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How Much Can I Make? — Real Jobs. Real Stories. Career Insights
Fencing Coach Career: Salary, Training & How to Get Started
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- [00:05]
A
You need a hyper focus on your skills and many hours of training your muscle memory. This is a very muscle memory heavy sport. You're supposed to learn your distance and figure out where can I hit this person and still maybe they don't hit me.
- [00:21]
B
Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make? I'm Ravozeri. When a friend suggested that I interview a fencing coach, I jumped on the opportunity because I don't know anything about fencing or the business of fencing. So I sat down with Pamela Dressel, who is a fencing coach in Maryland and a fencer herself, to find out a little bit behind the scene of this sport. It is a sport and a very demanding one apparently. So let's turn to my conversation with Pamela. I think you'll find it very interesting. Thanks a lot for coming on the show.
- [01:01]
A
Oh, thanks for having me.
- [01:03]
B
Yeah. When Tamara Lang, our mutual friend, introduced me to you, I was so excited because I know nothing about fencing. So of course I have questions. So let's start by if you could just tell us what is it you're doing in fencing?
- [01:19]
A
I am a coach, but I also still compete. There's competitions for there in the fencing world, it's called the veteran category. So once you reach 40 years old, you can compete against your own gender and your own age group in fencing that encompasses people like myself. Started late in life, came to it later and really enjoyed it and wanted to compete. But also ex Olympians who go home after their Olympic career is over, have their children and then go, you know what? I missed that. And they want to come back. So I coach to support my fencing habit. It pays for me to go do my competitions. So I'm teaching all age levels. I we are foil specific. At our club, there are three weapons.
- [02:08]
B
So wait, you said foil. Let's explain to the listeners that there are three types of fencing.
- [02:15]
A
Correct. There are three types. They are so different. The target areas are different. So there's EPA where your whole body is target. So. So foil is just the little vest that you see. Very small target area. Saber is just from your waist up. So each weapon has specific rules, target areas and priority or not priority that make them very individual. So you really need to focus on each individual weapon now if you want to be really good.
- [02:46]
B
Okay, so let's back up for a second. I read that it's the fencing is like chess on a hundred mile per hour, high speed sport.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah. So the interesting thing about fencing and I explain it to my newbies that come in when I'm teaching the first class. Think of it like imagine somebody at the Olympics doing gymnastics. They have to be so incredibly focused and fast and know the routine. How it differs from fencing is that this Olympic gymnast, if she does her perfect routine, she might get a perfect score from the judges. You can do fencing perfectly well and you still might lose because you have somebody on the other side of you trying to ruin everything you are trying to set up. So the reason they call it chess is I might have an idea to come get you with a set of actions that I'm very good at. I might do them perfectly, but because you are very good at defense, you can ruin my set of actions. And I might need to change my idea about what I'm going to do. Like that, like in a blink of an eye. I have to say, oh gosh, this isn't working. They're about to block me. I now need to switch to this other thing, like right now. So you can't just go and have memorized your routine.
- [04:03]
B
Those swords, are they really sharp?
- [04:05]
A
Oh no, it's not like that anymore. Yeah, it's a sport now. You plug into a little plug on the edge of your weapon and that cord that plugs in runs down your arm, inside your jacket and out your back and plugs into a reel and it creates a circuit. And when you hit it, it has a little button on the end the size of a pencil eraser, little button on the end that has to click in. And if that button clicks in, it breaks the circuit and your light goes on.
- [04:36]
B
At what age people usually start fencing?
- [04:40]
A
We recommend 6 or 7 years old for the youngest. It is very one sided and we have growth plates still developing in human body. So we don't want a little 5 year old really using one side of their body. We do try to do things to balance their development if they start that early, but you can start at any time. I started when I was 40.
- [05:01]
B
So you started at 40 and you're already training people and coaching people?
- [05:06]
A
Yeah, I'm 59 and the thing was I was a pretty high level athlete in my other sport. I was a dressage rider and I was training horses. So I was very athletic, very able to take direction and coaching because I had done that my whole life. It was just trading one set of coaching for the other. Once I learned the rules, I was. I don't think I'm typical. I think I was. It was a very good switch for me because I had similar skills.
- [05:33]
B
I think most people know about fencing from the Olympics. What do you think will surprise people the most about fencing?
