David Letterman and Jim Downey Part 2 with Steve O'Donnell

Summary

Podcast Summary: Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends

Episode: David Letterman and Jim Downey Part 2 with Steve O'Donnell

Host: Robert Smigel
Guests: Steve O’Donnell, Jim Downey, Barack Kobas
Date: June 3, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of “Humor Me” is a witty, behind-the-scenes look at late night comedy writing, featuring two of the genre's heaviest hitters: Steve O’Donnell (head writer for Late Night with David Letterman) and Jim Downey (legendary SNL scribe). Panelists join host Robert Smigel and participate in a unique segment where a listener’s comedic writing is both celebrated and playfully scrutinized—this time, via an elaborate fan letter from Turkish listener and debate champion Barack Kobas, written to O’Donnell. The episode rich with stories about Letterman-era TV, writer room dynamics, the unsung heroics (and eccentricities) of the profession, and the odd topics that bond comedy writers everywhere.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Steve O’Donnell “Crackle” Rumor & Writer Room Banter

• The episode opens by resolving, with much playful ribbing, the running joke that Steve O’Donnell resembles “Crackle” from Rice Krispies.
• [17:03] Steve O'Donnell: "I can't. I cannot overstate this. He is not Crackle or Snap or Pop.”
• The segment is vintage comedy-writing camaraderie: quick, meta, and self-deprecating.
• [17:18] Jim Downey: “In my childhood, I resembled Crackle. I won't deny that. But that was long ago. Water under the bridge. Milk.”

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2. Late Night Writer Exodus & Letterman Show Memories

• The show explores why so many original Letterman writers left early on, and how the show gained steam just after their departure.
• [20:06] Robert Smigel: “Why do you think there was such a mass exodus?…Letterman was—I was obsessed with it.”
• [21:14] Steve O’Donnell: “Immediately…under Steve's leadership, the show became—Probably because Steve wrote the fucking entire show, which he was close to doing…”
• Stories include memorable guests (a socialite with 200 pairs of shoes, Monique Van Vooren) and early cult status.

The Archivist Behind the Scenes

• Much appreciation for Don Giller, the unofficial archivist who cataloged and preserved many long-lost Letterman moments, sometimes more effectively than NBC.
• [24:16] Steve O’Donnell: “Like the Irish monks in the medieval times, he saved civilization, preserved it.”

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3. Dog Comedy: Petscaping, Confidence, & K10

(A classic example of Smigel’s tongue-in-cheek, faux-advertising humor)

• The panel spirals into an extended (and increasingly absurd) bit about “petscaping”—a fake product for grooming dogs to build their confidence, and K10, a supposed “performance enhancer.”
• [05:04] Robert Smigel: “It’s what I call 21st-century grooming. Shaving equipment and ointments that allow your dog to have confidence.”
• Anecdotes about dogs' embarrassing behavior, the need for canine charisma (“riz”), and solutions involving increasingly ridiculous products.
• [09:46] Robert Smigel: “That’s why the people at Manscape have an additional product called K10…takes your dog from a K9 to K10.”
• [10:59] Steve O’Donnell: “He’s definitely got game now.”
• The segment is a sharp parody of both pet culture and late-night advertising tropes.

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4. Letterman’s Relationship to Failure on TV

• Letterman’s willingness to spotlight failed segments and bombed interviews is praised as a vital part of his show's charm and innovation.
• [29:16] Jim Downey: “Incidentally, that montage of bad interview moments was—all of them were produced by Morty [producer].”
• The discussion contrasts Letterman’s embrace of imperfection with the more polished approaches of others (e.g., Carson, Conan).
• [30:00] Jim Downey: “The idea was, it wasn’t an extravaganza… It was a little more putting on a show in the backyard.”

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5. Listener Segment: Barack Kobas’ Letter

Reading the Fan Letter

• Barack Kobas’ fan letter to Steve O’Donnell is elaborate, mock-heroic, and packed with surreal dark comedy and Letterman references.
• [31:45] Jim Downey (reading): “…not only grateful for what your words and deeds have done for my family, I feel empowered, secure in the knowledge that in challenging times, I can always call on the top 10 numbers list…”
• Fictional tragicomic family stories invoke archival Letterman gags as literal sources of hope, closing with the zinger: “You don’t look like Crackle.”

Steve O’Donnell’s Response

• Steve delivers a gracious, witty reply, commending Barack’s letter-writing:
  • [38:43] Barack Kobas (reading O’Donnell’s reply):
    “Your note was really, really well-written. The stories about your colorful family members were very funny… Yes, a wonderful and God awful life.”

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6. Comedy Writers: Reference Points & Eccentric Interests

• Barack asks how classic writers draw from outside comedy—literature, philosophy, and peculiar interests.
• [36:06] Jim Downey: “Steve Martin used to do a lot of jokes about philosophy. One of the things I bonded with Letterman on was a love for like middle brow brand names…”
• Steve O’Donnell shares:
  • Comedy writers are disproportionately obsessed with cartooning—and true crime.
    • “An interest in serial killers was extremely common…half of the writers at SNL were very up to date on that sort of thing.”
• Robert jokes:
  • [38:20] Robert Smigel: “If you want to bond with comedy writers…be up on your serial killers. If you actually yourself became a serial killer, wow, you’d be a superstar.”

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7. Mentions of Classic Comedy Inspirations

• Discussion of Monty Python, Beyond the Fringe, and the greats of British satire as foundational influences.
  • [41:46] Steve O’Donnell: “Beyond the Fringe in terms of the use of language…that’s just the Rosetta stone of…comedy for me.”

