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- [00:02]
Robin
Hey there, it's Robin from PRX and I'm very excited to tell you about the multi award winning podcast Never Post the Most online show in the Radiotopia Family, but not in an Annoying Way have you ever wondered why is the Internet like that? That's the question the folks at Never Post try to answer in each episode. But again, and I cannot overstate this, not in an annoying way, more in a loving, tailored, smart, sonically experimental way, the team Never Post wonders why the Internet and the world because of the Internet is the way it is, covering the news online and providing further analysis of why the deep ideas contained therein are worth exploring. New Luddism, Etsy Witches, AI as the dominant aesthetic of New American Fascism. The team talks to journalists, anthropologists, lawyers, theorists, linguists and more about our current tech and media moment from PRX's Radiotopia Never post a Podcast for and about the Internet Episodes each week at Neverpo St. And wherever you find your pods.
- [01:07]
Alex Goldman
This episode of Hyperfixed is brought to you by Quince. Quince. A word that sounds like wince. A thing that you do when you're in pain or generally not doing well. But that's not what you'll be doing with Quince. With Quince, you'll be straight vibing on organic cotton sweaters, polos for every occasion, lighter jackets to keep you warm in changing seasons. The list goes on. And since Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middleman so you're not paying for a brand markup, you won't be wincing, you'll be quincing. Uh, Quince, That's a cool catchphrase I just came up with, and I would love to talk to you about licensing it for me. I've had my eye on their responsible down hooded parka because first of all, I appreciate a coat that's not irresponsible. And second of all, it looks frickin cozy as heck. I will be quincing so hard I won't even notice the cold. So don't sit around and wince. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com hyperfix for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N C E.com hyperfixed free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com hyperfixed quincing it's the opposite of wincing.
- [02:23]
Warby Parker Announcer
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- [02:54]
Alex Goldman
Hey, this is Alex and really quickly, before we start, I just wanted to ask you, the listener, to consider becoming a premium member of the show@hyperfixedpod.com join we are growing and I'm really happy with the show we're putting out. But my dream for 2026 is to be able to both give my producers raises and and to be able to offer them healthcare. And both of those things are very much in reach right now. We have 3200 subscribers and my back of the envelope math says that with 1500 new subscribers we will be able to accomplish both of these things and squirrel away a little bit of money for reporting projects. That's not so many people. We can do it together. And if you support the show, you get a bonus episode twice a month. Sometimes they're extended interviews and a lot of times it's like a story that we weren't quite able to finish or, or just something that we were interested in that deviates big time from the main feed. Also, if you become a premium member, you can hang out on our Discord, which at this point has just become another reporting tool for us. There's like so many smart, funny people on there with fascinating areas of expertise and a lot of stars of previous episodes like to hang out there. Anyhow, let's see if we can get to 1500 new premium subscribers by this summer. It would be absolutely game changing for this show. Thank you so much for listening. Again, that's hyperfixedpod.com join all right, here's the episode. Hi, I'm Alex Goldman and this is Hyperfixed. Each week on our show, listeners write in with their problems, big and small, and I solve them. Or at least I try. And if I don't, I at least give a good reason why I can't. This week, finding Sjogren. So I think it's fair to say that as both a user and an artist, it is not unreasonable to be unhappy with Spotify. In the last five years, the company has platformed dangerously false information. It's run recruiting ads for ice, and it continues to pay artists less than almost any other streamer. But For Hyperfix listener Miguel, a visual artist currently based in the Netherlands, the beef with Spotify is much more personal than that.
- [05:04]
Miguel
When I was younger, I would listen to music, and that was the activity. I'd open up the CD and look at all the lyrics and all the things that the band had written, and I would reach a point where I could memorize which songs were which track. I'd never play it on shuffle because there was a right order and the right story that the artist was trying to tell. So I used to really sink my teeth into albums. And then lately, it's become just the role of music has shifted to almost like sonic decoration, you know?
