The Science & Art of Comedy & Creativity | Tom Segura

Summary

Podcast Summary: Huberman Lab Episode with Tom Segura

Episode: The Science & Art of Comedy & Creativity | Tom Segura
Release Date: May 19, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Huberman, Ph.D. and Tom Segura

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1. Introduction and Personal Connection (00:00 - 03:05)

Andrew Huberman welcomes Tom Segura, a renowned comedian, writer, and director. They reveal their familial connection, discovering that they are distant cousins with Basque roots who emigrated to South America generations ago.

Notable Quote:

• Andrew Huberman [01:52]: "We're related to each other as distant cousins."

2. Fitness and Running Discussions (03:05 - 09:35)

The conversation shifts to personal fitness habits. Tom shares his experience running a 5K with a weight vest, highlighting the challenges and camaraderie of large races. Andrew discusses his structured running regimen, emphasizing the neurobiological benefits of exercise on alertness and cognitive function.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [04:08]: "I hated that. I knew I had to do it, so it's going to suck."
• Andrew Huberman [07:09]: "Running three times a week. A long run, a medium run, and a short run."

3. The Creative Process in Comedy (09:35 - 27:28)

Tom delves into his approach to crafting comedy, emphasizing spontaneity and real-time testing of material through performances. He avoids scripting jokes fully, preferring to develop them on stage based on audience reactions. Andrew relates this to the neurobiology of humor, discussing how surprise and novelty activate reward circuits in the brain.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [20:37]: "Sometimes you listen to them later and you're like, holy."
• Andrew Huberman [51:26]: "The basic takeaway from the literature... is that the listener thinks that the narrative is going one way and then there's this surprise element."

4. Emotional Contagion and Audience Interaction (27:28 - 44:42)

The duo explores how comedians like Tom read and shift with the collective energy of the crowd, a concept known as emotional contagion. They discuss the importance of connecting with the audience's emotional state to enhance the comedic experience. Tom explains crowd work as an essential skill developed over years of performing, enabling comedians to handle unpredictable audience interactions seamlessly.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Huberman [77:56]: "Emotional contagion is real."
• Tom Segura [89:34]: "Crowd work is just part of the arsenal of skills you have over time as a comedian."

5. Substances and Mental Health in Comedy (44:42 - 74:21)

They address the prevalence of substance abuse among comedians, linking it to the high rates of mental health issues within the community. Tom emphasizes the necessity of coping mechanisms in the high-pressure environment of stand-up comedy and entertainment. Andrew discusses the neurochemical effects of exercise as an alternative to substance use for managing mental states.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [108:46]: "Comedians have a lot of mental health issues... substances kind of come with that."
• Andrew Huberman [16:46]: "Exercise gives you energy. That's how it gives you energy. It's not caloric energy; it's neurochemical energy."

6. The Darkness and Vulnerability in Comedy (74:21 - 102:47)

Tom and Andrew explore the darker aspects of comedy, discussing how acknowledging and channeling inner turmoil can enhance comedic material. They highlight that the best comedians often embrace vulnerability, allowing them to connect deeply with audiences. Tom reflects on personal insecurities and how comedy serves as a therapeutic outlet.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [105:01]: "The best people are the darkest comedians on stage."
• Andrew Huberman [84:06]: "There's this unspoken thing that happens, where, like, you're laughing at something and then you kind of go like, hey, we collectively are. Don't find this is just not funny anymore."

7. Evolution of Comedy Standards and Cultural Impact (102:47 - 129:57)

The conversation transitions to how comedic standards have evolved over decades, influenced by societal changes. They discuss pre-Lenny Bruce comedy and its distinctiveness compared to modern humor. Tom notes that while older jokes may not land as effectively today, the essence of humor remains rooted in surprise and relatability.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Huberman [94:01]: "Pre-Lenny Bruce comedy... is not as funny to me."
• Tom Segura [115:39]: "Comedy is one of those things where it's always shifting... it's part of the DNA of each era."

8. Balancing Personal Life and Creative Craft (129:57 - 134:50)

Tom shares insights on balancing family life with the demands of a comedic career. He discusses the importance of obsession with making people laugh and how personal growth influences creative evolution. Andrew commends Tom for his ability to merge work and family while maintaining a dynamic creative process.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Segura [130:44]: "I was trying to make people laugh... that became a thing."
• Andrew Huberman [132:52]: "You make our lives better. And so grateful you came out."

9. Conclusion and Reflections (134:50 - End)

Andrew and Tom wrap up the discussion by reflecting on the intricate relationship between comedy, creativity, and human psychology. They emphasize the importance of vulnerability, emotional connection, and continuous evolution in the comedic craft. Both express mutual respect and the desire for future conversations.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Huberman [133:31]: "You make our lives better. And so grateful you came out."
• Tom Segura [134:34]: "I'm a great role model to me. I'd love to have you back to continue the conversation."

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Key Takeaways:

• Neuroscience of Humor: Surprise and unexpected twists activate reward circuits, making jokes effective. Emotional contagion allows comedians to resonate with audience emotions.

• Creative Process: Successful comedians like Tom Segura favor spontaneity over scripted material, testing and refining jokes in real-time based on audience feedback.

• Mental Health: The high-pressure environment of comedy often correlates with substance abuse and mental health challenges, highlighting the need for healthy coping mechanisms like exercise.

• Evolution of Comedy: Comedic standards evolve with societal changes. What was once humorous may not resonate today, emphasizing the need for comedians to adapt and innovate.

• Vulnerability and Connection: Embracing vulnerability on stage fosters deeper connections with audiences, enhancing the comedic experience.

• Balancing Personal and Professional Life: Maintaining a balance between family and creative pursuits is crucial for sustained success and personal fulfillment in the arts.

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This episode provides a profound exploration of the interplay between neuroscience, psychology, and the art of comedy, offering valuable insights for creatives and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Andrew Huberman]

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where.

[Tom Segura]

We discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Tom Segura. Tom Segura is a renowned comedian, writer and director. During today's episode, we explore the neuroscience and psychology behind comedy, and we explore the creative process more generally. Tom shares his approach to capturing and developing ideas into narratives that are once funny and thought provoking. We discuss the interplay between daily life observations and larger cultural dynamics. When developing comedy routines, we spend a fair bit of time discussing the neurobiological basis of humor and what data and brain lesion patients have taught us about why we find certain ideas novel, funny or exciting. We also talk about how this relates to the activation of reward circuits in the brain and the seemingly automatic way that things are either funny or not funny to people. Suggesting that humor is like taste or smell. You really can't negotiate what works for you or what doesn't. We also discuss emotional contagion and how skilled performers like Tom become masters at reading, shifting and dancing with the collective energy of crowds, whether in small comedy clubs or large arena shows. So if you're creative or you're curious about human psychology, or if you simply love to laugh, you'll come away from today's episode having learned a ton of useful information about the creative process and human nature. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Tom Segura.

[Andrew Huberman]

Tom Segura, welcome.

[Tom Segura]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrew Huberman]

Cuz we'll let people know who don't already know. Yes, we are related to.

[Tom Segura]

Yes, we are related. People have asked me so many times the details and I, you know, I was trying to like because I learned about it obviously later that it was like my mom's great grandmother and your father's great grandmother were first cousin. They're both Basque, so northern Spain, cousins. And then, you know, generations later they moved to South America. Yours to Argentina, mine to Peru. And that's how we're cousins. Yeah, I guess distant cousins, but.

[Andrew Huberman]

And my dad was on the podcast a little while ago.

[Tom Segura]

How did that go? Because I remember we talked about him coming on.

[Andrew Huberman]

It was great. I mean he's a Theoretical physicist by training. So we got to talk about physics, but we also got to talk about life. And I learned a lot from him.

[Tom Segura]

Did you?

[Andrew Huberman]

I learned a lot about him that.

[Tom Segura]

I did that podcast.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'll send it to you. If you're ever suffering from insomnia, I.

[Tom Segura]

Would love to listen to it. He's a theoretical. I didn't even know that. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Theoristic chaos theory. And now he's into quantum Internet. Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

Jesus Christ. Where does he reside now?

[Andrew Huberman]

Northern California. Still working.

[Tom Segura]

Wow.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, 81. Still working.

[Tom Segura]

Look at our different sides of the. Your. Your dad is a theoretical physicist and my mom plays bridge.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. But you. But you can make a half. Half court shot. I saw the. The clip of you in Lethal Shooter.

[Tom Segura]

We'll put.

[Andrew Huberman]

We'll put a link to it.

[Tom Segura]

Okay.

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean, you're excellent basketball player. I'm not high level, so.

[Tom Segura]

Very high level, you know. Did you play ball growing up at all?

[Andrew Huberman]

No.

[Tom Segura]

You skateboarded?

[Andrew Huberman]

Foot sports, soccer, Skateboarding. I'm pretty coordinated with my feet.

[Tom Segura]

Well, the kid have been Argentine. You gotta give it a shot.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, every kid where I grew up played soccer.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Obsessed.

[Tom Segura]

Were you good at soccer?

[Andrew Huberman]

I was all right. Played goalie. I like playing goalie. Or fullback. I like to wait back there and just then just stick people. That was fun.

[Tom Segura]

Maybe you should got into lacrosse or something.

[Andrew Huberman]

No, I like running. I ran cross country my senior year.

[Tom Segura]

You ran cross country?

[Andrew Huberman]

I did, yeah. I was a little lighter than I am now. I'm like 210 now. I was probably 160, 170.

[Tom Segura]

Okay.

[Andrew Huberman]

But yeah, like two mile races were okay.

[Tom Segura]

I just did a 5k. Oh yeah. Two days ago. Yeah. How'd that go? I hated that. I knew I had to do it and so I just made myself. I was like, you know, you got to do it, so it's going to suck.

[Andrew Huberman]

You trained for it.

[Tom Segura]

Well, the training for me is like just get in a bunch of three mile runs. Right. So I mean, I would do them purposely at like a slow pace. Like try to stay as close to zone 2 cardio as possible just to get like used to the mileage. And then we get there because it was. It was our 5K. Like it was. I put it on with Bert and Spartan race and like it was a huge.

[Andrew Huberman]

Did a 5k shirt off.

[Tom Segura]

The whole thing, of course. What are you crazy?

[Andrew Huberman]

Weight vest, weight belly.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, sorry for dude. Yeah, he was.

[Andrew Huberman]

We give him a hard time because we're still trying to get Bert to quit drinking or reduce his drinking. I think he's reduced his drinking a little bit. Okay.

[Tom Segura]

So, yeah, we did. We did one last year in Pasadena. We did the Rose bowl. And so this time, we did Raymond James in Tampa. It was called. It's the two bears 5k. We had more than three times people sign up this year for Tampa, so we had, like, close to 8,000 people there. And, you know, Jelly Roll came out. Jason Kelsey, Tristan Wurfs, like the. A bunch of, you know, John Feliciano, like, all these football players, and fun. And it was a very fun day, a very fun event. But here's the thing. Like, the Rose bowl, the path was, like, basically through the parking lot, and then on these side roads in Pasadena, and, you know, they loop it out, and then you cross back basically across this parking lot, and you hit the 3.1 at Raymond James. I didn't know they were like, oh, there's some inclines. I'm like, yeah, all right. Did we get there? It's all in the stadium. And the only way you're running 3.1 miles in a stadium is we're running through the corridors and then up the ramp. Well, the ramp is nine stories up. I mean, you're literally one long incline, bro. So, like, you're doing, like, a quarter mile up, and then it would flatten out. Then you go down. You're like, oh, this is nice. And then you go up again.

[Andrew Huberman]

So.

[Tom Segura]

But I was just. I think when you're also running with people, you kind of get tunnel vision.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

And it, you know, you see somebody, you're like, that person's ahead of me. Like, this pig is in front of me right now.

[Andrew Huberman]

Are you competitive by nature?

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, I think so. And so, like, I would, you know, like, I definitely was like, I have to beat Bert. I have to be.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, you have to be, John.

[Tom Segura]

My friend Felician. I was like, I have to beat these guys. They're both like, you know, fucking £300. I'm definitely beating them. And so that was just, like, in my head, every time I would see, like, think of them, I was like, you just have to keep going. And then Burke got beat by a guy in a wheelchair. So that was also kind of sweet because I beat both of them. Jerry, what's up? Shout out to Jerry. I think he had a little advantage because those wheels on the way down definitely pick up some speed, but on the way up, it's pretty. Pretty badass, you know, But. But yeah. So, like, getting in those miles, like, was. Was the Just like the training for it. And it was, it was a whole thing. And I don't like running. Like, it's not, you know, there's some things you like. If you were like, let's go work out, let's go lift, I'd be like, cool. I enjoy that. I don't enjoy running, but I guess run's the best. You like running?

[Andrew Huberman]

I love working out with weights. I've been doing that since I was 16. But I love running.

[Tom Segura]

You love running?

[Andrew Huberman]

Running three times a week. A long run, a medium run and a short run.

[Tom Segura]

What's a long run?

[Andrew Huberman]

An hour, hour and a half, long and slow. Every Sunday. And then in the middle of the week, a 30 minute run faster. And then one day a week I do that kind of max heart rate, VO2 thing, you know, warm up, sprint, walk, sprint, walk, sprint walk. Sometimes on the Air Dyne bike, but usually running. Yeah, I love running. In fact, I mostly lift so that my body doesn't hurt when I run. I like being strong.

[Tom Segura]

Have you always been into this?

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, since I was about 16. I started running and I just found I could just go and go. Probably have a lot of slow twitch muscle and I'm reasonably strong. But I mean, if I train just for endurance, like if I start doing two long runs per week, I just feel like I can just go forever.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. It's probably just a genetic.

[Tom Segura]

What do you cover in that 60 to 90 minute run?

[Andrew Huberman]

Depends on how in condition I am. But, you know, you were talking about hills. When I lived in the Bay Area, used to do this run behind the Berkeley campus, the Strawberry Canyon Trail. And that's all inclined, basically winding up, winding up until you take the long cruise down. I would do that with a weight vest. If I go from there and then out to Austin and on a Sunday, and then, then I can cover a lot of distance in a 60 minute run. But if I just train on the flat, then you get kind of used to just kind of going long and slow.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So I don't know the exact distance, but it was not unusual when I was in graduate school to head out on a Sunday morning, just hydrated caffeine and do 10, 12 miles.

[Tom Segura]

Wow.

[Andrew Huberman]

But now it's probably more like six, eight. Okay, six to eight.

[Tom Segura]

But also with a weighted vest.

