← I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
5 Things You and Your Kids Need to Build a Lasting Faith in a Changing World with Jonathan Morrow
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- [00:03]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, what does a man who works with young people every day on Christian worldview, what does he say about what's working with young people and even older people to teach them the basics of the faith? What threats are young people and even older people experiencing that tempt them to move away from the faith? What is working? What isn't working? What can we do to make more disciples? Well, today I have an old time friend with me on this podcast who wrote a book several years ago called welcome to College and he just updated the book. But I want to emphasize this book is not just for college kids, it's for anybody. Because due to social media, due to the Internet, we're all getting what college kids just used to get on the campus. We're getting it coming into our phones, on our social media feeds, through all sorts of different websites. So listen up, whether you have a kid in college or not, or you're going to college or not, this is going to be a helpful show. And of course, I'm talking about my friend Jonathan Morrow. All the way from impact360, ladies and gentlemen. You say, what's impact360? Impact360 is a great prep, kind of a gap year for people going from high school to college. They teach them Christian worldview down there. And I often go down there and are, I'm one of the instructors down there. But here he is, the great Jonathan Morrow. Jonathan, how are you? All the way from Pine Mountain, Georgia.
- [01:43]
B
Hey, Frank, always good to be with you, doing great. Thanks for having me on. So grateful for you and, and so excited to see how God's using you. We're doing great down in Pine Mountain. We're, we get to equip students to follow Jesus for a lifetime. So it's a blast.
- [01:55]
A
Now Impact 360 has been around for quite a while. It grew out of Chick Fil A. God's chicken. Am I correct about that?
- [02:01]
B
Yeah. Our founders are John and Trudy and they had a vision for seeing the next generation. And so it's completely separate from Chick Fil A. But they wanted to invest in seeing students walk with Jesus for a lifetime, discover their calling. And so grateful for their legacy of investing in the next generation with impact360impact360.org on that.
- [02:20]
A
Now when I read this book several months ago because for those of you that don't know when you write a book, you write it like a year before it comes out and by the time it comes out, you forgot what you wrote. Anyway, when I read it about a year ago, I said, hey, if there's one book that I'd want to give to kids about to go to college or parents who are having kids going to college, it'd be this one. It's called welcome to College A Christ Centered Guide to Lasting Faith in a Changing World. This is the third edition, 2026. Jonathan, let's talk first about the five things that you think need to happen for somebody to be grounded in the Christian faith. What are the five things?
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, so the five things that need to happen to be grounded in the Christian faith are they've got to answer certain questions. Now we can talk about challenges, we can talk about what's not working, all that. But the five things that are working are, is Christianity true? Everybody's got to answer that question. The first thing is everybody actually, what am I building my life on? Not do I feel good? Not does it work for me? Not was I raised with this? Not what did mom and dad think? Not as what my youth pastor think, but is Christianity actually true? And that's the first thing they have to focus on. The second thing we have to focus on is who am I surrounding myself with? Because wise relationships, Proverbs 13:20 says this, he who walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools, the suffers harm. And so we can talk about this as we go. So I'm just kind of giving you a flyover of some of these kind of things right now. Third, we're going to see how will I see the world? We're either going to see the world from our perspective or God's perspective. And this is where the power of worldview comes in. Right. And then the fourth question is, who will I learn from? Everybody learns from someone. We can talk about that. And lastly, who will I ultimately live for? Those five questions and how you build those things out will determine by God's grace, of course, empowered by the Holy Spirit, whether or not you build a lasting faith. That's really going to carry people, carry all of us through. But those five things are how you grow faith.
- [04:19]
A
I want to talk about, I think you mentioned the second one for just a second about who are you going to sort of hang out with, who you're going to learn from. I remember Charlie Kirk saying this, and of course, other people have said this before him, but you are going to be the composite in many cases, of the five people you spend the most time with. Yeah. And the question is, who are you spending time with? Who are you learning from? I was privileged to study under Norman Geiser here at Southern Evangelical Seminary SES edu and he's forgotten more than I'll ever know. He of course went to be with the lord back in 2019, but he knew more about Christianity than any five people I knew. And so I was privileged to learn a lot from him. Who, who in your life have you learned quite a bit from and who have been those people that you have in your life that have helped you become a better disciple of Jesus?
- [05:16]
B
Jonathan yeah, that's so such a good question. So several people along the way. One of my key heroes and mentors was JP Morland. He loved God with all your mind studied under him. And William Lane Craig When I was at Talbot, I was at Dallas Seminary. Daryl Bach New Testament Scholar they really shaped my vision for Jesus. Howard Hendricks, before he passed was I was, I was at the center for Student Leadership at Dallas Seminary and I work in spirit formation and I learned so much just from watching how he just really lived his life and just observed that from afar. People like you way back, way back a long time ago, one of the very first cross examined academy the training times got to come. Yeah, yeah. CIA got to hang out with you and watch how you do what you do. And I've had people, others invest in my life, but I had mentors along the way in college because there's kind of spiritual, intellectual mentors. But then there was, I'm like for example in college as a freshman, I'll never forget it. Frank There was a, there was a guy who said, all right, here's how you study the Bible, second Timothy we just spent time. Here's how you dig into God's word, here's how you pray, here's how you share your faith. And so we went, then we went out and did it. We actually did those things together. And so I am so grateful for the investment of so many mentors, disciplers and professors, intellectual giants along the way who have invested in me because my passion is I'm called to kind of an integrated. I love taking all of the, all the stuff at the high academic level or whatever it might be and then integrating it because sometimes, and that's really what I try to do with welcome to college. And because I talk about everything from how do you read the Bible to how do you know it's true to how do you resolve conflict, what do you do with your emotions, how do you deal with screens? Because if Christianity is true, it applies to every area of life. There's not a part that it doesn't and that's a vision that people invested in me and kind of. And kind of cast that vision for me early on. And so along the way, I feel like I've taken from all these great heroes and people who have given all these nuggets, and I've just tried to put it together in a way that gives people clarity and confidence. And honestly, as I try to do that now with raising three kids of our own, be married 25 years, trying to be faithful every day to what the Lord's called us to do. Not perfect, but faithful in what. What God's called me to do.