- [05:39]
Alex Goldman
After years of streaming, Miguel's begun to notice his relationship with music doesn't feel like much of a relationship anymore. He doesn't absorb the names of artists or songs he likes. He's not storing new lyrics in his memory, and he doesn't like that. So recently, Miguel made a decision to quit Spotify and to recommit himself to the kind of active, intentional listening he did when he was younger, before streaming turned music into wallpaper and artists into content creators. But in the process of doing that, Miguel has hit a snag. A problem that has proved so complex, so full of confusing dead ends and contradictions, that he couldn't solve it on his own. So he came to us for help. It started a few days before our conversation. One day, he was combing through the music on his playlists and making physical lists of the albums he would need to acquire to make this jump. And he discovered that one of the bands that he's been listening to, this indie band called Sjogren, doesn't actually have any albums for purchase. And then he discovered that they don't actually play live. And then he discovered that nobody actually knows who they are. And that's when Miguel started to panic, because one of the Internet's most popular theories about why Sjogren is so absent from the physical world is that they are not of the physical world. They're an AI band masquerading as a real one. And the reason this idea was so troubling to Miguel is that in addition to sounding human, the experience of listening to Sjogren had made him feel more connected to his humanity.
- [07:20]
Miguel
So they have this certain sound that's kind of like. It has the same feeling as, like, hanging out in a friend's, like, rooftop, or when you're on a road trip and you've gone past the threshold of your city and, like, what's familiar I know I can.
- [07:38]
Alex Goldman
I know I can.
- [07:40]
Kerry Alexander
I can't be everything.
- [07:45]
Miguel
There's a bit of, like, nostalgia and like, this bright. I could feel like this bright summer day.
- [07:50]
Alex Goldman
Oh, that's so poetic.
- [07:52]
Miguel
Yeah, a lot of their songs just feel like, oh, this could be a soundtrack of, like, my summer or whatever moment.
- [08:20]
Alex Goldman
Before Miguel wrote to us about Shogun, I'd never heard their music, but as soon as I hit play on the song, I understood exactly the feeling he was talking about. And if you grew up in the suburbs, you probably know it too. Riding bikes aimlessly around town, gathering a gaggle of friends as you go. Hanging out in front of the liquor store, begging the cool looking adults to hook you up. Spending your last five bucks to share half a burrito because you can't afford an entire one, and finishing off the day exploring abandoned buildings near the Huron River. I mean, maybe the last one is specific to me, but you get the point. Those aimless days full of potential, where the point of the day is simply to waste the day. And I think that if I knew those feelings could be manufactured by an algorithm, it would rob them of their magic. So while I understood why Miguel would be shaken by this, personally, I wasn't too worried about it. More on that later. Okay, so let's assume for a minute this band isn't AI and they're just anonymous. What does a solution look like for you? Is it going to be knowing who the band is, or is it going to be them having physical releases? Like, what is the solution you'd like?
- [09:35]
Miguel
I would love to know who they are. That's definitely a thing. Like, if they have any shows at all, I would love to go to one. But a very, very good consolation prize would be to have their songs as playable files so that once I delete my Spotify, I can revisit their tracks whenever I want.
- [09:57]
Alex Goldman
I mean, the music piece of this feels very doable. But if we came back to you and we're like, hey, we're able to confirm that they're not AI but they want to maintain their anonymity. Is there any additional information you would like to learn about them? Or is that enough information to feel like it's a sufficient solve? Oh, I don't know.
- [10:16]
Sam
I mean.
- [10:20]
Don
Yeah.
- [10:20]
Miguel
Like, what if it's like a Banksy situation? Right? Yeah. I feel like being told that, oh, we found them, they prefer not to blow their cover, Just trust us. That they're real would not be 100 satisfying. I'd be relieved because I. I think I could Trust you guys. But there'd still be a little bit of, like, this nagging feeling. Like, what if that's part of a ruse as well? Not maybe. Maybe they duped you, too.
- [10:52]
Alex Goldman
If we found some people who are like, yeah, we're the band, would you be satisfied or would you, like, need to them perform a song?
- [10:58]
Miguel
Oh, like a tiny desk concert. That'd be amazing. I'm not that entitled, but, I mean, what I. Maybe the most definitive former proof would be, like, art. We met these people. And also, here's footage of them playing music. Like, that'd be amazing.
- [11:16]
Alex Goldman
All right, well, we're on it, and I think those are all my questions. So, Miguel, we're going to start sniffing around and see if we can dig anything up.
- [11:26]
Miguel
I can't wait for the next update. If there is one. I'm hoping there is one.
