← How to Sell Your Stuff on Etsy
How to Sell Your Stuff on Etsy
Ep 200 | Legal Tips to Keep Your Etsy Business Out of Trouble –with Attorney Paige Hulse
01:03:07
If “legal talk” (and literally the title of this episode) makes you nervous or feels dry—this is a MUST LISTEN. Attorney Paige Hulse is back with her easy-to-understand approach to law for entrepreneurs, sharing tips to keep your Etsy...
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, my name is Lizzie Smiley and I absolutely love helping people connect with their calling and all the tools they need to kick roadblocks and excuses right out the door so they can cultivate the life they dream about. If you want to launch, grow, pivot or scale your Etsy Shop, or you've always wanted to develop the mindset and skills to run your own business, then I'm your girl. I've had that entrepreneurial spirit going strong since my very first lemonade stand. And now I'm a work at home mama with multiple online companies and a full time Etsy shop, all while being present with my kids for the everyday chaos and most important milestones. On this podcast, we'll talk about all things business, mindset, Etsy creativity, dazzling our customers, and so much more. There's plenty of room at this table for you, so scooch on in and let's go. I'm holding nothing back. Welcome to how to sell your stuff on Etsy. I'm so glad you're here.
- [00:59]
B
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited for today's conversation and no matter where you are in your Etsy journey, there are going to be gold nuggets that attorney Paige Hulse is going to drop along the way to help you make sure you stay compliant and protected in your Etsy shop. We just have the best chat. I love how she breaks things down so simply. If any of you, especially you newbies, if you're feeling the pinch of having a bunch of different subscriptions to keep your Etsy shop going, it's just feeling like a lot to have like the Canva Pro, to have the ever be to have all like the AI tools, all of the different things. I want to let you know about Etsy Radar from Profit Tree. Okay, this is really exciting. If you haven't heard about this yet, Profitry, which I'll tell you about in a second, is an incredible tool that integrates into your Etsy Shop that helps you like know all of your Shark Tank numbers. You know how much you're making taken away what your expenses are. But they just released a product research tool that will help you at a glance see what's happening and like see what listings of competitors and how much they're making each month when they list it, like how old it is, how what the demand is for it. There's so much data that it gives you. If you've ever heard me say make database decisions, this is how you do it. This tool. What's amazing is that it's only a one time fee of 67. So if you're just feeling super stretched by all of the subscriptions, Profit Tree is going to let you make those database decisions. It's going to help you know your, your shark tank numbers. It's going to help you run your shop at a much better profit. If you want to use Etsy ads effectively and understand what your return on ad spend is, it's going to help you with that. And if you don't know what that means or that feels overwhelming, I really think like Etsy ads are a really great tool. They help me scale my business from $6,000 a month to $12,000 a month. Like literally by turning on ads. I think that they're great but you need to use them wisely. If you're brand new and you're not making sales yet, I don't recommend turning them on. I think ads are best used on listings that are already selling that have proof of market, like proof of concept and then you turn Etsy on to add gasoline. Etsy ads on to pour gasoline on the fire. So I think Profit Tree is a really great tool to pay for only once and have access to all of that. First things first, if you want to learn about Etsy ads, they have a free Etsy ads masterclass. It's incredible. It's going to show you, it's going to teach you so much to help you feel more equipped to make those decisions. That'll be linked below. And if you want to see Etsy Radar, I did a YouTube tutorial and that'll be linked below. Or you can just jump in for just $67 one time fee. That's it. And have access to all of this for life. It's really, really great. So I am really excited about it because I get emails from you guys a lot. Being like Lizzie, I this is just a lot for a startup. I'm not making any money yet. I can't keep paying for all these subscriptions. So I really hope that that helps. Now today, if you're a beginner is going to be so great because we're going to help you with the legal part of your Etsy shop setup. We're going to give you some tips. I have an actual intellectual property attorney here to talk through. You know like the best way to structure your business. Even if you've already started it, you can still make a change. That's what I did. I didn't initially start the right way and then I was able to f and then like common Mistakes that get people in legal trouble. How to avoid Intellectual property violations what about AI and like legality? And Paige Holtz is breaking it all down today. So she's been on the podcast many times before. I have a whole playlist that'll be linked in the show notes of all of her episodes. It's great to go through that. Not to mention she provides like there's clauses that are recommended to have in your Etsy shop to protect you. Since you can't have your own terms and conditions, you can have like clauses and she has recommended for those as well. So check that out. Paige Hulse received her Juris Doctor from the University of Tulsa and is the owner and lead attorney of Paige Hulse Law PLLC. She's also the founder of the Creative Law Shop LLC, 123, the Special Forces Support Fund and Fairway Stables. As a dedicated serial entrepreneur, Paige specializes in delivering legal strategies that empower smart, growth minded business owners to build enduring companies. After beginning her career as an energy litigator while simultaneously growing her own businesses, she launched her law firm in 2017. Serving clients globally with Intellectual Property Council, Paige also created the Creative Law Foundry, the first AI powered contract generator tailored specifically for creative entrepreneurs. With over a decade of experience in intellectual property and business law, Paige is a trusted advisor and sought after speaker in the creative industry. Yes, she is. When she is not advising clients or negotiating deals, she can be found at Fairway Stables, spending her time with her husband riding horses and further expanding her businesses. Yes, she's a serial entrepreneur, so relatable. Connect with paige@paigeholst.com or on Instagram @paige hulse, aigelaw and reativelawshop. And of course I'll have all of those links waiting for you below. So without further ado, please help me welcome Paige to the podcast. Paige, I'm so excited you're back. Welcome to the podcast.
- [05:52]
C
Thank you so much Lizzie. I'm really, really excited to be here.
- [05:56]
B
We're all chuckling because Paige and I are buddies and we're just telling funny stories. Before we got on and we struggled to be professional. But we're here for you and now we're sitting with you. We're going to pull our professionalism out. But you guys. So today I really want to chat with Paige about some of the basics. There's a lot of new people around here, a lot of people I'm noticing kind of making some of the mistakes that we see beginners do and I'm like, you know what we need we need a Page hall special to keep you guys out of trouble. So. So Paige, let's just like, let's really speak to the beginner. But I know we'll also have things like if people are listening and they aren't necessarily beginners, there's always interesting tidbits that come out. So I really encourage everyone to stay and listen, even if you're like, well, I'm not a beginner and I know the basics. You always want to listen to when Paige talks because I come away with more knowledge. Thank you. So of course you're. You're the goat. Let's start with like actually, so when people are launching their Etsy shops and they're looking into like, okay, Etsy's asking, are you a sole proprietor? Are you an llc? Are you a C corp? What are, how are you structuring your business? I love. Yeah, nitty gritty from you. What, what do you recommend is the best way to start?
