Can You REALLY Follow Jesus and Stay Silent on Politics? with Pastor Josh McPherson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Can You REALLY Follow Jesus and Stay Silent on Politics?

I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Pastor Josh McPherson (Grace City Church, Wenatchee, WA)
Release Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the question: Can Christians truly follow Jesus if they remain silent on political and public issues? Host Dr. Frank Turek is joined by Pastor Josh McPherson to discuss the inseparability of faith and public action, the church’s role in politics, and historical and current examples of Christian political engagement. The conversation is rich with practical, historical, and theological insights into why engagement in the public square is not only permissible but necessary for Christians in America today.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Integrity of Christian Living (00:03–06:08)

• Dr. Turek opens with an analogy: A man who’s “only married at home” is not truly married everywhere. Likewise, Christians who restrict their faith to church or home compartmentalize their devotion to Christ.
  • "What area of your life should not be run by Jesus and the apostles?" (A, 00:35)
• Pastor McPherson shares his story: Growing up and pastoring in Wenatchee, Washington, starting Grace City Church focused on strong men, flourishing families, and unapologetic proclamation of the Gospel.

2. COVID-19 as a Catalyst for Christian Engagement (06:08–09:36)

• Washington’s pandemic restrictions widened McPherson’s awareness of government overreach and the lack of church engagement:
  • "Pastors rolled over...just quoting Romans 13 wildly out of context, said, whatever the government says we're going to do." (B, 06:09)
• Grace City Church doubled in size as Christians, abandoned by their own churches, sought leadership that would stand against governmental oppression.
• They took legal action against the governor to defend local autonomy and religious liberty, underlining the necessity of lawful engagement.

3. Why Christians Must Not Be Apolitical (11:04–14:17)

• McPherson’s central point: If Christians do not get involved in politics and community, politics will get involved with them.
  • "You can choose not to be involved in politics if you want. Politics is going to be involved with you." (B, 11:08)
• Disengagement creates a vacuum filled by unrighteousness.
  • “When the unrighteous rule, the innocent...groan. Righteousness rules, the righteous rejoice.” (B, 12:22)

4. Christian Influence in Government—A Case Study (14:52–18:29)

• McPherson has visited the White House on multiple occasions, engaging with President Trump’s administration through the Faith Office, directed by Paula White.
  • Trump’s administration focused on faith, family, and opportunity; policies included redirecting funds from Planned Parenthood to pro-family initiatives.
• Proximity to power: “Proximity is power. I want you here. I want you speaking in everything we’re doing.” (B, 15:39)
• Highlighted the protection and expansion of religious liberty.

5. Allegiances Beyond Agreement (18:29–21:21)

• Dr. Turek and McPherson clarify that working with people like Paula White doesn’t require total theological agreement.
  • “I don’t even agree with myself half the time...Paul[a] gives those relationships away.” (B, 19:15)
• The political arena requires alliances across theological differences for common good and freedoms.

6. America’s Moral Foundations: Theocracy vs. Republic (26:32–34:01)

• Distinction between a theocracy and a constitutional republic:
  • “A theocracy is when you're imposing religious rights and rituals that aren't part of the natural law… All laws legislate morality. The only question is, where do you get your moral standard from?” (A, 26:40)
• Christianity and America’s founding: The Founders used biblical moral law (especially Deuteronomy) as a basis for national law but did not mandate Christian faith for citizenship.
  • “Christianity described what our country was built upon but it didn't prescribe that you had to be a Christian in order to be an American.” (A, 31:04)

7. Christian Humility and the Authority of God’s Word (34:42–36:19)

• McPherson identifies humility as intrinsic to Christianity:
  • “To become a Christian is to fundamentally acknowledge, I suck, I'm a sinner, I failed, I don't have what it takes, I need to be full scale rescued and saved.” (B, 35:06)
• In contrast, asserting a moral standard apart from God is arrogant and narcissistic.

8. Political vs. Theological Overreach (37:41–45:51)

• Defining lanes: Individual, family, church, and government each have God-given jurisdictions.
  • Government’s job is to reward good and punish evil—but who defines good and evil?
• Dr. Turek: “Has the church gotten too political, or has the government gotten too theological?” (A, 36:19)
• The “black robe regiment”—pastors who led both spiritually and materially during the American Revolution, organizing local defense and moral mobilization.
  • “The black robed regiment became to symbolize pastors who not only preached truth, but were willing to fight for and defend truth in real time…” (B, 44:19)
• McPherson calls for the rise of a new Black Robe Regiment—pastors boldly engaging in public life and government.

9. Reforming, Not Overthrowing, Government (45:43–47:05)

• McPherson clarifies they do not advocate violence but for reform via the “tools of truth” and democratic participation:
  • “Long before it gets to bullets, let's do it with the ballots.” (B, 47:04)
• The risk is that passivity will eliminate nonviolent avenues for reform.