- [07:30]
A
So, ladies and gentlemen, who are those people in your lives that are spiritual mentors to you, intellectual mentors? Do you have anyone? Where are you spending most of your free time? Who are you spending it with? Who are you learning from? What are you putting into your mind every day? Very important questions. And this book, welcome to College. Whether you're going to college or not, will help you. One of the things I love about the book, Jonathan, is it covers not just the intellect, it also covers the moral struggles that college students will go through and the practical life skills that they'll need in college, out of college, just life skills you need everywhere. So you kind of COVID the gambit in the book, welcome to College. Out of those five things you mentioned at the top of the program, which one of those do you think is the most difficult to achieve if you had to pick one?
- [08:22]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I put a lot of things together because we don't live fragmented lives. We're whole people, and that's why that matters so much. But I think if you had to pick one of those. I think all five are critical, obviously, but I think one is a posture of a disciple, is, who will I learn from? There's gotta be a posture of like. And that's in the core of the disciple piece. Right? We're learners of. From Jesus, how to live his life is. And so am I thinking like him? Am I. Am I learning to arrange my life around the things that he valued and prioritized? He submitted to God's word. He was filled with the Spirit. He spent time in prayer, like all of those kind of things. And so am I taking those things on, because here's the reality, Frank, and you mentioned this at the top of the show. We are so. We live in the distracted age where we are constantly interrupted by information overload and all the overwhelm. And we can talk about some of that, but the reality is is we are being discipled by our screens every single day. The little short, little clips, little short, little videos, little influencers people don't search for when people don't even Google it anymore. We have influencers now, little snippets and videos that tell us how to live, that cast vision for the good life. And that's where we learn. And so we've got to pick who am I going to learn from?
- [09:38]
A
And it's got to be deliberate. If it's not deliberate, you're going to be discipled by the wrong influences. We're talking to Jonathan Morrow's brand new updated edition of welcome to College has just hit the shelves. You can get it at Amazon or anywhere you get books. You're going to want to get it even if you're not going to college. And we'll be back right after the break.
- [09:57]
B
Break.
- [09:57]
A
I'm Frank Turek, Ladies and gentlemen. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist because there's so much great evidence that God exists and there's actually great evidence that Jesus rose from the dead and the Bible's telling the truth. So I don't need a lot of faith to be a Christian. You need a lot of faith to be a non Christian, in my view. And when I'm using faith in that sense, I mean, in the sense that, say, Richard Dawkins, the famous atheist, would say faith is when you don't have evidence, faith is just blind. Well, if that's the case, in my view, people who are not Christians are more blind than Christians. I think Christians, if they know why Christianity is true, have the most reasonable worldview. And we're talking to Jonathan Morrow. His brand new book welcome to College, his updated book is out. And it will help you not just know the evidence for Christianity that it's true, but deal with many objections and life issues that come up in a young person's life. So I highly recommend you get it. Jonathan, you also talk about in the book, in addition to those five things you mentioned that someone needs to do to be a fully devoted follower of Christ, a disciple you mentioned, there are five threats that sort of prevent us or may pull us away from that overall goal of being a disciple of Jesus. Can we go through those five?
- [11:21]
B
Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. So the first one is worldview confusion. We live in a contested public square. And so the first one has to do with students are being raised in a culture in which there is not clarity. There's a lot of confusion about what they believe they don't understand what's biblical or true. There's all these competing ideologies and all these competing influencers, all these competing voices. And the reality is, is because truth is up for grabs, because most people go, well look, how I feel determines what's real. So truth. And that's not right. I mean, how many times have your feelings changed? I mean, mine, mine. Maybe let's not anchor life's biggest questions of how we're feeling in a given moment. Maybe that'd be a good, good idea. And so, so the first thing that they're facing, they're raised in an idea of worldview confusion. So there's all these different competing voices and there's no idea, no understanding of objective truth at the core of it. And so then, because look, the reality is, is they reduce Christianity to opinions and preferences and because of that they kind of come up with, well this is my own vision for this. And then they just kind of go, well, I guess we agree to disagree and I don't want to be judgmental. And then that's the first thing that's shaping them. So if the first, first of the five is that there's this worldview confusion and we live in a contested public square and you know this better than, better than pretty much anybody on this is the reality is these other beliefs are not just passive. I mean they're actively out there trying to undermine and confuse and distort. And if we believe there is an enemy of our souls and there is who comes to steal, kill and destroy, then he would love nothing more than for us to have bad ideas about who God is, what's true and what reality is. So that first element is worldview confusion.