- [07:02]
C
Perfect. And actually before I even get started on this and I usually forget this, especially when I'm talking to a friend. So I'm going to stay legal myself right now, but just I have to be really boring and start with my disclaimer. So everything I'm talking about today is for general educational purposes. And if somebody has a specific legal question after this, I would recommend reaching out to. We'll provide you with my links and everything or reach out to an attorney in your state or in your jurisdiction. And that's a quick note before I actually directly respond to your question. Lizzie, going back to what you were talking about a second ago, just with. Even if you're not a beginner in one of my businesses in the Creative Law Shop, we've really, we've really narrowed down. I watch the same. It's usually 18 months to a three month cycle that every business owner goes through no matter, no matter what. And so even at. And I kind of think of it as a wheel almost, I want it literally the exact same, the exact same steps because you might hit a step, a point in business where you're actually spinning off and creating a second business or wondering when you should and those types of questions. So that's why I think of it as a wheel. So to anybody listening today, I would. Lawyers can't make promises easily, but I would nearly promise that there will, there will hopefully be a takeaway for you with that. Actually getting back to your question. When, when you're creating your Etsy business and they're asking you what type of who are you what are you Basically, when you are operating, anytime you are selling a dollar, offering anything for sale, you are what the law refers to as the sole proprietor. Whether you realize it or not, that's just our little we, we always have to add some legalese into, into the everyday. And as a sole proprietor, you do have certain. There are certain things that the government will require that you comply with, like when it comes to taxes, etc, if you are making any type of money, again, as a sole proprietor, if you again selling just a dollar's worth of goods. So for that reason I recommend pretty liberally that people form llc. And when I say pretty liberally, I mean once you've hit a point where you're making if you know that you're going to be making money like $50 this week, even if you know that you're going to be making this is something you want to continue like you want it to be active next month, then you need to go ahead and at least consider forming an llc. And I can get into the specific steps on what that entails, etc. But the reason why I want you to start with considering an LLC is because an LLC is going to separate your liability, your business liability from your personal liability. So as you're getting your feet wet, as you are starting your Etsy shop, as you're putting your goods, most usually again goods rather than services, but as you're putting your goods out there into the world to monetize. What we do not want to have happen is any kind of circumstance where that could have a negative effect from a legal perspective on your personal life. In other words, if you accidentally did something wrong and you had a really you accidentally did something wrong and the other party decided to be litigious about it, we don't want that accidental mistake to cause that other party to be able to access any of your personal bank accounts. That's really just the blunt way of saying it. So I always think of an LLC as a bubble of protection around the business that you're creating that separates you from your again, personal assets and liability. I can.
- [10:38]
B
Okay, so we should. It's really, really so. So to protect yourself, to make sure that. Or to try to prevent someone trying to sue you and actually accessing your personal livelihood, your personal savings and things like that, you want to have an LLC in place to make sure that there's a distinction between your, your personal life and your business life. And you want to set up your Etsy Shop through that llc, ideally, like from the jump, if you can, that's correct.
- [11:04]
C
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And I get a lot of. I obviously have a lot of conversations when it comes to LLCs. I. LLCs can sound a little daunting, especially if you are just getting started. And there's always that question of when and why. And the reason why I say I'm so liberal about starting one is in most states it's very, very inexpensive to start one. For example, in my state of Oklahoma, it's $100. So for $100, yeah, that's really cheap. California is going to be. California is the most expensive in the country, naturally. So for anyone in California, they're usually my kind of asterisk to this type of education I provide. You might want to wait till you make at least a little bit more money before you actually go form it because it's around $1,000 to form in California. But I rec. And I actually, let me take this from the abstract and get specific about it. My little sister is starting an Etsy shop. I didn't tell you this. She started a business this past year and she's actually starting an Etsy shop, I think very literally this week. I kid you not. So I'm thinking of her as I'm. As I am speaking about all of this. But when she started selling her paintings, or even from when she started with the Shopify site, so when she created that Shopify site and went in the Instagram account and wanted to start selling her paintings before she even made a dollar, I had her go ahead and set up her llc. So, so that she immediately had that barrier of protection and so that the first dollar that came into her business bank account came into her business bank account didn't come into her personal funds. So that if, God forbid, again, let's say she painted something and someone said that was copyright infringement and tried to sue my little sister, well, that would be an unfortunate. That wouldn't work too well for the person trying to sue her. But I would want an immediate sense stop between her personal assets and liability and that painting business assets and liability. So anything that happens with the business has nothing to do with the personal. As a lawyer, if I'm trying to sue somebody, I have to ethically act in the best interest of my clients at all times. That means if I'm suing somebody, I'm trying to do something called pierce the corporate veil and I'm trying to prove that you aren't running your LLC correctly and therefore you aren't warranted that limited liability protection and therefore I can access your savings accounts and your checking accounts and every account that you have to get as much money as I can for my client. And that's just me doing my job. So if we're running our LLCs correctly, again, we create that, that stop gap, that barrier between someone like me being able to do that.
- [13:54]
B
Okay, so what does it mean to set up an llc? Like what do we need? What do we need to do? What are the steps?