- [11:32]
Alex Goldman
All right, I'm putting my cards on the table here to let you know that before I had ever even listened to Shogun, I knew they weren't an AI band. And there's no sexy, technical explanation for why I knew that. It was really just a timeline thing. So I'm sure, as you already know, AI is unfortunately, everywhere these days. People are using it to make everything from screenplays to songs. And they're not always disclosing the fact that AI was used to make them. But Sjogren started releasing music in 2015, and 11 years ago, that was not so much the case. Back then, companies were pouring money into the development of AI tools that people are using today. So anytime one of those tools actually succeeded in doing the thing it was designed to do, the companies that developed it would be shouting from the rooftops. And that is exactly what happened when Sony's computer science lab unveiled the first AI generated pop song in 2016, a full year after Sjogren released their first single. The event was covered by everyone from CBS News to Spin magazine. And its creators weren't hidden. They were platformed. They wanted to tell the story of how this technology had been used to make this thing. Because what they were selling wasn't a song that could pass as a human creation. It was the technology that had been used to create that song. And sure, you could argue that maybe some renegade researcher went off and decided to create a summer anthem that would capture the hearts of millennials everywhere. But I guess my logic is just like, if someone had figured out how to make an AI generated pop song before anyone else, and better than anyone else, why would they be quiet about it? Certainly wouldn't Be for profit. Because even though Sjogren's first song was a hit, and it really was a massive hit, like when it debuted on Spotify's New Music Friday In July of 2015, the song exploded. It got picked up by radio stations all over the country. It wound up in a commercial for Autotrader, on a couple TV shows, a movie. And even with all of that, the technology capable of creating such a profitable song would still have greater profit potential than the song itself. So, yeah, before we ever even started searching for Sjogren, we'd already chucked the Internet's most popular theory about why they're so elusive and started focusing our attention on the Internet's second most popular theory, which is that the band that we call Sjogren is actually a side project or an alter ego of a different indie band. Now, as far as we could tell, this theory is born from the fact that when you Google image search Sjogren, you end up with photos of a handful of other indie bands. And on its own, there's nothing compelling about this. But what was compelling was the way one of these bands seemed to be engaging with and even teasing at the idea that they may also be Sjogren.
- [14:35]
Chris
Nobody's gonna know. Nobody's gonna know. They're gonna know. How would they know? How would they know?
- [14:52]
Alex Goldman
What you just heard was the audio from an Instagram reel that was shared by a Minnesota based band called Bad Bad Hats. On the screen, there's a video of the band's singer, Kerry Alexander, making comically mysterious faces while a montage of screenshots cycles behind her. In these screenshots, taken from Reddit and Twitter, you can see people discussing the question of whether or not Sjogren is Bad Bad Hats. And in the caption, the band weighs in with a single sentence. We are probably not Sjogren. So of course we saw that and we're like, yeah, these guys are probably Sjogren. And frankly, this wasn't the only piece of evidence suggesting that they were. In fact, I think the most compelling piece of evidence was the fact that Sjogren's official Twitter account had retweeted photos of Bad Bad Hats. Photos that were being used to stand in for photos of Sjogren. And they had done this on multiple occasions. So either Sjogren was Bad Bad Hats or they were using Bad Bad Hats as a decoy. But whatever the case, it seemed like Bad Bad Hats were participating in this deception. And since we were able to find contact information for their PR team team, we reached out and scheduled a time to talk. So I'm going to ask a very easy question first, which is if you could each introduce yourselves and tell me your name and what you do for a living.
- [16:27]
Kerry Alexander
Hello, my name is Carrie K E R R Y Alexander, and I am in an indie rock band called Bad Bad Hats.
- [16:39]
Chris
My name is Chris, and I'm also in Bad Bad Hats. And we're married.
- [16:46]
Alex Goldman
Yes. Okay, so where does the name Bad Bad Hats come from? Because when I hear right out of the gate, Harry and Chris were super funny and friendly and open, but it was also clear that they had a bit of a mischievous side. In fact, they told me that's sort of how they got their band name, which is an homage to the naughty neighbor character in the children's book series Madeline. So while they absolutely fit the mold for what I imagined I'd find in a secret band behind a band I knew, I couldn't just come straight out and ask them if they were Sjogren. I needed to build up to it slowly. So we talked about their sound and their influences. They told me the story of how they met on MySpace and how learning to integrate synthesizers into their music had been like the audio equivalent of learning to season your food.
- [17:33]
Kerry Alexander
It's like salt or something. Like, you're not even really registering that it's happening, but it makes the chorus go like, bam.
