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- [00:02]
Caroline
Welcome to how to Decorate from Ballard Designs, a weekly podcast all about the trials and triumphs of decorating and redecorating your home.
- [00:09]
Michael S. Smith
I'm Caroline.
- [00:10]
Caroline
I'm on the marketing team.
- [00:11]
Taryn
And I'm Taryn, and I'm a product designer.
- [00:13]
Liz
I'm Liz. I head up the creative team.
- [00:15]
Michael S. Smith
We're your hosts.
- [00:16]
Caroline
Join the expert team at Ballard Designs for tips, tricks and tales from interior designers, stylists, and other talents in the design world.
- [00:23]
Taryn
Plus, we'll answer your decorating dilemmas at the end of each episode.
- [00:25]
Liz
We love answering your questions, so don't forget to email us@podcastallardesigns.net now, on with.
- [00:31]
Caroline
The show, we are honored. Today's guest, legendary interior designer Michael S. Smith. He launched his business in Los Angeles in 1990, and in nearly 35 years creating spaces for his clients. He's become known for his encyclopedic knowledge of antiques, his eye for bringing traditional and modern elements together. He's been on The Architectural Digest 8100 list seven times on Alist, and in 2010, was appointed to the Committee for the Preservation of the White House by President Obama. He's also redecorated the White House during the Obama years, which he details in his book, Designing History, the Extraordinary Art and Style of the Obama White House. In total, Michael has seven books, including his most recent, which was published last month. Michael S. Smith, Classic by design. Michael, welcome to the show.
- [01:23]
Michael S. Smith
Thank you. I'm actually. I think I'm on the AD hall of Fame. I think I got kicked off the list. Yeah. Retired.
- [01:33]
Liz
Well, you level certain times.
- [01:35]
Caroline
I love this. You know, that's a lot.
- [01:38]
Michael S. Smith
Yeah, I think. I know it's either. I have to think it's either. I'm in either the Rock and Roll hall of Fame or the ad. I always get those two confused.
- [01:45]
Caroline
Yes.
- [01:46]
Michael S. Smith
But thanks for having me, you guys.
- [01:48]
Caroline
So thrilled. And I've been wanting to have you on the show for so long because obviously anyone who has read a shelter magazine loves design books. If they don't know that it's your work, they are familiar with your work because there's so many rooms that just interviewing your portfolio, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that one. Oh, yep. I've had that pinned on my bulletin board before. And so I think everyone will definitely recognize some spaces.
- [02:18]
Michael S. Smith
Good. No, no, no. I'm happy. I'm happy to. To talk to you guys. And I love Ballard stuff. We all do. It's great. And yeah, ask away. What can I. What can I say that you haven't.
- [02:29]
Caroline
Already said, well, there's lots of wisdom we are gonna get out of you.
- [02:36]
Taryn
Thank you for being on the show.
- [02:38]
Caroline
Bye.
- [02:39]
Michael S. Smith
Yeah, bye.
- [02:40]
Caroline
Well, it's such a beautiful book that you put out into the world, and it has such a variety of projects, which was so exciting to see. I mean, glamorous penthouses in Manhattan, almost rustic salt box home in East Hampton, a chateau in Provence compound in Hawaii. I mean, your work is literally all over the globe. But it's fun to see how you have interpreted. Interpreted those locales differently and your clients differently, because there's obviously some threads throughout all of the projects in the book, but there's so many differences, too. So maybe just to start, you know, this is your seventh book now, so what were you looking to say in this most recent. This most recent one?
- [03:24]
Michael S. Smith
And that's a very good question. I think that, you know, I've. I such a. My process is sort of funny for me internally, because I think that I'm always trying to kind of, you know, every project I'm trying to do something a little bit different, trying to be a little bit truer to the house, the place, the client, and kind of fuse it together and kind of paint a portrait in a weird way. You know, I did the White House book, so that took a, you know, a little bit of time and. And took me out of my norm of kind of doing a yearbook, you know, a yearbook, but like a. Every couple years, a kind of snapshot of where my practice and what I'm working on now is. And so I think this was something that I wanted to really do. And I had probably about eight or 10 years of work to sort of choose from and just to see kind of where the process and my work had evolved to. Right. So I think that it's also, for me, kind of a great exercise because I can, like, photograph the work, look at the work, and then kind of let it go. Right. So it's like every little detail that I still want to perfect or every chair I want to recover or something, I want to move closer to the window or a different. Different painting or whatever, it's sort of fixed. It's sort of done. I have to kind of let it go and let it be released. And so for me, that's really helpful. And then it gives me a little bit of distance to look back and say, okay, this. Wow, that's not bad. That actually worked out. That looks really pretty. And so for all those reasons, I think a book is a really good object and a kind of record. And I think that I took longer to produce this than normally. It took a couple years. I sort of started it at the tail end of COVID and I had some time to really reflect on the work I wanted to put in there. And you're right, there's diverse work, and I wanted to work. Wanted to wait. In some cases, like the chateau, I wanted to wait till it was done so I could include it, because I just wanted to sort of look at kind of what I've been doing for the last eight, 10 years and kind of, you know, as I say, take almost a snapshot so I can kind of look at it, and then hopefully it'll be helpful for other people to look at it and kind of, you know, derive some, I don't know, inspiration or at least understand kind of where I'm going and see if it helps them to sort of clarify where they're going. Right.
- [05:55]
Caroline
You said something in there that was so interesting. Well, many things, but in particular, you were talking. You're talking about.
- [06:02]
Michael S. Smith
I think all of it was super interesting.
- [06:04]
Caroline
Yeah, of course. No, but I. You said something along the lines of, like, once you photograph it and it's done, you're sort of, like, not picking it apart anymore and, you know, trying to tweak it. And I'm curious if the process of photographing it. I mean, you know, we all work a lot with photography, too, and oftentimes a room photographs very differently than what it is like in real life. So I'm curious if you sort of think about the project differently after it's photographed, because it's. Does it maybe look different in your mind?
