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- [00:00]
A
Record on this computer. All right. Okay. Does that recording on your end, Charles, what's that? Did that give you the recording thing?
- [00:09]
B
Let's see. Yes.
- [00:11]
A
Okay. I. I find myself doing that at the beginning of every single conversation I have with anyone is the. The moment of me asking if it's actually successfully recording. Anyway. Okay. Hello, everyone. I'm Katherine Price. I'm the author of how to break up with your phone and the power of fun and the how to feel alive substack. And welcome to the how to feel alive informal podcast. I am really excited because today I am here with Charles Duhigg, who is a Pulitzer Prize winning author and writer. He has written books including the power of Habit, which was a huge inspiration for me when writing how to break up with your phone. So just personal thank you to you, Charles, for this Stronger, better, faster. I believe. Did I say. And then his most recent book, super communicators, how to unlock the secret language of connection, which is a very intriguing title and I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. So thank you for making the time.
- [01:00]
B
Thank you. I really appreciate it. This is a lot of fun.
- [01:02]
A
Yes. And I should also mention, you write the science of better substack newsletter, which I will link to in this because. Yeah. How would you describe that?
- [01:11]
B
It's supposed to be a very brief. So people send me questions about how to. How to do something like how do I talk to my kids, how do I stop procrastinating. And then I go to the scientific literature and I try and send something back that's very, very brief. Or publish something that has, like, three tips on how. What science tells us about how to overcome that issue.
- [01:30]
A
I love when writers say like, and I write it and I try not to have too many words so that you don't have to read too much of what I wrote.
- [01:36]
B
Well, I think for substack in particular, what I've noticed here, I'm just going to clean my camera really quickly. Sorry. What I've noticed about substack is that people. People like short things, right? Like, I get some substacks that are so long and, and, and if they're great, I love them. If they're writers that I know. But it also, I also find that I put them in a folder to read later and then I often don't
- [01:57]
A
read them, so I just mark them as unread. And then I leave it in a perpetual thread in my email and then get stressed out about it when I try to fall asleep. So it's A good system. I, I'll write you a question about how to deal with that. So I wanted to jump right in. My first question for you actually was what? This feels very meta to me. Like, I found this to be very stressful to prepare for because we're having a conversation about how to communicate and I was wondering, has that been affecting you as well? Because I'm like becoming very self conscious about how I'm phrasing questions or how to even structure a conversation. No, I thought I knew how to do.
- [02:27]
B
And you shouldn't be self conscious at all. I mean, one of the things that we know about good conversations is that they, they're messy, right? They, if you were to read a transcript of a great conversation, you're like, can these people finish a thought? Like, why do they keep interrupting each other? So what matters much? What the, the, the eloquence of what you say matters much, much less than making an honest connection with the other person, right? Asking questions, proving that you're listening, showing that you want to make a connection. And if you do that, then, then you're communicating. If you, if you just say something beautiful and it's two people trading monologues, that's not communication.
- [03:05]
A
Well, it's so true. Whenever I use the, the transcription feature on anything and you think, oh, that was a good conversation. Then you read it and you're like, oh my God, do I even know how to talk?
- [03:15]
B
Yes, yes, it happens. And, and actually that's, that's the goal of conversation. The goal of conversation is to be so present in the discussion, so kind of in the moment and enjoying it that you're not thinking about how this is going to look on a transcript, right? You're not, you're not thinking about whether you said this, right? You're thinking about, am I communicating with the. In a way that the other person can understand me.
- [03:35]
A
Yes, that makes sense. And I also appreciate how you went in your book. You talked about how it can be helpful when you go into a conversation to kind of think about what you want to talk about ahead of time. I mean, obviously it depends on the type of conversation, but try to figure out what might make it satisfying to you. And I was thinking about that, and so I thought I'd actually try your own suggestion. So what came to my mind is my primary goal is just have a fun and interesting conversation with you because I've been a fan for a long time and I'm psyched to get to talk to you. But I also realized, like, what really drew me to Super Communicators is my hatred of awkward moments at gatherings. And so I'm very curious about diving into ways that we can get better at that or enjoy interactions. But I did also want to start by asking you with the idea in mind of having a fun, interesting conversation. What do you think would make this fun and interesting for you?
