Loading summary
Caroline
Welcome to how to Decorate from Ballard Designs, a weekly podcast all about the trials and triumphs of decorating and redecorating your home. I'm Caroline. I'm on the marketing team.
Taryn
And I'm Taryn and I'm a product designer.
Liz
I'm Liz. I head of the creative team.
Caroline
We're your hosts. Join the expert team at Ballard Designs for tips, tricks and tales from interior designers, stylists and other talents in the design world.
Taryn
Plus, we'll answer your decorating dilemmas at the end of each episode.
Liz
We love answering your questions, so don't forget to email us@podcastallardesigns.net now on with the show.
Caroline
Okay, our guest today. We have been trying to get you on the podcast for over a year. So we're thrilled to have you here in person at our studio. Cindy Cantley. She's a kitchen expert, principal designer of Cantley and Tolman. She's built an incredible career focusing on bespoke, beautifully functional kitchens. And we can't wait to pick your brain about kitchens, kitchen trends. I know Liz has many questions because she's working on her own kitchen project. So welcome to the show.
Cindy Cantley
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Caroline
Okay, you were telling us before we started recording about how you got into kitchen design and how you and your husband started your company many years ago. And it's a great story. So I was hoping you could retell it for our listeners because it was, it's funny. Such a unique one.
Cindy Cantley
It is funny. Well, and I got into kitchen design because I majored in interior design. And, and that was so long ago that no one really mentioned you don't make enough money to live with a degree in design. And so I worked for a really good designer in Birmingham and which I was lucky. And I worked at Benetton. Y' all probably don't know Benetton.
Liz
Oh yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Nights and weekends. And so I started doing kitchens because you literally got paid more. And met my husband along the way. He was actually my manager at a place where I worked and we dated for several years, got married. They asked us if we would do a decorator show house and we said yes because we were just young and dumb and had nothing to lose. Although he did not build cabinets, but he, he, he's very MacGyverish and built the cabinets in his parents basement and we did the show house and it was lovely. And one of the people that came through the house was Frank Stitt, a very well known chef in Birmingham. And we did his kitchen. It was besides the show house. It was the first kitchen we did and it ended up on the COVID of Bon Appetit magazine. And that was kind of how it started. We were very fortunate. It was just great timing and we were very lucky and we worked real hard. But it was a nice break.
Taryn
How serendipitous.
Cindy Cantley
I know.
Taryn
In every way. And to have your second job on a cover of a magazine.
Cindy Cantley
I know. Because we've only been on maybe two or three covers ever. So it was. But it was a fluke we were liking.
Taryn
Yeah.
Caroline
And Frankston is, you know, of all of the people in Birmingham, to be your sort of spokesperson or showcase your work, he's the one. Because, you know, James Beard Award winner and yeah, amazing kitchen was.
Cindy Cantley
Is quite the accomplishment.
Caroline
So you've definitely seen a lot in terms of kitchen trends and the arc of sort of how kitchens have evolved and from like a high level. How would you say things have changed since you started the company? Like, are there. Are there overarching things that, you know, have evolved over time?
Cindy Cantley
I think that it had nowhere to go but up from when I started doing kitchens. You know, there were, there were a lot of guys, there were cabinet salesmen back then and I was one of the very few people with a degree in design that was doing kitchens in Birmingham at the time. And. And so I think that helped also my career. Unfortunately, pickle cabinets had just kind of been invented or become popular and there was nothing better to a 20 something year old girl than a pink kitchen. And I kind of feel bad for all those that I did over the years for people. And then I remember even Corian came out with pink countertop, pink Corian countertops. And I just feel so bad that I did that to so many people, but I thought it was just the cutest thing ever.
Caroline
I'm sure they loved it, though.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, they did. And it was, you know, it was the first kind of thing past brown cabinets. Just that ugly bad brown oak cabinet that people did. Very country looking, in my opinion. So it was very exciting that we had pickle cabinets which did not age well. You know, they kind of yellowed over time and.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
So from there, you know, at some point we figured out you could paint cabinets. I'm not sure why we weren't doing that before. Well, many a hundred years ago they did. And then it seemed to kind of go away and then it came back. And then I guess we discovered marble underground at some point. So I don't know where that had been during the laminate Corian. And then it kind of skipped to Grant. Oh, yeah. And tile. Tile with the big, fat grout lines. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I did do a few of those, too. I'm sure they probably were pink. And so then we started doing marble, and so. And I kind of made my living for probably 25 years doing some shade of white kitchen with white marble. And I still think it's one of the most timeless classics looks you can get. I do get very excited when people want to do color, though.
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean. Cause even just, you know, there's definitely been sort of the. The white. White kitchen, farmhouse sinks, and so many things that I think. Well.
Liz
And I mean, are there. Have you seen an arc of different kitchen designs? Because, like, I think in the 90s, like, everything, everyone wanted a Tuscan kitchen and, you know, and then, you know, in the 80s, everything was, like, really tight and modern and, you know. Yeah. So I guess kind of what we're. What we're kind of together. Asking is like, is there. Is there an arc or a trend or how long do those things last?
Cindy Cantley
I had worked, before I got married, I'd worked for an architect in Birmingham, which is located where Chef Von Fawn is now.
Caroline
How funny.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, a very, very good architect back in the day. And we sell smallbone cabinets, which was a lovely English line of cabinets. So again, for Birmingham, that was rather cutting edge. They were terribly expensive. I mean, I think an average kitchen then was probably around 100,000 for the cabinets. And this was in the.
Caroline
Wow.
Cindy Cantley
You know, early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. And so I fell in love with that English style. And so when we started our business, we didn't mean to start, but we did. That's what we did. We did that English inset cabinet, and nobody else was doing that. And I think people loved that, and they couldn't get it anywhere else. And that also helped us in our career, and I think people came to us for that look. So we. I don't think over the years, we did as many trends as other people did, because that's still basically what we do.
Liz
Yeah. Which is absolutely timeless.
Cindy Cantley
It really is. We have things in our portfolio that are 30 years old that still looks so pretty.
Caroline
Yeah.
Liz
Do those. Do those trend type of things just make you cringe a little bit?
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. I just think it's such an expensive room that it's. Keep it classic. You know, if you love purple, paint the walls purple or, you know, the ceiling or wallpaper or fabric or, you know, but. But don't do that. I mean, no one's doing their cabinets purple, but, you know, keep the cabinets and the backsplash and the countertops more classic so that you don't get tired of it and it doesn't date itself.
Caroline
Yeah, well, it would seem like, you know, things in the kitchen, in kitchen trends have just gotten very hyperfunctional, which is a good thing. But just there's so, you know, many options and in terms of different types of, you know, cabinet accoutrements and, you know, so much. So what are. What are sort of some things that, you know, are highlights for you as far as, you know, how. How kitchens have become more functional and, like, how they've become better, I guess, kitchen design in general.
Cindy Cantley
Gosh. Why I know all the answers to kitchen things.
Taryn
Well, I want to break it down by kind of like, I want to talk cabinetry first, then I want to talk countertops, then I want to talk appliances. Like, I want to break it down by, like, little bites, you know, of like what makes the kitchen. So I like this. You said that you've designed kitchens that you that have stood the test of time.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Taryn
What do you think it is about that original company you worked for, the English company Smallbone?
Cindy Cantley
Small Bones.
Taryn
Small bones. What was the details that really stood the test of time that you can look at that work now and even say, that's beautiful. In the cabinetry, it has not changed at all.
Cindy Cantley
It's just a simple inset, flush drawer door cabinet. We only had ever probably six different door styles.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And people were fine with that. You know, I mean, you go to like, even like inexpensive places and they tout that they have 400 door styles, you know?
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
No woman needs to pick from 400 door styles. It's like picking a white paint.
Caroline
So like a shaker, you know, it
Cindy Cantley
kind of is just that. That basic English inset with. With different types of bead. Always a bead around it. You could have a bead around the center panel or not have a bead where it's more shaker. But we just keep it. We've always kept it very simple, and I think that's what. It just doesn't change. It doesn't take. It looks like a piece of like an antique piece.
Taryn
But being in set is what is important versus the door on top. Yeah. Okay.
Caroline
Yeah.
Liz
Has the width of. Because now I'm. I'm looking at doors and I'm having these 400 options and it's. It is over. Overwhelming.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Liz
Has the width of the I. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
What Are what.
Liz
Wait, what are the components of a door?
Cindy Cantley
Like rails and styles. But ours, we always made ours an inch and a half.