- [05:40]
A
The most surprising thing I think about fencing is that so many people don't think that it's a, difficult or b, a real sport.
- [05:49]
B
Right.
- [05:49]
A
I'm shocked when I hear this. Shocked. My son was so frustrated when he was in high school. My. My son fenced as well at a very high level. He was a national competitor. And his friends at school would be like, oh, don't pick Jeff for the basketball team. He's not. He doesn't do a sport. And they were shocked when he could get the ball and be so athletic. They were like, whoa, look at Dressel. How is he athletic? He doesn't do a sport. And I would be like, he would come home and tell me this and be like, really? How? We spend hours doing plyometrics. The getting ready for fencing is conditioning and plyometrics and those hiit workouts where you're doing burpees and body weight. And it's crazy to me that people think it's not a sport.
- [06:29]
B
What does fencing teaches the fencers that other sports don't teach them?
- [06:35]
A
You know what somebody, one of my students said to me two days ago, funnily enough, that you had a good question. He came up to me and he said, coach Pam, I noticed lately, he's, is this me or is this everyone? He's. I'm walking around at school and something starts to fall off my desk, and I'm like. Like, I just put my hand out and I catch it like I'm the matrix. And I was like, okay, yes. You get really good spatial awareness of your body and how close you are to things. You stop accidentally bumping into things. I think it really tunes up your senses, really. Like, I notice if someone's too close to me, I feel it. It's so funny.
- [07:15]
B
What is the biggest mistake beginners make?
- [07:18]
A
The biggest mistake beginners make is it's just so overwhelming. The rules, the position you have to be in. And this is a position from hundreds of years of fencing masters saying, bend your knees. That is the one thing beginners find so difficult. It's so easy to just stand there and listen and do what you want to do with your hand. But if you actually have to bend your knees as well, that is very difficult for beginners. It's a strength process to become strong enough to stand in the proper position. And when you're standing in the proper position, you have better balance, you have better. And that means that you have better point control so you don't miss and
- [07:58]
B
and you're more athletic also.
- [08:00]
A
Exactly. So learning the learning curve of staying in the position is maybe the hardest for people, I would say.
- [08:07]
B
Did you need to get any kind of certification? Is there any kind of governing body there?
- [08:13]
A
There's something called the US Fences Coaching Associate Association. They have multiple levels and you take a test. At the time, this was pre Covid when I was tested, I think it was like going to say 2017. I got my certification and you go. I had to fly to Connecticut. I'm from Maryland. They offer these clinics around the country and I picked that one. So I flew to Connecticut. I was given multiple choice tests. I had to sit in front of a panel and be quizzed on my answers. Then I was told a skill that I had to teach and I was given a random student that I did not know and had to teach the skill in front of the panel and they were allowed to critique my presentation. I had to teach a class in front of them and then I had to answer more questions on why I had done the certain things that I had done. And then it was announced to the room whether I passed or failed. It was very nerve wracking. I did pass. But yeah, there are multiple levels. And for the US fencing.org our governing body that is in control of all of the competitors and all of the coaches, I have to take multiple safe sport certification classes where I'm learning about keeping children safe in sport, noticing predators, learning how to, for example, say I'm teaching a class and somebody, their parents aren't there to pick them up. I'm not supposed to be alone in the building with this child. I have to ask somebody to stay like it's just keeping children safe because there's been a lot of really bad people in sport. And I'm thinking of the people, Penn State and all the things.
- [09:54]
B
Of course. Yeah.
- [09:55]
A
So this is to counteract that. Plus I have to have all of my CPR and first aid up to date and I have to renew this every year.
- [10:04]
B
So you say that the sword can't really cut you, but when you look at the Olympics, they have all these gear that they're wearing and all. Why is that just tradition or what is that about?
- [10:15]
A
It doesn't cut you, it's not sharp, but you're being hit with a very flexible long metal stick and you can bruise the last fatality. I don't remember the year, but there was an Olympian and his sword broke when he was warming up and the tip of it that broke. Since they're under Pressure. When they break, they tend to fly away. And the tip went through. Through his mask and into his eye, and he died instantly.
- [10:44]
B
Oh.
