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- [00:01]
A
All right. Hi, Ross Gay.
- [00:04]
B
Hi, how are you?
- [00:05]
A
I'm doing wonderfully. Everyone who is listening, you know how delighted I am because I'm sitting here with Ross Gay, who, among many other things, he's a best selling author and he writes essays and poems and has won all sorts of awards. And I don't know if you still teach, but at least used to teach. And I would imagine you do still teach. Yes. Would be an amazing teacher, but for our purposes, truly inspirationally, he's the inspiration behind the delight practice that I've talked a lot about on my substack. And Ross and I just hopped on the phone, so I haven't even told him the backstory of this. So I will share with all of you and him as well. There was some point during the pandemic when I was walking around talking to my friend Vanessa on the phone and she said, I've been reading this book by this poet named Ross Gay and it's about delights. And she told me a bit about the premise, which is basically that Ross wrote a poem nearly every day about something that delighted him. An essay yet. Excuse me. And Vanessa said, I think we should try this. And I was like, oh, okay, that's kind of interesting. And she said, you gotta find something that delights you and put a finger in the air and say delight and just appreciate delights. And. And so we kind of laughed about that. And then we also had a laugh because we were like, it would be pretty funny if instead of a delight practice, we'd flipped it around and just did anxiety, you know, or like fear. It was the middle of a very stressful time. So anyway, Vanessa and I started this and then I started to write this book about fun, which has many, many overlaps. It's one of the many reasons I'm so excited to talk to you with you. Ross and I worked that into it as a way to kind of build more playfulness and appreciation and, you know, active paying attention, all sorts of positive things into our lives. And now, I mean, I always talk about you in your book, but I bring it up every time I give a talk. And I've been getting whole audiences of people to put their fingers in the air and say delight and to share this practice. And I. I've even had, you know, I remember running into a guy outside a men's room at some conference I did. And he goes, we just did that delight thing in the men's room at the urinal. And I feel like you would define that to be delightful and and my family and I have started a delight practice. So I'm showing Ross right now. I have a jar of delights. And that's my daughter's handwriting, which I think is itself a delight. And we write delights down and just have a jar of delights. And. And she and I. And I mean our whole family. But my daughter, she's nine, we have a delight practice ourselves. Whenever we see a beautiful tree or like, something that delights us, we point them out to each other. And there's even an alley that we walk down. I deliberately park a bit further away from her school than I need to so we can walk down what we call delight alley. So all this is to say your work has profoundly affected my life. And I know it's affected millions of other people's lives. And I'm just absolutely thrilled to get to talk to you today.
- [02:45]
B
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm glad to talk to you too. What's in that alley?
- [02:48]
A
The alley? You'd appreciate this. It's a garden. So Ross also is from Philadelphia, and it's on Waverly street, around 24th Street. And it's a guy who has created a garden that wraps around his block, like around the corner because of a corner house. And he's got all sorts of beautiful flowering plants that. Or a delight in all seasons. And you kind of have to weave your way through the plants to get down the sidewalk because they're on both sides of the sidewalk, which is already narrow. And there's just so many little things to notice in there. And as a kind of additional delight, she and I once saw a woman cooking in the kitchen through the window. And so did we go up and knock on the door and talk to her? Yes, we did. And we're like, this is delight Allie. It's her husband, anyway. And then I've subsequently met him. But I guess it really is a manifestation of what you talk about, delights leading to more delights and this feeling of connection with people.
- [03:41]
B
Yeah, totally. Totally. That's it, man. I. I used to live on Jessup street in Philadelphia, which was. There was all cherry. Cherry blossoms. So when it. That was one of those alleys you walk through. And not far from Waverly, you walk through it and it's just like. Golly.
- [03:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I feel like I'd remiss. Be remiss if I didn't start a conversation today by asking you, Ross Gay, something that delighted you today. I should also say we have a chat on my sub stack. We have a group Chat going on where people, strangers from around the world drop delights in. It's all delights. I can send you a link. But it's so lovely. So I know that the people in that chat are going to be very upset if I don't ask you if. What's something. What's something that's delighted you today?
- [04:22]
B
Many, many things. I was actually kind of just walking around the garden a little bit and I. Well, I saw ladybugs cavorting on the gooseberry bushes and that was. That was good. And I saw that, like cut ins of grapes. You know, you propagate grapes by just taking a cut and it's sticking in the ground. That's a miracle. That. That delighted me. Some friends early already. That delighted me. You know, many things. You know, it's this time of year, there's a fruit bush called a gumi.
