Huberman Lab – Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe
Podcast: Huberman Lab
Host: Andrew Huberman, PhD
Guest: David Choe
Date: December 22, 2025
Episode Overview
In this powerful and deeply honest conversation, neuroscientist Andrew Huberman and artist David Choe explore the ways in which pain, trauma, addiction, and shame can be transformed into creative expression and ultimately into healing. Choe—well-known for his murals at Facebook, his wild life story, and his raw, confessional art—shares his journey from profound personal struggles to hard-won recovery and renewed creative purpose. Through vulnerability, humor, and hard truths, the dialogue moves from the influence of childhood, the role of shame and addiction, cycles of self-destruction and self-discovery, to the everyday tools for hope, resilience, and growth.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why David Choe Can’t Sit Still – The Flight from Self
[00:00] – [03:00]
- Choe attributes his gambling and various addictions to a lifelong need to run from himself, never wanting to “sit still” and face who he was.
- Activities ranged from graffiti and music to relentless travel and work.
- Quote: “I can’t sit still because that means I have to sit with myself and I can’t do that. I couldn’t do that. I can now.” – Choe [00:48]
2. The Power of Vulnerability (and Humor) in Art & Science
[04:54] – [12:53]
- Choe describes how painting or music is non-logical and invites people to move from their “head to their heart,” especially for thinkers like Huberman.
- Emphasizes the centrality of care and vulnerability, both in art and in human connection.
- Quote: “The longest journey you’ll ever take is from your head to your heart.” – Choe [04:54]
- Quote: “The invisible ingredient in everything in art is: Did the person care?” – Choe [11:48]
3. The Influence of Family—Faith, Shame, and Warped Self-Esteem
[27:28] – [40:46]
- Choe’s mother instilled in him blind faith and an unwavering belief in his greatness, patterned after her own religious devotion.
- Simultaneously, he felt unworthy, internalizing familial and cultural shame about not conforming, and facing repeated abuse and neglect.
- Quote: “She brainwashed me into believing I’m the best…even when I hated myself.” – Choe [31:10]
4. Addiction Is Universal, and It’s All Gambling
[96:20] – [104:01]
- Choe reveals the universality of addiction, arguing all compulsions, even drinking or overworking, are a way of gambling with one’s life.
- The allure shifts over time from winning to losing—chasing pain and shame.
- Quote: “Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you’re gambling your life.” – Choe [96:20]
- Quote: “At first, in every addiction, you want to win…Winning a million dollars feels great. Losing ten million feels even better.” – Choe [102:50]
5. Shame as Fuel—Chasing Pain to Make Art
[53:30] – [87:59]
- Recurring thread: shame is both a wound and a creative engine for Choe.
- He describes formative moments of vulnerability—his brothers reading his diary as a child, public career humiliations, being rejected by the art world and even porn magazines (!).
- Over time, he realizes “I’m a shame chaser—shame and anger are my drug.”
- Quote: “What’s my drug? Workaholism. But really, my drug I’ve chased my whole life is shame and anger.” – Choe [87:50]
- Quote: “You have to be ready to get naked. Pour your soul out and let people say, ‘that sucks’.” – Choe [53:30]
6. Transformation Through Adaptation, Surrender, and Community
[68:10] – [154:59]
- Choe details how creativity, business, and adaptation intertwine—survival means becoming “the best at disappointing [my] parents,” faking it until you make it, taking huge risks.
- Addiction and workaholism can be socially rewarded even when personally destructive.
- Genuine transformation came not through further achievement, but by asking for help, joining men’s groups, going to therapy, and building community.
- Quote: “You will never outthink a feeling, you will never outsmart a feeling. You’re applying logic to a spiritual problem.” – Choe [71:55]
- Quote: “I’m taking space. I’m taking care of me now.” – Choe [180:42]
7. On Legacy, Enoughness, and the Real Meaning of Creativity
[194:37] – [225:07]
- Choe and Huberman reflect on the fleeting nature of legacy, and the societal stories about what constitutes success.
- The conclusion is that “right now” and genuine, lived connection are what matters; allowing oneself to be “enough” is the deepest challenge.
- Quote: “You just have this. Right now, today, and that’s it. You don’t need to do more. You are enough.” – Choe [205:14]
- Quote: “Allowing myself to feel everything…telling myself I am enough…It’s simple, but it’s hard.” – Choe [215:40]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- The Power of Belief: “I have blind faith. I still believe in Santa Claus, 100%. You can’t say anything to make me not believe that.” – Choe [53:34]
- Creativity Born in the Mundane: “Brilliance is found in Milpitas, in Gilroy. Brilliance is found in the mundane, sitting in the waiting room.” – Choe [104:59]
- On Being Rewarded for Bad Behavior: “Every single time I speak up, scream, break the law—I get to do a Linkin Park album, Sean Parker notices me.” – Choe [104:59]
- Shame as Addiction: “Shame is so powerful… At this point, I've been to all the 12-step meetings... I'm chasing the shame.” – Choe [96:20], [102:50]
- Advice to Huberman: “You’ve done enough. You deserve to take a year off. You’re not going to outsmart the feeling.” – Choe [203:58]
- Art as Nakedness: “To draw something big on a wall and have thousands of people see it before 8:00 a.m.—that’s you being naked.” – Choe [110:56]
- Tools for Enoughness: “Wake up every day and say, I’m a good person. It’s simple, but it’s hard. You have to work at it.” – Choe [223:27]
Important Timestamps & Segments
- [00:00] – Opening confessions on addiction and running from self
- [27:28] – Childhood influences, faith, and shame from family dynamics
- [40:46] – Early career, rejection in art, and story of Facebook mural
- [53:30] – On heartbreak, creative expression, being truly vulnerable
- [87:50] – “I am a shame chaser”—addictions, public shaming, and resilience
- [96:20] – All addictions as gambling, and the psychology of winning vs. losing
- [104:59] – Surviving and thriving; transformation through community and humility
- [154:58] – Friendship with Anthony Bourdain, cycles of creative explosion, and hitting bottom
- [194:37] – Discussion of legacy, the trap of achievement, and the path to “enoughness”
- [223:27] – Concrete mental health tools: “play the tape out,” daily affirmations, gentle self-talk
- [225:07] – Hope and faith as daily practices, moving forward by asking for help
Closing Thoughts
The episode is a master class in vulnerability and self-examination. Choe’s raw honesty—about addiction, shame, failure, and creative struggle—serves as both a warning and an inspiration. Huberman guides the conversation with sensitivity, revealing that the science of healing is as much about connection, self-compassion, and acceptance as it is about tools and protocols. Whether personally touched by addiction and shame, or seeking inspiration for creative growth, listeners are left with a sense of hope, faith, and the possibility of transformation.
Listen If:
- You seek raw, candid conversation about creativity, trauma, and recovery
- You’re interested in how pain can be processed into art or personal growth
- You want to hear two masters—one of science, one of art—exchange tools for healing, resilience, and living fully
Listener Resources:
- For those struggling with addiction, shame, or depression, consider reaching out to support groups, therapists, and trusted people around you.
- As Choe models: start with community, honesty, and daily practices of hope.
Memorable Exchange
“You are absolutely heard and you’re absolutely understood. And I’m very grateful to you. The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is…that’s oddly the hardest thing. But the encouragement is heard. It lands.”
— Andrew Huberman [224:42]