- [14:00]
C
So there's. I will go ahead and make a quick plug. I since I've spoken to you last, I have another little company which is called wait for LLC one two three trademark. I was like, I like that one. It's just corny enough. So we list. I have all of this information and quite a few follow up places that we'll provide at the end of this, at the end of this podcast. But we list it out in four simple steps. You file with the Secretary of State and you're assuming that we're. I'm speaking to US listeners right now. I should have started with that. But you file step number one with your Secretary of State. That's where you pay the, you know, 100 or whatever it might be dollar filing fee. You usually get that paperwork back within a day. Step number two is you then file for your EIN number. This is your business's Social Security number according to the irs. And this is something that the IRS mandates that you have as soon as you start making money within your business. And as just an asterisk really quick to that note, if you're listening to this and for some reason still decide to be a sole proprietor, you still need to get an EIN number. So there are still steps that you have to take. So getting back to forming an llc, step number three is you open a business bank account. We don't want you to commingle any funds that you make with the business with your personal accounts. Step number four is get an operating agreement in place. And really I should probably flip flop those two steps because your operating agreement is the contract that governs the llc. It dictates. It's a really boring looking document that can save you. I mean I've seen people save literally tens of thousands of dollars in lawsuits by having it and of course the opposite. But it is the contract that governs how the LLC is going to be run. It's black and white proof that the LLC is an actual business. It will hit if it's drafted correctly. It's going to hit things like how members can be added, removed et CETERA we can get, we get. The template I have in the shop I think is about, I don't know, it's pretty, it's pretty succinct. It's about 15 pages long. I drafted one a few weeks ago that was 260 pages long. So they can, they can vary. But the reason why we want step three and step four. So your operating agreement and opening your business bank account is again going back to what I mentioned earlier, piercing the corporate veil. If you, God forbid, do have to fall back on this limited liability protection that you're trying to obtain. The first two things a lawyer is going to look for who's trying to prove that you shouldn't have this protection is whether or not you've commingled your money and whether or not you have an operating agreement. If I try to sue someone for a piercing of corporate bail claim, if they hold up an operating agreement in court, again, it acts as essentially black and white proof that no, this isn't a facade business, this is an actual business. And it become, I mean, even, even myself, once I see one, I'm like, well, there goes the case essentially. Or I can't, I can't pierce the corporate veil at least. So it is a. Think of it as your, your sword and your shield when it comes to building, building your LLC or forming your llc.
- [17:30]
B
Okay, so do you, do you have somewhere where those steps are like written out and where I know I have a link for. I, I personally use your single member LLC agreement. I wanted to make sure I had a contract that was specific to my industry. I wanted to make sure. I mean, I just trust you implicitly. So I got yours because I wasn't going to mess with whatever free download there was on the Internet. I wasn't going to mess with some really general situation. I personally think we need to be getting it from you because you understand our business. But I'm going to link that. Is there somewhere you got those steps too though?
- [18:03]
C
Absolutely. So I have them a couple of places.
- [18:06]
B
Okay.
- [18:07]
C
I feel like I have them all over the place, but I know first place I have them is that company, LLC123. It's just listed out on like the homepage. I mean, I just lead with like, there it is. And if you want to form your LLC yourself, you can, you have the tools to do it. We also have that information and I can provide you with some specific links after this. Lizzie, just to make it easier for everybody, but I have specific blog posts on the Creative Law Shop website that walk us through literally step by step exactly how to form an llc.
- [18:44]
B
So guys I will link. I'm gonna make it really clear in the show notes like I always do. I also on my website I literally have like a page holes page where it literally because we're not going to get into this today there's certain. There's a place in your Etsy shop where you can put kind of like the terms of your shop. What are they? What is it called?
- [18:59]
C
Yeah, just your terms and conditions.
- [19:01]
B
Is it? Yeah, it's something like that. I think there's a different word and I'll think of it in a second. But basically Paige has recommended to me specific clauses that Etsy seller should have in them and you want to so you'll want to grab those. Some of them are actually free on her website and some of them you have to pay for because you're going to be customizing them. But though like there's I have a whole info sheet too on what she's recommended if you want to get into the nitty gritty. But this LLC piece is what I really wanted to hit on because I too many people I think don't have it and I see, I see enough mistakes on a day to day basis that people could get in trouble for where I'm just like oh my gosh, see the show notes. Yeah, we'll get it for you.
- [19:37]
C
Can I interject with one off the cuff remark?
- [19:40]
B
Yeah.
- [19:41]
C
What will be many and just speak. Speak very bluntly. I right now I'm. My inquiries through my law firm have fluctuated since ChatGPT came out and I know a lot of people are using ChatGPT for legal documents and that's a whole other conversation that we can have. But I will just say bluntly when it comes to especially the templates that we have in the Creative Law shop like you mentioned, those are templates. I kind of hate the word template but that's what they are. But they're redacted contracts I wrote for myself when I started my own Etsy shop. So it's very literally the exact same operating agreement I use for my own business. I have had a client who went without getting obviously into the details spill.
- [20:23]
B
The tea page spill.
- [20:24]
C
It had used used a free. Had used a free operating agreement that she. This was a couple years, this was a year before ChatGPT it really came out but had used a free operating agreement that she found online. And when it came to I'll just say the next step in their business plan that she and her business partner had to take. They lost out on a. Believe this is such a wild range to say it was between 50 and $75,000 in tax breaks. And I cannot remember right now the exact, the exact number. But they missed out on being able to take advantage of, in my opinion, and a very sizable tax break that they could have taken advantage of because their operating agreement lacked the language that it needed in order to facilitate that next step in business. Literally because it was missing like a half of a paragraph. So I just want to. I just want to make that brief note.
- [21:26]
B
It's literally like people want to say like this is literally about protecting you guys. I'm a huge fan of ChatGPT. I use it all the time. It helps me with so many things and it's just not at the point yet, guys, where it's like, don't use it for your SEO. Don't use it for legal advice. Anything it outputs, check. Let me give you a silly example. I am working on a pair of socks to give my brother in law for Christmas. I'm a knitter, okay. I like to knit on my DPNs with my fancy yarn. While I'm watching right now. What are we watching? The Gilded Age on in the evening yesterday. Are you serious? You are in for such a treat. Just the acting gets better, I promise you. But it's so good. If anyone like Downton Abbey, it's like, it's. It's Julian Fellows you've got. Anyway, I digress. So I'm having to adjust said knitting sock pattern because my brother in law has some big feet. Okay. And the knitting pattern does not have the appropriate sizing. So what did I do? I put it into chat GPT and I'm like, hey Gigi, I'm needing you to adjust this for XYZ and it. And it gave me a great rewrite of most of the sock pattern. And anyone who knows when you get to the heel flap and you have to do the little part where it turns into the heel, the spacing of the stitches is really important. And Gigi steered me so wrong, she did me dirty. And I now have really, really wonky socks that I have to pull out and redo. So if Gigi cannot handle. Let me be very clear. If chat GPT cannot handle the most basic math problem of where to place these stitches because you guys know your girl Lizzie is not doing that math. Someone is doing it for me. It's either the girl at the knitting shop, it's my husband, or it's Chachi PT and it did me dirty so I had a totally wonky sock. I had to go redo it and I went back to her and I said, listen girl, this is what's happened. And she's like o I messed up and gave me a. We're gonna, we're going for. I'll let you guys know. Take two. This is a silly example but to tell you that the most basic thing that it should be able to do with its knowledge it cannot do well.