[Andrew Huberman]

Sometimes with a I, I use a vest. They're not a sponsor, which it's fun to always mention things that aren't a sponsor too, because I love this weight vest. It's called ne. It fits pretty snug it's not like one of these ones that looks like you're a suicide bomber or a cop or something. Yeah, it sits really close to the body. It zips up and it's got these heavy ball bearings in it. So it's only about 10 to 12 pounds. So it's not like a super heavy weight vest, but it's enough that when you take that weight vest off on a separate run, you feel like a God.

[Tom Segura]

I will say that, like, as much as I say I hate the fact that I made myself keep doing. I was doing like daily runs almost five days a week, just of like getting used to the mileage, you know, it obviously it becomes easier and then you kind of go like, okay, I can do this. But yeah, I think I get, I get a lot of like mental anxiety about the running.

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[Andrew Huberman]

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[Tom Segura]

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[Andrew Huberman]

What about the running itself? I was going to ask you whether or not it changes your mental frame so that you, I don't know, does it. Do you get ideas while you run? Do you get ideas after you run more readily or are you just cursing the thing the whole time?

[Tom Segura]

I feel like it's a goal to let my mind drift because sometimes the negative side of it is like you're doing a run and your, your mind is like, this sucks, right? And you're, you're thinking about how much time is like and that doesn't produce anything and it's not an enjoyable thing. But like if the mind goes, if you can let your mind drift, it's less about ideas. I feel like in those moments you're, you're kind of just, you're off thinking about more like life, not like, create creative thoughts, more like, you know, people and relationships and different and like, that's kind of a nice place to be because then all of a sudden you're like, oh, you know, a couple miles just went by.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. There's something to be said for these states of wordlessness where you're not constructing things in complete sentences. There's no sensory input, like through a phone or through even. I do listen to podcasts or books when I run sometimes in the long run. But there's this idea that a lot of learning and creativity is about purging all the noise. And I find that those long runs, they just kind of come out of them just feeling like a bunch of clutter just got cleared more than I had some, like, insight during the run itself.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Incidentally, 90% of the effect of exercise on improving brain function when it comes to long, slow distance work is that it raises your level of alertness and arousal so you can do really great work afterwards.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

High intensity stuff has a bunch of other effects. Brain direction, rhynotrophic factor, et cetera. But when you see like exercise improves brain function, exercise makes you smarter, exit. Most of that is by way of the way how exercise increases your level of alertness. It kind of puts you in that nice state, like, oh, now I can sit down and focus. Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

My busiest days, like sometimes I have, you know, a very busy day. If I start that day with a hard workout, I end up having no problem tackling that day.

[Andrew Huberman]

Isn't that wild?

[Tom Segura]

It is wild because, like, sometimes, like, I'll have a day where, you know, I have to arrive at my studio, let's say at 10am for something. And so, and it's just like it's going to be recordings, meetings, pitch meeting, you know, and then leave here, go to this thing. Like it's going to be the entire day. And if I get myself to the gym and I get in like a good hour lift, I come in and like, I'll notice everyone's like, you look like you're in a good mood and I'm like, yeah, feel great and I'm ready and then I'm ready for the day. But if I don't do that, it's a, it's a different experience. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

This is one of the real hidden secrets of exercise that I'm trying to make less hidden and less of a secret that Jocko clearly understands, but with his 4:30am wake ups and workouts that you're describing now is that I won't go into too much detail here because I want to ask you questions, but there's this phenomenon where when you move the large musculature of the body. So a resistance training workout, a run, probably any, any workout where you're doing some big movements or you're working hard in that workout, it triggers the release of adrenaline at levels that wake up your body, make it more willing to move.

[Tom Segura]

Yep.

[Andrew Huberman]

So people who don't have energy to exercise. Exercise gives your body energy by way of adrenaline and then that adrenaline acts on this nerve called the vagus nerve, which communicates to the areas of your brain that release dopamine and something called norepinephrine. It basically wakes your brain up also. So that morning workout that you're describing wakes up your brain and body for something like six hours by changing the neurochemical state of your body and your brain. And so it's not a surprise that when you work out before a long day, that long day goes better.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Whereas if you hit the work of the day, you know, kind of fresh, you're generating the adrenaline drink from all that stuff. This is when people feel a bit more anxious, they feel a bit more irritable, they feel a bit more tired. So this whole concept of exercise gives you energy. That's how it gives you energy. It's not caloric energy you still need to fuel, et cetera. But you're talking about neurochemical energy. It fundamentally changes the way you show up to everything else.

[Tom Segura]

The way that I always feel like is, you know, a lot of times when you wake up, you have what I would describe as like a fog. Sometimes, you know, like it's not just me. Oh yeah, yeah. So like that fog, sometimes, you know, you can, you carry it like it just, it's in the day and you're just kind of like, oh, there's this. But I always feel like that that exercise just completely wipes it out, you know, where you're like, oh, like I'm actually alert now and I don't feel that post wake up, just fog that sits there. That's my favorite thing to, to knock out.

[Andrew Huberman]

I love that I, I've got this crazy thing that I do now. You can try this. I bought a 70 pound kettlebell. It's about a third of my body weight and I have it set in the hallway. So when I get up, because I wake up really groggy really foggy. I grab that thing and I suitcase carry it to the end and back twice. And then I switch hands and I suitcase carry it back to the end and back twice. Just trying to like teach my body that it can do work right away. I, I'm careful how I do it but I find that now I wake up and I've got like, I, I think my body's anticipating that carry and so I'm more alert from go. And I was like, ah, this is, there's something because your nervous system learns to anticipate things, right?

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Is that phenomenon of setting your, your alarm clock for 7:00am you wake up at 6:59?

[Tom Segura]

Yes.

[Andrew Huberman]

What happened? Like your brain is clocking things in.

[Tom Segura]

Your system to me so many times and I always feel like that's such a bizarre like also for like I'm not a big napper. Sometimes I'll be like I'm going to lay down. Like I have a hour window before I have to go do something in a hotel. Like I'm on the road and I'll be like, well just in case I fall asleep, I'll set the alarm and I'll lay there eyes closed and I'll look as it's one minute before your brain's clocking it.

[Andrew Huberman]

There was a study a couple of years ago where when people are in rapid eye movement sleep, you're basically paralyzed. The brain is very, very active. That's the phenomenon of rapid eye movement sleep. It's a very bizarre brain state. Brain is super active, body paralyzed. But people can blink and they can show some little like facial responses. If you ask them to do simple math problems during rapid eye movement sleep, you say hey, what's two plus two? They'll, you know, blink with your, you know, wink with your right eye if it's four, wink with your other eye if it's five. You know, this kind of people can do math correctly in their sleep. They can answer not sophisticated questions, but the brain is tracking what's happening all around you. This is why taking the phone and putting it outside the room while you sleep, people sleep better. People say, oh, it's because the emfs, nobody really knows for sure, but it's because your brain is anticipating picking up the phone even while you're sleeping.

[Tom Segura]

Wow.

[Andrew Huberman]

So there's, I'm hitting with a lot of data here. But it's well known now that if you give students a test and their phone is in their bag in the room, they perform less well than if their phone is in their Bag in another room. This is true for adults, too. Your brain is tracking sort of potential movements, potential thoughts, potential actions. Like the, the way brain circuits work is to create sort of dominoes of circuit sequences. When you're up, for instance, you've gone on stage so many times to do comedy.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

As you walk out, your brain is queuing up a whole library of things related to that without you realizing it.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

It's all context dependent behavior. And when you get home, it's a different set of context dependent behavior. So your brain is, is. It's sort of like a magic library. I was thinking of this, like, as you get to a particular idea or thought or emotional state, the books change right in front of you to kind of match the set of things that you expect. So if your phone is in the room, your brain is operating that way even if you're asleep.

[Tom Segura]

That's insane.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. What's your writing process? Let's talk about comedy. That's. I've been, I got about a gazillion questions. I'm going to try and make them really succinct. What is your typical process of capturing. You call them bits, right?

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. For stand up. It's a bit. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

What's your typical process of capturing ideas? Like, do you. Do you voice memo into the phone? Do you write things down?

[Tom Segura]

I've done pretty much every, every version of it. Voice notes while high. Sometimes you listen to them later and you're like, holy.

[Andrew Huberman]

Are you a cannabis user?

[Tom Segura]

I mean, sometimes I'm not like a heavy user, but a lot of times at night, if you take something and you go to sleep, you're. You're trying to go to sleep, your brain's like, nah, I got ideas.

[Andrew Huberman]

Is that right?

[Tom Segura]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I haven't done cannabis since a long time ago.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then sometimes you listen because you're convinced. You're like, this is one of the most brilliant ideas.

[Andrew Huberman]

Have you ever had great ideas that stick?

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, I've had good ones that, that stick sometime. Wording's a little off, but yeah, I've had, I've had ones that I actually do enjoy afterwards. And then sometimes you're like, this is. You can hear yourself smiling, like, you know, because you can tell someone's emotion by their voice. So I can hear that. I'm like, dude.

[Andrew Huberman]

Then like, oh, because you're recording.

[Tom Segura]

I'm recording it in my, in my phone.

[Andrew Huberman]

So let me get the process. So you're heading up to sleep and you take a, like an edible yeah, this is Comedy School 101. Hey, listen, you're. You're the pro and you go to voice memos. You're there, eyes closed, and you, you start riffing on something.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, it's like you're. Yeah, it feels like it's separate from you, right? Because like the, you know, the, the right kind of, I guess, dosage of thc, it does make your mind run. And sometimes you can, you, you have less self awareness. It's just like. Right. Like the, the way I, the nice way to think about it is that your brain always puts things on a shelf for you to get through your day. Like things that make you uncomfortable even, right? Like there's things that you go, like, I don't want to think about that. And then thc, I think in the right dosage just goes, here it is. Like it puts it in front of you.

[Andrew Huberman]

Sounds terrible.

[Tom Segura]

It can be terrible, sounds awful. That can be like, often what, like too much is where you can get into like paranoia. But I think if you have a dosage that is not too strong, so it's not like uncomfortable, it just lets the mind run. It's like stream of consciousness happens. And so when that's happening, I feel like you go, oh, this is a, this is a, like, it feels like a new thought, a new or a new perspective on something. And you go, this is, it makes you laugh. You say, oh, this is an idea. I should take this on stage. Because I think for me, a lot of the thing is here's the kernel of the idea and then it's not so much I'm going to write out long form how to do it. It's like, that's the idea. Take it on stage.

[Andrew Huberman]

So you don't actually write things out full form?

[Tom Segura]

No, I don't write them out full form. And then I just go on stage with the kernel of the idea that I kind of have a blueprint of, like, well, here's what I'm sort of going to try to attack and then see what happens as I speak it. Because the other way that I like. My favorite way to write comedy for standup is through is conversations. In other words, we're talking and I say something and I either go like, oh, I should say that on stage, or I just find that I'm naturally riffing on it and like making you laugh. And then I go, I should try that on stage. Because everything is like, it's either it's funny here, is it funny there. That's kind of like how your mind Operates right. Like I. This is funny in this context. Is it funny in the performing context?

[Andrew Huberman]

But when you're trying new material, you're not doing that for a Netflix special, you're doing that and it's the term working out. Like you go, yeah, you work. Go to the comedy club on a Tuesday night and you're, you're working out, trying new material, seeing how it lands. You've never. Is what you're saying that you've never actually built out the, the bit. You're building it out in real time.

[Tom Segura]

In real time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa.

[Andrew Huberman]

Is that typical of. Of.

[Tom Segura]

I think there's like, there's different, you know, camps of it. Right? Like also there's different. So many different. Stand up is so popular that there's all these different styles and, and like, you know, there's like set up punch guys, like what you would call almost like pure joke writers. Sam Morrill, David, tell Mark Norman. Those guys, I feel like, do they do a lot of like here is a. It's. It's the economy of words. It's like clear premise set up, up and then boom, punchline.

[Andrew Huberman]

So it'd be like, like I'm thinking about Norman, right. I won't try and do one of his jokes, but I like, like Norman's comedy skateboarder too. Same non biological first family. So he. I've heard him do things like. So my wife and I were on vacation recently. This kind of thing, like a setup where it's very clear. I mean, he clearly knows where he's going with this. Yeah. On vacation and we picking out rooms and then, and then at some point there's a, there's a punchline pivot.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

Okay.

[Tom Segura]

So there's a. Like some of those are. Especially when you, when you feel like they're quite short. If it's like a. It's like over quickly. That's gonna. A lot of times be something that you knew. I'm gonna say it exactly like this. It's like the most traditional form of a joke. Here's the setup, here's the punchline. And like I've written jokes like that in, in stand up, but I do a lot more, you know, long form, I think, like storytelling stuff. And so, you know, to write that all out, I feel like you almost, you almost get in your own way because you're just like you, you. Because then what happens is what you write and what you say that it's never quite the same. So you, you kind of go through what you think is funny. About what happened. And then you take that on stage. And then you take that on stage in a. Maybe in a room with like 80 or 100 people. And then, you know, that's the nice thing about stand up is you learn right away if that is funny or not. Like, people are laughing hard and you're like. And that's what's such a rush, because you go, this was an idea. This thing happened. You try it. It works. It's like. It's a really euphoric feeling. And then if it doesn't, you know, that's when, like, kind of the. I guess, like the. The real work of it comes in. Because then you're trying to figure out. You're like. Especially if you're, like, married to the idea. If you're like, this money. But it didn't work. So then you start thinking about, did I? Is there not enough information for it to work? Is that the problem? Is there too much? Because we always say, like, trim the fat. Like, if you. If you have too much stuff in there, that is not getting laughs. It's like, maybe just omit some of this information, right? So that becomes like, okay, I'll go back, and instead of saying, this is, like, useless information. It's not adding to what's funny or whatever, it's not adding to the story I'm telling you. You start dropping that. And so you. You start experimenting. And then. And then sometimes you just get into like, okay, is the actual line that I'm saying the problem Is it. Is it that that's not a good enough joke line? And then you start experimenting with that, and then sometimes you figure it out, which is, again, like, such an amazing feeling where you go, this used to not work and now it works. And then sometimes you just got to go, fuck, man. This just doesn't work. You just have to abandon it. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

If something works or you feel like it's beginning, it's the start of a thread that could work. Do you end up writing it down for later? Like. Like, you're cueing yourself, like, you know, the. The walk with my son bit or something like that. Or it's just. Or it's all in your head.

[Tom Segura]

Well, you. You kind of have it all in your head. And then I was going to show you, like, I have this. That's. I'll look at this, like, before I go on stage, right?

[Andrew Huberman]

Which is like Tom showing me. We can get a photo of this if he lets us. It's. It's a bunch of Sharpie written single Words.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. Git. Mo.