10. Upcoming Event: American Congress of Christian Men (47:27–48:46)

• Announcing the "Freedom Conference: Rise of the Statesman" on Father’s Day in George, Washington.
  • “We're calling the men of our country to a town named after our founding president to stand up, show up, speak up for the founding values that made America so great.” (B, 48:07)
• Intended as the largest gathering of Christian men in America for the nation’s 250th anniversary.
• Registration at strongermannation.com.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Christian compartmentalization:
  “What area of your life should not be run by Jesus and the apostles?” — Dr. Frank Turek (00:35)
• On political engagement:
  “You can choose not to be involved in politics if you want. Politics is going to be involved with you.” — Josh McPherson (11:08)
• On humility and faith:
  “To become a Christian is to fundamentally acknowledge, I suck...I need to be full scale rescued and saved.” — Josh McPherson (35:06)
• On government overreach:
  “The government has started anointing itself to make proclamations on things that God gave the church to be the authoritative voice on.” — Josh McPherson (39:21)
• On the unique role of Christianity in society:
  “Christianity provides the freedoms that no other world religion would do.” — Dr. Frank Turek (31:25)
• On the Black Robe Regiment:
  “The black robed regiment became to symbolize pastors who not only preached truth, but were willing to fight for and defend truth in real time…” — Josh McPherson (44:19)
• On means of reform:
  “Long before it gets to bullets, let's do it with the ballots.” — Josh McPherson (47:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:03–03:29 – Introduction & marriage analogy, introducing Josh McPherson
• 03:29–06:08 – McPherson on Grace City Church’s origin & principles
• 06:08–09:36 – Response to COVID-19 & the political awakening
• 11:04–14:17 – Christians’ need for public engagement
• 14:52–18:29 – McPherson’s experience at the White House
• 26:32–34:01 – Theocracy vs. constitutional republic; origin of American freedoms
• 34:42–36:19 – Christian humility vs. self-righteousness
• 37:41–41:02 – The church, government, and public responsibility
• 41:02–45:51 – Black Robe Regiment & church leadership in culture
• 45:43–47:05 – The necessity of nonviolent reform
• 47:27–48:46 – Announcement of the Father’s Day “Rise of the Statesman” conference

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Final Thoughts

The conversation underscores the critical need for Christians to integrate their faith with every aspect of life—including political participation—and not cede the public square to opposing worldviews. Pastor McPherson’s experience and leadership exemplify a bold, winsome approach to public faith, echoing the historical impact of Christian leaders in America's founding. The episode calls pastors and lay believers alike to reclaim their role as salt and light, shaping society not only spiritually, but politically, for the good of all.

Conference Link: strongermannation.com

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"If the church self silences themselves, that community, that nation, that people group, loses its moral compass..." — Josh McPherson (40:08)

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, what would you say about a man who was married, but he was only married when he was at home? He wasn't married when he was at work, he wasn't married when he was online, he wasn't married when he was out with his buddies, he was only married when he was at home. You would say, well, this man is not really committed to marriage. Then he's trying to do something to his wife that he shouldn't be doing. He's not really devoted to her, obviously. Well, ladies and gentlemen, why do we as Christians think we just need to be Christians? Maybe just in church, maybe at home, but we're not going to be Christians at work, we're not going to be Christians online, we're not going to be Christians in the voting booth. We're not going to be Christians out there in our community. We're only going to be Christians at church and at home. Would that be a real devotion to Jesus? I mean, what area of your life should not be run by Jesus and the apostles? Or what area of your life should you not follow? Jesus and the apostles? That's what we're going to talk about today with a brand new friend of mine who I've seen on so many podcasts and I just admire the guy so much because he's a leader among men. He is the great Josh. Not McFerson. There's no fear in McPherson. He is the great Josh McPherson all the way from the middle of Washington state, ladies and gentlemen, where. All right, enough. Where he has this huge church. Josh, you're not supposed to have a huge church in the middle of Washington state. What's going on? How did this happen? Who are you?

[B]

I love you, Frank. I've never met anybody like you, bro. This is fun. This is fun. What was your question? I loved your introduction. Well, so good.

[A]

I want to know how you are a pastor. An evangelical Bible believing the Bible's inerrant pastor with a big church in the middle of the People's Republic of Washington. You're in some town in the middle of Washington. I can't pronounce the name. It's an Indian name. What is that? What is the town?

[B]

Wenatchee.

[A]

When Ashe.

[B]

When at Chi Chi.

[A]

Not Chi. You're like two and a half hours east of Seattle, right?

[B]

Yep. Not nearly far enough.

[A]

Now we're.

[B]

We're one gas tank away from the crazy. So we got it. We got to stay awake and stay alert.

[A]

Stay awake and stay alert. Now tell me, how did this come to be that you are Essentially a megachurch pastor in a non megachurch state. What happened?

[B]

Yeah, crazy story of God's grace. Lots of different ways I can answer that. But I was born to the two most remarkable people on the planet, and they happen to be my mom and my dad. I was reading a biography of the Wright brothers and someone asked him, what would you tell someone if they wanted to follow in the path of your success? And the oldest Wright brother said, well, you need to be born. And then he named his hometown. He said, and then you would need to be born to. And then he named his mom and dad. And basically what he was saying was he took no credit for his life because of the. Of the providential grace of God in his life. So when I look at where I'm at, it starts with my mom and dad, my heroes, the greatest people I know. I want to be like my dad when I grow up. And there's no one on the planet like my mom.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

