Ellie Kemper and Michael Koman

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends

Episode: Ellie Kemper and Michael Koman

Date: June 26, 2026
Host: Robert Smigel
Guests: Ellie Kemper, Michael Koman, Frank Smiley, Cindy Crawford, Megan Hudson
Purpose: A caller seeks help making couples therapy sessions funnier and more effective, with comedic "punch-up" from the panel.

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Episode Overview

This week's episode focuses on comedy’s role in everyday challenges, specifically how to bring humor into couples therapy. Host Robert Smigel, along with panelists Ellie Kemper, Michael Koman, and Frank Smiley, help a listener, Megan Hudson, find ways to express herself and gain “the upper hand” in therapy with her husband. The episode weaves personal anecdotes, playful banter, and thoughtful advice into a conversation that’s both insightful and lighthearted.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Art of “Winning” Couples Therapy

[02:26–04:45; 29:43–32:24]

• Caller Megan Hudson introduces her predicament: her husband is eloquent and open in therapy, while she struggles to express herself and wants to "win" at therapy. The panel immediately seizes on the idea of "winning" as both funny and a sign that maybe couples therapy isn’t going as planned.
  • Robert Smigel: "I love the concept of winning a couples therapy." [02:45]
  • Michael Koman: "That is a sign the marriage should end." [02:51]

2. Freewheeling Format and Guest Introductions

[04:04–07:38]

• Smigel confesses to being "less prepared than ever," setting a spontaneous tone.
• Ellie Kemper and Michael Koman riff about the show’s chaotic energy, joking about targeting "gamblers and wrestlers" as their niche audience.
  • Ellie Kemper: “The gamblers in the audience might be thrilled by the idea that this might not repay their time investment.” [05:07]
• Compliment protocol: the group lightly mocks the "old white men complimenting each other" podcast trope.

3. Legendary Triumph Story and Getting Arrested

[07:23–18:11]

• Smigel and Koman recount getting (almost) arrested while filming for Triumph at the 2004 Republican National Convention in NYC. Ellie Kemper describes the chaos, zip ties, and the near-miss of spending 48 hours in jail.
  • Ellie Kemper: “I would have been sitting in the back of this van. A real protester would have started screaming…His hepatitis blood would start squirting on my face...” [17:16]
  • Robert Smigel: “I just want people to understand in advance because you have many other podcast options that aren’t as freewheeling.” [04:59]
• Frank Smiley heroically intervened to get Michael released.

4. Honesty and Humor in Marriage

[18:19–25:46]

• The group dives into what it means to be married to someone funny, and how shared (or unshared) senses of humor affect relationships.
  • Ellie Kemper: “That is like a double life or something.” [20:52] (on couples who don’t find each other funny)
  • Michael Koman: “But stories of your youth and before you knew each other, are those stories always vomited out?” [18:39]
• Personal anecdotes about suspicion, searching each other's phones, and the importance of being friends before dating.

5. Introducing the Knock-Knock Problem: Megan’s Therapy Conundrum

[29:43–]

• Megan explains her therapy dilemma: her husband is an over-communicative musician, she freezes, and feels like she “loses” every session.
  • Megan Hudson: “When we’re in therapy, he explains his feelings beautifully… and I freeze...” [30:01]
• Discussion about perceptions of therapy—maintenance vs. repair, stalling vs. salvaging, and the sometimes ominous “couples therapy curse.”

6. Mining the Relationship for Comedy

[35:17–38:32]

• The panel explores the actual “material”: differing ideas of relaxation, work habits, and communication styles between Megan and her husband.
  • Megan: “He’s a musician… I run my own business, I coach women...” [38:00]
  • Robert Smigel: “You want me to open up, but you can’t close your mouth.” [56:55] (pitching a joke for therapy)

7. Validation, Venting, and “Winning” with Words

[41:17–43:15]

• Validating your partner’s feelings as comedy gold: “I hear you”, “That sounds hard”, and “That makes sense” become both real advice and comedic material.
  • Michael Koman: “Simple validation… instead of saying don’t feel that way, you say, oh, yeah, that sounds hard. It’s so easy.” [42:11]

8. The Dilemma: Are the Jokes for Her Husband or the Therapist?

[43:53–44:32]

• Debate whether humor in therapy helps or distracts.
  • Robert Smigel: “…the therapist isn’t going to be like, I don’t agree with her, but she made my sides ache.” [44:17]
• Visual gags (bringing a crowbar to therapy to open up space for talking) are floated.
  • Ellie Kemper: “You could bring a crowbar and say, maybe I can wedge myself into the space you left me to talk.” [44:32]

9. Megan’s Husband: Hairy Go-Go Dancer, Musician, and Validation Machine

[48:46–55:06]

• New revelations: Megan’s husband once worked as a go-go dancer at a gay bar and is now an Americana singer with notably hairy legs.
  • Megan: “It was a gay bar… he couldn’t shave, he’s very hairy.” [49:00–49:28]
• This sparks a run of jokes about body hair, manscaping, and the prospects of shaving as a bonding activity or a cause for marital strife.

10. Actual Advice: Punchlines for Therapy

[53:00–]

• The group helps Megan brainstorm:
  • “I fully intended to open up emotionally. Then my brain hit the Windows 95 shutdown.” [53:29]
    • Megan admits this one was crowdsourced from ChatGPT, leading to good-natured dismay from the panel.
  • Frank suggests Megan create a list of “different things” her husband could say to her, inverting the validation.
  • Jewish wisdom: gentle confrontation is more respectful than blind forgiveness.

11. The Meta-Joke: Bringing Podcast Comedy into Therapy

[57:47–63:21]

• Final advice: Megan could just tell the therapist and her husband that she reached out to comedians for help, making the quest for humor itself the icebreaker.
  • Michael Koman: “If I was Adam [her husband], that would make me think, what have I been doing that … someone felt the need to reach out for humor just to get a word in?” [58:24]
  • The group contemplates assembling the “finest minds” to write the Ultimate Couples Therapy Joke—a “We Are the World” style writers’ room.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ellie Kemper: “We’re trying to out-Drew each other.” [38:44] (on the panel veering into Dr. Drew-like territory)
• Robert Smigel: “You want to win? You want us to help you write material?” [37:03]
• Michael Koman: “Just say, 'That’s hard.' Maybe that’s all you need. Give him a few words here and there.” [42:45]
• Frank Smiley: "It’s a form of respect to confront people with issues that are bothering you. … That’s actually a very Jewish thing." [55:46]
• Robert Smigel, re: Megan’s husband’s constant validation: “Maybe if you gave a list of different things he could say that were funny….” [55:19]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:26] – Megan introduces her therapy challenge.
• [04:04–05:36] – Panel riff on show’s freewheeling, off-the-cuff format.
• [07:23–18:11] – Arrest story at the RNC with Triumph.
• [29:43–31:08] – Megan’s original voice message played.
• [35:17–38:32] – Delving into relationship quirks ripe for humor.
• [41:17–43:15] – The “simple validation” segment.
• [44:32] – Crowbar as a prop/joke for therapy sessions.
• [48:46–49:28] – Megan’s husband’s go-go dancer anecdote.
• [53:29] – Megan’s ChatGPT joke revealed.
• [57:47–63:21] – Discussion about bringing the podcast’s humor into therapy; the “meta-joke”.

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Tone, Dynamics & Final Thoughts

• Tone: Playful, improvisational, self-deprecating, supportive, and meta-aware.
• Panel Chemistry: The episode thrives on spontaneous banter, inside jokes about old podcast tropes, and willingness to poke fun at each other’s insecurities.
• Advice Quality: While much is tongue-in-cheek, real wisdom comes through about honesty, listening, negotiation, and the sometimes-unexpected places where relationship breakthroughs can happen.
• Memorable Moment: The lively “hairy go-go dancer” back-and-forth and the idea that sometimes, simply seeking comedic help is a breakthrough in itself.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Inviting humor into stressful or vulnerable situations like couples therapy, if done with empathy and self-awareness, can break stalemates and encourage authentic connection.
• Sometimes the attempt to “win” in a relationship is in itself the joke—and the antidote is learning to listen, validate, and laugh together, not at each other.

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“Humor Me” is at its best blending real, messy human experiences with a willingness to fail gloriously in pursuit of a laugh—and maybe, unexpectedly, some wisdom.

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Transcript

[Robert Smigel]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Kal Penn]

Guaranteed Human.

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[Frank Smiley]

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[Michael Koman]

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[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

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[Megan Hudson]

I just started couples therapy with my husband and you know, when we're in therapy, he Explains his feelings beautifully and he's very eloquent. I freeze and you help me write some material I can bring to therapy. I want to beat my husband at therapy.

Hi.

[Robert Smigel]

I love the concept of winning a couple's therapy.

