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I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Angels, Demons, and Aliens: What's the Evidence? with Billy Hallowell
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- [00:03]
Frank Turek
Ladies and gentlemen, is there evidence outside the Bible that angels and demons exist and are active? What about aliens? And if angels, demons and aliens do exist, then why isn't their presence more detectable? I mean, you know, some people have said they've had experiences with angels, demons and aliens, but why do we have to rely on other people's testimony? I mean, they could be making it up. So why doesn't God just give us all the same experiences with angels, maybe even demons and aliens? And what does the survey data show about perceived experiences that people have with angels, demons and aliens? We're going to get into all of that, attempt to answer those questions here today with the author of the book Playing with Fire, A Modern Investigation Into Demons, Exorcism and Ghosts. And. And he's also the producer of several films, including his latest called Investigating the Supernatural. Amens. Amens, Angels and Demons. And I'm, of course, I'm talking about my friend Billy Holloway. Billy is a veteran journalist. He's written over 14,000 articles. He's worked with CBN News, Faith Wire. He's also worked with Purific. I can't even speak today. It might be demons. Ladies and gentlemen, Pure flicks, the Blaze. And as I say now, TBN or not, tbn, cbn. I'm messing this whole thing up. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, the great Billy Holloway, all the way from the People's Republic of New York. Billy, talk about demons. No, I'm sorry, Talk. Talk about angels, demons and aliens. You live in New York and you're a Christian. How does this happen, Billy?
- [01:50]
Billy Hollowell
You know, it happens because you get married to somebody who lives down here and there's family here, and then you stay and you think, okay, it's sort of like this bizarre mission field in a lot of ways. But there is a day, let me tell you, Frank, where we will move to Florida or Tennessee. Those are the two goals.
- [02:09]
Frank Turek
Either or Florida or Tennessee, both in
- [02:11]
Billy Hollowell
split time between the two. But right now, this is where we are. We've been here. I grew up in upstate New York and then moved down to New York City for college and have not left. So it's been over 20 years of enduring here.
- [02:22]
Frank Turek
Now when you consider upstate New York. Cause look, I'm from New Jersey and people in New York City would consider upstate, like Westchester, which is just like, you know, a few miles up the road from Manhattan. I went to college, University of Rochester, New York. Now that's upstate. That's up on Lake Ontario. When you consider upstate, what's that for? You.
- [02:41]
Billy Hollowell
Well, so I live in Westchester, so I live quote unquote, upstate right now. But I actually grew up in Rochester. Where you went to school. I grew up just outside of Rochester. I did, I did. So that's like practically Canada, right? I mean that's really, really upstate.
- [02:53]
Frank Turek
Yeah, it's way, way up there. We had. It was a good place to go to school because it was always snowing. It's like, you know, if. Unless you cross country skied, which I did. You did. We weren't outside a lot. It was brutal. Speaking of demons. Anyway.
- [03:07]
Billy Hollowell
Freezing. It's freezing up there. Yeah.
- [03:09]
Frank Turek
Now this. You're in the middle of a series, actually a video series on investigating the supernatural. The film we're going to talk about today is called Angels and Demons. And you're looking into evidence kind of outside the Bible. We know what the Bible, in fact, we'll talk about what, what the Bible says a little bit about those topics. But why did you decide to investigate angels and demons?
- [03:33]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, you know, this is, this is really interesting because when, when CBN Films came to me and decided, you know, hey, we want to work on this project, we were going to do a TV show. We were gonna do a series, a three part series. And we thought, okay, we wanna hit miracles, we wanna hit angels and demons and we wanna hit heaven and hell. Cause we were thinking, what are the big supernatural topics that Christians debate about, talk about that we see in scripture. And so we started making a TV series and we started filming the miracles portion and immediately knew our director, Jared Anderson, who's brilliant screenwriter as well wrote all these films, he started saying, look, we can't do this in 30 minutes. We cannot do a miracles episode in 30 minutes. That actually tells these. So we ended up shifting to doing miracles as a film and this turned into a film series. And so angels and demons being sort of the middle, we're doing miracles, angels and demons and then heaven and hell, near death experiences will come out next year. That was really a decision, I think of how do we balance these topics out? Everybody loves talking about miracles. Not everybody believes in them, but everybody loves talking about it. It's feel good Angels and Demons. Gets a little trickier, right? Because you've got to start really looking at parts of scripture that yes, the angel parts are encouraging. Although I find it interesting every time an angel pops up they're like, do not be afraid. And we can kind of talk through some of that. But when it comes to demons, that's where things get really tricky. But yet culture is obsessed with this topic, right? Yeah. Every October, every movie that comes out is pretty much a ghost demon movie. And they're not doing it theologically correct, but there's interest there. And so we wanted to sort of tap into that and help people understand from a Christian perspective what. What is actually going on out there.