Liz
An inch and a half.
Cindy Cantley
The face frame, and then you have the bead, and then you have the door.
Caroline
Yeah.
Liz
Okay. Great. Okay. No, this is. This is all really important because those type of ratios are so.
Cindy Cantley
Because it can look chunky or it can, you know, if you get it too thin, it looks cheap or.
Liz
Right. Or you get it too fat and it's too, too heavy.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Caroline
Well, do you ever change the. The. The rail. What did you call it? The rail.
Cindy Cantley
The rail.
Caroline
The rail part, depending on how deep the drawer is. Like, if the drawer is real narrow, would the proportion change? Or, like, shallow, you know? No. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Okay. No, it's inch and a half. Inch and a half. Inch and a half between each thing.
Caroline
And then what about. What about, like, the toe kick? Because I have orange, so. But. But you're a normal toe kick instead of. Well, because when I think of English cabinetry, I think of either no toe kick or like a decorative sort of foot.
Cindy Cantley
I try to keep things simple.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And make it easy for clients. Appliances have a four inch toe kick. So if you want it all to line up at the bottom, which are the crazy things that I notice.
Taryn
Yeah. It's a great one, though.
Cindy Cantley
You know, we have people all the time, like, well, I'm tall. I want my cabinets taller. We make them tall as you want them. We can't stretch appliances, and we can only raise those little legs up so far to keep that line straight at the bottom.
Caroline
Okay. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And toe kicks are there for a reason in a kitchen, because you. Otherwise you kick it. And if the cabinets are painted, that's not going to wear well over time.
Caroline
Okay.
Taryn
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Well, I mean, bookcases and things will run pretty furniture mold around it and as you should. Or even like, maybe a powder room. But that toe kick. Notice next time you cook, I mean, your feet literally go into the toe
Caroline
kick, you know, but that is a true. I mean, I feel like that is something you're seeing more on Pinterest, so.
Cindy Cantley
And we have people ask for that, and I usually point out why it's there. If they want it, we'll do anything. But it's my job to tell them there's a reason that toe kick is there.
Liz
Right.
Cindy Cantley
And it lines up with the American appliances and.
Taryn
Brilliant.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
See, that's a great reason. All right, what's up?
Caroline
Got your. Your cabinet.
Taryn
We're still in cabinetry.
Liz
How.
Taryn
I have noticed. I Feel like there's a trend towards the drawer versus doors.
Cindy Cantley
Yes, definitely. Which I agree with.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
Okay. And why is that?
Cindy Cantley
It's just easier to get to everything. Don't you hate. I mean, for so long, people had nothing but doors. I mean, so many kitchens I go in, they'll have, like, besides the drawers, right at the top, they might have one stack. And so you. Your pots and pans are down there, and if there's not a roll out in there, you're having to move the things in the front to get to the back, and you just don't use them. You just leave them. It's just you use the same four pots all the time. So drawers just make it easier. It's convenient. It brings everything out to you.
Caroline
And should I expect to pay more for a drawer versus a door?
Cindy Cantley
Yes. More labor, more wood.
Caroline
So what would be like, is it gonna be twice the cost? Not twice that. Twice.
Cindy Cantley
So depends on the cabinet and the cabinet company. I mean, it's. For us, it wouldn't have been, you know, everything was wood and dovetailed. And so it's just more labor.
Caroline
But, you know, but it's not significantly more. It would be more okay.
Taryn
No, it does fun. I mean, I put them in my kitchen, and I will say where my pots and pans are. It is true. Like, they're stacked in there perfectly. And then I go home to my mom's kitchen, and I literally am like, I can't even see what's in here. And then you pull something out, and everything falls forward, and you are. You're like, ragey.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
After you get used to the. I think just the functionality, you are like, oh, the drawers just. Just function so well.
Cindy Cantley
And again, I don't know why it took them. Took us that long to figure that out, you know?
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And roll outs are nice. Drawers are better, in my opinion, because of rollout. You have to open the doors. You have to open them all the way back, or it'll scrape against them.
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
Cindy Cantley
But you can stack more in a rollout than a drawer. So it's nice to have those, you know, one or two somewhere.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Because I did. When we did our last kitchen, like, 20 something years ago, I did all drawers. Only cabinet I had was the sink base. And I realized that, you know, like, the tall thing of, like, Crisco or whatever, you know, the oil wouldn't fit in a drawer, and I literally kept it under my sink. It was the only thing that I couldn't get to fit. But it was like, but, you know, you learn that.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And it's. So I always do one cabinet somewhere with roll outs for the stock pot or the, you know, just.
Liz
You have a few power things.
Caroline
Yeah. Okay.
Taryn
That's a good one.
Liz
That is a good one. Okay. Corners like.
Caroline
Oh, like the corner. Yeah, yeah. How do you treat a corner?
Cindy Cantley
I mean, they. We always use just the same thing, and it was called a corner swing out, where it's. It's not a lazy Susan. It just goes one direction and comes out to you. When people would look at it before the countertops go on, they realize that they're wasting about this much in the back because the swing out can't go all the way to the back. But it does make it more convenient, and it brings it to you. I mean, I think that's the best option you can do. Or just kill the corner, you know, don't have access to it at all.
Caroline
Kill it.
Cindy Cantley
Okay. And most people don't want to do that.
Caroline
No.
Liz
Because that's. That still just feels like valuable space that you could have something.
Cindy Cantley
I think those swing outs are the best. Yeah.
Liz
So swing outs versus lazy Susan. I. My. My hands immediately go in as soon as I think of a lazy Susan. Just because of the ones that we had in our house that we. From our 70s kitchen. Oh, no.
Taryn
The finger.
Liz
No, but as. But as kids, we would. We would get that thing going.
Caroline
Oh.
Liz
And we would spin it really fast.
Cindy Cantley
Was it the kind of. The door attached to it so the whole thing would. Yeah.
Liz
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And those never hold up. Well, they never hang. Right.
Taryn
Wait, the door was attached to it? Yeah. So now, like.
Liz
So it was, like, Pac man shaped. If you were looking at it overhead and you. You had to spin it to.
Taryn
Oh, I do know which one you're talking about. I know what you're talking about.
Caroline
Yeah. Instead of pulling the door open, you
Taryn
literally just push the door. Yes, yes, yes.
Liz
Right. Yeah. So, yeah. If you have kids, don't get that one.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. Yeah.
Caroline
Okay. There's so many, like, inserts, and, you know, now there's like, the spice drawer, and there's the. The skinny pull out next to the oven where you put your bottles. And what are some of. What. Okay. If someone was like, I can do a couple. I can't afford to do all of them. What are the ones that you think are the best bang for your buck?
Cindy Cantley
I only recommend a few, actually. Spice drawer, I think is the greatest.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
I mean, I have it, and I'm so not that fabulous, organized person, but I have them in alphabetical order and you know exactly where everything is. You know, when you don't have something. We do. We typically do two cutlery drawers. One for your cooking utensils next to the range and then one for your everyday silver. And obviously pull out trash. Usually a double trash.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Tray dividers are nice.
Caroline
Tray dividers. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
I think that's it.
Caroline
Those are. That's it.
Cindy Cantley
That's it.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
I mean they make a great pop up thing for a mixer. I've never seen one that works. I mean they won't lock. Both sides won't lock. And then your, you know, nice kitchenaids teetering around. And E. Yeah. And I don't know why I don't love those pull outs for the oils and vinegars. I just think it's awkward to get to. It's low. I'd rather have that. A wall cabinet or.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Or do a pretty tray next to your range and put them on that. Okay. Get a great ballard tray.
Taryn
Oh, that's.
Cindy Cantley
I know.
Taryn
We do have those.
Cindy Cantley
I know. And that's pretty. I mean it is. And olive oil bottles are pretty.
Caroline
Yeah.
Taryn
I was going to ask about the. How do you do your sheet pans and like your cutting boards in the trader botters. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And two of those are nice. I think people always think, you know, when those first started they were like these cabinets this big. They wouldn't hold anything. I mean it was like a 9 or 12 inch cabinet. And if you do have double ovens, like a cooktop and double ovens, the perfect place is above there because it's high but you can reach the bottom and get them out. And then I think it's nice to have one for cutting boards. We use a lot of cutting boards.
Caroline
Yeah.
Taryn
I have one of those and I really. Mine's a full door though, that pulls out and it.