[Andrew Huberman]

Teacher. Duck. Huberman. Just kidding. Augusta. Kill my wife.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, it's like, so those, like, Hitler.

[Andrew Huberman]

Tunisia makes. This is amazing.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's a. That's a set list for the. For an hour.

[Andrew Huberman]

If you think about the. The range of things in this relatively short list.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

As a partial representation of what goes on in Tom Segura's brain, you get a lot.

[Tom Segura]

Well, what's interesting is, like, I. Another way, like, I think comedians would look at it is you kind of start to go, these are 15 minute chunks. Because when you do an hour, a lot of comics think of it as 4 or 15 minute chunks, right? So you go like, okay, this is kind of like setting the table chunk. This is like a kid's family chunk. This is, you know, commentary on social issues or, like, things that I'm doing or consuming. And then your last chunk is like, I always feel like you want to get into, like, your. Some of your more, I don't know, Wilder takes, like, after the audience has gotten to know you and, like, trusts you, they're like, okay. So that way you can kind of, like, push it more the further into the set you are. Yeah. So you just kind of break it down.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. Very different. But I've done some lives, and I have a, you know, four things I'm going to cover, and then. But I don't know how I'm going to cover them. Jordan Peterson, when he goes out for his lives, I've been to them. He literally explores a topic in real time, walking back and forth across the stage for the first time. I know this because people verify that every night he does something different. Even the same city.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

He's exploring it completely in real time. And then other people's lives that I've been to, it's clear, it's pretty scripted. They know exactly what they're going to say, and when they have a sequence, they have slides. And so I think it can be done any different number of ways. How long do you go during your waking hours without making or thinking of a joke?

[Tom Segura]

You know, that's a good question. I really feel like when you asked me that question, do you know, the first person that I think of is actually Rick Rubin. And this is why I was. I remember reading that book. He put out Creative act, and he was like, there's something about. I'm paraphrasing here, but about, like, having your antenna up. Like, in other words, you still put out some part of you puts out the signal. So to speak, that you're not, like, going, I need to find something funny. But you're. You're putting your brain in the mode of that. Right. And you can also choose not to. And I think there's times where you go, like, oh, wow, I haven't thought of any. Like, I haven't looked at anything with, like, a humorous perspective today or for whatever, however many hours. And it's almost like that can shift either by you consciously making an effort to do it or by the company you keep. Because, like, obviously, if you're hanging out with comedians, people, it's like just by being around them, your brain just shifts to, like, joke mode. You know what I mean? Like, you're just. You're thinking in turn in those terms. Or if you're working on something, like, you're right, like writing a script or something, your brain is, like, actively. Even when you're not trying to. It's like thinking of that story and thinking of jokes for the story. So the answer is, like, you know, depending on the day, it can be like, all day. You're just, like, joking, joking, joking. And, like, you're just, in my case, like, you know, saying mostly, like, awful things. Because that's what makes me laugh, I think.

[Andrew Huberman]

You know what I mean?

[Tom Segura]

Like, whether it's with friends or family, just like, trying to make yourself laugh, really. And then there's days where it's like, you know, you're in, like, a completely serious mindset where you're like, nothing humorous is occurring to me at all.

[Andrew Huberman]

You happen to be married to a comedian.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Which probably helps your home life in the sense that, you know. Has she ever been offended by one of your jokes?

[Tom Segura]

You know, early on, I remember, like, we would have conversations where I was. I. I more. It was more like the fact that I would. I remember, I'd pitch, like, a joke idea and she would be like, that's awful. And. And then I would. I told her, I go, you know, whenever you think something is awful, I know it's going to be good on stage.

[Andrew Huberman]

Like.

[Tom Segura]

And she was like. She was like, that's horrible to say. I was like, no, it's true. Like, if. If you have disdain for what I said, then I'm pretty confident that it's going to work. And it was kind of like that. But. But no, for the most part, no. And she says wildly inappropriate and crazy funny things, like, often way over my line. You know what I mean? Not where I'm offended, but I'm like, jesus Christ. Like, yeah, she Says crazy. Really crazy.

[Andrew Huberman]

Has she ever offended you to the point where you're like, you. You can't tell that joke in public. Our family will suffer.

[Tom Segura]

No, I've never had. We've never had that conversation. Sometimes we have what makes this joke digestible conversations. We're like, we talk about a bit and we're like. And then this is. The punchline is like, in this world. And it's like, okay, you gotta find a way to say that that is gonna be digestible to the. To like. So you actually look for, like, your own advantage. What I mean is like, you know, as a woman, I go like, you can on women harder because you're a woman. So, like, you should find your way into that bit from the perspective that, like, you're actually, you know, I mean, like, you're actually. Because, like, if you're a woman, you can. It's like a black comic can talk about black people, right? Like, that's it. You're talking about your own. So, like, we'll talk about things like that. Like, you can. You can take this angle and then that. And then the joke becomes digestible. So we'll talk about, like, reframing material. And then to me, she's like, yeah, you're just a white guy. You can. Apparently, you guys can say anything.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, yeah, really. On the other hand, comedians and what's allowed in comedy at a given time has a powerful influence on culture. Yeah. What you can say, what you can't say. Has any comedian ever been canceled for what they said as part of a bit? I mean, we've got these examples of these. I consider them kind of sad instances where people kind of break down on stage, have an interaction with someone in the audience, and it really hurts their career and it's super offensive. But that's clearly not part of the bit, right? Has a comedian ever been canceled for, like, here was the bit and they're done.

[Tom Segura]

I don't. I can't tell you that. It comes to, like, the top of my head thinking about that. I know there's been like. I remember there's a Canadian comic book that in Canada has some, like, bizarre, to my experience, free speech rules.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, okay. I think it's like, comics. I was like, I always knew of Canadians as so, you know, kind of kind and well behaved.

[Tom Segura]

They have some amazing comedians.

[Andrew Huberman]

They also have some crazy serial killer stories up there, I discovered. So.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. I mean, this idea that Canada is just all like, nicer, nicer Americans is not true.

[Tom Segura]

No, no, they're wonderful.

[Andrew Huberman]

Canadians.

[Tom Segura]

But.

[Andrew Huberman]

But they're not all nice.

[Tom Segura]

No, for sure they're not all nice. No, there's some real fucking pricks up there. Yeah, I've met a few. But there's all. There's a amazing. I mean, you know, obviously you think of, like, Norm MacDonald and Mike Myers, Ian Bag, like, all these. There's really, really funny Canadian comics. But I remember that there was not too long ago. I'm sure we could find it. There's a Canadian comic that, like, he. He went after some woman in the crowd, like, you know, shut her down, said something offensive, whatever, and he got arrested, you know, had. And, like.

[Andrew Huberman]

Arrested.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, yeah, arrested and had to pay, like, substantial fines.

[Andrew Huberman]

It's like Lenny Bruce days.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. It's really crazy. And this was not. I don't mean, like, 25 years ago. I mean, like, sometime in the last five years.

[Andrew Huberman]

Whoa.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. So that I know there. There are rules on. So that's, like, the first thing that I think of when you. When you. When you say that. I also just don't feel like when people talk about, you know, like, cancel culture with comedians or like, Elon's stupid make comedy legal again, goofy that he said, it's like, what are you talking about? Like, there is no. You can say whatever you want to say. The thing you're pointing. The thing you're really trying to talk about is the fact that, like, people react and you know about it. Right. Like, 30 years ago, there were people that hated, I'm sure, Robin Williams and, you know, Carlin. Like, they hated them. The difference is they would just tell their friend, and if they really wanted to make a point, they'd get a pen and a paper and buy a stamp and mail them a letter. Like, now you have social media platforms and people can make videos and, like, go crazy and you just hear the noise. But that's not like humanity has changed. You just hear people telling you that they don't like what you did or that they don't think you're funny or whatever. It's not like they didn't. That didn't exist before.

[Andrew Huberman]

But that's also because. Thanks in large part to Rogan, but to others as well, most comedians seem to control the venues in which they release their information. Podcasts, yeah, you know, I guess you could be thrown out of a club and not be able to present your material there, but there's probably another one that you could open up, and that's happened, too.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

But podcasts, people will now release their own specials where, you know, it's pay to view, there's Netflix, there's. There are a bunch of different venues where it doesn't seem like comedy is, is as centralized anymore, controlled by the major media houses.

[Tom Segura]

That is true. It's in complete control of the comedians themselves. Like you are. You can put up clips of you doing stand up, you can make skits, you can do short films, you can do whatever and you can release it and, and find an audience like they say, you know, like make. Have an audience come to you. But I just don't buy this whole thing that like, you know, you can't, you can't joke about that. You can joke about whatever you want.

[Andrew Huberman]

Man, but not at work. I mean if you, if someone makes a joke or repeats a joke. Oh well, in let's say an academic setting for instance, or the office place.

[Tom Segura]

No, your guys world is the worst when it comes to that. The academic world is actually, it's interesting.

[Andrew Huberman]

In the last five to eight years the academic world has actually from this around, this topic has become safer because the rules are very clear. They're what I call thick black lines. Right. It's when things are murky that people got themselves in trouble.

[Tom Segura]

Sure.

[Andrew Huberman]

Right. So if you look 10 years back, it was really complicated. Now everyone kind of knows what the standard is. Might be uncomfortable for some, not for others, but they know what the standard is. It's very easy to adhere to a standard if you know where the fences are.

[Tom Segura]

Sure.

[Andrew Huberman]

Where it seems to be still murky is in the workplace, like in the boardroom. You'll hear about, you know, like tech companies or in finance or startups. Right. Because startups when they're small typically don't have an HR department. The HR department is kind of the standards that you create around the, you know, the office, which could be a garage. Right. So that's typically when, when things aren't well defined is when there are problems. So yes, it's rigid in certain areas like academia, law offices, etc, but everyone knows what the rules are. Yeah, I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying you know what they are.

[Tom Segura]

But I feel like we're talking about in comedy as a profession, like you know, the. You can joke about whatever you want, dude, but you can't dictate is how people will react to it. And if you're, if you're trying to say like, because some comedians do this, where they go, this was the joke and what I'm mad about and what I'm going to be vocal about and complain about is that not everybody liked it. You're like, yeah, that's not. I mean, that's essentially what they're doing, right? They throw a tantrum over the fact that some people are upset at the joke. You're like, yeah, that's how it goes. Like, either it goes really well or it doesn't. And if you can't go, oh, see, I can't joke about stuff because look how they reacted. You're like, that's. That's how this works. Like, what you can also do is completely ignore that. And if you want double down on your joke, keep going, do a crazier version of your joke, but just be prepared that not everyone's going to go, that was the greatest thing ever. And that's what some comics do, is they go, I can't believe not everybody is applauding me on this thing. They'll liken it to cancel culture. Which is insane, right?

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. You have to be a professional. And part of being a professional is how it lands is as important as.

[Tom Segura]

You just have no say in that.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'm always fascinated by comics who will smirk or laugh a little bit at their own joke. And assuming that certain jokes and bits work exceptionally well and you carry them forward from trying it out to Netflix specials or big venues. Huge. You do huge venues. You and murder. Huge venues. Do you ever get tired of the material and worry that your response is not going to. That your amusement won't be there and therefore they won't respond to it? This is two questions woven. I'm realizing, do you think your own amusement with a joke has an impact on how it lands? That's question one. And woven in with that is how do you then work with the idea that every time you tell a joke, it might not be as funny as the previous time?

[Tom Segura]

No. Those are great questions. Yeah. I feel like if I'm smirking or laughing at a joke of mine, it's probably organic. I don't try to manufacture one. You still want to enjoy the process of performing it. And when you lose that enjoyment of performing it, I do think the audience knows on, like, an unspoken level, there's something about it that doesn't come across the same way. And, yeah, you. You sense it. And I think typically what happens, what's happened to me over time is if you're on tour and you're kind of like, your brain is like walking up to this bit, like, you, you know it's next, and you start to, like, internally go like, ah, this bit like, what happens naturally is you start to drop it and it's, you're, you're essentially listening to yourself. It's one of those, it's like the same way you go, I should, I don't like this person, right? You go, like, I don't think I want to be friends with this person. You, you kind of like don't return a text or you go, I'm not going to hang out with you.

[Andrew Huberman]

Slow exit.

[Tom Segura]

It's a slow exit. And what happens is you drop it. And the great thing about dropping it is your brain goes, hey, you have room for something now. And that room for something also prompts your brain to start thinking of new things. That's how you kind of come up with new material. Is that you. But you have to. This is the danger, by the way, of these comedians. Sometimes there's these comics who are like really funny, really talented people and they'll do, they'll have a 20 minute set, right? Like you'll, you'll be working in clubs and you see them do a 20 minute set and it then they murder, right? They kill so hard. And then like five years later you see them and they're doing that 20 minute set. And what happens is it's like a very natural thing that you just have to deal with is they have this great fear of not killing that hard anymore. So they don't stop doing that 20 minutes. And by not stopping, they just stop evolving and they stop creating and they, they're just like, they're the, they're the 20 minute set guy. You go like, yeah, they have that great 20 minutes and then it starts to get dated. And then, you know, I mean it, it's exactly.

[Andrew Huberman]

Only a fraction of the audience will know it on time. There was a song that was like the song for a summer you could replace with any like a song for a summer way back when. Yeah, everywhere.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And then the band just disappears because the one hit wonder phenomenon you have.

[Tom Segura]

You have to like. Because you'll see the bet. The very best comics will do this. And like, it's kind of something you have to wrap your head around. But then you, once you do this long enough, you go like, oh shit. The. But the most elite comics are completely willing to bomb at these workout shows. Not like at their huge show, but at workout shows. Super elite comics will go up there and be like, I'm just gonna do. Because they know that you have to be willing to eat shit to come up with something really good. And sometimes you'll watch them like, bomb. And your own insecurities flare up. You're like, oh, my God, this is hor. Like, I can't believe, like, all these people are going to be like, you suck. You know, and these guys don't care. They don't care because they know that's. They know you have to train to get stronger, basically.