- [05:12]
Frank Turek
Ladies and gentlemen, for atheism to be true, every single spiritual experience in the history of the world, whether from the good side or the evil side, has to be mistaken. Now, is that possible? It's possible, but is it reasonable to believe? I don't think so. There are. There's too much even testimony outside the Bible that there's a spiritual realm and, and there's a good side and an evil side. And in fact, the Apostle Paul talks about this. Let me start with this passage here, Billy. I know this is central to sort of what we're. We're going to talk about. It comes from Ephesians, chapter six. And here is Paul talking about essentially the spiritual realm. As we know, when he's in Ephesians 6, he's really talking about application. How do we apply what he's talked about theologically for the first three chapters? And then beginning in chapter four, he's talking about application. Here's what he says in Ephesians 6:10, and I'll get you to comment on this. He says, finally. Sorry. Yeah, finally. Six, ten. Finally. Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. And then he goes on to say, put on the armor of God so you can extinguish the arrows that are sent to you by Satan or by his demons. So this obviously shows that Christians can be influenced, maybe not possessed, but influenced by demons by Satan. Otherwise why would you need the full armor of God? But what do you think he means by saying he's talking about the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
- [07:04]
Billy Hollowell
You know, this has become one of. You know, I was telling somebody the other day, and I don't want. And I want you to push back on me, Frank, if you disagree. But, you know, when I look at the Bible, I kind of obsess over John 3 as a chapter and then Ephesians 6. Now I look at both of these things, obviously talking about salvation, and then okay, once you're in it, what do you do with it? Right. How do you live it out and what is actually happening around us? I think over the last year, in particular, a lot of us are watching the things that are happening. You've seen things firsthand that have happened that we just know are flat out evil. Right. And we start to ask questions. Well, what is happening in the heavenly realms that is actually impacting, you know, or in the other realms that is impacting what we're watching happen in our temporal realm? And so, you know, I think what Paul is talking about is a very real battle that I don't. I'm not sure. And I think if you had asked me this two years ago, I would have had a very different take on it because I wouldn't have thought about it enough. But these projects have forced me to think about every single thing now. And I shouldn't say every single thing. Cause sometimes we just use our free will to do stupid things. But even in some of those. Even in some of those categories, there are things that might influence us to make certain decisions. Not always. Sometimes it's just us. But my point is we can't really understand what's happening in our lives, in our politics, in our culture, in society, if we don't actually understand Ephesians 6. Because there is a battle between good and evil. And it has real implications. And it sort of even brings me back, you know, to Daniel 10 and looking at what's going on there. And I know people have different takes on some of this, but, you know, the idea that Daniel's sitting there and he's praying and 21 days go by and the angel finally reaches him, and that the Prince of Persia has held up this angel from sort of delivering the answer to Daniel's prayer. And you think, well, that's interesting. What's going on that could be causing that delay. So the point is, things are happening that we don't always understand that are impacting our world. And what you were saying before, I think is so important and so interesting that you have a dynamic where as Christians, we sometimes assume, and I want to say we do not need to be afraid of evil to the point Jesus has already won, but the battle's still going on, so we have to be aware. This seems to indicate that even as Christians, we can be impacted by. Why else do we need to take up the armor of God? Why else do we need to pay attention to what's going on? So there's a lot there. But my mind has Shifted. I used to think it was just the non Christians who had to deal with evil and had to deal with. But oppression is very real and so we gotta be aware of that.
- [09:34]
Frank Turek
Yeah, and there's a distinction between possession and oppression. And a psychiatrist in the movie that we're talking about today will unpack that for us and we're going to talk more about it with my friend Billy Hollowell. The brand new documentary is called Investigating the Supernatural, Angels and Demons. We'll tell you how you can access it here right after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. I'm Frank Turek. Back in just a few minutes. Angels, demons, aliens, are they real? Is there evidence outside the Bible for them? That's what we're talking about today with my friend Billy Hollowell, who's got a brand new documentary called Investigating the Supernatural, Angels and Demons. I just saw a screener of it yesterday. Very well done. I want to say it's about 75 minutes long, has some very interesting testimony in it. And before I go further, let me just mention that every. Most of what you know, you know by testimony, fact. CS Lewis made this point years ago. Even in science, scientists have to rely on the testimony of other scientists to tell them what their findings were. Because nobody can do all the experiments or investigate all this stuff themselves. What you believe, you believe largely on authority on testimony of other people. So you just can't discount testimony. If you were to discount testimony of other people, you would know very little about reality. Because there's only three ways you can learn. You can learn from your own experience, the experience of others, or through direct revelation. And you don't have enough time to learn through your own experience. So you have to rely on the testimony of others. And this new documentary brings in the testimony of others. And it's up to us to evaluate whether or not we think this is reliable. Now, Billy, you in the video, in the movie say, hey, I'm skeptical of this stuff. I know you're a Christian, you weren't always a Christian, but why would you be skeptical of angels and demons?