- [04:55]
A
Oh.
- [04:56]
B
And. Yeah. And it's just the most beautiful thing. It's just the most beautiful creature in the world. It's. It like has these kind of very. It shimmers a little bit. These leaves, these sort of petite leaves that shimmer are kind of like gray, green and. But they make these flowers that. Are they. The way they. It's just like. It's too much how good they smell. So anyway. Yeah.
- [05:22]
A
Is it really called a goomy or is that a nickname?
- [05:25]
B
I mean, G O U M I. Yeah.
- [05:29]
A
Okay.
- [05:30]
B
Made it to Autumn Olive, which, you know.
- [05:32]
A
Oh, a silverberry.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:36]
A
I didn't know that they smelled this time of year. My daughter and I go around and she loves, like. I mean, I do too. Collecting the berries in the autumn.
- [05:43]
B
Yes, man. Yeah. So, yeah. Cousins.
- [05:47]
A
I also should point out. Anyone listening? It's like 11:15 here. So Ross has already encountered at least like a dozen delights. One question I would ask you, were you always like this? Were you always noticing delights?
- [06:03]
B
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I feel like. I feel like. I mean, many ways to sort of go. Go into that, to answer that. But I feel like I don't. Yeah. I don't feel like I have. I've been. Yeah. Especially like, tuned in necessarily. I mean, you know, as a kid, I was like a kid. I was sort of like into like. I noticed stuff, I think. But I think that's maybe the way of kids, you know. And I think also probably like a kid emerging from kidness. I've sort of like learned how to suppress that or just, you know, to start kind of, you know, girding A sense of. Of knowing. The imposition of what I know as opposed to, you know. You know, noticing. In a way. Often there's some relationship between noticing and not knowing.
- [06:59]
A
Huh. Tell me more. What do you mean?
- [07:01]
B
Well, you know, like, if you're. If you're like, in a new place, you notice everything. If you're, like, not sure, you pay attention, you know, and, you know, I think that's a common thing, like, as we. You know, like how when you ask little kids if you're like, hey, do something. And they're like, you know, and then you ask, like, you know, you just see it kind of like. And those. When they're like, college kids who remain like that, you know, I was just saying this the other day. It's like those. Those kids need to be protected, you know, because. So vulnerable and they're so, like, you know, still open and confused and, like, wonderful and, like, full of wonder and, like, tender. Anyway, that's a long way of saying. I don't. I don't. I don't know. I don't.
- [07:53]
A
I was wondering if it's a practice that it. You consciously began to cultivate at some point. I mean, it seems from what I've read of your work, that you obviously notice and pay attention. But I was wondering when that became a conscious thing that you felt you should turn into a practice.
- [08:11]
B
Well, it. That was. I mean, I will say that, you know, like, I feel like the. It's possible that the writing of poem. You know, writing poems can be helpful. You know, and I grew up. I mean, as a. For most. For my adult life, I've been writing poems and I've had amazing teachers who have been great noticers. Like, one of my teachers is the writer Thomas Lux, and he writes with such incredible detail about the strangest things. Amazing poet. And. Or another poet, Gerald Stern, just like an incredible noticer. But I. This as a practice, it sort of really did arrive. Like, I was just in the midst of sort of know, like, it's kind of a lovely feeling or lovely. I was having a lovely moment. That s. You know, the word delight, which my friend Joanna reminded me. I never say. And she says so.
- [09:11]
A
Really?
- [09:12]
B
Yes. Shout out to my friend Joanna.
- [09:16]
A
Oh, that's so funny that. Huh?
- [09:18]
B
Yeah. I was like, oh, this is delightful. And so. Yeah, so actually, yeah. So that, you know, like, her voice is in my head. But then. And I. And I said, this is how the book started. You know, I should write a little Delight. I should write a little essay about this delightful feeling. Like I noticed myself feeling delighted, which is a thing. And then I. Then very quickly something arrived that said, do it every day for a year. See what happens if you do that? At which point it became like a practice.
- [09:51]
A
And you listen to that little thing. There's like the little voice. I was like, do that every day for a year. And you're like, I, I will.
- [09:57]
B
I will do that. I will do that. Yeah, let's see. That sounds. That sounds like. That would be interesting.