She's just a remarkable woman. How they have loved me, shepherded me, discipled me, embraced my wife, discipled us, launched us. It's just remarkable. So was born to Greg and Candy McPherson. Huge heart for marriage and family and men, and. I was born in Wenatchee, Washington, and I am by nature a homebody. I live just a few miles from where I was born. I have no interest in ever moving. And most of the guys I know who pastor churches are on their second, third, fourth or fifth church, and they're multiple towns away from where they were born. I am living, I am building my family and I'm growing my church in the town I was born in. I love my hometown and a homebody didn't want to move. I think Washington's the greatest state in the Union. Hunt, fish, hike, boat, be outdoors, cut, chop, firewood, experience, you know, agriculture, farm country, farm life and. Yeah. And so about 20 years ago, we thought we'd plant a church. And it started very humbly in a living room with some folks with a vision for calling men to step up and lead and calling families to take seriously their responsibility to shepherd children and launch them into the world with their hair on fire, for Jesus sake. And a vision for what it would look like if we had a church built around unapologetic proclamation of the good news of the gospel, where we actually believe it's good news. So many guys apologize for it, like it's not good news. I mean, I literally hear pastors say things like, frank, you know, I really wish I didn't say this. And they're they're apologizing for what God has declared to be good, true and beautiful. And so an unapologetic pulpit. Strong men, flourishing women, happy children. Prioritize household in the context underneath the jurisdiction of the church. Boldly, courageously, unapologetically, without hesitation or. Or fear, engage in a culture like what. What would happen? And so we were just growing about 100 a year, pretty modest. And then Covid hit and the whole world changed. Our state went crazy. Our governor lost his mind. He declared a state of emergency, took over all executive powers, took power away from the legislative branch, basically pretended there was no judicial branch. All the judges were in his pocket anyways. And started legislating from press conferences every Friday about what businesses could and couldn't do, what families could and couldn't do, what churches could and couldn't do, what individuals could and couldn't do. It was a. It was a gross misdemeanor for over almost five months to leave your home for reasons other than shopping or getting an abortion. And so, bro, it just woke me up. I'm like, what in the world is going on? And the most disappointing thing for me, Frank, was not evil men who acted wickedly. It was Christians who acted cowardly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And by and large, pastors rolled over. And by and large, pastors just quoting Romans 13 wildly out of context, said, whatever the government says we're going to do. And I'm like, the government just said to close your church. The government just said that you can't sing on a Sunday. Simultaneously, the Seahawks are still playing and 50,000 people are cheering their favorite player. And abortion clinics are open and liquor stores are open and strip clubs are open, but churches are closed and small businesses are closed. Furthermore, the small Mama Pop brick and mortar businesses were forcibly closed, but box stores stayed open. Costco had a. Had a banner quarter after quarter. And so it just began opening my eyes to the fact that the church had been unengaged publicly and politically, so that when tragedy struck, we had no voice and no authority. And so we appealed to the governor, we appealed to business owners, we wrote letters, we tried to meet with them. He wouldn't meet with us. And so we finally end up taking a legal route. We sued the governor because we want to make very clear that we're not scofflaws, Frank.

[A]

We, we.

[B]

We believe in the rule of law. And so we're going to use the levers afforded us by our Constitution to entreat our government to. To cease and desist their tyrannical legislation and Rule because, you know, and this is why I learned during COVID and I'm all over the map, so interrupt me whenever you want. What separates third world countries from first world countries is consistent application of rule of law. The reason businesses don't invest in African nations is because they don't, they don't know who's going to be in power next week.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They don't know who's going to take and what rules will change. And so we essentially became a third world country in Washington because the rule of law was being declared as executive order and it was changing every week. Literally every Friday he would have a press conference, our governor, and he would change the quote, unquote rule of law. So we decided to acknowledge that he was an illegitimate governor who had, who had illegal and illegitimately taken control of, away from local politics and local elected officials. And so we, we legally rejected his authority. We legally sued him for the right. Our lawsuit wasn't built around CO at all. Our lawsuit was built around local politics. Give our local elected officials the right to make decisions about who elected them in office, don't centralize power in Olympia and then control the whole state. So 42 people in a class action lawsuit. We got to the very last ruling and, and just lost by a, by, by a hair's breadth. It was one volunteer attorney fighting six state funded, tax funded attorneys. And we had a local health district director who wrote us a letter saying that he would step up. And the day of court he didn't show. And so they couldn't ruin our favor because he wasn't there. Long story short, that woke us up. We doubled that year and haven't looked back. And so what I found was you asked how have we grown? What I found was I always said I never wanted to grow the church by rearranging already found sheep in already established pens. I wanted to find new sheep, lost sheep, reach the lost, preach the gospel, I hear, make disciples as an evangelistic call. We gotta go reach the lost, right? And so my philosophy changed during COVID because during COVID I realized many sheep had been abandoned by their shepherds. They had not been fed, they were not being led. And so we decided to open our pen and bro, they all came.

[A]

And it's amazing what's going on now. And we have so much more with Pastor Jock Mc Josh McFerson all the way from the middle of Washington state. And you're not going to believe what he's up to this Father's Day. We're going to unpack that we're also going to talk about that little analogy I gave about, about marriage right after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist with me. Frank Turek back in just a couple of minutes. Ladies and gentlemen, Should Christians be Christians in every area of life or just when they're at church or just when they're at home? Shouldn't they be Christians online? Shouldn't they be Christians at work? Shouldn't they be Christians in their community? Should, shouldn't they be Christians in the voting booth? Shouldn't they follow Jesus and apostles wherever they are in whatever they're doing? The answer is, of course, yes. And my newfound friend, Josh McPherson is with us, pastor of Grace City Church in Wenatchee. Did I get that right?

[B]

Josh nailed it.

[A]

Wenatchee, Washington. And he is doing some amazing things to advance the kingdom, including be involved, being involved politically. Josh, you're not supposed to be involved in politics. Christians are supposed to stay out of politics. We're only supposed to be married when we're at home. Josh, what do you say to all this?