[Andrew Huberman]

So beautiful. Yeah. You know, when Josh Waitzkin was on this podcast, and he. He also did a conversation with Rogan, which is different. And if somebody's interested in this stuff, they should check out both because they're complimentary conversations. But Joshua is this child prodigy chess champion and then went on to do a bunch of other things at extremely high level. He talks about the need and his lack of fear, which is very admirable for cutting ties with your previous self. Just being willing to say, you know what? Like, that was a NBA championship. He works with the Boston Celtics. So this is very relevant right now. Or. But that was last year. We're a new team now. We're not the defending champions.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Or musician had a platinum album. Or. Or this was a particularly successful podcast run and just cut ties with it and be willing to just go completely now and future. You mentioned Rick. One of the things that I've benefited so much from being friends with Rick, in addition to the fact that I just adore the guy, is that he has so many stories about things from the past, if you ask him. But he never brings that stuff up. You know, he'll. He'll indulge you. If you say, tell me a story about Joe Strummer or something, he'll tell me. But he really lives now and forward.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And I think it's. Wait Skin that says, you know, you want. You don't want to be on the train of life. You want to be strapped to the front end, you know, experiencing space and time as it's unfolding, which is a very philosophical way to put this. But that challenge of cutting ties with your previous self, to continue to evolve your craft is so hard, but it's exactly what you're describing.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, like, I had this rule. I had this rule early on that I think I was. I was just lucky that I told myself this, which is that I recorded an album, I think, in 2010, and, you know, I. You kind of want to get, like, a special and a deal, but I didn't have one. So I recorded an album, and I put out the album. And at that time, you know, people are buying these comedy albums, and you start starting to stream stuff. And also physical copies are still a thing because this is like 2010. And so this was my work. Like I. From when I started Stand up to this album, this was like the best I could do, right? This was all the, all my best stand up. And I put it out and like, yeah, I mean I had some marginal success with it. Like I was selling a lot of copies or whatever. Well, I told myself that even though I was not a ticket selling comedian, that everybody who was at a show had heard that album like that they all knew it, which was completely not true. But by doing that to myself, it made me go, well, I need a new hour, right? So that I was lucky that I thought that way because I could have stayed doing a lot of that album because those were like really like really worked out bits that would just crush. But I was just like, I'll. I knew that like I wouldn't move on and evolve if I just kept doing them. And that was the thing that I. And then I. The next thing I did was another album and I did that again. I was just like, I gotta like drop this stuff and move on. And that's, I think what helped me and a bunch of other comics who like, now we're in the practice of like shooting specials and then you just drop all of it and you go back to square one. But like that helps you to continue being creative in, in standup you have to just drop stuff.

[Andrew Huberman]

I love it. I think this pertains to so many, basically all creative forms.

[Tom Segura]

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[Andrew Huberman]

The finding the material humorous or being excited about the material being crucial to how it lands with the audience. I'm going to make this very brief. When I was an undergraduate, I was interested in what makes something funny, the psychology and neuroscience of humor. And there wasn't a whole lot of neuroscience on it at that time. But the basic takeaway from the literature, as I recall, was that the listener thinks that a narrative is going one way and then there's this surprise element, something you didn't anticipate coming. I think that characterizes a lot of bits and a lot of jokes.

[Tom Segura]

100%.

[Andrew Huberman]

Whoa. It's the pop. However, I've also seen you do bits and other people do bits where you're headed down a trail. And I'm thinking, oh, no, he's not going there, is he? And you go there, and that's hysterical also.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So is there a name for this or how does it work?

[Tom Segura]

No, I think. I mean, I. You're right. So the. The most basic necessity for, I think, comedy at a very baseline level to explain it or, you know, define it, is the element of surprise. Right. The surprise is like. So it's that thing. If you go, I know where this is going. You're not going to react the same way. If it gets you. It's, oh, my God. But that second description of like, is that person going somewhere? I think that satisfies something in human beings, which is somebody saying the thing that we all want to say, and you can't say it. You can't say it. You can't say it in polite society. You can't say it at a. At a nice dinner function. You can't say it at work. And you're just like, God, this is what I think. And, you know, other people think it. And then the guy's up there and he's going like, hey, you want to hear some shit? Like, somebody says it and everyone goes, this is. It becomes a release. It's a release of like, oh, he's saying the thing that we all wish we could say. And you're saying it. You know, it's. It's a very particular thing because it. It actually is. It works because you're in that building too. It's. It works because you're. You all have the unspoken agreement that this is a place to do this in, right? It's still different. Like, if I just walk up to you on the street and start saying that, you're like, jesus Christ, dude, like, you're a psycho. Yeah. It's like. But like, in this context. So both things are. Satisfy something. I think in the in the humor realm. Right. The element of surprise will always be something like the unexpected. But there's also this, like, condition I think we live with where we go. We all think this, but we can't say it. And that. That's a very satisfying thing when somebody says it.

[Andrew Huberman]

Well, I. It had the great benefit of getting a sneak peek at Bad Thoughts. Oh, yeah. And it's amazing. People should definitely check it out. And I don't want to give anything away, but the second one in the sequence that I watched, I thought, there's no way he's doing this. And it just kept coming at me. I was like, there's no way. Went to sleep last night, and this hasn't happened to me in a long time. I woke up laughing.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Which is a wonderful experience.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

There are only a few states of mind and body that. That you wake up and you're like, well, that was amazing. You know, and I woke up laughing. So it's heated into my unconscious. So now I'm worried. I'm going to say some of the things that you said.

[Tom Segura]

I hope you do.

[Andrew Huberman]

But one thing that occurred to me in watching Bad Thoughts is that you're not just a phenomenal comedian, but you're also a really good actor.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, thank you.

[Andrew Huberman]

And a number of comedians seem able to act, which is surprising to me for reasons that don't make any sense to me. But no, you know, if you look at. Athletes often are terrible actors.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean, some of the best acting that. That athletes have done is when they're playing kind of a buffoon or they're. They're supposed to not be able to act. Well, I think of something like the naked gun movies. O.J.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean, he's not a good actor.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And it worked because he wasn't a good actor.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

But you're a very good actor.

[Tom Segura]

Thank you.

[Andrew Huberman]

Like, did you train for it?

[Tom Segura]

I loved making people laugh. And the first thing I did, like, in performing was, you know, I did like, a play as a kid. I did an improv troupe at 14, which is pretty young to be in an improv troupe. I did that for, like, a summer. And my whole thing was I wanted to make movies. Like, I had a plan. When I was in college, I would. I worked. I had the communications track. So we would do tv, radio production. And when we had video projects, I would always do, like, comedy things. And everybody would be like, what are you doing? Why are you making this? Like, you're supposed to be making, like, a. A video about the soccer program, you know, And I'm like. I was like, this is about, like this capsule you put in your ass and it freezes your. Like, I would make like, diarrhea commercials and they're like, don't do that. But this is the stuff that would make. I was like, making me laugh and I wanted to make movies, and I just was like, you know, that was what I wanted to do. And then I moved out here and I. I had learned. I knew that at the time, some of these big comedy movie people.

[Andrew Huberman]

Were.

[Tom Segura]

A product of snl and that those people were usually products of Second City or the Groundlings. And since I moved to la, the Groundlings were big in la. The. It's an improv school and a performance plug. They put on shows. I was like, that's what I'll do. I'll just go to the. To the Groundlings. And I took some classes there and I got through a few levels, but I got into stand up shortly thereafter that some of my improv friends were like, you should try stand up. And I got so hooked by stand up. And I also saw a path because I was also like, well, you have to make a living, right? And the actor's life to me is so unsettling with, like, you're on a show and then they're like, I don't have a gig anymore. Like, to me, the fact that stand up, even though it's very, very, very low pay, especially like, as you're getting into it, the fact that you can just like, keep doing it, like, to me, like, made sense. It, like, soothed me. And I. I feel like, you know, I kind of stopped training as far as I did another acting class in LA at that time, like, early on. But I. I always just wanted to keep doing it, you know, and so every once in a while I would make like a short film. Like, I made a few short films with friends or like, you know, comedy. Comedy shorts. And I auditioned for some things. You know, I did small parts here and there, but I never really got to do all the. The types of things I wanted to do. So this show became like this incredible opportunity where I was like, where are we going to tell this type of story? This type of story? Like, because it's essentially a collection of short stories is what the show is, right? And some of them are self contained, some of them are two part, three part. But it allowed me as an actor to play all these different roles, which was like, so fun. It felt like I was doing like 20, like the 20 years. I didn't really act that much. I got to, like, throw in all these different characters in the show.

[Andrew Huberman]

Well, you're a very fine actor.

[Tom Segura]

Thank you.

[Andrew Huberman]

As they say. It was. I was like, oh, he's acting. He's. This isn't just, you know, stand up.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

You know, stand up. As its own thing in previous Netflix specials. But I've also seen you do these in these bits in smaller clubs, like at the Belly up and Aspen.

[Tom Segura]

That's right.

[Andrew Huberman]

Smaller place.

[Tom Segura]

That's right.

[Andrew Huberman]

Where we just coincidentally wore the exact same clothing. So we're same flannel, same jeans, same Adidas. That was really weird.

[Tom Segura]

That's DNA, dude.

[Andrew Huberman]

Not coordinate. That's DNA.

[Tom Segura]

That's DNA.

[Andrew Huberman]

That's DNA. And the cosmic correspondence of the butterfly.

[Tom Segura]

Effect.

[Andrew Huberman]

My dad was trying to explain to me at one point, point, you do voices very well. In particular, the voices of your kids. I always think that when somebody impersonates somebody else, it's about grabbing the key elements, like, not the whole piece. They don't, like, turn around and come back, as some people can just grab a few key elements of somebody. In this case, someone we've never met. It was your sons, and we feel like we know them, and we're getting that, like, what clearly are key features of their personality coming through. Do you practice those, or you just observe and it just is kind of embedded in you?

[Tom Segura]

I think it's observed and embedded. And I think in that case in particular, because with your kids, there's this thing that happens where you talk about your kids a lot, not on stage. In other words, you know, I'm talking to my sisters or I'm talking to a friend about the kids. So you're. You're kind of like. You get this extra practice about them because they are so much something that people always are like, how are your kids? Right? And so you're just like, oh, I got home, this little came in. He was like, hey, pick me up. You know, like. Like. So you start, like, doing impression.

[Andrew Huberman]

Is that.

[Tom Segura]

That's the little guy?

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, yeah. He sounds like a piece of work.

[Tom Segura]

He is a piece of work, dude. He is something else. He's like. It's so funny. We call. Sometimes we call him Little Joe Pesci because he's just like, what the. We're like, yo, man. Like, I don't say that.

He's six.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, my goodness.

[Tom Segura]

He's six. And he's like, he's with me all day, dad.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'm like, talking about from you or from your Wife.

[Tom Segura]

I feel like it's more her. I feel like she's got those.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'll have to ask.

[Tom Segura]

She's got those Hungarian roots where they. Like, when I was a kid, in our house.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

There was not a lot of cursing, dude.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, no. I'd get whacked if I. Oh, yeah, no, no. I hit. But, you know, I think if I talk back. Yeah. It only happened twice in my life.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I spoke back. I won't say to which parent. And I got hit.

[Tom Segura]

Okay.

[Andrew Huberman]

Nowadays, people are like, oh, he was beaten up. I'm fine.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Okay. I didn't. I don't swear at people.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Very often. It's an extreme circumstance.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So. Okay, so. But he swears all the time, apparently, dude.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, to the point where we're. I mean, like, I know people. Whenever you talk about this, people are like, you're a bad dad. I'm like, just shut the up. Like, you've never been around. Like, these boys are. I have two little wild dudes. They're. By the way, I always share stories of the. Of, like, extremes. Like, they're sweet, adorable, loving, wonderful kids. Right? But they're just two little dudes who, like, I come home and they're like torture time. Like, they call it torture time where, like, I lay down and then they just get to like, me up. And then they'll think they're stronger than me. And I'm like, bro, like, let me. Do you want to feel this? And I just put them in like some crazy, you know, rap where they. They go, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm like, yeah, like, how old? The older one, he's nine. He's nine, dude. I get home every day, he's like, check this out. He takes off his shirt and he's like. He flexes.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, yeah.

[Tom Segura]

He's like, I'm gonna be so jacked by high school. I'm like, yeah, yes, probably. And he's lean. Like, he's got, like, he's got the. The body for it. He's going to, like. We go to the park and he's just sitting there doing pull ups. And he'll bring weights, he'll bring weights to the park and you see, like, other kids. Dude, that's like.

[Andrew Huberman]

To start, there's an Instagram account of this guy. I'll dig it up for the. For the captions. His daughter's probably 11, and she's doing pull ups with a 45 pound plate and ankle weights strapped to her waist.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

[Andrew Huberman]

And she's doing pull Ups to the chest. And she's not, you know, built yet. She's clearly before puberty, and she's just. But just cool, cool. I'm like, oh, my goodness. That. You just imagine, like, the tendon strength, the joint strength gonna be. Yeah. Little gymnast, perh.

[Tom Segura]

He. He's so into it. Talking about six packs. Feel like I could have a six pack soon. I'm like, yeah, sure, keep going, man. He goes, why don't you have one? Like, just fucking.

[Andrew Huberman]

He's already busting your balls. You told me a story once over dinner about your son learning piano. I don't know if you remember that. I think it was the younger one, and it was something like, you know, like, how's piano going? And you're like. And. And here you're saying. He goes, it fucking sucks. You know, like, that's. It sounds like that's his response. He's just. Dude, he's ready to pop back all the time, always.

[Tom Segura]

No, he's completely read. The funniest thing that he did recently was we've. They both go to jiu jitsu, okay? And the older one's really thriving. Like, he's. He has a skill for it. You know, he's. And he's doing it well, moving up. And the younger guy, I mean, you know, he's like a puppy. Like, just a little. Started when he was five. Like, they're just. It's just different, right? You're pretty young. And so we're. We're at class. And he goes, I'm not doing this anymore. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, I'm too busy, man. And I go, what? He goes. He goes, my schedule. I go, your schedule? I go, okay, tell. Tell the instructor. So that guy comes over, you know, and he goes, hey, how. You know. How'd you enjoy class today, Julian? And he was like, good, but I'm done. He goes, what do you mean, you're done? And he goes, I'm too busy, man. He's like, what are you. What are you too busy with? He goes, I have kindergarten. I have Spanish. I have drums. I don't have time for this. And I go, I'm sitting there like, this is insane. And that guy goes, but you know what? You got to be strong in this world, don't you? And he goes, yeah. He goes, yeah, there's no option for being strong, so. Because you can't have the option to not be strong, right? And then Julian's like, that's right. He's like, great. So I'll see you Thursday. And he goes, I told you, I'm way too busy. And then he just was like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm like, okay, dude. So he's done. I mean, I also, like, he can.

[Andrew Huberman]

Really advocate for himself.

[Tom Segura]

He definitely advocates for himself. I just, I've never been the, you know, the type where, like, you have to do these, like. I feel like the fun thing about a kid, boy or girl, with sports is expose them to a lot of sports. And I don't want to, like, like, you know, go, you have to do these. Like, whatever sport you like, you can do that one. Clearly, like, this wasn't the one that drew him in enough. And I'm totally fine with it. It's like, cool. You want to try tennis, you want to try soccer, you want, like, I'll let them try all the sports. I. I want them to be in activities, but I'm not gonna be like, you have to do all these sports, you know?

