B (6:30)

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and 0 grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. David. Protein bars also taste amazing. Even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough. But then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavored. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.

A (7:08)

I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.

B (7:11)

With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always.

A (7:27)

Keep one with me when I'm out.

B (7:28)

Of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories. If you'd like to try, David, you can go to davidprotein.com huberman Again, that's davidprotein.com huberman so one of the most.

A (7:46)

Powerful ways to stimulate epinephrine, which is also called adrenaline, from these neurons is through movement. The type of movement that I'm referring to is extremely subtle. Shivering is a strong stimulus for the release of adrenaline, epinephrine, into fat and the increase in fat oxidation and mobilization. And there are other subtle forms of movement that can greatly increase fat metabolism and fat loss. There was a group in England during the 1960s and 70s that discovered a pathway by which subtle forms of movement can greatly increase fat loss. This is the work of Rothwell and Stock. It's very famous in the thermogenesis literature. And I learned about this early on when I was an undergraduate. And I asked, how did they come across this? And here's how the story goes. They were aware that some people overeat and yet don't put on weight. Other people overeat even just a little bit, and they seem to accumulate extra adipose tissue. Now, this is long before all the discussions about microbiome and hormone factors. And, you know, it was long before many of the hormone factors besides insulin had even been discovered. What they did was they examined people who overate and did not gain weight. And what they observed was that those people engaged in lots of subtle movement throughout the day. In other words, they were fidgeters, and that's what they called them. And in 2015 and again in 2017, there have been studies that have explored this using some modern metabolic tracking and indeed, simply moving a lot. Being a fidgeter, bouncing your knee, standing up, and pacing several times or many times throughout the day led to considerable amounts of fat loss and weight loss. When people were ingesting the same amount of food, if they overate, they were able to compensate and burn off that food. So for people that are overweight who are kind of averse to exercise, fidgeting might actually be a good entry point. Now, that's great, and you can think about the protocols, But I want to nest that protocol in what I said before, which is that fat is controlled by these neurons and the epinephrine, they release those subtle movements of our core musculature. Not just the core, but all our limbs in our musculature, those low level movements, they trigger epinephrine release from these neurons and they stimulate the mobilization of fat. And then that fat is oxidized at higher rates. So what's the protocol? Fidget. If you're really interested in burning calories and you already exercise, you want to burn more, or you don't have the opportunity to exercise, or you're averse to exercise for whatever reason, fidgeting movements, staccato movements, standing up, walking around, pacing, all the sort of nervous Activities that we're so critical of in other people and sometimes in ourselves are actually mobilizing and oxidizing a lot of fat and a lot of energy. And while this probably won't compensate for chronic overeating, the caloric burn from this is considerable and very likely can offset a, you know, a meal that had excessive calories or a kind of steady state of accumul of eating too much. Now, it should make sense why shivering is one of the strongest stimuli that one can incorporate to stimulate fat loss. Now, shivering is almost always associated with cold. We think shivering, we think cold because when we get cold, we shiver. And there are two ways that shivering can increase fat loss. And there are several ways that you can use shivering. You can leverage shivering and you can leverage cold to accelerate fat loss. But you have to do it correctly. And most of the people that are using cold and frankly suggesting cold as a means to increase metabolism, fat loss are suggesting the exact wrong protocol. Most people out there are using cold exposure, typically by taking cold showers or by getting into cold water of some other kind, a lake or a river or a cold bath or an ice bath. Since today we're talking about accelerating fat loss through the use of science based tools, I want to emphasize a study that was published in Nature just a couple of years ago showing exactly how cold increases metabolism and fat loss. Okay, so we have several kinds of fat, three kinds, in fact. We have white fat, white adipose tissue, and we have brown fat or brown adipose tissue. And there's a third kind, which is beige adipose tissue. White fat is the type that we traditionally think of as fat, subcutaneous fat, and it is not particularly rich in mitochondria. It is there as an energy storage site, and we have to mobilize the fat out, as we talked about before, and burn it up elsewhere. Brown fat largely exists between our shoulder blades and on the back of our neck between the scapula. And it's rich with mitochondria, which is why it's called brown fat. And brown fat has a particular biochemical cascade whereby it can take food energy and can. It can take food, basically break it down and convert it into energy within those cells. But unlike fatty acids from white fat, which have to travel elsewhere, get broken down in mitochondria and convert into ATP, et cetera, used by the mitochondria. Rather, brown fat is thermogenic. It can actually use energy directly. Cold causes the release of adrenaline from your adrenals, and it causes the release of epinephrine from these neurons that connect to fat. The paper published in Nature shows that it is shivering itself that causes the brown fat to increase your burning, your burn rate and your metabolism. And it works like this. When you get into cold and you shiver, the shivering, that low level movement of the muscle, those small movements, triggers the release of a molecule called sucanate. S U C C I N a T E Sucanate. And sucanate acts on the brown fat to increase brown fat thermogenesis and fat burning overall. The question then is how long to get into that cold environment and how cold should that environment be? So first let's talk about how long to get into that cold environment. It turns out that if you want to trigger the shiver, what you want to do is to get into the cold and then get out of the cold and typically not dry off and then get back into the cold and out of the cold. That will definitely stimulate more shivering than just getting into the cold itself. So how cold should it be? And look, if you get into water that's very, very col, it can actually shock your heart, it can actually give you a heart attack if it's truly, truly ice cold and you're not adapted to that. So proceed with caution, please. I'm not a physician and I'm not. I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Cold, just cold enough to be uncomfortable is a good place to start. So for some of you, that's going to be 60 degrees. For some of you, that's going to be 55 degrees. For some of you it's going to be high 30s, right? Depends on how cold adapted you are. So what you need to do is find a temperature that you can get into one to five, probably one to three times a week. If you really want this to accelerate fat loss and you want to get in until you just start to shiver and then you want to get out and not dry off. Wait anywhere from one to three minutes and then get back into the cold. So here's a potential kind of sets reps protocol that you can play with. Find a temperature that induces shiver for you. That's going to vary depending on your cold tolerance and how cold adapted you are. One to three, maybe five times a week, get in until you, or get under the shower or whatever it is until you start to shiver, genuinely shiver. Then after about a minute or so, get out, spend one to three minutes out, but don't dry off. Get back in for anywhere from one to three minutes. But try and access the shiver point again and you might do three repetitions of that, so it's three times in and three times out total.