- [17:41]
Alex Goldman
It felt like it was going great and I was playing it cool, waiting for the right moment to ask the question. But when the moment came, this is what came out of my mouth. So, okay, I've brought you here. I've brought you both here for a reason. This is not. Honestly, this is tough to listen to. I feel like I can hear the flop sweat all over my face. But, like, until that moment, I hadn't really considered how big a question we were about to ask them. If Bad Bad Hats were Sjogren, then it was a secret they'd been keeping for a decade. A secret that, if revealed, could have real consequences on the way they lived their lives. And yet, here we were, rolling off out of nowhere, asking them to reveal themselves for the very first time while we were recording. It's a crazy question to surprise someone with, but I was already in too deep. So I did my best to explain Miguel's predicament and the story of how we caught onto them. And then I finally pulled the trigger. So I have to ask you, in addition to the Bad Bad Hats, are you also Sjogren?
- [18:53]
Kerry Alexander
I can no longer sustain this web of lies. We would have gotten away with it if not for this meddling podcast. But no, we are not Chokrin.
- [19:12]
Alex Goldman
What? You're not?
- [19:14]
Kerry Alexander
No.
- [19:16]
Alex Goldman
Oh, my God. That's crazy, because my producer just handed me this. She was like, oh, I think I found the band. And I was like, great. And so I fully expected you to be like, yes, we are the band, Shogren.
- [19:27]
Kerry Alexander
I wish I could say that we were.
- [19:30]
Alex Goldman
I think you can tell that I was pretty stunned. But I was also a little relieved because even though I really wanted to solve this mystery, I didn't want to do it in such a gotcha kind of way. But it turns out the Bad Bad Hats have been just as curious about the Shogun situation as we were. Because even though they had a bit of fun posing as Sjogren, Bad Bad Hats did not originate this rumor about themselves.
- [19:55]
Kerry Alexander
I like Miguel, am a long standing fan of a band called Showgrim. They're on all my playlists. I love the vibe. And I'm also like, they are showing up often for fans of Baba Hats. And I'm thinking to myself, we would be a great opener for Sjogren. I would be a great concert attendee for Sjogren. So I'm telling Chris, I'm sitting on the couch, I say, chris, it's so annoying that Sjogren doesn't tour because we would be such a great fit to tour with them. And Chris was like, what do you mean they don't tour? And I was like, I don't know. I just think it's their whole thing that, like, they don't tour and, like, no one knows who they are. But I was like, I don't know. Let me, like, look into it. So I google Sjogren. Who are they? What's the deal? And I find myself on Reddit.com and I'm like, okay, here people are talking about this. I'm reading through and I'm shocked, shocked to find that I am being implicated as Sjogren themselves.
- [21:06]
Alex Goldman
So what was it like to find out that people believe you are Sjogren?
- [21:12]
Kerry Alexander
It was honestly really bizarre. My mouth was agape and I think I yelled to Chris. I was like, oh, my. You are not gonna believe this. I literally, I was innocently trying to find who this band is, and then I discovered that I'm the band. No one told me, but it was weird. Like, it just. It all seems to have stemmed with one tweet where, like a radio station was like, check out the new Sjogren song, but posted a photo of Baba Hats which why?
- [21:43]
Chris
Oh, probably a mistake.
- [21:45]
Alex Goldman
So funny.
- [21:47]
Kerry Alexander
But then. So people on the Reddit are like, well, now that you mention it, I'm hearing the similarities. It's all making sense to me. It's all clicking in my head. But then, unfortunately, there were people pushing back on that and saying, guys, there's no way these are the same. Because the singer of Ba Ba Hats squeaks when she hits high notes and slurs her words.
- [22:12]
Chris
That's tough to read.
- [22:13]
Kerry Alexander
That's tough to read.
- [22:13]
Chris
It's tough to read.
- [22:14]
Kerry Alexander
Y' all listening? Don't seek fame it only leads. It only leads to heartache. We heard this information. We were like, this is an interesting situation to be in.
- [22:31]
Chris
I thought it was actually maybe an opportunity to claim that we were Sjogren and announce the first ever Sjogren tour.
- [22:39]
Alex Goldman
Yeah, like, honestly, you would clean up. I think that the people in Sjogren would probably be pretty upset with you.
- [22:47]
Chris
But they would have to come out of the woodwork and say, here we are. We are actually Shogun. You can't do that.
- [22:52]
Alex Goldman
Now, you did post an Instagram reel about this conspiracy with the caption, guys, we are probably not show grit.