- [10:44]
A
When a foil or a saber or an epee break, that is the time when they are the most dangerous. There is something called margining, which is a treatment to the metal so that they want it to break clean and not break jagged like a piece of glass. And those are the things that can happen where you're wearing the safety gear to keep yourself in case of something breaking, it can go through your jacket. The jackets have something called Newton's, which is like a puncturability. They withstand a certain amount of pressure and sharpness. The Olympians wear an 800 Newton jacket. That is the highest level of puncturability. It keeps you from. If that were to happen, it maybe wouldn't go through. But yeah, you can get hurt. I've had broken ribs, broken fingers. I've had I from swords or from
- [11:32]
B
falling and running into things.
- [11:34]
A
From people hitting me.
- [11:36]
B
Whoa.
- [11:36]
A
Yeah, it isn't. It is a combat sport. I'm sporting a nice bruise on my thumb right now from yesterday. People hit you and it can hurt. That's why we use the safety gear. But also your distance. If you get too close too fast and you just run at somebody, everyone's, oh, why do I have to do this footwork? Why can't I just run? Because when you're running and all your weight is forward, you can't slow down. So you like. And then somebody hits you, you've gotten too close too fast, you can get a bruise, you can get hurt. So you're supposed to learn your distance and figure out, where can I hit this person and still maybe they don't hit me. Think of it like tag with a stick. You want to hit them, but you don't want them to hit you.
- [12:18]
B
So what else jumps into the play besides being athletic and being able to run and stop and attack?
- [12:25]
A
You have to have the ability to change up your game instantaneously. If you encounter a scenario where it's not working, you have to immediately change, like within a fraction of a second, or you're just going to lose. So you need a hyper focus on your skills and many hours of training your muscle memory. This is a very muscle memory heavy sport where we want you to learn your reactions. We want you to learn, when this happens to me, I react like this. We're basically building a reacting machine. But we want you to react correctly. We don't want you to flinch and be afraid and twist away. We want you to get all of those human reactions down so that you can react in the way a fencer would react, which is. It is a martial art. So we are training people to react if you're in a sword fight, basically, literally. The other thing I would say is that I see kids come in and I know right away they're going to struggle with fencing, because we have something called open and closed mindset. An open mindset means when you're presented with a problem, you see it as a puzzle and you're willing to work on it. And the kids that I see with a closed mindset, if something doesn't work for them right away, they get upset they didn't do it right, or they did this to me and it didn't work, and they won't see it as a puzzle. They say, I'm not good at this. I quit. So you have to be very resilient in your personality because fencing is brutal. Everybody loses. You lose way more than you win. So you have to be willing to come back and come back and try this and try this and find what works for you. Without that mentality, you're going to be cooked and pretty much feeling like it's too much for you.
- [14:14]
B
What do you think is the most important skill for a fencing coach to have?
- [14:19]
A
I think if you have a lot of really good teaching ability, but you don't have an ability to look at someone and see what they can take, I think you're going to be the kind of coach that students don't stay with. There are times you need to push. There are times you need to back off. There are times you need to be very tough, and there are times when you really need to be supportive. And I've noticed just myself, just take me out of the coaching element. I compete, and the coaches that I've had that were not worried about me as a person, I personally struggled with them. I see it. I see coaches screaming at their students at a competition, and I wonder what that does. I wonder, is that for the parents to say, oh, look at that coach getting my child up to speed, or is that because they don't have the wherewithal to see that the child is being hard enough on themselves in that moment? I think you need to be the total package to be a coach, and if you're missing one of the elements, you're going to struggle.
- [15:17]
B
So coaches usually work in clubs and in schools. What a beginner coach can expect to make if somebody wants to break into
- [15:26]
A
this, a beginner Coach starting salary can be anywhere from 18,000 a year to 38,000 a year. And the higher number is going to be for people that have a little bit more experience, even a full time coach like myself, meaning I don't have another job. I do this for only. I only do this. It's still an evening and weekend sport because if you think about it, most of your people are children and that means they're in school and, or people have jobs. Even if they're adults, they're coming in the evenings, they're coming on weekends. So even though it's full time, it's still sort of part time. And that's why I would say it looks on paper like you don't make much money.
- [16:06]
B
The club pays you by the hour or you have a contract with them
- [16:09]
A
or I am a, I'm a contractor. So I, they pay me per class and then the students pay me individually for my private lessons. They buy a lesson card from me with ten or five lessons on it. It's like a punch card.