B (16:42)

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was. I started taking it and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health. Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function. Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake. But there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods. So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health and in turn brain and immune system health and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1 because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health and performance. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.comhuberman for this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one month supply of Omega 3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, Omega 3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com Huberman to get the free one month supply of Omega 3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.

A (18:37)

Next, I'd like to move to exercise and how particular timing and types of exercise can vastly improve fat loss. The topic of exercise is a kind of controversial one. I think the most simple way the Most fluid way to have this conversation about exercise and fat loss is in terms of three general types of training and those are high intensity interval training, so called HIT H I I T. So high intensity interval training, sprint interval training. So that's gonna be very high intensity or sit or moderate intensity continuous training. M I C T. So we've got hit, sit and micked. If you'd like to map this to VO2 max sit. This sprint interval training was defined as all out, greater than 100% of VO2 max bursts of activity that last 8 to 30 seconds interspersed with less intense recovery period. So this would be sprinting downfield for 8 to 30 seconds, then maybe walking back for about a minute or two and then sprinting again and then continuing. So that would be sit here hit HIIT is defined as submaximal. So 80 to 100% of VO2 max bursts of activity that lasts 60 to 240 seconds interspersed with less intense recovery periods. MICT. Okay, this moderate intensity continuous training is steady state Cardio, sometimes called Zone 2 cardio these days on the Internet, which is performed continuously for 20 to 60 minutes minutes at moderate intensity of 40 to 60% of VO2 max. Or if you prefer, heart rate 55 to 70% of max heart rate. Okay, so we can think about high, medium and low intensity exercise. Although low intensity usually means that you could carry on a conversation or maybe you have to gasp every, every few steps or so while trying to talk and run. That's, I think, going to be the most useful way to have this conversation that we're having now because there's so many different forms of exercise that people do and intensity is important. Let's ask the question that I think many of people are wondering about it, which is, is it better? Meaning, do you burn more fat if you do your exercise fasted? And fasted in this respect could be that you wake up in the morning, you've been fasting all night, you just hydrate and you exercise for short periods of training. It doesn't really seem to matter whether or not you eat before training or you don't. If your goal is fat oxidation at a period of about 90 minutes of moderate intensity exercise, there's a switchover point whereby if you ate before the exercise, you will reduce. Excuse me, you will burn far less fat from the 90 minute point onward than you would if you had gone into the training fasted. Now there are also studies that point to the fact that you don't have to wait to 90 minutes in order to get this enhanced fat burning effect, if one does high intensity training or even the very high intensity forms of training like sprints or squats or deadlifts or any kind of activity that can't be maintained for more than these, you know, eight or I would say up to 60 seconds. So a set of lifting weights, repeated, repeated, if that's done for anywhere from 20 minutes, so weight training or powerlifting or these kinds of things, or kettlebell swings or up to 60 minutes, well then the switchover point in which you can burn more fat if you go into that fasted comes earlier. And this makes sense because there's nothing holy about the 90 minute point for medium intensity zone 2 cardio. That 90 minute point is the point in which the body shifts over from mainly burning glycogen, basically sugar that comes from muscles or the liver, and realizes this is going