- [23:01]
Kerry Alexander
We. We felt the need to be a little saucy. We felt. We felt the need to take advantage of this. Of this mystery, certainly. But I honestly, I legitimately was like, people know we're not like, we. I'm going to post this. It's going to be funny. But I certainly have only fueled the fire more because now at almost every show we play, people are like, so you are Sjogren? I'm like, no. I thought we were all on the joke that we're not.
- [23:30]
Alex Goldman
So are you using this opportunity to come clean because, like, you feel like you need to, or is it just this, Just a fun thing and you don't think it matters at all?
- [23:38]
Kerry Alexander
I guess I would say I mostly think it's. It's pretty fun. We are very. Besides our one mysterious post, which I think I think I was owed, one mysterious post by being implicated by the people of Reddit. We are very. We are very upfront with the people at our shows that we are. We are not them, and also that we like them, want to know. We are hoping. We're counting on you, Alex, to give us this information as well, because I gotta see. I gotta. I gotta know what's going on.
- [24:12]
Alex Goldman
Okay, so before I let you go, I am going to dip briefly into conspiracy.
- [24:17]
Kerry Alexander
Okay?
- [24:18]
Alex Goldman
How do I know that you're not lying to me and that you aren't.
- [24:21]
Kerry Alexander
Actually, children, I guess you don't. I guess you just have to look deep inside yourselves, listeners as well, and be like, is this woman just spinning the tallest tale you've ever heard? I don't know, I'm a little bit out there. You can maybe see it. She's a little wily, she's a little wacky. Could this all be an elaborate improv sketch? Who could say?
- [24:54]
Alex Goldman
I mean, Bad Hat was a mischievous character, wasn't he?
- [24:57]
Kerry Alexander
He was, yep.
- [24:59]
Alex Goldman
After our conversation with Bad Bad Hats, we were like completely tickled, but also completely empty handed. We had no more theories to test, no, no more leads to follow up on. We'd already tried all the conventional ways of contacting Sjogren and we hadn't heard back. But we knew they had to be reachable somehow. And the reason we knew that is because their music had been used in TV shows and commercials. And in order for that to happen, deals have to be brokered, licenses would have to be issued, and the person who would handle that stuff would need to be not only reachable, but also findable. So we started looking for the company that handles the publishing rights for Sjogren's music. And once we found Cutcraft Music Group, everything started moving really fast. We wrote a letter to the guy who handles their publishing and he passed it to the guy who manages the band, who passed it off to Sjogren themselves. And within a couple weeks we were on a video call with the band, but we weren't allowed to record it. We spoke to them off the record and it was totally amazing. Everything about what they're doing and why they're doing it the way they're doing it felt like it made perfect sense. But we knew we couldn't just report that back to Miguel. He'd been super explicit about the idea that if we weren't able to tell him who they were, he would want some other kind of proof that they were real. Something like early footage of them playing together. And now that we'd spoken to them, we knew that kind of footage probably didn't exist. Which meant that delivering a satisfying answer was going to come down to them agreeing to an on the record interview. But we understood why they'd be hesitant to do that. For the last 10 years, professional anonymity had been working great for them and we had no intention of messing that up. But we explained the situation and they told us they'd think about it. And after that all we could do was wait and check in from time to time, which we did. For five months until we finally got an answer. Okay, so how you guys feeling?
- [27:13]
Maya
Natural nerves going on. Like, what is this after the break?
- [27:18]
Alex Goldman
Sjogren. Kicking off the year. Feeling good is my whole personality right now. And honestly, hydration is the easiest win. Alright, look, I gotta be honest with you. Feeling good is never my thing. And I feel terrible all the time. And every day I wonder at the point of continuing this wretched existence. But you can be darn sure I'm hydrated, thanks to Drip Drop. Drip Drop is a powder that you can put in water that hydrates the dang heck out of you. Drip Drop is doctor developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and mind work better, which is exactly what 2026 U needs. Think clearer focus, better energy, elevated mood, even that fresh skin glow. It uses a precise ratio of electrolytes and glucose for rapid absorption, delivering three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of leading sports drinks. All you gotta do is drop it into some water and then drip it right into your dang mouth. I like the orange flavor because I like citrusy stuff. And so I will drink that to feel hydrated. Right now, Drip Drop is offering podcast listeners 20% off. Your first order. Go to drip drop.com and use promo code HYPERFIXED. That's dripdrop.com promo code HYPERFIXED for 20% off drip drop. Drop it into some water and then drip it into your mouth.