[Andrew Huberman]

Meanwhile, they're becoming comics in their. In their mind.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, they're. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Both parents are comics.

[Tom Segura]

They're funny dudes. They are very funny. Yeah. And they love to laugh. And it's fun because you see kids, when a kid says something that's genuinely funny and you start laughing, you see that look in their eye. They're like, oh, that's cool. They just try to do it again, and if they do it too much, you're like, yeah, it's not funny anymore. You can't do it that much.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. That is a perfect cue for me to ask what I was going to ask earlier when we were talking about. When you are amused by something, you really delight in telling this bit. It impacts the audience and how it lands. There's a very famous patient in neuroscience, probably the most famous patient. His name is. Hm. We don't know his real name. He's dead now. But he had a lesion to his hippocampus, this brain area involved in memory. And he was studied extensively for decades. And most of what we know about human memory is from this guy. All the other stuff we know from mouse studies, a little bit from monkey studies.

[Tom Segura]

Wow.

[Andrew Huberman]

So there's a very well known study where you go in and he has no retrograde memory. He can't remember anything that, that you told him before. Like, within a matter of seconds, he forgets it completely. And they've tested this every which way. Okay.

[Tom Segura]

Holy.

[Andrew Huberman]

His brain is now in a jar. It's been scanned, et cetera. But so the. The study goes, something like this. You go in and you tell HM a joke and he laughs and he thinks it's very funny. Then you leave, you come back and he doesn't remember who you are. This has been tested again and again. He's not fibbing. Okay. And there are a number of ways that you can, you can measure this, especially if you make it sadly. Like some survival based things like, yeah, you tell him the joke again and he laughs again, but a little less. And the next time a little less and a little less. And eventually he's like, yeah, that's not really funny. Yeah, same joke. He does not remember the joke, but there seems to be some unconscious memory of the joke which I always found fascinating. So it's like, it's almost like the, that the narrative around something, we get saturated to it. We're all familiar with a friend at a dinner or party that tells a joke and everybody laughs and then they make the cardinal mistake, which is to tell the joke again at the same dinner and it just burns it. It burns it there and it burns it the previous time. So what do you. I mean, I'm not asking you to be a neurologist or a neuroscientist, but what do you think is going on here? Not necessarily an hm, the patient.

[Tom Segura]

But.

[Andrew Huberman]

But there's something about telling that funny punchline twice.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

That you just. I feel like men, like guys seem to do this more. It's like, you got it. You nailed it.

[Tom Segura]

Yes.

[Andrew Huberman]

Do not tell the joke again.

[Tom Segura]

Well, every guy thinks he can fight is funny and can drive. Those are the four things that every guy thinks he's awesome at. And you're lucky if you're marginal at one. Like every guy thinks, you know, I mean, every dude is like, I can do, I can drive, I'm hilarious. Like fight chicks. Like every guy has this thing. And then the more self aware ones go like, I'm not good at these, I'm good at this one.

[Andrew Huberman]

So I'll train.

[Tom Segura]

You know what I mean? Like that's cross train, cross train, man. You gotta do them all. But the funny thing is when you were talking about hm, what I thought you were gonna. The point you were making is that you go back in and it's not hm, that is not laughing anymore at the funny thing. It's that the person telling is that you lose something. Because there is this thing in stand up that is like a phenomena. Like I don't have the answer to, but any comedian you talk to will tell you that this is true. Where you go and you say this thing, right? It might be like your opening thing, or it could be a couple minutes in, and you say the joke, you tell the thing, and it kills. And you're like, yeah, this is awesome. You know, like, your brain just goes like, lock it in. And then the next night, you go and you say it, and it. It gets laughs, but it's like. It's a little less. And then this progresses. Like, you keep doing shows and it's like two months later, and you're like, the thing's like, not. It doesn't really work. And you go, listen to, like. Like, I think I'm saying it the same way. It's like, there's this. Like, sometimes there's this thing where it's like a. There's like a magical quality of, like, if it just streamed out of you once in this setting, in this room at this moment. There's something about the way that you said it and the timing with which you said it, that it evoked all this laughter and that for some reason, this thing no longer connects and just. It doesn't register. And you. You try to do the analysis of why that is the case, and you. You essentially just end up doing this. She's like, I don't know why, but it just stopped being funny to all new audiences. It killed over here. It doesn't work here.

[Andrew Huberman]

So interesting. I'm obsessed with mainly two things. Time perception and state changes in the human brain. Like, we know so much about REM sleep and slow wave sleep. We know very little about waking states, like alert and focused, or like, we have these terms, but there's so much more going on there. And so the question is this. We're at a club or a stadium, and you're gonna go on. But I go on first, which means my bit sucks. It just sucks because I'm not a comedian. Someone else goes on, let's say Brian Holtzman, I find very funny.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, yeah. He's good, right?

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean, when he's. When he's on, he's really on. He's very funny. Holtzman goes on and does really well.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Who do you want to follow?

[Tom Segura]

Holtzman?

[Andrew Huberman]

Because the crowd is. Is in a state of being ready to. To receive the jokes.

[Tom Segura]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like when you're. When you're newer, the. Probably the typical answer for most comedians would be, like, I want to follow the guy that didn't do well. Right? Because then, like, I can save the day. But the longer you do it, you realize that's not Actually, like, you actually want the guy in front of you to do well, even really well, because it does generate this thing of, like, this is what this is. We're at a place of doing this. It's jokes, it's fun. And, you know, we kind of. You borrow the term ride their wave. Like, that guy just created a wave. And if you can jump on it, sometimes you have to reset. You have to, like, you know, you're kind of letting the audience know this is a different thing. Especially if they, like, absolutely murder. Like, if they destroy. You're like, whoa. Like, you just kind of go, yeah, I'm a new person. And the thing is, you don't want to go, like, I'm scared that that happened. You just go, this is my thing now. You know, But. But you have them in the state of, this is. We're here to laugh. Whereas the guy who just, like, ate shit, they are all like, what the is this? And then, you know, they basically dug a hole. So then you go up there, being you're now the person that has to, like, set the table and be like, like, so I know that last thing felt like a eulogy. So now I will try to get you out of feeling the way you feel and make you understand that it's joke time. You'll often start slower by following the person that did poorly. Right. You think it's, oh, you're funny. It's now going to go, well, you have to, like, cook it back up. So following the good comic is always the better choice.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'm thinking of giving toasts at weddings.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Like, if somebody gives a really great toast, giving the next toast, you know, saying, oh, that's a hard act to follow. No, actually, it's an easy act to follow because everyone's just kind of basking in whatever just happened. Sounds. Sounds similar.

[Tom Segura]

That's right.

[Andrew Huberman]

State changes. Whether or not we're talking about running or you're talking about cannabis or you're talking about whatever it is. I mean, I. I find that so much of the creative process or the constructive process, science or comedy or whatever, is about accessing these states. And we learn how to do it through what kind of becomes an unconscious process, but you know, how to get there again and again. And so much of becoming a professional is about going through the peaks and valleys of, you know, bombing and coming back totally. You know. So I'm curious before you go out on stage now, given the size of the crowds, is just the kind of memory of what's about to happen sufficient to Put you in state.

[Tom Segura]

So the thing is, the longer you do it and the more shows you do, you've kind of performed in every state. Great. Sometimes you have to remind. I like to remind myself that I'm at my funniest and I'm. I'm the best version of myself on stage when I have a silly mindset going. Meaning, like, just. Just like. Like, goofing off. Like, being, like, being a kid almost. So if I'm backstage and I have you in there and I'm just saying, you know, I'm, like, poking you, not, like, roasting you, but, like, you know, being silly.

[Andrew Huberman]

We're related.

[Tom Segura]

I can. Yeah, just like, being silly. I feel like that mindset is, like, the best version of me to go on stage. And you can forget it, by the way. I forget it all the time, right? Because I've performed tired, upset, sad, anxious. Like, I've performed in every possible state. But I do like to. To tell myself, like, oh, yeah, don't forget. Kind of, like, get yourself into this silly state. I also like some, like, I'm kind of an introvert, right? Like, there's some. There's some true extrovert comics. Like, Buddy Bert's like, a true extrovert, and, like, his green room before a show will have, like, 80 people in it, and I'm like, what? Like, I like my green room to have either just me or, like, two or three people and like, chill energy, but still, like, it's still loose, right? It's not like, a serious thing, but, like, loose fun. And that gets me into the mindset of, like, this is gonna be fun. I look over my set list, you know, like, I. I'll check in on. You know, you listen to, like, what the crowd's like, and you're like, oh, they sound. They sound hot. Like, that kind of gets you excited. But I just try to. I try to embrace that mindset of, like, let's have, like, let's have fun. Let's have fun. That. That puts me in a. In a good place as a performer on stage.

[Andrew Huberman]

Do you watch a lot of comedy? Like, the greats? The, like, do you.

[Tom Segura]

I don't watch a lot of comedy anymore. I would say, like, I. As a kid, I mean, I think the reason you kind of follow this path is because you're. You're just such a huge fan of it. So, like, growing up, I watched a lot of the, you know, evening at the Improv Def Jam specials. Like, a lot of, you know, it was also, like, specials were truly special. Right. Because there was, like. There's like six specials maybe a year.

[Andrew Huberman]

Eddie Murphy. Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

Eddie and Chris Rock and Carlin. And like, all those guys would, like, put out a special. I mean, once every. Once few years. And there was only a few places. You know, HBO was just, like, the place. And then Comedy Central became the other play. Like, HBO was premium. Like, really elite. Like, huge, huge talent. And then Comedy Central was kind of everybody else. And then now the landscapes changed. Where, you know, we get. I don't know, man. I feel like there's 300 specials a year. Right? Like, because you can release them on. They're on Netflix, they're on Max, they're on Hulu, they're on Amazon, they're on YouTube. Like, there's just. Just. You're bombarded with. It's great in one regard for stand up, because it speaks to how popular standup is, and it's so accessible, and it's cool that so many people can put out their stuff, but it's just, like, overwhelming. So I'll only check out, like, I feel like in the last couple years, I've maybe seen, like, two specials. You know, a lot of times I'll start a special, turn it off after, like, 10 minutes. Kind of want to see, like, what someone's doing. But I find it personally hard to finish a special. But I also find it hard to watch stand up in the room, like at a club or something. Like, I get. I leave. Like, I don't mean, like, I leave the venue. I just leave the room. Like, it's just harder for me to. I feel anxious. I think it's really about me internalizing what I feel like the feeling is on stage, especially if it's not, like. If it's really good, really good, stand up, then I sit there and I go like, oh, my God. And I enjoy it. But if there's, like, any bit of it that, like, feels like maybe that's not working or that guy's anxious or whatever. It reminds me of my own feelings on stage that are like that, and I don't want to be in that space. So I, like. I get. I leave the room and I'll just go sit somewhere else.

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean, so much of what we're talking about today, I just realized, is emotional contagion. It really introduces this question. This is very reductionist thinking. But how much of the success of a bit or a joke is the emotion that the person telling it is carrying? And how much of it is the actual words and content? It's probably that plus the rhythm and the timing. There's a lot of things.

[Tom Segura]

It's a combination of those things.

[Andrew Huberman]

Emotional contagion is real. You're talking about it as a comedian watching comedy. It kind of permeates you.

[Tom Segura]

Is that what it's called? Emotional.

[Andrew Huberman]

Emotional contagion. Some people are more emotionally permeable than others. Yeah. You know, we put this on a spectrum. We could even put it on the. So what used to be called the. The autistic spectrum, like people who really contained in their emotions, like things don't get them. But people are extreme. At the far end of that spectrum, they have a sensory sensitivity. You know, kids that are really like. Like severely autistic. You know, the amount of noise in a typical room is overwhelming.

[Tom Segura]

Overwhelming. Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

They actually have discovered that that's actually outside the brain, that they. Their sensory endings are tuned differently to the world. They're experiencing the world very, very differently. You have these. Certain people get scared when they watch a movie and they jump when the monster jumps out. Other people are like less of a startle response.

[Tom Segura]

I get startled.

[Andrew Huberman]

I get startled. Yeah. I think that it's natural to get startled. I think that some people just have very kind of flat affect. And some people can kind of ride. It's like a seesaw. And for some people, the hinge is tight. It doesn't necessarily mean they're calm. Some people are just like pissed off all the time and the hinge is tight. Some people, they're happy all the time and the hinge is tight. Most people, that hinge can move. And so this thing of emotional contagion is largely. This is what's so interesting. It's largely fed through the way things sound. Somewhat through faces, but largely through the way that things sound. And then there seems to be. And not a lot's known about this yet, kind of a sixth sense where actually an energy in the room can start to literally cascade from one person to the next. And this has been studied in animals with the fear response. You can literally take an animal, scare it, take it out of that tube, put another animal in there, and it will show a fear response based on something molecular in the air.

[Tom Segura]

Really?

[Andrew Huberman]

Absolutely. And they're fair. I mean, hormones work within us. Pheromones between two members of a species. They're clearly pheromone like effects. We haven't identified what those pheromones are. Same thing can happen in crowds. You can get a kind of a hysteria.

[Tom Segura]

We do feel like, you know, the best, the best kind of experience as A comedian performing is where you feel like the audience is one, right? Like they are one. It's not 10,000 separate people. It's like this is all together. And that's kind of like when that's going as well as it can go, that is like a incredible rush. And the feeling is that, like, they. They do kind of mold. It's like they started as 10, 000 people, and then they just kind of become this one thing. And you're. You're kind of rocking this one entity out there together. Same way that, like, the opposite. When it's, like, really bad, it doesn't feel like, you know, you can feel like, oh, they're. They're together in. In not liking this. This is one crowd going like, no, you know, I mean, like, that feeling is. Is the opposite of, like, bombing beyond, like, emptiness that you feel, but you feel it like they are together. They're unified in. In how they feel about this.

[Andrew Huberman]

This is why some people, including me, fear going to theater. My sister loves theater. We go to New York in the. In the fall for our birthdays, and because she loves theater, we go to theater. And if theater is great, it's, like, amazing. If theater is bad, it leaves me feeling bad for the people. Like, the tone in the room is like, ooh, it's heavy.

[Tom Segura]

Heavy.

[Andrew Huberman]

It's not like, just, like, turn off the special. It's like, it sucks. It takes you to a lower place.