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8. Reflections on the Unsung Role of Sketch Comedy Writers

• Smigel makes a case for the anonymity and undervalued role of sketch writers, whose work is seldom publicly credited.
  • [42:54] Robert Smigel: “Sketch comedy writers are the most unsung writers I think there are, because they write for a collective and their material is never identified individually…now finally you’re getting your due.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [19:18] Jim Downey: “I am touched enough that Letterman showed up for the first half. Because he doesn’t do just…anything.”
• [25:34] Steve O’Donnell: “Desk pieces were like potluck dinner…whatever’s in the refrigerator…”
• [27:53] Robert Smigel (on a meta joke bombing): “Maybe the show was so obscure they didn’t even know what they were looking at.”
• [36:29] Steve O’Donnell: “Interests common to comedy writers...an ability to do little cartoon caricatures…and an interest in serial killers…”
• [41:29] Barack Kobas: “When I was 12 or 13, the YouTube algorithm was very different and it would just randomly recommend me sketches that Monty Python did. I think that was just a moment that broke my brain, I think.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|:--------------:| | Steve O’Donnell “Crackle” Rumor | 17:03–18:08 | | Writer Exodus & Early Letterman Show | 19:48–23:18 | | Don Giller the Archivist | 22:49–24:16 | | Dog Grooming Comedy/Bits (Petscaping, K10) | 04:08–13:22 | | Letterman’s Embrace of Failure / Bad Interview Mtg| 28:05–30:16 | | Barack’s Letter – Reading & Response | 30:51–39:34 | | Comedy Writers’ Reference Points & Serial Killers | 36:06–38:35 | | Classic Comedy (Monty Python, Beyond the Fringe) | 41:29–42:22 | | Sketch Comedy Writers’ Anonymity | 42:54–43:25 |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is brisk, playful, and irreverently intellectual, filled with self-mockery, old-writer banter, and loving detail for comedy as both vocation and obsession. Whether swapping dog jokes or unpacking TV history, the sense is of a coven of comic minds riffing for each other as much as for the audience—generous with their time, memories, and neuroses. Obama's segment is treated (in their own words) as both heartfelt and mischievous, fitting the spirit of the show.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a treat for comedy fans: a blend of inside-baseball TV history, offbeat writer-room psychology, fan interaction, and fabulously silly asides (notably, the petscaping product riff). It’s a model of how comedy writers talk shop, and a loving homage to the overlooked architects of late-night humor. If you want to know why “sketch writers are the most unsung writers there are,” this is your episode.

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Listen for:

• Illuminating stories about the writing and production of Letterman and SNL
• The dry, surreal wit of veteran TV writers
• Banter about obscure gags and deadly-serious dog grooming bits
• The kinship and quirks that bind the comedy writing tribe

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Transcript

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What's up y'?

[Steve O'Donnell]

All?

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[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kalpen. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistants assistance. Switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.

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you're locked into a lot of things you can't change. Weather, traffic.

[Robert Smigel]

Hey, stay in your lane.

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[Robert Smigel]

For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com previously on Humor Me. I've Brought in a couple of people who have worked with Steve o'.

[Starbucks Tropical Butterfly Refresher Promoter]

Donnell.

[Robert Smigel]

It's. That's Jim Downey.

[Barack Kobas]

Oh, my God.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Hi, Barack.

[Robert Smigel]

Now, I brought one other person who worked on this Late Night with David Letterman show. Can we pan and show him there? That's.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Hi, Barack.

[Robert Smigel]

This is Dave from Indianapolis.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Can you tell the three of us here a little bit about yourself? For example, do you have a family, Barack?

[Barack Kobas]

I have a brother, Imam. Okay.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Are you currently appearing on Broadway?

[Steve O'Donnell]

Steve o', Donnell, his entire life, from childhood, has been tormented for people accusing him of looking like Crackle.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Really? Yeah.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Well, I kind of remember that.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Maybe just stay away from the whole. I would even stay away from Kellogg's

[Robert Smigel]

breakfast or rice, any rice product.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

I want to hear something about Erdogan.

[Robert Smigel]

Go ahead.

[Barack Kobas]

Oh, Erdogan. So you guys get me arrested, I guess. Okay.

[Sheba Cat Food Advertiser]

Yes.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's the whole purpose of the afternoon.

[Robert Smigel]

We would like to see you zip

[Dave from Indianapolis]

tied and taken away.

[Barack Kobas]

You've been playing the long con, I guess, there.

[Steve O'Donnell]

The long con, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Dave, Dave, flash your badge.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

This is the long con.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes, it is. Exactly.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Boy, is it ever.

[Robert Smigel]

Dave's entire career has.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I drove in from Westchester.

[Jim Downey]

Humor me. Need to make some people slap their knee. Humor me. My wit is lacking to the nth degree.

[Robert Smigel]

So, you guys, besides being brilliant comedy mites, you love dogs, right?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Oh, yeah. Both of you.

[Robert Smigel]

You've had Bob the dog going back.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Bob the dog. Yep.

[Robert Smigel]

My dog currently have a pup. That's right.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah. I remember one time we brought Bob up to the office and you said, this is a really cool old dog.

[Steve O'Donnell]

And he. I think he appreciated it.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

I think he did. He said good things about you, by the way.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Right back at you, Bob.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Thank you.

[Robert Smigel]

And, Jim, have you ever experienced a lack of confidence from your dog?

[Steve O'Donnell]

Absolutely.

[Robert Smigel]

When he's among other dogs, how does that manifest?

