10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World

Summary

Podcast Summary: "10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World"

How to Feel Alive with Catherine Price
Episode Date: December 7, 2025
Guest: Dr. Jean Twenge, Professor of Psychology at SDSU, author of iGen, Generations, Generation Me, and the new 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, host Catherine Price talks with renowned psychologist Dr. Jean Twenge about the enormous challenge of raising children amid the pervasive influence of smartphones, social media, and gaming. Drawing on extensive research and her personal experience as both a scientist and a parent of three teens, Jean shares evidence-based insights and ultra-practical advice for parents who want to give their kids the best chance at real-world health, happiness, and connection.

The conversation covers the mental health crisis among today's youth, the direct links between tech use and well-being, and, most helpfully, clear, actionable rules for families navigating the digital landscape—including when (if ever) to allow kids social media, what kind of "first phone" to get, and how to build deeper offline experiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Concern: From Researcher to Advocate

• Rise in Teen Mental Health Issues
  • Jean details her discovery, starting around 2014, of "big increases in teens saying that they felt lonely, left out, like they couldn’t do anything right." (02:38)
  • Symptoms matched classic depression, and the trend persisted.
  • The data "didn’t align with the economy or any other obvious factor." Instead, it corresponded with increased tech use and less real-world connection.
• The Groundbreaking 2017 Atlantic Article
  • Jean’s 2017 article "Have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation?" was controversial but pivotal.
  • "An entire generation of kids were, quote, on the brink of a mental health crisis because of the time they were spending on these devices and apps." (01:08)
  • Now, years later, the data "just kept going. By 2021, [depression rates] had doubled" (07:52).

2. Debunking Popular Narratives

• The COVID Myth
  • Rise in depression and loneliness began nearly a decade before COVID—the pandemic exacerbated but did not initiate the problem.
  • "It doubled between 2011 and 2019... and continued to go up [during COVID], then came down to 2019 levels, but not lower." (07:59)
• "Digital Literacy" and Algorithmic Power
  • Dialogue is not enough: "They have put billions into the algorithms... All these features keep people on the apps for as long as possible... That’s what your teens are up against, something that a lot of adults have a hard time managing." (11:19)
  • The argument that education alone suffices is "just not effective. You have to take it further than that." (12:26)

3. Framing Principles for Parenting in the Tech Age

• Goal-Oriented Parenting

  • Guiding mantra: "The point of parenting is not to raise children, it’s to raise adults." (14:07)
  • Keep long-term well-being central—even if it means setting unpopular limits.

• Reframing Device Access

  • On smartphones: "Imagine a world in which a kid goes to their parents and says... I want you to buy me a gadget that costs $1,000... and I’ll never look up from my hand again." (16:24)
  • On social media: “Now that I'm 12, I want to take 200 pictures of myself in a skimpy bikini... so everyone in my school can see them.” (16:24)
  • If you would never agree to these requests phrased this way, why do so just because they're framed as tech milestones?

• Parents Are in Charge

  • Emphasizes "loving but firm" ("dolphin parenting")—"the skin of a dolphin is firm but flexible" (18:04)
  • Setting clear rules and boundaries provides security and necessary guardrails, even for older teens, whose brains are still developing.

4. The 10 Rules & Gene’s Roadmap for Tech Introduction

Key Practical Takeaways and Timestamps

• Delay, Delay, Delay

  • "We want kids to have a childhood, to have an early adolescence without these pressures." (21:38)

• Ages for Device & Platform Introduction

  • First Smartphone: "You get your first smartphone when you get your driver’s license." (23:15)
    • Not just turning 16, but specifically "with the driver's license or getting around by yourself."
  • Social Media: "No social media until 16—or later, or never." (26:35)
    • Legally set at 13, but this is "not based on any brain development research, just lobbying."

• What About Flip Phones, Tablets, and Landlines?

  • No compelling reason for tablets; "tablets can do what phones do except for actual calling." (29:58)
  • Flip phones or basic, kid-designed phones are great training wheels.
  • Family "loaner phones" and resurgence of landlines can help address safety/communication needs without opening the internet/social media floodgates. (31:23)
  • "It is a huge, huge myth that teens have to have social media to have friends." (35:01)

• Rule: Device-Free Bedrooms

  • "The most important rule in the book in my mind is no devices in the bedroom overnight. And that's not just for kids—that's for adults." (53:23)

• Real World Experience

  • "If they're not on devices, what are they going to do?" Promote real-world freedom: responsibility, jobs, walks, errands, making phone calls—builds life skills and autonomy. (36:43)
  • "You're not just raising kids, you're raising adults." (38:29)

5. Handling the Tech Already in the House

• If You Feel It's "Too Late"

  • "You can say, 'I made a mistake.'" (47:21)
    • This models taking responsibility for kids, and "shows it's not about being a good kid—it's about what the science says and what we know is safer."
    • Swap smartphones for basic phones or add strict parental controls.

• "If your kid flips out, that's often a sign you're doing something right." (45:24)

• Parental Controls

  • Device built-in options (like Apple Screen Time) are "extremely confusing and probably not as effective as you want them to be." (50:19)
  • Use reputable third-party parental control software (listed in Jean's book)—essential for laptops/Chromebooks.
  • On school-issued devices: "School laptops are the bane of my existence because you can't put parental controls on them and they have YouTube." (49:17)

6. Gaming, AI, and New Dangers

• Video Games
  • Fine in moderation AND with time limits: "Half hour or an hour a day at most on weekdays, two hours on weekends." (52:28)
• AI “companions” and gambling
  • A new, disturbing trend; underscores need for strict controls.

7. Phone-Free Schools: A Turning Tide

• "Bell-to-bell" phone bans catch on
  • "The phone is extremely distracting... blanket, bell-to-bell bans are easier to enforce and more effective." (39:48)
  • Positive effects: "Teachers are amazed at how much louder and more energetic school lunchrooms and hallways are now." (42:16)
• Call it "phone-free" (not "phone ban") to emphasize positives. (41:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of algorithms vs education (12:26):

  “I know what an algorithm is, but it still gets me... The companies have put billions into…all of these features which keep people on the apps for as long as possible... The idea that it's just enough to educate them... is just not effective.” —Jean Twenge

• On parental authority (18:04):

  “There’s a ton of research... the one [parenting style] that works best is loving but firm. Some people call it dolphin parenting: the skin of a dolphin is firm but flexible. My kids would call that analogy cringe.” —Jean Twenge

• On waiting for smartphones (23:15):

  "You get your first smartphone when you get your driver’s license. And that has worked so well with our family." —Jean Twenge

• On social media’s minimum age (27:10):

  “No developmental expert ever said 13, puberty, middle school is the best time to introduce social media…It was the result of lobbying, not science.” —Catherine Price

• On "everyone else has one" (34:38):

  “My 19 year old said something recently I thought was awesome: ‘Anyone who insists you can only communicate with them on a specific platform is not actually your friend.’” —Jean Twenge