- [13:06]
A
Yeah, let's marinate on that for a second. I think that's absolutely critical that people be able to refute these self defeating claims, which they are. So when someone says, well, all truth is a matter of opinion, how might you respond to that?
- [13:24]
B
Yeah, well is that your opinion? And if so, is that, is, is that true or not? Right? I mean, so if you have an opinion, you know, it's like, you know, it's kind of like all sentences, you know, or all English sentences are longer or there's no English English sentence longer than six words like well, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Yeah, that, that one longer. So you end up with these self refuting statements along the way, right?
- [13:46]
A
Yeah. And if we can't teach people that truth does exist and you can know it, then everything's reduced to opinion. And if everything's reduced to opinion. All we do is fight with one another. We don't have any standard that we can point to to see who's closer to the truth. Anyone who claims there is no truth is uttering a truth claim. Anyone who claims that all truth is relative, you simply ask them, is that a relative truth? You know, they say you ought not judge. You might want to ask them, then why are you judging me for judging? These are self defeating claims. You can't let people get away with that. Of course, you would never go to school, you'd never read a book, you'd never be able to catch someone in a lie unless truth existed. All those things presuppose truth. So that first threat is critical. I wish we taught logic in public school, Jonathan. If we did, things would be a lot better. But instead of teaching kids how to think, we're teaching them what to think, feel. And that can be dangerous because if you follow your feelings without reason or without moral restraint, you're going to wind up in a dark place. So logic, and this book will help you with logic. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to college. The book we're talking about, that's the first threat. People are illogical. They think everything's opinion. What about the second? What's the second threat?
- [14:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. The second threat really is around identity pressure in this identity confusion. Because the reality is, is what's going on is students have this amazing pressure on them. And honestly, all of us, in the sense that identity is something you create rather than discover. And if they think about it as something that I create, then they bear the burden of having to come up with a what is this going to be? Who am I? And who gets to determine that? And that's also exhausting, right? Because the reality is if you're the one always trying to make up who you are, you don't get any peace or stability or confidence from the reality of someone else telling you who you are or the confidence that comes from building that on something you've discovered. And so one of the things, Frank, that we're seeing is students in the next generation, they're exhausted. They're told, in one sense, follow your heart, figure out who you are, as opposed to discover who you are and then cooperate with reality. And God's, in this case, God's good design of who you are, that's how you're going to flourish. And so there's this identity confusion. And one of the foundational worldview questions that we all have to answer is who am I? And who gets to answer that question. And when your head hits the pillow at the night, at the end of the day and at night when you're going to sleep, a lot of these kids, and we'll talk about some of these other challenges, because they kind of stack on each other, they are exhausted of trying to perform because so much of what they do is performative that other people like or vote on or value. And then if they're tying that into who they are and their whole sense of self and a lot of the gender confusion that we see or a lot of the other things that we see, you know, it's just going to be a recipe for disaster. So there's that worldview confusion on the one hand, and then there's this identity issue that they are wrestling at a deep level with, where they're trying to create meaning all the time. And so then they're constantly going in different directions and they're susceptible to anybody who will speak into that. And so that's the second big threat to the faith of the next generation, and really all of us. But really that during those foundational years
- [16:56]
A
especially, yeah, ladies and gentlemen, you don't determine your identity. You discover your identity. And in Christianity, when it comes to your identity as a Christian, you don't achieve it. You receive it. As Jonathan just said, if you have to achieve it, man, all the pressure's on you. That's exhausting. And there's always somebody that can do it better. Right. But if you just receive it as a gift, which is what Christianity gives you, it gives you the gift of forgiveness and eternal life, there's nothing you can do to achieve it. You just receive it. It's liberating, and it's also eternal. You can't lose it. What's the third threat that young people and even older people have to deal with?