[Steve O'Donnell]

He'll crawl under the bench, and it

[Robert Smigel]

seems like maybe he's scared.

[Steve O'Donnell]

But I'm not the dog that some of these other dogs are.

[Jim Downey]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

I think there's, you know, we take for granted. Oh, he's just scared. But, no, there's more going on. And you've used this product on your dog. It's from the people at manscaping. It's petscaping.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

It's what I call 21st century grooming. Shaving equipment and ointments that allow your dog to have confidence. I mean, grooming is all well and good, but, you know, being fluffy and having a bandana doesn't necessarily cut it.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Not. Not going to cut it.

[Robert Smigel]

Not in 26, yeah.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Oh, really? That won't work anymore.

[Robert Smigel]

No, Like Jim said, not gonna cut it.

[Steve O'Donnell]

A French bulldog named Luther with a. And he and Luther had, like, you know, impressive barrel chest and a six pack.

[Robert Smigel]

It's buried under tons of fur.

[Steve O'Donnell]

The kit that Robert turned me onto.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. Petscaping, the ointments and stuff, you know, and the ointments are very special about my dog.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

And it's fortuitous that I'm here today because much of this is new to me. My dog, when we picked up my dog Tiny, tinier than I thought he was gonna be. And by the way, when he takes a leak, he will squat as opposed to lifting a leg. Have you ever heard of that? Yeah.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

That's embarrassing.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Is it? It is embarrassing.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, that's where you want. That's where petscaping comes in.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's what I'm wondering.

[Robert Smigel]

Because much like the way we trim the gardening down there, put it gently to make the intimate areas look bigger and more substantial.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

But as a pet owner, am I allowed to go there or not? I don't know.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, they're. They're very discreet about Disservice. That's part of.

[Steve O'Donnell]

If you don't.

[Robert Smigel]

They have. They. They actually have additional. For people who are squeamish about it. You can attach a pole so that you can hold it from. From as much as three feet away.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Well, you use a good word, squeamish,

[Robert Smigel]

but for your dog's sake, like Jim said, he wants people to see his best presentation.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

If you think about it, I mean,

[Steve O'Donnell]

do you remember my beagle Louie?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

Of course I remember your beagle Louie.

[Steve O'Donnell]

He just didn't have the. The Riz that, you know, that.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes.

[Steve O'Donnell]

He needed to attract the female dog.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Some dogs have it naturally, this charisma, as the kids call it. Riz.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

And he was.

[Robert Smigel]

His dogs need help.

[Steve O'Donnell]

You know, we take him to the dog park and suddenly he. He, you know, thinks in the corner. A couple of weeks into this, not only do the. The female dogs just take notice and present themselves, but I have seen. And you'll say I'm nuts, but I've seen animals of other species like, you know, the. Like mourning doves, I guess.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Oh, yeah. Yes, yeah, yes.

[Steve O'Donnell]

That they will sort of take notice, Louis.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Walk down the street and you can sort of. It's as if they're saying, like, you know, I'm a pigeon, he's a dog. I get that.

[Robert Smigel]

But if. If I could work, I'd be all over that. Be all over that interspecies. And Louie.

[Steve O'Donnell]

And. And by the way, Louis knows it, too.

[Robert Smigel]

He can feel.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

I think that's true about dogs. They can sense other things that humans just are completely oblivious to.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. Which brings me to another point. A lot of times, you know, you'll be in your living room looking through a window watching your dog mount another dog. And, you know, you don't want other people to see you looking because you're enjoying it too much, whatever the reason is.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Never bothered.

[Robert Smigel]

Never bothered you.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Okay, but you see, I've had that happen at Thanksgiving. Wow.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Okay. I have a family with the family. They caught you looking at a dog mountain.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

They were all looking.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, they were.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Oh, good.

[Robert Smigel]

My point is, when you're watching your dog mount another dog, it all happens pretty quickly. But in terms of what you're talking about over quick empathy, what do you.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

What do you suppose that means that it can be over quick? Well, I mean, is that anatomic? Is it biological?

[Steve O'Donnell]

We're getting at it. It's partly confidence. It could be. It could be a lack of confidence.

[Robert Smigel]

I think it's just the dog walks, you know, he does his business, he walks away. And you get. You just assume that, oh, it's all natural. But we know that dogs are empathetic. You know, obviously, when we're feeling down, my dog will snuggle up to me, that kind of thing.

[Boost Mobile Promoter]

Why.

[Robert Smigel]

Why are we presuming that they don't have empathy for a female that they're not performing properly for? Am I right?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

No, you're right.

[Robert Smigel]

Am I right? Am I right?

[Steve O'Donnell]

And I think.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, because that's why the people at Manscape have an additional product called K10. And this is a performance enhancing creation.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's great.

[Robert Smigel]

Takes your dog from a K9 to K10.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's genius, by the way.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes. And because to a K10. And it enhances your dog's stamina in the proverbial bedroom, let's call it. But, you know, in this case, the backyard. And. And it's a performance enhancer. And you're. I. I've seen dogs. My dog lasted a half hour.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Really lasted a half hour. After using K10, I watched my Louie the Beagle. The Beagle mounting a Pekingese.

[Jim Downey]

He looked over,

[Steve O'Donnell]

winked at me. He gave me a little.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, and see, that's confidence.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That is confidence.

[Robert Smigel]

That's confidence and showing off. Yeah, well, that's the thing.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Swagger.

[Robert Smigel]

It's like certain dogs are. Just have it naturally and more power.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Louie did not.