[Kal Penn]

I love that of beating.

[Michael Koman]

Beating her husband at it.

[Robert Smigel]

That is a sign that the marriage should end. Let's write down five things that you want, points that you'd like to make.

[Megan Hudson]

I have an example. I fully intended to open it up emotionally. Then my brain hit the Windows 95 shutdown.

[Michael Koman]

Is this something you wrote?

[Megan Hudson]

This is chat.

[Cindy Crawford]

Oh, chat.

[Michael Koman]

GPT.

[Megan Hudson]

It's a robot. It's not.

[Robert Smigel]

You know, I understand. I just like the vote of confidence that, like, while we're trying to do this, like, on the side. Yeah. You know. No, that's great. Oh, I got an idea.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Robert Smigel]

You guys go to the Kill Tony show and you get up on stage and tell jokes about your husband. We write a monologue. You know, I mean, that might have even more impact than doing it in couples therapy.

[Ellie Kemper]

I love that idea.

[Megan Hudson]

That's an idea.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. It is technically an idea. Humor me.

[Michael Koman]

My wit is lacking to the nth degree.

[Robert Smigel]

Humor me.

[Michael Koman]

Friends and wings were both Must see tv. Hello,

[Robert Smigel]

it's me, Robert, from television. And on today's edition of Humor Me, we're going to talk to someone in couples therapy. So it seemed logical to me to invite a couple, but not just any couple. A couple that's, like, really funny and good guests. And I just want to warn you that I am less prepared today than any show I've done, and that's saying a lot. But last night I taped a show at San Francisco Sketch Fest. So I just want to warn the audience that today's show will likely be much more freewheeling, would you say? And I was.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah, I think. I think it's gonna be extremely freewheeling. More freewheeling than people might like.

[Robert Smigel]

That's why I'm warning. I think that's responsible because people, when they tune into podcasts, they should know

[Ellie Kemper]

when they're getting into this exactly what they're going to be hearing.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Exactly.

[Michael Koman]

Thought out.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. This might. You know what else it might be? No holds barred.

[Michael Koman]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

And I just want people to understand in advance because you have many other podcast options that aren't as freewheeling.

[Ellie Kemper]

But the gamblers in the audience might be thrilled by the idea that this might not repay their time investment.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, that's true. The wrestlers also might be excited to hear that there are no holds barred.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes.

[Michael Koman]

So I think the wrestlers and the gamblers.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think two niche audiences like that put together, I think would make iheart feel very good about.

[Michael Koman]

I think so.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

Their faith in this.

[Robert Smigel]

Good, good. Okay. Well, this is an example of how freewheeling it is.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Because I lost my train of thought. That's. That's a subset of Free wheelery.

[Ellie Kemper]

Have we gotten already to the part of the schedule where Robert and guests develop rapport?

[Robert Smigel]

No. Okay. No. Jesus.

[Ellie Kemper]

I don't want to skip to that.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I don't want to take it easy.

[Robert Smigel]

Thank you for reminding me to relate

[Ellie Kemper]

to you in any way.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, thank you for reminding me to develop a report. Holy. So we're talking to Michael Komen, who I've worked with on many projects. One or two of them has succeeded, but primarily Late Night with Conan o', Brien, where Michael wrote the sketch that won the lone writing Emmy for Late Night with Conan o'.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Brien.

[Ellie Kemper]

What a kind thing to say.

[Robert Smigel]

Parody of studio.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, my God.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think you're giving me too much credit. That was a very nice compliment that they submitted that episod. I wouldn't say that.

[Robert Smigel]

That I'm gonna cut the self effacing part of it.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Yeah, cut it out.

[Ellie Kemper]

You have to say it.

[Robert Smigel]

No, I know, I know.

[Ellie Kemper]

Sit here in silence and be.

[Robert Smigel]

And be complimented. I understand. I really do. On this show, we try to have a rule like minimizing the complimenting because 90% of podcasts are old white people complimenting other old white people.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yes. If we can take the compliments for granted. We're all here. We chose to sit down in front

[Robert Smigel]

of microphones together in the beginning of the show. That it's going to be compliment packed and freewheeling. Michael Coleman, also one of the greatest writers I've ever depended on for Triumph stuff.

[Ellie Kemper]

I'm worried that things are freewheeling, that your security blanket is self effacement. So don't. You don't have to. This is more than necessary for me. Thank you.

[Robert Smigel]

It's not just you, though. It's for all the people who've written with Triumph. There's a million things Michael and I could talk about in terms of our triumph history. But you may know that I got arrested a couple of years ago working for Stephen Colbert. Me and a bunch of people got arrested while we were doing a triumph. But 18 years earlier, 2004, believe it or not, Columbia Pictures wanted to do a Triumph movie where I was covering the presidential election. They bailed on it. But before they bailed on it. We covered the Republican convention and Michael Bloomberg was the mayor of New York and he was very. He inherited the Giuliani self consciousness about crime. Giuliani knocked down crime and Bloomberg was determined to keep it that way and also price poor people out of the city. But there was a huge march of the opposition, the Democrats.

[Ellie Kemper]

It was Republican, maybe Democrats. Really. It was, I was told, anarchist. Well, but whatever they call it.

[Robert Smigel]

So we're, we're making fun of people. You know, I'm talking to the craziest people and I'm. Triumph's holding a microphone and then he switches it to a dildo and the person doesn't know kind of jokes we were doing back then.

[Ellie Kemper]

What did you win?

[Cindy Crawford]

Which war?

[Unknown Male Guest]

World War II. You know how long they last?

[Robert Smigel]

That's 10 years.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

10 years.

[Unknown Male Guest]

10 years.

[Robert Smigel]

And they swore we won. Which war are we talking about now?

[Unknown Male Guest]

But George Bush won this one about this being a center. But we don't show up for what, a year now? Does he ever vote there? Riding around, collecting money? They say you go from one place to another, you can get money to. Does he have a vote? Yeah, yeah, he's fighting. He gets a lot of money.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Keep talking.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I think he's a wonderful man, kind of. He's voting against the other people. You bet he is voting against the other.

[Robert Smigel]

He was belting against the other. And he flip flopped on Iraq. He flip flopped on that issue.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Kerry don't go up the boat. He don't go up the boat. Is he working here? Is he on the wages now? He's a lazy son of a gun. Is he making money now?

[Robert Smigel]

He ain't making no money. Not a speck of money. And we're having a great time. And then we walk, we walk from Madison Square Garden up 34th street and then up.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, the plan, the reason that we were going there and because there was

[Robert Smigel]

going to be a protest outside Aladdin.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, specifically, yes, because they wanted delegates for the Republican convention.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes, they were attending Aladdin. So we're like, this will be fun. Maybe we'll see some Republican delegates. So we get close to there and as we're approaching, I think we saw like somebody being tased on like 50th street and there was all this scaffolding, which is a typical New York thing.

[Ellie Kemper]

My memory, we're at like Broadway and

[Robert Smigel]

45th, something like that. Wherever Aladdin was playing. Frank, you're a theater geek.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

The Helen Hayes. The Helen Hayes. They formally known as the Brooks Athensko. Yeah, it was

[Unknown Female Guest]

Frankenstein.

[Robert Smigel]

Gilbert Godfrey. What'd you say? I saw Andy get your gun there. Andy, get your gun. Mary Martin. I'll tell you, Tyne Steely was the best gypsy. Okay. Sorry, I go, Tyne.

[Starbucks Ad Voice]

Bet.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Patty.

[Robert Smigel]

And I'm sorry. Audra. Audra's fourth.

[Michael Koman]

Good.

[Frank Smiley]

Freewheeling. This is good free.

[Robert Smigel]

This is part of the free willery.

[Michael Koman]

They'd been warned, so.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah, you were.

[Robert Smigel]

So Mike got arrested. Here's what happened.

[Michael Koman]

He got arrested?

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. I never told you this.

[Michael Koman]

No.

[Robert Smigel]

We had a wedding to plan. I didn't know. What are you talking about? I covered myself in corduroy jackets.

[Michael Koman]

Wait, what happened?

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, so, well, they threw.

[Ellie Kemper]

They threw netting around us, and then they immediately.

[Robert Smigel]

The police throw netting around our area.

[Michael Koman]

What am I missing? Why. Why were people being tased on the street?

[Robert Smigel]

Because they were protesting.

[Michael Koman]

Oh.

[Ellie Kemper]

And just new people were running around. And Michael Bloomberg did not want to embarrass the city.

[Robert Smigel]

He wanted to run a pristine convention. So they way overdid it.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

And in this case, we're just like, Michael and I and Tom Giannis, another writer, very funny writer, and a bunch of, like, tourists. And we just.

[Ellie Kemper]

It was just people. There was a group. There was a little group of protesters that ran up Broadway and took a hard left. And then the netting went up.