• On the persistence of childhood happiness (44:52):

  “[After removing the Kindle Fires] they started playing outside more…[My daughter] spent like three hours on the obstacle course outside…things that wouldn’t happen if you did have the option of screens.” —Jean Twenge

• On optimism for the future (54:34):

  "I am mostly optimistic... The phone-free schools is really catching on... And the other piece is just that everybody knows... We should not be handing 10 year olds a phone and that 14 year olds should not be on social media..." —Jean Twenge

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jean’s research background / the Atlantic article — 01:41–04:20
• Mental health crisis data — 07:32–08:40
• Why rules, not just conversations, matter — 10:46–12:26
• Parental authority & “dolphin parenting” — 18:04
• Practical roadmap: when to introduce phones/social media (Driver’s License Rule) — 21:38–23:15
• Flip phones, tablets, landlines, and family loaners — 29:47–31:23
• "Everyone else has one" myth / social connection — 34:38–36:03
• Real world experience & raising adults — 36:43–38:29
• If you already gave your kid a smartphone — 45:24
• Parental controls: necessity and limitations — 49:17–51:36
• Video games and boundaries — 52:28–53:06
• No devices in bedrooms — 53:23
• Jean’s outlook for the future — 54:34

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Additional Resources

• Jean Twenge’s book: 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World
• Newsletter: Generation Tech Substack
• Jean’s website: jeantwenge.com (56:25)

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Closing Reflection

Jean Twenge’s central message is that data backs what common sense and experience also suggest: Kids need real-world connection, boundaries around tech, and a loving-but-firm parental hand. Rules like device-free bedrooms, delayed smartphone/social media introduction, and building opportunities for real-life independence aren't restrictive—they're essential for raising resilient, healthy adults. While tech giants may not make it easy, parents have more power (and more company) than the "everybody has one" myth suggests.

“Parents are in a very difficult position these days…[but] don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You’re going to make mistakes. I definitely did. But try to do the best you can.” —Jean Twenge (13:30)

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Listen at: catherineprice.substack.com

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the how to Feel Alive podcast. I'm Katherine Price, your host, and I am here with Jean Twenge. And I couldn't be more excited for this conversation. As background, Jean is a professor of psychology at San Diego State University. She's the author of more than 190 scientific papers, as well as a number of books based on her research, including Generations Igen and Generation Me. I actually have Igen on my bookshelf and I was going to hold it up, but I realized I took the dust jacket off so I'd just be holding up a red cover. Big fan of it. And she also writes a substack newsletter called Generation Tech where she talks about the research that she does on teens and social media, generational differences, trends in mental health, and perhaps most importantly, actually gives practical advice to people about what to do about all of it. But the reason we are speaking today is that she also has a brand new book and it's called 10 Rules for Raising kids in a high tech World. I believe the technical subtitle is is how parents can stop smartphones, social media and gaming from taking over their children's lives. But I have a new proposed subtitle which is simply to say the book that every parent should read. So gene for a reprint, like, consider that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anyway, welcome. I'm so excited to get to speak to you today.

[B]

I really was looking forward to this conversation as well. Thanks for having me on. Yes.

[A]

So I want to talk to you about a bunch of stuff, but if I had to put it in buckets, I really want to get a sense of, you know, your prior research and your writing on the subject. What led you to write this book and then to do what you do so well in the book, which is give parents some practical things to take away. So I thought we'd start with just a bit of your background because you are what I believe people call an OG in terms of research.

[B]

I have heard people say that before. Yeah.

[A]

Have you? Yes. The original gangster is right here with us. But Jean, you've been researching the impact of smartphones and social media on generations of people for quite some time now. I came across your work first in 2017 when you came out with a very widely read Atlantic article called have smartphones destroyed a generation? Which was very controversial at the time. And I remember I was in the process of writing how to break up with your phone and I was reading it and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, this all makes sense. So much sense. And was so excited about it. But I Know, it was really controversial. So I was wondering if you could just keep. Give listeners a sense of that article, what inspired you to write it and what the response was. Because in it you wrote that you believe that an entire generation of kids were, quote, on the brink of a mental health crisis because of the time they were spending on these devices and apps. So tell me a bit about how that came to be and then what the response was back in 2017.

[B]

Yeah, so I had worked with these big surveys of teens for quite a while at that point, and they ask all kinds of questions. They ask about tech use, they ask about how much time teens spend sleeping, how much time they spend with friends in person, if they have their driver's license, if they have a job, if they've drunk alcohol, all those things. And they also ask about happiness, and they also ask about mental health. So every late October, when that new data comes out, I open it up and see what's going on and, and around there's like an 18 month delay. So it was around 2015, 2016. I started to see maybe 2014. It started big increases in teens saying that they felt lonely, that they felt left out, that they felt like they couldn't do anything right, that their life wasn't useful. And those are classic symptoms of depression. And first I thought it was a blip, but then I kept going. Then also there's a big article on pediatrics finding that clinical level depression was going up. So clearly something was going on, but I didn't know why. I really had no idea. It was a huge mystery. Why was this happening at this particular time? It was misaligned with the economy. Just didn't make any sense. And then I realized through all those other questions that were asked in these surveys, well, teens are spending a lot more time on social media, they were spending a lot more time online, they were spending less time with their friends in person, less time sleeping. You put that together, that's a terrible formula for mental health. So I realized at that point that it was related to how teens were spending their time outside of school.

[A]

Huh. And as a fellow writer, I'm curious about the process here. When you even pitched this to your editor at the Atlantic, how did that go over? Because this was very early. People really weren't talking publicly at all in the same way about the subject they are today. So how was, how was that?

[B]

Yeah, so the Atlantic article is an excerpt of iGen. So that's where we started, you know, and I worked with them a little bit before written a few things for them and sent them the book. And that was what they wanted to feature. Because the book's about a lot of things. It's about a lot of trends around Gen Z, but at the core of it is this argument that that we have this rise in mental health issues among teens and that it's probably caused by those shifts in how they spent their time. So that was what the editor wanted to feature. And they also wanted to feature some of the other stuff that's not quite as bad and maybe is a trade off in terms of teens taking longer to grow up, that they're less likely to have their driver's license or a job or drink alcohol or go out on dates, which. Which those trends started earlier. More like late 1990s, mid-1990s, but go hand in hand with the trend of spending a lot of time online because it doesn't feel as necessary to get your driver's license when your friends are on Snapchat. That may be at least one reason. So they wanted to feature that. And I always like to point out I did not write the headline Editors.

[A]

I know. I feel like I should give all authors a chance to say, I didn't write the headline.

[B]

I know. Exactly, exactly. Editors write the headlines, folks. And it was a question. So those are the two things I always feel like I have to mention. But, you know, they did a good job writing the headline because it was clickbait, but it not necessarily a headline I would have written. But again, that's the editor's job.

[A]

What would you have called it?

[B]

I don't know. Really. Something probably a lot more boring. That would not have gotten as much traction, I'm sure.