[Robert Smigel]

But Some dogs need a little help to get that, you know, they don't have any game. No natural game.

[Steve O'Donnell]

He's definitely got game now.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Good for Louie. I'm very happy for him. Yeah. But the case. The problem we're having with our new pup is.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Just random humping.

[Robert Smigel]

Random humping.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Random. That's good.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I mean.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

No, really.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, well, humping of what?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Other dogs or my mother in law?

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, you know, has he been out

[Robert Smigel]

enough with other dogs? Because maybe he's just frustrated.

[Jim Downey]

We have been.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

We have been told that it's asexual humping, which sexual I myself am guilty of.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, do you do it as a form of high school? Right.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

I mean, didn't we all?

[Robert Smigel]

But so are you doing. Were you doing it as a form of dominance?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

I know you're trying to be funny here. No, it had nothing to do with my behavior. It's just something that the pup does. Now, that's annoying. You know, you come to the house, okay, you're gonna get humped.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, I think it's. It's a fight.

[Robert Smigel]

I think he's probably releasing a lot of frustration.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

But the, the point is, does it manscape the K10? Does that help the humping?

[Robert Smigel]

It will help the humping in that he will want to go after actual dogs and hump them. My dog's problem was aggression with, you know, very common with, with, you know, people coming into the house. And ever since he got manscaped, when he sees the mailman, he doesn't attack him anymore.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's just. That's huge.

[Robert Smigel]

No, all he does is just like he, like Jim says, he just kind of. It gives them a knowing look, like, my man.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Whoa.

[Robert Smigel]

You know, that's it.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's huge.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

So because you take down one mailman and you are marked.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. He doesn't. He doesn't hurt mailman anymore. He just kind of shares.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's.

[Robert Smigel]

Shares of the confidence they have, you know.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

That's delightful. What a good story.

[Starbucks Tropical Butterfly Refresher Promoter]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

So listen, if you, if you, if you're interested in this product, you can use the code, which is. This is a scam. 3, 7, 9, 6 for a discount.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Great.

[Robert Smigel]

This is a scam. 3,796.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Like a public scam.

[Robert Smigel]

8, 7, 4. Because everybody loves 3, 7, 7, 4.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

God bless you, Robert.

[Robert Smigel]

Thank you. Thank you. That's. We'll be right back.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Let me get my ham and get out of here.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

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Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan Equ to $15 per month required Intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee full [e-mail] hey

[Kal Penn]

everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Wil Wheaton, who played Gordie Lachance in stand by me 40 years ago and now narrates Stephen King's the Body, the novella that inspired it all. We talk about what it's like to return to a story that shaped his life, channeling his memories of River Phoenix in the recording booth and why the friendships you have at 12 might be the most important ones you'll ever have.

[Jim Downey]

I know Gordie Lachance. I am Gordie Lachance. I mean, even when I was a little kid, I was Gordie Lachance when I didn't know it.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to earsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Why is it always chaos when we link up?

[Nissan Rogue Promoter]

Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the Rogue's ready like that for real. Rain, dirt, whatever available. All wheel drive, five modes. We still outside and they got some kick too.

[Robert Smigel]

That turbo torque is crazy.

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The most in its class.

[Robert Smigel]

It moves, moves.

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Rogue doesn't mess around and peep the space merch on merch gear mic'd all the fits.

[Robert Smigel]

Load up, we out.

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[Robert Smigel]

a thing that needs to be funnier. Tell us about [e-mail] Humorme welcome back. It's a few weeks later, Barack successfully sent a letter to Steve o', Donnell, who, by the way, we are here with Jim Downey again, as you can see. And right here in the middle.

[Barack Kobas]

Just.

[Robert Smigel]

I want to just clear something up. Right, right. Top of this, the obvious elephant in the room. Now that Jim brought up. This is not Crackle from. This is the greatest. One of the greatest late night comedy writers in history. Steve o'. Donnell. This is not Crackle, the mascot from Rice Krispies. Okay, can we. Jim, you'll back me up on this 100% because Steve's not going to want to advocate for himself, but you can back me up. He's not Crackle.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I can't. I cannot overstate this. He is not Crackle or Snap or Pop.

[Jim Downey]

He has.

[Robert Smigel]

He probably did. I don't know. I don't want to be. I don't want to get presumptuous, but I don't even know if you like Rice Krispies.

[Jim Downey]

Yes, I like them fine. And in my childhood, I resembled Crackle. I won't deny that. But that was long ago.

[Robert Smigel]

That was long ago.

[Jim Downey]

Water under the bridge. Milk.

[Robert Smigel]

You would have thought. You would have thought

[Dave from Indianapolis]

milk.

[Jim Downey]

What, under the crispy.

[Odoo Advertiser]

Milk.

[Robert Smigel]

Under the crispy.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay.

[Jim Downey]

I like in the, in the 90s and early 2000s, if I had to meet someone who'd never seen me, I would say I look like Conan. If he'd been bombarded with gamma radiation.

[Steve O'Donnell]

That is true.

[Robert Smigel]

That is true.

[Steve O'Donnell]

That is true. So holds true today, the Crackle thing is Conan has canard.

[Robert Smigel]

Canard that Jim that I resurrected. But he resurrected. I guess he was overly concerned and protective of you.

[Steve O'Donnell]

He was being protective and I probably should have just kept my mouth shut.

[Robert Smigel]

I love the idea of having Steve o' Donnell, one of the greatest late night writers on ever and spending 20 minutes disputing that he resembles. Okay, so we've resolved that this is Steve o' Donnell and Steve o' Donnell's here because Barack wrote him a fan letter. Barack's here as well. Dave's not here, by the way. He's not coming. Any thoughts? Any, Any, Any.