Cindy Cantley
Oh, you get them from the top
Taryn
and you get them from the top and you pull them out. And so all of our sheet pans and our cutting boards are all there, but it's the width of like a regular door. And that one is really nice. Just because it's right there. I can reach it. I can access it.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. Because that's another jumbly mess too. If they're not organized.
Taryn
Well.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
And if you stack them high or.
Caroline
Well, I guess so yours is a pullout drawer and. But you also.
Cindy Cantley
We do that too.
Caroline
Okay. Or there's like above appliance around because
Cindy Cantley
those tall deep cabinets, you lose things in them. So you might. If you have that put them up there. We've also done drawers for like cake pans and things because those don't stack well, you know, they fall over.
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
So you can do a little bit deeper than normal drawer and those fit down in it and that's nice.
Caroline
Oh, that's okay. I like that. You did the spice rack, the trash cutlery and the utensils. And wait, there was one more.
Cindy Cantley
Tray dividers.
Caroline
Yeah, the tray dividers. I feel like that's a good just bas. Because you can really go crazy.
Cindy Cantley
I think that's what. Yeah.
Taryn
We talked about the trends that are out there are wild for the things that pull out and different things. You see. And you're like.
Caroline
And like the hole in the cutting board over the trash can and the, you know.
Liz
Well, and the double drawers. So like you open up one drawer and then there's like a special holder for the paper towel and then.
Taryn
Oh, yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And I do like the built in paper towels if the sink's on the island because I hate for the paper towels to sit on the island.
Liz
Yeah.
Caroline
Yeah.
Taryn
Oh, that's a good.
Cindy Cantley
Against the wall.
Taryn
I hadn't thought about that.
Liz
Yeah, I like. I like that.
Cindy Cantley
But it's a little awkward. It doesn't work perfectly though, in the. In the drawer. But we do them where behind it. You put either two or three more rolls of paper towels in the rest of the drawer. So okay.
Caroline
Yes. Does it. Does it make it to where you only can buy a certain number of paper towels? Like now paper towels, you know, every brand. It's like we do the triple. The triple roll with the double platform.
Cindy Cantley
And we just had a client not long ago. It's weird. It's the first time it had ever happened. He was like, my paper towels won't fit in here. I'm like, you have to get a smaller roll. This is what we use. I'm like, well, not anymore. You have to get a smaller roll. Or we can take that out. You can put them on your island, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz
No going. No going to.
Caroline
What's funny how you just. You don't. Can't get the rolls until you get it. And you're like, oh, I just got 36 rolls of paper towels from Costco. They're not going to fit in my brand new paper towel doodad. Yeah.
Liz
Oh, yeah. That you're. That would drive me crazy.
Taryn
Okay. This is very specific to kind of what you just said, but I'm. Now I'm wondering if your sink has to be in your kitchen. Island and. Or you've decided that. What are the differences sort of. That you make.
Caroline
How would you treat.
Taryn
Because you also have the button for your sink. The disposal. Disposal. But like I know that's there. And then you have to have the vent range. All things like that or. No, that's an oven.
Caroline
That's the oven in the island.
Taryn
If you have to do. Yes, if you have to do your stovetop and. Or your sink in your kitchen island. How does it vary? There we go.
Caroline
I don't think.
Cindy Cantley
I mean, it's just a preference thing. I mean, if I can do a kitchen with nothing on the island, that's the goal. Because I think it's such a great workspace. Yeah. No sink, no cooktop, no blinds.
Taryn
Power.
Liz
Power in the kitchen island.
Cindy Cantley
Oh, yeah.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
You know, they're changing the codes in Birmingham to where we can't have them on ends anymore. Have they done that here yet? You can only have the pop ups now, which you know are going to break, but maybe not. That was negative.
Caroline
Why can't you?
Cindy Cantley
Because they've decided after all these years that if you have for example, your fry daddy up there and a child runs by and loops the cord and pulls it off. Oh, oh. Which could happen.
Caroline
I mean, sure, but.
Taryn
Yeah, but your kid could also go by your hot boiling water on the edge. I mean, okay, it's a cord thing.
Cindy Cantley
It's a cord thing.
Taryn
So you gotta have a cordless fry daddy.
Caroline
So you would prefer to have the sink on the exterior instead of in the center in the island.
Cindy Cantley
I just think islands are great for prep, for serving, for homework, for hanging out. And if you don't have to have appliances there. Yeah, it's fine. Now if someone likes their sink there or we have people that like their cooktop there cause they want to talk to people then. Then I think that's great.
Caroline
Well, that's what I was going to ask. Because I do. It does seem as though.
Cindy Cantley
I don't.
Caroline
I hate to say trend, but maybe the ideal for some people would be to have the sink in the island so that they could then look out into the rest of the room.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
And so I think many people would be thinking, oh, I thought that that was like what I should be doing. So I just was curious what your reasoning was.
Cindy Cantley
There is no right or wrong. Yeah, there's not. And I think some of it may be. I mean, if you have young kids, I mean, you might want that so that you can keep it on them while you're prepping and washing and Cleaning up. But then a lot of people are like, well, I can't imagine not looking out the window when I make my sink. So, yeah, every kitchen I do is different, and. And I'm. I've done this forever, and I'm good at what I do, but it. In the end, it's their kitchen.
Caroline
Right.
Cindy Cantley
And if they want their sink on the island and it's fine.
Caroline
Yeah, well, but it's just nice to consider, like, what are the. The pros and cons?
Cindy Cantley
There's no right or wrong. There is no right or wrong. I probably should not have said it that way, but to me, a perfect kitchen workspace is. Is nothing on an island.
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taryn
And you're. I think you are.
Caroline
You have years of experience.
Taryn
You're allowed to have your own personal opinion. Because I think a lot of people do have a strong opinion on kitchen because of the way they know they function. Or, like, I am that person who is like, if I don't have a window over my sink, like, exactly, like, Right. So I phobia. Yeah.
Caroline
But also, I mean, you only know what you've had, and so if you haven't had it in the sink and you think, oh, that's what I need, or I'm sorry. Yeah, you haven't had the sink in the island, and you think that's what, you know, everyone is doing, therefore, I need to do. Yeah. You might do it without really realizing what the.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
You know, the pros and cons are, I guess, is what I.
Taryn
100%. I think that's why that conversation's good, because it could. She could have said, I love it, and here's why. So, like, I think having that, you know, big piece of stone usually, too, is so. It's so beautiful. Yeah.
Caroline
Okay. You were also talking about the. The step stools and all the other. Let's talk about some other, like, weird
Taryn
one nuance I've seen.
Caroline
Cabinet.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
Do a lot of people do, like, the dog bowl pull out?
Caroline
Yes, we do.
Cindy Cantley
But, you know, you have to talk about how the dog eats because you don't want it pulled out all the time.
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Because a lot of times we'll do them on the end of an island and people would probably fall over it or if the dog grazes, you know, but if you feed the dog and they only have one dog, then it's great. And the dog eats when you feed him. But if it needs to stay rolled out all day long and typically the water's next to it. Um, yeah, all the time. It just depends on, you know, if they can go in a laundry room. I think that's great. Um, yeah, I like them.
Caroline
I, I, I think it's, I've seen some people do the, it's like an inset. Oh, yeah. Cubby.
Taryn
Where it doesn't allow.
Cindy Cantley
With a faucet.
Caroline
With a faucet, yeah.
Cindy Cantley
It's just money.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, We've done it and they're cool. And we always zoom in when we photograph it and.
Caroline
Yeah. Well, would you do the cubby instead of a pull out? That seems like a maybe.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. And you're going to have scraps of marble left over. I mean, if nothing else, your sink cut out would fit in there because you want it to be able to clean. You wouldn't want that to be wood.
Liz
Right, Right.
Taryn
Okay. Yeah, I'll drool.
Caroline
Keep going. Dog. Dog bowls.
Taryn
I was going to say, have you seen any cool ones? Because my other one was step stool, like where it like pulls out and it's like a ladder.
Liz
I keep seeing that one.
Taryn
Is that. Yeah.
Liz
Have you seen this?
Cindy Cantley
I have.
Caroline
So specific.
Cindy Cantley
And I've seen them like that fit down in the toe kick, but it only comes up about a foot. And I feel like women. If we need a ladder in there, you need them.
Taryn
Oh, I need to get to that tall upper. Yeah.
Liz
Right.
Cindy Cantley
I'd rather do a tall cabinet with a huge tray divider in it and slide a step stool in there where, where you have it and it has a handle on it and you can
Taryn
you pull out yours? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense though.