on for a while, I'm going to shift over to a storage site, fuel that is in reserve, like body fat. This is something that has to do with the milieu of various hormones. What has to happen is insulin has to go down far enough so if you ate before the exercise, you'd have an increase in insulin. If you ate carbohydrates, you'd have a bigger increase in insulin. Fat and proteins indeed will have lower amounts of insulin and fasting will give you the lowest amount of insulin. Well then that switchover point is going to come earlier in the exercise. And if you think about, if you were to do something high intensity for 20, 30, 40 minutes, so maybe lift weights and then get into zone two cardio. If you are fasted, the literature says that you're going to burn more body fat per unit time than if you had eaten before or during the exercise. So what does this mean? This means if you want to burn more body fat, if it's in your protocols and you're, you know, have been approved to do this safely, exercise intensely for 20 to 60 minutes, the higher the intensity, obviously the shorter that bout is going to be. And, and then move over into zone two cardio. And if you do that fasted, then indeed you will burn a higher percentage of body fat. But if you can't even get to the exercise, if you're somebody who just can't do the training at all, you're unwilling to, or you're incapable of training unless you eat something, then obviously eating something makes the most sense. And what you eat prior to exercise, that's a whole other biz that people argue about and fight about whether or not you should go into it with low carbohydrates or higher carbohydrates, all of that. But in general, the theme there is very simple, which is that you want insulin levels to be pretty low. If your goal is body fat reduction, this could be distilled into a simple protocol whereby three or four times a week you do high intensity training, followed by either nothing or followed by low intensity training, especially if you're able to do that fasted. And I should just mention that none of this stuff about fasted is about performance. If you want to perform really well, you want it. Your this is for reasons of performance and you want to, you know, it's for a sport or a competition, it's not for body fat purposes. Well then all this kind of falls away and is modified by what's ideal to eat for performance. But what we're talking about today is how to optimize body fat, body fat loss. So I think you get the principle now, but you should all be asking yourselves, as scientists of yourselves, why would it be that certain patterns of exercise would lead to more or less fat loss? And again, it has to do with the neurons, it has to do with how we engage the nervous system. So while non exercise activity induced thermogenesis, neat. The fidgeting and cold can induce thermogenesis by engaging shiver type movement or low level movements, big movements that are of very high intensity, meaning they require a lot of effort, deploy a lot of adrenaline, epinephrine from our neurons and signal particular types and amounts of fat thermogenesis, fat oxidation, whereas low level intensity exercise, low or moderate intensity exercise, you know, walking, running, biking, where you can do that easily, there's not very much adrenaline release. So adrenaline, AKA epinephrine, is really the final common path by which movement of any kind, whether or not it's low level shiver, or whether or not it's lifting a barbell, sprinting up a hill or doing a long bike ride. Adrenaline is the effector of fat loss. It's the trigger and it's the effector. So now I want to turn our attention to compounds that increase epinephrine and adrenaline as well as compounds that work outside the the adrenaline epinephrine pathway to increase the rates of fat loss. I almost always save compounds and supplements and things of that sort to the end because I do believe that look first toward behavioral tools and an understanding of the science before they look toward a supplement or a particular thing that they can extract from diet. This is mainly to try and shift people away from the Kind of magic pill phenomenon or the. The idea that there is a magic pill because there really isn't, and frankly, there never will be. But there are some compounds that can greatly increase fat oxidation and mobilization. And understanding which compounds increase oxidation or mobilization can be very useful if your goal is to accelerate fat loss.