[Michael Koman]

And then.

[Ellie Kemper]

Then just a bunch of people were.

[Robert Smigel]

And then they. They caught. They put the netting up on one side.

[Michael Koman]

The netting, like. The netting. Like, I can't.

[Ellie Kemper]

What, you couldn't step off the curb? Like, I couldn't cross the street.

[Robert Smigel]

But then they put the netting on the other side of the scaffolding. So we were trapped.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Robert Smigel]

We were trapped. And we're just sitting there waiting, like, what's going to happen? And then one cop, and I'm holding

[Ellie Kemper]

a Triumph in a Duane Reade bag.

[Robert Smigel]

In a Duane Reade bag. Which is all he deserves, all he's ever deserved.

[Michael Koman]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

And we. We are covered with his netting, and I guess one or two cops come in finally, after waiting at least 15 minutes.

[Ellie Kemper]

But I'm saying that there's like, 15 people at least.

[Robert Smigel]

I think there were more like 25. Literally.

[Ellie Kemper]

It was really tight, and there's a.

[Unknown Male Guest]

So.

[Ellie Kemper]

And they started just picking people out.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, Tom and I were next to each other, and Tom had a camera, so he said, I'm media. And he said. And he's with me.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Megan Hudson]

He tried.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

And they let us go. And Michael was sort of like, on the other.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah, I was all the way in the back.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Were you?

[Robert Smigel]

But I didn't have the presence of mind to say he's with us, too.

[Michael Koman]

That.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, there's a lot to think about.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah. I want to unpack that.

[Starbucks Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Did you remember he was there wheeling.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, Go back to that.

[Ellie Kemper]

It was an incredible. I mean, it's one of the things where you really understand what you really are.

[Robert Smigel]

We watched from, like, the opposite corner to see if they were gonna let Michael out.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

We got out, and. Oh, but Michael's there, and I.

[Michael Koman]

And nobody tried to go back to get him or anything?

[Robert Smigel]

Well, we weren't. We were afraid to go back.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, okay.

[Robert Smigel]

Scary.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Well, it also.

[Ellie Kemper]

It didn't seem. It didn't occur to me that they would want me. I just. I thought, like, well, they must know who they're looking for, and this will get sorted out, and eventually the net will come up and I'll go on my way. So. I just remember this one guy. He kind of, like, you're picking out a puppy. He took his pick, and he pointed at me and said, you, Michael?

[Michael Koman]

I never knew. Does your mom know this?

[Ellie Kemper]

I don't think so. This is not a proud story. What am I gonna tell you?

[Robert Smigel]

What do you mean, it's not?

[Ellie Kemper]

Because it is proud story.

[Michael Koman]

You're.

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course, you know, when you. When these experiences happen.

[Michael Koman]

Of course you did.

[Ellie Kemper]

And I always think, you know, you fantasize in retrospect, that you're gonna speak up for yourself and tell them that you're.

[Michael Koman]

No, I disagree.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think I just kind of was like, okay, here I go. And I walked up, and the guy took me, and I probably said something like, you were leaving. I'm not very. Not here to. Yeah, but I thought he was.

[Frank Smiley]

I remember that you. I think you wet yourself.

[Michael Koman]

I.

[Ellie Kemper]

That sounds like that's a rumor that

[Robert Smigel]

got started that you showed yourself.

[Michael Koman]

It looked like wet, but it was.

[Robert Smigel]

I saw people doing this.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

That was before any of this happened, Frank. But the police officer who chose me.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Zip.

[Ellie Kemper]

Tied my hands behind my back, and I still had to.

[Unknown Female Guest]

What was triumph?

[Michael Koman]

I was just gonna say the Dwayne Reed bag. What was.

[Ellie Kemper]

I know.

[Robert Smigel]

I was trying to explain about triumph. I have to admit.

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course, I was more concerned with Triumph. I was telling him, like, I have a celebrity puppet in a Duane Reade bag. Please don't let anything happen. And he was like, you can keep your bag. And he marches me up to a line of buses, and they were just ready to take whatever number of people fit on these buses.

[Frank Smiley]

Wow.

[Ellie Kemper]

Down to some central processing unit in battery park, probably. I kept trying to talk my way out of it, like, very politely being so mild that he'll just say. And he just stopped listening to me at a certain point. It just didn't matter to him. And then Frank Smiley, hero, went to my office on 55th street, and I think you found my ID and you ran back down and you showed like, the person who was in charge that I was with the media.

[Frank Smiley]

There was not one New York City cop who wanted to save you, who wanted to let you go. They were all like, forget it, he's going. And then one female.

[Robert Smigel]

Yes, there you go.

[Frank Smiley]

Had a heart.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah.

[Frank Smiley]

But to be honest, when you look at Michael Coleman, he's very entitled.

[Ellie Kemper]

No, I look like everything this guy would ever want to arrest.

[Michael Koman]

His nose is up in the. It's like up in the air. Like he's trying to look for something on a hygiene.

[Frank Smiley]

I mean, you look at him and you want to throw him in the hooscab.

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course, I look like a little

[Frank Smiley]

from San Diego, from La Jolla, from

[Michael Koman]

the beaches, the white beaches of La Jolla.

[Ellie Kemper]

This little piece of gentrification just reeks of entitlement. The manhole cover I was standing on while I was zip tied going up in value. I think I looked like a pampered little troublemaker who was there. Squirt something at Aladdin delegate. And I was getting what I deserved. But you had a really good instinct to talk to that woman because she listened to you and told the guy to untie me and he cut the zip tie. And he was really angry about it. And he said, what about my collar? So they had like a quota. And I think he was like. He got paid less or something because they had to let me go.

[Robert Smigel]

Jesus.

[Ellie Kemper]

And then she. And you asked her what would have happened to me, and she said, well, he probably would have been out in like 48 hours.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, my gosh, Michael.

[Robert Smigel]

People were detained for longer than that, but Frank got him out. And then the reunion was very emotional. I'm talking about between me and Triumph

[Ellie Kemper]

and the Duane read back.

[Robert Smigel]

You do Easy, easy.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, Robert always walked around. I wonder, if you did get locked

[Frank Smiley]

up by the pier, would you have survived that?

[Ellie Kemper]

This is what I. I've said this before, but this is what I truly believe would have happened. I would have been sitting in the back of this van. A real protester would have started screaming and kicking at the little metal grate in front of the driver and started banging his head against it because his hands were tight against his back. His hepatitis blood would start squirting on my face, and I would have. I would have started writhing around and screaming, hold on. He was totally disassociated when I came out. I would have been in like a

[Robert Smigel]

cat at the Denied you the AIDS cocktail.

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course they did. Which they used to carry on their

[Michael Koman]

belts,

[Robert Smigel]

only for Republicans with aids.

[Ellie Kemper]

It really was dramatic. I mean, they were about to walk me onto the bus when Frank got this. This person to release me once he

[Unknown Male Guest]

got in the bus.

[Frank Smiley]

Next in line.

[Ellie Kemper]

He was the next one. Yeah.

[Cindy Crawford]

Yikes.

[Michael Koman]

Well, thank you.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah. Well, I'm not so sure.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah, let's see.

[Robert Smigel]

Let's see how the podcast goes.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

We see how grateful we are to Frank.

[Michael Koman]

But what an example of marriage that you keep discovering things about your partner

[Robert Smigel]

that is crazy that you've never told her.

[Michael Koman]

There's so many things, Robert, that I don't. That I only find out when we're with another person.

[Ellie Kemper]

I kind of compartmentalized.

[Michael Koman]

Do you have that with Michelle? Like.

[Frank Smiley]

No.

[Robert Smigel]

We are just. We vomit everything out to each other constantly.

[Michael Koman]

Michael has this.

[Robert Smigel]

We unburden all the time.

[Michael Koman]

But stories of your youth and before you knew each other, are those stories always vomited out? Because Michael's like. Well, you know Michael. Well, he has a treasure trove of interesting stories from before I knew him and that. That come out and some traumatic, some not traumatic.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, that's nice of you to say.

[Michael Koman]

Well, I don't know if it's a compliment. It's just an observation.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah, Well, I don't know.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ellie Kemper]

A bookshelf. Just producer.

[Robert Smigel]

Frank, you have a camera on you, I hope.

[Frank Smiley]

No.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, you don't have this where things just get put away and then something has to kind of, like, rejigger them

[Michael Koman]

in order to have stories that are as interesting as yours?

[Robert Smigel]

Well, all the times I've cheated on her during the marriage, I don't think.

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course, you put it away. There's a place for that. I mean, anyone with decency doesn't.

[Robert Smigel]

Doesn't you complain their mistresses in front of them?