Caroline
Well, you think about, it's just the age where your kids need a step stool. I mean, I suppose it is like, what, seven or eight years, but you're hopefully designing your kitchen for more like 20, you know, 25, you know, so
Liz
I don't think, I don't think the kids need the step stools for nearly as long as we think that they do when they're little.
Caroline
Well, I will say I agree. I think Karen talked me into getting the touch faucet, which I like for that reason because it's easier for my kids to reach the faucet than the handle.
Cindy Cantley
Right.
Caroline
So they, it's totally makes sense for many reasons. Some people hate it, though.
Cindy Cantley
So as long as it works, it's great.
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, I like it, but what about, what about.
Liz
I've seen hidden drawers in the toe kick.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. Right.
Liz
Is that helpful or is that just something that's going to get stuck and I'm never going to get it open.
Caroline
I don't.
Cindy Cantley
We, I mean, over the years we've had people ask us to do that. It's very small, literally. It's probably not more than, you know, where they want to hide things in there. And I'm like, I'm not sure what they're hiding or I don't know. Yeah, okay. Money, drugs, enough silver for me.
Taryn
If you don't know, you don't need to ask or what is it?
Liz
I know. I'm so not that way. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
I know. I mean it'd be great for.
Taryn
No, it's a great question.
Cindy Cantley
You know, things like that. But it's almost, it's just almost not even deep enough for even that.
Taryn
Because you're adding, you're adding a very shallow drawer.
Cindy Cantley
No one's going to pay. Putting your jewelry in there. You're never going to wear the jewelry
Liz
because if it's a 4 inch toe kick and then you need clearance for the actual functionality of it, you've got yourself down to three inches. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Okay.
Caroline
What about like plates and glassware in the drawer versus the cabinet?
Cindy Cantley
We've gotten to where we do so, you know, we do less wall cabinets now. So they have to go somewhere. So I think it works. I mean it's. I don't have a problem with that. I try to do. I love dish cabinets, you know, where you have floor to ceiling and you can swing that open and you can read. Women can reach so much more of that than a, you know, typically a wall cabinet, you can reach the first two shelves and that's it. So if you have tall cabinets, it looks nice and it holds everything and
Caroline
you can see like a solid cabinet top to bottom.
Cindy Cantley
And if. Yeah, and not necessarily 24 deep. If you do it 24 deep, then you've, then you've got to buy rollouts for all the way up and that gets pricey. And so if you can do it, I mean wild cabinet's 12 deep. So I would, you know, 15 or 18.
Liz
Okay.
Caroline
Yeah, that makes sense.
Cindy Cantley
And that way
Caroline
basically one plate deep.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
You know, without. Yeah. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
You don't lose anything in there. You can see it, get it. And your whole set of china is right there, right? Yeah, that's part.
Liz
So what do you think about, about the absence of wall cabinets?
Cindy Cantley
I kind of like it. I, I think it just cleans it up and it's not so cookie cutter buildery looking where they're just lined around the room. But I mean it is a kitchen and it has, you have to, you have to be able to get those tall cabinets somewhere.
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
You know, I love, like, the little back kitchens that are so popular now.
Caroline
Like a scullery. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
But most. You know, mainly what we do is remodeling because it's older. Birmingham's an older city. It's like here. And we don't have big kitchens and people are accustomed to that and they. They want so much out of their kitchen. And I do occasionally have to remind them that I'm not a magician. You know, unless we're knocking the back wall of the house out, it is what it is, but we can always make it better.
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah.
Liz
Okay. What about coffee and appliance cabinets and those kind of. I feel like those have become really special.
Cindy Cantley
I kind of love those because it gets all that stuff off the counter and then. And you have doors, pocket doors or folding doors, and you can close it and you don't see it and so
Caroline
is that a wall cabinet? Is that like a.
Liz
There are so many different mechanisms. There's like the hydraulic kind of, like, lift where a door just kind of comes up.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Liz
There's. Yeah. The pocket doors or just swing open doors. Am I missing anything? Like.
Cindy Cantley
And move bifold.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
It just depends on how wide it is, how many appliances you want in there and.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Which type of.
Liz
Which type of doors do you like the best?
Cindy Cantley
I mean, the. The most practical would be just swing open and use it and then close them.
Liz
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Pocket doors are a little finicky. You have to be careful with them. You know, if something's going to break in your kitchen, it's probably going to be a pocket door at some point.
Taryn
I got a pocket door. I feel that. I feel. It just feels like. It's like if it's going broke, it's
Cindy Cantley
going to be this. Because, I mean, like, really, you have to be careful.
Taryn
It's a huge mechanism.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
It's terribly expensive hardware. It's hard to repair.
Taryn
See, things I didn't know do. And. And I shut it. I do shut. When I'm done with coffee. Like, it's not every day. Yeah. Mine's not a beautiful. It's. Mine's just not beautiful. Mine's my toaster and my.
Cindy Cantley
Unless you're doing a photo shoot, it's not going to be, you know. And what you see published is. It's styled for that, right?
Liz
Yes.
Taryn
It's like all matching mugs and a perfect little. No, mine is my coffees shoved in there. All my. Oh, my. Like, sentimental mugs that I'm like Oh, I can't get rid of this. But it doesn't match, you know, like
Cindy Cantley
what your kids make.
Taryn
Yes, exactly. Those are shoved in there. And so I don't want people to see it. So anyway, that's why I went pocket doors. I could have probably come. I probably could have just done doors.
Cindy Cantley
Well, they, they're in the way though, because it's usually a pretty big cabinet. So that's. It kind of depends on where it is in your kitchen.
Taryn
That's true. It is nice because I do push it back and if like people are in town, then it, it is like I just leave it open so everyone can get their coffee.
Cindy Cantley
It's fun to do it. We've even done it where there's doors behind the doors, you know, where we'll do the inside and walnut or we'll do the inside and we did one. I think it was a Sherwin Williams color tutti frutti. That was so fun and unexpected when you opened it. Like just hot pink. I mean.
Liz
Oh, I love. So yeah. Fun.
Cindy Cantley
It was fun.
Taryn
Oh, that was fun. Let's do that. A little hidden, like fun gem of color.
Caroline
I love that.
Cindy Cantley
Because people don't expect it and it's just fun. Or you can wallpaper the back or you can. It's just fun to do things like that with cabinets. Talk to us about height.
Caroline
Do you always go to the ceiling? Are there certain ceiling heights? That is too crazy. What, what's kind of your thought process?
Cindy Cantley
I mean, most of the houses we do are nine foot ceilings. And we did go to the ceiling with that 10. You can, you can push it a little bit for that. You can only make doors so tall or you start having problems with them warping because they're just, they're not as thick as interior doors. And with inset cabinets, they, you know, start moving and you. They don't fit flush inside the cabinet anymore. But then, you know, people will build new houses with 11, 12 foot ceilings and it's, it's just money. So you can't reach it. Well, yeah, they want them all. I mean, and people tend to not want, they want them to go all the way up because it's dusty and it's. Yeah, so we'll do them all the way up. You're paying for two cabinets around the entire room. A lot of times we'll add the ladders, the rolling ladders, and it's.
Caroline
It's just a rolling ladder. I don't understand because in my mind I'm like, it looks beautiful, but it's always the way. So you gotta move. So, you know, you already are having to open all the doors to get to whatever you're wanting. But now you gotta remove a ladder and then open the door.
Cindy Cantley
You still need two people because you've got to hand them whatever you're getting out.
Caroline
Yeah, that's right.
Taryn
Yeah.
Caroline
That's the ladder with the.
Cindy Cantley
With the platters and.
Taryn
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can speak from experience, but it looks good. Yeah. My. I've. Mine go 10ft.
Cindy Cantley
Are they 10?
Taryn
So the ones over my fridge, again, like, I can't. I can't. I'm on the ladder with my big platters or whatever. I have to pass them to someone. So she is correct.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
There's no. Otherwise I have to get down my rickety. Yes. Like my little step stool storage.
Cindy Cantley
And you can definitely put the china. Like Christmas china.
Taryn
Oh, yeah. Mine's like, anytime I'm having a party, it's like. It is just. I'm up there for a reason, but it is something to think about.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
You're not putting your day to day
Cindy Cantley
stuff up there right now.
Caroline
Like the ladder. Having to move it all the time. That's like.
Taryn
I do have to move the ladder in and out. I probably use my ladder once a day.
Caroline
But it's not a fixed ladder.
Taryn
Nope. It's a step stool ladder. Front gate ladder.