- [04:24]
B
I mean, honestly, just having a conversation because the like, like learning what. I mean, the fact that you just mentioned this issue, which I think is a pretty human issue. Right. Everyone kind of. And there's a lot of science to tell us how to fix it, that's what makes us fun. I find that when it's less fun, it's because someone has a list of questions and they're just asking me the questions. No matter what I say, they just read the next question on the list and it's kind of like it's not really a conversation. That's, that's, that's an interview. Right. And a conversation is always more fun than an interview. But to your, to the question, can I, can I offer some thoughts on the what to do? Like those social.
- [04:58]
A
Oh, yeah, let's, let's dive in. Let's just straight go for it. So a little bit of background. I, I think I'm inherently. Well, I was very, very shy when I was a kid. I really hated. I just didn't talk to anybody. So it's somewhat weird that I became a journalist and now I really do try to connect with people. But I also, and also I am a, I've always been a freelancer, so I don't have any professional community. I've never had a bot. I kind of feel isolated a lot is what I'm trying to get across. And so I'm desperate for real human connection and I'm desperate for that feeling of clicking with people. And that's actually something I also wanted to ask you about is, is what happens when we click with someone. But I also keep finding myself in these situations where as I'm sure many other people do too. You're, you're standing around at some, let's talk about nightmare situation child's birthday party with other parents that you don't really know. And so actually I'd love to. Yes, I want to hear your suggestions and I would, I would like to, to see if you're up for like, if we can role play how that would traditionally go and then what we can do to make it better.
- [05:56]
B
The worst part with those child birthdays is it's too early in the morning to have a drink. So it's like, oh, God, it's ten o' clock in the morning. Like, I'm exhausted and I have to make conversation with someone who. The only thing we have in common is that both of our children, like, their noses are leaking snot right now. Yeah, it's a hard. It's a very hard situation to be in. So I'll tell you. So one of the things that we know that super communicators do, consistent super communicators, because we're all super communicators at some point or another. But. But people who can do this kind of consistently, who can connect with almost anyone, one thing that they do is they tend to ask more questions, like 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And some of those questions are special kinds of questions, are known as deep questions. So it's asking someone about their values or their beliefs or their experiences. And that can sound really intimidating, but it's actually very easy once you start looking for the opportunity. It's like, okay, if you bump into someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, where do you practice medicine? Saying, oh, what made you decide to become a doctor? Right. What do you love practicing medicine? Like, what's it like? Questions that invite the other person to say something real and meaningful and share something. And so at those parties, what I find I do and what I think is a pretty good strategy is I sort of play this game where my goal is to get to a deep question as fast as possible. You know, like, you know, oftentimes the, the easiest first question to ask is, you know, how do you know the host? Or, or like, you know, why, why, why did you decide to send your kid to the same school that my kid is going to and say something anodyne and kind of boring? And then usually at that point, I try and ask about their values or their beliefs or their experiences in some way. That's not weird. Right?
- [07:36]
A
Wait. Okay, so let's do this. Okay. I really am bad at play acting. That's something that makes me feel absolutely horrible. But let's just pretend like, hi, I'm Katherine.
- [07:44]
B
Hey, Catherine. What? So why are you here today? How do you know the host?
- [07:50]
A
I. Our kids go to the same school. Yeah. So. Yeah.
- [07:53]
B
Oh, what do you think about that school? Is that I've been thinking about, like, we have a kid we're trying to figure out, like, what do you think? What do you think makes for a good school? And is this a good school?
- [08:03]
A
Well, the Reason that we were drawn to it initially is because we were looking for a school that aligned with our values. I'm not just saying this because the kind of conversation truly. No, but it truly is because we were trying to find a non traditional approach to education that had a more child centric, play based, project focused approach to learning.
- [08:23]
B
And did you feel like when you were growing up. I totally understand that because we have one kid who's, who's does really well in traditional educational settings and another kid who, who non traditional settings is a little bit better for him.
- [08:37]
A
Hmm.
- [08:38]
B
When you were growing up, did, did the school you go to, was it, was it pretty standard? Like what, what's, what's the thing that kind of made you decide that you wanted a different kind of school for your kid?
- [08:48]
A
Well, I did go to a relatively traditional school. I grew up in New York, but my mother was always interested in progressive education and she actually wanted me to go to bank street, which was a more progressive school in Manhattan. And I did not get into Bank Street. That was the one I didn't get into. So I went to a more traditional school. But that's always been drilled into me that this kind of project based learning, not kind of 19th century blackboard, like that's not the way that people learn. I took and taught Latin for a while and they, you know, as you probably know, like the root of education is to draw out or to lead stuff out, not to just put stuff into people. Yeah. What makes your one kid less suited for.