- [11:42]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's actually really healthy to be skeptical of stories. When people come to you and they say, look, I encountered a demon or I encountered an angel, you know, my first question is always, okay, well how so? And then prove it to me. And that was sort of my philosophy going into these stories. Because some of these stories seem unbelievable on paper. You hear about them, you read about them. And by the time we got out to film, we had done a lot of research on these stories. So a lot of people have asked me, like, oh, how did you choose what not to film? And did you have things you had to throw out? No, because before we filmed, we were fairly certain that there was something at least very interesting about these stories. But I think that as Christians, it does us a disservice to just believe every single thing we hear. Now, we don't wanna be on the other side of dismissing every single thing we hear. Because I think a lot of people in the church today are not actually talking about these things. And in not talking about them, people come to just say they believe them, but they actually don't live a life out and a faith out that indicates that they actually do. And so that's a real problem. It's sort of like finding this balance between believing right. And having a healthy skepticism. So I like to have a healthy skepticism. I like people to prove things to me. And look, at the end of the day, I actually think a lot of these things. And we can dig more into this, but especially with this project. And by the way, people can go to cbn.com supernatural if they wanna watch this film. But I think at the end of the day, this actually becomes an apologetics tool. Because if These cases are TR and you can get to a 90 to a 99% proof of, hey, we think we have evidence that something happened here beyond the, you know, the norm, something we can't explain, then it becomes an apologetics tool to help people actually find faith. And I think a lot of young people right now in particular are looking for things they can grab onto that will help sort of bring them into the fold and help them maybe understand that the faith details are being given. Now, you would know that better than anyone. Cause you're on the front lines of dealing with these young people. But that has been something that I have felt sort of pressed on me as we've been working on this, that these, again, when they're credible stories can be apologetics tools.
- [13:46]
Frank Turek
Before we get to demons and aliens, let's start with angels. And you cover this more in the second half of the film. But I want to start with a gentleman who was in a major accident up in Wisconsin. Kind of give us an overview of what happened there. I know his first name was Bruce. I can't remember his last name now, but it's up in Wisconsin. Give us what happened there, Billy.
- [14:05]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, this story was the heart, really the hardest to believe, for me, in a lot of ways, because of a lot of different factors. But Bruce, Bruce Venata, he was crushed under a semi truck, and he was doing some work on it. They had it on a jack. It was not on it. Appropriately, as he's under it, this massive truck lands on him and really crushes his entire abdomen. He died underneath that truck. Okay. And so when that happened, Bruce claims a series of events unfolded, much like we hear in a lot of these near death experiences. He said he rose 15ft above his body. He was sort of staring down at his body, not really recognizing that it was him, which I think is really interesting in that story. But he said as he was watching his body under this truck and another man's calling 911, chaos is ensuing. He saw what he described as two angels putting their hands on his abdomen. And just to give people an idea of how severe these injuries were, he said it was like his entire stomach was crushed down to about an inch. Right? Like all of his organs, everything crushed, five arteries were severed. I think only one person has survived before this with three arteries that were severed. So this was a situation where there was not any hope at this point. He had died. He's watching these angels, he said, put their hands over his abdomen. And that's interesting because what happens next is he actually comes to and comes back without. They couldn't do CPR on him because of the injuries. He comes back, he's taken to the hospital, they give him a prognosis of there's no way he's gonna survive. And this guy kind of has the trifecta because he not only had the near death experience of floating above his body, he has the angels, he claims, over his body putting their hands on his abdomen. But he then has a miraculous healing, which we could talk a little bit more about in a moment. But when I heard this story, my first thought was, okay, well, clearly this guy could have made this up. Obviously he was injured. Obviously this happened. Was he delusional? Was he seeing things? But there's a detail that really struck me in this story. Bruce was able to basically tell everybody who came through the back door. So there were two paramedics who came through the back door during this whole thing. He could describe what they were wearing, what they looked like. Now, here's the problem with that. Bruce was dead under the truck. The only way he could have seen those people coming through was if he were 15ft above his body, as he said he was during this case. Now, that's a Detail that gets my attention. So we have Bruce in the film. We also have one of the paramedics that came through that door, and we also have the man who prayed over him where he said he experienced the healing. So there's a lot of other details in the story, but Bruce is alive and well today and survived this horrific ordeal. And he believes it was the angels he saw putting their hands on him that actually stopped the bleeding and saved his life.
- [16:59]
Frank Turek
There's at least 100 of these veridical NDEs that have been verified in the academic literature. And we say veridical, ladies and gentlemen. What we mean is they can be verified. You can't verify. If somebody says, oh, I died and I saw my grandmother, there's no way to verify that, but you can verify someone who says, who describes something they couldn't have known unless they were above the room. Some of these veridical NDEs where people can see miles away. You know, the typical ones are there's a guy on the operating table and he, when he's brought back, he says, I just saw an accident on third in Maine. I was above the hospital. It was a red Cherokee and a black Mercedes. And then the doctors later check it out and go, yeah, at that time there, that's what happened. How does this guy know this? Right.
- [17:47]
Billy Hollowell
There's another one I have to share that is wild. There was a woman who claimed she rose above her body, went out of the hospital, you know, had this nde, and she said, there's a pair of sneakers on the roof of the hospital. And she was able to, you've probably heard this one describe those sneakers. You know, there's a sticker on top of the ceiling fan. These are the things that, I mean, you have to. At the very least, if you're a skeptic or an atheist, you have to say, well, what in the world? How would they have known this person had never been on the roof of the hospital? How'd they know the color of the shoes, the location of the shoes? So there are a lot of these stories, and then there are many others that we had to root out because we couldn't. Not because they're not true, but because there weren't details like that where we could say, okay, something else is going on here.
- [18:30]
Frank Turek
So in this case, you not only have a veridical near death experience that can be verified, you also have the presence of angels. Why did you think he was telling the truth about the angels?