[Ellie Kemper]

Of course not. And you don't remember. Of course, you tell yourself it was a fantasy that I didn't actually take.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, my gosh, that reminds me. I was searching your phone once, and you had. You weren't cr. You. Yeah, you were.

[Ellie Kemper]

This is somebody else.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, okay.

[Michael Koman]

No, it was him.

[Ellie Kemper]

No, it was.

[Unknown Male Guest]

It was. It was.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think it was Chris Elliot.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, no, I think it was Robert. I was convinced Michael was cheating on me. And I was searching his. This is before we were married. And I was searching his phone. I remember this was like a three month period of just like suspicion. And I wasn't sure why it spiked then, but it did. And I was constantly searching her phone. And I remember. And then I was filming something and I was at work and I got a text from you, said CR is Robert. And I was like, oh. Cause I guess I had opened it.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh.

[Ellie Kemper]

Cause I saw that it wasn't bold,

[Michael Koman]

it wasn't new anymore.

[Robert Smigel]

And you were like, it's Carol.

[Ellie Kemper]

But obviously I was. I was responding to Robert's emails as like a woman.

[Michael Koman]

I don't know how. I don't know how. Yeah, what? Maybe he wrote you something that was like, sounds good, see you later. And I was like, oh, that must be a mistress.

[Robert Smigel]

We had a very romantic emotional attachment during the Jack and Triumph show.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, yeah, I think that is true. And so he wrote very loving notes to each other.

[Robert Smigel]

That was dramatic in many ways. That's for a typical podcast.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, that's here.

[Robert Smigel]

We got a whole gimmick.

[Cindy Crawford]

Oh my gosh.

[Robert Smigel]

There's a real person. One thing I wanted to talk about is being married to someone who's really funny. Like, I have friends who were attracted to women that didn't even find him funny.

[Unknown Male Guest]

That.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, that means very strange. That is like a double life or something.

[Michael Koman]

I don't understand that at all. That doesn't make any sense to you? I'm thinking about that now because I do know a couple like that where it's like, the guy is funny, but the.

[Robert Smigel]

And the wife doesn't get it.

[Michael Koman]

But it is just the bit like that the woman's like, shut up, you're not funny or what. Do you know what I mean?

[Robert Smigel]

I've seen that.

[Michael Koman]

And that's a dynamic too. That can be a bit Michael also. But we don't always have the same sense of. Do you and Michelle. We don't always have the same taste in like comedy, like at all or at all.

[Robert Smigel]

I mean, we do. We do.

[Michael Koman]

You guys have.

[Robert Smigel]

We'll watch a movie and we'll laugh in the same spot.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, that's interesting. Do you see it?

[Kal Penn]

I don't know.

[Ellie Kemper]

Mostly, yeah. But I do think that's one of the best feelings in the world when you're both laughing. It is a great thing. Well, you know, so just because Ellie is like, known for doing comedy when we met each other.

[Robert Smigel]

Ellie's a great writer too.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yes.

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Thank you, Robert.

[Robert Smigel]

Funny book.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, thanks, Robert.

[Robert Smigel]

Absolutely.

[Michael Koman]

That's the highest compliment in the world from you. Thank you.

[Robert Smigel]

There's other ones.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, there's other ones. Save those for later. I'm not gonna be self effacing. I'm just gonna say.

[Ellie Kemper]

But we knew each other. So we were friends for a long time before we ever dated. But when we met each other, Ellie was. She had already graduated from college, but she was interning at Conan. The first thing I ever noticed about Ellie was just this was she's funny. Just a natural.

[Frank Smiley]

Just.

[Ellie Kemper]

Just someone who. So funny. And.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

And in every. In this very, very unique way to me.

[Michael Koman]

All right, now I understand that all the self effacement, everyone's like, all right, okay.

[Frank Smiley]

But wasn't it dangerous to go out with each other when she was an intern?

[Ellie Kemper]

No, no.

[Michael Koman]

Very. Thank you for bringing that up, Frank.

[Ellie Kemper]

Glad you brought that up. Our romantic relationship didn't begin until years after El intern here. But we did also.

[Michael Koman]

I was a 25 year old intern.

[Robert Smigel]

It's not like she's a college intern.

[Michael Koman]

I was. I was the oldest intern there.

[Frank Smiley]

True. But I did see her because I lived across the street from you and I saw her at the deli when she was an intern.

[Michael Koman]

That's right.

[Ellie Kemper]

Why would you start this room?

[Michael Koman]

I don't think it's a ruin.

[Frank Smiley]

And it was in the. In the morning.

[Michael Koman]

It was in the morning and I was. And I was in just a night shirt.

[Kal Penn]

Right.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yes.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, we hung out a lot. But I don't know, I always think that's the best is if you're. I mean, it's like a cliche, but if you're genuinely friends first. There's no.

[Robert Smigel]

That wasn't the case with me and Michelle.

[Michael Koman]

Were you set up?

[Robert Smigel]

No, no. We met in Chicago and she was doing lights at a show and I just thought she was really pretty and then I found out she was funny.

[Michael Koman]

Well, isn't that great?

[Robert Smigel]

You know, we just. She was not. She's not like the most outgoing person, but neither am I. So connected with her on that level too. And it was very powerful. Michelle came up with this show, by the way. Michelle did the idea that we haven't done yet.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, now I wish that Michelle was here too, because.

[Michael Koman]

Well, she's not.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, yeah, I know, but one of my regrets, I really haven't spent a lot of time with Michelle and I always feel like she's just a very obviously like brilliant person.

[Michael Koman]

Oh my gosh.

[Ellie Kemper]

Like together you guys have organized and made happen are astonishing.

[Michael Koman]

Unbelievable.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, I think that she's very.

[Robert Smigel]

She's amazing. You know, I mean, another thing that attracted me to her was that she was funny. But she wasn't in show business and not interested in show business. She wanted to be an anthropologist.

[Michael Koman]

That's the best.

[Robert Smigel]

She got a job at the Museum of Natural History and she was moving up. She helped develop the hall of Evolution there.

[Michael Koman]

I didn't know any of that.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Koman]

And I already thought the world. Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

And Michelle, if you're listening, this is all going to be cut anyway. And then we got. We got married and a few years later we had a kid. And then a couple of years later he was diagnosed with autism. And Michelle gave everything up. We were both like figuring out what to do. And then a certain point she said, okay, you are going to make as much money as you can.

[Michael Koman]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

That's going to be the focus. And I am going to do the day to day. I got this. And she gave up her job.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think she's an incredible person.

[Robert Smigel]

She is an incredible person. She not only gave up her job, she gave up sex with me.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, my gosh.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, it was in the manuals. I didn't have time to read it. She didn't. She was like, don't.

[Michael Koman]

She's like, I got this.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, I got this. And she pointed to Emmanuel and said that it's better for the son, for the child.

[Ellie Kemper]

That's great.

[Robert Smigel]

Or daughter.

[Unknown Male Guest]

And then.

[Ellie Kemper]

And she saved you the trouble of having to educate yourself because she took care of that.

[Robert Smigel]

I just. She's like, get back to Conan and.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah, well, guys on top of. Did somebody throw their back out?

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, having sex.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

That wasn't one of the reasons. She just said it was better for Daniel. I never really bothered to understand it because I didn't wanna. I have so much respect for her.

[Ellie Kemper]

No, I was questioning her. I'm sure she knows what she's talking about.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

That she would take that hit. That she would. That she would deny herself.

[Michael Koman]

No, before the jokes. I mean, what a. What a woman.

[Frank Smiley]

What?

[Michael Koman]

That's incredible.

[Robert Smigel]

She is described mother wife, but she's really excited that she came up with this idea because. And they. That's why I'm doing it, because I think it's a great idea. So I guess we should get to it.

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[Michael Koman]

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[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

hey everyone, it's Kal Penn, host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Divergent author Veronica Roth to talk about her sprawling new novel, Seek the Traitor's Son. It's a sci fi fantasy epic about two protagonists on opposite sides of a war and a prophecy neither of them wanted.

[Unknown Female Guest]

My first book was Divergent, and when the answer came out, like because it was so popular, I think it attracted like mostly positivity. But the negativity I sucked in like a sponge. And I think it was like critiques of things I liked when I was like, you know, I was 23 and I wrote this book and it had all my like dorky little cheesy or maybe unrealistic loves in it. And I started to feel a lot of shame about those things. And so for the rest of my career I steered away from those little things that like make you feel pleasure when you read. But I also was like saying no to these parts of myself that I then was like screw it. Yeah, so that's this book.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Cindy Crawford]

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[Robert Smigel]

All right, the idea of the show we have people call in on speak by dot com. You can leave a message and me and my guests will help make whatever task you need funnier. Speech at a wedding, whatever it is in Megan's case. Well, let's listen to what Megan said.