[B]

It's a brilliant analogy, and I couldn't believe, I couldn't agree that more. The reality that Christians need to wake up to, Frank, is you can choose not to be involved in politics if you want. Politics is going to be involved with you. And sooner or later, you're going to have a crisis of conscience where you are forced to make a decision, bow to the politics demanding allegiance, or stand against the politics because of your allegiance to Jesus. And so my knowledge of history tells me that whenever the church pulls back and disengages, the vacuum they create is filled with. With the unrighteous and filled with wickedness and evil. And when the Bible says when the unrighteous rule, the innocent people grow, are grown, they grow. Righteousness rules, the righteous rejoice. And so I am increasingly viewing politics. I think this is what your dear friend Charlie was so crystal clear on, and he was helping a generation understand that one of the most profound ways you can love your neighbor is to be involved in this experiment and freedom we call the United States of America. Yes, there is so much por exegesis when it comes to the Bible and applying it to Christians involved in politics, not recognizing that the political structure of the day that the biblical authors were living in and writing it is so categorically different from, from where we are at today. We are in a constitutional republic founded largely on biblical concepts and ideas and principles. And in that Republic. We've been given both the privilege and responsibility and mandate to be engaged and be involved, which means if we don't like what's happening, if we don't like who's in power, we have no one to blame but ourselves because we've been given and afforded the opportunity to make change. And if the church steps away from the public square, I see it akin to the church ceasing to be the salt. When the church pulls away from public dialogue, when the church pulls away from public policy, when the church pulls away from public office, we're taking our salt shakers and we're going home. Jesus said the church is to be the salt of the earth. And so for me, it's incredible. And I'm getting older, right? I'm 46, and I'm realizing I'm in a very, very dark blue state. I'm realizing that if I don't get involved politically, there's no hope for the church because there's no future for families. And all the strong men leave, all the youth are gone, the churches die, the state takes the place of God and everyone suffers. So it's, for me, it's all connected.

[A]

And I always ask people, back in the 1800s, the mid-1800s, should Christians have gotten involved politically to outlaw slavery? And I've never had a Christian say, no, they shouldn't have done that. They'll say, well, of course we should outlaw slavery. Welcome to politics, ladies and gentlemen. If Christians are going to love their neighbors, they have to ensure that laws are put in place that protect their neighbors from evil. That's what you're supposed to do as a government, is punish wrongdoers. And unfortunately, in. In modern times, our government has punished people doing, doing right things, righteous people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And for those of you that are just tuning in, we're Talking to Josh McPherson, who is the pastor of Gray City Church up in Washington state. And, Josh, you, in recent months have been in the White House on at least 11 occasions. You talk to President Trump yourself about certain issues. How has this come about? And what kind of influence do you think you and other pastors are having in the policies that the current administration is getting behind?

[B]

Yeah, it's just a ton of grace. There are a lot of remarkable people in the White House working for the good of our nation. And it began with Paula White and the White House Faith Office. And many people don't understand what Trump has done in establishing the White House Faith Office. It's an historic office. And appointing Paula White as the Director of IT and then pulling the White House faith office into the West Wing. Essentially what that's done is it's given. It's given influence because of proximity. So for people who don't know, the executive office building at the White, on the White House grounds there is where the executive hosts all of their employees. It's this Secret Service and it's the First Ladies team. It's where everyone does all the work. The West Wing is very small, very high value real estate. It's very limited. It's limited mostly to folks in the Situation Room and folks who are cabinet members and secretaries, things like that. This is all common civic knowledge here. When, when President Trump pulled the White House, the White House faith office into the West Wing, he was essentially saying, proximity is power. I want you here. I want you speaking in everything we're doing. Pastor Paula White is a senior advisor to the president. What people may not know is President Trump has a huge heart for religious freedom, for religious liberty, for the church, and for pastors. He all he always has, and his three priorities are bringing religious back. He calls it bringing religion back to America. Faith, family, and opportunity. He wants families to be strong, churches to thrive, and for people to have the same opportunities that he was afforded as a young man, to build wealth and to build culture and to be fruitful and multiply. And so, in doing so, he has charged the White House faith office with rooting out any discrimination they see in our nation institutionally and then codifying into law those laws that will protect Christianity in particular, but religious freedoms in general for our nation. And when I've been in the White House and had to afford the opportunity to listen to high ranking administration officials talk of what they uncovered during the Biden Obama years, it was egregious, Frank, egregious. The kind of discrimination that was being intentionally wielded against Christianity and Christians, from Christian colleges to Christian leaders to Christian nonprofits. So they've, they've been uncovering that and then trying to undo that and then to codify into law really those values that are at the foundation of our nation, allowing people to express freely their, their religion. And of course, we believe that America is a Christian nation, distinctly Christian nation that had branches of Judaism and, and Catholicism grafted into it, but the foundation is distinctly Christian. And I believe President Trump understands that and is working toward that. And so he's invited pastors to be at the table. And I don't want to misrepresent anybody here. I'm not like an advisor to the President, we've had two conversations in the Oval Office, and they were fairly brief, where I just got to encourage him, share some things with him. He's not like, calling me, asking for advice on the day of day, but what I see him doing is inviting pastors to the White House, not for photo ops, but he's asking, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What can I do to help? What do you need? What's going on in America? What could I do to help you do your job better? And for the first time, he's a politician. Position of power that I have seen objectively take clear steps to shrink the size of government so as to expand the influence of the private sector. Because when all the money is going to government programs, guess who has no money left to do their job? The church. And so he's trying to funnel resources back into the church to take the government out of the equation, to let the church be the church, which I deeply appreciate.