- [28:57]
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- [29:43]
Alex Goldman
Welcome back to the show. So before the break, we finally found Sjogren. But when we did, we couldn't say anything about it because they weren't ready to speak on the record. So we waited a bit and then we checked in, and then we waited a bit longer and then we checked in. And folks, never let people tell you that persistence doesn't pay off, because after a while, they were finally just like, okay, we're going to bite the bullet. We are ready to record with you. So to start things off, I'm wondering if you guys could introduce yourselves. Just your name and what you play.
- [30:15]
Maya
Yeah. So I'M Maya. I try to do many things, but some would mostly think of me as a singer and a writer.
- [30:23]
Sam
I'm Sam, play the drums, but I kind of dabble in whatever's around me. Play the computer, keys, little bit of guitar, a little bit of bass.
- [30:34]
Don
I'm dawn, and I think at this point I mostly stare at a laptop, fumble around a guitar, every once in a while, mumble into a microphone, but it's largely just staring at a laptop.
- [30:45]
Alex Goldman
In a dark room. This is Maya, Don and Sam, the artists that have been collectively making music under the moniker Sjogren. And if there is one thing you should know about them, it's that they never meant for any of this to happen the way that it's happened. They never intended to be anonymous and they never intended to be a band without physical recordings of their music, because frankly, they never actually intended to be a band. The story of Sjogren is one of arriving before you're ready to arrive and having to figure out what to do with that situation once you're already in it. But it starts at a high school in Fremont, California, just across the bay from Palo Alto. Maya, Don and Sam were normal suburban scrubs with dreams of becoming musicians. Don and Sam had their own little garage band with a revolving door of singers that never quite fit. And Maya was an aspiring singer songwriter who was a little too shy to do either one of those things publicly. They knew of each other, but they never really connected. And in the years following high school, they pursued their separate musical dreams. Don and Sam went to LA to be producers. They got a publishing deal and started submitting songs to pop artists, but they never really landed anything. Meanwhile, Maya was in Nashville trying to cultivate her songwriting, but never really finding her footing. And by 2015, they all felt like professional failures. So when Maya moves back to California, one of their mutual friends tells Don and Sam, hey, Maya's been trying to make it as a musician and they figured we should reach out to her.
- [32:19]
Don
I was in the drive thru at McDonald's with like negative $800 in my bank account and she sent me a bunch of voice memos. And at that point she had like, not really written over like, productions or songs. She would just sing into her phone these like three minute songs that were like very clear that she had like a command of like song flow and a great voice and really cool lyrics. And it was like, hey, you should come down to LA and write with us.
- [32:50]
Alex Goldman
They got together and wrote a series of demos that they almost didn't Put.
- [32:53]
Don
Out, and then on a whim, one night, uploaded them to SoundCloud and sent them out to a bunch of blogs, which got us, like, just enough positive feedback to go and record a fully produced song. So that song was called Seventeen. We put that out on Spotify, and it kind of took off. The timing was right. It was kind of the end of the blog scene, the beginning of streaming. Spotify was really becoming a thing, and we were kind of at the top of one of the first new Music Fridays, which kind of introduced us to an entirely new audience. And that brought a whole other level of attention beyond, I think, what the blogs were capable of.
- [33:42]
Alex Goldman
All of a sudden, the song was racking up streams. People were sharing it, people were writing about it, and all of that was great, if you want a second to breathe. What wasn't so great was that suddenly the people wanted to interview them. They wanted to know who they were and what they were about. And obviously, the group didn't know how to answer that stuff because, again, this was literally the first song they'd ever produced together. So they avoided interviews like the plague. And when they started getting calls from business people wanting to fly them to New York and sign them to record deals and send them out on the road, it didn't feel like a dream come true. It felt too fast and it felt wrong.
- [34:29]
Maya
I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? Everyone was nice and cool, but, you know, you want to get into business with people that understand you. And I think at that point in our careers, no one had anything to go off of except that we had just had this song blow up.
- [34:46]
Alex Goldman
Nobody seemed to understand that they weren't actually a band or that because of the way this song had been made, which involved a lot of tinkering around on computers, they couldn't actually recreate it live. And people really didn't understand why the group was so resistant to doing interviews and photo shoots. But it just felt like everything was happening too soon. The group wanted time to figure things out and grow organically without the pressure of having to do it in public. So even though they would have loved to have the resources to quit their day jobs and focus on making music, they decided to go with their guts and continue working independently and privately.