- [09:23]
B
So let me, let me just point.
- [09:25]
A
Yeah, no, I'm like, I'm genuinely enjoying our conversation.
- [09:27]
B
Right. It's a good conversation. Right. And the reason. And so here's what happened in that conversation.
- [09:31]
A
Yeah, tell me. Because it went quickly.
- [09:33]
B
There was a very anodyne question. Right. And then I basically just asked a question that like, which at its, at its core was like, what do you make of this? Like it's like a question, but it's ambiguous enough that pretty much you can answer however it appeals to you. And, and then a couple of things happen. Number one, when you shared something about yourself. I shared something about myself.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah.
- [09:57]
B
It creates a sense of, that's called reciprocal vulnerability or reciprocal authenticity. And it creates a sense of trust and a sense of liking that, that, and, and it's not manipulative. You can't fake this. But, but when you say something real, if I say something real alongside it, it makes you think I'm in this conversation alongside you. I asked you a deep question. We both kind of what it's known as looping for understanding. We both prove to each other that we're listening by asking follow up questions, by being very specific to what the person had asked about. And, and none of that felt like I had no point was I like, you know, when's, when's the last time that like you cried on your partner's shoulder? Right. Like it doesn't feel like, Although that's,
- [10:36]
A
that's not a bad question as you write about.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, but, but I think that the reason why that works is because, is because what I'm really doing is I'm transmitting to you. If you say something real and meaningful, I'm willing to get real and meaningful as well. Paying attention. And I know that you're paying attention because of the follow up questions you ask. And most importantly, we're showing each other that we want to connect. Showing each other that we want to make this connection. And that's the first and most important step to actually making a connection with someone.
- [11:08]
A
How do you do that? Besides the question part, which I want to get into more, but what are some other ways we can signal that we want to connect?
- [11:15]
B
I mean, we do it all the time, almost unconsciously. So, so laughter is a great example of this. And there's a story in the, in the book about how NASA uses laughter to figure which astronauts, which astronaut candidates to hire. But you know, 80% of the time when we laugh, it is not in response to anything funny. Like there's been no formal attempt at humor and laugh just now. Right. The reason we laugh is because we're showing the other person that we want to connect with them. And when they laugh back, which is the most normal reaction, they're showing us that they want to laugh, that they want to connect in return. When somebody says something, when they say something that, you know, sort of hints at some emotion, when they say something like, oh, it was a tough weekend. I had a bunch of stuff going on. You know, super communicators, they won't, they won't mandate, but they'll invite and they'll say something like, oh, that's, that's too bad. It's, yeah, it's, it's. I had a kind of tough weekend going on. Like, is everything okay? It's an invitation, right? Because it's saying to the other person, I hear that you're saying something emotional. I hear that you want to have an, that you're open to an emotional conversation. I'm not going to mandate it. I'm not going to force you into that. But I'm going to make an invitation. Is, is everything okay? Because it's very easy for someone to say like, yeah, yeah, it's all working out. Or for someone to say, actually, you know, my dad is sick and he's older and we're really worried about that.
- [12:35]
A
So good.
- [12:37]
B
Matching each other. The. What's known as the matching principle within psychology is really, really important to how we communicate.
- [12:44]
A
What would be an example of how that conversation, how you could go past that opportunity and then not actually connect with that person? Because one thing I wanted to ask you about is what do we get wrong? So if I'm like, oh, yeah, it was a bit tough, like, what would be an example of you not picking up on that cue?
- [13:00]
B
So, so this happens all the time, right? That like, you know, somebody says, you know, you're waiting for a meeting to start and someone says, how was the weekend? And someone else says, oh, it's great, I went to my kids graduation. And they're like, and they say, oh, congratulations, that's great. Okay, now first on the agenda is, right, Instead of saying, oh, congratulations, like, what does it feel like to watch your kid. Watch your kid walk across the stage? Was that awesome? Right? That's when we're leaning in versus not, versus basically not accepting or issuing an invitation. So when we.
- [13:33]
A
That's interesting too, because you didn't say like, how was it? Right. And then that might invite them to just say, oh, it was great. But yeah, the feeling.