[A]

Now, I know that some people listening will go, paula White, isn't she a prosperity gospel person? Okay, yeah. We might not agree. And you, I know you don't. You don't necessarily agree with every theological position somebody might hold, but that doesn't mean you couldn't work with them on these domestic policy issues, correct?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I've actually had quite a few private conversations with Paula, and just opportunity to clarify here. She has a great disdain for the prosperity gospel, and there are things that have been said and done that she has said that have been taken and twisted, blah, blah, blah. Also say, I, I have a deep admiration for Paula and I appreciate him. One of the things, Frank, that, that won me over was, was her relentless work ethic for religious freedom and liberty, even fighting for those people who hate her, run her down, malign her online. She loves him. She responds in grace and forgiveness. And she's like, that's okay. I've done lots of crazy things in my life. She's not proud of a lot of her story. She shares it openly. Lots of hard things there, and she's still working for them, which I find admirable. But, yeah, I mean, having said that, I don't even agree with myself half the time. And so, yeah, so what I see in her is someone who loves our nation, who loves Jesus genuinely, who I believe providentially has been put in Donald Trump's life to serve him, pastor him, speak life into him. And so I see her as a great gatekeeper. And her heart, I'll put this way, DC Runs on power and power comes through relationships. And what I've learned in my short time there is very few people give those relationships away. That's how, that's how they keep power. Paul is just the opposite. She gives those relationships away. Here's a cell phone number, here's a relationship, here's a contact. Call them, reach out to them. She'll make connections with me of people in high positions of influence and then she steps out of the, out of the equation so we can connect and run. She's trying to actually get things done and produce results for the American people that gave President Trump this mandate. And that leaves me with a high major respect for her compared to the guy who blogs and criticizes but never actually does anything right.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, the political tent is much bigger than our maybe theological 10 is when it comes to our church. Because first of all, evangelicals don't have the political power to, to completely do everything we think ought to be done. We're going to have to liaison with people that don't agree with us on every issue in order to, in order for the greater good. That's what politics is supposed to be about, correct? Seeking the greater good. Now I know the Biden administration was actually harassing and even prosecuting pro lifers who are praying outside of abortion clinics. I know pro life homes have been raided in the middle of the night. And some of those people that were in prison, literally in prison under the Biden administration. President Trump pardoned, Correct?

[B]

That's exactly right. There when President Trump was elected in office, there were people in prison in America who were put there because they went to pray outside an abortion clinic. It's hard to wrap your mind around, but that was reality. He pardoned them, he set them free. Hundreds of millions of tax funded dollars going to Planned Parenthood that President Trump canceled, redirecting to family friendly fatherhood initiatives. Grand Canyon University, Liberty University were under lawfare to the tunes of tens of millions of dollars. So hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars going to woke institutions and colleges, conversely, the two most prominent Christian colleges maybe in our country under lawfare from the doj, under millions of dollars of fines. The corruption just went on and on and on and on and on. All this is being uncovered and it wasn't by accident. It was intentional lawfare against Christians, churches, nonprofits, to mute their voice, to cripple them. People wonder where, where did Black Lives Matter come out come from? It came because it was funded by hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars while simultaneously Christian organizations were being starved to death.

[A]

A lot more with Pastor Josh McPherson all the way from the People's Republic of Washington. And there is an event coming up there on Father's Day that you're going to want to hear about. Josh is really stepping out to do this. It could be as many as 20,000 people there. We'll talk more about it after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist on the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country. I'm Frank Turek back right after the break.

[C]

Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe and Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating [e-mail] that's cross examined with a D on the end dot org.

[A]

You know, friend, sometimes I have people write me and say, oh, your show talks about politics, I'm out. Maybe you could be a little patient because we think that politics matters, theology matters. We think everything matters. We think Christians ought to be involved in every area of life, including politics. Before we talk a little bit more about that, I want to mention that this Sunday, Lord willing, that's going to be April 12th, I'll be in New York City. Forget about it. I'll be with my friend David Engelhardt in his church that's called King's Church. It's somewhere around 31st street on the west side around 8th. Anyway, the details are in are on our website, crossexamine.org I'll be speaking at the Sunday morning services there. Then the next day, Regent University, the Make Heaven Crowded tour. I'll be there with the great TPUSA folks. Continue to pray for TP usa. And Erica, if you haven't seen my visit back to the Utah Valley University where Charlie was murdered, it's on our YouTube channel. We both have the entire event on the YouTube channel and also the questions isolated. It's getting a lot of attention. Thanks for your prayers for that, by the way. Then I want to point out that the following week, Lord willing, that's going to be April 21st to 23rd, I'll be at the Faith Forward Pastor Summit. That's through TP usa. It's In Grapevine, Texas, right near the DFW airport the following week after that, we're going to be at the University of Tennessee on the 30th of April. Oh, I forgot to tell you in the. On the 27th of April, we'll be right here in Charlotte with Rob Schneider, the great Rob Schneider. We're going to be at Freedom House Church in Cornelius. That's going to be packed out. It's going to be at 7:30, but if you're not in the Charlotte area, you can actually watch it streaming live on our YouTube channel. And then we're going to be University of New Mexico on the 5th of May and Calvary Church in Albuquerque with my friend Skip Heitzik on 6 May. Much more on our website there. Check all that out. Also, if you're gonna sign up for online CAA, we may only have one or two seats left. You might wanna go to cross examine.org right now and click on online courses. You'll see it there. Let me go back to my friend, the great Josh McPherson. There's no fear in McPherson. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen. Hey, we gotta unpack a few things because there's always objections when Christians say, or, or when anyone says, you know, Christians ought to be involved politically and all this. Josh, tell us first of all the difference between say, a theocracy and a constitutional republic that we have here.

[B]

Well, you should. You just gave me a great definition off the air.

[A]

What did I say?

[B]

Would you define it? Well, you were talking about, okay, a theocracy I thought was really good.

[A]

A theocracy is when you're imposing religious rights and rituals that aren't part of the natural law, like Sharia law would be a theocracy. You know, the Muslims want to put Sharia law in place. They want to take away natural rights that we all have. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, those kind of things. And they want to impose, they want to take those away and then they want to impose their own religious rights and rituals. Like women can't leave the home without a man and they're totally subservient to a man and they got to wear the hijab and all this. Those are religious rights and rituals that are not part of the natural law. All laws legislate morality. The only question is, where do you get your moral standard from? And maybe you could speak to that.