- [10:02]
A
I'm very interested in practices and rituals in general, which is something I wanted to ask you about. And also how we can use practices and rituals to change our experience of the world, which I think is also what you're getting at. And I was just noticing that you also wrote this amazing book of essays called Inciting Joy. And I have a section that I wrote down. And you're talking about what practices, habits, rituals and understandings, the stuff we do and think and believe, make joy more available to us. What incites joy, which is something you're writing about in the book Inciting Joy. But I'm wondering if you can speak a bit about that, about how. I think you say this as well. We often have practices or rituals that do the opposite when we compulsively check the news or we're constantly doing things on our phones that don't lead to joy and delight and wonder and solidarity and what I think you refer to as entanglement. So I'm wondering if you can just talk a bit about your thoughts about what role rituals and practices can play and then how we can use those to shape our experience of the world.
- [11:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, well, I like from experience. I mean, one of the things, it was kind of nice because one even like when I thought to do this practice, this delight practice. I'm not like a daily writer. I'm not someone who does that. So, yeah, so I. I've tried it and I've not really loved it.
- [11:20]
A
No morning pages for you?
- [11:21]
B
Oh, no. It hasn't been my way. You know, I remember like a very short time where me and a buddy were like, yeah, let's be. Let's be serious writers and get up at 5:30 in the morning. And we'd do that and then we'd meet for coffee and then like just be miserable.
- [11:37]
A
It's always 5:30 in the morning, right? It's always like, get up before dawn.
- [11:41]
B
It's funny because I'm a paper boy for like, literally for like 12 years, you know, and it seems like maybe that would be my Style, but it's not. Um, anyway, I. I knew, or I had a hunch that it might be intimidating or something to do it every day, to write every day, to give myself the test. So one of the things that I did was actually to. To say just, you're going to draft a delight in 30 minutes. So basically, you know, the deal was to, like, set the bar very low for me. I mean, not everyone has 30 minutes to kind of sit down and write a delight, but that's my job. And the reason I did that was, like I said, because was a little bit nervous about whether or not I could do right kind of right every day. But also the thing of, like, well, is something. Is there going to be something to write about that delights me every day? But very quickly, you know, probably because I was tuned up a little bit, like, we pay attention, you know, it. It became the case that if I had. With that kind of radar, I think it felt like the delight radar or whatever you know, had that kind of turned on again, like, okay, this is my job for the year. I'm. I very quickly realized, like, there was many. There were many things and. And actually many things that I was sort of experiencing regularly that I experienced, but that I had not quite articulated as things that delighted me. You know, I realized that I was sort of. In a way, I was sort of, you know, definitely, definitely having these kind of new experiences of delight, like just these encounters or, you know, these, you know, all the ways it would show up, but also re. Encountering things that I had not ever, you know, noticed were delightful to me.
- [13:29]
A
What would be an example?
- [13:31]
B
Well, an example would be something like, even in the one where I talk about, like, the public high five, you know, this story is just like, I'm working, you know, I'm gonna coffee shop, like, working in this little kid. I mean, she might have been a college kid, but, you know, like. But she was like. She could have been a high school kid or like a college kid, but she, like, came up to me and I had these headphones on, and she's kind of like, standing next to me,
- [13:56]
A
like, with the hand, and she was
- [13:59]
B
like, are you working on your paper?
- [14:01]
A
Good job.
- [14:02]
B
High five. She thought I was doing her homework this week.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
You know, and so high five, you know, and I was. You know, I didn't tell her I wasn't doing her work. I was actually revising delight.
- [14:15]
A
I mean, you have a youthful demeanor, but,
- [14:18]
B
yeah, as I've been saying lately, I look about my age, you Know, so I was not. I was not. And. But the thing that I realized in the midst of high fiving this kid who I didn't know was that I always love those kind of, as I say, pleasant, public, physical interactions with strangers. You know, like, that's something, you know, like down there, near where you are, sarcones in. In Philly, that little bakery, this beautiful bakery. And something I had to learn how to do because I, you know, I. I grew up outside of Philly, but I moved to this neighborhood in a way. Like, I sort of, you know, my mother's from Minnesota. She's very Midwestern. And my father, I don't know, I was in. I was in Sarcons. And you gotta, like, you gotta shove to get your bread. And I remember this woman behind the counter, she was an angel. She was like, honey, if you don't shove, you're not gonna get any bread.