Cindy Cantley
Right, right, right, right, right.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
It's not a rolling ladder.
Caroline
You pull the ladder out once a
Taryn
day every day for something up there around my house, which is all my ten foot. You know, it's like any cabinetry. If I'm getting games down, watering a plant in the other room on the bookcase. Like, I use my step stool.
Caroline
No, I do too. I mean. But not necessarily my kitchen, though.
Taryn
Yeah. Every. Yeah. Not every day. You're right. You're right.
Caroline
No, I mean, I would think that most of the stuff you're using lately is.
Taryn
Everybody lives. Yeah. No, it's like refilling the spice drawer. If anything's out, the excess is up in a taller cabinet.
Caroline
See?
Taryn
Gotcha.
Cindy Cantley
That's backstock. Backstock. The back stock. Yeah. And they only last for about two years if they're not in your freezer.
Caroline
So the big spices.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
Good to know. Need to go through. Don't come eat at my house.
Cindy Cantley
I gotta look at some dates.
Taryn
No, I'm kidding. There's not that much.
Caroline
Okay. Should we move on to appliances? Are there any.
Taryn
Okay. I want to go to counter.
Caroline
Countertops. Okay. Yes.
Taryn
We didn't talk hardware either.
Caroline
Though. Oh, okay.
Taryn
On the doors. Hold on.
Liz
We didn't. And I. Appliance cabinet. I do want to talk one last cabinet.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, yeah.
Taryn
Sweet. Well, yeah, that will lead us to appliances. Let's do that. That will be a great route.
Liz
Okay, good. Microwaves. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Put em behind the doors in that appliance cabinet on a shelf. Breaks in five years, throw it away and put a new one in. I mean, microwave drawers are. A lot of people haven't loved their microwave drawers. Do y' all have them?
Caroline
No, they. There's something weird to me about putting food down in. I don't. Tried it one time at, like, this rental house, and I was like, oh, God, it's so awkward to, like, place your food down in the drawer, and
Cindy Cantley
then it's awkward to clean when the butter blows up for the drawer.
Caroline
I mean, here's the thing. You want to microwave for speed, and the drawer comes out at like.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. And goes back in the same way.
Liz
You know what I mean?
Caroline
So I'm like, I'm using microwave for speed, but it takes five to ten seconds to open.
Taryn
Well, that's because it can't go at what speed?
Cindy Cantley
Your food just slide up.
Caroline
That's a point. But so if it's about speed, then why. Fair enough, fair enough.
Taryn
No, I see what you're saying. They're microwaving for speed.
Caroline
And I think the one thing I. And okay, y', all. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even own any microwave. But you don't have a microwave. I don't own a microwave. Yes. But the thing that I want a microwave for is a cup of coffee. So something about putting the cup of coffee in a drawer down and like, liquids down in it. I don't know.
Cindy Cantley
I don't like it.
Liz
Okay.
Caroline
I don't want to put a bowl of soup down in a drawer and
Liz
then knocking that off the list. Not getting that.
Cindy Cantley
They're very. They're like $2,000. I mean, a good microwave's two or $300.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
To say we have an old, old microwave behind a cabinet.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taryn
Under it's. Ours is under the kitchen island. Like, it's two doors on the kitchen island. That's other storage.
Cindy Cantley
And we used to always put them in an island where you couldn't see them. I just. I never liked to see them. So I would put them on the back side of the island. We'd just leave an opening with the bead around it. So it's somewhat built in, but not really. And it just Sit. And then we started doing the appliance cabinet. So now it sits on the, like, eye level on up there. The coffee's down below.
Liz
So coffee's down below, microwaves on top,
Cindy Cantley
and then whatever else you need in there, Whatever else you use often. The toaster, KitchenAid, whatever.
Taryn
Fry Daddy.
Cindy Cantley
The Fry Daddy?
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Your bean pot margarita mixer. Yeah.
Taryn
Oh, yeah. Margarita mixer. Gotta keep that up top. Margaritaville.
Caroline
Don't let me talk you out of a microwave drawer if that's what your heart says.
Liz
No, no, no. My heart is not set on a microwave door at all. I. I actually really don't. The microwave. And. And in the first iteration, Drawings. My architect had the. An open cabinet in next to the stove. And I was just like, I don't want to see it. I don't even want to see it. No.
Cindy Cantley
Because that's usually the prettiest part of the kitchen area.
Liz
That's like. Yeah. So. So we're either talking appliance cabinet above the coffee, like you recommended, or we are talking in the pantry.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Liz
And putting it. Putting it in.
Cindy Cantley
And a lot of it just depends on how often you use it. And that's another those questions I have to ask, you know, and most people don't use them. They heat their coffee. Or if the husband's like, well, I use it 10 times a day to eat my coffee. I don't want it in the pantry. And you're like, okay, then we'll. We'll put it here.
Liz
You know, that's pretty much the discussion
Cindy Cantley
we're at right now.
Caroline
Yeah.
Liz
It's like, I don't want the pantry to just smell like popcorn. It's like, well, don't make popcorn.
Cindy Cantley
Well, but I don't know.
Caroline
It's either that or the kitchen's going to smell like popcorn. I mean, popcorn is the smell.
Liz
Popcorn is.
Caroline
If you're making popcorn, popcorn's a delicious smell.
Taryn
We're really going to fight smells. It's. It's the microwave fish.
Cindy Cantley
Unless you like the popcorn.
Taryn
That's true. Burnt popcorn is bad. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.
Liz
Yeah, I think that that's where that. Honestly, burnt popcorn is. Is the. And it is the tipping point on whether or not we keep it in the pantry or not.
Taryn
I love this for you.
Cindy Cantley
Offices have like a no popcorn popping policies. Like the corporate world. Yeah.
Taryn
We had a no fish around here back in the day.
Caroline
Yeah, I. Yeah, I mean, that's one
Taryn
person who microwaves too often. No, I. I called her out.
Cindy Cantley
That's. Yeah, I did.
Taryn
I sent an email to the Whole office.
Cindy Cantley
That's better.
Taryn
Typing.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. Heaven forbid someone's pregnant.
Taryn
Oh my gosh. They would have not been. Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
Okay. So appliances.
Taryn
Oh yeah. What else would the. Well, we've scooted to appliances. So built in appliances. What are your. What with appliances are a. Yes, no, must do.
Cindy Cantley
I think that's a personal preference thing. I mean I don't drink coffee, so I don't push built in coffee makers. We just put one in at our house maybe a month ago. My husband loves it.
Caroline
He was built in coffee maker. Okay. That was like the espresso or the espresso thing that is in the wall.
Cindy Cantley
It does all kind of frost the milk and everything. And this man drank one cup of coffee a day. Keurig. Now he drinks coffee all day long.
Taryn
I would too.
Cindy Cantley
All his fancy coffees and all his different beans he has now it's. Within a month we've created this hilarious monster. But it looks nice and I'm good with it.
Caroline
What about if you are going to do the drawer front appliances? Are there certain ones that you think are no brainers have to do it? Some that you could give or take.
Cindy Cantley
You mean like a warming drawer or.
Caroline
No, like, you know, like the cabinet front fridge.
Cindy Cantley
Oh yeah.
Caroline
A dishwasher.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, yeah. We typically do wood panels on them.
Caroline
On all of them?
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
If they buy the correct appliances.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Yes. You don't want to buy. And unfortunately it's. It's the expensive appliances that build in the nicest. But if you don't do that, it just looks like you've stuck a door on the front of something. It's not, you're not fooling anyone that it's not the refrigerator or even the dishwasher.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
But like the sub zeros, the columns, I mean they vent through the toe kick. Now they don't have the grill at the top at all. And it's. They, they built in beautifully.
Caroline
Okay.
Taryn
Yeah. Because they used to have the grill at the top.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Taryn
So you could always tell you're right.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. And for years we stuck doors on them and thought we were cool. And hiding the refrigerator with the big, you know, three or four foot grill running across the top. And they do still make those. And if people did the stainless and I like that. I mean it's an industrial look and
Taryn
if we do want that look.
Liz
Yeah, right.
Cindy Cantley
It's just different looks.
Caroline
It seems like the dishwasher is very cost effective to do the. The drawer front like.
Cindy Cantley
Or the panel ready, they call it.
Taryn
Panel ready.
Caroline
Yeah. Panel ready. Thank you. I Was like. That's not the right word. Yeah. But in the fridge, it's like a whole. Just certain fridges do it.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
Whereas dishwashers, it's almost more. They're a lot more optimistic.