- [06:38]
Michael S. Smith
It's a good question. I mean, I think. I think it's just the process of, like, having that it's done enough. Right. That it's finished, that, you know, I don't. There's a lot of people who like to photograph work right when it's finished, and I actually don't. I like it to kind of. I like people to live with it. I like them to add their own touch to it. I like it to, you know, they buy art for the room or they add things which are personal to the room. I. I like that more because I want. To your point? I don't want this cold sort of, you know, record of just me. I think it's like, you know, that for me, the interest is, like, where the client and the house kind of join, because I think that's, you know, it's like. It's an interesting thing. I think in an Instagrammable era, everything is so much about this image. And like, look, this is what I did, this is what I did. But I think oftentimes this idea that decoration is. It's, you know, it's craft, it's not art, right? If I wanted to do stuff without a person who I work for or a house having impact on what I'm doing or steering or kind of helping me to carve out what I'm doing, then I would be a sculptor or a painter or something, right? Like, I think part of what I love is doing stuff with other people's tastes and their children and their dogs and what they have to deal with and how it works for them, because I think it's just more interesting and diverse. I think I would get very bored if I just produced, like, endless loops of, like, what I think is pretty and what is important to me or, you know what I mean, or creating some idea of how people should live. I think I like to merge, you know, kind of come to the table with what I think is helpful and important and then merge it with other people's, you know, expectations or dreams or, you know, real technical needs of how they live in a house, right? They have three kids, two dogs, they cook. They don't cook, they collect art, they don't collect art. Like, all of those things help to kind of carve out what ultimately is the project. And I think that's what's really interesting, right? Like, just to produce something that's flat and two dimensional and not living is something that's not interesting. And so the idea of photography of a moment where it's living is very interesting because it kind of freezes that. And then I can look at it where it's ongoing, right? It's an ongoing thing. And people's houses evolve. And, you know, now I'm interestingly working for the children of clients I've had who I did, like their childhood rooms, and now I'm doing houses for them, their children, you know, so that evolution and also seeing how people take furniture they had in one house and then they take it to another house, and then all of that, I think, is what's really the most interesting stuff. It's the variables. It's the unexpected, right? It's the. It's the. The things that you get thrown at and you have to catch and kind of make workable in the book as.
- [09:45]
Caroline
You'Re, you know, describing your various projects. You. And there's. There's some of this in the introduction too, but you Talk about, I guess, sort of assigning periods or sort of antiques to different clients. Like, I really zeroed in on, you know, Regency for this person because sort of evoked what they were trying to achieve. So. And. And, you know, I know early in your career, you worked for an art dealer, so I'm wondering if you could just kind of describe for us how you categorize certain antiques in your mind and, like, what. How you sort of assign them, I suppose, to different client spaces.
- [10:33]
Michael S. Smith
Well, I mean, I think it's. Again, it's really personal to. I think it's. It's really people's taste. Right. And it's a house, right. So if you have a Spanish house, you could bring, you know, a bunch of English furniture to the table that you had, and then I have to create the bridge of how those go together. Right. And there's, like, a tradition of stuff like that. Right. So you look at, like, houses in, like, what people think of Santa Barbara or, you know, sort of Los Angeles houses, where people put in English furniture and you do things with fabric and color and things which make those two kind of harmonious and work together. But I think that it's not so much assigning as kind of being sensitive to what people respond to. Right. And so I think, you know, the house has a lot to do with it. I mean, I think that if. If I'm always. You're always a little bit better, and you always have a little bit better of a head start if there's a kind of harmony, right. So if you. If you can have a few things that kind of help you, you know, that kind of, like, undermine or kind of underline, rather, the esthetic, the, you know, the sort of. Already what's there. Right. So the house has a sort of vibe, and it's very classical or, you know, in the south, there's, like, very traditional houses. And if you have English furniture that works really well, it can be hard to. So that's the obvious, right? So those are the things that really help you to define it and make it workable and kind of have the interior be reflective of the exterior and kind of really, you know, make it strong. But again, if somebody brings to it other things, if you. If you have a very traditional house and you love really modern furniture, that is great. You just have to sort of create the bridge and balance the two with how you put it together. And I think that's to the end point. I think that's what makes it interesting. Right. That's the thing I love Is the putting it together and making it work and harmonious and kind of balance.
- [12:35]
Caroline
Yeah. So you're sort of using the different. Your knowledge of the antiques to help blend their style with their house's style and, you know, create this. This language together. Do you. Is there maybe some. For those of us who don't have your knowledge of antiques yet, what advice could you give us about maybe looking for antiques or, you know, how to identify what we like and what would work in our space? There's so much.
- [13:08]
Michael S. Smith
And I mean, I mean, that's such a. No, I know. It is intimidating. I. I think, I think. Look, I think one of the things that's interesting is to. There's so many sort of regional auctions, and there's so much. There's so many, you know, there's. Every kind of region has a series of auction houses, and there are real values to be found in those auction houses. But also you see kind of a breadth of things. You sort of see furniture and collections that belong to other people kind of in your. In your region, and you kind of see what else people have used. And in historic houses, by visiting historic houses, I also think in house museums, I think you get to see kind of what other people have mixed with this sort of local architecture. I think that's really helpful. But I also think you shouldn't be make choices that are not personal to you. I mean, it's, you know, it's hard to convey. It's a longer thing that I can do in a podcast, but I think that, you know, this idea, you. You kind of have to pick things and buy things you love, and I think it's. I think that's more important, but I think to educate your eye to look and see what's out there, to see what has been done before for. In terms of the kind of houses that, you know, if you. Again, if you buy a kind of traditional kind of colonial house, what do people who have lived in those houses, how have they lived in them in the past? How do great decorators or people in your region kind of, you know, how do they live in those houses and what inspiration can you take from that? But I think people can get tripped up into trying to do something that's not authentic to them. And I think some of the prettiest and most interesting houses are like someone who lives in a very traditional house but has very contemporary class, classic taste, almost like design within reach. Taste can be really interesting in a traditional house. Right? It can. It can work, but it's. It's just the exercise and how you get those two things which feel so different to kind of work together is what's hard. And that's where you know, people can do things themselves and, and be brave. But I also think it helps to have like someone who knows how to do it professionally because I think it just is, it's just, it's a, you know, it's a craft as I said. Right. So I'm not gonna. I'm not going to self prescribe medicine to myself and I'm not going to can't fix my own car. I'm going to go to a professional. But that being said, I want to try to help define what's personal to me and what I derive pleasure and joy from in my own house before I recreate a house that is for somebody else or based on what somebody else has done before me. It's hard though. I'm talking about something that huge brushstrokes and it's really hard for people. But you know, I think that's why my business exists and that's why you guys exist to help edit for people and put together visuals of people so they can kind of understand what something is going to look like and how it's going to feel to them. Personally.