- [15:20]
A
So many delights in it. The honey. Condoning shoving as a. I know, I
- [15:25]
B
know, because she just saw me. I was just like, you know, being polite to all these people. You gotta come on. But anyway, so, you know, that's an example. Like, I. I appreciate that. Or, you know, you play ball. I'm a. I love to play basketball. And there's a kind of, like, part of the interaction is a kind of pleasant. Pleasant, you know, to me, public, physical interaction with people who are strangers until, you know, when you play ball with them, they stop being strangers in a way. But anyway, that's an example, you know, or like, another example is, like, I mentioned, like, these bobblehead dolls, you know, that people put on their windows or on their cars. It's like, yeah, those always tickled me, but I never, like, articulated them as tickling me. Yeah, like, it gave me a feeling. Like there was one, you know, that my friend Laurel actually, like, left here for years. It was just like, you know, my friends Chris and Laurel. And I don't know how it got. I don't know why it's here, but I. And I would never take it away. And I'd always feel this really nice feeling at this little thing. I think it was like a flower. And it was just like forever. It was just like, always one.
- [16:29]
A
Everyone I know who's listening. Russ is imitating a bobblehead doll right now, which delightful to me. Is that how you define delight? Because I sometimes, like. How would you define kind of tickles? You, like, brings a sense. I mean, sounds weird.
- [16:43]
B
Tickle is. Is a kind of. That does feel like one of the things And I have been thinking a lot about this. I mean, funny, I was just like, picking up. I was cleaning up a little bit and I was picking up this beautiful book by Bernadette Mayer called Midwinter Day. It's a book she wrote, poem thorough poem. Anyway, there's this little note that I must have written, like last year, and it says, delight is the pleasurable signal of connection. And I think that's sort of. I think that's sort of what it
- [17:17]
A
is, you know, the pleasurable signal of connection. Tell me more. Or.
- [17:24]
B
Or. And I think I further sort of think about it, that the. The pleasurable, pleasurable evidence of life. To be delighting, to notice oneself in delight maybe means to be recognizing oneself as life or to participate. Be participating as life. It feels like so often we. We are encouraged to imagine ourselves as other than life, actually.
- [17:50]
A
What do you mean?
- [17:51]
B
Even in terms of the way we refer to nature, you know, as though it doesn't include us, the critters that we. Yeah, you know, but. But the. You know, for me, it feel, you know, the more I think about this thing and the more the reason I think of it is like. I mean, one of the reasons I think it's like, really important to me is that to notice how much I love that that bird keeps making that sound out there is. And to notice myself noticing it in some way is not only to recognize that that bird sort of, you know, I'm utterly connected to that bird because that bird, in fact, is changing me at this moment, but it's also to notice that the connection of those things is actually related to the connection of all things. So it's like that delight at being moved. Moved is a good word too. Tickled move is a kind of. Is a kind of response or indication at being. Or. Or evidence that we are in fact connected fundamentally. And, And. And that feels really important to me. An important thing to study. To really study.
- [19:27]
A
I really love that because I think that that idea that delight is the pleasurable signal of connection or pleasurable evidence of life really encapsulates or helps explain why there can be so many different forms of delight. Something that's pure beauty or something that's absurd and that makes you laugh or something that's both of those things, or as you write about, even delight and sorrow or sad things, which seems like those should be separate, but they're not separate necessarily.
- [19:56]
B
Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that you were. You saying made me want to remember. There's a book that I Am rereading, like, Re. Re. Re. Reading right now by Elaine Scary, called On Beauty and Being just. And in it she sort of talks about. This is a book that I read a while ago, but then I was rereading it recently because I was trying to like, think more about, like, what. What is the light? And she talks about. She. In the book is sort of a defense of beauty in a way. And she's a professor, and she's sort of saying. Because they're at this. At the moment she's writing it, which is in the late 90s, there needed to be a defense of beauty, you know, and she does all of this beautiful kind of defining of beauty, like what beauty makes us do. And it's. It's sort of a philosophy. It's a philosophical book. But among the things that beauty makes us do, compels us to do. She's across the board, like, we cannot really resist this is to make versions of. Requires us to replicate it. Like the way that you told me about that. That garden, you know, wrapping the block and those people inside, you know, and. And you were. You made a copy of that in your mind, in your body, however you want to say it. And you were kind of waiting to tell me.
- [21:25]
A
I have been waiting for. For years.