- [35:23]
Don
I've always felt like, I mean, this has been challenged over the years, but especially at that time, I felt like technology was emerging in a way that, like, good music was going to rise to the top. It would find its audience, like the interconnectivity of The Internet itself was, like, very conducive to, like, the independent artist, which I think has been tested over time, but I still kind of feel this way that, like, good art has a way of finding its way to its audience. And I thought we were capable of writing, like, simple pop songs. So I felt like as long as we could keep working together, we'd have the potential to do interesting things. But, yeah, there was obviously a lot of pressure to be a band and hit the road, and that just felt so foreign to our skill set.
- [36:12]
Maya
Yeah, but it was a hard decision and a hard period of time, for sure. You're like, oh, am I passing up on an opportunity of a lifetime? Or, like, is this it? This the thing? Is this the thing I get and I should take this?
- [36:26]
Don
But also at that time, we're watching artists like Frank Ocean, whose album mixtape was shelved, and then he released it himself and became, like, the biggest artist in the world. It was just like there were examples all around us of artists that were like, you know, maybe this isn't the best path for me. You know, the machine is great for a lot of people, but as you enter into that world, that's like 50% of your profit is going into that world. And so your songs need to be that much bigger in order for that to be fruitful. Choosing the DIY route, you can do more with less, I guess, is the idea.
- [37:01]
Alex Goldman
And sure enough, that DIY model worked phenomenally well for them. Their singles continued to get a ton of play from the streamers, they landed some licensing deals, including an ad for Autotrader, and eventually they were able to quit their day jobs. And as a result of owning their own music and not being contractually obligated to go on tour or in debt to whatever company prints their albums, they've been able to use these last 10 years to focus on finding their sound, writing songs, and releasing things only when and if they feel proud of them. So after all this time, why, you may be wondering, have they continued to remain anonymous? What was behind the decision to just be anonymous? Was that a definitive decision, or did it just evolve to be what it is today?
- [37:50]
Don
I definitely feel like it evolved into something that I think we all kind of wish that we could, like, kill.
- [37:57]
Sam
Yeah, it wasn't intentional. And then when it's. Since it's gone this long, it does. I think people interpret it as being very intentional, but it seems to us like this is the natural way of being.
- [38:13]
Maya
Yeah, I think we just. None of us are natural performers or leaned into that, like, early on and as we got older, it still wasn't really part of who we were. And then, of course, you're making music, and it's like, what do you visually pair with this? And I think, you know, you look at band pictures of people a lot of times, and sometimes they can be really cool, and other times you're like, what? This is just the same thing over and over again. And you just. You're standing next to a blue wall.
- [38:40]
Sam
Yeah, yeah, we're next to a wall.
- [38:42]
Maya
One of you is looking off to the left. You know.
- [38:47]
Alex Goldman
Oh, my God, you're really. You have just called out literally every band photo ever taken.
- [38:54]
Sam
Shots fired.
- [38:59]
Don
Struggled with that, because it's like, you want to make cool art. And all of the artists that we look up to are ones that, like, do unique. It felt like people were just pushing, like, the same recipe on us, and it was like, okay, how are we gonna, like, differentiate ourselves from the crowd? And I think early on, we really wanted to experiment with the video side of things. Kind of never made those connections. And so instead of doing versions of that that, like, we weren't super proud of, we just didn't do it. And that just led into this anonymity world that grew to a point where it was like, okay, well, how are we going to get out of this now? I don't really want to put my face on anything. Like, I would be perfectly happy. Never that. It's kind of just like a necessary evil that we're trying to, like, wrap our heads around, like, what our position is in that.
- [39:52]
Maya
Yeah, I think, too, like, as it's become a thing, like, the. We've seen the. There's a Reddit thread where people are talking about us being like, AI, and I think it's hilarious. And I. It was cool to see that bubble up and happen. And it's cool to see just, like, what people do when you don't give them much. And that wasn't a part of the plan. It was just not really having a clear idea of something to do that we thought was cool. Being hands off about it has led to an interesting thing. So I'm not mad about it.
- [40:33]
Sam
It is very endearing. I haven't read much of it. I try not look us up or anything like that, but we would like to connect with fans more. We aren't quite sure how exactly yet, but we're figuring it out, I think. Or at least we're going to try some things. But, yeah, like, engaging with the people that are our fans. Would be nice. It would be cool. And seeing that stuff, it's like when people think we're robots, it's like, well, how do we tell them we're not robots? But we're not going to talk to them very much.
- [41:02]
Don
Wouldn't mind just being robots.
- [41:04]
Sam
Don wants to be a robot.