- [23:22]
C
And, and Lizzie to, to piggyback off of that really quickly and I know we'll probably unit.
- [23:27]
B
I'm so excited.
- [23:29]
C
No, this is going to be a very different. This is more of a tangent, I guess you could say. I know we'll probably get on like actual AI legality later in the conversation, but I just want to be like extremely, extremely blunt when I say this. Remember one of the major ethical concerns that you're hearing people if you like Google ethical concerns with GPT or Chat GPT right now, one of the major concerns it has is inherent bias. It is literally every single time you provide an input you're training your Chat GPT. So this isn't a tool where you can go in and it automatically spits something out perfectly. You have to refine over and over and over and over and over again and you can get it there. And that's all well and good, but when it comes to drafting contracts, if you're not starting from the position where you know how to catch those mistakes and how to refine it, can I just screw around with it? So I use it every single day, but I'll just screw around with it from a contract perspective every now and then to see what it spends spits back at me. Some of what it misses is almost like terrifying because it would look, it would look great from a, you know, a non practitioner's standpoint. So again, I'm just making that note and I use, I just, I use Chat GPT like I said, every day. And I'll use it to like, I'll use it actually to redline or like counter argue myself, which I think is great. That's like I prefer my own Socratic method on myself but I'll write a provision, I'll say poke holes in it and let it refine me as an attorney or as refine my language as an attorney, but never starting using it as the foundational piece to create the language. There's a huge difference there we are.
- [25:16]
B
We are using this tool and yes, it does have 30,000 PhDs. I understand that, but it's just not infallible. So I'm so glad we I think that right there is like a big piece for people to take away. Yeah. Are you ready to to switch gears a little bit?
- [25:32]
C
I am.
- [25:33]
B
Okay. Okay. So highly recommend you get an llc. I will provide a link to pages. I recommend it. It's what I use. I feel much safer doing it. We've so but up to you. You. You can. It's up to you.
- [25:48]
A
Are you a print on demand or digital product Etsy seller who tight on time or still learning all of the Etsy secrets? I totally remember the days of having no idea what product to create next before I learned how to make those informed decisions. So I can really identify with where you're at. I know how stressful and frustrating it can be to just create listing after listing and see little to no results. You wonder what you're doing wrong and just you just want someone to tell you what to create that's actually going to sell. Where are those opportunities? So let me give you a leg up with my weekly trends and opportunities report. You just join my membership and every Monday I'm going to send you an email with a list of exactly what is trending right now with a video tutorial showing you how I found those trends and how to apply them in your shop. We're taking guesswork and time extensive time off of your table. I'm also going to send you five print on demand and digital product opportunities that are growing in demand right now, helping new shops make sales and still have very low saturation in the marketplace. So your tight schedule, your newbie status doesn't have to hold you back anymore. I'm going to help you earn while you learn. You can grab my free demo to start and see an example of what the weekly trends and opportunities email looks like right from the show notes. See what you're going to get and I will see you on the inside soon.
- [27:04]
B
I wanted to ask you what are the really common legal mistakes that you see? Because you're the one literally getting the desperate emails that I'm sometimes cc'd on from Etsy sellers that are dealing with these issues. But I mean when I do shop reviews every month in my membership, there is not a single time that we meet that there is not some intellectual property violation in what my students are creating. And I mean I harp on this constantly but it's so hard sometimes to even know how to do the research. I'd love to hear from you what the common mistakes are what you're seeing and what we need to do to protect ourselves. A little better or a lot better.
- [27:37]
C
Absolutely. And this is where you and I have had this conversation I think both online and offline quite a few times. I, and to be clear, I started my. I actually I started, won't get into my whole origin story but I had a side calligraphy business when I, when I first entered the creative world. That's what led me into starting my own law firm and working with creative entrepreneurs. My first business was on Etsy and so I am very, I want to be very clear, I am a huge proponent for Etsy but because of what we're about to talk about as you're building your Etsy shop in the strongest terms possible, I recommend that you build out or have a backup place that you can go that your customers can go to if God forbid there is like a shutdown type of situation on Etsy. Those are the worst emails that I get from my Etsy clients. So that's just one little side note I want to throw in there. But you're hitting on what I really focus in on in my day, day to day work. We're legally not allowed to use the word specialized but, but if we could that's, that's what I would say.
- [28:48]
B
Wow, I didn't know that.
- [28:50]
C
Yeah. Unless I get like a special credential. I. But I am an intellectual property attorney so I do intellectual property. About 90% of what I of the work that I provide for my clients is intellectual property. So when we're talking about intellectual property sounds great. Usually I'm met with a blank stare because people don't know what intellectual property.
- [29:11]
B
It assume we're doing that.
- [29:15]
C
Literally spoke with someone last, I'm not kidding last week. Who he sold his company for a hundred million dollars. He's in the oil and gas industry. He's being kind and like just making small talk and asking what I said what I do. And I said I'm an intellectual property attorney. And he goes oh, like bitcoin. I was like no, no.
- [29:34]
B
Did you laugh? Were you able to keep straight fins?