- [16:15]
Liz
I would really love to talk about some of the projects that you feature in the book. The one one that surprised me right off the bat was. Well, there were like a handful of them, honestly. But I want to talk first about the home of Shonda Rhimes in, in New York. It's such a great look into such a wonderful creator and how you interpreted what she would want from her space. And I think what really surprised me was there's a formality and beautifulness in kind of the common spaces and some lush wallpapers with marquetry and just beautiful detailings. And then you turn the page and you get into the primary suite which is just all Hollywood Regency, all silver, calm, collected. What was it like building out this space for her? And what was it like to create a space that. That had such differences when as you move through them.
- [17:31]
Michael S. Smith
Listen, she's amazing and she wrote this very incredible forward to the book, which I can't. I've read it once and it kind of made me cry so I can't read it again. But I mean it's so kind of wonderful and so deep and thoughtful and lyrical which is just exactly how she is. So it's easy to see how her writing is so reflective of the person she is, which would make sense. But I think in this house, I think it was something about wanting this kind of classic New York apartment, right? I mean, I think that she wanted a sort of movie apartment, right? So I think this idea of some rooms are very much a. They're very practical for her, right? There's a room for her children. There's places for her to write. There's a combination, a number of places for her to write in the apartment. Because she sort of moves around. And I think she wanted it to really convey this sort of romantic vision of old New York of like a Park Avenue apartment, which it does. And then there's also, like a half a cup of Bridgerton, because she was doing Bridgerton when we were doing it. And then this idea of, you know, a movie Park Avenue living room may not be a movie Park Avenue bedroom. And so I think it was great to give her this kind of very creamy, sort of almost 30s romantic bedroom, which is different than the rest of the rooms. But I think that is also kind of what you see in a movie, right? About a. Like, even a black and white movie of. Of a kind of New York apartment. That kind of, you know, kind of archetype, idealized sort of vision of that. And so that was something really fun, but also really easy because it's a vision like that kind of. We all share. We've all seen enough old movies. We've all seen enough sort of visions of what that in our mind's eye would be. And so that was something that was really, really easy. And for her, I could be braver and more colorful because she loves color. She's not frightened of color. She has some really interesting art that she's collected over the years that, you know, gives it extra resonance and depth. And again, it's sort of. There are rooms that are really used by her, and she has children and young children. And so it has a. It's sort of fitted to her in many ways that are both eccentric and then many that are quite classical, right? Like, so she uses it if she comes to New York and she has to get dressed for a big event. And so therefore, her bedroom is really glamorous as a backdrop for that, right? That's sort of how she sort of uses it. And that an apartment like that, that is not an apartment that someone lives in all the time, has a lot of flexibility in the sense that it's not, you know, you get a different set of requirements and a different sort of freedom about making it more of a kind of romantic ideal, right? More Of a fantasy.
- [20:46]
Caroline
Yeah. You mentioned in the book that you had worked with her previously before doing this New York apartment. So how, how was the New York apartment different from your previous projects? Or maybe it was more similar than not?
- [21:04]
Michael S. Smith
No, I mean, I think again, I think they, I've worked with her a bunch and we're friends and I think she has a concept, you know, like she has a concept for a house in the country outside of New York. She has a concept for her house in LA that are about the architecture and a sense of place. But then they're very much more about practicality, utility, you know, you know, rooms for her kids to study in and storage and things like that that are more, you know, day to day practical concerns because they're where she really lives and this is something that she uses. But it is, it's an apartment. It's, you know, it's not very big. It's only like two bedroom apartment. But it, it has a kind of, you know, it's kind of like a big little apartment, which I love. And also it just was. It again, it was more. Less grounded and less essential. I mean there's still a lot of practicality. She's a very practical and serious person. But it also had, could also be a little bit more whimsical because she's not living there every day and spending, you know, and having to store backpacks and kids clothes and winter clothes and you know, it just, it had, it had a little more flexibility, which was fun.
- [22:33]
Caroline
I loved that. East Hampton, or I'm sorry, not East Hampton, the East river space that was on the water. Would you tell us, would you tell our listeners about that? Because it was, you know, you, you get these gorgeous views in the photography of obviously what the apartment has. I loved seeing how the view sort of influences the furnishing on the inside. They sort of work together.
- [23:04]
Michael S. Smith
Well, I think it's. Look, it's a very historic apartment. It had been in Midi, you know, tough medi. Sort of versions. It used to belong to Gloria Vanderbilt and it was her apartment. It, you know, it's had, it's had all of this, you know, very glamorous, very fashionable people living in it and owning it over time. It originally was three stories and now it's two stories. So it had been cut into like two apartments. And I think for the clients who bought it, they were absolutely determined. You know, they wanted a view and they had to be like on Fifth Avenue looking at the park. And I said to them, look, the east river is so Incredible because it's so active with this, like, you know, boats going on the river and this reflected light and architecture on different times of the day. And it's just like this incredible dramatic space, like almost like you're in this bird's nest overlooking the river in all different directions. And so, you know, I said, listen, maybe I'm crazy, but let's go look in this apartment. Absolutely nowhere where you want to be. And they were like, oh my God, this is the most beautiful apartment. Because also it's. They again share this thing, which is an apartment that they live and they use, but it's not their main house. And it's sort of 5,000 square feet of interior space and 5,000 square feet of terrace. So it's. It's sort of again, like, you know, not. They didn't have to have tons and tons of children's bedrooms and tons and tons of storage space. You know, it's. It could have this sort of idyllic, kind of almost cinematic kind of use to it. And these rooms are like, three of the rooms are basically like the size of ballrooms, which is kind of crazy. And so it was like, how do we give them multiple uses? So we keep the space and make it interesting and complex, but we get function, right? So we have like, what was the formal dining was like a dining room, television room. We have like what was, you know, just this kind of upstairs huge space is now like a television area slash guest room. And there was no attempt to like chop it up. It was like, oh, at one end you have this big kind of sofa that looks at a big screen television over the fireplace, but at the other end you have like this four poster bed. So it's sort of like, you know, has. Were sort of saying really clearly, let's keep this incredible space and give it, you know, distinctive areas, but almost making it like a kind of romantic idea of like a loft in a way. And so for me, that was really interesting. And also there was all this architecture and history in the space, which I wanted to keep. But these are kind of interesting and curious people. So I wanted to kind of have, you know, variety of stuff. So there's a. They have a really interesting art collection. And then the furniture is really diverse. So it's still. You come in and you took a picture of it black and white, it looks like, wow, this could be from the 20s or 30s when the apartment was conceived and built or. But you look at it in color and you realize there's a lot of other stuff going on, right. A lot of other crafted furniture and art, you know, that's really contemporary and stuff. So it's. So it's. The rooms in themselves are these big individual spaces with architecture. But you kind of. But I kind of made them into really livable kind of loft like space. I think people sometimes get tripped up on this fear of scale and that scale is really scary. And it's going to feel formal and whatever. And I think it's not true. I think you can live in big space and grand space but if you make it interesting and cool enough, it has that. It just becomes about breath and not volume. Right. It feels less formal and you feel kind of good in the space if you're lucky enough, which I wish, I mean I'm not but I wish, you know, anyone who's lucky enough to have that kind of ceiling height and windows and stuff is, it's, you know, magical.