- [17:37]
B
Yeah, right now, it's emotional overload. Emotional overload. So you got this worldview confusion, you've got this identity confusion piece, but now you've got anxiety, fear, worry, sadness, loneliness, and you've got all these emotions. And we're in this. In this culture, it's been called expressive individualism, where I determine my identity and meaning. But then now you've got all this anxiety and worry and fear. And then people have all these emotions that they feel overwhelmed with and they don't know what to do with. And so in one ways, we. We live in what's called a therapeutic culture. And so the reality of this, and it's not that biblical therapy isn't a good thing and necessary sometimes, or even that medication sometimes can't be helpful and biblical in a certain sense. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the broad cultural shaping force that basically says two things, Frank, and it's this. It medicalizes everything and it's a therapeutic culture. So we either fix it with rumination and therapy or a pill and we distract with a screen if those two don't work. And so what happens then is we live in a culture of rumination and this is what's not good, right? Because in the Bible, what does it say dwell on the things that are good and true and beautiful? Well, what happens if you just train a whole generation to fixate on their problems all the time? So it's kind of like this. So you go, well, okay, if they're in therapy. And again, I'm not saying ultimately these can't be helpful, but this kind isn't. Maybe they're having a great day, but every Thursday at 3pm they're going to meet with their therapist. And then that Thursday. Hey, tell me about everything you were worried and fearful about this week. Let's run over that for the next hour and groove that into your brain and more into your thoughts and habits and emotions about how bad and scary the world is and how you're not measuring up and all the things you're worried about and concerned about. Okay, we'll see you next week. Rather than the renewing of your mind piece, which layers in and helps people really move forward, or what's called cognitive behavioral therapy models which actually help you get free from these traps as you go. And so we live in a very emotionally overwhelmed. So what happens? People, they just give up. So students no longer have the energy or the motivation to look for what's true because they're just feeling emotionally overwhelmed. They're like, I'm stuck in this world in my own head, I can't get out, I don't know what to do. I feel overwhelmed, I feel anxious, I feel scared. And so they don't know how to properly deal with those things. And so I go into some of that and welcome to college. And what some of the latest research tells us on that and of course what a biblical worldview shares about that as well. And then sometimes what happens with this generation is they're over medicated. I think there's good evidence for that because we're not getting to some of these root issues. And so these things start stacking. So worldview confusion, identity, that pressure to figure out who I am all the time, and then I'm emotionally overwhelmed. And that's the environment in which they're trying to build this faith or figure out what they believe.
- [20:34]
A
Ironic too, that this generation is the most comfortable in history in the sense of creature comforts. And also the safest. Right. I mean, we're more about avoiding risk and taking care of people than ever before. And yet we are the least, or maybe I should say it the other way, we are the most anxious about this. When, you know, you went back 100, 200 years ago, you didn't even know if your, your kid was going to make it out of childhood alive. But now people, their biggest problem, they have a first world problem. I got spotty Wi fi, my day's over.
- [21:19]
B
We're done. We're good.
- [21:20]
A
We can't, we can't deal with anything. All right, we've got about a minute before we get to the break, but what about number four, the fourth threat that's attacking young people and even older people?
- [21:31]
B
Yeah. So if we have emotional overload, then we also have what's called information overload. The amount of just sheer volume of ideas and influencers and videos and content that's coming at us is just overwhelming. And so people don't know that leads to emotional problems.
- [21:47]
A
It has to these two, they're symbiotically related.
- [21:50]
B
Those are connected. So we get mentally and over emotionally overwhelmed, so they don't know who to trust. We've got AI generated content, we've got influencers. We're trying to figure out, was that image real. People don't even care about telling the truth anymore. They'll literally say a headline, retract it three days later, which no one ever sees. And so you've got all this disinformation, misinformation. People are like, I don't know who to trust. You got all this stuff you got, you got people going, okay, well, there's a, there's all these different ideas where there's three different YouTube videos saying three different things. And now we live in YouTube university year era for, for students and kids today. You can find somebody, somewhere that believes the crazy thing, even though, hey, we just went to the moon again, but people at the flat earth, we're still there. There's still going to be an argument for a flat earth, even after all the, all the things that we've seen and all those kind of stuff.
- [22:34]
A
So information, with all these conspiracy theories too, that doesn't help. But nobody ever thinks, I wonder if there is a Conspiracy to get people to, to believe that everything is a conspiracy. Huh? Huh? All right, A lot more with Jonathan Morrow, the brand new updated book welcome to College. A Christ centered guide to lasting faith in a changing world is for everybody, not just college kids, but college kids will especially benefit from it. We got a lot more after the break. Don't go anywhere. I'm Frank Turek. Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe. And Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating today@crossexamine.org that's cross examine with a D on the end dot org. What are five threats that are affecting all of us, particularly young people? Five threats to our, our psyche. Five threats to our Christian worldview and what can we do about them? Then we're going to talk about five approaches to these problems that don't work. And then we're going to get to approaches that do work. I'm talking to Jonathan Morrow, the author of welcome to College. Jonathan, what's the website for the book and what can they get if they go to that website?
- [24:17]
B
Yeah, great, Frank. It's welcome to college.org welcome to college.org. i've got a free PDF that is the five questions every student needs to ask and answer to build a lasting faith. This will help students, adults, parents, everybody. You can get the book there. Welcome to college.org all right, now we
- [24:33]
A
went through the four threats in the previous segment. What's re. Review those really quickly, just the names of them and then hit number five.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah. So you got worldview confusion, you've got the identity confusion, you've got emotional overwhelm and then you've got the intellectual or information overload. So those four things, they're kind of stacking and so they're kind of stewing in this. They're in a culture of distraction. And that's really, the fifth one is kind of a two parter. The first is because we live in, it's a shallow, we have a shallow way of thinking about faith. And so if they've been raised in a Christian environment, unfortunately, sometimes they never think about truth is something that they have to actually arrive at themselves. Maybe it's their parents, maybe it's their church or it's the activities or whatever it might be. But it's a shallow mindset. But here's the flip side of it. It's the distraction. Because here's the thing, Frank, you cannot build a deep faith when you have a distracted mind. And this generate. And that's one of the things that AI and all the influencer. And honestly, the short form videos that 60 seconds and under is doing in the next generation is they're literally not able to stay with ideas long enough to formulate the right reflective questions to go deeper.
- [25:48]
A
And if you say that again. I didn't get that. Can you say that again when you come back to.