- [18:44]
Billy Hollowell
You know, I think the thing with the angels that intrigued me and by the way, angel stories are a lot more difficult. Let me tell people that. Demon stories, which we'll talk about, they're a lot easier because demons stick around. Demons want to bring glory to themselves. They want to, you know, either oppress or possess people. Angels show up and they leave. If you look at Scripture, every time they show up, they deliver a message and they leave, or they show up in the case of lot, they're there to sort of help, and they move on, right? They're not there to bring glory to themselves. And we see that from Scripture. And so it becomes harder, actually, in practice when you're trying to find stories to prove that angels were there, It's a little bit tougher to actually find some of that data. But the thing that was most compelling on that front, and this is not admittedly a slam dunk on the angels in this story, but the fact that he had five arteries that were severed, and there's really no explanation for how those arteries were able. I mean, you bleed out when one artery is severed, right? So something during this time, and it took a couple of hours for him to get to a hospital where he could properly be treated, something stopped that bleeding. And so we found that very compelling and interesting because he's not a medical doctor. This is a mechanic, right? So he doesn't know the ins and the outs of how this works. But what he described were these angels very literally placing their hands on those areas to stop that bleeding. And so something stopped the bleeding, at the very least.
- [20:07]
Frank Turek
And later in the film, the doctor who did surgery later, there's a healing involved in this film where somebody comes in, some guy's told, some evangelist is told, you got to go pray for the guy in Wisconsin. Then what happens?
- [20:22]
Billy Hollowell
So this other guy named Bruce is told to go pray for Bruce. And he is. God tells him, go. And it's a $900 plane ticket. So his first reaction is like, I don't. I don't want to go buy a $900 plane ticket. They had met one time on a cruise or on a vacation somewhere. They didn't know each other well, but he knew that he was injured. And so he feels God, tell him to go. Now, what had happened because of these horrific injuries and why Bruce Venatta was going to die. So he was in the hospital for a year, and they were like, you're not going to survive this. Right. Even with all this medical treatment, because he had lost his intestines, most of his intestines in surgeries, and because of the accident. So this other man listens to God, gets on the plane, goes to the hospital and prays over Bruce. Now Bruce says while this man was praying over him, it was almost like a snake was uncoiling inside of him. He had this very strange feeling. So sure enough, he suddenly starts after this guy leaves, he starts gaining weight back. Suddenly he's doing really well. And the hospital's like, what is going on? Well, they start doing testing and MRIs and suddenly there's more intestine that was not there before. It literally. And it sounds insane. Regenerated to the point of his ability to start to heal. And the doctors were dumbfounded because they're like, we, we didn't measure improperly. We know that this was not there. And so this was one of those stories where you again, it's a trifecta. You end up with this really interesting miracle. And I've been with Bruce numerous times. He came to a conference with me and spoke. I mean this is a person who was able to survive, thrive and get out of the hospital with a death sentence. And he believes it's because of that prayer and what unfolded when God prompted that man to come out and pray with him.
- [21:59]
Frank Turek
So the surgeon that removed a very good big portion of his intestines later had to go back in for another surgery and saw that what he had removed had been actually somehow regrown and was back in there. And this guy went from being an atheist to at least being an agnostic. The surgeon. Correct.
- [22:19]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah. And you see that happen? Yes, it's correct. And you see that happen in a lot of these cases. Right. And it's interesting because there are doctors who don't want to speak. Right. And then there are doctors who are willing to speak. In our first film investigating the supernatural miracles, we dealt with a number of doctors who are actually involved in healing ministry as a result of seeing some of this unfold. So absolutely, though, just an amazing story.
- [22:42]
Frank Turek
55% of doctors have seen what they consider in their patients miraculous recoveries. We'll talk more with my guest Billy Hollowell. His new documentary, which you can see if you go to cbn, is called Investigating the the Supernatural, Angels and Demons. A lot more with Billy after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist.
- [23:11]
Narrator/Announcer
Doctor Frank Turek is equipping people to think clearly and defend the Christian faith. But understanding it isn't the same as being able to defend it. The Cross Examine Instructor Academy is a three day IMMERSIVE Training Experience taught by Frank Turek alongside leading apologists like Greg Koukl, Alisa Childers, Natasha Crane and Allen Parr, you'll learn to present and defend the evidence for Christianity with clarity and even get real feedback. If you choose to present. It's elective and registration closes May 15. Don't stay on the sidelines. Apply now@crossexamine.org foreign.