Liz
Right.
Caroline
In terms of the appliance and it
Cindy Cantley
depends on where it is in the room. If you don't see it, then don't do it. I mean, it's one of those things. And your dishwasher is going to break probably before you redo your kitchen again. You need to find. You got to match the paint. Hopefully the cabinet people are still in business and can make you a new door to put your new dishwasher. Um, so there. There's some pros and cons to it.
Liz
Yeah. It seems like that would be one of the things that your eyes stop seeing if you don't. If you don't do a panel on the front of the dishwasher that you just kind of keep looking past it because you ex. You expect a dishwasher to be there.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, yeah.
Liz
Yes. Yeah. We're looking at the drawer dishwasher because we're just. We're going to be a small two person house in just a couple months.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Liz
And so you know what?
Caroline
I had that in like a apartment that I was in. Had the eight. It's not 18, is it a 20 inch dishwasher? The skinny. There's an 18 or maybe an 18 Bosch. And it was amazing.
Liz
Bottles are great.
Caroline
Like. Anyway, so I kind of liked having the little one because you're cute. You fill it up every single day and you just run it every single day. Right. Whereas if you're two people, it might take you three or four days to fill up a, like a full size dishwasher. Anyway.
Cindy Cantley
I don't know why we can fill ours up and we.
Taryn
It's all that coffee.
Cindy Cantley
It's all that coffee. Now. Wine glasses and coffee mugs.
Taryn
Yeah, wine and coffee.
Caroline
Just keep filling it up.
Liz
Right. I don't know. I'm sure we could, but for the
Caroline
record, I just was like, wow, this is such a small dishwasher, but it's run so well and it fits so much, like, way more than I expected. Anyway.
Taryn
All right, did you have any other dishwasher questions?
Liz
No, I'm gonna cross questions. No, I don't think so.
Taryn
Ranges. Anything. You hate love on ranges.
Cindy Cantley
I love ranges Again, because we do so much remodeling in smaller older homes or smaller kitchens in older homes and they take up less room. Yeah. But a lot of people, you know, every now and then people balk about. I don't want to lean over. So it's. And if they don't, they don't. You know, we'll find somewhere. And it also keeps it very symmetrical. I mean, it just. Things lay out well with. When you don't have a stack of ovens, you know, down.
Caroline
Right. Like the, the hood with the range, like it's.
Taryn
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Liz
That is really nice.
Taryn
How about the option of WI fi turn on for all these appliances?
Cindy Cantley
I don't understand that, but I'm probably too old to ask that question too. I don't know why I don't need to turn my oven on for my car. Has the food been in the oven since I left for work that morning? I don't know.
Caroline
Yeah, I don't get that. Okay.
Taryn
I just wanted to ask what if she was like, no, I know I would only work for people. I think with OCD of like, is it off?
Liz
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much what that's for is to turn it off. You can't turn. For the most part I don't think that you can turn it on remotely because of safety issues.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, for some reason I think you can. But I don't know. I don't. I haven't paid enough attention to that because I'm just like, I don't understand why anyone wants that.
Caroline
I think more too about having a.
Cindy Cantley
But I don't even understand Teslas. Like, my son was driving a Tesla the other day. Like they told him to take it home for the day to see if he liked it. Which I can't believe they do that to a 20 something year old boy. But. And, and it was frightening to me to even be riding in there with him.
Caroline
Uh huh.
Cindy Cantley
And he's just sitting there like this, you know, just, you know, and you're like, this is. I don't know. It just scared me.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
I can't. I barely used cruise control. Like I have to be in complete control when I'm driving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz
No, yeah, I can't do that either. But okay, so turning on the oven remotely, I, I thought that would be a good thing. Like if I was driving home and with my groceries and I was like, the oven. Preheat the oven. Yeah, but no, my, my oven won't do it now.
Caroline
Yeah, there's.
Cindy Cantley
So what if you have a wreck?
Caroline
Oh wait, you have one now. Like you have a. Yeah, I have my.
Liz
I have my oven hooked up to an app.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Okay.
Liz
Yeah. But I, but it won't let me turn it remotely.
Caroline
I mean, it's probably.
Cindy Cantley
I'm sorry. It's totally fine.
Caroline
Which, like, what if someone hacked your. Your oven and then.
Liz
Oh, my goodness.
Taryn
I guess so.
Liz
Oh, my gosh.
Cindy Cantley
And the crazy people.
Caroline
Okay, y', all. We kind of move on. I know.
Liz
Keep going.
Taryn
Countertops.
Cindy Cantley
Oh, no.
Caroline
Sorry.
Liz
Oh, yes.
Taryn
I feel like countertops are, again, personal choice. But what are your favorites and what's just timeless?
Caroline
What?
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Marble.
Caroline
Marble.
Cindy Cantley
Marble.
Caroline
And then certain etch. Certain, like, sealants or something that any secrets to. Or just live and let live and etching, I think.
Cindy Cantley
Live and let live. And, I mean, there's nothing prettier to me than old marble. I mean, you go to Europe, and there's nothing more beautiful than that. I mean, it's hundreds of years old. It's a rock. It's not near as fragile as people think it is. And I have so many people that constantly. Well, my builder said I shouldn't do marble. I'm like, does your builder have marble in this house? You know, I've had marble for almost 30 years in my house, and it ages beautifully, and. And I'm not careful with it. It can chip, and there are a couple of chips. I mean, I have a chip in my bathroom, and I don't know how it got chipped in there. I mean, you understand it getting chipped around your sink or, you know, something, but it. I don't know. It's not like it's a different color underneath. It's real stone. It's.
Caroline
Yeah. Like, who cares?
Cindy Cantley
I know. It tells a story.
Caroline
Yeah.
Taryn
But.
Caroline
But people.
Cindy Cantley
There are people who can't live with that. And if they are, then, you know, I had someone tell me one time that her maid would quit if she got horrible. And I'm like, okay. I mean, how do you even respond to that? It's like, well, let's not do that.
Caroline
Any others that you like? Like, a lot of people love soapstone, which I think is really. Any other things that you feel like.
Cindy Cantley
I think it's very pretty. It's a little bit more maintenance in marble. And one perk of marble now is we're getting into such crazy colors and movement with marbles, which I love. And you don't see it near as much on that. If you have a really white background, like Carrera or something like that, you're going to see a lot more stains and rings on it. Yeah, But I also. We've been in our house, I think, 17 years now, and I have a white Calcutta marble And I'll clean it with Clorox, which makes stone people cringe. But again, it's a rock and it's. It's not. It gets it so white again and.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
What do you have, Darren?
Taryn
I have quartz. I've been happy with it. I mean, in the sense of like, I don't worry about pot. I don't worry about anything. And I think having two boy two boys plus a husband in the house, it's felt. It felt like the right move for us. Especially because I went green cabinets. So I wanted. It was. It was pre crazy or the good stones. Because I feel like I would have definitely gone crazier with the stones.
Cindy Cantley
And now the good stones are crazy expensive.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
I got a price back on a very normal sized kitchen. It was three slabs, so that's not a huge kitchen. And that was their backsplashes too. And it was $90,000. I mean, when they called, when they sent me the price I called, I was like, I can't even tell them this. I mean, countertops should not cost more than cabinets costs.
Taryn
Wow.
Cindy Cantley
So Marvel's gotten congratulations doing your kitchen right now. Because I don't know what's going on with it. We did reselect and it got it down to about 50, which is still. I mean, countertops used to be 10. Well, they used to be 5 and then 10 and then maybe 15 and.
Caroline
Wow. God.
Taryn
Are people doing thousand dollars granite anymore for countertops?
Cindy Cantley
We've never done granite. I don't know why. We literally went from Corian to marble back in the day. I just didn't love it. It was very polka dotted. It was very busy. It was brown.
Caroline
That's all. Fair.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
No, I did it and mine was very black. Like it was pretty solid black.
Cindy Cantley
And there.
Taryn
So it was.
Cindy Cantley
There is some black now that looks a lot like soapstone. That every now and then we'll do that. Just because it's so practical, you cannot hurt it. Soapstones. You have to oil it. You have to. When you oil it, it looks so pretty, but it marks it. Okay, what.
Liz
What is the most economical and beautiful stone asking for a friend?
Cindy Cantley
It depends on where you shop for it here. Yeah, I mean it depends.
Caroline
Like is. Would a. Oh my gosh. What's the marble that's like not. Not Calcutta, but. Oh my God. What's the other one that starts with a C. Carrera. Carrera thing.