[Tom Segura]

Well, live is always. It's just such a different experience. You know what I think about? I don't know if there's any science to this, but I always sometimes think about the fact that I feel like comedy, specifically as an art form, might be the most involuntarily subjective. Meaning that, like, you know, if you look at, like, a photo or a piece of art, you might go, like, I don't like that. And then I might educate you in some way about it, and you kind of look at it differently. And then maybe over time you go, you know, I actually love this painting, right? Or, like, music is definitely one where you have, like, kind of an involuntary response. But I have not cared for music and then actually started to like it more. But I feel like comedy, it's like, it's not. You're not really thinking when you, like, when you laugh hard at something, you're not like, oh, I thought about it for a while, and I'm going to start laughing now, right? Like, you just. You laugh, and if you don't laugh, you're just like, yeah, I Don't find that funny. You don't usually come back and go, you know, now that you've talked to me about it, I'm going to start. Start laughing. Like, it really is this experience where you just happens without. So your, your kind of brain is telling you this is what's funny, right? Like, it, it's happening, like, separate from you, and there's no faking it. Like, you're either laughing or you're not. You got. If you laugh really hard, it's like this, it's this great experience. But you can't convince someone to laugh that hard.

[Andrew Huberman]

A very important point that never occurred to me. I love art history in part because I like art. I've always liked art. But by taking an art history class, I literally fallen in love with certain artists and their paintings, and I look at certain paintings completely differently now, as you point out, on the basis of what I know about what the art represents, the history of the artist. If a joke isn't funny to me or a bit isn't funny, I don't care what the process was for that bit. I'm like, it's just not funny.

[Tom Segura]

It's just not.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, it seems like it's one of the purest kind of yum, yuck or meh kind of things, which is another point of neuroscience. You know, the nervous system has degrees of this, but it basically bins things very quickly into like, yum, like this is awesome or hilarious or whatever. Yuck, like no and kind of meh. Yeah, there's not a lot of var within each one of those bins. There's a lot of variation. Love, love, love, hate, hate, hate. But then, you know, but your brain makes a decision really quickly, very young. Yuck or meh.

[Tom Segura]

Right, right. And. And like, especially with, with different arts, right? Like, I mean, literally you look at the photo and your brain kind of tells you, right. Like, I just don't feel like most of the time you're not going to go back to that and have a much different response. Right? I mean, with comedy, you're, you're not going to response with like, I also did, I did Spanish art history when I, when I was studying in Madrid and they would take us to the Prado Museum and give us like, our lectures in front of the pieces of art and you just, yeah, your brain starts to not just appreciate, you start to fall in love with the paintings and you go like, oh, I view this differently. That type of experience doesn't really. Can't happen with comedy. I'm not going to be like, start laughing, dude. Listen to how this. You know, I mean, like, it's just, just. It is what it is. Your brain, it's so quick whether or not it makes you laugh.

[Andrew Huberman]

And if something's not funny, if you tell me he toiled on this for 40 years, I'd be like, well, then it especially sucks. It's really. Whereas you show me a sculpture, I might not appreciate. You sort of explain what went into that. You can develop at least an appreciation for you that's interesting.

[Tom Segura]

You know, versions of this happen all the time, especially now, because everything's shareable where, like, your friend goes, check this out. Out, and you watch the thing and you're like, okay, isn't that the funniest thing you've ever seen? You're like, no. They're like, you didn't like that? No. And that's kind of like how it ends. They're like, yeah, but, you know, he's saying like that he's late because he. I'm like, yeah, it's not. I don't. I'm not laughing, dude. I don't have to tell you. And then they go, okay. But they had a different experience with it that you can't. You can't, like, articulate and intellectualize the experience to someone where they go, oh, yeah, now I think it's funny.

[Andrew Huberman]

Well, I think this gets back to hm and this idea that there's a subconscious, you know, just an unaware process that dictates whether or not something's funny or not.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

It tickles our brain below the level of. Of, like, precise understanding. And I'm so fascinated by this because as you point out, there just aren't other things like this. You could say this about people like, oh, liked this person right away, didn't like them.

[Tom Segura]

Yes.

[Andrew Huberman]

But in general, the more that we learn about people, this is why all the efforts to try and, you know, erase racism, for instance. The more you learn about a culture, the more you tend to like the people of that culture. Yeah. Even if you were arch enemies for, for, you know, decades or hundreds of years before, there's just the way the human brain works. But with comedy, it's like a. It's chem. It feels like it's like chemistry.

[Tom Segura]

It does.

[Andrew Huberman]

You know, and. And of course, you could say, well, you like or don't like the comic, but I have to imagine that you, whether you like it or not, probably represent the. The, like, bad boyfriend or the, the abusive dad to somebody or the. Or the friend that they loved in college. Let's make it positive too. Or the guy they like to be around. I mean, you, you don't know that people's relationship to you, you never know. And so the humor may land or not land, depending on like all sorts of unconscious stuff going on so much.

[Tom Segura]

And you realize too that like, you could have a joke about a teacher, you know, I mean, like, you're just like, it's part of your bit. You're not thinking of that. And like, like you saying that has a ripple effect that you don't realize to, to different people in the audience for, for dozens of different reasons. You could have just said the word teacher and the person's like, you know, I am a teacher. And then that, that, that's pleasing to them. They feel seen the other person hated their teacher. You know, I mean, they start thinking about like all these little things where you go, like, I just said one word about this and you don't realize that it, it, it triggers other thoughts in people's minds, you know?

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[Andrew Huberman]

Let's talk about crowd work.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Fascinated by it. Very, very distinct aspect of the comedy experience. You know, I mean, at a big rock concert, I mean, the singer might, like, put out a fist to someone in the audience or even let somebody sing for a moment, but maybe let someone up on stage. But crowd work is like, you're really giving up a lot of control, right? If you ask a question, I mean, you have to be able to work off whatever comes back. Do you do crowd work?

[Tom Segura]

I mean, I. I feel like crowd work is just part of the arsenal of skills you have over time as a community. You have to be able to improvise, you have to be able to handle crowd work, you have to be able to write material. You have, you know, you have to be able to do all those things. I don't go up and do, like, crowd work shows. Like, some people, they're like, this is a crowd work show. But I've been doing stand up, like, you know, know 23 years. And especially when you're in the club system, when you're an unknown and you're just doing weekends and people are drunk, like, crowdworks just becomes part of how you do it. Like, you don't have an option to not. You could just not develop the skill set and then just die up there. But, like, you know, I mean, it's like, it's a necessity. So at this point, like, I feel like I want to go on stage with, like, I want to do xyz, I want to execute these things. I want to get these, these jokes out. I want to say these things. But you're never, ever to the point where you go. And therefore, I am removed from having to do any type of crowd. Because crowd work is usually. It's a response to something happening. You're being heckled, somebody's saying something. You know, there's this thing that, like, if you're in a huge venue, you don't want to actually go like, hey, what's going on with you, buddy? Right? Because there's somebody up in the 300 section. Who's like, I don't know what's going on. But the other side of it is you cannot ignore the obvious. Meaning if a fight breaks out, if, like, somebody throws something, if somebody is like, like, screaming and you just go, like, I'm just not going to. I'm going to act like, that's not happening. I'm going to keep doing standup, like what I wanted to do. Then people go like, this is weird. Right. Because this person's ignoring the obvious.

[Andrew Huberman]

Right. You're no longer connected to them in the same way.

[Tom Segura]

Exactly. They know that, like, there's a disconnect now. Like, you're ignoring that. Like, so that's how, like, you stay in kind of having. You have to maintain the skill set. Some people make it more of an emphasis of their show, and there's, like, really, really good people at doing that. I feel like it's also, like, part. It's more of, like, the DNA of New York comics, too. Like that. You'll see. I. I've always thought that, like, there. The level of proficiency there is really high in that scene. More of a back and forth, you.

[Andrew Huberman]

Know, because the small venues I go to, the Comedy Cellar, when I'm out there, I don't know if that's. It's still one of the main places.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, absolutely.

[Andrew Huberman]

There's a better one. Let me know. But my sister's always like, we're gonna go to the Cellar again.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Seller's F have our favorite nights. There actually were nights where it was pretty bad and we can laugh about that.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

But there have been a few nights there where it just killed.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And actually there was one night and ask my sister. This happened. Chappelle just, like, leaves Radio City hall, shows up with his entourage and just like, hops up on stage.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And just. That only happens in New York City.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I don't think that really happens in Los Angeles terribly often.

[Tom Segura]

He's done that quite a few times.

[Andrew Huberman]

He just, like, rolls in.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, he's done that in LA a number of times. He's done in San Francisco. But brunch, like, I'm saying, like, it's pretty well known, you know, he'll come into the store. Yeah. He, like. He loves the stage. And sometimes he'll be up there, like, legitimately, like three or four hours.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. He still. We ended up going home because.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Eventually he just called in a night and we were leaving and his team was like, you're really gonna leave?

[Tom Segura]

What?

[Andrew Huberman]

We'd had enough, but he. It was just Kind of unbelievable to me that this stage of his career that he was just gonna wander in and start doing comedy. But it speaks, I think it speaks to the, the, the intimacy of those small clubs.

[Tom Segura]

It does, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I mean it's still one of the few venues where like you can see greats. Like, I got to see you at the Belly up in Aspen. That's a smallish venue.

[Tom Segura]

That was fun. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Or you can go to a stadium. What's the largest stadium crowd you've done? It's more than, you know.

[Tom Segura]

The biggest crowd I did was like a little over 17,000 at a climate pledge arena in Seattle.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. So huge difference of scale there.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Not many public facing things occupy those levels of scale. I have a question about kind of cultural standards and what's really funny. So if you look back to comedians where at a time where like cursing on stage wasn't allowed, like kind of pre Lenny Bruce. Yeah, right. Is any of that comedy funny? Meaning, you know, now there's been this kind of expansion of kind of what, what you can say even just cursing. And, and so, so like if we look at earlier we were talking about working out, you know, like bodies looked very, like muscular. Bodies look very different in films, in the, in the 40s. Like you say, well, that guy, that person isn't very big by today's standard. But you say they're very fit. Right. Or she was very beautiful, very. And very sexy in the 70s. But very different look than like 90s and 2000. So standards change for what's considered ideal.

[Tom Segura]

Yes. The male one, by the way, is, is hilarious. For the leading man of like the 40s and 50s.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh yeah, they were very slender. Now they're like, I mean like not superheroes.

[Tom Segura]

They'd be like, they'd be like slender and also like not even very well defined and that. They'd be like, this is the stud of the, you know, I mean, of the movie. Like a guy who's not wearing a shirt and you're like, this guy's not active. Right, like that. No, this is like the stud of the movie. Like.

[Andrew Huberman]

Right.

[Tom Segura]

That's just a different time.

[Andrew Huberman]

Just a different time, different standard. And then of course, you know, standards of women's bodies have changed. Sometimes more voluptuous. Sometimes like in the 90s, it was the kind of wavy look and these things mirror what's going on in society to some degree. But if you listen to comedy, pre Lenny Bruce, pre swearing. Is any of it really funny to you?

[Tom Segura]

Well, to me I feel like I, I would probably listen to most of that. That with like that mind of. Because what happens with comedy too is to be fair to those people is you end up hearing so many versions of what they did. Things that are just derivative of other styles and types of jokes and types of performances that by the time, like, if I heard this guy in 1945 of doing these jokes and he's killing in this room, you know, I would go, I'd probably hear the joke and be like, oh yeah, like I, I know this joke. Like I, I know 10 versions of that joke because I've heard them. So I. Hearing it just doesn't make me laugh.

[Andrew Huberman]

Even though it's the original.

[Tom Segura]

Even though it's the original. Yeah, because I feel like, I feel like that even happens with like well known comedians. Like if, if like I was born in 79 and so like my like exposure, like I, I missed. I wasn't like really conscious and aware of like the prior era. Right. And like he's like a God in stand up.

[Andrew Huberman]

He's considered the, the, the best comedian ever. I mean, by most, it seems by.

[Tom Segura]

A lot of people, you know, he's.

[Andrew Huberman]

On the Mount Rushmore of comedy.

[Tom Segura]

He's definitely on the Mount Rushmore anymore. But I felt like by the time that I heard Prior, I had heard so many people that were influenced by Prior that hearing the original version wasn't like, it wasn't like I'm doubled over laughing, like I'm hearing every other version, like they're clearly inspired and you know, taking from him. But so now I hear the original and I go like, oh, I get that. That's the, that's the version of that. It can happen with comedy films too. It's like you watch Animal House, if you hadn't seen it before and you see it now and you've watched a lot of comedies, you might just go like, oh, I get how this is the blueprint. Because I've seen so many people take from this that now when you see the original, you'll be like, oh, you're like, yeah, but you don't realize that's the first time it was done. Like these jokes were done here originally. Everybody took from them, you know. So I don't think that I would probably end up laughing very hard at the pre Lenny Bruce comic just for the reason I said though, just because it's been done. I've heard so many versions of it.

[Andrew Huberman]

So it seems with comedy, unlike with music or poetry or books, there isn't that much carry forward. So for instance I was very, very young, if, and in some cases not born, when the Rolling Stones were doing their great work or the Beatles or Elvis. Right. But that music is awesome.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. Yeah. That's.

[Andrew Huberman]

So the fact that many people have taken bits and pieces from those. Like, you can't create an amazing Clash song the way the Clash did. Like, they did it best.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

And it will always, like, Death or Glory will be. Like, I don't care how many songs were derivatives of that. That song still kills.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And so comedy seems different.

[Tom Segura]

I think it's different in that regard. I. I definitely think it's different. I think that, you know, it's. It's one of those things where, like, it's. It's always shifting also. Like, what's funny has. It really is directly related to what's happening in the real time. Like, in the time you're living in, you can see whether it's from stand up or movies, jokes that aren't fun, that were, like, very funny in 1982, in 1995, in 2007, that you go, it just kind of of shifted, right? It's like, it's not. It's not funny anymore. Like, and I don't just mean because it's not, like, politically correct. I just mean, like, there's this unspoken thing that happens, right, where, like, you're laughing at something and then you kind of go like, hey, we collectively are. Don't find this is just not funny anymore. So actually, a lot of those things might even strike you as not only, like, not great, you might just be like, that is. Is. That's not funny at all.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. I once went to this thing in San Francisco around New Year's, and they. They literally wheeled out. Is it like Henny Youngman or Benny Youngman or something? He was doing these knock, knock jokes. He was probably in his late 90s. He was forgetting the punch lines, but occasionally he'd nail one. Yeah, it was not funny. Yeah, it was almost embarrassing, you know, but. But you were like, wow, this guy still, like, thinks it's funny. He was still going. So there was some amusement. But you looked at the older people in the crowd.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And they were like, oh, my God, it's bringing me back.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So you're like, oh, my goodness. But, you know, no one else was laughing.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

But as you're describing, some people might look at some comedy. I'm not gonna name names because I'm not versed enough in. In comedy, but from the 70s or 80s and be like, yeah, that's just Kind of, like raw, but, like, it's not. It doesn't really do anything for me.