[A]

Right, right. You're like the academic question of whether or not there might or may or may not.

[B]

Yeah, I'm generally not that kind of academic. But still, I'm sure it would have had more of a hedge to it and, you know, had a little more subtlety to it.

[A]

Yes. I should also say for anyone listening, Jean is not that type of academic because her writing is very accessible and wonderful to read. And I was just recommending your book to a friend on the phone earlier this morning and saying how practical it is. So that's the idea. But before we get into that, it's now 2025, and I'm wondering what you've seen in your research since then or in other people's research, because one thing you did say that I believe is a direct quote from you is that it's not an exact. This is back in 2017. It's not an exaggeration to describe Igen. And that's the generation that you define as being born. Yeah, Gen z between roughly 1995 and 2012. So you said in 2017. It's not an exaggeration to describe them as being on the brink of the worst mental health crisis in decades and that much of this deterioration can be TR to their phones. So I'm wondering what's happened since then in terms of what more we know and how much bolder you could have made that headline had you written the headline back, you know, if you wrote it today.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, that was early days. We really only had a few years of data of, say, depression going up among teens. And at that point it was about a 50% increase. And by 2021, it was 100% increase, a doubling.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So it just kept. It just kept going from there.

[A]

And what's your take on the whole? Oh, it was Covid.

[B]

Well, clearly it wasn't Covid because it started eight years before COVID Now, Covid did make it worse. That's true. So if you look at the pattern in, say, clinical level depression, it doubled between 2011 and 2019. So before the pandemic. And then it did continue to go up from 2019. 2020, 2021. And then it resolved itself. So in recent years, it's come back to the level of 2019.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that, I think, shows the COVID effect pretty clearly that it was bad and then it got better. But those rates didn't go down to 2011. They went down to 2019.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting. And it kind of emphasizes the point that being isolated on screens does cause

[B]

problems, because that made it even worse. Then they didn't even have going to school and interacting with people that way.

[A]

Gotcha. And so what made you decide to write this particular book? I know you were saying in the, I believe, acknowledgements of your books that you were of this book. You were debating between two books, one of which you did write before this one. But what made you decide, okay, now's the time for me to come in and actually give practical advice and set these 10 rules for parents.

[B]

Yeah. So in 2017, you know, when I was first doing this work, my kids were pretty young. And then now they're teenagers. I have three teenagers. They're 19, 16 and 13. And so I learned a lot over that time through my experiences parenting them. And then also after Igen came out, I started giving a lot of talks to parents and Hearing their questions and their comments and what they were struggling with. So 10 rules is really a collision between my research life and my life as a mom with the mix in there of hearing from so many other parents and what they were dealing with. Because I was just realizing, okay, we know this now, we know about the effects of these technologies, but what do we do about that? And just realizing, reading so much stuff out there, that's advice for parents. It was really squishy and just wasn't specific enough and wasn't practical enough or it would fall under. Talk to your kids about it. Well, of course you should talk to your kids about it, but that's not enough. It's not enough. You have to have rules in place. So that's really what inspired it. Also just finding that's. That was what worked best with my kids. I could talk to them until I was blue in the face, but that wouldn't keep them from trying to get on social media, even though I'm their mom. Didn't matter. What mattered was getting parental control software that kept them from getting on social media.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that actually was something I wanted to ask you about, is that you say very explicitly that, yes, conversations are important with your kids, but they are not enough. We need to actually be firmer and have rules. And. And I'm wondering if you can expand on that a bit, because I think in general that's something parents struggle with these days, and especially with technology, and especially given the message we've been given for years, which I think in many cases is funded by tech companies, that it's like, no, it's just about responsible use, quote, unquote. So can you expand on that a bit for, like, why that is not adequate? It's necessary, but it's not enough to just, quote, have conversations with our kids about tech.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, here's one way to put it. So at a conference in Australia, I was talking to a dad who has five children, and he had heard, you know, some of the other folks at this conference saying, we should talk to kids. It's about digital literacy, teach them what an algorithm is. And he said, I'm in my 50s, I have five children, I know what an algorithm is, but it still gets me. And I think that really sums it up. You know, the tech companies have put billions into the algorithms, into the push notifications, into the gamification, all of these features which keep people on the apps for as long as possible because that's how they make the most money. So that's what your teens are up against something that a lot of adults have a hard time managing. So that idea that it's just enough to educate them and tell them it's a waste of time and tell them that they should cut back on their use, it's just not effective. You have to take it further than that.

[A]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you also mention in the book that, you know, in an ideal world, the products would be made in such a way that these conversations and these rules would not be necessary and perhaps there'd even be regulations for the tech companies. But we are not in that world yet. And therefore, unfair though it may be, it is on parents shoulders to do this, right?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm, you know, I say that a number of times and I really do believe it. You know, parents are in a very difficult position these days. These technologies are extremely under regulated. So it's up to us. And that's spectacularly unfair. And being a parent of teens these days, or kids these days, period is playing whack a mole with devices. And it feels impossible sometimes. But that was one of the things that really inspired me to write the book, was just to try to make it easier for parents as much as possible. Hey, here are some things that worked. Here are some things that might work for you even if you can't do them all. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You're gonna make mistakes. I definitely did. But try to do the best you can.

[A]

Right. And here's some practical suggestions for how to do so. So I want to get into some of those and I thought it'd be useful to start by touching on some of what I kind of think is the framing principles of the book or some of the guiding philosophical points you make that I think are useful for parents to keep in mind when even beginning to think about this. And one that really stood out to me is this mantra I believe you said someone else told you about once that stuck with you when raising your own daughters. And it's the idea that the point of parenting is not to raise children, it's to raise adults. And I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that, explains what it means and how you see that tying into this conversation.

[B]

Yeah, somebody told me that when my kids were toddlers. And it really has stuck with me ever since. That has to be your goal as a parent. Sure, you want your kids to be happy in the short term, but what's even more important is that they are productive, happy adults. In the long term. And when you think about that way, it kind of snaps things into perspective in a lot of ways. And I think it. It does bias more toward having rules and. And especially around technology, if you're thinking about what is going to make this child a productive adult. And spending six hours a day on YouTube is not on that list. So what is on that list is real world freedom, which is Rule 8. And just having limits around technology, that they use it for what it's good for and put it away.

[A]

Right. I think that makes so much sense and is a useful thing to keep in mind that it's like, okay, if your kid is begging for this thing in the moment, you have to keep in mind your goal is not to create a kid who's quote, unquote, happy in the moment, even though I think you and I would both argue they're not actually becoming happier in the moment by watching six hours of YouTube. But you are trying to raise an adult. And sometimes that means setting limits and not being your kid's friend, which I think is also really important. My mom used to always say that to me. Actually, my job isn't to be your friend, but it also ties into a point you make that I think also crystallized things for me and I think for a lot of other people. And I know people have brought this part of your book up to you in prior interviews about your book, but I think it's worth repeating is that you point out the absurdity of the current situation about whether or not we would agree to certain things if they were phrased differently. And if I may quote you back to you for a second, and then you can expand on you being you, you write in. I think it's the first chapter to imagine a world in which a kid goes to their parents and says, now that I'm 10, I want you to buy me a gadget that costs $1,000 plus $40 for every habit, and I'll be able to communicate with my friends and with adults I've never met every second of the day. And by the way, I'll never look up for my hand again. Doesn't sound like a great idea. And then you follow that up with, okay, now that I'm 12, I want to take 200 pictures of myself in a skimpy bikini and put them someplace where everyone in my school can see them and tell me if they like how I look. And I would add, and every pedophile on the Internet, and that's Instagram.