[B]

Where.

[A]

Maybe you could speak to where we get our moral standard from.

[B]

Well, we, we were joking offline. I think I'm becoming more of a, of a theocritist by the day. And we know what I mean when I say that. But part of what I say that is, is when we make the statement natural law or moral law, we have to ask the question, says who? Yeah, and where does it come from? And so what we're saying is fundamentally it's either a theocracy or it's demons. Because, because it's from God's word that we come to understand there is such a thing as natural law, that there is such a thing as a moral law. If we take away God's word, then who's to say what the Islamists are, are enforcing on people all around the world is wrong? And so when I look at Islam, Islam is a religion of imposition, convert or die. Christianity is a religion of invitation. All are welcome who would repent of their sins. And there is room in that understanding for, I believe, a nation to exercise a moral rule of law that aligns with the word of God. So when Christians say that Christians shouldn't be involved politically or that it's not biblical at all, they just haven't read the Bible, or at least with the right lens. One of the main meta narratives of the entire Bible, I believe, Frank, is a story of God clashing with governments. Oh, governments have one, one choice. Either submit to the, to the, to the rule of God or become the rule of God themselves. There's no middle ground. And so when Paul writes in Romans 13 and outlines the very limited scope of government, he's laying out, I believe, kind of like a Korean jurisdictional understanding of, of humanity in terms of responsibilities and authority God gives to individuals, families, the church and the state. When Paul is laying out that out in Romans 13, he says that their job is to reward good and punish evil. Well, right there we're into a moral conversation. Who gets to define what is good and what is evil? And so you can't even have a functioning, legitimate government unless you have some form of theocracy that identifies God as the source of all truth and God as the starting place for all reality and God's word as the foundation that we're called to build our lives on. And so you can't have a functioning government unless they have a source to call balls and strikes on what's right and wrong. And so you look at the Bible, there's an entire book in the Old Testament, Frank, that is designed to set up a government that functions under the reign, under, under the reign of God, Deuteronomy. And so to say that Christianity shouldn't be political or the Biblic. The Bible isn't political, is just a very narrow, a very modern, I, I, I would say modern, narrow, naive reading of the Bible and application of Christianity.

[A]

Yeah, let me, let me draw one caveat or put one caveat on that. Jefferson and our founders founded the country on the moral law but they were informed on the moral law from Scripture because they in their writings quoted Deuteronomy more than any other section of, of any book, not just the Bible. But what we're saying here is you don't have to be a Christian to be an American and Christianity was put in place or let me put it another way, Christianity described what our country was built upon but it didn't prescribe that you had to be a Christian in order to be an American. And the First Amendment gives freedom of religion but it doesn't give one religion the freedom of religion to take away everyone's else right to freedom of religion. And that's what Islam wants to do. It's not a self defeating amendment. In other words.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And, and so Christianity provides the freedoms that no other world religion would do. Islam is not going to give it to you. Hinduism, they got a caste system. Atheism's not going to do it. They don't have the theo, as you said, they don't have a grounding like we have here. We hold these truths to be self evident. So I, I think that people too often don't make the proper distinctions and they think that what we're trying to do as Christians is say impose every aspect of the Old Testament law on people including all the penalties. And that's not what I'm advocating. That's not what you're advocating, correct?

[B]

No, that's just people who haven't read the Bible and understand the nature of the old New Covenants and so when they get, they pull out the gotcha verse from Leviticus which is like, it's like there. Yeah, it's a very simplistic, naive, it's a disingenuous reading of the Bible that's not taking the Bible on its own terms.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In terms of how, of the totality of the teaching of Christ. And I will add a caveat to your cabinet or just continue to clarify this for people. You don't have to be a Christian to be an American. And so that's very, so being an American does not make you a Christian.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

That's very important. Say, and I will say I do believe the founders did not think the government they set up would work for anything other than immoral people.

[A]

True. They said that. That's what John Adams said. Our Constitution is inadequate for anything other than a moral and religious people.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And so it is the moral constraint and the moral clarity that Christianity brings that allows people to enjoy freedom. Without that, it will always devolve into tribalism and chaos or it will centralize into globalism and elitism. So the unique contribution of Christianity is that it teaches us fundamental truths about humanity and the world we live in. The world we live in is stained by sin. Humanity is not to be trusted, left to its own devices because ultimate power corrupts ultimately. And so I think it was CS Lewis that said he believes in a democracy because he believes in the Bible and that no one man can be trusted with ultimate power.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In this fallen state. And so you have to create this three branch check and balance system to keep men in check and then to give a voice to the people, which is what makes the electoral, the electoral college so brilliant.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it has worked for 250 years.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But I will say this as well. We both know that the best, most efficient form of government would be power centralized in one man.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Who was ultimately trustworthy.

[A]

I haven't found that guy yet. That's right.

[B]

Thanks be to God, heaven won't be a constitutional republic. Heaven will be a monarchy. Right. Where the one perfect king will rule authoritatively and perfectly over his people and there will be joy in the land forever. That's going to be a good day. Until then, we work with our constitutional republic.

[A]

By the way, anyone listening to us right now? If you're thinking, oh no, that's immoral to impose anything Christian on people, where are you getting that moral standard from? That's a moral standard right there. If you're saying it's wrong to impose morality, you're imposing a morality right then and there. And when people say, don't impose your morality, I may often say, first of all, why not? Would that be immoral? I mean, where are you coming up with that standard? You're imposing your morality on me right now. And then secondly, these aren't my morals. I didn't make up the fact that murder's wrong, that abortion's wrong, that mutilating children is wrong, that men were made for women and women were made for men. I didn't make any of this stuff, stuff up. It's not my morality. It's not your morality. It happens to be the morality. The one Jefferson said was self evident. Go ahead, go ahead, Josh.