[Tom Segura]

I'll tell you, like, this is a very simple, like, example, but, like, I re. I can recall that, like 20 years ago, if a guy was in a club. Club, and there was two guys sitting there in the front row together or whatever, a lot of times we'd be like, what are you guys, a couple? And that. That would sometimes prompt laughs. People would laugh. They would be like, oh, they're a couple. And like today, if somebody was like, what are you guys a couple? They'd be like, yeah. And everyone be like, okay. Right. Like, it would be like. Like it was considered. Like, oh, it's funny. You're implying that they're romantic couples people. And like, I feel like just the way society evolves today, people would be like. And.

[Andrew Huberman]

Oh, yeah. I mean, growing up when you. I mean, I'm a little bit older than you are.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I remember, like, the first gay characters showing up in film and reality tv. It was like a huge deal.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

And then. So things have really changed. So what. What, what is. Yeah, things have really changed.

[Tom Segura]

Like, no one's ever been funnier than Eddie Murphy, ever. They. I think he's like, him and his prime of just being funny. Like, there's just nothing. He's a. He's a total prodigy, once in a lifetime type of talent. Right. Like, so funny. If you put like, delirious on for a 21 year old today, they would be like, what the is happening? Like, it's. There's things in it that are just. They're just too dated now. You know, I mean, like, just concepts that are. He's still funny as. But, like, those bits will not land like they would in 83. They just would. Couldn't.

[Andrew Huberman]

Let's talk about the darkness of comedy. I once had the experience of going to the Comedy Cellar with some friends and this guy got up there. I don't remember his name, and it was super dark. I mean, it was like clowns with vans doing terrible. I mean, it was just like so dark. And the only thing that was hysterical about it was the fact that he seemed freaked out by it too. Like that what he was saying was, like, horrible.

[Tom Segura]

He was saying horrible, horrible things that.

[Andrew Huberman]

Had gone through his mind.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

But the fact that he thought it was horrible was what was funny.

[Tom Segura]

Sure.

[Andrew Huberman]

And we're like, whoa. Like, we walked out of there just from. Like, we felt like we'd been transported someplace really unhealthy.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And I was like, man, I feel like I need a shower after that. That was intense and scary and, like.

[Tom Segura]

This is my favorite thing, by the way.

[Andrew Huberman]

Whoa. And then we had the experience of running into him and his girlfriend later that night, and we were like, oh, my God. And he just took off. He just, like, could not handle the reflection about what had just happened in there. Really? Oh, yeah. No, he just. I'm sure he enjoyed the attention.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

He's a performer, so. But two things occur to me around that example. One is a guy who's really dark on stage. Seemed like a very loving guy, at least out in public with his girlfriend.

[Tom Segura]

Almost always the case.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. And the other one is that that where he took us and where he went was so down in the dungeon. Like, I still kind of get a weird feeling in my body thinking about it.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

But his shock at his own words.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Was absolutely hilarious, hysterical and brilliant. And it was like, hey, let's go down into the darkness of human nature.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'm going to show you how dark it really is. And I'm going to leave and you're just, like, left spinning. And it still sits in my body. We're talking about that visceral experience. Still sits in my body. I don't know what to make of it.

[Tom Segura]

It's incredible A. That first of all, that he can access. It is great. It is as if you're talking about just like, as the art form. Like, the. The best thing to do as an artist, any type of artist, is, I think, acknowledge and produce with the dark thoughts. In other words, don't act like they're not there because they're in everyone. And then put it into your art. In other words, it's. If you go like, I want to rob a bank, like, it's better if you're an artist to channel that into art. Whether you write a story about it, you paint a painting, you write a song, you talk about, you know, as a comedian, you're like your fantasy of doing it than to actually do it. So it's actually. You're channeling it in the healthier options. And I also feel like 20 some years of doing this, dude, the best people, as people that I've ever met are the darkest comedians on stage. And the absolute most terrifying people are the super clean guys.

[Andrew Huberman]

Like, really?

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, dude. Because they don't acknowledge the darkness. The darkness exists in all of us. They. The Dalai Lama has dark thoughts. Like, it's just.

[Andrew Huberman]

Just Young said this.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, it's just the way it is.

[Andrew Huberman]

It's Humans.

[Tom Segura]

It's human beings. Like we all now, some of us have not as, you know, present and overwhelming dark sides and thoughts, but there is darkness in everybody. The thing is, I feel like what some of the clean comics do is the lack of acknowledging it means that that darkness has to come out in some other way. It just does. So how does it come out? Well, it might come out in their personal life. I mean.

[Andrew Huberman]

Good.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. I mean, there's very famous cases of don't, don't curse. And then, you know, you're doing some pretty dark things. Like that's, that's a real thing, man, that, like, hey, I'm gonna talk about cookies and where do you put your socks? I can't find my other sock. Like, that's your bit. Talking about socks. Okay. What are you actually really up to? Because the thing is, those guys, some of those guys, this. Look, I'm not saying they're not fun. There's very, very funny clean comics. Some of those guys are right on the line of like, man, if you just acknowledge some of this stuff, it would be even funnier. Like you're just. And then you don't know how that darkness is going to show itself because it's probably going to show itself in a way that's not so pleasant.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, I. I completely agree with you. I have a friend who's a very, very well known musician. I won't say what genre and what I love about his music is it encompasses every range of emotion. Yeah, every range. And I've seen him play to huge crowds and just get so pissed. And I've seen him do love songs, hate songs, revenge songs, like just everything. Yeah, but in person, he's like the kindest dude ever.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, that's.

[Andrew Huberman]

And it's. He's so grounded. He and his. He and his partner are like the sweetest people. And she's got it too. She's an artist too. And some of her art, you're like, oh my God. And then you meet her and you're like, so kind, so trustworthy. Yeah. So exactly, exactly what you're describing. They're in touch with it. They know how to channel it.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, I think it's about doing that. And I think some people. Look, I think it's also a natural human instinct to not want to acknowledge or play with the dark thoughts that you have. Right. Like, it's. You don't want to sometimes because you go, that's an ugly side. And I don't want to. I don't want to. Use that for my art or even acknowledge that it's there. But I think it's definitely the better way to go is to actually work with it.

[Andrew Huberman]

A lot of comics die of drug overdoses. It's like, not these days as much. It seems like there's now, like, the. The healthy comics. You're one of them. And I don't know what the numbers are compared to music, like rock. Rock musicians or something. But if I compare to, like, science or I compare to, like, law. Okay. One could say, you know, in law offices, there used to be a lot of drug use, especially in big cities and this kind of stimulants. But let's just focus on comedy for the moment. Do you think that comedy pulls from a group that has a larger percentage of people that are just struggling with inner turmoil and they rely on substances to kind of manage or are the substances part of the creative process for people? Writers, too? I mean, it used to be that many writers were drinkers. If you ever want to, like a. Like a voyage through alcoholism, read about the habits of writers. Yeah, not all of them, but many of them drank a lot.

[Tom Segura]

A lot.

[Andrew Huberman]

A lot, a lot.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

Amphetamine, sometimes. But it was like drinking. It was like part and parcel with the writer's life. Sadly, that's not the case now. But, yeah. What are your thoughts about, I mean, substances and comedy and comics?

[Tom Segura]

I think it's a. It's a combination of things. I feel like, you know, a lot of comedians, like, that world pulls from certainly people with traumatic backgrounds. There's a lot of mental health issues with comedians. There's a lot of clinically depressed comedians. There's comedians that come into it with, like, severe anxiety, for instance, severe depression, different mental health things. So usually, even outside of comedy, if you're talking about people with this type of mindset, you know, these issues, you know, substances kind of come with that. People trying to regulate and deal with those issues to also, you know, throw some more gas on that. You're talking about an environment that is a nightlife environment where these things are kind of readily available. And it can, you know, it can be fun. It can. It can make you feel like you're. You're helping your. Your art form by partaking in these things. And then it's really just like with most things, you just kind of. You see that some people go, oh, it's getting. Right now. It's getting in the way. And they kind of acknowledge that, like, I'm better off without this. And then some people are just Too far gone in it. Right. Where they just. They. They're addicts. They become. We have a lot of addicts in. In comedy. It's just one of those factors. Like, you just. You see it a lot. People that are. Are complete hardcore addicts. So that coupled with mental health things and. And the fact that we're. We're. We're up late and we're with people that are also into nightlife. I think all that together, you get a lot of substance abuse. A lot.

[Andrew Huberman]

Why is cynicism so unfunny?

[Tom Segura]

Is it. I mean, I feel like cynicism presented in the right way, like a cynical person can be funny. I think what problem with. With cynicism is that it's. It's really not. Ultimately, there's nothing hopeful in it. Cynicism takes away any feeling that, like, things could get better.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah. Like in the world of improv, the. Yes. And I feel like cynicism like, shuts it down.

[Tom Segura]

Well, that's true in. In the. In the case of. In. I'm just saying, like, some people have this cynical kind of take on things that are still, like, funny people. Yeah. If you negate a thought in improv, the whole thing's over. It just dies. You know, if you're like, it's hot and like, I'm cold, you're like, okay, like, we're not really gonna do this, then, like, you kind of have to, like, add to it. But that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, if you're. If you're a cynical. Like a truly a cynical person. Because I guess the thing you find in comedy is there's a lot of, like, faux emotion. Right? Like the faux. So angry, you know, I mean, like, you put on this thing to sell your bit that you sell an emotion with it too. So somebody can, like, manipulate that cynicism with humor. But I think if you're genuinely a cynical person, what you are really is usually someone that, like, actually people don't want to be around. Right. Like the. The very genuinely cynical person. Another way to describe them is just negative.

[Andrew Huberman]

That told. Buzz kill.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. So you just kind of go, like, I don't want to be around that. I think ultimately the best mode to be in for comedy is like, you kind of actually want to be, like, inclusive. You want. You know, I mean, you're kind of like. Right. You're saying things that. That people want to nod along with. And if you're just like, shit's not going to work out. It never does. No one's like, this Is fun, man. Like, this is really funny. So that. That probably has some factor in it. I mean, yeah, you. You learn early on, at least. I felt like it, that there's these really cynical comics. But the thing is, I'm not talking about, like, the faux thing in a performance. Like, they are just like that. And you can feel the energy vortex that they are. And you kind of go, like, I got. I gotta, like, not be around this guy.

[Andrew Huberman]

Right?

[Tom Segura]

Because early on especially, you rely so much on hope. The fact that you signed up to do this thing that, you know, on paper, it seems insane. Like, were you going to tell jokes for a living? Were you out of your mind? That's what people would say to me. Like, they're like, are you crazy?

[Andrew Huberman]

I would say it worked out.

[Tom Segura]

I mean, I got very lucky and that it worked out.

[Andrew Huberman]

But you worked very hard. Extremely hard.

[Tom Segura]

I worked. I did work very hard at it. But that. That is a thing where you go like, oh, this is an insane path kind of to. To go down. Like, I can't have the guy who's next to me, who's also a comedian, being like this. You know, they're never gonna pick us. They're never gonna. This never works out. You're like, yeah, I can't have that mantra in my head all the time. And you have to, like, part ways with those people because they. They are like a virus, you know, They're a virus. Like, so, yeah, you're. You're right in observing. Like, it's not funny. I think it's more like that it's just. It's not productive to be around truly cynical people.

[Andrew Huberman]

Along the lines of what we're calling emotional contagion. I realized I'm not aware of any kind of, like, duet comics. I know it sounds kind of silly, but in every other genre, like, with music, right, people play alone, they play with a band, they play, like, together. Like you offset voices. I mean, but maybe in comedy stage comedy, that is, the audience is the other member of the. I'm calling it a duet, which sounds so silly, but you get the idea that they're the one that you're resonating with and that you're playing off of and they're riding with you. Because I've had the experience of going to the Comedy Store. I was there last year, and Tim Dillon did a bit. Well, he went out for, like, 20. He came out for 20 minutes and just murdered. And some of that's in his recent special, Just Murdered. It was just. And he, like, crescendoed the whole crowd. And then just like in typical Tim, when I was like, walked out, you're like, whoa. And you feel like you were part of something, Even though you were a passive recipient of what was going on or participant. So maybe that's where it is. Have there ever been two people that get up there and kind of, like, rip together? Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And do it well.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. There's a couple twins that do that.

[Andrew Huberman]

Okay.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. It's a good opportunity observation that it. It is like the audience is the other, you know, participant. Right. It's you and the. But then, like, the Lucas brothers and the sklar brothers are. They're both. They're twin brothers, and they go up there and. Because I'm. I'm. You've probably done something about the twin phenomena. Like, how these guys operate. Both of these sets of twins together is. It is like an experience where you're like, whoa. The way they don't go, like, always, like, set up punch. Like, the setup sentence can come half out of one brother and the other, and it's seamless. Like, it's like. It's like when you hang out with. You ever hung out with twins and they really answer in unison, Even though they're not looking at each other and they're saying, like, the same thing. Like, that's how these guys work on stage. And it is. You know, it gets you where you, like, you have questions afterwards, you're like, wait a minute. Did you guys, like, how did you set that up? Because. Because it's. It's so seamless. And they're literally, like, going back, back, back. Like, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And it feels like you had to go, hey, when I say. And make sure you. But it. It's another level beyond that. Like, they really flow. Even their talk over each other feels like it's perfectly done like this. You're hearing the end of this guy's sentence. The next guy steps on top of it, but you hear him clearly and back and forth.

[Andrew Huberman]

I have to check it out.

[Tom Segura]

Those guys are like. It is like a phenomena to watch them. To watch them work. It's. It actually is really, really cool.

[Andrew Huberman]

I'm coming to the conclusion that by being a audience member in comedy, you, one is experiencing a kind of an empathy with what the. The comic is experiencing. And that's kind of where we're getting here. Like, I didn't plan this out, but, you know, you have to feel it. It's got to be real for. For the comic the audience can sense that, that, the delight, the, the silliness that you're bringing to it. Like so much of that is in, in the audience's nervous system as they're getting it. And it, it's clear to me that like, comedy is the one way, I mean, you could say this about music, but like you said, so different because so much of it seems spontaneous.