[B]

So the first is a Smartphone, obviously. And that second one is a pretty accurate description of Instagram, I would say.

[A]

A very accurate description of Instagram. Do people read that part back to you? Like a lot. I mean, I heard it in one, but does that. It seems like that's something that's really resonating with people.

[B]

Yeah, I do that in my talks and I put it in the context of if you need inspiration for saying no, then think about what your parents would have said if you had phrased it in that way when you were that age. And I show some really awesome pictures of families from the 70s and 80s. The dads in particular are really styling. Like they have the tuxedo with the ruffles, and there's another dad who's got like a pink shirt that shows the chest hair. And I'm like, you know. So it gets us Gen Xers and older millennials who have teen kids now to think about what would our parents have said if we had come to them with those requests?

[A]

Yeah, I think it's a brilliant.

[B]

They would have said no.

[A]

Yes, yes. And also just to imagine, like that is what our kids are asking us. I should say I have a 10 year old daughter, so this is very top of mind for me right now. And it's like, no, no, you can't do that. But yes, you can have Instagram like that. I think it's such a useful way to kind of reframe that. And I also love this gets into the rules. And I want to then segue into some practical suggestions you have. But the other really important framing, philosophical point that I took away from this is actually rule number one in your book. But it's the idea that we adults are in charge, as you put it. And I'm wondering if you can expand on what that means both I guess, philosophically and in a practical sense of why it's so important for us to keep in mind when we're talking with our kids and making decisions about technology for our kids.

[B]

Yeah. So there's a ton of research in psychology on parenting styles, and the one that works the best is loving but firm. So some people call it dolphin parenting. So the skin of a dolphin is firm but flexible. My kids would call that analogy cringe. But I like it anyway.

[A]

I know, I like that you're like, no, I am still using it. Thank you for your opinion.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I get to decide. I wrote the book.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I like that analogy. I think it's a good one. And it means you put the rules in place. But Then you still have eight loving empathic relationship with your kids. And it makes sense that that would, would be the best as opposed to say, these are the rules my way or the highway or hey, we're not really going to have many rules. We're just going to talk every once in a while and you can do what you want. That's more permissive parenting. So neither one of those works that great. But having that kind of happy medium works the best. And in that way, kids can get boundaries, which they need. They need boundaries, including around technology, because for one thing, as I said, the companies are conspiring against all of us and they don't have the self control that adults do. And I think it's really tempting, especially when you see a full grown teenager, to think, oh, they'll be fine, but their brain is different. And I love teenagers, by the way, and I teach undergraduates and I studied adolescents and I'm, you know, done that for decades. And I think it's such a fascinating, wonderful, amazing, awesome time. But they don't always make great decisions. That's part of being a teenager. And that's why being the parent of a teenager, you have to put those boundaries in place.

[A]

I think that makes a lot of sense. And it also ties back to that hypothetical question about paying $1,000 for this thing your kid wants that, you know, is not going to be a good idea. I think a lot of parents feel somehow powerless in the face of that question. And I think that your point that we are in charge also, we make the money. That's very important. You also make a point. At some point you could have a rule for your kid that you can get a smartphone when you earn the money to get a smartphone. And that teaches all sorts of other responsibilities along the way. But that makes me want to segue into asking you some really practical questions. So Again, Gene has 10 rules through this book. But I don't want to just go through those rules because I. Well, first of all, that'd be kind of boring and I'm sure you're tired of that. But also I remember when I wrote my first big book was called Vitamania, it was about the history of vitamins and nutrition. But I remember doing this interview with this guy and he just said, so tell me about chapter three. And I was sitting there and I was like, I don't actually remember what chapter three said. And then he's like, tell me about chapter seven. Anyway, you clearly remember all your rules, but it was like I was like, I don't want to do that. So what I want to ask you instead is to start with you lay out what essentially is a roadmap through these rules for how parents of younger kids or kids who don't have these things yet can approach the question of introducing their kids to technology. They're very practical steps, you know, including ages at which you should consider getting your kid, allowing your kid to be on social media, if you do at all, smartphones, the point about what type of phone should be your kid's first phone. So I'm wondering if you could tell me a bit about this roadmap if you were to lay out, starting from when your kid's born, until they get that smartphone and the Gene Twenge approved world of how this would work. Tell me.

[B]

Yeah, well, and this is what we've done in my family too. So we practice what I preach and it's also just what we found works. So it's kind of centered around the idea that we really want kids to have a childhood. We want them to have an early adolescence without these pressures. So to introduce the technologies when they're ready. And I've read a lot of people say, oh, you know, okay, when should you give a kid a smartphone? When they're ready? Well, how do you know that? And it's like, oh, every kid is different. But that's not how we usually do these types of things. We age gate, we choose an age and stick with it for when kids are ready to drive, when legal adulthood is, and they can vote when they can drink alcohol. You know, alcohol is a great example because that varies among countries, but you pick an age and you stick with it. The other thing is it's actually easier to do that because if you tell your kid, oh, you know, we'll do this when you're ready, they are going to tell you every single day that they're ready and they're going to make that case. And they may Even make a PowerPoint presentation for you or something.

[A]

Totally would do that. Totally. 100%, yeah.

[B]

And they're going to badger you every second to say that they're ready and why.

[A]

Well, you also made the point that ties in there that you say that if you make a decision about phones and social media and stick with it, you will have one fight with your kids versus if you open that door that you just mentioned or let alone get them those things, you're going to have a fight every single day. So I think that's important to keep in mind. Which would you rather have one Or a lot.

[B]

Exactly. And I think a lot of parents get their kid, even a relatively young kid, a phone because they want to reach them and they solve that one problem and they create 200 more. And then again, it's lots of fights. So one of the rules in the book is you get your first smartphone when you get your driver's license. Now, if you're in an urban area, it can be 16 and they're getting around by themselves to a friend's house or school or whatever. But that has worked so well for us as a family. So I have a 16 year old now, that's my middle one, turned 16 a few weeks ago, but she doesn't have her driver's license yet, so no smartphone yet. And we had that discussion, you know, a couple months before she turned 16. She said, well, can't it be just 16? You know, does it have to be with the driver's license? I was like, nope, the rule is with the driver's license. And that was it. And it was one calm conversation and then it was dropped because she knows what the rule is, so it actually is easier. And this is my arguing kid, by the way. This is the pushback one. Yeah. So it worked even with her, which is kind of a miracle.