- [27:06]
Caroline
Yeah, you, you mentioned like, oh, it's so big. But it's funny, like looking at the photographs, it felt so cozy to me. Which obviously, you know, they're for so many rooms. You know, it is big but you know, there was like that cozy little spot in the bay window and I think like.
- [27:26]
Michael S. Smith
Right, right, the. Well, no, that exists. But I mean taking like the big dining room and cutting it instead of having like this very formal thing with like a long table just surrounded by chairs, which would be great, but how useful is it, right. Instead taking the table and it's a classic antique beautiful table but with like metal contemporary chairs in front of the window where the light is. And that becomes like you eat every meal there. And then you have this cozy sofas, looking at a television. Right. And bookcases and a fireplace and it becomes this really wonderful multi use room. And that is something that I think is, you know, kind of that makes it infinitely more interesting and luxurious as opposed to being stiff and static and just a room you walk through.
- [28:14]
Caroline
I loved, I loved that like garden inspired bedroom in there with the, your Jasper wall covering. Right? It's your wall covering on the wall.
- [28:29]
Michael S. Smith
No, no, no, that's like racy Chinese, like classic Chinese. You know, scenes of like making silk or something. You know, like.
- [28:36]
Caroline
Oh, maybe it's the guest room. Right, with the green carpet. There's one with like the green card.
- [28:43]
Michael S. Smith
Oh yeah. Okay. That is Jasper. That's. That's their bed. That's the. Yeah, that's the owner's primary bedroom. Yeah. Which, the floral. That. Yeah, the stripe. That's like a floral.
- [28:51]
Caroline
It's really pretty it's, it's, you know, has, yeah, it looks like it could be amongst this hydrangea garden or something. It's just so, yeah, no, no, no.
- [29:03]
Michael S. Smith
And that was about, again, because it's this really beautiful architectural space, but kind of making it like in, you know, I'm a big, I love pattern on the walls of, like, rooms, especially a bedroom, because I think you're sort of, you know, you sort of wrap the room. It feels kind of, to your point, cozy or it feels like calming. You're kind of, you know, and you, you're in New York, which is like this, this sensory kind of overload. And you go to your bedroom and your bedroom looks at the water, but you also have this, you're kind of enveloped in this very calm and sort of fresh color, which I think is really, really pretty. Now. I really like that.
- [29:43]
Caroline
I was curious about, you know, because you also did the Obama White House. And I was curious if it's how you approach decorating the space differently when it is sort of a, like not a personal home, but a space that maybe others, you know, like the embassy.
- [30:06]
Michael S. Smith
No, no, it's a, yeah, no, it's a really good question. I mean, I think, look, I think, and I've done several embassies, including, you know, the one that we had in Madrid, the French embassy. I've worked on the Danish embassy. So like, I, you know, I kind of know, and I, and I did the Governor's Mansion in Illinois for Governor and Mrs. Pritzker. So no, I, I, I, I feel very comfortable in that idea. And I think what it is, is trying to do something which is both personal for you, but also not so specific that the next person, the next governor, the next president, the next ambassador can come in and make themselves at home. Right. And so, and listen, I had the luxury of also kind of in real time understanding that. Right. So the White House had been done beautifully BY President and Mrs. Bush before the Obamas took the White House, and they had left it in beautiful order. And so, you know, I understood that it, you know, I understood by seeing that, but also just by, you know, intellectually kind of sitting down and thinking, hey, how can you make these spaces feel more like what they're supposed to be, which is, you know, sort of, you know, kind of pulled together, elegant, beautiful. But again, I'm not going to paint a room orange or red or something that's, you know, there's not going to be a hello Kitty dining room or something because things like that, which are cool and you could do for yourself, and you should, if you want to, really don't have a place in something that is for greater use. Right. That you're basically, you know, kind of staying there. But it's basically America's house, the state of Illinois as the American Embassy. They're not yours. And so I think the task then becomes about making them better and making them cohesive and making them fresh, but also making them ready for the next person who's going to come in. And that's what we tried to do. And again, fitting into a long line of other people who've done that. In the case in particular, you know, the Bushes had done such a great job of that and we sort of, you know, built on what they had done and you know, kind of that's, that's sort of the job. Very much the job. So you want the people who live there for four years or eight years, which was, you know, which we did. But then at the end of the day, in a three hour turnover, we were able to turn the house over and somebody else could come in relatively quickly and, and, you know, sleep there.
- [32:47]
Liz
A three hour, three hour turnover.
- [32:49]
Michael S. Smith
That.
- [32:49]
Liz
That sounds outrageous.
- [32:51]
Caroline
That does sound outrageous.
- [32:53]
Michael S. Smith
That's what it is.