- [25:53]
B
We're literally not able to formulate. Yeah, it's happening to all, and this is all of us. Right. But if we. And so if we're feeling overwhelmed, we're confused, we've got the weight of our identity, we're emotionally overwhelmed, and then we're just distracted. It's like squirrel. We're off to the next thing. And then I can't stay with an idea long enough. Then I can't build a deep and lasting faith because I have a. I'm not asking the right questions. I don't give myself enough time to do it. And then I also think that I can rely on somebody else's faith. And that's a lot of times what I see with students is they'll rely on mom and Dad's faith or their youth pastor or their church or something like that, rather than the ownership. But then they haven't taken the time to really go through those things. And we can talk about how to build it in a minute. But that idea of kind of that shallow faith, distracted faith, people, you know, it kind of flows from that emotional, hey, how you feel determines what's real and what's true. Well, if that's what happens and you're distracted, then you never get to the positive side of formation, of building, of confidence, of clarity, because you don't spend enough time on it. So every one of those five threats is working against building a faith that's going to last a lifetime. They're just attacking a different aspect of it. And that's a key thing for us to understand.
- [27:10]
A
All right, now, I know that churches tend to. And youth groups in particular tend to try and solve these problems, whether or not they know they exist. And these are five approaches that don't work. What are the five approaches that don't work to address these five threats?
- [27:27]
B
Yeah, stop doing these things. Essentially. All right, so here's the first one. The first one is entertainment or.
- [27:32]
A
And by the way, before we go any further, Jonathan knows this because he's been working particularly with youth for at least a decade, if not longer. And you've done all the research on this and you see young people coming through impact 360 all the time they're there in residence and they come in for two week sessions sometimes as well in the summer. Sorry, I just want to set that up. He's not just making this stuff off the top of his head. Go ahead. Five approaches that don't work. Go ahead.
- [27:56]
B
Yeah, thanks, Frank. No, the first one is this is an entertainment mindset when it comes to this. Just more fun. We need to just have more fun. More events that'll. And here's the thing. And if we have enough fun, they'll stay connected to Christianity for a lifetime. They won't. The reality is, is the world is more fun for a season. Sin is fun initially until the consequences hit. Ecclesiastes talks about that. And so the reality, the first thing, and I'm not saying make people miserable for Jesus, that's not what I'm saying. We have a blast. Impact360. We have. I love working with students. I love being a dad, having fun with our kids.
- [28:27]
A
You can do both at the same
- [28:28]
B
time, have a great time. But. But fun is not a strategy. Fun is not a strategy for building last fights. That's the first one. Okay. But so many people aim at that and it's huge. The second one is this one. It's bubble wrap. This is where you overprotect. And the tendency here is well intentioned. And I mean this with. Also as a dad of three, I know you're a dad. I mean, there's a time for protecting our kids and we don't want them to get hurt. We don't want them to feel discomfort or even whether that's an intellectual or emotional discomfort. But if what happens is in our youth groups, in our churches and in our, in our homes, if we overprotect them from these ideas that we know are waiting on them when they leave home that we know are going to be on the TikTok and are going to be on Instagram and going to be on YouTube and everywhere else, right. If we overprotect them from that, then they are simply not ready. Because the only way you build muscle is by resistance in working out. The only way you build faith is by having it tested and stretched. And like you're Going to have to grapple with that. And so we make a fun environment which creates no resistance, and then we bubble wrap them. So they never hear anything that's really challenging or have to do anything's really hard when it comes to their faith. And if they're either homeschooled, private school, or public schooled, you know, depending, each one has different challenges, but especially the Christian environments, they can get really good at giving you the right Christian answers without ever having to test them and ever actually having to own them. So those are big. And again, we've homeschooled our kids, We've sent them to Christian schools. I love them. They're great. I'm not saying don't, but there's some occupational hazards in there, there, because they can learn the lingo. And then they think they've got a stronger faith than they actually do.
- [30:05]
A
All right, hey, let me amplify what you just said there, because I've had discussions with Katie Faust. She's been on the program several times, and she's big on them before us. That's her ministry that we ought to take care of our kids before us in the sense that she's talking about, you know, don't get a divorce and put all the work on your kids. You do the hard work of staying together. But she also talks about being. Bringing up kids, even kids in blended families, which are hard enough. It's hard enough to bring up kids, but in blended families is even harder. And she says this, that, and I've heard this before. We actually had this philosophy in our house as well. You need to be the first person to talk about these hard, controversial issues, that your child hears about these issues from you first. So then when they hear it out in the world, they. They already are inoculated to a certain point, and they can talk to you about it in a kind of advisory way. Oh, my mom already told me about this. My dad already told me about this. So I know this is coming. I know about this. Same sex talk, this, trans talk, this, this. What are some of the other issues out there that kids deal with? Evolution.
- [31:16]
B
Evolution.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah. What, Whatever. We've already talked about it. And I remember her saying this. I asked her, okay, when is a good time to talk to your kids about, say, trans issues? And she said, a year early is better than five minutes too late, right? Yeah. So that's kind of what you're saying too. You. You don't bubble wrap or you shouldn't bubble wrap them in the sense you don't address These issues, you address it with them directly before they hear it out there.