[Megan Hudson]

Hi, Robert Spigel. My name is Megan Hudson and I love this idea for the podcast and I wanted to bring an idea that I had. I just started couples therapy with my husband and the issue apparently is that I work too much and don't open up emotionally enough, which, you know, I thought men would appreciate that, but apparently not. And you know, when we're in therapy, he explains his feelings beautifully and he's very eloquent. And I have the opposite, opposite experience where I freeze and my brain shuts down. So it looks like he's making all these great points and it's all emotionally evolved and I'm just a mute. So my question is, can you help me write some material I can bring to therapy so that I can finally win and actually have some good points? And like I want to beat my husband at therapy. And so just an idea. Thanks.

[Robert Smigel]

And here's Megan.

[Megan Hudson]

Hi.

[Robert Smigel]

I love the concept of winning a couple's therapy.

[Michael Koman]

I love that of beating, beating her husband at it.

[Robert Smigel]

That is a sign that the marriage should end. We'll be right back, Megan. I don't Know what your experience is. But almost every couple I know that has gone to couples therapy has ultimately broken up.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think. So. I. I think.

[Robert Smigel]

Right.

[Kal Penn]

I don't know.

[Michael Koman]

I don't know anyone who's gone. I really don't really.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Kal Penn]

Do you?

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

That have not been married.

[Ellie Kemper]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

That have had long relationships, and then they go into couples therapy. And a lot of times, I think one is trying to salvage and one is trying to just avoid having to confront.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think it's that usually it's. This is something where one person has firmly decided to end the relationship, and then as a gesture, they agree

[Unknown Male Guest]

to

[Ellie Kemper]

go to this thing that the other person is hoping is going to fix everything.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

And so it's just this, like. I think it slows down the process. People listening who are in couples therapy or they subscribe to it. And I don't want to offend them because it probably does work for some people.

[Robert Smigel]

I'm sure it does. I just don't have the experience in my mind.

[Ellie Kemper]

It is like, when you end a relationship and it's really dramatic. You want to be able to say, well, I tried everything.

[Michael Koman]

Megan, how.

[Ellie Kemper]

I'm sorry, how's it going?

[Michael Koman]

You've been married. You've been married how long?

[Megan Hudson]

Three months. We got married in October.

[Robert Smigel]

Megan, do you know any other people, have any friends who've done couples therapy?

[Megan Hudson]

I would say the people that we hang out with kind of view it as maintenance for the relationship.

[Robert Smigel]

Maintenance. Okay.

[Megan Hudson]

Versus, like, going when something's wrong.

[Michael Koman]

Exactly. Right.

[Robert Smigel]

That's interesting.

[Michael Koman]

Noah didn't build the ark when it started to rain. Like, isn't that the saying, what made

[Ellie Kemper]

you guys agree to go and who reached out to the therapist first?

[Megan Hudson]

I might have reached out first.

[Ellie Kemper]

And so bringing a third person into it felt like it would just, like, allow you to talk to each other.

[Megan Hudson]

I would say more so me. He's very good at, like, knowing how he feels, what to say, where it's coming from. Very well spoken. And for me, it's like, grew up in a household where I didn't see healthy conflict. So, like, talking things through and, like, identifying the feelings and being this is where it's coming from is unfamiliar.

[Robert Smigel]

You described him as, like, almost like, in your mind, the woman in the relationship.

[Megan Hudson]

Because he's more willing to joke about it. But, yes, he's done a lot of. Of work on himself.

[Michael Koman]

Megan, have you been to any therapy on your own?

[Megan Hudson]

Yes, off and on.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah. No, I feel like I would get to a point where, like, cool. Five Sessions in. I'm like, okay, I'm. Goodbye. Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Good. Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah. I think we can all relate to that.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Or.

[Michael Koman]

I don't know, maybe we can't.

[Robert Smigel]

I've been in therapy.

[Michael Koman]

Never once.

[Robert Smigel]

No. I'm, like, the only person in show business that's.

[Ellie Kemper]

That's many things.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah. This is funny. I do know.

[Ellie Kemper]

Okay, well, I tried to. I went once, and then, like, two weeks went by, and I would just forget that I had the appointments.

[Robert Smigel]

Right.

[Ellie Kemper]

And then subconscious. The therapist called me one morning. She's like, are you coming in? And I said, I gotta be honest. I forgot that I ever met you. I don't. I forgot that I had an appointment. This doesn't happen in anything else. And then I started thinking, like, oh, that's a bad sign that I'm, like, blocking it out of that level.

[Robert Smigel]

Right.

[Ellie Kemper]

And she said, your problems aren't that severe. You're fine.

[Michael Koman]

But is the question what. I don't know if this is the question you were asking. What brought you to therapy in the first place?

[Megan Hudson]

We were just fighting a lot. Just like. And the fights that we were having were not productive. Just like, these circular arguments that kept happening.

[Robert Smigel]

And what is the source of the conflict? Because, you know, Frank interviewed you, and I heard things about, like, chewing with his mouth open or breathing.

[Michael Koman]

Annoying, too.

[Robert Smigel]

But that's like, Felix and Oscar stuff. And those guys worked it out. I think there must be some. Some bigger issues here, just like him

[Megan Hudson]

being a bit more anxious, me being more avoidant. So it's usually he wants to talk about something. I don't want to talk about it.

[Robert Smigel]

Why don't we talk about, like, the actual process of couples therapy and how it makes you anxious. It sounds like he's dominates the conversation.

[Megan Hudson]

He leaves space. It's just. I just don't know what to say. A lot of times, like, he'll be. And he's gotten better about it over the years, but, like, when we first started dating, it was really hard. He would just, like, go on a monologue, and I'm like, wait, go back up, like, 20 steps. Because I'm still trying to figure out that first thing that you said. Now he'll pause. But, like, even then, I just, like, my mind just, like, go blank. I'm like. I don't.

[Ellie Kemper]

I will say. I mean, it's interesting because when you say you want to beat him. If there's one thing that feel like therapy is supposed to do is be a place where both people listen to the other person.

[Robert Smigel]

Right. Funny, because then there's another man I know who was in couples therapy, and he literally told me one time, and they got divorced. And he says to me, I had some private time with the couples therapist after my wife left. And he was like, I'm right.

[Unknown Male Guest]

No.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

No.

[Ellie Kemper]

That's like telling one of your kids that they're your favorite kid.

[Robert Smigel]

I don't know if this guy, I think that was.

[Ellie Kemper]

Is fantasy.

[Robert Smigel]

He said it pretty definitively, and I couldn't believe that that was his approach or that or that someone would say that. And then it gave me an idea for a show that ended up Seinfeld had the similar idea, the marriage ref. I wanted to do a much more serious version of couples therapy where there'd be a jury.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

You know, and, like, John Lovitz would be one of the jurors, and then there'd be some serious people.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think it was kind of like radical therapy where you take both people aside and tell them both that they are completely right and watch their self esteem skyrocket and let them go off together and both be happy.

[Robert Smigel]

When you say you want to win, you want us to help you write material?

[Megan Hudson]

It's supposed to be funny. Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

You want to be funny. But what we need to do is know what you want to say and then make it funny. What would you like to say? You're away from the pressure of having to deliver it in that. In that kind of tense environment. What do you think you'd like to say now you're in a new tense environment? Podcast. The national podcast for iHeart. No, it's just us. Look at these nicest people in the world here.

[Michael Koman]

It's true.

[Robert Smigel]

Cole's mom.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly right. You're not gonna be.

[Robert Smigel]

What's the name of your other son? There's Cole, and Cole's Fun. We're having fun. No, seriously, what.

[Cindy Crawford]

What would you.

[Robert Smigel]

What do you wish you could say?

[Megan Hudson]

Well, he feels like I sometimes work too much, and I feel like he doesn't work hard enough.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, really? So I forgot. What's his job?

[Michael Koman]

He's a musician.

[Robert Smigel]

Right, He's a musician.

[Michael Koman]

And what do you. And what is your job?

[Robert Smigel]

That he doesn't work hard. That's like. And what's your job point of being a musician?

[Megan Hudson]

I run my own business. I coach women on their fitness and health.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, well, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

That sounds like a lot of work.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

Do you guys have different ideas of what a good date is?

[Megan Hudson]

He's very easygoing. He would be happy with just like, let's just Hang out and be present with each other.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah, I.

[Megan Hudson]

More so like let's go do something novel and exciting.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Robert, do you think there's some material there?

[Frank Smiley]

Do you think you should. You think you should bring in Dr. Drew?

[Ellie Kemper]

I know. I feel I'm drifting into.

[Robert Smigel]

What? Oh, no.

[Ellie Kemper]

Williams territory.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, do we need Adam Carolla? I think because we're all Dr. Drewing it up here.

[Ellie Kemper]

We're trying to outdrew each other.