- [32:55]
Liz
Wow. That takes, that takes rentals to a whole other level.
- [33:00]
Michael S. Smith
Well, it doesn't because. Well, in the case of the White House, it doesn't because it's sort of the stuff that's there kind of stays there. It's just the combination, right? So it's like if you look at now, you know, the rooms that the Bidens have or rooms that the Trumps had before them, and rooms that like, all that furniture really belongs to the White House. So if somebody wanted to go and recreate pretty much, you know, George W. Bush's, you know, guest room, that stuff is on storage in Washington. So you could do that. It's just. So the only thing that you do is you recover and recover and recover. Like that's kind of what people do every time is. But, but the stuff, the house basically stays pretty much intact. So you're taking your clothes personal stuff, your books, you know, things that, that are meaningful too. That's with what you're bringing too. But it pretty much stays, you know, and then it just, it's, you know, the beds that the Obama stayed in the frame had been John Kennedy's bed and then it blot before that. You know, it's like, so, so things just, they sort of cycle through history and they come in and out of the house, but they belong to the house.
- [34:12]
Caroline
Is it fun or frustrating to use items that are essentially not your choice? I mean, you're repurposing what's already there, which are great, you know, pieces. But is that. I mean, I would imagine that's kind of a challenge.
- [34:27]
Michael S. Smith
It's a challenge, but it's also, if you love history, it's amazing because it's like every single thing was not just what it was. It's also, you know, I mean, and like, we met, we made, like, sets of chairs with Bill Allman, who was then the curator of the White House, that Baker Furniture made this, like, you know, there was one chair in the White house collection, this 19th century chair, and we made copies of it. Right. So there was a set of it of chairs, and then it was used, you know, in every presidency since. So when you see every president since interviewed in the White House, they're always sitting in the chairs we made. Right. So. So that's really successful because it is. And listen, I think it was very much Mrs. Obama's, you know, kind of position from the very beginning. It's like, how will this be for the next family? How will this be for the next, you know, if they have children, if they have, you know, how will this be workable for them? Let's not do something so specific that it can't be, you know, adaptable to that.
- [35:33]
Caroline
What about the art collection? Because you get to, you know, borrow and loan some of the most spectacular pieces. So.
- [35:41]
Liz
Yeah, and the Obama collection, I mean, how do you even pay groundbreaking in how many modern pieces it had on that?
- [35:47]
Michael S. Smith
We were the first ones. And that was this idea that I had of, look, how do you take a building that has so much history, that you have a president for a city who are so respectful of that history and that tradition, and how do you make it personal? But not forever? And that was this art program. So I think the Clintons had maybe borrowed one painting, maybe they borrowed a Helen Frankenthaler painting. And I think the Bushes had borrowed one contemporary painting, but they had borrowed a lot of Western art because that was personal to them. And so for the Obamas, I think this idea of borrowing all these pieces of contemporary art that were, you know, in dead storage, I mean, that's another criteria. It's like, you can't take someone off something off the wall. It has to, you know, be in storage. And oftentimes a piece would be lent to a. To an exhibition or something from the institution. So we had to kind of return it. And, you know, because it was needed to go somewhere else. It was either going to go on the wall in the institution or was going to be part of a traveling exhibition. So that was something over the eight years that we kind of always dealt with. But I think that. Look at. I think that was a way of sewing incredibly important work that would be in storage. I think it was a way of personalizing and making it feel more interesting and complex than just having, you know, room after room of portraits of, you know, of historic presidents, which is a little daunting in your private quarters. Right. Like, you know, you don't need to see Dolly Madison when you're, you know, I don't know, having friends over for New Year's Eve or something. So I think all of that was something that we balanced, and it was great. And it was. It was. It really energized the space. It was interesting. And every time there was a state dinner and a foreign head of state got to come see, you know, and be in these rooms and see, you know, incredible examples of our sort of artistic visions as. As Americans and all these diverse things. Some, you know, many traditional, many very contemporary. But, you know, I think it. It. It was reflective of sort of the best of America, which was the idea. And then, you know, when they left, before they left, truck came and took it all back and put it all back into storage. So I think that was really successful because it got to be personalized for the next president and the next president after that. So I think that was a really good way of showing, you know, the sort of all these different voices and, And. And giving the building a new kind of energy, but also keeping it on its ever, you know, kind of evolving course as America's House. Right. Which I think is really great. It was fun.
- [38:51]
Taryn
Was that your most proud kind of job, in a way? Just because, I mean, how many people get to do the White House?
- [38:58]
Michael S. Smith
Oh, no, I know. I mean, yes. I mean, I. You know, people ask me that all the time, and I'm so oddly focused on what I'm doing going forward that I don't really. I think there's something really dangerous about being obsessed with what you've already done and thinking, wow, that was my golden moment. Because it's like, you know, I'm so much more interested in what I'm doing now and what's moving forward. And that's that thing of doing this book, which is, on one hand, it's amazing, and I love it, and I get to look at it, and it's like, it's heavy. Like, that book is literally physically heavy. Right. So. And I look at it and it's, you know, I'm very proud of what I've achieved, but I'm also just like, you know, it's like when I do book signings, I just was in like Dallas and Houston. It's great. And I see all these people who I haven't seen in a while, and it's super fun, but it's also like, I gotta go back to work. Like, this is great. I'm glad that we're talking about stuff that I've done already. But for me, the excitement is like, well, what's the next thing I have to do and what's the next challenge and how am I going to do this and am I going to do this better next time? Or am I going to be working with an artist or a craftsperson or, you know, what am I going to do next? Which I think is really interesting. But I think that's anything creative. I think the fun is the doing it.
- [40:17]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Michael S. Smith
The reflection and the sort of glory of it is great. But, you know, like, anything, you guys will interview, interview me and in two weeks interview someone else. And my book will be out there. And then my book will be on the markdown section and we'll move forward. You know, I mean, it's like, it's. Yeah, it's good. It's about the. It's the evolution of like, you know, going forward, which I find really intriguing.
- [40:41]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [40:42]
Taryn
Well, before that, I did want to.
- [40:45]
Michael S. Smith
Go on the markdown pile.
