telling Martin he needs to take some time off. Not a lot of time off, but he needs a. You need a mental break from the business.
- [21:11]
B
Right.
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A
You know, that's the hard part. The end of August comes around, I'm exhausted.
- [21:14]
B
I thought that you would say the biggest challenge is the maintenance, the constant maintenance. But you just take this as part of your job, right?
- [21:23]
C
Yeah, it is part of the job.
- [21:26]
A
It is a huge challenge. No question. We.
- [21:28]
C
I'm gonna say this is gonna sound arrogant. We only have to pay for it. I can't.
- [21:33]
B
No, that's what it is.
- [21:34]
C
I can't actually do anything.
- [21:36]
A
I mean, you learn things. Oh, like the first time I patched a hole in the wall, like, just empty hole in the wall. I was so happy with this.
- [21:43]
C
But he did a very passable job.
- [21:46]
B
Why did you do look on YouTube how to do it.
- [21:48]
A
Yes. It's amazing the things that you can learn on YouTube.
- [21:51]
B
I met a woman that her abusive husband left her with the three boys, took the house, whatever. She looked on YouTube. She built a house with her three boys from YouTube.
- [22:01]
C
Really?
- [22:01]
A
Oh, my God.
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B
And they're gonna make a movie about her with Nicole Kidman. So do you have one incident or one guest that stuck with you more than anybody else?
- [22:12]
A
I don't have a particular guess, but one thing that I really love to see is when kids come here, especially young, like teenagers or like that, and they're very jaded and they're sitting kids and they come here and they've got. They're frowning and they're just looking at their phone and, you know, and they're just like, what is this place? You know? And then slowly over the weekend, they start losing that facade and then they just become kids again and they leave here just like kids and happy. When I get to see that with anybody, like they come here and in a mood or they've got a. Their armor up and then, you know, we can provide them a great experience. And then they leave and they're relaxed and they're happy. There could be nothing more gratifying than that.
- [22:57]
B
What is your dream for the hotel in the future in the next five, ten years?
- [23:02]
C
Well, to get the building built. That would be. And to get our liquor license. That would be a. That's a big deal.
- [23:07]
B
Oh, you're trying to get a liquor license?
- [23:09]
C
Yeah, we'll try to get the liquor license.
- [23:10]
B
That would be good.
- [23:11]
C
You need it. You need to have hot food available 24. Well, all day and all night.
- [23:16]
B
If you have liquor license.
- [23:17]
C
I think so. I think you have to have hot food available at all times during your working hours.
- [23:22]
A
I think that's the thing that's preventing us from having a liquor license. You have to serve hot food. Certain people just get away with it by sticking a hot dog in the back somewhere.
- [23:32]
B
Or pizza, small pizza.
- [23:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, we can try that. But again, I didn't want to do it half assed like I wanted. If this is the level of boutique hotel that we are talking about, we want to do it right and we want to have a really nice cafe that can serve something special.
- [23:47]
B
All right, then on that note, thank you so much.
- [23:51]
A
Thank you.
- [23:51]
B
I really appreciate it.
- [23:53]
C
Thank you for having us.
- [23:53]
A
Yes. Did you say anything interesting?
- [23:55]
B
You said a lot of interesting. Okay. All right, thank you. That's a wrap for today. If you have a comment or question or would like us to cover a certain job, please let us know. Visit our website at. Howmuchcanimake to we would love to hear from you. And on your way out, don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with anyone who is curious about their next job. See you next time.