[B]

No, I, I couldn't agree more. And I think that pastors need to understand that point. You're saying right there, Frank, and Christians do as well, is there is an intrinsic Christian, a self righteous Christian is an oxymoronic Christian. Now they exist and Jesus confronted them and mocked them relentlessly. But if you understand the nature of Christianity, it inherently cultivates a kind of deep humility in you. Because to become a Christian is to fundamentally acknowledge, I suck, I'm a sinner, I failed, I don't have what it takes, I need to be full scale rescued and saved. And so to get into the Christian life is a deep acknowledgement of humility through repentance. And then that doesn't get us in the door and we leave it. We should be growing in our humility as our recognition of all that God has done for us in Christ, all He has rescued and saved us from, all he has will and continue to forgive us from. And so this isn't to be a smarmy self righteous Christian. Our way is better. To your point exactly. It is the arrogant, narcissistic worldview that considers themselves and their perspective as seeing all things, knowing all things, having taken in all the information for all time and amalgamated it in a perfect worldview and now enforcing on others. That's the height of arrogance. Christianity says, I don't think I'm that smart. And so I'm submitting my will to a time tested and timely word that is eternal, given to us by a God outside of time that I'm submitting to. That's the authority of Christianity. Not that we show up with our own ideas, right, but that we show up proclaiming his truth.

[A]

Well said. Well said, Josh McPherson. There's no fear in McPherson, ladies and gentlemen, as you can tell. And you're probably thinking, but wait a minute, Frank, there are other distinctions that you're not making here. And like one of them, why has the church gotten so political in recent years? Isn't that wrong? We're going to cover that right after the break and then this amazing conference coming up on Father's Day you're not going to want to miss. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. Back after the break, Ladies and gentlemen. Has the church gotten too political or has the government gotten too theological? Oh, what do you mean by that? Well, my friend Josh McPherson in concert with my other friend Josh Howerton, have talked about this at length. There's some amazing, amazing podcast that the two Joshes have done and that, that's one of the reasons we're having this conversation right now, because I Learned about Josh McPherson from that podcast that you did with Josh Howerton, the Two Joshes. And it was such an eye opening podcast series of podcasts you did. What is the difference between the church getting political and the government getting theological? Explain that difference.

[B]

Well, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the jurisdictional lanes of God's authority and responsibilities he's established for humanity. And so you got to ask the question, did God create humanity? And if your answer is yes, then, okay, did he create purposes for the different jurisdictions of human relationships? And we would say yes. So individuals have certain responsibilities that we hold them to. If you made decisions, you're responsible for those the family has certain jurisdictional authority to exercise. A husband with a wife and a father and a mother with their children, so that the parents have been given a job by God and children have been given a job by God. God says that children are to obey their parents, and that's the first command with the promise. The inference unspoken is this as well. Parents will be held accountable for what they do or do not require their children to obey. So families have jobs. Then you get to the church, of course, word and sacrament, and then you get to government. And so when we think about the church, we need to think of the church in terms of stewarding the preaching and proclamation of the gospel, organizing, strengthening and equipping the body of Christ to make disciples, to strengthen individual humans who go into all the different spheres of society with the light of Christ, with the hope of the Gospel, with the spirit and character of Christ, to make all those places better. When we get to government, the government too is God's idea. I don't think government is fundamentally bad. Government is an idea that God designed for how to collectively organize humanity in a way that causes the most flourishing. So we reject globalism, where power is centralized. We reject tribalism, where power dissipates to the ones with the biggest spears. And we embrace nationalism as a means by which God has given large groups of humanity to organize themselves in an orderly manner that brings the most flourishing. So when, you know, when we get accused of Christian nationalism, I just kind of chuckle and I go, well, what's, what's the alternative? Atheistic globalism? I mean, right? I mean, like, this is crazy. Like, like we need nations to flourish and we want that nation to be founded on a moral worldview. And we think Christianity is the superior moral worldview because it came from heaven, not from man. So when we say, when I've said the phrase, the church isn't getting more political, the government is getting more theological. What I'm saying is the government has started anointing itself to make proclamations on things that God gave the church to be the authoritative voice on. And so I believe God calls the church to be the moral conscience of a people, both government, families and individuals. And when the church self silences themselves, that community, that nation, that people group, loses its moral compass, loses its moral conscience and loses its moral bearing. And that's what we've seen. And so my passion is to encourage and to strengthen and then to help show pastors how they can find their voice again, their God given voice to speak into the public specter so that the word of God is the most dominant shaping influence in any society. And then governments are born out of that, politicians lead from that, families flourish under that. And I believe we, we start working our way back toward what God intended in the garden.

[A]

Yeah, you've said this before. You and Josh Howerton have said that when the government was all about issuing driver's licenses and building roads and ensuring we had adequate police and adequate military, that was fine. But when the government starts veering into the theological in the sense that they're telling us what marriage is telling us what a woman is telling us what that children can be transitioned, that you know, they're, they're not really girls, you can make them boys if you want and vice versa. When they start doing that now, they're out of their lane completely. And if Christians don't speak up, then we are not being salt and light. We're not protecting innocent people from evil.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It's not that that Christians haven't moved rightly understood. We've always said that marriage between a man and a woman, we've always said that men are men and women are women. We've always said that you ought not mutilate children. We've always said we ought not kill children. It's the government that has come in and, and it's really the people through the government have done this because Christians have been silent and, and now that there appears to be this culture war that the Christians really didn't start, it's that the Christians had laid down their weapons long ago, laid down their salt and light responsibilities long ago, and all of this has taken over. Tell us a little bit about the black robe regiment in our History. Josh, before we start talking about the conference you're going to have coming up.