- [21:31]
B
Like, I had to ask about what was in the alley, but you wanted to tell me about how beautiful it was for you and your kid to interact with the person who's cooking. And that. That thing that the beautiful requires that we replicate it. She goes on to sort of say that it. It also. Because we can understand that each replication will require a replication, a version. So the beauty sort of versions itself. Forth throughout the world, it proliferates. And that proliferation sort of gives one an understanding of. She called it terrestrial plenitude, or enoughness, the possibility that there could be enough, you know, because one of the places in our lives where we watch. We watch, you know, it's very hard. It's very hard to see, like, the astonishingly beautiful thing of these two ladybugs on the gooseberry and not want to share that in some way, whether like drawing a picture of it or taking a picture of it or like telling someone about it, making a poem about it. It's very hard. And I think it's. I think it's hard for most of
- [22:53]
A
us actually to keep it inside, to not share.
- [22:57]
B
To not share in some way. And even if we keep it inside, if she says, like, as she says, if we make a copy of the thing inside, carrying it and In a way, we're carrying it with the anticipation probably that we're going to share it. So there is this sort of. This thing about delight that is born of sharing and inspires sharing that thing too feels really, really beautiful and important to me.
- [23:25]
A
So I completely agree with you. That's a really interesting way to think about it. And I'm wondering, given that there are so many delights around us, if we pay attention to them, why aren't we. Why. Why do you think that we're instead giving into our other very human tendency to, and as you point out in your own book as well, focus on things that upset us and to share that? You know, I think you write, attending to what we hate in common is too often all the rage and noticing what we love in common and studying that might help us survive. So why do you think that we're not great at noticing and sharing those beautiful things?
- [24:05]
B
That's a long, that's probably a long, long thing. I mean, a very practical thing. It's like, you know, there are all of these sort of impediments to, you know, like, one of the things that one might find is that having, having time is one of the ways that one can kind of notice and articulate and revel in one's delights. So if you work 13 hours a day, it might be harder for you, you know. And I feel like, you know, obviously there's plenty of folks who, who are in that state and are sort of like remarkable at being like. And, and, and, and those to me feel like the teachers, you know. But I think there are, I think they're just like plain things. Like, you know, something that I noticed very powerfully was that, you know, my mother, you know, it's one of those people, my folks, they were just like kind of among the. Kind of working all the time, shittily paid, precarious kind of.
- [25:16]
A
And
- [25:19]
B
I remember my, My mom as being sort of a. Just a very kind of nervous about money nervous, you know, like, kind of. I don't remember her as a delighted person and when we were kids. And now she's, you know, sort of not in that situation.
- [25:44]
A
And,
- [25:46]
B
you know, it's sort of like, you know, I write about this in the book in some ways, like the, My, you know, my father died and he actually, you know, he left her good life insurance. And she's not, she's not worried about money in the, you know, her kind of, you know, the worry that she'll never get rid of. But she, you know, her bills are paid. And she is constantly talking about, oh, my God, the this. Oh, my God did that. Oh, my God, the this. Oh, my God, that. You know, so there does feel to be like a kind of a practical, You know, as I often think, you know, the. Well, you know, it's like it's much harder to be delighted when the means of life are being withheld from you. And so I get it. I get it. And it's also, you know, it also feels vital too, That. I mean, partly what feels like sort of loving about the delight practice is that, you know, because we're not.
- [27:06]
A
We're.
- [27:07]
B
We're. We're often. We're not infrequently devastated if we're at all awake.
- [27:16]
A
Right. It's like a new bumper sticker. If you're not devastated, you're not paying attention.
- [27:21]
B
Right, right, right, right, right.
- [27:22]
A
I always think with that, though, I'm with, you know, the bumper sticker. If you're not outrage, you're not paying attention. I'm like, well, I am paying attention. I'm just not always paying attention to things that outrage me because I'd also like to have some delight, you know,
- [27:34]
B
that's the thing. Yeah. Sometimes it's not the only thing. And it feels like there's a kind, there's a way. And it comes back to this question that Scary raises, which is like. Because we know that. I know very much the experience of. I mean, every day, but like a kind of abiding feeling bad. Feeling real bad. And to have to have someone who's like. Who's able to notice the thing very near you in your proximity, maybe in your life, and just gently be like, oh, that's. That's a delight, you know, so. Which is to say that I think we. There's something about. We help each other when we're able to. To, you know, so sort of gently share, you know, it's. It is really. It's like we're sharing what we love. You know, we're sharing what we love, you know, delight, that kind of connection thing. Another word for connection, you know, is love. And delight is a pleasant evidence of love because also heartbreak is the evidence of love. Sorrow is the evidence of love. Rage is the evidence often of love. Devastation, all those things. The light is a pleasant evidence of love connection. And so to. To be able to sort of
- [29:05]
A
offer
- [29:06]
B
that as well in the way that, like, scary says that it kind of proliferates and encourages that. That feels. Yeah, it just feels like really, really moving to me. I also should say, like, you know, I. I was. When I was writing this first version of this book, I was in. In therapy, and this dude, he was like, you know, he basically was like, you're. You have a hard time trusting people.