[Robert Smigel]

Maybe we can role play. Who wants to be. I don't know. I don't know. Why do you want to be together? He's a musician. Man shouldn't be a musician. He's the man. He's got to have a real job. That was Adam Carolla.

[Michael Koman]

Can I ask a question about what it's like in the room? Would your husband. Does he see it in any way as a competitive sport?

[Megan Hudson]

We can both be a little competitive.

[Michael Koman]

You can see I wasn't.

[Ellie Kemper]

I'll be honest. I think Adam does see it that way. Because the way you've described him, he sounds like a bit of a motor

[Robert Smigel]

mouth and chatty caffeine. I mean, let's emasculate him while we're all together.

[Ellie Kemper]

So the second you sit down, you have an hour to talk to this person and his gums start flapping and he doesn't start. It doesn't stop till the.

[Megan Hudson]

The.

[Michael Koman]

But does your mind go draw a blank because you're nervous? Do you? I'm trying. I wonder what you can do to be more comfortable going in so that you can deliver these blows.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah, it's just my mind's still, like, catching up to, like, what? You know, like we were having an argument the other night and he's like, see, there was just like another few seconds I gave you to, like, talk, and I was like, wait, what? That didn't feel like a gap to me because I'm still, like. I'm just slower to process.

[Robert Smigel]

I can get intimidated by people who are like, mile a minute.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think I do know people and we both know people who conversation is like a one person sport.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

And I have friends who I kind of envy them because everybody feels at ease with them, but they find everything fascinating in their lives. And so that's why it's so easy for them. And I'm a little more self conscious or, I don't know, selective about what I find interesting. But, like, I have friends who are incredibly gregarious. I was on the toilet and I had eaten food, and so I'm eating food and then I'm feeling something in my stomach, so I run to the bathroom and I sit down. So I'm on the toilet.

[Ellie Kemper]

The food went down this little canal.

[Robert Smigel]

It's like a little elevator through this thing. I googled it. Like your colon.

[Ellie Kemper]

And it comes out not three hours later. This is gonna sound like I'm making it up. I was ready again,

[Robert Smigel]

but you know what I mean? Like, I have friends who can make anything entertaining.

[Megan Hudson]

I mean, he's one of those people that can just, like, talk.

[Ellie Kemper]

I thought it was just interesting that you guys have these very different ideas of what an appropriate space to let the other person respond is. And I think that is a really big deal when two people are learning how to live together. I think I did that to Ellie all the time.

[Michael Koman]

What did you do?

[Ellie Kemper]

Like, you would be talking to me, and you would take a breath.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, but you still do that.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yes, And I am doing it now. And I would dive in with my little thought, and I hadn't processed that Ellie was continually still thinking, But I often.

[Michael Koman]

And I don't want to generalize or this is gonna sound sexist. I read in the book that, like, don't women want to just be heard and not necessarily find a solution sometimes? So I wonder if Adam knows that

[Robert Smigel]

venting, that's part of being a married couple.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Person wants to vent and has no one else to do it to.

[Michael Koman]

Has no one else. That's exactly.

[Robert Smigel]

Or they want them to be a part of it.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Right.

[Michael Koman]

And not necessarily say anything back. Just. I just want to venture.

[Frank Smiley]

Don't.

[Michael Koman]

Don't just.

[Robert Smigel]

You say, yeah, believe me, I don't say anything.

[Michael Koman]

I think some things with interacting with other people can really help with therapy, such as simple validation. It's so. Because I've done this with my kids now when they're complaining about something, instead of saying like, oh, don't feel that way, if you say, like, oh, yeah, that sounds hard. Oh, my gosh, it goes over. It's so, so easy. But it sounds like with couples, too, if it's like, oh, yeah. Oh, that's hard.

[Robert Smigel]

Can you write that down?

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, just say, that's hard.

[Robert Smigel]

That sounds hard. Maybe that's all you need is to just, like, give him a few words here and there.

[Michael Koman]

Say, I.

[Robert Smigel]

No, I hear you. I use that one a lot.

[Michael Koman]

Harvard. Do you actually say that?

[Robert Smigel]

I have said I hear you. I don't do it as a perfunctory thing.

[Michael Koman]

But you mean it.

[Robert Smigel]

I mean it. Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, I hear you.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

I mean, because that's all I can think of saying at that moment. Sometimes that's like just a fucked up situation. I can do is acknowledge it, you know?

[Michael Koman]

Isn't that helpful?

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, of course.

[Michael Koman]

I think that's so helpful.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, so I hear you.

[Michael Koman]

I hear you. And that sounds hard. That.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Or.

[Michael Koman]

Or. And that's hard. That's what she said, that. No, no, I'm kidding. That's the whole thing.

[Ellie Kemper]

No, this is a good one.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, I love that.

[Robert Smigel]

That's a little condescending. Sometimes, you know, you got to be careful.

[Ellie Kemper]

It's on the delivery.

[Robert Smigel]

One is making that make sense.

[Michael Koman]

Right, right, right.

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, I. I try to give. I try to give them an extra. Like that makes sense.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, that's much better.

[Ellie Kemper]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Michael's an acting coach.

[Ellie Kemper]

If it's not offensive to give you

[Robert Smigel]

a line reading only for day to day situations.

[Michael Koman]

It's a very specific school. Yes, but what is an example of something funny you would say in therapy? That's the mission to.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, that was, in theory, the mission. Yes. And the mission of the show?

[Ellie Kemper]

Well, the thing is, you seem like such a nice person that I guess none of us want to say something that's just a joke. Well, that's actually like tricky.

[Robert Smigel]

Is like. I'm not sure it's going to move the needle in a good way other than make you feel good for a minute.

[Cindy Crawford]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Because who, who. What are the. Who are the jokes for?

[Robert Smigel]

They're for your husband's benefit more than anything.

[Megan Hudson]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

I mean, the therapist isn't going to be like, you know, I don't agree with her, but I. She made my sides ache.

[Michael Koman]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

So again, it's not a competition. But maybe, maybe if you say something funny, it will.

[Ellie Kemper]

You could bring a crowbar and say, maybe I can wedge myself into the space you left me to talk.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, Michael, that's funny.

[Ellie Kemper]

And that would be. You know, it's like just the sight of a crowbar at the therapy.

[Robert Smigel]

What's our budget? Because it sounds like we need props.

[Megan Hudson]

Props might be needed. That's funny.

[Unknown Male Guest]

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[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already. It's a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels, an actress who adapts his book into a film, and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance. It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Hsu, and it is an absolute blast.

[Unknown Female Guest]

When you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like the cat in the corner is black. In my head, it's the cat in the corner and black. Not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it, the cat in the corner is black. That's always fascinating to me how they just bring in all these different nuances and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and Every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results, and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn [e-mail]

[Robert Smigel]

at this point, Michael Komen had to drive to Pasadena to pick up one of his sons. Michael was kind enough to continue on the phone as we resumed our efforts to make Megan funny. What's your cat's name?

[Megan Hudson]

This is Penelope. She's chewing on a nail file.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice]

Hi, Penelope.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, goodness. Transfix.

[Frank Smiley]

All right.

[Robert Smigel]

Just finishing. Been here a long time. Do you need a break to eat something?

[Unknown Male Guest]

Where.

Where are you?

[Megan Hudson]

Austin.

[Robert Smigel]

Just to get a little bit more details on your husband. It says here that your husband was actually a go go dancer for her.

[Megan Hudson]

For us.

[Robert Smigel]

Is that real?

[Megan Hudson]

Yes, it is real.

[Robert Smigel]

Frank didn't dream that?

[Megan Hudson]

No.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Where did he go?

[Ellie Kemper]

Go dance.

[Robert Smigel]

Please tell me it was a gay bar.

[Megan Hudson]

It was. Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Fantastic. Did the. Did the people. Did the patrons know that he was straight?

[Megan Hudson]

I believe so.

[Robert Smigel]

Probably because he wasn't as good a dancer.

[Megan Hudson]

He's actually a great dancer.

[Robert Smigel]

He is?

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

So he's gay level.

[Michael Koman]

Come on.

[Robert Smigel]

Is that okay to stereotype a group in a positive way? Anybody want to tell me? Anyway, we're going for it. Gay people are great dancers.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Megan Hudson]

A requirement was, though, that he couldn't shave. He's very hairy. Hairy legs.

[Unknown Male Guest]

But the. The job patrons knew that he was straight.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah. I mean, it was not like it wore a sign, but what a.

[Unknown Male Guest]

What a wonderful torture. A hairy straight man who is not interested.

[Michael Koman]

Obviously.

[Unknown Male Guest]

It's the tantalizing fruit that you could never taste.

Right?

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, we're gonna do another hour on this. Okay.

[Unknown Male Guest]

What is his instrument?