[Jim Downey]

It's like the Cheech and Chong classic. Dave's not here.

[Robert Smigel]

Dave's not here. You know, sometimes everybody comes back or they're on Zoom. But Dave's not here. Any theories why? Yeah, all I heard from his assistant was he's busy doing anything else.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, I'm sure he has a very good reason.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah,

[Steve O'Donnell]

Yeah. He would be here if you didn't have a. Robert. Robert.

[Robert Smigel]

No, he would.

[Steve O'Donnell]

He would be here.

[Robert Smigel]

He would.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I'm sure it's something really urgent.

[Robert Smigel]

Really urgent. Like a crisis. You promise?

[Steve O'Donnell]

I'm 99.999% certain.

[Jim Downey]

I am touched enough that Letterman showed up for the first half.

[Robert Smigel]

That's how I felt.

[Jim Downey]

Tremendous. Because he doesn't do just. Just anything.

[Robert Smigel]

No, I was. I was blown away that he showed up at all. And then he spent like two hours here and did a commercial about animal manscaping. So I have no complaints. God bless you, Dave. Steve, you took over Jim's job.

[Jim Downey]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

As head writer.

[Jim Downey]

Yes. Partly by default because almost the entire writing staff departed for the new show. Seemed like greener pastures. Andy Breckman went to Saturday Night Live.

[Robert Smigel]

Right. The Dick episol era. Yeah.

[Jim Downey]

Jim and George and Tom Gammell and Max Prosthetic and all.

[Robert Smigel]

Why do you think there was such a mass exodus? All because of the new show. Primarily just the draw. Because in 1982 or three, when this happened, anybody watching both Letterman and SNL was. I mean, Letterman was. I was obsessed with it.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I have to say. Almost immediately after we left, the show became super hot. It was like. Yeah, I ran in. I remember.

[Robert Smigel]

That's right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You.

[Robert Smigel]

You were there when, like, it was really cult.

[Jim Downey]

It was. It was. It was a lady who dressed her parrots in costumes and stuff.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I remember we had some nightclub singer who had what we thought was an astonishing 200 pairs of shoes.

[Jim Downey]

And we had them on a socialite of some kind.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Yeah. And we had them on a conveyor belt. She agreed to bring in all her shoes. And she was a chanteuse, as I remember. It'll come to me.

[Jim Downey]

Her name, it had a glamorous ring to it. It was like a Maimie Van Doren kind of.

[Steve O'Donnell]

It was Monique Van Vooren. Thank you. Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Wow.

[Steve O'Donnell]

But, yeah, we did. But immediately. But under Steve's leadership, the show became. Probably because Steve wrote the fucking entire show, which he was close to doing, even when the rest of us left.

[Jim Downey]

I think it took a little longer than that for the show to catch on. It was three plus years in when we started finally booking cherry and stuff like that. I remember that was a big deal.

[Robert Smigel]

When she came to me, it was the biggest thing imaginable. But I did. I remember the first year, I would like, videotape every show because I literally thought, what if it gets canceled? I want to have these shows to rewatch.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, it actually is true that they were embargoed. NBC member locked them up in New Jersey somewhere. And it was, it was only recently that.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, the original. Oh, because those. Yeah.

[Steve O'Donnell]

You couldn't have access to them.

[Jim Downey]

It wasn't for Don Giller, the guy you should have.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, I don't know.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Jim Downey]

He wouldn't be searching for Monique Van Vorin. He'd have it at the tip of his tongue. He'd say show 112.

[Boost Mobile Promoter]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

Don Giller has a website, has a YouTube page that's filled with Letterman.

[Jim Downey]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Clips.

[Jim Downey]

Yes. And I think he's a consultant on the Letterman YouTube channel.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I mean, I haven't cut him a check or anything, but he deserves. I mean, I have a couple times emailed him to go. This is not. I mean, you would. Is there any way you could identify. I think it was 82 or 83, but some specific, like, viewer mail segment and he will, like, five minutes later, I get an email saying, like, oh, Jesus. Yeah, piece of cake, right? Why don't you give me something?

[Robert Smigel]

You think it took, like, all this time for NBC to cool down and let him? Or did they?

[Jim Downey]

There is a little bit of that

[Steve O'Donnell]

because they actually were pissed off. They didn't want them over intellectual property

[Robert Smigel]

30 years later at this point.

[Steve O'Donnell]

I know, but it didn't, it. Steve, didn't it take until like 20, 21 or something before they released that

[Jim Downey]

stuff and before he been trying all

[Robert Smigel]

those years to get that stuff released? Had he been attempting.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, I'm not. Well, certainly the general public wasn't allowed access to it.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, I remember this, one of the creepiest moments when we were taking over Conan and we were, I think, at an NBC up front, the topic of intellectual property came up and an executive said, we just want to make him sweat.

[Jim Downey]

Yeah, I'm sure that was the attitude. I feel that whenever I walk through the lobby of 30 Rock, they have the big murals on the wall of all the talk show hosts and stuff. No, Letterman, really. Ten years he was on the network. But I think what I noticed they had definitely loosened up is by the time Letterman's CBS show was wrapping up and they were doing a lot of tape packages, it was easier to get them from NBC, but it was also, we discovered they didn't have everything and they didn't have the correct date and show number for a Lot of them. And again, this is where that the. The Don Giller, the archivist, when. When there was Mark Twain Awards and the Lincoln and the Kennedy Center Awards that Letterman was involved in and they

[Robert Smigel]

needed clips, they leaned on Don.