- [16:24]
B
Are the big sponsors in this sport? Who is the biggest sponsor in this field?
- [16:28]
A
Our biggest. Our Olympians and our World champions that are sponsored. There's a company called Absolute Fencing and they are a big supplier of our gear and they sponsor a lot of athletes. And you'll see, you can see like when there's a big competition, that company will be there. Others as well, but they tend to sponsor a lot of people and you'll see big posters of that person in the venue. Nike has gotten involved a little bit with some gear, but this is mostly a sport where if you don't have the money for it, you can't do it.
- [17:03]
B
Yeah. So it's a rich kid sport.
- [17:05]
A
A rich kid sport. However, there are really good programs up in New York especially. You have the Peter Westbrook foundation and they take kids without as many opportunities and really help them get into the sport. And I think there's an element of accountability. You have to keep your grades up, you have to be a good citizen, but you get training and gear and a lot of support. And there have been, I think four or five Olympians that have come through that program.
- [17:35]
B
Oh, wow. What would you say is the biggest misconception about the sport?
- [17:39]
A
Maybe what we just said, that it is only for rich kids. There are opportunities. If you look that anybody can do this sport now, maybe not. Anybody can say, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to put myself in a competition in Italy next month and I'm going to buy all the tickets for that. But you can do it locally for pretty inexpensively. You don't have to be in the upper elite echelon of this sport in order to enjoy it, but to do it.
- [18:06]
B
But if I want to buy the gear, all the clothing and the swords, what kind of investment should I look at?
- [18:13]
A
You're looking if you want to have all your own gear, you're looking at about 300.
- [18:17]
B
Oh, that's not bad.
- [18:19]
A
It's not bad. And also at our club and I think a lot of clubs at a beginner level, we're talking 7 to 10, 12 year olds that come in and they're newbies. We don't ask you to buy gear. We have a whole wall of things that you may borrow.
- [18:34]
B
What does your day to day looks like? You come to the club and then what do you do? Do you have to first run on a trade meal for a little bit? How does it work?
- [18:45]
A
Yeah, that's such a good question. Because everyone's like, how do we stay in shape? What do we do? We don't want you to practice fencing at home. We don't want you to get bad habits that we then have to fix. So yeah, we want you to do any exercises or conditioning you want to do at your house, at home. But when you come into the fencing club and say you're going to have a private lesson with me in the classes, most of my students take my classes as well. That's pretty typical of all fencing clubs. We have a routine that we run through that is your warm up. And we do that pretty consistently every class, same things every time. Maybe you jog and then maybe you do things, some conditioning for your arms or you're doing loosening up and after you get a little bit sweaty, then you do some stretching. And we want you to do these things all the time because then when you get to your competition, you do these things and your body is used to doing these things before you fence. So I'm doing lots of things like you would see in a hiit workout. I'm doing some jumping and some stretching and some reaching and I'm moving my body so that it's getting loose, like lymphatic systems are moving and engaging the glutes. And then we start doing footwork. When the class comes in, I want to say maybe 12 to 18 people in a class, okay. And everybody warms up. Sensors have very large quads. We work all the time on our leg strength and our flexibility. So everybody's oh, the footwork is so hard. So everyone. You suffer together, so you build bonds that way.
- [20:18]
B
But might be a stupid question. Do you use regular sneakers or are there special shoes for that?
- [20:23]
A
So you start off with regular sneakers. As you get more and more into the sport, you start to specialize into shoes. You just need a sneaker that would be, like, for a racket sport, like badminton or even indoor soccer. Something that has lateral support so that when you put your foot down sideways, you don't roll your ankle. A running shoe support for forward.
- [20:44]
B
Is the sport more popular in Europe than here?
- [20:48]
A
Oh, my gosh. It's like. Like in Italy, for example, their fencers are movie stars. They are, like. They are famous. So in Italy, they're the. The number one foil fencer in the world. She has been to six Olympics, many world championships. She's the most successful female fencer of all time. She's like their chancellor or something. When she retired, they elected her to the government. Wow. They go on Dancing with the Stars. Yeah. They're like the celebrities. So in this country, we're like, who's Lee Kiefer? But over there, they're like, oh, my God, Lee Kiefer. Like, the whole. Everyone shows up when her plane lands. It's so popular. And that's across the board. Like, people know their fencers in Europe, but here it's like, who's that?