[A]

You're like, oh, I surprised myself.

[B]

Yeah, a little bit.

[A]

But why the driver's license? Because you talk about how it's not just the fact that they turn 16, there's other things that are tied to the driver's license that are important to you.

[B]

Yeah. So 16 is a nice age because then beyond that first year of high school, there's just so much maturity that happens between, say, the ages of, I don't know, 11, when a lot of kids get a phone. Just comparing an 11 year old to a 16 year old night and day, you know, in terms of their attitude, their response, sense of responsibility, just all of those things. But I do tie it specifically to the driver's license or getting around by yourself because for one reason, then there's not the choice of, oh, mom and dad are busy, they can't drive me to my friend's house. So I guess I'll go on Snapchat or Instagram. It can be, I can get in the car and go see my friends. So it makes social media less tempting. It makes being on the phone less tempting when you have that freedom to get around by yourself.

[A]

And you also make the point, I believe in the book that, well, first of all, it's obviously motivating. Right? Like you're Seeing that with your daughter, fascinating to think that these days it's more motivating. What am I trying to say? The thing that seems more important to a lot of kids is the smartphone instead of the driver's license. So you have to use the smartphone is the lore to get kids to want a driver's license, which to a

[B]

Gen Xer like me is like really? But yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And you know, kids differ on this. My, my oldest was chomping at the bit to get that driver's license. My middle one, the one who doesn't have the license quite yet, she's trying, but I don't think there would have been that fire to get that license if it hadn't have been for that incentive.

[A]

Right, right, right. And you also make the point then they can use the maps and also their brains are a bit more developed, which is really. I mean, I'm with you. And you also make the point in the book that if you wait till at least 16 for smartphone, you also are solving the social media problem. I mean, what are your thoughts about social media? But like my thought is that once you give a kid a smartphone, you're giving them social media, then you're starting this whole kind of whack a mole thing of trying to make sure they're not on social media but they have a pocket sized device and the desire to be on social media. So tell me about your thoughts on the appropriate time if ever to, you know, let your kids be on social media.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, really all builds, it all builds on itself. So rule 3 is no social media until 16. Or later.

[A]

Or later. I like that.

[B]

If it can be later, that's that it should probably be later.

[A]

Or never.

[B]

Or never. Yeah, that's also an option. And you know, there's, there's a lot of consensus around that idea that we should wait because right now, you know, it's 13. But even that isn't enforced. And 13 is such a stupid age to try to introduce it. I have a 13 year old. And no, that is not the right time to introduce social media.

[A]

Yeah. And to clarify what you're talking about, for those who don't know, it's that there actually is a legal requirement that these companies are not supposed to allow kids onto their platforms till they're at least 13. But that's the result of a law that hasn't been updated since it was passed in 1998. And it basically was because of lobbying. It was not because of any brain development or Child development, any kind of. Any kind of science. They just set it at 13. It originally was supposed to be at 16. So. Sorry, go on. Context.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You're mad.

[B]

I know. Me too well. Because what parent or educator, developmental Expert Ever said 13? You know, puberty, middle school. That's the best time to introduce social media.

[A]

Right? Right. Those bikini photos. Let's do it now.

[B]

Right? I mean, it just. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It really doesn't. So that's the idea behind putting off the smartphone. Because, yeah, you can. You can put in the parental controls on the smartphone. And I do recommend, even when they're 16 or 17 and they have that driver's license, you know, make it so they can't download apps, you know, without you putting the parent code in there. And then it's a discussion rather than a unilateral thing. But it's going to get a lot harder. It's a lot harder to keep them off social media when they have that. That smartphone in their pocket. So if you feel like your kid really needs some kind of phone, get him a flip phone. Get him a basic phone designed for kids that doesn't have social media, doesn't have an Internet browser and doesn't have AI companion apps, doesn't have AI boyfriends and girlfriends, which is like the new concern. It doesn't have gambling apps. I mean, there's all of these things.

[A]

I'm just going to pull my. My, my turtle.

[B]

I know. Let's all be like, I know. That's what I want to do, is just pull back into my shell anytime I think about this. Because it is incredibly disturbing and frightening to think. I mean, it's just. It's yet another reason to not hand your kid a smartphone with no parental controls. Because if you do that, there's nothing to prevent them from having their first romantic relationship with a chatbot.

[A]

In fact, it's probably pretty likely at this point. Like, I think we can say another rule, you know? I know. Jeez. It's so hard to write books about technology because it changes so fast.

[B]

But stuff didn't exist when I was writing the book.

[A]

Right. Didn't even exist. So rule 11 might be. No. No AI relationships for children. That would be.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. But before we go down that pit of existential despair which consumes a lot of my waking hours, you were just talking about, just to summarize what you just said, really not getting your kid a smartphone until at least when they get a driver's license. And same for Social media, if not later, for the younger kids. You just touched on this briefly, but can you outline your thoughts on kind of like the zero to the driver's license phase of how you would approach in an ideal world?

[B]

Well, one thing I was thinking about when I wrote this book was that I can't think of a really compelling reason for any kid to have a tablet.

[A]

Yes. Talk about the tablet.

[B]

Right? So laptops, useful for homework, especially starting in middle school. That's a whole other can of worms which we can get into is the problem with the laptops. But I can see a function for it. There's a function for having a cell phone. There's not really a unique function served by a tablet. And tablets can pretty much do everything

[A]

a smartphone can, except call your friends on the phone. I guess you can FaceTime do the

[B]

thing that might actually be a real time social connection. So there's just really not a compelling reason. And if you're thinking, well, what about the airplane, you know, and my kids, then we want them to do that a little bit on the airplane. We'll give them yours and you can read a book. Two birds with one stone. Encouragement to read a book or do something.

[A]

I know and a lot of adults say they want, I mean, for my work with how to break up with your phone. When I ask people, what's something you wish you had time for but don't, you know, supposedly. Yeah, reading a book. Like I really want to read more books. So I think that just to really highlight what you just said, I think it's really important that you don't have to give their, your kid their own device. Really, at any point in their childhood. It can be. If there's a reason to use it at some point, it can be yours. And then you take it back. Like I often suggest, and I think you were saying this as well, that you did this with your family, is that you have a family loaner phone, which is like a kind of basic flip phone or some phone that doesn't belong to anybody and you can lend it.

[B]

We haven't done that, but I do like that as a solution. So what you might remember is that youngest daughters, my kids, did they use my husband's phone to text their friends before they had their own phone.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard of other people that were. It's like they just have a flip phone they keep in a drawer.

[B]

Yeah. And I. And that's, that's good too.