- [29:39]
C
No, not quite like bitcoin. Intellectual property sounds fancy, but let's strip it down. Intellectual property are those intangible assets that you create every day within business. So those are its three different areas. Patents, which covers inventions. We're not going to talk about patents any more than just that note. The second area of intellectual property are copyrights. Copyrights cover tangible works of authorship. So a painting, a photograph A mug, a pillow, your socks that you're knitting. That's. That all falls under copyright laws. The third area is trademarks. Trademarks are a brand. The literal definition of a trademark legally is a brand identifier. So in other words, that means a logo, a slogan, or your business name. Those things comprise intellectual property. So when we're talking about, I don't want to say major concerns for Etsy owners, but the most prevalent concerns that hit my inbox, it comes from people either seeing their stuff resold on Etsy or variations or iterations of their stuff resold on Etsy. So that's on the plaintiff side. That's when we have to go take action on the defensive side. And the more panicked side is when I receive the emails saying that someone's shop has been suspended or shut down or a product has been removed because of an Etsy violation. And I'll, I will, I will get into as much more detail on any of that that you want me to. But as a concluding note to this, I want to say the reason why I started with saying I want people to have a backup Shopify site is because it's, I think it's fantastic that Etsy has its own internal way of monitoring intellectual property violations, but it sometimes goes rogue or they go rogue and it doesn't align with actual statutes and actual intellectual property laws at times. And so really what that, what that actually means is I see a lot of instances where people, where people's accounts have been flagged or again, listing have been removed or worst case scenario, their shop has been been shut down for a reason that's not actually permissible under US Laws. So as an Etsy owner, the good, there's a lot of good about being an Etsy owner. And the good news is, is you have, you have somebody there that's, if you do have to, you know, flag somebody else's account, it's pretty easy to do. So the bad news is, is that you as an Etsy owner have to do a bit more due diligence than a typical business owner would have to do when it comes to putting your products out there, simply because you don't want to hit that tripwire too easily.
- [32:29]
B
So for example, guys, when I was playing with print on demand, this is where the. Well, no, let me back up. And most of you heard this, but I just want to say a lot of, you know, my daughter's name is Lorelei and that is because I am a Gilmore Girls junkie. In fact, the show was made for me I just share it with the rest of the world. I'm just kidding. But you can see I'm a super fan. When the. When they decided to come out with the. What do they call it? Like, the remix, the remake, they. Whatever. Several years ago. I was in my sign business at the time, and I created a bunch of signs with quotes from the show, and I got featured on Huffington Post. I got featured on. What's the other big one? I don't know. A couple of really big publications. And I went to my parents and I'm like, look what happened. And my dad's like, you're gonna get sued. Get that down immediately. Immediately. Because I was literally taking their intellectual property. I guess it would fall under copyright because it was their. Their scripting. I could have gotten in big trouble. I was selling them like hotcakes. And also I was just like, no, this is my show. But also for real. For real. When I was selling printables, I had a. Okay, when you go to a baby shower and they put a bunch of stuff in a jar and they say, how many things are in the jar? And it's a game. Well, I did one with Legos on it, and I got a cease and desist letter from Lego itself. I actually had it really easy. Did you know that?
- [33:45]
C
No, I haven't heard this story.
- [33:47]
B
Okay. So I myself got myself into hot water. And so when I got into print on demand, I actually, this was like, later in my Etsy journey, and it took me. So. You're welcome for telling you guys up front, I didn't know I needed to do this stuff. I consider myself an intelligent person who literally tried to go to law school. But the point is, I didn't realize, like, everyday phrases like happy camper are trademarked. It occurred to me from my previous experience, maybe don't do Taylor Swift lyrics. Stay away from everything. Disney, let's not put friends on a T shirt. These are intellectual property. I didn't realize everyday phrases. Merry Christmas. You can't put on a shirt. So, Paige, talk to us about this, because I don't understand. I. I don't understand how someone can trademark Happy Camper. Like, I feel okay, and I've gone down the bad side of Reddit more than once. You know this about me. It's a. It's a. What do you call it? This is a toxic trait. And there are literally, like, entire threads devoted to talking about the abuse of this. Like, there's Chinese companies buying all of these popular phrases. Okay, I'm gonna stop talking Because I'm not saying, and I'm just blabbering. But tell us about this. Like, what's the truth?
- [34:48]
C
Okay, so you're hitting where. Where to begin? Okay, so I mean, we're gonna. Let's start as, like, simplified as possible. Okay, let's start with. Again, going back to our definition of what's a copyright, what's a trademark? Copyrights are tangible works of authorship. Trademarks are brand identifier. So slogan, logo, brand name. If someone, when I say brand identifier, that's the most important part of that definition because that means that someone can prove that they are using that phrase in association with making money, essentially. I hope no other trademark attorney is listening, listening to me explain in plain English this, this definition, because I'm trying to strip it down so much. But that means, like, if can prove that you're making money in association with that phrase, you can, you can file for a trademark.
- [35:48]
B
Like how to sell your stuff.
- [35:50]
C
Yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. Like my, like LLC 1, 2, 3 is trade. Every one of my business names obviously are trademarked. But if some, technically, if someone sold something. Now that I say that if something sold Something that said LLC, 1, 2, 3, I'd have the ability to send them a, a cease and desist, which isn't how I'm using my free time. But I digress. So someone like Taylor Swift, if you want, if you want to just poke around and get comfortable with a website that every Etsy Etsy owner should get comfortable with, which is the United States Patent trademark office. So uspto.gov they have a search. It's really easy. It's like one of the biggest buttons on the website. They have a trademark search button that you can use and you can search. And I want to be very, very clear, this is not the same thing as running an actual due diligence search. But this is just the first step that you should take before you put any words on anything in your Etsy shop. It's not foolproof, it's not completely perfect. But you can go in and if you wanted to put Happy Camper on a T shirt, I would, I would go into the USPTO and I'd search Happy Camper and see if it's been trademarked. I use Taylor Swift as an example all the time. Just because she's a trademark queen. And you, you can go in and you can find. I mean, she's trademarked, like the lyrics. Shake it Off. I can't remember how many I was. Actually, I just looked at it the other day, actually, I can't remember how many trademarks she owns, but that's. If you want to sell Taylor Swift lyrics or put lyrics on anything, start with at least looking there. And to your point. And actually, the US this is me being a little bit nerdy, but the USPTO just overturned. I think it was like 52,000 trademarks that they realized had been filed by bots or foreign entities acting improperly, essentially. So they're. They're cleaning house right now, which makes me very happy because there have been several times where in particular, like in 2020, the China. A company in China crashed the USPTO website because they filed I think 15,000 applications in one day. So anyways, lots more to say there, but start with just searching on the USP to get comfortable with that USPTO search function and start there. You can also do the same thing with the copyright office. Although I will warn you as a user, the copyright office is like. Or their website is clunky and not nearly as easy to navigate, but you can actually search records for if something has been copyrighted. So, for example, lyrics to a song or something like that.