- [40:46]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [40:47]
Taryn
I did want to jump into a few more of these vacation style homes that you have in here just to hear more of your perspective on them. Because you have a beautiful compound in Hawaii. Can you kind of talk us through that? And the process of almost designing for these very open. These homes that are open to. To the air. And so it's a. Different elements.
- [41:09]
Michael S. Smith
No, no, it's interesting. I think, again, I'm a very big believer in your houses. I have houses which are very different from each other, and I love that. I think it's something that's sort of like the luxury of it is that I go from one place to another and it feels really distinctive. And I think in that same way, when I'm in Hawaii, I don't want it to feel like house, you know, that the same people have the same taste, the same look, the same everything as they have in their other house. Now, some people actually like that. That's an actual thing. Right. Where people want Familiarity. They want. They want. They perceive it as comfortable that they have the same thing everywhere. I want to, you know, be. If I'm in Hawaii, I want to be in Hawaii, right? I want. I want an immersive experience, right? I really want to be, you know, if I'm. If I'm someplace anywhere in the world, like in London, I want to drink tea, not coffee, right? Like, I want to. I really want to go all in. And so I think that is reflected in that kind of work. And then I also think I want to make it, you know, more multi dimensional, right? So if there's a tradition of something like Japanese art, which is so omnipresent in historic Hawaiian houses, then I want to have that in a house in Hawaii. I want to have. I want to have a lot of flavor, right? I want to have as much sort of interest and quirkiness as I can. I don't want to have like a generic, like, what you think of as, like, wow, you know, Hawaiian hotel kind of thing. I want to push it and make it personal in the same way I would, you know, house that you live in all the time. I want that to have its own distinctive voice and be special. And so that's the fun, right, is to kind of say, wow, what is here? What inspiration is here that has been before, what kind of architecture and pattern and who settled this island and who was here before, and what have they left? And what can we kind of re. Tap into and kind of put into the mix? So this feels like it's something that reveals itself to you over time as opposed to something that's really one dimensional.
- [43:29]
Liz
You know, you touched on what I think is the through line between all of these projects. Besides, you know, your brilliant design. I think that it's a sense of place, right? And there is. There are two homes that I'd love for you to speak to, because I feel like they really embody a sense of place. And they're the. The Mountain Home and the Mallorca home. Two totally different locations. One in the mountains in the Rockies and the other in Mallorca with gorgeous views of the sea. And it totally looks like a set for Agatha Christie.
- [44:11]
Michael S. Smith
It does. You're right. Well, I think in the case of the Mountain House, look. So I had done a house for the same clients in the same place in Montana, and it sort of. They wanted to build the house from the ground up, which we did, and they wanted something that was contemporary in the sense that it was really suited for them and their children and how they lived in the house. And for me, I think having been there before with the other house, it was very apparent to me that when you're for the most of the time that they're there, you're looking at it very white, snow covered landscape, right? There was no, not a lot of color. The ideal time for them to go and ski and spend time as a family is when it's the most kind of exterior is kind of quite bleak, right. So the idea was, how do you create this interior landscape of texture? I mean, if you look at it, there's like a modern tapestry and ceramic work and all the art is sort of has dimension to it. It's not just flat, right? It's like texture on texture. It's like wood and then ceramic and metal and everything is sort of very textural. And I think it's about again, as opposed to being so reliant on outside and looking at an ever evolving landscape, it's really looking inside and saying, look at all these pieces of art that have color and all this texture. Just trying to keep your interest visually when the landscape is pretty static. And so for me, that's what I thought would be interesting. And how do you take a landscape that has very little color and how do you make it colorful on the inside so that you feel. And I think, look at. There's a kind of cliche of how like a mountain house looks, right? It's like. It's like a, you know, orange chandelier and red and brown Ralph Lauren blanket fabric and leather. You know, it's like we all know Navajo blankets. It's all this sort of obvious kind of mountain aesthetic that people often draw from. And people really can sometimes love that. In the case of this, this is like something different, right? Which is. I wanted it to feel mountainy and again, to sort of hit this thing to the ground, the sense of place. But I wanted it also to be interesting so that every time you went, you sort of saw something that was a little bit different and compelling. And when you were inside on a cold night or coming home from skiing and you were kind of tired that you had this texture and this enveloping kind of series of visual things to sort of, you know, keep your interest every time. So that was that. And then the Mallorca house is something. I had also done a house in Mallorca for the same people, but this was something different. And it was a house that a friend of mine had built for redone. And then they were so unhappy with it. They sort of turned, like locked it and kind of left it for a long time because they had made it kind of contemporary, but they really felt that it had no more sense of place or soul or whatever. And so when my other friends and clients bought it, they. Who love, you know, kind of everything Mediterranean, they love Capri and they love French pattern and they love tile and they love kind of all these things, it was sort of like, well, how do I make this. This sort of Mediterranean kind of greatest hit hits album, right? Like, how do I. How do I take this thing which has such beautiful physicality right on this bay and this ever, you know, kind of beautiful water? And how do I make it this very romantic series of events and rooms and in some cases, like layered, you know, multiple kind of Mediterranean ideas, right? So there's a room that has this walk covering that was hand painted, that looks like Matisse paintings, and then there's Indian stencil, and then there's Moroccan tile, and there's like all of these different ideas which, you know, kind of make it super romantic. And because the. The position of the house is so dramatic and the view out to the sea is so dramatic that I wanted you to have all of this sort of romantic layering so that again, every time you come, you have a different experience and you kind of see things in a different way, right? The. The landscape is beautiful and it has movement, but it also is relatively static, right? It's. You're looking at. At the sea. And so you're looking at a sea with, you know, are you in a fort in Morocco? Are you in a South of France villa? Are you in, you know, Mallorca in a Spanish bedroom? How do those all combine? And isn't that just kind of fun to do, right? Like, isn't that like a wonderful thing to live with and get to experience all this ever, you know, kind of evolving pattern and color. It's not too much and calm and space in between. So it's not like it's overwhelming, but it's sort of. It's sort of like, you know what I. This is a really weird analogy, but it's like you have coffee and then, you know, you put those flavored coffee, you know, like, you pour, I don't know, like coffee made with hazelnut or whatever. Like, I'm kind of taking something that you already love, and I'm kind of giving it different flavor so you kind of get it. You know, it just makes it that much more appealing and that much more. But I'm giving you multiple Choices I loved.