[A]

I've also really gotten into. I'm curious about Your thoughts about this? The new resurgence in landlines where it's like, okay, if you want to have privacy to talk with your friends, which is developmentally appropriate. Right. You can take the landline to. Landline being an Internet enabled phone that technically doesn't have a cord to it. Probably. But you can like go talk to your friend on the phone in your bedroom, but you cannot have a device in your bedroom. Curious about your thoughts on that. I'm like really into landlines these days. I feel like everyone should get one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We gave ours up when we moved. We had one at our previous house. And there are definite downsides to not having that landline. It means if you're going to leave your kids at home, which you should be able to do once they're, I don't know, how old, 8, 9, 10, then, well, if they don't have a phone, how are they going to reach you? So you end up with one of these catch 22s. You want to give them that freedom to leave them at home for an hour or two, but then thinking if they don't have a phone, then again you're trying to solve one problem and create a bunch of others. So I think that's the really compelling argument for a landline.

[A]

Yeah. And just to point out that I think a lot of people hesitated about landlines because they used to be so expensive and be part of your cable bill or whatever. But now you can buy these ones that just use your Internet connection. They look like a normal phone. I have one right here. Look at this. This is ours. I don't think it's charged. I'm holding up a phone for anyone who can't see me. But it's great because it means that my husband and I can also step away from our smartphones that just have calls forwarded to this landline. And it's like a one time fee and then 10 bucks a month.

[B]

I mean, it's not what companies do that.

[A]

This One is an UMA 2. Okay, two O's.

[B]

Yeah, someone else told me about that. That's really cool.

[A]

Yeah, it's actually free if you don't want the call forwarding. It's like you get extra features for the $10, but otherwise you could just buy the phone and then use your Internet. There's a new one a lot of parents are getting for their kids called Tin can, which is a little bit more controlled where you, you have to actually enter numbers that they're permitted to call. But the general idea is just they look like old fashioned phones that we grew up with, they do one thing which is call people. And to me at least it like satisfies that desire that kids have to talk with their friends and connect in a way that's much healthier. I mean, obviously the best thing is to be in person, but if you're not going to be in person, at least go talk in your phone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And then I know you also just talk in the book about delay, delay, delay. I think you were just getting to that. Like, why do your kid need any kind of tech at a very young age?

[B]

Right. I mean, exactly. And that, that really informs a lot, I think, of the rules. So the smartphone with the driver's license is a great example. They don't really need a smartphone before that. They don't. There's really no compelling reason to have a smartphone, especially if they have Internet access on a laptop. There's really no compelling reason for them to have a smartphone before they start driving.

[A]

Well, what do you say to the age old, everybody else has one. That kind of. Or I'm worried my kid's gonna be left out because I thought you had some pretty good responses to those common questions.

[B]

Yeah, well, again, sometimes I think back to what our own parents said when we said, but I'm the only one, or I'm gonna be left out, or everybody else has one. They would say, if everybody else went and jumped off a cliff, would you like nobody says that anymore. But that used to be the parent go to.

[A]

That was at the Brooklyn Bridge. Everyone was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge.

[B]

Yeah, right. You know, exactly.

[A]

Yeah, just lemmings.

[B]

Right? And that used to be the response. And that would. And that'd be it. Discussion would be over. So I think it is a huge, huge myth that teens have to have social media to be able to have friends. I hear that all the time. And it's just plain untrue. And I know that from my own kids and I know that from talking to lots of parents around the country. It's just not true. There's so many other ways they can communicate with their friends. They can call them on that landline. If they have a phone where they can do this, they can FaceTime, they can text, especially if they have a basic phone designed for kids. They can text their friends, they can do all these things. They don't have to have social media. They do not need to be communicating on algorithmic social media. And my 19 year old said something recently I thought was awesome. She said, anybody who insists that you can only communicate with them on a specific platform is not actually your friend.

[A]

Ooh, that's good. Mm.

[B]

I thought so too.

[A]

Right. Because it's like, what's more important, this relationship or having a snapstreak.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. I also think it's interesting to think of the fact that having friends is a basic human desire and need. And, you know, it's a need. And so we will figure out a way to connect with people. And it's interesting to think that one of the reasons kids are on social media so much is not just the algorithms, but it's because they don't have these other ways to connect with each other. They don't have these other opportunities to spend time together in the real world. And I know that you have in your book, one of the rules is to give kids more responsibility and experiences in real life. And I'm wondering if you can expand a bit on that. Something that, you know, Lenores Canazy, who wrote Free Range Kids, and then John Height both write about as well. But you have a. You have your own take on that. So can you tell me a bit about that?

[B]

Yeah, it is really key because, yeah, if they're not on their devices, then what are they going to be doing? Plus, you know, I teach undergraduates, I see all the time also in giving talks, how many people say I can't. You know, when they talk about students. Campuses say people work in, like, student affairs or student life office or in the dorms, the counseling center. So often they say to me, I have more and more students who can't make even simple decisions without texting their parents. And the reason why is because they haven't gone out of the house without their parents all that much. They never had a driver's license or a job. They've never called to make a doctor's appointment. They haven't had that freedom of walking or biking to school or to a friend's house. It's gone out of style to drop your kids off at the amusement park or the ice cream parlor with their friends on their own. And to have that kind of freedom. And that's one of the things we have to try to turn around because our kids are missing out on a lot of really important developmental stuff. Because, yeah, they might be perfectly smart and they might have a great gpa and then they get to college and they can't organize their life, and they have never had to do laundry and they've never had to take responsibility for planning their time, and it doesn't go well. And that's the other piece about, you know, you're not just raising kids, you're raising adults and that it's just so, so key. And I've really seen that in the past year too, because my oldest is a college freshman and in the Navy Reserves. And just seeing how having that real world freedom that she had has really paid off for her.

[A]

Well, it's so interesting because it's a lot of things that you wouldn't think. I was just talking to my friend this morning about this. You wouldn't think I'm teaching my kid a lesson right now by like having them make a phone call or in the past, you wouldn't have thought this. Or sending them to the store. Like my friend just sent her daughter to the grocery store with her friend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, they had it, I don't know how they like $10 and they went and they just bought some snacks for themselves, but it was with cash, so they had to figure out money and use math and they had to interact with the person at the checkout counter. All these little things that I don't think that people of our generation would have thought of as teaching kids a lesson until you take it away. And then as you're saying from your perspective as a professor, you start to see, oh my goodness, this is what happens when kids don't have this practice. We took away the stuff. Training we didn't even know was training because it used to just be life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that's a really interesting point.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

[A]

And I had a friend actually who's a psychologist, and I remembered her saying that she, she had seen examples of where kids as young as middle school were texting their parents throughout the school day to solve problems with their friends. So the idea that it kind of starts even earlier, this dependence on parents to be these problem solvers. And I know that you're also a strong advocate, as am I, for phone free school days. I'm wondering if you want to talk a bit about that. That's also one of your suggested rules.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And you know this. I think it goes both ways. Yeah. That there are some kids who then are trying to have their parents solve their problems, and then there's other kids who have parents who are actively trying to solve their problems who would really welcome not having that interference during the school day. There's a lot of high school students who talk about how stressful it is that their parents are texting them about what grade they got on the last test and things like that. And so with that constant umbilical cord, they're not developing again, that independence, that decision making, that ability to deal with problems on their own to, oh, they got the bad grade on the test, they can't call mom or text mom right away, that they have to deal with it. And that is good preparation for adulthood. And overall, I mean, there's just so many reasons to have no phones during the school day, bell to bell, that kids talk to each other at lunch when they don't have access to the phone, that they learn how to live and think without the phone for that time. And then really, what we should be telling every high school principal who's not so sure about it, it will improve test scores. There's a bunch of studies, mostly in college students, but there's some high school students too. The phone is extremely distracted, extremely distracting. And if you have a classroom by classroom, well, then some teachers are going to be the cool teacher who lets us use our phones and the other be the strict teacher. And it puts teachers in a really terrible position to have to be the ones to enforce it. If it's a blanket bell to bell ban, it's easier. Again, those rules that are simple are actually easier to enforce and more effective.