- [23:56]
Frank Turek
What kind of evidence do we have for those entities outside the Bible? We're talking about it today. Before we get back into our conversation with Billy Hollowell, let me mention on the 13th, May 13th, this Wednesday I'll be at Central Church of God here in Charlotte for the 7pm Wednesday night service. Hope to see you there if you're any anywhere in Charlotte. Then a few days later, I'll be with my friend Jack Hibbs out at Chino Hills, the Giant Slayers Conference. That is Saturday, that's the 16th of May. And then later this month the Colson center is doing a conference. The Colson Center National Conference, Knoxville, Tennessee. We just got back from Knoxville. We were at the University of Tennessee. Me, Elisa Childers and Anna Kitko. All that is on our website if you want to see that interaction. We had a very long Q and A session there that you can see if you go to our YouTube channel from the University of Tennessee. Check all that out. I want to mention too, I know this is a ways off. This is about 14 months off. But next year we're doing two cruises in the United States. We're taking a break from going over to the Holy Land for the first cruise. I'll be with my friend Jack Hibbs. We're doing a Hawaii biblical tour. Yeah, I know it's going to be nice. It's, it's, it's going to be nicer than, say, Egypt in terms of climate. Okay. But check it out. It's going to be June of 2027. Then the next week we're going to Alaska with Gary Hamrick and Irwin Lutzer on a cruise. I don't know how we're going to pack for that. It's going to be hot and then cold. But we're going to have a great time and I hope you can join us. Go to our website, cross examine.org, click on events. You'll see it there. Let me go back to my friend Billy Holloway. Billy, why don't we talk aliens for a minute? Because this film talks about aliens. The film is called Angels and Demons and people can access it where before we go further, you can go to
- [25:46]
Billy Hollowell
cbn.com supernatural cbn.com
- [25:53]
Frank Turek
supernatural there's actually another one on miracles that you'll see there as well. But we're talking angels and demons today. What about aliens? You've got Dr. Hugh Ross, who is known as an astrophysicist. We've had you on this program several times before. He's one of the best on the cosmological argument and the fine tuning argument. You'll find out there. Very intellectual. What is his view of aliens?
- [26:19]
Billy Hollowell
You know, it's so interesting because Hugh's view is that this is really a deception. And I have to tell you, when we were making the decision about, okay, are we gonna include aliens, right? This is over a year ago. We obviously knew that disclosure, you know, these conversations were happening. We had no idea we would be. I mean, literally, as this film was coming out a month and a half ago, all of this conversation was starting, right?
- [26:42]
Frank Turek
About.
- [26:43]
Billy Hollowell
It was really starting to pick up. And so we were really glad that God kind of dropped that on us to address it. And, you know, Hugh's position is that these are demons. They're interdimensional beings that are masquerading and parading as though they are aliens. That people, that the vast majority, and this is important, of sightings, 99% of them, that people are reporting that those sightings have natural explanations, right? That they're not all actually, you know, demons or what have you, or quote, unquote, aliens, but that there is a residual percentage that people are experiencing and seeing something they can't explain. And they're not only seeing it in the skies. There are claims that people have of interacting with, quote, unquote, aliens, right? That they've been abducted by aliens. This is something we've seen again and again and again. And I think 10 years ago a lot of people would have laughed at, but right now this is mainstream. And so you have people like you who are saying, wait a minute, culture is prepared to see alien evidence, right? And UFO evidence and all of that, but maybe we're actually dealing with something that is spiritual and not physical. And so that is his position, that this is a demonic manifestation that is masquerading as these beings, these aliens that some people. And look, there are some people in the church, and we can talk more about this, who do believe that aliens are possible. I've interacted with some Christians who believe that, but that is not Hugh Ross's position.
- [28:06]
Frank Turek
Why does he think that they are not physical but spiritual manifestations?
- [28:12]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, well, this is what's gonna make a Lot of this government documentation. Really interesting, right? Because for a long time, and I think this is an important point, you know, people can say they've recovered, you know, elements of a spaceship from a crash. I mean, you hear this again and again and again. But we've seen no physical evidence at all that would lead us to believe that there's any sort of material that is physically present at any of these alleged crash sites. What we often hear are more about descriptions of what these supposed aliens look like. And so that's one of Hughes big points, is that if these are spiritual manifestations, well, they're literally not physical. And so of course, nothing is physically being left behind that we would see some of that material. Also, the ways in which these aircrafts are reported flying, they defy physics. It's not possible. There's no sonic boom that you would have to have if these spacecrafts were going through the skies in the way that people claim they are. So there's a series of things there. But I think the most compelling and interesting element of what Hugh talks about is the fact that the claims of alien interaction, they mirror claims of possession or oppression. So you can actually put them near each other. I know there are people out there who say, oh no, there are positive alien stories out there and alien interactions and we can address that in a moment. But I think the vast majority of people looking at this know that these are not. They're very fearful experiences for most people. And there's also a whole notion that a lot of the people who have had these experiences that they deal with suicidal ideation. After that, they deal again with a lot of the things that we know come along with the demonic realm. Also in the locations where people are reporting seeing UFOs the most or having these experiences. Those locations also coincidentally, are the places where occult activity is known to be the highest. Well, why would that be? Well, the Bible's pretty clear on this. We should avoid occult activity at all costs. If you're engaging in occult activity, that opens you up to demonic manifestations potentially. And so it would make sense, I think, when you look at the data, that maybe perhaps we are dealing with the demonic and we're not, or the kingdom of darkness. And we are not dealing with actual aliens that are floating around from other planets and trying to come to our Earth. So that would be, in a nutshell, his position on this.