[Jim Downey]

Don. He gets a credit at the end of those shows.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Yeah, he deserves it.

[Jim Downey]

Like the Irish monks in the medieval times, he saved civilization, preserved it.

[Robert Smigel]

Steve, did you ever want to do sketch comedy?

[Jim Downey]

No, it wasn't really my strong. I've written sketches.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. You did a little work for me on the Dana Carvey.

[Jim Downey]

Oh, yes, that's right. What a wonderful show that was. That should have succeeded. And Dana was a delight to work with.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, Dana was great.

[Jim Downey]

He was always such a good. I think you get to know class clowns over the years from different schools and stuff. He's the only sort of person who sort of claims to have been a class clown who actually turned out to be a pretty funny adult.

[Robert Smigel]

That's a good point. Yeah. Class clowns almost never age well.

[Jim Downey]

But also just kindly and generous and.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, yeah, no, I would say too

[Jim Downey]

for Letterman, he's cranky as he could be about things when something really went south. He could be sort of kind of giddy about it.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Like we. We never on camera.

[Robert Smigel]

And also after the show.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Yes. We never deliberately put him in that situation. But. But it was fun when it happened. And it's funny. I remember. Steve, I'm sure this was. You did one of my favorite jokes I've ever seen on television where we did this thing which completely died. Can we talk about this?

[Robert Smigel]

I mean, it's just. Go ahead.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Barack. Barack's good.

[Robert Smigel]

We'll get Barack in a minute.

[Steve O'Donnell]

So anyway, it was. We used to do these desk pieces where we just. We just were doing them out of scraps. Like was ever. It was like when you. You cook a potluck dinner, whatever's in the refrigerator, whatever, it's going to be some hamburger meat and photos you have.

[Robert Smigel]

It's a volume business, as Conan said.

[Steve O'Donnell]

So anyway, this was a thing where we needed a desk piece. And it was. The premise was like, excuse me. Like, you know, your tax money at work. You know, it's like. Like what a. Just this place. And so we had Dave do the attitude of. And can you believe this? Our government spent. So anyway. And the whole thing as a group

[Jim Downey]

just completely ate it so spectacularly from the outset.

[Steve O'Donnell]

And it's just the audience hated everything about it. But then Andy Brechman and I kept bringing out more like. And Dave would go, well, I've Just been given a couple more of these items and the audience. And then when he said the last thing. And they got a huge ovation from

[Robert Smigel]

the audience, of course.

[Steve O'Donnell]

But Steve had one that A lot of the jokes I could see why not? But this is one of my favorite things ever. And it was. And how about this? You've heard about the new space station, new space station. NASA spent $220 million on a camera that will take pictures from space. And of all the pictures it took, this is the only one that came out. Now you just edit in the picture. But it was a still of Noah Beery Jr. And Ken Curtis from a show.

[Jim Downey]

It was just a publicity show, Yellow Rose or something.

[Robert Smigel]

But not only was it these two

[Steve O'Donnell]

cowboy actors, but it was clearly a studio portrait for promotion purposes.

[Robert Smigel]

Right.

[Steve O'Donnell]

And it was just such a brilliant meta joke. And. And I go, okay, audience. The other stuff I could see were. But this joke is just absolutely genius.

[Robert Smigel]

Maybe they don't even. The show was so obscure that they didn't even know what they were looking at.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Didn't matter, clearly.

[Robert Smigel]

No, I understand that. I would have laughed, I'm sure.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, anyway, I think one other thing. Do you remember when the very first time they became like. He became like a very popular returning guest, but the very first time when Peter o' Toole did the show and he was completely shit faced, comes out like, I'm sorry, what is your surname?

[Jim Downey]

I do. Well, also like Richard Harris and they were all these actors that would come out and say, oh, my drinking days are done. But they then would tell stories about acting bombed at the Old Vic and stuff that would just make everyone in the audience go, I wish I was an actor and could drink for 48 hours straight.

[Robert Smigel]

In terms of him reveling in failure, as it were. So I was. Before we did our show with Dave, I watched the first anniversary of Late Night. It was like, I think it was. No, it wasn't prime time. It was on at 12:30. But it was their first anniversary show. And right up at the top of the show was a montage of interviews that went bad. That like really like the guy who was the British guy who was the son of.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Oh, it was Clement Freud.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes, Clement Freud.

[Jim Downey]

He offered to help Dave with the interview. It's one of the few moments when I, when a guest seemed to. To be teasing Dave in a cruel.

[Robert Smigel]

Right up front, it's like, here's all this stuff that went badly. Here's a montage of it because like Frank and I experienced the Conan show And there's no way, like Frank, that Conan interviewing Eartha Kitt would have ever been in a montage on our anniversary show.

[Jim Downey]

Incidentally, that montage of bad interview moments was. All of them were produced by Morty.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, there you go, Morty Slander right here on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends.

[Jim Downey]

But there is a good aspect to that because I think the show for years, the idea was it wasn't an extravaganza. It wasn't right. It wasn't everything. It wasn't up to Carson Burbank quality level. It was a little more putting on a show in the backyard.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, anyway, I guess we should bring on Barack. Barack, you're back. How are you?

[Steve O'Donnell]

Yeah, I am.

[Barack Kobas]

I'm great. How are you guys?

[Robert Smigel]

We're great. Steve o' Donnell is here.

[Jim Downey]

Barack, I was so delighted to get your letter.

[Barack Kobas]

Yeah, very excited to see him.