[A]

Yeah, that's a very good point. Just to take, you know, just deciding, no, in our family, I mean, I know you also make the point that you can say to your kids, well, different families have different rules. You know, in our family, the rule is that you're not going to get these devices until X. Right. And then the rule is simply that, yeah, it's a phone free school day. And I personally love the phrasing phone free school day instead of phone ban because that also emphasizes what you're talking about, which is the positive aspects of this. I mean, I've heard, I recently came across an anecdote from a teacher who said that the students had just had a food fight in the cafeteria, which hadn't happened in years. And I think the teacher was saying, I was so proud of them. Like a lovely and also really surprising anecdote in terms of how bad things have become. Like so many teachers are saying, wow, I can't believe how loud the lunchroom is now or how loud the hallways are.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Which is wonderful. And I think that when we do set these rules for our kids, instead of just being restrictions, they open up all these other opportunities for them. And one of the suggestions you have in your book that I really loved is to have your kids Brainstorm, you know, 25 things that they would do if screens didn't exist. And have you actually done that? And if so, like, what are some things that came up that. Do you remember any specific examples? I think it's something actually, honestly, adults might want to do. Like, what are 25 things you would do with your time if screens did not exist?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I. I actually haven't done that with my own kids yet. I'm embarrassed to say I need to do that, like, tomorrow or today, but I. It does. It makes me think of when my kids were a little younger, the kind of my first experience with taking, you know, screens away when they had them. So there's a. There's a graph in Igen that has, like, a pretty long list of the ways teens might spend their time outside of school. And then it's linked to happiness. And everything that was on a screen was linked to more unhappiness. Everything that wasn't on a screen was linked the other way to less unhappiness and thus more happiness. It was really stark. And I made that graph for the book, and I literally, after I got done with it, pushed my chair back from my desk, went and got my kids Kindle fires, put them in desk drawer, and got rid of them. You know, like, we're not gonna use

[A]

them anymore, because a Kindle Fire used to be basically like an iPad, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was like, I'm a book reader. But no, you were not.

[B]

That was the problem. So that's why we got them originally was so they can read a bunch of books. And we gave them unlimited time for reading books and one hour a day of videos on it. And you know what they would do? They would watch the hour of video, and then they would never use it to read books. It was like it was a brick. So at that point, I was like, okay, sure, it's just an hour, but we'll get another hour. We'll get an hour back in the day and get rid of those. And I was actually kind of surprised. Like, my oldest was maybe 10 at the time, and it took her like, three days to say, where's my Kindle fire? And I was like, well, we're just not going to use those anymore. And so they started playing outside more. I think it was that weekend or the weekend after my oldest said, hey, you know, I'm going to do an obstacle course in the backyard. And she then whispers to me, because she has two younger sisters. She says, I'm going to say it's superhero training. I was like, oh, cool. You're probably going to go into sales when you're older because that's brilliant. It worked. And yeah, they spent like three hours on the obstacle course outside. So I love that.

[A]

All these things that wouldn't happen if you did have the option of the screens. Right. I think that we forget that kids actually are incredibly creative, way more creative than adults are in many cases, and they can figure out ways to amuse themselves and entertain themselves. And we need to almost give them the chance to engage in that creativity. We're almost blocking that when we give them screens. But that's. That segues into one of the things I wanted to ask you about before we wrap up, which is that, you know, one of the most common questions is the parents who say, I already gave my kid a smartphone. They already have social media.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is, I think, personally, from my experience, one of the hardest questions to answer. Yes, you have some really practical suggestions in your book, including the fact that if your kids do freak out about pulling back on these devices, that's probably a sign that you're doing something right. But I'm wondering what response you give when you get this question of, well, what if it's too late? My kids already have these things. I feel totally paralyzed. I know it's not going well, but what do I do? What do you say?

[B]

Yeah, and I do, I get that a lot, you know, and I get a lot of defeatism of, oh, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, or even just in general, why should we even try? You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's all hopeless. This is just the way kids are now. No, no. And okay, yeah. So let's take that practical thing. You've given your kid a phone. So the last talk I gave for parents, this question came up and my first question was, how, how old of a kid are we talking about? And so they said, well, it's two of them. One is 12, the other is 15. I was like, okay, 15 year old, sure, that's close enough. But put parental controls on it so they're not downloading apps. And if they're on social media and you don't want them on social media, then get rid of it or put a really strict time limit on it. But for the 12 year old, I said, no, get rid of that smartphone and get them a basic phone designed for kids and tell them it's this or no phone at all.

[A]

And to clarify for people who don't know a basic phone is basically like a training wheel type phone where it doesn't have access to the Internet, it does not have social media. They have a variety of different options for what you can and can't add to it. So you kind of. It requires some comparison shopping.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, there's companies like Gab or Trumi or Pinwheel or Bark that have these phones, but it basically allows your kid to get used to the concept of a phone. They look like, in these cases, they actually look like smartphones because they're smartphones with an Android operating system. But what. Yeah. And do you have any suggestions for parents on how to stay firm if their kid just totally freaks out, which, you know, many kids would, at least at first.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's always the hard part. But just again, think long term for what's best for them in the long term. And I think from what we know now, just research based, common sense based everything, 12 year olds, 13 year olds, even 14 year olds are not old enough for a smartphone and they're not old enough for social media. And we know that you just, you have to draw that line and you can say I made a mistake. And I actually think that is not a bad thing to say as a parent. I think you're taking responsibility. I think you're modeling how to take responsibility and to say I'm sorry and I made a mistake and I know that makes things more difficult, but I'm going to try to correct that mistake and they're going to tell you it wasn't a mistake and I'm fine and you know, it's okay and I'm a good kid and I use it responsibly and you know, wouldn't it be worse if I was on drugs and whatever, you know, thing they're going to pull out of their pocket, but just say no, this is, this is the decision and I'll get you a phone where you can still text your friends and it's still going to look like an Android phone. It's not going to stand out like a flip phone, but that's what we're going to do.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's very important. And also emphasizing it's not about whether you're quote, a good kid or not. There's forces more powerful than any of us, which is to say these companies with algorithms that are making money off of your time and attention and not protecting kids from all of these truly dangerous people. It's far more dangerous to be spending time alone on social media than it is to go to the playground.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, all the pedophiles just hang out on Snapchat. Like why bother leaving the house? You don't have to leave the house.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The last two things I just wanted to touch on with you is this question of video games and then separately parental control. So feel free to go with whichever one you feel like talking about first. But those are two subjects I think are very important. Lots of questions come up about video games. And then also parents I don't think are aware of how important parental controls are or what the options are for those parental controls. So can you touch on both of those?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So parental controls. This is where, speaking of making mistakes, this is where I made mistakes because we've done really well with the phones. You know, I have a kid who's 16 and she still has a basic phone that has been easy in comparison to laptops where they do their homework and they have Internet access and they have to have Internet access. And school laptops are the bane of my existence because you can't put parental controls on them and they have YouTube on them. And I just found out my youngest, she was watching Disney plus because they didn't have that blocked. So just be aware that rule is worded as beware because you know, you don't have as much direct control over that. But let's say you're lucky and your kid can use a personal laptop for homework and taking to school. Then you can get parental control software and you can try using the device controls. But they're really hard to use. They keep changing. They're not as comprehensive as I'd like. I tried. I tell the story in the book about the days long exercise in frustration that was trying to set up those Mac laptops. But then.