- [29:34]
A
Oh.
- [29:36]
B
But he said it more emphatically than that. But that's more or less what he said. And I cracked up because I was like, oh, isn't that interesting? In a way, I'm studying. I'm studying the proof that. That I'm. I'm studying this thing that I hadn't yet articulated as connection, but I'm studying, you know. You know, the project of the book is very much almost. I mean, like, it's almost always sort of succumbing to someone's gentleness. Whether it's not. Whether it's the case of, like, a kid wanting to give a high five or. Or something like that, you know, or like watching someone, like, roller skating down the street or watching other people kind of tend to one another. It feels like that's one of the things, too, that it's. It's. It's the evidence for why we. To me, you know, obviously I was right. You know, I wasn't writing this book because, you know, that's sort of the answer to your first question. Like, I wasn't writing this book because, oh, yeah, I got some million delays in a way. I was sort of writing it probably to make a. To. To practice the making of. Of an experience or. Or something like that.
- [30:57]
A
To actually create more delight by noticing it. You mean? Or. Or what do you mean?
- [31:03]
B
Sort of. To sort of grow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To sort of grow. The more, you know, obviously that. I mean, that's like a. You know, that's a. I think plenty of people, you know, spiritual teachers always talk about that, that what you study
- [31:19]
A
grows,
- [31:21]
B
and I feel like that for sure is something that even just that little thing of like. Yeah. When you're describing something, you notice that's like your thing, you're gonna be. Oh, okay. Oh, I can see it. Oh, there it is too. Oh, there it is too. Oh, there it is too. There it is too. Okay. And it's just like, okay, okay. This is. There's a kind of abundance of this stuff when I'm looking very hard for it.
- [31:45]
A
To me, that's something that was particularly. And is particularly powerful about this concept, is that it's so easy just to focus on the headlines and the news, and you just don't notice that there are all these joys and delights at the same time and that you don't. One doesn't negate the other. You know, it's not. Not paying attention to the world's problems, but also paying attention to the little. To the ladybugs. And it reminds me, you've probably seen this documentary, Mission Joy, about the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
- [32:17]
B
Oh, I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it.
- [32:19]
A
Of all people in the world, this would be based on a book called. It's on my shelf behind me, the Book of Joy. It's called the Book of Joy, and it's basically about the friendship between the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. And they turned it into a documentary because, as you may know, they had a really mischievous, playful, joyful friendship. And there's a part of the. Sorry, my insulin pump is going on in the background. If anyone is hearing and beeps. There's a part of the documentary where I think it's. The Dalai Lama talks about how if you just look at the headlines in the news, you'll think that there's nothing but despair and trauma going on in the world. But there's more than just the headlines. And it's very important to pay attention to the sources of joy as well. For many reasons, I would say, but that it's not irresponsible to pay attention to joy and delight. And, Sonia, I think what you're talking about is so interesting in terms of training ourselves to also notice those things and that when you start to tune into them, you start to notice they are all around us. Um, and when you're talking about kind of who can notice delight? I hear what you're saying, but I've also found, for me, it's like, if I were. I was just thinking about how I was revising my. I have a book called how to Break up with youh Phone, which also seems in line with your philosophy. And I was sitting on the couch behind me for, you know, 12 hours a day in that moment when you're like, why did I become a writer? Cause I'm just, like, staring at the computer. But I'm just thinking the sunbeams coming through the window, that's a delight. You know, I think actually an interesting challenge for anyone listening is to just, wherever you're listening, stop and look around and figure out something that delights you just in your current environment. Because I don't know if you'd agree, Ross, but I feel like there's probably always something, even if it's tiny, and that once you start to name those Things you can start to almost collect them. And then you have this collection of little treasures to look back on to remind you that life is not all the darkness.
- [34:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like. I mean it's in that in its way connects it to a gratitude, you know.
- [34:12]
A
Yeah. Tell me more because I've been thinking a lot about that too. But what's your take on the connection between gratitude and delight?