- [30:36]
Frank Turek
I'm writing a new book with a colleague of mine by the name of Phoenix Hayes. It's called the War on Reality. It comes out in September and we were just editing a section of it just this past week. And one of the things that we both came to the conclusion of was that people get involved in the occult not because it's false, but because it's real and it works. In other words, you can do certain things through the occult that may benefit you, at least temporarily, but long term, of course, it's a disaster. Nobody would get involved if it didn't work at all. And so this occult, these occultic practices people are trying to get some sort of benefit from, and that's why they get engaged in it. And ladies and gentlemen, let me reiterate. For just. For atheism to be true, every single occult practice, every single spiritual experience, every single miracle claim in the history of the world has to be false. And why that's possible, it does not seem likely. It seems much more reasonable to believe there is this spiritual realm out there. There is good and evil. And let me mention one other thing, Billy, that, that strikes me because I always ask this question. Well, let me just ask you the question. I'll give my perspective on it. Okay, Billy, you're saying these things happen to certain people. Let's say the, the angelic things rather than the demonic things. If God decided to heal this Bruce guy up in Wisconsin, why hasn't he decided to heal my dad who has cancer, or my son who has cancer? Why is he just healing this guy who has a semi collapse on him? My whole family's been praying for healing. It hasn't happened. What do you say to that?
- [32:18]
Billy Hollowell
I love that question. On our first film on miracles, we dealt with this a lot. And I would say this is the biggest challenge and you know better than anyone so many people have with faith and with God and trying to understand why. You know, one of the things that I have come to peace with and I really have loved about working on these projects has been this understanding of a balance that we have to have, right? Even Lazarus, who Jesus rose from the dead, died again. The miracles run out. Even for those who have miracles. Eventually they run out. He died again, Right? And so we know that death is a certainty. We understand that. We know that. We know as Christians where we're going after that happens. But that doesn't always ease our fear and our frustration when we're watching somebody else get a healing and we're not, or our loved one is suffering and somebody else has gotten it because we wonder, what have we done wrong? What are we not doing right? And the reality is we have to come to a Place where we are understanding that God has a plan and we're called to trust in his plans over anything else, right? And those plans may not go the way we want them to, but at the same time, understanding in that trust that we're also called to believe that a miracle is possible. To know that he can and that we are gonna learn through no matter what we're going through, no matter what the suffering is, no matter what. The challenge is that when we hold that balance, we're in the best possible place that we can be. And I've actually come to a place of comfort in that, where I will fight until the day I die. God forbid I'm in that position to believe that I know God can heal, he has the ability to do it, but that I trust that no matter what he does, that his will is perfect, right? And that I can rest in that. That is tough for us as human beings. I think there is some mystery to it. I once had a philosophy professor, and I've had some people love this, I've had some people hate this. But when I was going to school, going to Bible school, and he said, look, history is sort of like in these two lines, right? Nothing will ever extend outside of those lines. And God knows all the benchmarks of the big things that are going to happen. And there are times that God intervenes to keep things in between those lines and there are times that he doesn't. And so I think there's some mystery there, But I think it all boils down to can we get to a place of that balance of trust and belief, but also full reliance in Him? I don't know if that fully answers your question.
- [34:34]
Frank Turek
No, no. Well, there is no full answer because it is a bit of a mystery. But I will say this. I think too many of us want God to be a formula rather than a person. In other words, we want to plug in certain things we do and we get X, like he's almost a computer program. If I do this, I'm going to get this output right? When God is not a formula, He's a person. And he has reasons, we may know or not know for doing or not doing what he does, but just because we can't say that. Well, what if. If God doesn't heal any. Everybody. I can't believe he's healed somebody, right? That doesn't make any sense. If there's evidence God healed somebody, praise the Lord. Okay, he hasn't healed somebody. I want him to heal, but that doesn't mean he hasn't healed somebody else and he has some sort of reason for allowing that to happen. I do know from what's happened with Charlie Kirk and being there with him, I saw evil up close. And I don't know why God didn't prevent his death. But I do know that what has come from his death, a lot of good has come from it right out, right out of the gate with that memorial service and millions of people, even more than a billion people have seen it now and seen the gospel preached. But I've also seen evil come forward. I mean, when you look at the fact that the Bible, both Jesus and the apostles call Satan a liar or a murderer, an accuser, a liar and a slanderer who wants to steal, kill and destroy. I've noticed that since then through people like Candace Owens and others. What have we had? We had a murder and then we've had lies, accusations and slander seeking to steal, kill and destroy. And Billy, a lot of people don't believe in the demonic. I don't know how it could be more obvious when you see what has come out of this awful event of seeing Charlie murdered. But, but the demonic is out there. And we'll talk more about it right after the break with my guest Billy Hollowell. This is a great documentary you're going to enjoy. Go to the website again. What is it Billy?
- [36:42]
Billy Hollowell
Cbn.com supernatural and we'll have more with
- [36:46]
Frank Turek
Billy right after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have enough faith to be an atheist. With me, Frank Turek. Demonic activity, is that just something that Christians believe or Muslims believe or Jews believe? Actually most worldviews believe most religions believe in some sort of demonic activity. But is there evidence outside of these rep so so called revelations that they occur? Well, we're talking about that with Billy Hollowell. His brand new documentary is called Angels and Demons. And in this documentary which I just saw yesterday, extremely well done. Billy, I want to ask you about a psychiatrist that you have in here who has impeccable what we might call secular credentials from Princeton, from Yale, from Columbia. He's a psychiatrist by the name of Richard Gallagher. How does he play or what does he say? What does he do in this documentary that you've created?