Cindy Cantley
That's probably the least expensive. Okay.
Caroline
Like a Carrera marble would be.
Cindy Cantley
It's very gray background which most people want A white background and.
Caroline
Okay. Ah, yeah. So if it goes with your.
Taryn
Do people often start with the countertop? Are they picking the countertop?
Cindy Cantley
I always start with the countertop first because you can get any paint color.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
I think you need to fall in love with the marble and.
Taryn
Yeah, that's a great.
Cindy Cantley
Pick your color from that.
Taryn
What about doing.
Caroline
What about doing the countertop and the island? Separate. Separate stones like some people do.
Liz
Like a color stones.
Caroline
Well, like a dip like a butcher block on the island and a. Or something. Some combination. You know, I feel like people did.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, I mean I think that's fine. And we do the island. A different wood or a different color or it, it just. It depends on what they want. I don't have a strong opinion about it. Only time I do. I love walnut. I think it's such a pretty rich wood and we do natural walnut. You just seal it and so it's just the prettiest color and it's all hand selected so the grains are pretty. But if they have a kitchen table in their kitchen, then I wouldn't do that. Cause you don't want the woods competing and.
Caroline
Yeah, right.
Taryn
I did do that as well. We did the walnut in our back cabinetry and it's really pretty.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, walnut's pretty.
Taryn
I don't know where. I don't know what price point, but yeah, it's pretty.
Liz
I don't either yet. I'm. I'm still in the dream phase.
Caroline
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
So that's good. Yeah, that's good.
Liz
It's all wonderful.
Caroline
Now what about the. So how if you were going to do the backsplash matching your countertop and is that basically doubling the amount of slabs. Slabs you're.
Cindy Cantley
You're getting or it wouldn't double it, but it would. Yeah.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And sometimes we don't. You know, if people and everyone's on a budget. I don't care what price house you're working in. There's always a budget. It. A lot of times you just have some left. So you might as well use it or use it somewhere or you know, if you have a kids bath. Because you're either gonna. You're buying the slabs, they're either gonna put it in your basement for you or they're gonna take it back to their shop and they'll eventually sell it to someone who's doing a vanity or something. You know, it's. So if you, if you wanna put it just behind the range, if you have that much left over but your budget won't allow you to buy the rest of the room, then put it there, and then do tile everywhere else. It's fun to mix it. It's a little more interesting.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
It's a good reminder, too, of, like,
Cindy Cantley
what to do with the extra. I know.
Liz
Use it.
Taryn
And is that a trend right now, too? Is just running the cabinet.
Cindy Cantley
It has been for probably about 10 years. We're just starting to do tile again, actually.
Taryn
Okay.
Caroline
I love the marble on the back. I think, like, sometimes when you're. When things splatter on the. The backsplash. To me, it seems easier to clean a solid piece of stone versus having those little grooves from the grout you. But I suppose it's not like. Yeah, crazy. But it just seems like.
Cindy Cantley
Well, it's always that. You know, we always. When we're laying out the slabs for the kitchen, we always do the prettiest piece behind the range and then the second prettiest on the island, and then you just fill in from there.
Caroline
Yeah.
Taryn
Because one's horizontal and one's vertical.
Caroline
So do your ver.
Taryn
Okay.
Caroline
Yeah, that makes sense.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. And in a perfect world, it. The veins match going up. You may have to buy another slab to do it that way. And that's something else kind of crazy, too, and that people don't realize that, you know, one person may say, you need two slabs, and their price is $10,000 less because they're piecing it all together. And when you. And when you get it in there, your veins go into different directions. And people. Clients don't know that, so.
Caroline
Okay.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
So many good things questions that I
Caroline
even came in with.
Cindy Cantley
Sorry.
Taryn
I know we're running out of time, but what about flooring? Like, what are people putting in there? Are they running the hardwoods or.
Cindy Cantley
Usually hardwood. What we do is just usually hard. Yeah.
Taryn
Okay. Because growing up, I feel like it was always. The kitchen was always tiled.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Liz
Tile or laminate tile or.
Taryn
Yeah, yeah. It was always. It was a separate flooring in the kitchen.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
It was like.
Cindy Cantley
And really old houses had pine floors because it was cheaper, which. It's that opposite now. Pine costs more than oak now, so. Yeah. I mean, even if it's old house and you start pulling it up and there's pine down there that hasn't been damaged over the years, and use it.
Taryn
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And I love painted floors. I think that's fine. It's not strangely durable, but it looks great.
Caroline
And I love wood floors in a kitchen.
Cindy Cantley
I mean, it's easier to stand on. It's more forgiving if you Drop something there.
Caroline
And there are already so many, like, hard surfaces in the kitchen with your. All of your stone and your appliances and stuff, that it's kind of nice to have that more. That warmth.
Cindy Cantley
Yes, yes. Yeah.
Taryn
Yeah.
Caroline
Okay, what's next on your list, Aaron?
Taryn
We did. I mean, we hit a lot. Oh, hardware. What is trending in hardware is it pulls knobs. What are. Or is there no trend?
Caroline
It's just you do a combination, like.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, I always do a combination.
Caroline
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And I love back plates. And I love. You know, we do truly pretend like we're still living in the south of France. And do the little fake keys and do the tassel on it.
Caroline
Where would you put the fake key? Like, is that on, like, the china cabinet or.
Cindy Cantley
Okay.
Taryn
Okay. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Somewhere. It's not everywhere.
Caroline
You took the drawer.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
Yeah.
Liz
Oh, that's sweet.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
So if you're laying out your hardware on your. In your kitchen and you're deciding between poles and knobs, where would you put what? Like, are there certain applications that make more sense?
Cindy Cantley
Well, and I think. And. And there is no rhyme or reason to what I do, but for some reason, on the top drawers, I always do knobs. And then the two drawers below, I'll do a pull.
Caroline
Oh, I love that. Okay.
Liz
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And we use those Bouvet pulls forever, those drop pulls. And it was so funny. It kind of looked like smiley faces for some reason.
Caroline
Like a.
Cindy Cantley
Not intended.
Caroline
Like a bend pull kind of.
Cindy Cantley
No, but I do like Ben pulls, too.
Taryn
Someone with two plates and a swing.
Caroline
Oh, yes, yes, yes. With that sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taryn
Okay. With the sound.
Caroline
I hate that sound. I don't know why. There's just something about it. I can just, like, hear it now.
Taryn
What about when the drawers are really wide and people do two knobs?
Caroline
You know what?
Liz
Because I know exactly the sound you're talking about. Sorry. Insert sound effect here.
Caroline
Yes. No, you're totally fine.
Taryn
You know, you're totally. I hear the sound in my head. You're right.
Caroline
Imagine how. Okay. Do you. You know that sound of the cabinet doors shutting and, like, think about all the sounds in the kitchen? I just. The idea of adding a knob with a sound makes me crazy.
Taryn
Oh. Slow, close hinges. Speaking of.
Cindy Cantley
Right. Yes.
Taryn
That should be a must as well.
Cindy Cantley
Yes, yes.
Taryn
As Caroline just said, that especially with
Cindy Cantley
inset cabinets, because they closed themselves right where before you had to go back and push them one more time.
Caroline
Yeah, Sorry.
Cindy Cantley
But I think. I think I kind of have fun with hardware. I mean, I think it's. I mean, it's that. Yeah. I hate to say it, but the jewelry of the kitchen. But it kind of is. And you can spend whatever you want on it.
Taryn
Yeah, but that is a wild price range.
Cindy Cantley
It is a wide range.
Taryn
Right. Like you. You can get real up there.
Liz
Right?
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. It's not unusual for appliance pools to be. Not even anything real special. They're three to six hundred dollars a pool.
Liz
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
So it's.
Liz
Wow.
Taryn
So then if you do them on your set from experience. I wanted it on the dishwasher as well. And then I was like, but then I gotta buy a third one.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Taryn
Oh, gosh.
Cindy Cantley
You gotta buy the wood panel from the cabinet people and then the pool. I mean, it easily adds a thousand dollars, probably 2000 almost to the dishwasher.
Taryn
I think I do like a lot, though, hardware wise, is when they change wherever the trash can is, knowing that that is a. Yeah, yeah. I like that hardware being different because I visually need that cue. It's the ones who really want it hidden where you are like, hey, so which one's your.
Cindy Cantley
Where's your.
Caroline
Like, I gotta open every.
Liz
Right.
Taryn
Yeah. Like, I don't want to open all yours. To find out where the trash can is.