B (27:17)

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar. We should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree. It's also important that you're not just hydrated, but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios. Drinking a packet of element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of Both, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning. And I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I'll also drink a packet of element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. There are a bunch of different great tasting flavors of element. I like the watermelon, I like the raspberry, I like the citrus. Basically, I like all of them. If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.comhuberman to claim an element sample pack with the purchase of any element drink mix. Again, that's drink element spelled LMNT. So it's drinkelement.com huberman to claim a free sample pack.

A (28:34)

There are things that people can ingest that will allow them to oxidize more fat, and that occurs mainly by increasing the amount of epinephrine that is released from neurons that innervate fat tissue. One of the more common ones is one that you may already be using, which is caffeine. It's well established that caffeine can enhance performance if your caffeine adapted. Now, caffeine for burning more fat, for oxidizing and mobilizing more fat is an interesting one. It can be effective at dosages up to 400 milligrams. 400 milligrams is roughly a Cup and a half of coffee or two cups of coffee. Nowadays, there's a lot more caffeine in coffee. So if you go to a typical cafe and you were to get their medium size, that would have close to a gram of caffeine. Which is why if you, a regular caffeine consumer, and you don't get that gram of caffeine in your coffee each day, you will get a headache. It can cause constriction and dilation of blood vessels in ways that's complicated, but you'll get a headache. Caffeine can enhance the amount of fat that you burn in any duration of exercise, and it can shift the percentage of fat that you oxidize compared to glycogen, unless you take that caffeine and it ramps you up so much that you're training really, really intensely. The bottom line is, if you like caffeine and you can use it safely, ingesting somewhere between 100 and 400 milligrams of caffeine prior to exercise, somewhere between 30 to 40 minutes before exercise can be beneficial. If we're talking about fat oxidation, burning more body fat, and if caffeine is the kind of the entry point for most people of using compounds to increase the rate or percentage of fat loss in exercise and even at rest, what are some of the other things that are useful and interesting? Well, in terms of tools that are actionable and have reasonable safety margins, I've talked before about something called GLP1. This is something that can be triggered by the ingestion of yerba mate. Mate increases GLP1. GLP1 is in the glucagon pathway. So let's just quickly return to our biochemistry. As you recall, fat is mobilized from body fat stores and then it's burned up. It's oxidized in cells. It actually needs to be converted into ATP. And those fatty acids are essentially converted into ATP in the mitochondria of the cell. High insulin prevents that from happening, and glucagon facilitates that process. Glucagon facilitates that process through increases in GLP1. The short takeaway is mate increases GLP1 and, yes, increases the percentage of fat that you'll burn. It increases fat burning. And that is especially true, it turns out, from the scientific literature, if you ingest mate prior to exercise of any kind. So if you want to burn more fat, drinking mate before exercise is good. Drinking it at rest when you're not exercising will also help shift your metabolism toward enhanced burning of fat by increasing fat oxidation. Now, there's a Whole category of pharmaceuticals that's being developed right now that are in late stage trials or are in use for the treatment of diabetes, which capitalize on this GLP1 pathway. They go by various names and there are people on the Internet who are selling these things. They are prescription drugs. And I want to emphasize that they are prescription drugs. And you obviously wouldn't want to use any of these without a prescription and a requirement. It does seem that they are effective for the treatment of certain kinds of diabetes and lead to fairly significant weight loss and reduction in appetite. So this is kind of the modern version of GLP1 is pharmaceuticals. Of GLP1 metabolism are drugs such as somatic. I can never pronounce this. I can't seem to pronounce many