- [38:38]
B
I just. As a general rule, I mean, obviously you guys listen to Paige. As a general rule, I don't touch anything that someone else has created. I don't. Even if I go Google, like, let's say there was something recently, there were. I didn't realize it was this. Like, you might not even realize it's a song lyric. Honestly, if there's a listing on Etsy that is taking off and it has a phrase on it, I go just search the phrase before I do anything else. And if I see it's part of a song, it's part of a book. If I see it connected to someone's name, I'm like, next. I don't even touch it. I don't even go look and see if it's copyright. You know what I mean? Like, I just don't f. Around to find out. I just don't.
- [39:11]
C
That is $10,000 advice. I just literally. That is $10,000 Advice. I wish that. I hope that everyone listening really hears you when. When you say that.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah.
- [39:22]
C
Because that's. That's about how much it takes to just. For a very simple fight to just protect yourself if you do, God forbid, accidentally land yourself in a position where you. You do receive a shutdown or a cease and desist.
- [39:35]
B
So, I mean, I know it sounds like it's like, okay, well, I can leverage a demand on this yeah, but at what cost? Like get, just get better at the craft. I will help you come into the membership, come into transpotting, do something to sharpen your skills so you can cleverly come up. Believe me, I did not start this journey being able to cleverly come up with things I had to learn. And it's my job to teach you. So I understand the appeal. I made the same mistake with Gilmore Girls, like right here. Guilty party of one. Didn't know Paige at that point in time to keep me in my, keep me in line. But like, for you guys, just get, just get better. There are so many other ways to do it. Okay, that was super, super, super helpful. Thank you. Paige. How are we doing on time? We got to kind of wrap it up. Ish. Do you have any insight into like, the legality of AI these days? I mean, Etsy is still saying we can, we can sell things created with the help of AI. When we're setting up the listing for a digital product, we have to click a button that says made with the help of AI. And we are required by Etsy to put a phrase in our, in our listing description that it was helped me with the help of AI. But beyond that, I don't know what I'd love your thoughts on.
- [40:41]
C
Okay, that's good to know. I, I research, I literally research AI. Like updates to AI legality every Monday because new cases come out every single week. And a couple weeks ago, there was one case in particular where literally two judges, two appellate judges in different appeals, so like equal level judges were faced with the same case and on the same day released their holdings and they were exactly the opposite from one another. So my point being the legal landscape changes literally every day when it comes to AI. But I do have, I do have some insight into, into it in general. First, going back to something we were talking about earlier when we were talking about using Chat GPT for contracts. However you want to use chat chatgpt, you do you. But I do want you to know that it is, it is. So this is something that I don't think enough lawyers are talking about. It is so easy to subpoena somebody's ChatGPT records. So if you find like you were talking about a second ago, if you see a listing that's taking off and you're trying to figure out how to create a, like a variation of it, something that's maybe different enough that it's not an actual, you know, replica of it, but. Or maybe somebody's. I saw this with somebody's like email campaign recently. Like, you pull a competitor's, whatever that thing is that you're trying to replicate and you give chat GPT the prompts and say, here, you know, here's the listing. Let's figure out a creative way to create something similar. A lawyer can go subpoena those records and prove that you were trying to actually. Yeah. And it's not hard if you actually go to. And if you're like me, I just always. I have chat GPT just pulled up all the time because I have a chronic condition of leaving tabs open all the time. But if you actually go to the OpenAI website, you'll actually see like in bold print on their homepage right now, their own disclaimer about how there's a case going on. The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft. And that's going to be. I have some blog posts on it in my law firm site. That is going to be the landmark case that's going to decide a lot of the questions that we're asking when it comes to AI legality. But right now, a judge in that case has expressly ruled that any records that you provide or inputs, again, chats, any records that you provide to ChatGPT can be subpoenaed and they are not private. That is something that ChatGPT has to hand over. So keep that in mind, again, if you are, especially if you are using it for some competitor research or using it to help formulate your ideas based on something that someone else has created. The main question that comes up right now that I really want to drive home when it comes to AI legality, and I didn't talk about this, it actually kind of harkens back to what we were, what we were just talking about when it comes to intellectual property. So in order to actually protect copyrights, for example, in order to actually be able to enforce your rights to something that you've created. So let's say a design that you've created that falls under copyright laws. And in the United States, you have to have a copyright registration in order to actually take action against the infringers. So if I receive a cease and desist letter, this actually happened a couple days ago. If I receive a cease and desist letter on behalf of a client, to be clear, alleging copyright infringement, my first. And if they don't list the copyright registration in the cease and desist letter, my first response is provide proof of registration. And then they just won't respond because they know that they can't they can't pursue those claims. So in, if you have something, if you and I have a client who's in this position, she has a, a print that went viral or a design that went viral and is the bestseller in her shop. And it was worth the, it was worth it to copyright it so that she actually owns that design and can stop other people from recreating iterations of that design. The reason why I mentioned all of this and I'm talking about AI is because the main question that comes up and the, the reason why Etsy is requiring that you click, click those buttons and provide those, provide the disclaimer, et cetera. The main question courts are trying to decide is whether or not so we all know that the outputs that you get on Chat GPT are completely contingent upon the inputs that you provide it. So basically the better you are at using ChatGPT, the better the results, right? So there's an argument to be made that someone like I, I have, I know some AI actual like AI consultants, someone like them using Chat GBT is going to look wildly different from me and they could create some like a business plan that could change the world. I'm like, I use it, I don't use it that well compared to them. So you. There is an argument to be made that what they create with ChatGPT is truly so original and artistic enough that maybe it does warrant, maybe it can be considered an original work under the definition of a copyright under U.S. laws. If you remember my, my boring definition that I provided earlier, right now that's, that is the basis behind the New York Times versus OpenAI lawsuit. Because OpenAI is claiming that outputs that Chat GPT provides, essentially they're stating that those are original works of authorship and they fall under the defense of something called fair use. And therefore if ChatGPT provides something that replicates someone else's copyrighted work too much, there shouldn't be liability. And of course I'm oversimplifying like a 70 page motion, but let's leave it at that. What the New York Times is alleging is that if you're using, if those inputs are based upon, or even if, if those inputs are based upon, or those out based upon someone's copyrighted work, or the outputs actually replicate someone's copyrighted work too much, that is copyright infringement. What happened and what they were able to prove is that ChatGPT was reproducing copyrighted articles from the New York Times, like almost verbatim, because it can just comb the Internet and find them, even behind a paywall. So there's a lot of other cases that have pop up, popped up like that. And actually as of the date of us recording this just a couple of days ago, I think like five days ago, Mexico's version of the Supreme Court ruled that you cannot. That works created by AI do not warrant copyright protection. So you can't copyright.