[Jim Downey]

And same here.

[Robert Smigel]

Barack, I'd like Steve to read your letter and then you may. Do you have Steve's response?

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah, I do.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, here. Would you like to read it on.

[Jim Downey]

Well, sure, why not?

[Robert Smigel]

Big fat paper.

[Jim Downey]

I like paper more than phones.

[Robert Smigel]

Sure.

[Jim Downey]

To the Steve o' Donnell it may concern is already clever. I am a giant fan of your comedy. Not physically. In that sense, I am the most ordinary proportions. I am from Istanbul, Turkey, and of all the comedy writers in the world, you are the one with an email address online through NYU or something. And yet my motives in writing you are not arbitrary. And as a national debate champion in my country, I think I'm a good judge of many things. And one such thing I've deemed sublime is your winning smile. I saw a video of you on a show called Live at five, and your gleaming teeth and glowing cheekbones lit up the studio and provided welcome relief from the unsettling, imposing colossus that was your interlocutor.

[Robert Smigel]

That would be Al Roker.

[Jim Downey]

By the way, I also want you to know how much your work has meant to me. When my great grand aunt was in hospital with stage seven lymphoma, it was touch and go for months as she went through punishing treatments. And in those dire moments, the only thing that could make her happy was when I played her the video of the individually wrapped cornflakes. That's hard to believe, but that's touching if it's true. A few years later, absolutely true. After my stepsister in law was the victim of a hit and run by a momentarily derailed funicular, she was hanging by a thread in the hospital. She is only alive today because of Tom Jones singing with Moojiber and Sirajul, which I played for her daily to lift her spirits and take her mind off the funicular, which is still at large. Several years ago, my beloved second mother, once removed, was said to be seen in public railing against the government. President Erdogan was duly notified, and she was invited as a guest of honor to a state dinner. Just as they were about to confer her with the Order of the Republic, they dragged her out of the building, zip tied her, and she was nowhere to be seen. She tells me only now that what sustained her with an unyielding resolve in the deepest dungeons of that Turkish prison, what even became her mantra, was the expression of husky idlers from elsewhere. Had she not had that turn of phrase to amuse and inspire her, she would not be alive today. In fact, she is not alive today. I'm sorry about that. But she was alive for several hours more, thanks to your work. Without her mantra, she'd never survived the persecution of those untrusty libelers. Untrusty libelers is as good as husky idlers in my book. Needless to say, I am not only grateful for what your words and deeds have done for my family, I feel empowered, secure in the knowledge that in challenging times, I can always call on the top 10 numbers list. Noodles, the wet dog drying off in slow motion, or Dog Jacks. We indeed have bologna here. That's. Or bologna. I don't know how they say it in Turkish. To pull myself or a loved one through the worst conditions imaginable. I'd be honored if you would write back and if it's not too forward, debate me. I'll go anywhere, anytime, any place. You can pick the venue and I'll pick the topic, which is resolved. Steve o' Donnell is the funniest man in America. I'll take the pro side. I'll gladly take the negative. Thank you for considering this. Sending love from Turkey the country. Sending love from Turkey the country. I also have a pet turkey, but he hates your work. You don't look like Crackle. Barack Kobas. Thank you.

[Boost Mobile Promoter]

Wow.

[Jim Downey]

We talked about the crackle part, so there's been some background on that.

[Robert Smigel]

For anybody who hasn't listened to We Know they have Baloney, the tiny section about Crackle. So there you go, Barack.

[Barack Kobas]

Yeah, it was amazing to hear, Yuri, that you're not only a great writer, but also a great reader, I think.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Oh, well, he can read anything.

[Robert Smigel]

Great.

[Jim Downey]

I'm 71, but I read at a 75 year old level.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Wow.

[Robert Smigel]

So, Barack, what was your ultimate goal?

[Barack Kobas]

My ultimate goal was to establish it. Just a correspondence and just say my thanks for the work and maybe hopefully ask a question.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, this is your chance.

[Jim Downey]

I am all ears.

[Barack Kobas]

So it's more of a comedy question. And I have a promising group of writers in front of me, so it should be fitting, I think.

[Robert Smigel]

Promising. We've got a future.

[Barack Kobas]

I was wondering, I noticed this pattern about my favorite comedians and comedy writers that they all love to make references to things outside of comedy to, like, literature, like philosophy, et cetera. So I was wondering if you had any external to comedy references or just things of interest in fields of thought or philosophy, et cetera.

[Jim Downey]

I think there are comics who do refer to philosophy and classics and stuff. Steve Martin used to do a lot of jokes about philosophy. One of the things I bonded with Letterman on was a love for like middle brow brand names, the Sears Die Hard battery, and, you know, some object that is from your. Your grocer's dairy case.

[Robert Smigel]

Go ahead, Jim.

[Jim Downey]

Well, I was just going to say,

[Steve O'Donnell]

Barack, that one thing that I'd always observed. There's a couple of things I've observed about interests that are common to comedy writers, or at least not necessarily every comedy writer. But this way more prevalent among comedy writers and the general public. One of them is an ability to. To do little cartoon caricatures. Is about half of all the comedy writers I've known are pretty good at that. I don't have to be. But the other thing is an interest in serial killers was extremely common to the point where I've been involved with writing tables at Saturday Night Live, for example, where when we would take a break from doing rewrites and we would just talk about different serial killers and people could chat very knowledgeably about the current state of the zodiac investigations. There were half of the writers at SNL were very up to date on that sort of thing. So, I mean, they're great.