- [37:49]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, and real quickly before I dive into that, we just did a survey with the American bible society and 64% of Americans believe in spiritual beings beyond our own realm. So we know that the majority of Americans believe in all of this.
- [38:01]
Frank Turek
But 64% of Americans believe Americans believe
- [38:06]
Billy Hollowell
that There are spiritual beings that exist beyond the natural world. So 64%.
- [38:10]
Frank Turek
Wasn't there another? I thought I saw in the documentary, I don't know if you can remember it, something about 81%. What was the 81%?
- [38:17]
Billy Hollowell
That 81%, you know, depends on how you ask the question. You know how surveys go. It was a little more of a general question, but over 80% also believe that depending on how you ask the question. We asked very specific questions in this survey about God and heaven and angels. That was a more general question, the 81%. But yeah, eight in 10, when you ask generally, hey, are you open to the fact that there's a spiritual reality beyond our own? Right. A more General. You'll get 81% of the country saying, yes, we ask specifically spiritual beings, so not the spiritual reality. And so still got 64%. And so it's, you know, again. And now, of course, people are more likely to believe in God, heaven and angels than they are Satan, hell and demons, which is interesting. But majorities believe even in demons. 51% believe in demons in this country. So Richard Gallagher was a skeptic, though he was somebody who wasn't sure really what he thought about any of this, and as you mentioned, really solid secular credentials. He teaches at Columbia University. He lives here in New York, not far from where I live. And this is somebody who, when the Catholic Church came to him years ago and said, hey, we want you to come in and be a consultant for us. We want you to look at whether people are mentally ill or whether they're dealing with spiritual issues. He initially said no, because he said, I'm a skeptic. I'm the worst possible person to do this for you. And they said, no, you're actually the best possible person because of your skepticism. But it did not take long for Dr. Gallagher to start investigating and to very quickly become a believer because of what he started to encounter in these stories. They were bringing him people who were dealing with what they believed. And I will say this, theological issues aside and debate aside, the Catholic Church does have a system, right? They have a system top down, where when people come to them for help, they will vet, they will look through. And so he became a part of that system to investigate these cases.
- [40:11]
Frank Turek
And in this film, he, I mean, you interview him for quite a while. There's some stories that he tells. What's his basic conclusion about demons? And give me an example or two about why he thinks they do exist?
- [40:27]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, I mean, his basic conclusion is that they absolutely exist. And that there are times that things extend well beyond the psychological, well beyond mental health. And so he very quickly started learning that one of the cases, and he called it a once in a century case, involved this woman who goes by a pseudonym named Julia. Now, Julia was somebody who was brought to him again by a priest, by the Catholic church. But the night before he met this woman, he did not know she'd be coming to his house, that the priest was gonna bring her. They had two cats. And it's kind of a fun. It's a funny story, but it's not in the context of understanding what was happening to this poor woman, what she had allowed in. They believed this woman was possessed. Not just dealing with oppression, which is spiritual forces outside of you pushing in that she was literally dealing with possession. The night before, his cats start going crazy, which they'd never done before. They're fighting with each other. It wakes him and his wife up. They separate the cats out. His doorbell rings the next morning, and there's the priest with Julia, this woman. And one of the first things that Julia says to him is, how did you like, what happened with your cats last night? And so immediately he's like, what in the world? I've never met this woman. How would this woman know what happened with my cats last night? Now, that's a benign example, because as he's spending time with Julia, he starts seeing her do other things. Like she starts to manifest, speak in other voices. And so. But there's one event that I think is very interesting and very, very telling. And by the way, Julia, just so people understand, she was a Satan worshiper. She was one of those people who was very literally in a cult worshiping Satan. So she had opened herself up in ways that most people don't. There are a lot of other doorways you can open, and maybe you don't even realize you're opening them. She was, you know, openly worshiping Satan. Now, one thing she was able to do is astral project. And this is something that some people might not be very familiar with, but the ability to see what is going on in another location, to essentially project to that location, report what is happening. And you sort of have that information. Now, it sounds sci fi, but there are people who have reported having this ability. She told Dr. Gallagher she was able to do that. Now, Dr. Gallagher was skeptical of that, obviously. So they're in his office one day and she starts saying that the priest who is helping her, he was not there. He was miles away. She's like, oh, he's wearing a blue coat. He's walking next to the river. She's describing what he's doing. Now Dr. Gallagher's very skeptical of that. He actually calls the priest while she's in the office and says, hey, what are you doing right now? Where are you? And the priest says, you're with Julia right now, aren't you? He knew right away what was going on. But he proceeds to tell Dr. Gallagher that he's walking near the river, that he's wearing a blue shirt. Everything she was describing was actually able to be discerned because she was able to do that. Now, how was she able to do that? Well, the demonic enables you to do that. Demons enable you to have certain pieces of information, like what somebody else might be doing. And so that's what was going on there. So anyway, there are lots of other things about her story. But he very quickly realized there were things he could not explain that could only be happening supernaturally.