- [47:49]
B
That's where we were at.
- [47:50]
C
It's not actually codified yet. That's where we have most. That's what I'm advising people and that's what most you'll hear most intellectual property attorneys are advising people. We need a Supreme Court decision before we can actually say definitively. Like I said a second ago, you have to have a copyright registration before you can actually legally enjoin or stop someone from replicating your work. That's based off of 2019 SCOTUS decision. And we need something like that. When it comes to AI.
- [48:22]
A
Are you brand new to Etsy, about to get started, or struggling a bit to find your groove? What I'm about to say is just for you, okay? I can completely relate to where you're at because I think I can help you achieve success faster. When I first started my Etsy shop, it was not one of those success stories that we hear, you know, on the big YouTube channels, even on this podcast where I just had crazy success and it took off right away, right? I all but failed. Failed for my first six months, just like a lot of new sellers. And so it's very relatable. And the issue for me was I didn't understand demand for one. I didn't understand SEO. I was way too broad in my search terms and I didn't know how to position my product so that customers just couldn't help but click add to cart. And so once I learned those things, I went from making about $25 a month in sales to $6,000 a month and up. And in the holidays, I would even have $13,000 a month. Like at my shop, sales peak. And the thing about me, if you've been here for a minute, you already know this. I'm a terrible gatekeeper, okay? When I figure something out, when I crack a code, when I get excited, I cannot help but tell everybody who wants to listen. It's like either my, my best asset or my toxic trait. I can't decide. But I put everything that you need to know to fill that beginner knowledge gap into a low ticket, just under three hours beginner course that I have called Six Figure Secrets to getting started on Etsy in it, I'm teaching you how to find what's in demand for, for your niche, how to find and use trends, how to start your shop.
- [49:43]
B
If you're worried about that part.
- [49:44]
A
SEO strategy to find the micro niches where the opportunity is, how to understand the Etsy algorithm and a ton more. The whole thing is bite sized videos. Not long form, just small bite sized videos. Zero fluff and to the point. You could get the course today, go through the less than three hours over the next couple days, launch your shop this weekend and have sales coming in as soon as Sunday. So let's get you the first few missing pieces of the Etsy success puzzle, those little tweaks you need to make so you can start making the sales that you deserve. Because I have never been more convinced that there is room at this table on Etsy for everyone. And the opportunity is so ripe right now. I am in the, in the numbers, in the data every day and my mind just keeps expanding on the possibilities. Okay, so as a special treat, use the code save50 to save $50 on the six figure secrets course today. That's $50 off with a coupon. Save 50. And by all means DM me or shoot me an email when those sales start popping because I want to celebrate with you.
- [50:46]
B
Can I state this back to you in like Lizzy E's and just tell me if I've got this right. Okay, so, so basically with, with everything being so new with AI and the wild wild west as of right now, there's no clear way if you create something using or with the help of AI, there's no clear way to be able to protect it as your own intellectual property. Like it's right now, it's up in the air whether or not. And the decisions being made right now are where's the line about, oh, you used AI to help you create this. You can call it yours. So like if I create a piece of art with the help of AI, I can't necessarily protect it from other people copying it because it was made with the help of AI and we're trying to establish the line of where that changes. Is that true?
- [51:30]
C
That that's. Thank you. Thank you. That you are correct. And I, I think it's, it's easier to explain when it comes to visuals than it is when it comes to like. Yeah, because it's especially like if you have chat GPT reviewing something. Is that really the use of AI In a way that's, here's what I'm doing. Spell check like that's my whole argument too. Grammarly is, is AI. So like, to me, that's one of the huge like loopholes in that whole argument. But all of that being said, I'm. This is one of those. I'll keep tracking it. I'm diving into the, to the legal side of, of all of this and all. I'm reading all of these cases, like I said weekly, but sometimes it's better to work smarter, not harder. And I'm really watching the Authors Guild because the Author's Guild has to figure out how much of a book can be created with AI in order for an author to be able to copyright the book.
- [52:29]
B
Yes.
- [52:29]
C
So I think fantastic body to, to or a company to watch or to follow when it comes to this. And they recommend. I haven't actually looked in a little while, but they recommend to their authors that that final product of, you know, being the book can't contain more than 5 to 10% AI assistance without. That's the other, that's the other question. And that's, I mean that's obviously the immediate follow up that can get complex quickly. But what I'm advising my clients who provide any type of custom work or, you know, services or anything like that is to put a disclaimer in their website or excuse me, in their terms and conditions or their client services agreement as well, stating that yeah, I am using, I might use AI to assist in this project, but I will limit it to no more than, you know, five. The recommended 5 to 10% of the total. The total work. Coming down to your question about, like, how do we determine what percentage that's where. Yeah, who. I mean, that's where lawyers would start arguing. But if I'm creating something, I would literally like write down the steps it takes to create it and argue that that's 10%. 10%, 10%. Like we have to try to make it tangible somehow in order to actually calculate that. At the end of the day, what this all comes down to is if you're creating an. Again, images are the best, the best example of this. But if you're creating any type of artwork or images with AI, go ahead and assume that you can't copyright it. And so therefore, if somebody's ripping you off on Etsy, you've handcuffed your. Handcuffed yourself, you can't do about. Yep. And it is what it is. And also if you're using AI to generate artwork or images or something like that, and it actually has, because it scrapes the Internet has pulled some of Those elements from other images that exist. If you receive a takedown notice or.
- [54:32]
B
You know, any type of comply immediately.
- [54:35]
C
Then you don't have any. You don't have any legal leg to stand on when it comes to the definition of creativity, which is required in order to provide a defense for copyright infringement. So.
- [54:48]
B
Sorry. No, but good. Like, we need to protect artists too. These. These lines need to not be muddled. Eventually.
- [54:55]
C
Yeah, I have, I have. I'm going to save you from all of my very strong opinions about this. I have some very strong opinions about.
- [55:01]
B
Oh, the way I need to have a glass of wine with you in here. Every single one of them. Alas. Another time.
- [55:09]
C
There's a reason why the Sam Altmans of the world are saying that they don't think intellectual property should exist. I'll just say that.
- [55:16]
B
Money, money, money, money.
- [55:19]
C
Yeah.