- [34:19]
B
Well, you know, it's funny like, even, like the, like the, The. The way, you know, I sometimes. I'm sometimes a little bit shy to myself to even. There's something. I feel shy about defining them. It's funny, I gotta figure that out. Like tic. Taxonomizing. But. But all the same, I do all the time. So I'm gonna.
- [34:47]
A
Feelings. You don't have to use technical definitions. I'm just wondering anywhere your mind goes.
- [34:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, but I mean, but gratitude, I mean sort of like you just said, like they just heard your pump going on. Grateful, yes, grateful, you know, etc. Etc. Etc. You know, like, you know, I think, I think to me, like the, you know, there's a version. There's a kind of. There's a version of the gratitude practice that is. It's effectively a kind of like accumulation justification practice. It's like. It's gratitude for my hummer. It's gratitude for my. It's gratitude as opposed to gratitude for this thing that's keeping me alive. Which is. Which is, you know, as opposed to sort of a kind of prayer of need, you know, like gratitude. You know. To me, what I think of is real gratitude. And I think of Robin Wall Kimmerer too. It's like one of the most beautiful sort of articulators of gratitude. And also Lewis Hyde and his book the Gift and many other people too. But the gratitude acknowledge that we are nothing but need. Nothing but need. And among the sorrows and sort of like to be life is also to be nothing but need. You know, Entanglement is to be like. We could just like click off. We could spend the rest of this time if we had like 2000 years saying all the things that we need that without which we would not, you know. And we could start from like the invisible bacteria in our guts that if they changed a little bit, it wouldn't take long. I bet it would take like a couple days, you know, or less and we'd be gone, you know, and we. Something else and on and on and on and on and on, you know, that we have skin, you know, it Is wild.
- [36:54]
A
We have skin, Ross.
- [36:56]
B
It's pulling everything in when it happened. It's holding everything in while it is. While it is, you know, it's like. And that to me feels like the. The gratitude practice which then, you know, again, it's sort of like, oh, let me sort of articulate and be in to always trying to be more acutely aware of. Of. Of my need as a way of being also aware of that it's being cared for, you know, that it's being intended to, you know, that I have water that I can drink. That is not like a given, you know, it's not a given, you know, etc, Etc, whatever. And in a way, sort of like, so, you know, like delight feels to me. There's something. Obviously they're over over. There's an overlap to that, you know, but in a way, gratitude feels more grave. Joy, like joy. I think of gratitude and joy being very sort of tied up together. And delight feels like it's absolutely connected to all of it. It's connected to the grave as well. Just because we're people, we're creatures, we're changing, but also because it. There is this kind of the way it sort of delight sort of flickers forth or something. Or like.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah, it's kind of like a little. The word that comes to my mind is delight has this celebration kind of inherent in it. And gratitude does too. But like you're saying it doesn't feel as kind of. I mean, I just always make this gesture of kind of going forth, like there's something about. And I'm always like, delight. It's delight. It's delight, you know, or it's just the lightness or this kind of feeling of delight. But I think there is an element of. Of celebration. And like, you're saying it is gratitude, but it does have a slightly different flavor to it.
- [38:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. That's right.
- [38:53]
A
How often do you cry from this. You were just talking about my pump and just. I'm thinking about all the little examples you gave and I don't know if you saw a second or two ago, Mike, are totally watering because there's this beauty to it, right? Like, I think a lot of times people mistakenly think delight or fun or whatever is frivolous, but there's this power to it. Wonder. Do you cry all the time?
- [39:12]
B
I. Hopefully I will one day. I cry more than I used to. God, I cried at that movie, Cinema Paradiso, when I was watching with my mom recently. I was just like, holy cow. It was moving to me. Right. Moving to being with my mom and like. I don't know, just like. God. And she was. She was not crying, but she came out of me like. You know, Rossi, I think that's. That's, like, one of the best movies I've ever seen. But I do want to say, just to. Just to connect back to what you were saying. It's utterly moving. It's utterly moving. You know, it's like that. That. That thing of, like, what I think of, you know, the joy. When I think about joy as being like kind of the. What I think of the practice of our entanglement, but I also think of it as being like how we tend to one another through our sorrows. And. And if you believe, like I do, that everyone's heartbroken, like, you don't get out of it. And that. That it might be attempting to sort of. I'm at. Stay with.