- [31:46]
B
Absolutely. You want to be the first one to introduce. And here's this is important too, especially to moms and dads, especially on this point. You want them to see you as somebody who knows stuff and can speak into their world. And if you. Because they're, they're getting a feed on every complex issue of the day in every ridiculous meme going on all real time, what they want to know is, okay, what are you going to say about it? What does the Christian worldview have to say about this? And so that narration is so important. So don't overprotect them. Introduce it. And I promise you, you won't regret that. You will regret waiting too long. You'll. You won't regret going too early on some of that. And I wish. Right. I'm a dad. I've got two girls as well as the oldest son. I wish I didn't have to have some of the conversations I've had to have with them by earlier. I wish we didn't live in that kind of world, but we do. But I don't want them finding out from those things somewhere else. Right. So we can't bubble wrap them. All. Right. And so the third thing, and so these last couple, make sure you stay for my full explanation because these are going to sound a little strange at the beginning. Right. First one, this one is attending church. Attending church is not a strategy. Now, is going to church a good thing? Yes. Is church true? Absolutely. But here's what I mean by that. If you are thinking you're just going to drop them off on a Sunday morning or maybe a youth group, and that by itself is going to build a lasting faith that is not going to, because the ownership doesn't happen there. Attendance only mindset. And again, I'm not saying it's kind of like our entertainment thing. Yeah. Don't make them miserable. Have fun and teach them stuff. Yes. Make sure they're going to church. But don't just trust on outsourcing your faith or their faith. And don't just think that if you're checking a box that they've been there enough. Because the reality is if they're on screens five, six hours a day and they're in church, one hour of content a week.
- [33:38]
A
A week. Yeah.
- [33:39]
B
I mean, which, which one, which one do you think? Just the law of influence. Which one's going to win?
- [33:43]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:43]
B
So. So I mean, so the reality there is that attendance only. And again, church is a Good thing. Go to church, right? I'm not saying don't. I'm just saying don't trust in that only by itself.
- [33:53]
A
Good. All right, what's number four of the threats?
- [33:55]
B
Yeah, so the next one then is.
- [33:58]
A
I'm sorry, things that don't work.
- [33:59]
B
Yeah, things that don't work. And just. Just have more faith. And so it's like, if you had enough faith, then, then you would be. You'd be okay. And here's the thing. Now, faith is very important, right? Hebrews 11:6 says, without faith, it's impossible to please God. But over about 2,000 times in the Bible is knowing and knowledge. Words show up. And the reality is this is kind of this mindset that creeps in. It's like, don't think too hard, just believe. But it's kind of like this. It's like, okay, well, go off to college. Let's say we had a test. We're like, hey, we're going to try to hold our breath for 10 minutes. Neither one of us is going to make it. You know, one of us is going to last longer than the other. Maybe we've trained for that, maybe two minutes. But eventually you're going to have to do what? Take a breath. In the same way, if they're only holding on to their faith by sheer willpower, eventually, without reasons, without relational anchors and rational anchors, they're not going to have anything to hold onto. And so the faith alone piece is not the faith alone piece, but the just have faith, stronger faith element. Faith and faith's sake mindset is not going to be enough. That will evaporate in about 10 seconds once the challenges come.
- [35:06]
A
I've heard so many kids get turned off from the faith because when they ask questions, the answer was, stop asking questions. Just have more faith. They've left. Yeah, they've left Christianity because of that. Why should I believe this? You just. There's no reason behind it. You're just supposed to will to believe it. Why? All right, how about number five?
- [35:27]
B
Yeah, this one. This one's also important for me to clarify. But the Bible says so. And here's why this. Because. Because just think about it.
- [35:36]
A
Same kind of answer.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, well, the Bible says so. Now, do I think. Think the Bible's the word of God? Yes, I. I teach on that. High school, college, grad level, Bible, apologetics, the whole thing. But here's the thing. For them, that's still the question, not the answer. And for a lot of people, it's the question, not the answer yet. Because eventually you'll come to a place where, yeah, I do trust the Bible. I've got good reasons why it's true. And, and I'm going to build my life on it, especially when the circumstances get crazy, when the instrument panel is all I got to go with and my emotions and the life is falling apart. And I got to trust God because I know whom I've believed is able to guard what I've entrusted him, like second Timothy talks about. But initially if you just say the Bible says so, the Bible says so, the Bible says so. And they don't have a reason why the Bible is true. They're like, well, that's the question I have, is can I trust this? And so if it's faith, have more faith or trust the Bible until you taught them how to go through those things, that's not going to help them. Those don't work.