things. It seems semaglutide is the way I would pronounce it. In any case, this compound increases GLP1. It's actually a GLP1 analog in some cases, and they go by various types of trade names. And again, the semaglutide is the prescription version of. It's kind of the heavy artillery GLP1 stimulant, and again should be only explored with a prescription. So those are the compounds that really increase fat oxidation directly. There are going to be a number of things that impact insulin and glucagon that are going to shift, shift the body toward more fat burning. And so, for instance, berberine, which comes from a plant, or metformin, are compounds that are now in kind of growing use for reducing blood glucose. They are very potent at reducing blood glucose, which will reduce insulin, because the job of the hormone insulin is to essentially manage glucose in the bloodstream. So there are huge gallery of compounds that will reduce insulin and thereby can increase fat oxidation. And that's because, as I mentioned before, fat oxidation, this conversion of fatty acids into ATP in the mitochondria, is inhibited by insulin. So if you keep insulin low, you're going to increase that process. Which brings us full circle back to the issue of diet and nutrition. There is really solid evidence from the Gardner lab at Stanford and from other labs showing that when you look at different diets, you look at low fat diets, high fat diets, keto diets, intermittent fasting, provided people stick to their particular diet, it doesn't really matter which diet you follow, you can still get a caloric deficit and you get weight loss. Adherence, however, is always an issue. And so what I always say is that you want to use the eating plan that is obviously beneficial to your health, but the one that allows you to adhere to whatever it is that the particular nutrition protocol is. Right. If you can't stick with something, then it's not very worthwhile. But from the purely scientific standpoint, there's also an advantage to keeping insulin low. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you go to zero carbohydrate. I've talked before about, or my preferred way of eating is to go low or no carbohydrate throughout the day for alertness to get that adrenaline release and the focus that goes with it, et cetera, and the ability and to think and move and do all the things I need to do during the day. And then I eat carbohydrates at night because it facilitates the transition to sleep. That's what works for me. But when insulin is low, you do place your system in a position to oxidize more fat. And so that's why I think a lot of people do see benefit from lower carbohydrate or moderate carbohydrate diets, because when insulin is low, you are in a position to oxidize more fat, both from exercise and at rest. So once again, we've covered an enormous amount of material. We've talked about the science of fat loss and in particular we've explored this topic from the perspective of the nervous system, how neurons, and in particular the release of things like adrenaline, epinephrine, can facilitate fat mobilization and oxidation. We talked about neat fidgeting, this non exercise type movement that can greatly increase caloric burn. And why that is, we talked about shiver, another form of non exercise movement that can really increase both caloric expenditure due to the shiver due to the movement, as well as increased thermogenesis, the heating up of the body through things like brown fat and even the conversion of white fat to brown fat, which is a good thing if you want to oxidize fat. We talked about cold as a particular stimulus to induce shiver, and how to use getting into and out of cold as a way to stimulate shiver and avoid cold adaptation so that you continue to oxidize and burn fat, if that's your goal. Talked about exercise how rather than thinking about cardiovascular or weight training exercise, that we should perhaps look through the lens of this adrenaline system and how it interacts with fat stores and think about low, medium or high intensity exercise, whether or not we show up to that fasted or not. Turns out showing up to that fasted can be useful if you start with high intensity movements and then move into lower intensity type exercise. If you're going to go long duration. It probably doesn't matter unless you're exercising longer than 90 minutes, whether or not you eat or not. We talked about caffeine as a stimulant and a stimulus for epinephrine and adrenaline release as a way to access more fat metabolism. And last but not least, I want to thank you for your time and attention today and thank you for your interest in science.