- [13:41]
B
Yeah, how did it feel? And that seems like a natural question, right? It's not like I'm asking you to bear your soul. And if I say, how did it feel to watch watch your kid walk across the stage? You could say, I felt awesome. Thanks so much. Okay, let's get down to the agenda, right? It's. And, and this can sound a little like, when we, when we talk about it in the sort of form formal way, it can sound very overwhelming. But the truth of the matter is our brains have evolved to be really good at communication. And so as a result, when we're exposed to an idea like this, trying to ask deep questions, and we practice it just a handful of times, our brain makes it into a habit very, very quickly. Unusually quickly, actually. And so as a result, even though this can sound like something that might feel a little bit intimidating once you start practicing it, once you say, like, I'm going to ask one person a day a deep question in like a week, you're going to find that you're doing it automatically to everyone you bump into it, it's going to feel totally natural.
- [14:37]
A
Can you give a couple more examples of like a traditional question versus a deep question?
- [14:41]
B
Yeah. And the way to think about this is don't ask someone about the facts of their life. Ask them how they feel about their life. So instead of saying, you know, you could say like, where'd you go to high school? Oh, I went to Valley High. That's fine. A better question is, you know, what, what was high school like for you? Like, did you, did you have, did you have a good time in high school? Right. Or instead of, you can. And you can start with an anodyne question. You can say like, oh, where do you live? Oh, I live in Bernal Heights. Oh, what do you like about Bernal Heights? What's it like up there? Like, is that, what's the thing that drew you to moving up there? Right. Instead of asking about the facts, I could very well say like, oh, where'd you live before Bernal Heights? Or what sports did you play in high school? But if I, and those are fact based questions. But if I ask how someone feels about their life, what did you like about that? Why did you do that? Then I'm inviting them to say something deeper. And this is particularly effective with kids, right. Particularly teenagers. Because as parents our instinct is that our kids come home. And how is school today?
- [15:41]
A
Good.
- [15:41]
B
Did you learn anything? No. Who did you have lunch with? James. Right. Like it's like all these. But then if you say like, oh, you know, you've mentioned James a couple of times. I'm just wondering, like, what do you admire about him? Like, like what do you think is cool about James?
- [15:53]
A
Right.
- [15:54]
B
Oh, James is, he's courageous. Right. You sort of get, eventually they'll say something like, and then, oh, they're, he's courageous. That's it. What does that mean? Like, what's, how is he courageous? Well, he rode his bike off the roof onto the street.
- [16:07]
A
Right.
- [16:07]
B
It's an interesting way of thinking about courage. What about other things? Like, do you think that's the only way to be courageous? It eventually comes out that, like to girls, which in the seventh grade is like a superpower. Right?
- [16:21]
A
Right.
- [16:23]
B
So when we talk to other people and we ask them questions about how they feel about life, how they analyze life, why stuff is important to them, that's when we're providing an opportunity for them to say something real.
- [16:33]
A
So. And how did you, I mean, when we just did that pretend conversation, which gave me a mild anxiety attack when it first started, but then it quickly got better. It's like, how? Because I think it would be. And correct me if you disagree, but if I just came up to you and immediately started with the feel, you know, or the values and the beliefs question, it might be a little weird if I was like, hey, Charles, nice to meet you. How did you feel about high school? So do you normally do kind of
- [16:54]
B
like a. Yeah, there's been studies done on this. The only person who it feels weird to is you. So, so one of the things. So I give these talks and in the talk, one of the things you have to do is we conduct an experiment and I ask people to turn to the person next to them, hopefully a stranger, and ask and answer this one question, which is, when is the last time you cried in front of another person? People like, do you think this is going to be fun? And everyone's like, no, this sounds like the worst idea ever. Right? Then we experiment later. And people love it. They won't shut up, they won't stop talking. And so, and this experiment has been done thousands of times. And one of the things that the, this guy, Nick Epley at the University of Chicago asked people to do is to say, look, you did this in a classroom, now go do it in the real world. And you can tell people when you sit down next to them and introduce yourself, you can say, hey, I was at this weird lecture and this guy suggested I do this thing. Can I try it on you? What's interesting is you're saying that for yourself.
- [17:52]
A
Yeah.
- [17:53]
B
You're not. The other person doesn't care. You were at a weird lecture. It's not like they're going to think more better of you or worse of you. Because you, you preface this by some like, dumb explanation that you're at a lecture. They don't know who Nick Apoli is.