[B]

Yeah. One thing, what you just said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

While Christians didn't start it, I think we're part responsible for it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because our silence created the. The vacuum that evil has stepped into.

[A]

And meanwhile, we've been congratulating ourselves on how winsome we are as the country's going to hell.

[B]

Right, bro? That's so well said. So there's nothing. There's nothing to be proud about. Being silent, letting evil speak.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So when I think of jurisdictions, I think of individuals as a car, families as a mini, as a minivan, the church as a bus, and the government as a semi. The government is. Is the biggest. But it's being driven by a few people. The bus is full of a ton of people. The minivan has a family, and the motorbike has one guy. We're all in our lanes. If we stay in our lanes, everyone's happy. If the government starts to swerve, it's incumbent upon the bus to put itself between that and the other vehicles and honk the horn and rub paint if necessary to keep the government in its lane. Because if the bus hits the brakes like we've done, there's no one standing between that semi and. And the family in the minivan or that individual on the bike. And so when the, when the. When the church pulls out and this transitions to the black robe regiment, this is something that was understood when our nation was founded. The black robe regiment was a negative connotation or a label given to the pastors of the colonial era Americas because Britain realized that it was the pastors causing those problems. So when you think about George Washington, who was an incredible leader, a remarkable man, to be sure, there's about 800 skirmishes in the war for independence, about 250 that were documented. General Washington was only involved in 17. Of those. He only won six. So you got asked the question, well, where was the battle won? Well, the battle was won in the hundreds of undocumented skirmishes when the British would run into local militia defending their own hometowns, because the British would go in to a community and they would burn one building. And that building was the signification of community, of power, of unity in that town. And it wasn't the school, it wasn't the local mercantiles, it was the church. They burned down the church because the church was the center of that community, and the pastor was the most influential man in the community. So when you ask yourself, how did we win the war? The answer is, we won it because of the militia fighting to defend their own hometowns. And everywhere the British showed up. And the question then rises, well, who organized and led the militia? And the question, the answer is uniform in its clarity and objectivity. It was the pastors. The local pastors were not just preaching. They were demonstrating courage and leading local militia. And so there's a great story of the pastor gets up and says, I will not send my young men to die for our country and not be willing to go myself. He takes off his robe, he recruits men for an hour. He leaves the church with 300 men, and they organize a resistance against the British, and it ignites this fire. So the black robed regiment became to symbolize pastors who not only preached truth, but were willing to fight for and defend truth in real time with. With real bullets, in real battle. And my heart is to see the Black Road regiment rise again. Bro. 250 years.

[A]

We're not advocating violence, just to be clear. We're not saying we're going to overthrow the government. We're saying that we're going to reform the government through the democratic process. That we have. Just to be clear.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Black Road Regiment. Well, it's. It's interesting. You read the Declaration of Independence? Yeah. Everyone's got to read it once a year.

[A]

Oh, it's amazing.

[B]

Yeah, it's a. It's a stunning work of intellectual expression. But. But in there, it's, It's. And this is. This is kind of crazy. I don't think we should give the American government a passion and say there would never be a time where we might not have to resist physically. Now, that's a crazy idea to say, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's like. It's like I told some friends the other day, we shouldn't assume that we'll have a nation in 100 years. Probably we shouldn't assume that because we

[A]

might not have a world in 100 years. Yeah.

[B]

History tells just the opposite story. Right. The more natural assumption would be it caves. So the question is, what are we willing to fight and defend for defenders? And right now we have this amazing experiment of freedom called this constitutional republic that allows us and affords us nonviolent means of protest and nonviolent means of bringing about change. And if we give those a pass, there will come a time where we're forced to either compromise or stand and fight. And so what I'm saying is, long before it gets to bullets, let's do it with the ballots.

[A]

That's Right.

[B]

Long before it gets to violence and physically contested wars. Let's win in the realm of ideas and let's win in the realm of politics and civic engagement. And if we stay fighting there with the, with the tools of truth, it will prevent it from going other places where it we don't want to think about.

[A]

All right, Josh, at the end of the day, bro. Yeah, we got to do this. We got one minute left. Tell us about the men's conference coming up and where they can sign up. We're going to put all this in the show notes, but tell us about it quickly.

[B]

Yeah. Freedom Conference, Rise of the Statesman, where we're going to call men into the glorious and noble role of a statesman in their city, in their town, their state and their country. We're calling it the American Congress of Christian Men. It was an American Congress that founded this nation 250 years ago. And I believe it'll be an American Congress of men that will save this nation 250 years later. We're gathering, we're hoping it's going to be the largest gathering of Christian men in the Nation on this 250th anniversary. And we're going to do it in a little town called George Washington. And for us, it's a moment of destiny. We're calling the men of our country to a town named after our founding president to call the men of our nation to stand up, show up, speak up for the founding values of that made America so great.

[A]

And it's go to stronger man nation.com stronger man nation.com there'll be a link to that conference there. You're going to want to be a part of it. I might be there. Eric Maxis will be there. Josh McFerson will be there. Many others. You don't want to miss it. Josh, it's great having you on. We got to do this again.

[B]

I'll look forward to it. Thank you, Frank.

[A]

The great Josh McFerson. There's no fear in McFerson. McFerson. As you can see. Check out stronger man nation dot com. Be there. Father's Day weekend. It's going to be amazing. Hope to see you there. And Lord willing, we'll see you here next time. God bless.

[C]

Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give [e-mail].