- [55:21]
B
Anyway, I don't think I've ever seen on. I hope you guys stayed just for that. Paige, do you want to tell us about the. The Creative Law Foundry?
- [55:32]
C
I would love to.
- [55:33]
B
Yeah.
- [55:35]
C
I sound like I'm. I sound like I'm so. I sound like I'm anti AI and actually it's the exact opposite. I am so invested in AI that I've transformed one of my businesses to be an AI powered app. And so the Creative Law Foundry. And so I'm looking into this from the perspective of how do I create something with AI or that uses AI AI that I can still own every single element of that app. Yes, the Creative Law Foundry is the. What we can say the sister company to the Creative Law Shop. The Creative Law Shop, just to back up really quickly, is a, again, contract template shop that I founded back in 2017, I believe, just because within literally a month of starting my law firm, I realized one, entrepreneurs around the world need real contracts, and two, they. Not everyone can or should pay an attorney to draft it when you're just getting out of the gate, like, I don't want you to, if you're starting your business, I don't want you to come to me for a $5,000 contract. So I just created it as a. And I always jokingly say to democratize the legal side of business for creative entrepreneurs as much as possible. I had been joking about the concept of the Creative Law Foundry for a couple years before I actually started building it in 2023. In the back of my mind, I always knew that there's a way to simplify the template process for creative entrepreneurs or anyone who's using the templates and to make a Long story short, last in 2024 launched the foundry. The Foundry uses all of my so it's not based on an LLM model. That's something that I that I'm very, very proud of. We do not plug into OpenAI or anything like that. It is all an insular. An insular. This is where I'm going to betray my own lack of tech knowledge quickly here. But it's all built on an insular system, meaning you can come in and now click just a few buttons and fill out your own legally sound contract, each of which has been peer reviewed by someone an expert in that industry and not have to wonder if you're filling out a template correctly or not. So what we and I'm actually in the phase right here in the, in the process right now of we're about. We're working with developers and hopefully if we stay on schedule in early 2026 we're going to have a whole an entirely other set of functionality that I've been wanting to have in place literally since 2021. So I'm very, very, very excited about that. But again those are all of our contracts that have been. We created an app so that you can or a SaaS platform so that you can come in and just click a couple of buttons, fill it out. You have my. I have my own built in prompts for every single question. So if you ever wanted to ask me a question about how to fill out a provision, you literally have me right there telling you exactly what to fill out. And then we also have, we do Speaking of ChatGPT, we do have a customized ChatGPT or trained ChatGPT AI assistant right now who is there to help answer questions as well. And on the back end of that GPT I will say everything's all relevant data is redacted. But I uploaded seven years of questions I received through the Creative Law Shop. Thousands. Thousands of questions. I've uploaded every resource I've put out into the world around Creative Law, every negotiation I've engaged in regarding any of these contracts, et cetera, et cetera. Again, in a legally compliant way, in an ethical way.
- [59:21]
B
Yeah, it's not going to glitch on you like chatgpt writing a scary contract.
- [59:25]
C
Exactly. Yeah. No one's information is used impermissibly, but it's very literally a close as someone could have to having me in their back pocket as as you are working through the contract side of your business.
- [59:39]
B
With without the real time hourly price tag.
- [59:42]
C
Well and just the the wait time I mean, yeah.
- [59:45]
B
Oh, that's right.
- [59:46]
C
These days I forgot I get questions. It did it take me 20 hours to draft. Like think about the 200 something page operating agreement talking about. It's, you know, I'm. I always jokingly say I'm very flattered when my clients think I can get it done in a day, but that's not realistic. So I can only type so many words a minute. So it takes out again. Just going back to that concept, whether it's corny or not, of democratizing the legal side of business for entrepreneurs is something I'm. That's why I. That's something I'm extremely passionate about. That's why I've created every business. I've created. Created. I was raised by entrepreneurs. It's just in my blood. And I think that if someone wants to start a business, they should be able to. And I don't think legal should hamstring someone being able to do so.
- [60:36]
B
Yes. No. And we thank you for making it easier. You guys, I'm gonna have all of these things linked for you. The best place to follow Paige to start with is at Paige Hulse Law for the legal stuff. But if you want to see her gorgeous horses and farm, you're going to want to follow a Hulse. It's my favorite. She posts the most beautiful pictures and you're such a morning person. It's just not relatable. But I love it. I like, I like experiencing it through your eyes and I don't. I think, I think we've talked about all the resources. Is there anywhere else you wanted to point people?
- [61:05]
C
I should, I should know the answer to that off the top of my head. No, honestly, if you, if you. The Creative Law Shop and the Creative Law Foundry, and we're going to. Both of those are going to look very differently here in the next couple of months. Those, those are the places I would start. We have articles backing up or providing if you're a visual learner. We have articles covering every single topic I've talked about here today.
- [61:29]
B
So if you guys want to go deeper with Paige, if you want to make sure that you're making great legal decisions for your business, if you want to cover your bases, she's the person I suggest you go to. She breaks it down, as you can see, as easily as possible. And I will have links for you. But Paige, thank you so much for your for time and your extremely busy schedule. We're so, like, this is such a, such a service for you to provide to us. Thank you.
- [61:50]
C
Absolutely. And same to you, Lizzie. I really. I mean, there are so many people just like myself who got started just because I accidentally started an Etsy shop and then it was, oh, wait, I need to figure out how to actually do this. So literally. Thank God there's a resource like this. And I really appreciate what you do.
- [62:06]
B
It gives us a lot of comfort to be able to have somebody who understands our business so well. I mean, I just. I just don't want whoever's on the corner. I want some. Someone who knows what I've been. What I've been plugging away at. So, guys, thank you so much for hanging out with us. I hope you've learned a ton. I hope you chuckled along with us, and I hope you'll check out Paige's resources. So until next week, go make something awesome. Love you guys.
- [62:26]
A
And that's a wrap on this episode of how to sell your stuff on Etsy. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today. If you're looking for more resources, head on over to howtosellyourstuff.com where you'll find podcast, show notes, all the links from today's episode, the blog, courses, coaching, and more. If this episode was helpful to you, awesome. The greatest compliment I can receive from you is a rate, review and subscribe on this podcast. Not only will it allow us to connect again on a future episode, it lets me know I'm providing you with value and helps other people find this content more easily. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your support. Have a great day and see you next time.