[Tom Segura]

It does. And I also feel like, you know, my buddy Kirk Fox, he always, he's a great comedian and he always says this thing like when he's on stage, he's like, I plan on being open, inviting, you know, hoping to leave the stage a better, you know, leave the room a better place. Like. But this thing about being open, inviting, vulnerable is like, it's a very real thing. Like you, you learn it as you do it. You start off pretty much operating in fear as a stand up, right? You're terrified. You're terrified that it's, you're not going to do well. Well, the longer you do it, you get more comfortable being up there. You realize that if you're vulnerable, if you're willing to be vulnerable, which takes like, effort and some, you know, some like, courage, the audience senses this on an unspoken level and will go with you more places and will definitely laugh more and will be like, basically be on your side, right? If you don't learn to do that, that it's a different type of performance. You're basically like going up there with like, I'm the boss, you know, like, if you're going up there, like, I'm telling you what's up, they still might laugh at things, but they don't leave going like, I care for this guy, right? I empathize with him. And if you can learn to be vulnerable on stage, your performances will get exponentially better. And honestly, you'll, you'll get way crazier.

[Andrew Huberman]

Laughs so interesting. The reason I love comedy so much is that a, it lets me forget about the outside world while hearing about the outside world. And I think stage comedy is especially powerful. And before we sat down to have this conversation, we were talking about how like some people think, you know, they're like, oh, my friend is super funny, way funnier than any of the comics. But like a professional athlete or a non professional athlete in this case, can they do it on stage? Stage, can they, can they do the dance?

[Tom Segura]

That's the thing. Yeah, that is, that is the, the, the main question is because sometimes, like I told you, people will be like, you know, my friend Greg is hilarious. He's like one of the, he's funnier than any of those guys on stage. And you're like, I believe you. And you might hang out with him and be like, this dude is hilarious. Like, he's really funny. The difference is that, that can he do, can he be that funny when it's just him with a microphone in front of people and, and, and take who he is in real life and be that on stage? That's ultimately the goal for every comedian. Like, they say that like the longer you do stand up, your goal is to be who you are offstage on stage, right? Like, it's. Because you, it's impossible when you start, when you start, you are funny with your friends and then you get on stage and you know, you kind of freeze and you're, you're trying to like convey, this is who I am. Because you're, what you're doing is, you're going, this is how I see things. That's what you're, that's what your performance is like. This is funny to me. I'm going to tell you how I see it. And that's why it's funny. Some guys that are women, I'm saying, like just people that are very, very funny off stage, just, they can't do that, that to an audience. They're just, they're funny to be around in life, but they're not performers. I mean, there's an, an element to it that is like, can you get up in front of strangers and make them laugh? They don't know you. You have to convey who you are in a moment and make them laugh. That's a different thing. It's, it's not unlike a guy that kills it at the YMCA when you play ball. And it's like, okay, well, like let's put you in an NBA arena, right? Like, can you actually play with these guys? It's a, it's a totally different thing. Look, some can't. Everybody who ends up being a good, a good stand up was super funny to somebody off stage years ago, right? They just worked at it and they were able to translate it. Some people just can't translate.

[Andrew Huberman]

Do you think it helps to really like people as, as a general group? You know, like you're trying to entertain people, you're trying to be entertained by your own entertainment. Like, do you think you need to like humans?

[Tom Segura]

That's an interesting question. I thought I could answer that quicker. And I started to think about it because I started to think about the fact that like so many comedians I know, like, so many go like, God, I hate people so much.

[Andrew Huberman]

You know, I mean, to put. I'll frame it a little differently than my theory as to one of the main reasons why Rogan is the top podcast in the world. There are several reasons. I believe his work ethic, et cetera, but is because he has lots of different kinds of friends, and he can sit down with intellectuals, he can sit down with comics, he can sit down with criminal investigators. He likes the understanding and communication with different kinds of people. And when you know a little bit about him, like, his. His. His life is filled with these people outside of the studio. So he's very comfortable in the presence of, like, anyone. You put anyone in front of him.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And he can be genuinely interested in learning from them.

[Tom Segura]

Right.

[Andrew Huberman]

And sharing with them in dialogue.

[Tom Segura]

He's genuinely a curious guy.

[Andrew Huberman]

You can't. You can't fabricate that. You can't manufacture that.

[Tom Segura]

I agree.

[Andrew Huberman]

Whereas some podcasters, they're not that interested in what other people have to say, so they. They're not the best interviewers unless it's someone, like, directly within their genre of interest.

[Tom Segura]

This. That's a good observation.

[Andrew Huberman]

So, as a comment comic, I guess it depends on the range of topics that you explore in your comedy, perhaps.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, I. I don't think you can hate humanity and be a good comedian. Right. I think what, like, for sure, you have to genuinely love making people laugh if you're going to be, like, successful at it. You have to have an obsession with doing that, like a literal obsession, because you go through these periods on your journey of standup, of being like, hey, I. I don't have rent money, money. I can't, you know, I can't pay for anything. And you have the option, you want to go get a job, and you're like, no, I'm going to keep doing. Like, you're obsessed. You're obsessed with it so much that you're giving up things that people would otherwise in your position be doing in life, because you just are so in love with writing and performing jokes. Like, you know, you have an obsession. I do think you have to, on some level, though, like, I'm thinking about it, love people, because you're you. If you love making people laugh, you enjoy people. You know, you could still be. Because so many comics are so bothered by so many things that people do. You know, that's like a very normal. Like, I'm very much like, I can't stand these. But, you know, I mean, like, always just like, look at this. He's bringing eggs on the plane. Like, you know, like, you're just like tuna. Yeah. He's like, you, you like Tupperware on the plane. Eat that at the gate. So like, you know, we're always, you know, I mean, you're always just like complaining. Complaining is part of being a stand up. You're funny. If you, if you never complain about anything, you're probably not funny. You know, I mean, if you like humanity too much. Yeah. I feel like if, here's the thing, if you go, I'm good with whatever. You're not a funny person. You can, you're funny. If you have a. You either love or hate something that can be fun, funny. You can love this and it could be funny. You could hate it and that'd be funny. If you're like, I mean, I'm fine. That's not fun.

[Andrew Huberman]

The me response doesn't do too.

[Tom Segura]

It doesn't do anything in stand up. Yeah. So. But like, I think somebody that complains about people can be very funny. You just, you can't be like all people everywhere. I can't stand like that. That would be too extreme.

[Andrew Huberman]

There are all sorts of theories about how, how people's kind of childhood issues or just their fundamental struggle like, feeds their art in incredible ways. I think I saw an interview with Jim Carrey, who, admittedly, I don't know much about his comedy. I was so busy in school when he was kind of through his reign of physical comedy movies. I've never seen Dumb and Dumber. I've never seen the Matrix. I've never seen Goonies. Sorry, I just haven't. I love Stand By Me. I love other movies, but I need to see those movies. I'm busy. I'm trying. I got a lot I want to do.

[Tom Segura]

Last night at dinner, I just admitted that I'd never. I've never seen Braveheart and I've never seen Gladiator.

[Andrew Huberman]

Those are amazing.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah. And I guess. What, I'm not going to see him. Really? No. All right. I'm just not. Not going to. I'm not.

[Andrew Huberman]

Well, clearly just knowing a little bit about your children and the fact that they're related to you. I'm not going to try and push you to do anything because clearly you guys are stubborn.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So the question I have after seeing this Jim Carrey thing, he said, you know, his. The reason he did comedy is he wanted to make people laugh to forget about their struggles. He had a chronically ill mother and used to throw himself down the stairs as a Kid, I believe him. So physical comedy became his thing. How much do you think that really successful comedians tap into sort of a fundamental quest to resolve something you're trying to, whatever it is, fill in the blank. I don't want to fill in blanks for you.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's, I mean I can speak for myself. I think in my own, in my own case, I was the new kid a lot, right? I, I was, I was the. I went to one school for first grade, one for second and third, a different one for fourth, a different one for fifth and sixth, a different one for seventh and eighth, a different one for ninth. And I switched again in ninth grade. So I was a new kid all those times. And I, I felt like whenever I arrived and I. You kind of like over time go like, you start to develop this muscle for like, how am I going to get someone to like me? And it was like try to make them laugh, right? Like that became a thing. I was trying to make them laugh. I think for me personally there was also this. Just my own insecurities. I think I felt like if I got enough people to laugh, if I became a successful at making people laugh and like people acknowledged it, that I would no longer feel these insecurities. And it doesn't happen. They stick with you.

[Andrew Huberman]

And thank goodness. Because it sounds like it's the, it's the fuel for your art.

[Tom Segura]

I think it probably is. I mean, I just remember thinking like, you know, if I were to be like, had a special and I got paid well, then I wouldn't have any self doubts anymore or like, you know, I mean like, you think that, that like then I'll be, I'll feel fulfilled and then you get the thing and you're like, yeah, no, it's, it's the same. It's. It didn't go. I mean you, you start to address it in other ways because you just realize that the accomplishment or whatever isn't the answer to that thing. But it is a thing that makes you, you think that it will make you feel complete, right? And it's not the case. And I think, I do think that like being a new kid a lot is something that I'll probably never shake that kind of memory of. Just, it's, you know, when you're a kid, your social acceptance is so dominating. It's different as you get older. I think, you know, you're not, you're not like so concerned with like being socially accepted everywhere and you have a family and you're just like this is my, my group group. But as a kid it's like, it's kind of everything, you know, and being new every time, like every new school year is like. Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of traumatizing. Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

So it's the friction that creates the spark.

[Tom Segura]

I think so.

[Andrew Huberman]

And so you don't want to do too much therapy and resolve it. I mean, I'm seriously speaking, I mean.

[Tom Segura]

I've done so much.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, same. It doesn't ever go away.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah, it helps, you know, it helps in that like you have certain awareness of things now. Certain dots get connected. I love, I think therapy is phenomenal. I would not have traded any of the therapy that I had. I'm a huge advocate for it and I think it's great.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah.

[Tom Segura]

It doesn't, you don't go like, same thing like, now I'm done, everything's fine. Like, it doesn't work like that.

[Andrew Huberman]

But I've taken Jordan's competitive nature away. You wouldn't want that. No, that was, that, that was the friction that created the.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

The phenomenon that is a lot of comedian.

[Tom Segura]

I'm speaking, I spoke of myself. I think a lot of us fall under the, like the banner of, to put it simply, please like me. You know, I mean like you just go, please, please. Like, I want you to like me because that's what you are when you're a new kid and that's what you are when you walk into a room and you know, you just go, like, I just want people to like me. And, and a lot of comics might not admit it like that, but it's definitely the case. You're just, you want to be liked. Sounds pathetic, I think, but it's, it's true.

[Andrew Huberman]

No, I don't think it sounds pathetic. It sounds incredibly open and honest and I think it's going to be very helpful for people who seek to be comedians and just for people generally trying to think about how their, their challenge, that inner friction can, can create amazing things.

[Tom Segura]

Yeah.

[Andrew Huberman]

And you've managed to do it over and over again. So maybe.

[Tom Segura]

You almost got me to cry. We talked about. You almost got me.

[Andrew Huberman]

I can keep going.

[Tom Segura]

No, no, no, keep changing topic.

[Andrew Huberman]

What's happening now? What's next?

[Tom Segura]

Next? Well, it really, like I, I know people use this expression, but it really, truly was a dream come true to make the series like for real. You know, I made no secret about it that like the reason I moved to LA was not to be a stand up comedian, it was to like make movies. And stuff like that's what I wanted to do. So, like, getting the opportunity to make the show, it felt like I got paid to make like 15 mini movies for the series. And I mean, I've never had a more fulfilling kind of creative experience, like from writing to producing it to, you know, being in the edits and seeing this thing come together. So for me, it's like, it's such a thrill to have that experience and to be able to put that out as, like, something that I made with. With a bunch of great people. The difference stand up is like, you're alone and like, on a show or a movie, you're with like a hundred other people. And it was. It was an awesome experience and I get to do some more of it. So I get to do like a movie this summer and another show I got asked to. To develop. So, I mean, I'm am like over the moon that I get to do these things. It really. It's like I get to do them 20 years after I thought I would do them. But it's. I'm super grateful to have the experience. So, yeah, I'm most excited that I get to keep pursuing that because I feel like it's been in my head this whole time and now I actually get to act on it.

[Andrew Huberman]

Well, listen, I'm so grateful that you came here to share with us about your process. I mean, we talked about the art and science of comedy and humor.

[Tom Segura]

I hope it was good.

[Andrew Huberman]

Man I loved was excellent because you share so openly and you pull back the curtain on your process and comedy in general. And I love what a deep thinker you are and at the same time, how much you just pour yourself into your craft and enjoy it.

[Tom Segura]

Thanks.

[Andrew Huberman]

And your reflections are really appreciated. And I'm a fan. I'm also proud to have you as a cousin. And look, I look to you as somebody who really understands how to also balance work and family and merge the insanity of life into a craft. And people really, I can just say I speak for many, many people very confidently on this. People can really feel your benevolence, even when you're pointing out the darkness and the ridiculousness of the human experience. So you make our lives better. And so grateful you came out.

[Tom Segura]

Well, that's very kind of you. I'm also, I should say I am. I don't know if enough people tell you, but I'm also very honestly proud of you for, like, what you've done. And, you know, being a teacher is one thing, but being able to teach so Many people and share like, I always feel like the most generous person is the person who doesn't hoard information. It's a natural human instinct where people have information about something and they just go, I'll keep this to myself. And so the fact that you share, you teach so much. You know, I pick up things for you from you all the time and so many people do. And then it's become this thing where, you know, now people are like, what are you listening to Huberman? You're like, actually, yeah, I am like, my, my wife's like, what did Humorman tell you to take a. Right now I'm like, yes, no, but I mean, it's, it is great that you, you don't, you don't hoard information. You, you, you share it. And I think it helps a lot of people.

[Andrew Huberman]

Thank you. It's a labor of love. And for people that know me as you do, that's the same on camera and off camera. So you're a great role model to me. I'd love to have you back to continue the conversation.

[Tom Segura]

I would love to too. We'll do a five hour one next time.

[Andrew Huberman]

Yeah, like, and I'm going to finish the rest of of Bad Thoughts.

[Tom Segura]

Please do.

[Andrew Huberman]

It's amazing.

[Tom Segura]

Yep. Thanks so much.

[Andrew Huberman]

All right, Tom, thanks so much.

[Tom Segura]

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Tom Segura. To find links to Tom's work, please see the show.

[Andrew Huberman]

Note captions.

[Tom Segura]

I should point out that Bad Thoughts is not suitable for children. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple. You can leave us up to a five star review and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre [e-mail] there you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram X threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools. Tools some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms and if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You Simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Tom Segura. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.