- [36:29]
A
All right, what does work? That's what we're going to cover in the next segment with my guest, Jonathan Morrow. Go to welcome to college.org for more about the book and a free PDF that will help you with your young person or even with yourself. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Back after the break. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist on the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country. I've got a couple of things I want to mention before we go back to Jonathan Morrow. We're going to be this Monday night with the great Rob Schneider, yes, Saturday Night Live comedian who is now a Christian. We're going to be together here north of Charlotte at Freedom House Church in Cornelius. It'll be 7:30pm it will be live streamed, Lord willing, on our YouTube channel. That's the 27th this Monday night. Then on the 30th, this Thursday night we'll be at UT, University of Tennessee, Elisa Childers and myself. And Elisa is going to talk about why she almost left Christianity and what evidence kept her in. And then we'll take your questions. I'll also give some evidence for Christianity. And then next week we're going to be I will be at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. That is the 5th of May, so anywhere near Albuquerque. Love to see you come out. That'll also be live streamed the following night. I'll be at Skip Heightsix Calvary Church there in Albuquerque. I love Skip, so I think I'll be doing the Wednesday night service there. Check all that out on our website. Crossexamine.org you can see the events there. Let me go back to my friend, Jonathan Morrow. Jonathan, we've talked about threats to young people and even older people. We've talked about things that don't work in order to make them disciples and to repel these threats or neutralize these threats. Give us some strategies. Why don't you give us some parental strategies that parents can use with kids to help them become fully devoted followers of Jesus.
- [38:36]
B
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Yeah. So the first thing that you want to start with is if you're a parent, mom and a dad, even grandparents, is this is you want to create space for them to ask questions and express doubts. That's the very first thing you got to create space for them. Now, doubt in and of itself is not a virtue. Doubt is good on the way to something stronger. Doubt literally means being between two minds. But you want to create space for this. And here's kind of a real practical strategy. I call it the freak out rule. All right? So as a mom or dad, let's say your kid comes to you and you're like, hey, you know what? I'm not sure what I think about this. My good friend is gay, and I'm not sure I think Jesus would just love them. Or I'm not really sure that God exists. So here's your pause moment. This is the freak out on the inside, not on the outside moment. Because here's what you want to do. You want to say something like this. That's a really good question. Thank you for asking me that. That phrase right there is so important because here's the alternative view and then I'll come back to it. If you freak out that moment or you unload or didn't you. Didn't you go to church this week? Haven't we raised you better than that? Don't you know the answer to that or you know those kind of. There. Read your Bible more. We're gonna. You're going to church 78 times this week, whatever it might be. What happens is what they. What. What your son or daughter has done in that moment is one of the most courageous things they could have done. They came to you with a doubt and a question, and they opened themselves up. But guess what? If you freak out in that moment or shame them for asking or any of those kind of things, guess who's the last person they're going to come to next time they have a really significant question? It's going to be you. And you want to be that person. And so you Freak out on the inside, calm on the outside. Hey, let's explore that together. And if you don't know, tell them you don't know because they can fact check you real time with Chad, GBT and everything else. And like, just like, that's. That's an interesting question. Can we explore that together? And you've created yourself time. Grab a copy of welcome to College. Grab a copy of Frank's book I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. And you can walk through them like nowhere to go, but you want to create a safe place for them to ask questions and express doubts, because that is foundational for ownership, and that's the first key principle we want to get at.
- [40:42]
A
Yeah, let me amplify that too. I think it's important to distinguish between questions and doubts. Everybody has questions, right? Nobody knows everything. Of course you're going to have questions. And just because you have a question doesn't mean you have a doubt. But even if you do have a doubt, you ought to drive that doubt into the ground. You ought to get every piece of evidence you can to answer that doubt. And thankfully, there are great answers out there. Any doubt that you have about Christianity, someone has answered, I think, pretty thoroughly somewhere. And that's why it amazes me. There are these high profile, a lot of them musicians, you know, in recent years, they said, oh, gee, I. I can't become a Christian now because of LGBTQ or because of evil. As if nobody has ever thought of these issues. You know, it's like they just, oh, this is a grave problem. Or, you know, killing the Canaanites or what appears to be slavery in the Old Testament. Nobody's, oh, I just discovered this on my own and now it can't be true. Calm down, calm down. By the way, if you have blown it with your kid already, you need to go to them and apologize and say, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have reacted that way. It just caught me by surprise. I'd really love to talk about that issue. Let's talk about it. You can recover. In other words, give us another strategy.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah. Second one is they need reasons for faith, so they need rational anchors. So the image you want to have in your mind here is rebar and concrete. So the rebar that you put in there kind of interlocks, right? And then the concrete you pour over it, and it gives it the flex so it doesn't crack. That's what reasons for faith does, because it doesn't always have emotional power in the moment. But what you're doing is you're giving them things about why Christianity is true. Does God exist? You know, faith is not blind. Truth is not relative. You know, beginnings require beginners. Moral laws require more law givers. Design requires a designer. You can trust the Bible. Jesus was raised from the dead historically, we can know that. I go into all this stuff in welcome to college. But you need to give them reasons for faith so that they're not just kind of holding their breath like we talked about before, or holding on to faith for faith's sake. But they've got that rebar that's going to give them the stability. When a tough conversation with a friend, a skeptic, a professor, or just a life circumstance happens, they're going to be able to withstand that and the reasons for faith because that gives them confidence, but it also positions them. And this is the key, Frank, is we're not just trying to create students who just survive. I mean, we want students who are on mission, who are actually going out there making disciples, who make disciples and are confident in their faith. And that doesn't happen unless you know what you're talking about, at least on the main things. Like if you, if you were really good at playing guitar, if we were talking and we're like, hey, tell me the best guitars. You would tell me the hey Taylor talking meanie Gibson. Okay, cool. You're not defensive about in the least because you know stuff about guitars. Same thing too, about reasons for faith in Christianity. So reasons for faith. You want to narrate reasons for faith. Truth is what corresponds to reality. Faith's not blind. You want to, you want to kind of move through that. So reasons for faith, space to ask questions and doubts. Those are two of the five.