- [21:34]
B
I wonder why.
- [21:35]
A
I think it just wasn't popular here.
- [21:37]
B
I'm surprised because having duels was very popular in America.
- [21:41]
A
Yeah, well, I think that's how they saw it. Like cowboys. Like men. You know, in this country, women weren't even allowed defense for a long time.
- [21:48]
B
Wow.
- [21:48]
A
Women were only allowed to do saber, and they had to wear skirts. I have a friend that she started fencing that long ago, and she started in a skirt with sabre. She remembers the days of having to wear her long, white wool pleated skirt and knee socks and could only do saber. I mean, that's crazy. This is like the 1950s, and women weren't allowed to fence.
- [22:10]
B
That's so stupid.
- [22:12]
A
So stupid.
- [22:14]
B
What is the biggest challenge about being a fencing coach?
- [22:18]
A
That is such a good question. I have so many directions I can go. I just want to constantly be improving my classes and the experience that people get when they come in. So I'm constantly, how can I make this class more fun, safer? How can I make it less confusing? Okay, here we go. This is my answer. So I have a class of maybe 12 people, and they've been in the class for two or three months, and they're starting to learn certain things without me being right on them, correcting them every second. And then I get three new people that are brand new. And now I have to come up with, how does my class help the new people understand what I'm doing and what we're doing without boring to tears. The people that have been there for four months, I think that's it. How do I keep it fresh, you
- [23:08]
B
say is the biggest reward?
- [23:10]
A
All my students, I have a book full of cards, letters, drawings, they say, and they give me the nicest things, and they make me feel so happy. If I'm having a rough day. A child just drew a hand like they do in class. This person is maybe six, seven. And they had to assign each finger as a person in their life that is in their support system. And I was the middle finger. I mean, come on. Come on. I almost cried. I was like, I'm in your support system.
- [23:46]
B
That's nice. Yeah. How many times a week do you train for yourself?
- [23:51]
A
I'm training four days a week on average. Yeah. I was lucky enough to do well at our last big knack. I came in third. Wow. So that puts me in line to maybe make a world team if I keep having results like that.
- [24:04]
B
So is that your goal? Is that your goal?
- [24:08]
A
It is my goal. I would love to one day represent the US for the veteran world championship. So I'm getting close. Very happy.
- [24:16]
B
And you could even do it at your age. I guess fencers can do it at an older age as well, right?
- [24:21]
A
Yeah. Because this sport is so inclusive. I think I sent you, in our research an article about how fencing and helps the aging generation. It really opens pathways in your mind because you're thinking differently. You're thinking so quickly, and you're thinking differently. Then you can step on the strip, and your bills and your marriage and whatever you're worried about just leaves. And you have to focus on this thing. And it's so good for the aging population. And we have many chances to compete nationally, regionally, and internationally as older people. My mentor, Betty Graham, the first time I met her and fenced her, she had a little do rag on her head, and she was in her 60s, and I thought to myself, oh, I'm gonna have to not hurt her. She's so cute. She was offering everyone banana bread. And then we put our masks on, and this woman took me apart. I'm telling you, she makes every world team, and I always go watch her fence. And she's in her 80s now, and she's still going oh, my God.
- [25:27]
B
Oh, that's so good. Wow.
- [25:30]
A
She's my hero, for sure.
- [25:32]
B
All right, there's hope for all of us.
- [25:35]
A
And you can start like me. I started very late and I'm already possibly going to make a world team this year, so come on. Wow. You can do it. It's really fun.
- [25:46]
B
Fantastic. On that note, I'm so happy that I spoke to you. Now when I watch, I could get a little bit of an idea of what's going on. Not much.
- [25:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. You just watch and enjoy. Sometimes it's so fast, even me, I just listen to what the referee says. They give the point. I go, oh, yeah, that was the point. There we go.
- [26:05]
B
Wow.
- [26:05]
A
So nice to meet you.
- [26:07]
B
So nice. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed it.
- [26:11]
A
It was fun. Thanks for having me.
- [26:14]
B
I learned a lot in this segment. Such a fascinating sport. At least I know something about fencing now. I hope you do, too. There are links in the show notes to Pam's Club and to the US Fencing website. I hope you take advantage of it. And if you enjoyed this episode, please like and share. I'm Elafazeri and I'll see you next time on How Much Can I Make?