- [40:25]
A
That
- [40:28]
B
might be a source of, like a sort of reaching towards source, you know, Source of. Or the. The engine by which we reach toward one another. That feels very important. And the other thing that I wanted to say is that it feels important that the study and articulation of what we love grows what we love, you know, and there is. There is the steady articulation and sharing of what we love, you know, and this sort of come. Comes back to that Elaine. Scary, the way she thinks so beautifully about it on beauty and being just for those of you. And there's a line in a poem by the poet Cornelius Eady that says, I'm a. I'm a brick in a house that's being built around your house. And in a way, it feels like the. The. The study of what we love. Is an attempt to grow. Is an attempt to sort of make that be, you know, the house, whatever, or the thing that we live in that it might become bigger than. Than the brutality, you know, Never without the sorrow. Because we're sorrow. We're. We're full of sorrow. I mean, it's just like that's what we are. Who we love is changing. Everything is changing. But that. That the growth of what we love might, in fact, overtake. I want to end with that. That what is devastating might in fact be. Changed. Ended over. Overtaken by what we love. You know, the reason that there's a reason to study what we love so we can remember, you know, why.
- [42:36]
A
And as you were saying, the sharing of it.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah. Which we can't help but do. We can't help but do. I was just doing a Reading the other night. And I somehow wanted. Someone asked me a question. I was like, talking about pens and like, I'm Len.
- [42:50]
A
I know you love Le Pen. Yes, I was. I folded down that page in the book of delights about you writing in hand by hand, which I also wanted to talk about with a lip pen, but. Go on.
- [43:03]
B
Yeah, but someone came up after the reading, was like. Gave me her favorite pen. She was like, this is. I love this pen. You're gonna love this pen.
- [43:12]
A
You're like, I love you.
- [43:13]
B
Exactly. I was like, oh, my God, I will never forget you.
- [43:16]
A
Yes. I mean, so is this the answer? Is this the answer to everything? Ross? Like, if we just. It's so simple. If we focused on what we love and shared that, well, I will solve everything.
- [43:32]
B
My. My notion of scale is very small these days. But I will say that that one of the things that Elaine Scarry talks about school is so vital is because it is one of the places where as she talks about. We learn what. We learn the beautiful. We learn what is beautiful. Which is to say that we kind of. It might be the case. I would say the best point. I was. I was visiting the school the other day and like, it was like, you know, we were walking around and this dude teacher as. As we were walking as high school kids, actually, and they were, you know, like high school kids, whatever. And he. He stopped. Everyone's like, wait, wait, look. And it was pointing to a house. Swallow. And it was the first of the year, he said. And he was so quiet, so still for like a while. And he just kind of looked at it, you know, and I kind of noticed the kids were really looking at it. And then he kind of said a few other things that they're come, they've come back, they're back. I guess they leave and come back. And he said a few other things. And then he asked them to just be quiet and listen to all the birds that they could hear. And I was like, oh, that's school. That's. He just. He just taught. Whether or not they knew it, he taught them either to love a thing or they taught. He taught them that there's a thing to love.
- [45:02]
A
Yes.
- [45:04]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:05]
A
Well, thank you so much. This truly has been a delight. Not just saying that. Yeah. And for anyone listening, I really encourage you to read Ross's books and to start your own delight practice in whatever way feels delightful to you. And I was just wondering, Ross, if there's any last thing you want to share or anywhere in particular you'd like people to go to check out stuff. I know you were toying around with the idea of a substack, but where can we learn more about you and then any. Any final thoughts?
- [45:34]
B
Yeah, I have a website says kind
- [45:39]
A
of with sugar disappointment. It's a lovely website. His bio includes the line, I meant to read this before. Ross Gay is interested in Joy. Ross Gay wants to understand Joy. Ross Gay is curious about Joy. Ross Gay studies Joy. Something like that. It's a lovely website, but. Yes.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah. But, yeah. You know, like. Like I said, look at that, Elaine. Scary book. There's a million to look at. But. And yeah. I'm just really grateful. I'm grateful to get to talk to you and I. I hope we bump into each other in Philly. Maybe at the Fig Tree one day.
- [46:13]
A
That. Please. Yes.
- [46:15]
B
Let's do it. And September, when they're coming off.
- [46:18]
A
All right. That. That is a perfect place to both end and begin. So thank you so much, Ross.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
And I hope you have a delightful rest of your day.
- [46:27]
B
Thank you. You too.
- [46:29]
A
Bye.
- [46:29]
B
Bye.