Cindy Cantley
Which should be next to the sink.
Taryn
Okay.
Cindy Cantley
And usually have a pull on it. Not an odd. Cause it's used so much, it needs to have a pull.
Caroline
Okay, see, well, now all the dishwash washer or the. The trash can cabinets are like the dishwasher size.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Caroline
And so that is really confusing because you're like, wait, I see two. One's the dishwasher, one's the trash.
Cindy Cantley
But like, which one's which? And the dishwasher is supposed to be on the left if you're right handed. People always argue that with me.
Taryn
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Cindy Cantley
Because you hold the dish in your left hand and rinse it or whatever, and then you don't switch hands to put it.
Caroline
Oh, okay, I like that. That is actually so right.
Cindy Cantley
But everybody thinks it's supposed to be on the right. And if it's been on the right for 25 years, then keep it on the right. But, you know, but technically, if you're right handed, the dishwasher goes on the left, the trash on the right. Okay.
Taryn
Mine is made for me. Then are you left the opposite. I'm left handed and mine's the opposite.
Cindy Cantley
I've heard of.
Caroline
You're a lefty.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, yeah.
Taryn
But I never thought about it. It just.
Caroline
For us.
Taryn
It really was. Again, somebody drew it for us and we're like, here and here. And we're like, okay. Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
No, most people think the opposite. I even have people argue with me, and I tell them, Kitchen Design 101, I learned.
Taryn
You were like, I went to school for this. I can tell you.
Cindy Cantley
But if you want it that way, it's fine with me. And a lot of times I do keep it how it's been, because it's just what you're accustomed to.
Taryn
We did an extra, you know, the size of my kitchen. It isn't petite, but it isn't large.
Cindy Cantley
Large.
Taryn
But we did do a second garage or, sorry, trash can, and it's just a single unit and that I really liked because they're on opposite ends of the kitchen. Like, the sink's over here, and this one's over here. It's near where you enter the house. So, like, it's near the fridge, and one's near the sink. Because you do want the sink. One. For sure.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
So I don't know with your design list, but I will say that has been really. I. Other than taking out more trash.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, well, yeah, that too, but one more trash bag.
Taryn
But they were gonna. We were gonna fill up the other one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz
It kind of goes back to, like, the theory of, like, put your organization items where you actually are.
Taryn
Yeah.
Liz
And. Yeah, so that.
Taryn
Yeah, that's why that one makes sense.
Liz
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
And kitchen. I mean, there's so much thought goes into a kitchen. It really. It's. It's frightening what the things we dwell on and ask, the questions we ask. And if. If two people cook, you know, you have to think differently and. Cause does. You know, someone might make a salad every night. The husband may make a salad. Not mine, but. But some of them do.
Caroline
Or.
Cindy Cantley
Or, you know, or they're grilling, and so you have a grill area for them to put their things. And then it's. It's. Or if you have kids and you want them to help you cook, then you. You think of different things. And. Yeah.
Caroline
Yeah, it seems like you could get. I mean, there's so many. Like, we started with. There's so many accoutrements. But also. Keep it simple, too. Yeah. I mean, and. But you can drop yourself crazy.
Cindy Cantley
You just have to think of. And I think so many people think of their life's gonna be different in this new kitchen, and it's really not. I mean, it's. You know, we're gonna redo the kitchen. We're gonna entertain every weekend. It's like, how often did you entertain now, and they're like, well, twice a year, and it's like, you're gonna do that.
Caroline
Don't design your kitchen for dream cells designed for how you truly live.
Cindy Cantley
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Your life is not gonna change that much. I mean, it's gonna be prettier, and you may have people over more, but you still need to. To design it for how you. You. You and your. Your people live. Right.
Liz
Yeah. That is really, really great advice.
Caroline
It does always seem to lead back to the same point. Every.
Taryn
Every wonderful designer we talk to is
Caroline
like, how do you live?
Taryn
Who are you? What are you into? What do you gravitate towards?
Caroline
You're not going to be someone else
Taryn
in a new home.
Caroline
Yeah. Like, you are who you are.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah, I know.
Caroline
That's a great way to wrap up, though.
Taryn
You are who you are.
Caroline
Good luck. I know.
Cindy Cantley
I know.
Caroline
We could probably talk for another hour, so.
Cindy Cantley
People love to talk about kitchens. It's so funny.
Liz
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
It was very good timing on my part back in the day.
Taryn
I think you did. I think the kitchen again, though, it's the center of the home these days.
Caroline
There's no. It's a huge investment.
Taryn
And it's your biggest investment.
Cindy Cantley
Yes.
Liz
Yeah. You don't really realize how emotionally attached you are to certain things, too, until you start to redesign your kitchen.
Taryn
Yeah.
Caroline
What are your two biggest takeaways from this conversation?
Liz
Honestly? Keep it simple.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah.
Liz
Especially with the cabinets. That's. I keep getting. My Instagram feed is filled with all of these, like, fancy designs for kitchen cabinets and kitchen drawers and all these different places to. But. But as you were talking, just keeping the functionality simple because once it gets off track or gets broken or, you know, little hands or whatever it is,
Cindy Cantley
it gets a lot of use.
Liz
Yeah. Everything gets a lot of use.
Cindy Cantley
That's usually how you can tell where the trash can is. It's the cabinet that's chipping all the chips.
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
Taryn
Yes, it is that one. It's always that one.
Cindy Cantley
I know, I know. It's the most used cabinet in the kitchen. It's the only one we ever usually have to go back and touch up.
Caroline
How fun.
Liz
Yeah.
Taryn
Now you know.
Liz
Excellent. This has been.
Caroline
Oh, my gosh. So thank you so much.
Cindy Cantley
Thank you. Thanks for making it easy. We just talked.
Taryn
I didn't.
Cindy Cantley
I was completely unaware of any of this.
Caroline
That's good. That's what we like. That's what we like to hear. Okay, Cindy, tell everyone, though, where they can find you, follow you, and see your work.
Cindy Cantley
The Instagram account is Cantley Tolman and
Caroline
T O L L M A N
Cindy Cantley
T O U L M I N O U. Sorry. Yes. Or just Cindy Cantley.
Caroline
Okay.
Liz
Yeah.
Cindy Cantley
Cindy with a Y. Cindy with a.
Caroline
Well, two Y's.
Cindy Cantley
Yeah. T Y and D Y.
Caroline
All right, well, thank you so much.
Cindy Cantley
Thank you.
Caroline
And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com podcast to
Taryn
send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcasts at ballarddesigns. Net so we can help you with your space.
Caroline
And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Ballard Designs.
Liz
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback.
Caroline
Until next time, happy decorating.
Release Date: June 23, 2026
Host(s): Caroline, Taryn, and Liz (Ballard Designs)
Guest: Cyndy Cantley, Principal Designer of Cantley and Toumlin
A deep dive into the art and practicality of timeless kitchen design with Cyndy Cantley, a renowned kitchen designer. The episode covers the evolution of kitchen aesthetics, essential dos and don’ts for cabinetry, hardware, appliances, layout, and functionality—exploring what truly makes a kitchen beautiful, practical, and enduring.
[03:04] Notable moment — Their 2nd kitchen project made the cover of Bon Appetit.
[04:32] The phase-out of intense kitchen trends in favor of classics
[31:06] Pocket doors: “If something’s going to break in your kitchen, it’s probably going to be a pocket door...” —Cyndy
“If you love purple, paint the walls purple… but keep the cabinets and the backsplash and the countertops more classic so that you don’t get tired of it and it doesn’t date itself.”
— Cyndy, [07:25]
“No woman needs to pick from 400 door styles. It’s like picking a white paint.”
— Cyndy, [09:24]
“Drawers just make it easier. It’s convenient. It brings everything out to you.”
— Cyndy, [13:08]
“I only recommend a few, actually. Spice drawer I think is the greatest.”
— Cyndy, [16:39]
“It’s frightening what things we dwell on and ask, the questions we ask. And if two people cook, you have to think differently.”
— Cyndy, [62:13]
“Don’t design your kitchen for dream selves; design for how you truly live.”
— Caroline, [63:13]
— “Yes, yeah, yeah… your life’s not going to change that much.”
— Cyndy, [63:19]
Find Cyndy Cantley’s work: Instagram @CantleyToulmin or search “Cindy Cantley” (with a Y).
Hosts: Ballard Designs Team – Caroline, Taryn, Liz
For all show notes and links: www.howtodecorate.com/podcast