- [41:09]
Alex Goldman
Before we said goodbye to the artists collectively known as Sjogren, there was one more piece of business we needed to handle. This whole thing started because Miguel wanted to get off Spotify, and he couldn't figure out how to leave the platform without leaving their music behind. So we asked them how Miguel can continue to listen to their music and if they have any plans for physical media in the future.
- [41:32]
Don
We want to do vinyl. I think that for us, vinyl is something that gets us excited. Vinyl also is like. Like, music has kind of always followed technology, and vinyl was complementing the technology of, like, 70 years ago. And it represents, like, this project. And the way we've released music in the streaming era is singles. And so if we're going to do vinyl, we would like it to be, like, this cohesive thing. And I don't think we've got to a place where we're like. We feel like we have that. I think we flirted with it for a long time, and I think that if we have this conversation a year from now and we still haven't put out vinyl, I would be disappointed. I think it's something we're going to do in the near future. But even looking back right now, it's like, if we were to release vinyl, like, how would we do that?
- [42:19]
Miguel
What.
- [42:19]
Don
What is the collection of songs? And it feels like it would be this disjointed collection of singles with artwork that doesn't. I don't know, doesn't feel cohesive. So I feel like if you want to support us now, it's kind of like it's streaming, it's merch. You can purchase music on Bandcamp, and hopefully we'll have more options in the future.
- [42:44]
Miguel
I'm delighted. I swear. Like, this is amazing.
- [42:47]
Alex Goldman
When we circled back up with Miguel, he was thrilled to find out that he had not developed an emotional relationship with a robot band. As much as Don may have wished that was the case, but he was also fascinated by the story of how Sjogren came to be in this strange situation. We told him the whole story about how they'd been blindsided by their own success and how instead of racing to meet a moment they weren't ready for, they turned their backs on the traditional trappings of the music industry on touring and record deals and interviews. Although they apparently did give a couple very tiny interviews early in their career. And because they weren't distracted by or obligated to the demands of a traditional music career, they were able to stay focused on what mattered most to making music that they felt proud of. And it just so happens that in the process of doing that, they inadvertently built themselves into a bit of a musical mystery. We explain that the reason they don't perform live is because they're not really performers, and that the way they make music isn't super audience friendly. It involves a lot of tinkering around on computers in their bedrooms, and it looks more like the work of music producers than the work of a band. A title that doesn't really resonate with them. For Maya, Don and Sam, Sjogren was always just a project, one of many incarnations of their collective musical output. It just so happened to be the one that reached and connected with the greatest number of people. Which brings us to our final point about Sjogren. The reason we started this search was because Miguel was beefing with Spotify. He felt like the streaming service made him feel disconnected from the music he used to love. But one of the most interesting things about talking to the group was the extent to which they credited streamers and Spotify in particular, for allowing them to have this untraditional music career without physical albums, without touring, without so much as a photo of them together as a group. Streaming allowed Sjogren to build an audience so dedicated that people like Miguel had taken to forums and contacted a meddling podcast just to find out who they were. So while there's still plenty of shit to hate about streamers, there's also this. And that's not nothing. But when it was all over, one question remained for Miguel. Could we prove that Maya, Don and Sam, them were the group they claimed they were? Well, first of all, we had found their names written in the song credits listed on Apple Music. But if that wasn't good enough for Miguel, there was another offer on the table. Here's Don and Sam again.
- [45:20]
Sam
Miguel here in San Francisco. We'll go grab a bite to eat and then we'll be like, hey, it's us.
- [45:25]
Don
You are welcome to come to the studio and we'll play that music for you.
- [45:34]
Chris
Oh, that's great.
- [45:36]
Alex Goldman
Try to keep it down and keep it off my mind. Good things will come in time.
- [45:43]
Kerry Alexander
It's the battles.
- [45:52]
Alex Goldman
Hyper Fixed is produced and edited by Amor Yates, Emma Cortland and Sari Safra Sukanek. It was engineered by Tony Williams. The music is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder and me and Sjogren. This is their latest single Cool Over Kind. You can find it anywhere. Quality audio tracks are streamed. You can get bonus episodes, access to our discord and much more by becoming a Premium hyperfix member@hyperfixpod.com join we also have merch@merch hyperfixpod.com and premium members get a 15% discount on everything. So definitely go get stuff. It supports the show and everyone will love you. Hyperfix is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm. Thanks so much for listening. Radiotopia from prx.