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

What?

[Robert Smigel]

Went from go go dancing to his instrument?

[Michael Koman]

Easy, Michael.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I'm trying to.

[Ellie Kemper]

I'm trying to get everything.

[Robert Smigel]

He's also a musician, Is that what you're saying?

[Megan Hudson]

He's a singer.

[Robert Smigel]

He's a singer.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Wow.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Wow.

[Robert Smigel]

Country singer. I mean, you're in Austin.

[Megan Hudson]

Americana. It's not like old country, but, like, a little more edgy rock.

[Unknown Male Guest]

But he's a hairy man.

[Robert Smigel]

He's a hairy man who sings.

[Megan Hudson]

Well, they don't know from, like, the waist down, you know, like, not so hairy and chest, but, like, legs.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

Wow.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay.

[Megan Hudson]

I know you wanted that information.

[Michael Koman]

It's so weird when you think of. Because some men, I guess, just aren't hairy on their chest.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, a lot of men now, like,

[Michael Koman]

just shave it, but I don't think that is that recent?

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, it's manscaping. It's happened.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, I guess. But don't.

[Robert Smigel]

Probably be one of our sponsors.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, right. But don't some men just not have hair on their chest?

[Robert Smigel]

Or it's like most men have some hair.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Well, that could be a good sponsor, too, is kidsscaping, because sometimes there's still just a little bit of air.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, that's good. Okay, we'll get to that.

[Michael Koman]

But our task now is petscaping.

Okay.

[Robert Smigel]

Sorry. I love the idea of scaping a pet's pubic area.

[Ellie Kemper]

Oh, no.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay, so he has hairy legs. Now that he's not a Go Go dancer, he still leaves the legs hairy.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah. We're talking about this today, though. The one time where he tried to shave, and it started with, like, trying to shave his butt. And then because he's so hairy, it looked like he had, like, long stockings on. So he's like, well, I have to, like, keep going.

[Michael Koman]

Wait, how did it look like he had long stockings?

[Megan Hudson]

It just is like. It's so furry that it's so dark that, like.

[Michael Koman]

Right.

[Megan Hudson]

The contrast between his skin and the

[Robert Smigel]

hair, it's like he shaved around his butt, and then there's, like, a line of hair that's going down.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Like he was wearing chaps.

[Megan Hudson]

Yes.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

But I think that, to me, this is promising. You know, whatever happens in therapy is one thing, but if he lets you shave his full body or at least shave him from the waist down, I think that's the kind of activity that it's, like, awkward and strange, but it leads to real bonding.

[Michael Koman]

I see what you're saying, Michael.

[Robert Smigel]

Or it could lead to a huge fight.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Ellie Kemper]

But then you'll know one way or the other.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Don't waste any more time. It creates a nice crisis, and you find out if you're going to move forward or not.

[Michael Koman]

I may have lost the threat. Here is the idea that Meghan would shave Adam.

[Robert Smigel]

Michael was suggesting that even if it were awkward and unsuccessful, it would be something they did together, and you would end up now being bonding. I think you should not only do it, but you should do it in couples therapy in front of the therapist.

[Michael Koman]

Show the therapist who's in charge.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

And just say to him, hey, we've come up with something, and. Okay, I guess I'm kidding. Yeah, I was kidding.

[Ellie Kemper]

I guess I was kidding. I don't know.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I believe in this, because at the very least, it would also bring you closer to the therapist. I think by the end of this,

[Robert Smigel]

it would be the ultimate goal to bond with the therapy. Man, we are so helpful today.

[Unknown Male Guest]

All right, I would just. Just put it on the list. It's. It's an idea.

[Megan Hudson]

Don't scrap it yet. Right.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, okay. Back to trying to think of her being funny. Okay, let's write down five things that you want, points that you'd like to make.

[Megan Hudson]

Have an example. I fully intended to open up emotionally. Then my brain hit the Windows 95 shutdown.

[Robert Smigel]

Right.

[Megan Hudson]

Noise.

[Michael Koman]

You open up emotionally.

[Robert Smigel]

She wants to open up emotionally.

[Megan Hudson]

I was just giving an example of something that was like, little quips.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yes.

[Michael Koman]

And what is this something you wrote?

[Megan Hudson]

This is chat.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, chatgpt.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

I. Is that what it's known as now? Chatbot.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, so chatgpt is trying to write a joke.

[Megan Hudson]

I was typing. I was like, what are some ways we could take this?

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, I see.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

But you didn't ask for them to say a joke, or did you?

[Michael Koman]

It sounds like a joke.

[Megan Hudson]

Some angles. Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Okay.

[Michael Koman]

It shut down. Windows 95.

[Megan Hudson]

It's a robot. It's not. You know.

[Robert Smigel]

I understand. I just like the vote of confidence that, like, while we're trying to do this, like, on the side. Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

You know.

[Robert Smigel]

No, that's great. Chat. Gpting it up. Great. She's got the cat typing and stuff. What is this about? Words of affirmation on a daily basis?

[Megan Hudson]

I was just. He is very good at, like, verbal validation.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Right.

[Kal Penn]

Oh.

[Robert Smigel]

He tells her he loves her. He tells her she's great. I kind of.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Is it ever too much? Like, is it a point of.

[Robert Smigel]

Or does it feel meaningful? Or does it feel perfunctory?

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah, that's a good question. He tries to, like, he's very much, like, living gratitude.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah. That would be hard for me to reciprocate.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

Because you just. It feels like stuff that's obvious. Like, why would you be together if you didn't think this person was worth it? So you're like, why are you voicing that all the time?

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah, I think for me, it's like, get some new material.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Ooh. Ah.

[Robert Smigel]

That could be, like, a dis.

[Michael Koman]

That could be, like, a burn.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Redfin Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Michael Koman]

But a loving burn. But also, we don't want to hurt his feelings.

[Robert Smigel]

No, that's. No, but you need to make a point sometimes.

[Megan Hudson]

He'll be a good sport.

[Robert Smigel]

Maybe if you gave a list of different things he could say that were funny. Like, that could be.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, that's a great idea. So then his feelings aren't hurt.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, they might Be hurt a little.

[Unknown Male Guest]

But.

[Michael Koman]

But, but like the micro tears and muscles, then they grow stronger.

[Robert Smigel]

But you have to. Exactly. You have to risk hurting people's feelings sometimes to be honest.

[Starbucks Ad Voice]

And.

[Michael Koman]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

And you're showing. It's a form of respect to confront people with issues that are.

[Michael Koman]

Yes.

[Robert Smigel]

Bothering you as opposed to thinking. Yeah, that's actually a very Jewish thing.

[Megan Hudson]

Thing.

[Robert Smigel]

Remember when rabbi was like, so when someone has a flaw, what's the answer? We forgive them. We say we love them anyway for their flaws. And some people were just reflexively like, yeah, that sounds nice. I forgive them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, no, that's Jesusy. He didn't say that. Right.

[Michael Koman]

But that was the implication.

[Robert Smigel]

He said, like, no, we're here to make the world better. And part of that is confronting people when they make a mistake.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, my gosh, I love that. I mean, it applies to so many different situations.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Right.

[Robert Smigel]

We could bring a rabbi into the couple therapy.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, no, that. You're so right. Because my impulse is to be, like, polite about it, essentially. And you're saying, no, no, no. It's okay if he's a little wounded because you're.

[Robert Smigel]

It's respect. It's saying that we feel you have the capacity to do better, you know?

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, yeah. At some point, you need to kind of get in there.

[Robert Smigel]

And I also think there's a level of condescension when you just say, yeah, it can't get better.

[Michael Koman]

I think you're so right. And I. I'm taking that for my personal life, too.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Back to the jokes.

[Michael Koman]

Well, yeah, you. Okay, so, like, the domestic stuff, the, like, chewing and that stuff is more. Not to make jokes about.

[Robert Smigel]

I mean, it could be a side joke that is part of a bigger point. Like, you want me to open up, but you can't. Close your mouth.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Something to that effect. You know, Then it gets to more meaningful jokes.

[Michael Koman]

Yeah. And you are like, maybe you have more drive and like the work area, but also he wants to have, like a romantic night out. And she's like, well, I have to work. He just wants a date night.

[Megan Hudson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Koman]

With her.

[Frank Smiley]

And he wants to. Wants to put it in the calendar. Right.

[Megan Hudson]

We're like, sex is like, planned and like, it's like, you know, he wants that. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Koman]

I've read that's. You're supposed to do that.

[Megan Hudson]

I've heard you're. That's something you're supposed to do.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

It's not in any of the autism books. Sorry.

[Michael Koman]

Carve out time for your relationship.