- [50:07]
Caroline
You know, you were just talking about your Mountain House or the Mountain House project and the types of materials you were using. You know, things with texture. And I'm. Your use of materials is what really I found intriguing. And it was almost like each project had its, like, own, like, language of materials. Like, for example, your house in Los Angeles. There was. There were all these, like, elements of bronze, bronze, sculpture, bronze on your dining room chairs and a coffee table and a lantern and candlesticks. And, you know, all of those. Some of those are not necessarily things you would expect to use bronze as a material or that, you know, kind of metal. And I was just curious if that's something that you're doing intentionally. Is that something that just sort of organically evolves as the project unfolds or how you're thinking about materials? I guess, throughout the project.
- [51:06]
Michael S. Smith
I think everything you're saying all is a factor, right? On one hand, I might be very into a craftsperson. So in my house, there were two craftspeople in France, one who made the lanterns, Philippe Antonius, and one who made other things, Patrice Dangalle, who is amazing. So they're, you know, like, I also can be in love with, like, the stuff, the specific thing, right? Like the coffee table, the lantern, the whatever, and then want it and. And. And find a location for it. But I think. I think it's more, you know, about taking something that was, you know, a very modern space that I'd lived in for a couple years and then moved out to renovate it. And as opposed to having it one uniform thing. How did I. How do I sort of break it into experiences or boxes, essentially, right? So I have, like, this wood box, and I have a gold leaf box, and I have, you know, so. So that I still go through the space in the same way because the space kind of flows into each other. But it's. But there's a reward for each space, right? There's a different feeling in each space. And I think that's what I'm sort of, you know, listen, I think all the houses, the Mountain House, the house of my work at all have that similar thing, which they might be different feelings and there might be different materials, but it's really how these houses are, you know, kind of immersive, how you really feel in them. And it's, again, about balancing the sense of place with a desire for, you know, I mean, to. To. Again, I'm going to go back to my really good flavored coffee story. You know, it's. It's it's this idea that there's coffee, and we love coffee, but, like, you know, each time when you want something slightly different and to keep your interest and to. And to make it more of a romantic idea. Right. I think the best houses at the end of the day are houses that are personal. And even if they're not decorated or they're. But if you've ever gone to a friend's house who has, like, tons of books where they collect something that this passionate about, they're passionate about, or they collect are big gardeners and they have, you know, flowers they've cut in the garden. Like, those things, those expressions that are. That are distinctive and personal are what you're kind of drawn to. So all I'm doing is sort of helping the process. Right. I'm helping you to find a flavor or a, you know, kind of an experience out of a space. And I think that's what good decorators can kind of do, right? Is take you and take elements of you and make those rooms more reflective. Because unless you really have a natural ability to do that, you know, that distinctive sort of infusing rooms with your personality and things which are personal to you, often people find hard. And also people find. I think they're worried they're going to be judged or they're going to be, you know, oh, I have too many books, or I have too many, you know, whatever, or I like orange, and I want everything to be orange. Whatever is personal to you, I think, is a thing you're trying to express yourself and be at peace in your space. And my job is just to kind of untangle those and kind of braid them together in a way that's not only orderly, but stronger because of the, you know, the connections of it.
- [54:40]
Caroline
I think so. And so I think if I. Okay, let me repeat back to you what I am hearing. I love this idea because it sounds like you're. You're kind of saying that, like repeating this certain sort of material, whether it's an artist or something that you like, it's like creating the through line through all the rooms, and it's making it more impactful by using it multiple times and, like, seeing it multiple times.
- [55:08]
Michael S. Smith
Yeah. But also. Or. Or just making you braver. Right. Like, if you like Shonda. So Shonda, in her house in New York had this vision of, you know, again, a kind of Park Avenue vision of. Of an apartment in the living room did not necessarily translate in the same way in the bedroom. Right. So I had to switch channels a little Bit now it's all cohesive because there's connectors of hallways and spaces that are calming, that act as kind of bridges. That's technical, but in terms of, you know, like, it's not like a show house where every room is full on. Like, you have to, you know, you have to balance it. But I think what's interesting is to try to, like that you guys responded to that bedroom and you find it kind of romantic. Means that I did my job, right? Because she loves it. And you see in it what she would want. You see the. You see a kind of movie ideal in a New York bedroom. Right? It's not. It's not. You totally understand it. It's not like it's all like fishing trophies or something. It's not so out of character with what you, in your mind's eye, think that that should be. But there are people who have very specific things that they want and specific ideas they want to convey and specific things they collect. And so my job is to sort of make it better and make it, you know, if it's. If you collect fishing trophies and that's your thing, then what are they shown on? Right? Are they on a beautiful bleached wood background? Are they all on the same format? Are they, you know, or. Or something probably more common is like, how do you frame all your family photos? Right. Like, I think it, you know, I love when people have all these old family photos, new family photos, whatever, and then they frame them all in like a red frame. That's, you know, because framing is also very expensive. Right. So if you can find like an off the shelf or mail order frame, that's nice, that. And maybe you guys have a frame that's great about that. You can, you know, So I love when everything is kind of in the same frame, but the images are slightly different sizes and different eras. Or you take a frame and you paint them yourself. Like, you take a really simple frame and you paint them all two colors of green. And then you sort of, you know, create this pattern with them on your wall. You know, that. That organization, that kind of putting it together in a way that just holds together in a calmer but sort of more orderly way. Something that I think, you know, it can for an extent of like, is your bed messy? Or do you make your bed every day? Right. That's sort of the idea, right? You put it together in a very beautiful way. And is there something on your bed? Is there like a blanket cover or pillows or something that gives you joy that you love that you feel kind of is luxurious for you. Is that something that means something to you? And that, I think, is what good decorators should do is to sort of pull that out of you and kind of reframe it, literally and figuratively, and give it back to you. Not imprint my taste on you or have you, you know, do something that is something you saw at your friend's house, but do something that's personal for you.