- [43:39]
A
All right, give us another one. We got, we got time for at least one or two more.
- [43:42]
B
Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to hit. I'm going to hit this one. Wise relationships. This is so important. We talked a little bit about before, but let me say it this way. There's four key ones that they've got to have, and this is vital. It's a personal relationship with God, not a transactional relationship with God. If it's behavior modification, one of the things I see with students is they've got this transactional relationship with God that's never been a personal one, where they have a personal knowing God kind of relationship. That's key. Parents. You have to have a good relationship with your parents so far as it depends on you. Third, mentors, someone further along in the Christian faith in you. And then fourth peers that you can run with. Second Timothy 2, 22 talks about that because they're going to shape your faith. Two big circles. There's an is Christianity true? Circle. And a bigger circle is do I belong? For students, the do I belong? Has the biggest gravitational pull. That's the big circle. And if. And if the people that where you belong don't share your Christian worldview but they accept you, guess which one you're going to give up first. You're going to shift on my Christian worldview because they accept me and I belong there. So that's. That's vital for us to understand.
- [44:47]
A
Yeah. How do you convince a young person that they're hanging out with the wrong crowd and that that crowd is probably going to cause them to change their WorldView? In fact, Dr. Geisser used to say this, that fraternity will almost always overpower theology. And what he meant by that is, is that quite frequently, if we are in a relationship with somebody that we really like, we're more apt to agree with that person than we are with God. So how do you deal with that issue?
- [45:22]
B
Yeah. So I think the key there is you want to, as a parent, be able to dial up who they spend their time with as much as you can. So that's the funding and the food. Those are two simple, practical things. Have food at your house, bring them around so you can influence. Have funding. Hey, invite so and so to go with us because we're going to go do this thing that's fun that you guys would enjoy. And then let's invite that family or that friend, because sometimes they don't always see it. And you can always make it a little more difficult for them to hang out with the people that probably aren't a good one. And the inner circle needs to be people who are following Jesus. So those are a couple quick things on. On the friends.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah. We always tried to make our house the hangout house, you know, for their friends. So first of all, you knew where they were at your house. But secondly, then you could be an influence also on the other kids.
- [46:08]
B
Yeah.
- [46:09]
A
So I remember one of the best compliments we ever got was from one of my son's friends who said that he told my son, when I grow up, I want to have a marriage like your parents have. Wow. You know, so we were like. Because he spent a lot of time at our house.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah.
- [46:26]
A
And so, yeah, it's better if you can be the magnet for that. Then you don't know where they are and what they're doing and, and if you can do that, if you can make your house the hangout house. Yeah, it's going to take a little bit of work and hospitality and maybe some money. Yeah.
- [46:42]
B
But you're going to invest in something. I guarantee you won't regret doing it. You know you want.
- [46:45]
A
That's right. That's.
- [46:46]
B
People invest thousands in travel ball and everything else. It's like, well, let's figure out some ways to get, get us in the right position with these, these, these friends. So.
- [46:55]
A
Yeah, and I, I think you would agree that, that grounding someone in the Christian faith is a lot cheaper and a lot more successful than trying to rescue somebody who left the Christian faith.
- [47:07]
B
Yeah, for sure. Well, and one of the other one things I want to share is they need a grown up worldview. And what I mean by this is a lot of students drift away on the inside during the high school years and then they have sentimental feelings about their faith as a kid and their parents. It's not even malicious. It just doesn't do any real work for them in the real world as they see it when they go to the next season in college. If we've not talked about Christianity in a sophisticated way, I mean, students take AP everything, dual enrollment, all the things, AP chemistry. And yet they're understanding the Bible. It's like, okay, Joseph, many colors and Daniel and a lion's den and a colored coloring book, Jesus, that's going to evaporate in about 10 seconds.
- [47:48]
A
And so they're not Bible stories, they're historical accounts.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:52]
A
And you need to teach it that
- [47:53]
B
way and you narrate it. So the grown up worldview and then they need, and this is key, they need a vision for life and God's story. They've got to have a personal skin in the game, like, wow, God is up to this. And you mean I get to be a part of that. I get to use my gifts, my talents, my passions and I get to be part of the Great Commission. I get to tell people about Jesus and make the gospel clear. I get to use my gifts, my talents. You mean I give them away and introduce them to the vision and the mentors and the opportunities that get them animated and activated to do that. They need a vision for their part in God's story.
- [48:26]
A
And how do you do that? The book has practical ways to do that. Again, the book is called welcome to College. Go to welcome to college.org and you'll get a free PDF if you go to that website as well. Jonathan, great stuff. Thanks for being on the show and writing this book.
- [48:39]
B
Hey, Frank, thanks so much. Always good to be with you.
- [48:42]
A
That's Jonathan Morrow, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to college.org Very practical book, not just for kids going to college, for adults, too, but especially for the young people. So pick it up. Good graduation gift coming up here. So check it out. WelcomeToCollege.org Great being with you, ladies and gentlemen. Lord willing, we'll see you here next time. God bless. Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give today@crossexamined.org.