- [43:36]
Frank Turek
And he had a assessment that, if I remember correctly from the film, about a hundred people that he had worked with as a patient may have been either possessed or oppressed. I can't remember which. Correct.
- [43:51]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, yeah. He had dealt. He had seen a hundred. He had seen, not in his practice, but he had been brought into, I think, 100 possessions and maybe 800 oppressions. I think that those were the numbers. Now, in his own practice, he did not see people just coming to him for help. He did not see many possessions. It is interesting because there will be debate on this. Right. You have deliverance ministers who might come in and say in the Protestant world. Well, we think maybe he's under emphasizing some of these numbers. We see a lot more people dealing with oppression than he did during those 30 years. People will debate that, but he has a very high benchmark for what he thinks obviously is a possession or an oppression. But he has seen 100 possessions in his career. And so it's pretty remarkable when you see that now Julia's story ends kind of tragically. And so I won't get into all those details. And there were other things. He was on a phone call too, with the priest, and Julia was not there. They were talking about Julia and a voice came over that both of them heard, a threatening voice telling them to leave her alone, to stay out of it. I mean, they had very insane things happening. That's why he said this was a once in a century case and really a tragic one, honestly.
- [44:59]
Frank Turek
Yeah, because apparently she called him at one point and then she never called back. And I Don't know. I don't know if it was verified in the film, but it was the thought that she had died about a year later. Has it been verified that she has passed on, or were you not able to figure that out?
- [45:20]
Billy Hollowell
It has not been verified. He has never heard from her again or reached out to her again. She had reached out. She had cancer after this. She told him she had cancer after this. What is interesting is that what we do know is that she had not found healing. That part was verified because she was calling back, asking for another exorcism. But the problem, and this is important, she didn't want to separate herself from it. She knew it was bad. She knew she was being overtaken by this evil. But she enjoyed, as you were saying before, the benefits she was getting from it, the things that were effective that she was experiencing. And so she was torn in the Ephesians 6 battle within herself and was unable to, or unwilling, rather, to make a decision to fully separate from that. So we don't know what inevitably happened to her. He believes she passed away, but that story, I mean, there's so many other elements to it. He wrote a book on it as well, I think, called Demonic Foes, I believe is the title of that book. And so people can check out more of her story there.
- [46:15]
Frank Turek
So do you think it's the case that somebody who is possessed still has agency over their faculties? In. Most of the time they can. Like in. In this particular film, she's talking to him as if, you know, I kind of want to get out of this cult. She knows he's in a cult, but on the other hand, I don't. So she was aware of her faculties and was in control of them. But there were other times when she wasn't in control. It was like the demon was speaking through her, correct?
- [46:44]
Billy Hollowell
Yeah, no, absolutely. And that. And that was happening. And I think you see this even in scripture. You know, there are certain cases, and obviously we only have the windows that we're being given. One thing that's interesting, we're never told how people in the New Testament get possessed. We're never told in any of their stories how they got there. We just meet them in that state. But even in those states, you have the little boy who's sometimes being thrown in the fire, thrown in the water. Right. But it seems like there are moments that maybe he's. That's not happening to him. But then you have the people, guys coming out of the tombs where they just seem completely out of control. All of the time. So it probably depends on the level to which that possession has taken hold, how long it's been going on. I've interviewed other people who have gone through this who have said they've had lucid moments, right? But then they have moments they can't remember when evil will take over. And so in her case, she had the ability to fluctuate between the two. And you wonder, and this is part of the mystery, if she was meeting with them, she clearly had something in her that wanted to pull away from it. Does God give you a little bit more grace than that where there are moments where you have the ability to make that choice? She clearly did not make the choice that she needed to make at the time. She needed to make it, at least in the beginning of that, to find that freedom, which is heartbreaking. But I do think the bigger issue is oppression. What Paul is talking about in Ephesians 6, that is the thing. Possession is much rarer, right? Oppression is something that any of us could be dealing with and will deal with. And we've got to be prepared. And living like Christians, people will say, well, how do we avoid. Well, you live like a Christian. You pray, you read your Bible, you live a daily Christian life so that you can take a stand against the devil's schemes and you can win. And to me, that was the biggest takeaway and the most convicting part in my own life of am I living this life the way I need to? And this project really challenged me on a lot of that personally.
- [48:29]
Frank Turek
All right, we're running out of time here, Billy, so give us again the website where people can see the video.
- [48:35]
Billy Hollowell
It's cbn.com supernatural.
- [48:39]
Frank Turek
You'll see it there. Billy, great work as always. Thanks for being on the show.
- [48:42]
Billy Hollowell
Thank you.
- [48:44]
Frank Turek
That's Billy Hollowell, ladies and gentlemen. Go to that website, check it out. We'll put it in the show notes as well. This is real and you need to be aware of it. Angels are real. Demons are real. Aliens are probably demonic manifestations. But a lot more is is in that documentary. So check it out and Lord willing, we'll see you here next time. God bless.
- [49:08]
Narrator/Announcer
Dr. Frank Turek is equipping people to think clearly about faith, truth and today's toughest cultural issues. This is just the starting point. If you're ready to go deeper, explore Cross Examined online courses@cross examined.org.