[A]

Yeah, I think your title of that section was Apple I love you but your parental controls suck. If I may correct. And you also wrote a very funny, I mean funny in a haha. But I'm also really upset way op ed I think in the Washington Post about your attempts to set up screen time. So parents out there, if you can't figure out screen time. Gene.

[B]

That's right. I know. And you know, I was able to figure out a couple things on it, but it's really complicated. And then kids find workarounds for it and it's just extremely frustrating. So yeah, getting third party software, it's like 60 bucks a year. I think it. I actually am. I'm really mad that parents have to spend money to protect their kids on the Internet. But that's where we are. And it's less than a streaming service. So, you know, it's not terrible and it's not perfect. I haven't found that it does everything, but it does about 90% of what I want it to do. And top of that list is to keep them off social media, to keep them off pornography websites and to keep them off gambling websites. And it does that pretty well. So that's the other thing I really recommend is your kid has a laptop, then you got to put controls on it because if you don't, there's nothing to stop them from getting on Pornhub because all you have to do is click I am 18 enter

[A]

or mistype a search.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, because a lot of times people stumble across stuff accidentally or kids are curious and they want to know about bodies and you know, they end up not learning what they're supposed to learn, but seeing hardcore porn.

[A]

Exactly. Natural curiosity again, leading to really, I mean, as you put it, one another thing to say to your kid is I'm protecting you from seeing things you can't unsee. Which I think is a really useful line. So the takeaway there is everyone you do need to do the parental controls and probably the native built in options on Apple and Android systems are at very best extremely confusing and also probably not as effective as you want them to be. So Jean actually lays out some suggested third party companies in her book that do a better job at this. So please do that. All right, and our last minutes of video games, what do we do? I. Yeah, that's a big one. And Roblox, I mean those things that don't seem like, they seem like they're for kids. But I've got thoughts. What are your thoughts?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, so video games in general, it is true, a lot of kids play with their friends and it's in real time, so it's not as obviously toxic as social media or you know, as linked to depression, say, but it is linked to depression at higher levels of use. So if you're okay with your kids being on video games and playing with their friends, okay. But put a time limit on it and pretty fairly strict time limit. So like a half hour or an hour a day at most on weekdays, two hours at most on the weekends.

[A]

And you can use parental controls in some cases to control that, right?

[B]

You can. And then consoles have parental controls built in.

[A]

Oh, actually the consoles reminded me of one of your most important rules because you do have these general suggestions for boundaries with tech. And one of the Most important things you say is keep devices of all kinds of including consoles out of bedrooms at night and then make certain areas for your home phone free zones. So I should make sure to mention that as well.

[B]

Yeah, because I mean the most important rule in the book in my mind is no devices in the bedroom overnight. And that's not just for kids, that's for adults.

[A]

I'm glad I waited till the very end to ask you about that. But for those devoted listeners, it's true though I hear from so many adults that getting their phones out of their bedrooms and getting an alarm clock, which is a pretty, you know, if you think about it, basic idea they've told me it's life changing and it's like literally changed my life. And it makes me laugh because I'm like, why did I bother writing the whole book? I could have just said get your phone out of your bedroom. You know, you reclaim the time before bed, you sleep better and then you don't start your day based on other people's input coming in through your screen, you know. So I'm very behind that as well. All right, well, before we wrap up, I guess I wanted to ask you just a question about. I think this is what young people see these days to get a vibe check if we, if you will. I like, where do you, how are you feeling these days? I don't know if you're going to be optimistic or pessimistic. So we could, we have to brace ourselves for both listeners. But compared to how you were feeling in 2017 in the response to that article, here we are in 2025. Obviously this is a conversation that's happening in a much, much, much, much broader sense now. But how are you feeling about where we are now in the future?

[B]

Yeah, I would say I am mostly optimistic. My pessimism is the hope of getting any kind of regulation of social media or age gating at a national level anytime soon. I just don't think that's going to happen in the US Australia is doing it. We'll see how it goes for them. It's going into effect soon, but I don't know, I just can't see the political will being there. Even though it's like one of the few issues, it's actually bipartisan. I don't know if that'll ever pass. I really hope it would because then it would really help out a lot of parents and kids. But where I have optimism is the phone free schools is really catching on the way for a day bell to bell. No phones that seems to be gaining momentum, which is wonderful to see. And the other piece is just that everybody knows. I mean, I think everybody kind of knew in 2017, but I got more pushback then and now it's just much more accepted that we should not be handing 10 year olds a phone and that, you know, 14 year olds should not be on social media, which is great and it's great to see that. It's great to have friends.

[A]

And I will say, you know, you really did so much work jump starting that conversation back in 2017 and I'm personally so grateful to you for all the work you've done over the years and it truly is a delight to get to speak to you now. So yeah, my last question to you is if there's anything else I missed that you want to mention. And then also, where can people find out more about you and your work Besides buying Gene Twenge's new book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World, and subscribing to your Generation Tech Substack newsletter, which is excellent, but anything else you want to add or anywhere else people should look for you.

[B]

Yeah, I do have a website. I'm not the best at keeping up with it, but I try to keep it updated every few months at least. Jeantwangy.com so it has all my books because I've done a lot of stuff on generational differences and speak engagements and interviews and all that good stuff.

[A]

Great. Well, thank you so much again both for joining me on this podcast and sharing your wisdom with my listenership, and also just for everything you have done and continue to do to help the next generation of kids. So both for myself and my, my own daughter, I'm just so grateful. And thank you for, thank you for speaking with me today.

[B]

Thank you. I'm grateful to you as well and for your work as well.