- [58:31]
Caroline
Can I ask a final question about color? Because we haven't touched on it, and I just was so intrigued. You know, I think there's so many designers who. You see their space, and you can kind of see, like, what the cohesive color palette is. Like, okay, it's this shade of that and a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and, like, it's. It looks real buttoned up. I felt like your color palettes feel so, like, nuanced and fluid. It wasn't like, okay, my color in the living room is blue and brown. It felt like more evolved, I suppose, as though you weren't necessarily just taking, like, a pattern and pulling out all the colors. I don't know. I was curious how you put your color palettes together and whether you feel like your color palettes are different than other designers. It just, they felt so, like, I said fluid for some reason, like, oh, it's sweet.
- [59:28]
Michael S. Smith
I. I mean, that's interesting. I. You know, I don't know. It's one of those things that's like how you see the world. Like, when you, you know, how much salt and pepper do you put on food? Like, it's sort of like, you know, it's like you season to taste. I mean, I love a good matching color scheme. Don't get me wrong. But I think that I love three colors. Colors. Like, I love a blue and white, but I like a blue and white and lavender. A blue and white and yellow. I also like something in that space that's not, you know, I want to put something in it that. That makes it more compelling, right? So if you go into every room is like blue and white and yellow or blue and white lavender. I want to have a red chair somewhere, or I want something that is about making it more alive and diverse and quirky in some way, because I think people are quirky. And that's going to happen, right? You're going to pin up your kid's photo or, you know, a finger painting thing or something that someone gave you, or your mother's going to give you a vase you hate. And you have to put it in the room. You know, like, there's going to be stuff that is just going to happen. And so for me, I want to kind of turn into that and kind of embrace that because I think, you know, people are messy by nature. And so the very idea of having things in a room that are too perfect, I think it's also daunting, right? I think if you go into a room that's too matchy and kind of perfect, I think you just don't feel comfortable in it. Right. You're not going to read the newspaper or curl up of the book or you watch or be on your iPad in that room. You're just going to kind of walk by it because it's too set. And I think that's something that's really important to me. I think that's sort of not me not doing a great job if it's too. If it's too monotonous and kind of boring.
- [61:25]
Caroline
Well, I loved the way you did. You. You used color. Because I, like I said it felt very nuanced and like a timelessness to it, as though it had evolved over time, which I, you know, I know you want it to, but, you know, it. You're obviously doing something on the front end to make it look perfectly kind of layer, I guess. And I just. It was really like. I think it sort of just challenged the way I think about color in design. So.
- [62:01]
Michael S. Smith
Well, listen, I think colors. You're so kind. Thank you. But I think color. Think people are scared of color, and I think people perceive it as so committing color. You know, like, I have to, like, I have to have a scheme or, you know, it's like it's. It's. I think, again, I think it's hard to make people comfortable with it, but I think you have to kind of find something that's personal right to you. I think you have to paint big squares of color on a wall and live with it for a second and kind of figure it out. And I think. I think so much about decoration now. And listen, to be fair, it's at any level, it's really expensive, right? It's like a really committing thing, and if you don't like it, you have to live with it. And, you know, I think there's risk involved, but I think that going slowly and trying to realize what you like and how you, you know, kind of can interact with color is really great. I think people always paint rooms white, and there. There's a kind of safety about that. I think it's kind of uninteresting, but again, I could tell somebody, oh, there's the new Benjamin Moore color, and it's this kind of purpley color, and you paint the room that color, and then you live in it and you don't like it. So I. You know, I don't. You know, I don't. I think people need to find their own way, and it's. It's hard. It's hard. That's why it's good. If you have professionals who are around or someone, or even a friend who you trust, right. You're gonna. You're not gonna go shopping for a wedding dress alone. Probably. It's good to have somebody kind of weigh in on what, you know, on what color you love, also what color you look good in. I think people often paint rooms of color and they listen. I think it's. I'm conscious of what color is the most flattering for people in a room. You know, I think that's something to be thought of.
- [63:53]
Caroline
And there's this excellent designer who has seven books, and you can learn a lot from those books because they cover everything.
- [64:01]
Michael S. Smith
Great.
- [64:03]
Caroline
Well, thank you so much. We have taken more than enough of your time, but we really appreciate it. So before we wrap up, could you tell everyone where they can find you, follow you and see your work?
- [64:15]
Michael S. Smith
You can follow me on Michael S. Smith on Instagram. You can find the books everywhere, certainly Amazon everywhere. And. But I think those are the best. Those are the best places. Those are the best places. You know, Instagram I love. And I. And I think I try to. I try to show things that I'm thinking about or if I've been somewhere. I try to find something that's inspirational for me, and, you know, it's great. And I love. I love the exercise of it. But listen, and thank you guys for everything you're doing. And I. I'm constantly firing. Finding from the site interesting things and things to paint and redo or use. I mean, practical stuff that I love. So I appreciate.
- [65:04]
Caroline
And we were also gushing before we started recording about your fabric line, because it's incredible.
- [65:11]
Michael S. Smith
Yeah, yeah, my fabric line. Oh, my God, what am I forgetting? Jasper? Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's showrooms all across the country, and we make really interesting furniture and fabric and. No, it's really. It's really good. And then I have collections for de Gournay, a walk, paper and. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff, stuff we do lights for visual comfort. So there's my stuff is.
- [65:32]
Caroline
Yes. In the many irons in the fire.
- [65:35]
Michael S. Smith
My flavored coffee. Yes. My coffee creamers are out there. Flavoring. Flavoring.
- [65:42]
Caroline
Yeah. Making the world more beautiful.
- [65:44]
Michael S. Smith
Yeah, exactly. Flavorful. Okay. Thanks, you guys.
- [65:50]
Caroline
Thank you so much. Thank you.
- [65:51]
Michael S. Smith
What are we going to do next week? Are we going to be amazing?
- [65:54]
Caroline
We're available.
- [65:55]
Taryn
Are you bringing out another book next week?
- [65:57]
Caroline
We'll make time because we can.
- [65:59]
Michael S. Smith
Okay. We'll do Excellent. Okay. Thank you.
- [66:03]
Caroline
And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com to send.
- [66:08]
Taryn
In a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcastallarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space.
- [66:14]
Caroline
And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at ballardesigns.
- [66:18]
Liz
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback.
- [66:24]
Caroline
Until next time, happy decorating.