[Frank Smiley]

Basically.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Don't know if it's the worst idea. If you said. I was feeling so frustrated with how this is going that I reached out to a comedy podcast and I told them that I was looking for some sort of, like, humorous way to broach what I have to say in these sessions. And, like, why do you think I did that? And, like, get Adam and the therapist to just talk about you. You're the focus of this for. For a session.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, that would be a great way to, like, after a few jokes that she confesses that this is where they came from.

[Michael Koman]

Right.

[Unknown Male Guest]

If I was Adam, that would make me think, like, what have I been doing that. That somebody felt the need to reach out for. For humor. Just to get a word in.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, but I think she still needs, like, jokes before that.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Oh, right, you need the actual jokes.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, because if she just does it, it will have less impact as opposed to if she just behaves really strangely in therapy for a while. Curiosity.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Well, I mean, Robert, I think I would consider that she does the. An Adam Carolla impersonation. That's. That's a start.

[Robert Smigel]

Fine. I'll go down there and I'll teach you how to do Adam Corolla. Sorry, Austin. Oh, I got an idea.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Robert Smigel]

You guys go to the Kill Tony show, and you get up on stage and tell jokes about your husband. You write a monologue. You know, I mean, that might have even more impact than doing it in couples therapy.

[Ellie Kemper]

I love that idea.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah. Plus you'll get to see Kill Tony. Very entertaining.

[Megan Hudson]

That's an idea.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah, it is technically an idea.

[Michael Koman]

Would you ever. Would you wait. Would you ever consider doing that?

[Megan Hudson]

That is definitely very much out of my comfort zone.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Robert Smigel]

Of course.

[Michael Koman]

That's what we're here to do. Push comfort zones.

[Unknown Female Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Is that. Is this.

Is this. If you said it on stage, like, Adam and I are in couples therapy, or as he calls it, private therapy. Is that personal therapy? But I. I go, too.

[Michael Koman]

That's for the stand up set.

[Unknown Male Guest]

That would be part of the stand up set.

[Robert Smigel]

Is the goal to have. Is the goal to have Tony Hinchcliffe rip her apart? No. I'm sorry, what'd you say?

[Unknown Male Guest]

Fumbling for something.

[Robert Smigel]

No, I know it's good.

[Megan Hudson]

Adam has a goal of doing stand up this year.

[Robert Smigel]

Adam.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Robert Smigel]

He has a goal of doing stand up. Imagine if you did stand up first about him.

[Unknown Male Guest]

What a great.

What a wonderful.

That. That would be a victory.

[Michael Koman]

But that's how you beat him at therapy is. Well, I'm not sure you're beating him at therapy in that way, but you're beating him to the mic and then something. Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Unknown Female Guest]

You're not.

[Michael Koman]

You're not convinced.

[Robert Smigel]

Well, I'm trying to see how it helps the marriage.

[Michael Koman]

Well, it doesn't. It doesn't.

[Megan Hudson]

I would be voicing so he would be excited about.

[Michael Koman]

What does that mean, voicing?

[Megan Hudson]

Like speaking.

[Robert Smigel]

He really wants you to express yourself.

[Megan Hudson]

Yes.

[Kal Penn]

Hold on.

[Robert Smigel]

But you feel all this pressure in couples therapy or even at home.

[Megan Hudson]

And I also hate being put on the spot and, like, in the spotlight,

[Michael Koman]

but with standup, you wouldn't be on the spot. Cause I'm not. I'm not pushing the. But I am a little bit. You wouldn't be. You would know exactly what you were gonna say, but you would be under the spotlight. Not on the spot, but yes, under the spotlight.

[Robert Smigel]

If the jokes make a point, right?

[Michael Koman]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Then they might get his attention in a different way.

[Michael Koman]

That has to be such an artful joke. I mean, if it's going to get his attention.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Yeah.

[Robert Smigel]

Maybe it's impossible.

[Ellie Kemper]

I think you get a real lab of going.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Yes, Mike, 15 of the best.

[Robert Smigel]

What was the last thing you said

[Unknown Male Guest]

that saves a marriage? I feel like if we could get, like, some of the finest minds together to create a joke that both breaks the ice and delves so deeply into what's not being said yet.

[Robert Smigel]

Okay. Where are we going to find the finest minds, and how are we going to get them together? I mean, come on.

[Unknown Male Guest]

No, it's. Come on.

Why?

This is. It's a logistical challenge. It's going to take money, and it's

[Michael Koman]

going to be like that the night of when they sang We Are the

[Unknown Male Guest]

World to tough it out for a few years.

[Ellie Kemper]

But we're going to come up with this joke.

[Robert Smigel]

Who's kidding who? Just get the big. We just get the Big Bang theory writing staff back together.

[Unknown Male Guest]

The promise that this. This miracle quip is coming down the pike.

[Michael Koman]

But I have a question. Yeah. Is the delivery gonna be somewhat important?

[Robert Smigel]

Like, I think that's just part of the fun of this.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Okay.

[Michael Koman]

Okay.

[Cindy Crawford]

Okay.

[Frank Smiley]

Yeah.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I don't know.

[Megan Hudson]

Free wheeling, you know, freewheeling, baby. I'll just run it with one of my friends. She's a. She's a clown and an actual clown.

[Michael Koman]

Oh, that's great.

[Robert Smigel]

Good to know we have that as a resource. Then Michael's thing at the end. I brought. I consulted writers and a clown. Hear me. Are you hearing what I am doing? I don't know.

[Ellie Kemper]

I'm Telling.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I. Meghan, I really, truly believe that if just. If just telling people that you. That you did this, I don't think it requires jokes. And then they're like, where did those jokes come from? I think you just say, I chose to do this, and I stayed on the podcast for an ungodly amount of time looking for some joke.

[Robert Smigel]

I got the 400th finest minds together.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Just. I want you guys just to tell me, why do you think I did that?

[Michael Koman]

Yeah, I like that.

[Unknown Male Guest]

That would lead to a conversation that you wouldn't have had.

[Robert Smigel]

In theory, it sounds good. I just can't tell if it's a cop out.

[Unknown Male Guest]

Well, it's a cop out on my part.

[Robert Smigel]

That's what I mean.

[Unknown Male Guest]

I think it's courageous on her part.

[Robert Smigel]

I understand.

[Michael Koman]

Well, I see what you're saying.

[Megan Hudson]

I hear you.

[Michael Koman]

I hear you, I hear you. I hear you. I think it would be in service of the marriage for sure, but I'm not sure it would be the most in service to the podcast because. Right, because.

[Robert Smigel]

And that's obviously more important than your marriage.

[Michael Koman]

Well, I mean, so. And that way. Yeah, so that doesn't help us.

[Robert Smigel]

Are we allowed to fail on this show?

[Frank Smiley]

I don't think so.

[Robert Smigel]

Oh, God, I didn't read that in the contract.

[Michael Koman]

Well, you said no failing.

[Megan Hudson]

Or we could switch, and you guys can talk to Adam for, like, three hours.

[Robert Smigel]

I'm sorry.

[Megan Hudson]

Help him come up with.

[Robert Smigel]

All right, it sounds like our cue to go,

[Michael Koman]

but so. But all these are like, I was

[Robert Smigel]

gonna talk to the cat, actually, because he's, like, a neutral observer, you know? Next week on Humor Me, your next comedian goes by the name of Megan Knights.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

Everyone.

[Robert Smigel]

Here we go. Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends is a production of iHeartMedia and Big Money Players, created by Michelle Sack Smigel, who executive produces with her loving husband Robert. Produced by Frank Stinky Smiley, executive producer for I Heart Janet Cagle. Video producer Daniel Goodman. Additional material by David Cyrus, Amanda Melson, and Josh Comers. Edited by Robert Ash. Humor Me Theme song composed and sung by Tay Zonday. Don't forget to subscribe and follow to get new episodes. Episodes of Humor Me each week, and while you're there, rate and review the show. That is, if you liked it. If you didn't, this conversation never happened. And we'll see you next week.

[Kal Penn (Podcast Host)]

Hey, everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay the Audible and iheart Audiobook. Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to earsay the audible and iheart audiobook club on the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Frank Smiley]

What?

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Yeah, with all new episodes of Tyler Perry's divorce, sisters you've always liked, a little drama, plus a whole new world of movies like gladiator 2.

[Robert Smigel]

Now I'm I will control an Empire

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[Robert Smigel]

Just make sure we protect each other.

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[Robert Smigel]

Welcome to the history books.

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New home, same family. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount Plus. Subscribe now.

[Michael Koman]

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[Boost Mobile Ad Voice]

Literally.

[Kal Penn]

I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re wearable or filthy they are. Or just use arm and hammer. Deep Clean. It's made for real life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry, the quote right way Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean it is from the number one list. Liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with arm and hammer Deep Clean number one claim based on total wash loads sold.

[Robert Smigel]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Kal Penn]

Guaranteed Human.