- [18:04]
A
Huh.
- [18:05]
B
And so I. And it's okay to listen to ourselves and to sit down and say. And say, I'm Charles Duhigg. What's your name? Oh, yeah, it's fun. Wait, like, where do you live? Oh, you live in Bernal Heights. I'm just wondering, like, what was it like? Like, what made you decide to move there? What's Bernal Heights like?
- [18:21]
A
Yeah, it seems like, what was that like? Or oh, how does, how did that, what did you feel about that? Like, those are some easy ways to turn. If you do start with a traditional fact based question, how to pivot quickly to like getting into that next level. Because I think that's where so Often it gets stalled, is like, oh, oh, your kid's in third grade. And then I'm like, dear God, get me out of here. I never want to speak to another person again. I want to crawl into a hole.
- [18:42]
B
And all you have to do, the underlying. Every deep question is one thing, which is like, what do you make of this? Like, oh, your kids in third grade, you know, my kids in second grade. What's third grade? Like? Like, what do I have to look forward to? Right? Like. Like, what I'm really asking is, like, how do you make sense of this? How do you make sense of the world? That's ultimately what humans are, right? Or we're these machines for making sense of the world. And when we provide an opportunity for people to share with us how they make sense of the world, it's inevitably interesting.
- [19:18]
A
Well, I mean, as you point out, that's like, the most fulfilling thing that we have, that we seek that's biologically necessary is this feeling of connection with other human beings. And. But it can feel so elusive and so hard and then so frustrating when you know you're with somebody, but you're not with them in a true, meaningful sense.
- [19:34]
B
Absolutely. Now, I'll mention one other thing about the small talk, which is oftentimes when people are. When they get anxious about small talk, it's not only that they don't know how to start the conversation and that they don't know how to end the conversation. And so I'm gonna. So there's this, like, one, like, hack or trick that I, like, I've relied on for many, many years, which is when you want to end a conversation. And Dan Gilbert at Harvard has done some research on this. People get really anxious about it when you want to end a conversation. The issue isn't that everyone wants to end a conversation. Nobody wants to talk forever. It's that you had to do it gracefully. And so one of the things that you can do is you can say, look, I have to go freshen up my drink, or, I want to let you play host. I don't want to take up all of your time. But before I let you go, let me ask you just one more question, because what I'm doing there is. I'm saying, look, I want to acknowledge that both of us. That this conversation needs to end, right? That we both. Other people, we want to talk to. But rather than making it abrupt and rather than making it awkward, I find you so interesting, I can't help but myself but ask one more question, and the other person knows exactly what you're doing. And they're going to spend 15 or 20 seconds answering your question and then be like, oh, it's so nice to meet you. Thank you so much. Right. Because what we're. Ultimately, what we're doing in many conversations is we're asking permission, right? Asking permission to end this conversation. We're asking permission to get deep with each other. We're asking permission to connect. We're asking permission to acknowledge that we're listening to each other. And once we see a conversation as a series of asking permissions, it becomes much easier to navigate all of these different challenges.
- [21:13]
A
Well, that makes a lot of sense. And I know that you need to go fresh in your drink in a second, Charles, but before you go, I
- [21:21]
B
gotta catch a plane, actually.
- [21:23]
A
Oh, catch a plane. You know, whatever. Where can people. Where do you want people to go to learn more about your work besides checking out and buying Super Communicators? Power of Habit. Better, stronger, faster. All your stuff. And yeah, so.
- [21:35]
B
So a. So the books are available in anywhere you buy books. And if you support your local bookstore, all the better because. Because democracy needs bookstores. But then, in addition, if they want to find me, I'm just. I. I'm Charles Duhigg dot com. Like, if you just literally Google my name or the Power of Habit or Super Communicators, my website will come up and all my contact information is on there. And I'd love to hear from folks.
- [21:56]
A
I noticed that he literally put his email address in his book. That was a question I had for you. But thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today. Truly a delight. And I think is hopefully going to help me in birthday parties, which is.
- [22:08]
B
Oh, by the way. And you're a great conversationalist.
- [22:11]
A
Oh, go on. You're just. You just do that. I learned it from watching you. But seriously, thank you so much. And yeah, good luck with the flight, and I hope that we talk soon.
- [22:23]
B
Thank you.
- [22:24]
A
Bye.