[Robert Smigel]

So that's comedy writers and board housewives share that.

[Jim Downey]

Yes. I would mention Kevin Curran, who worked at the Simpsons and Letterman. He actually owned a painting by John Wayne Gacy. The serial killer who would often dress as a clown.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Jim Downey]

Named Pogo.

[Steve O'Donnell]

So any of those compend like any of those books by the different FBI profilers like Robert Ressler or Jack Douglas. I would recommend you picking up one of those books and you'll instantly have something in common with at least half the comedy writers than I know.

[Robert Smigel]

If you want to bond with comedy writers. Jim's saying, if I Gotta get it, you know, Be up on your serial killers.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Gotta up your game when it comes to serial killers. If you actually yourself became a serial killer, wow, you'd be superstar.

[Jim Downey]

That's your movie writers.

[Robert Smigel]

We talk about you all the time. Yeah, Rock. Would you like to read Steve o' Donnell's response to you?

[Barack Kobas]

Yeah, I'll go. Okay. Hello, Burak. Thank you for your very kind letter. It was quite remarkable. I'm barely aware of any particular fans of mine, foreign or domestic, let alone one from Asia Minor. You certainly are well versed in comedy history. And if I may offer a professional compliment, your note was really, really well written. The stories about your colorful family members were very funny. And if they are based on real life heartache, more spectacular for that. I'm glad that the Internet provides so many podcasts and programs, old and new, for the pleasure of people like you and I. It helps make life bearable. Good luck to you. You seem destined to be a writer. Yes, a wonderful and God awful life. My best to all your family. Even their various predicaments and problems seem hilarious. Oh, I suspect you were putting me on a wee bit. Your fan too, Steve o'.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Donnell.

[Jim Downey]

Oh, well, that's very nice. I should explain that I wasn't quite aware of the premise of this podcast. I really was responding to your note. So the fact that I could praise. I'm sure it had many inherent intrinsic great qualities. But the fact that you had an all star team helping you, I noticed it. But I would say that from my perspective, it's like getting Lennon and McCartney to help write a fan letter to Ringo.

[Steve O'Donnell]

Well, we didn't really give Barack much content. It was more like guideposts, I would say.

[Jim Downey]

Well, well done this in there.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Barack is very funny in his own right and did contribute multiple jokes here. And he also wrote some very funny weekend update jokes.

[Steve O'Donnell]

For real?

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, yeah. That he read to us. And I think it's only right that Barack bombard you with update jokes for days to come.

[Jim Downey]

I would love to hear some.

[Robert Smigel]

I don't think he's prepared today. Barack, thank you for coming in. Do you have any other last wishes before Steve changes his email address? I'm kidding.

[Barack Kobas]

Just. Just keep it accessible for just a couple of weeks more and I'll just try to send you some jokes and then you can just block me for all time.

[Robert Smigel]

Steve teaches?

[Jim Downey]

Yes, I think that is partly why you were able to get the email. But that's wonderful. By the way. I used to give my NYU students when I was Trying to give them an assignment that would be provocative. Like they would do mountain out of a molehill. But I like doing molehill out of a mountain. And I'd give them the Change bank commercial.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Oh, yeah.

[Jim Downey]

Which is so low key and so reasonable and so calm. And it was just a different way of doing comedy and very, very downyesque.

[Robert Smigel]

Barack, what was the first type of comedy that got you inspired?

[Barack Kobas]

When I was 12 or 13, the YouTube algorithm was very different and it would just randomly recommend me sketches that Monty Python did. I think that was just a moment that broke my brain, I think.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, I would say, right.

[Steve O'Donnell]

That for me was always the acme. I mean, I'm old enough that I actually knew beyond the fringe before Monty Piper came along. But yeah, those guys. Beyond the fringe in terms of the use of language, you should look up a sketch called the Great Train Robbery by Beyond the Fringe. It's Peter Cook and Alan Bennett. That's just. To me, that's the Rosetta stone of. Of comedy. For me.

[Robert Smigel]

I don't think I've seen it.

[Steve O'Donnell]

All the Monty Python stuff is genius.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's it. We did it. We did it again. Thank you, Barack.

[Steve O'Donnell]

That was a great letter.

[Jim Downey]

Barack, you dared to try something.

[Barack Kobas]

You could say, I had a little help, but I'm just delighted that you could just read it.

[Jim Downey]

Yes, I was pleased to get it from all of you, even if it was a sort of sideways slap at me for being obscure. Hey, he started it from the other side of the earth.

[Robert Smigel]

I'll just say on the record that sketch comedy writers are the most unsung writers I think there are, because they write for a collective and their material is never identified individual. The only reason I became at all well known was because of my cartoons, because they put my name next to something and this guy, this guy over here. Now, finally you're getting your due. Thanks in part to Paul Thomas Anderson.

[Dave from Indianapolis]

Yeah,

[Robert Smigel]

you'll see when we go downstairs and he walks into his limo, there's teenage girls just waiting, screaming, thanks for listening or whatever the hell you did and see you next time. Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends is a production of I Heart Media and Big Money Players, created by Michelle Sack Smigel, who executive produces with her loving husband Robert. Produced by Frank Stinky Smiley, executive producer for I Heart Jana Cagle video producer Daniel Goodman. Edited by Robert Ash Humor Me Theme song composed and sung by Tayzon Day. Special thanks to Worldwide Pants and Walter Kim. Don't forget to subscribe and follow to get new episodes of Humor Me each week and while you're there, rate and review the show. That is, if you liked it. If you didn't, this conversation never happened and we'll see you next week.

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