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I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Did Jesus REALLY Rise from the Dead? TOP 4 Reasons to Believe with Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston
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- [00:03]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, I just got back from Utah Valley University. That, of course, is where Charlie was murdered. And you can see the entire presentation on our YouTube channel. We've actually isolated the Q A as well. That's another video. So if you want to see that, you can. And I'll have some more to say about that because I talked to several people who were there that day. In fact, I spoke to the first questioner and the second questioner, the questioner who was at the microphone when Charlie was murdered, as well as several other eyewitnesses. So we will talk much more about that in the coming weeks and show you some video from that. But I want to mention there were two things that have really come to the forefront since Charlie's murder in my own life, my own mind, and that is the existence of evil, real evil, and number two, the importance of eternity. Those things, I mean, I think about Charlie several times every day. The first thing I think about when I wake up is Charlie. The last thing I think about when I go to bed is Charlie. Understandably so. And evil and eternity are the two things that keep coming to my mind. And this week, especially the most important week in. In Christianity, the most important week actually in humanity is the Passion week of Christ that culminates his resurrection. And so I thought we would talk about that this week with a friend of mine who is a great scholar in this area and has devoted his life pretty much to the resurrection. He's written over 300,000 words on this topic alone, and he's got new evidence that we're going to talk about not only today, but in the podcast coming up on Tuesday. You're not going to want to miss. And I'm, of course, I'm talking about the great Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, ladies and gentlemen, all the way. All the way from Dallas, Texas. As you may know, he is the cultural and apologetics pastor at the enormous Prestonwood Church down There Baptist Church down there in dfw. Jeremiah, did I ever tell you this? First of all, welcome to the program.
- [02:16]
B
Well, Frank, I love you. Thank you so much for being a voice crying in the wilderness. We've all been praying for you. And just thank you for your amazing story. There's only one Frank Turek, so I'm delighted to have this conversation with you.
- [02:30]
A
Well, thank you, brother. There's only one Jeremiah J. Johnston as well. In fact, there's only one of all of us. We're all unique, ladies and gentlemen. We all bring something unique to the body of Christ. But I don't know if I told you this, but Charlie was murdered on a Wednesday, and we didn't get back to Phoenix until late on Thursday. That's when J.D. vance, as you know, came to Utah with Air Force Two and. And took Charlie and Erica and others back to Phoenix. We took another plane back. But the next morning, Friday morning, my phone rang, and it was your pastor, Jack Graham. And I think you probably gave him my number.
- [03:12]
B
Yes, for your number. Yeah. Yeah.
- [03:14]
A
And I had never spoken to Jack before.
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B
Wow.
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A
But he just called me and he said, hey, I just wanted to make sure you're all right. I mean, he was just being a pastor.
- [03:21]
B
Yep, that's him. Yeah.
- [03:23]
A
Yeah. So I was very touched by that.
- [03:25]
B
You know what's unique about that as well is I was texting Charlie on Sunday night before his assassination. I hope you don't mind me sharing this.
- [03:33]
A
No, go, go. Yeah.
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B
And a good friend of mine, Steve Kearns, who's a supporter of TP USA and on my board, we, Dallas Jenkins, because of a family medical issue, had had to cancel our Worldview event, which you've spoken at Frank many times. It's now the largest biblical worldview in America, thank God. But I was going to have Charlie as a surprise guest. And on the Sunday night before his assassination and martyrdom, we were texting back and forth the details for him to be our surprise guest just a couple of weeks later at our conference. Wow.
- [04:08]
A
Yeah.
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B
He. I grieve with you.
- [04:10]
A
He had so many irons in the fire, so to speak, that were coming up right after this. He was going to have a. I'm not out of turn for saying this, but he was going to have a Sunday night show on Fox News.
- [04:27]
B
Right. Well, I know. I know others as well that were very close to just. He was God. God was raising him up. And who can know the ways of the Lord?
- [04:37]
A
That's right. And raising him up is a good way of transitioning because we know that Charlie is absent from the body present with the Lord. We're still here. We still have work to do. But one day, we'll see Charlie again. As we all know, in fact, everyone is going to be resurrected in the end. The only question is where you're going to be resurrected to. And you've got two books that touch on this. The book I want to talk about in this session is a book called Body of Proof, and it's really about the resurrection and the evidence for the resurrection. Yeah, there it is. And you, in this book, Jeremiah, you've got seven main reasons I don't know if we'll get through all of them as to why you ought to believe that Jesus bodily rose from the dead. Hey, can we establish one thing, ladies and gentlemen, before we get into this, because this is important. We've talked about it a lot on this program that we live in a theistic universe. So resurrections are possible. You know, if Genesis 1:1 is true, every other verse in the Bible is at least possible. And there's very good evidence that Genesis 1:1 is true. So in that regard you just can't philosophy, you just can't philosophically rule out the resurrection and, and Jeremiah. You know, there's so many people that do that right off the bat. But your book. Well, first of all, why did you decide to write this? It's a few years old. I think it's 2023.
- [06:02]
B
Yeah. And surprisingly it's doing better than ever. And I think that's because the resurrection. And I'm so grateful to have to be on your program and just thank God for cross examined. I rely on you, Frank, and your ministry and hope that everybody supports it because it's a go to ministry for answers to the trending questions of the day. But I found, and I don't know if you would agree with this or not, but outside of Easter and the funeral sermons, Easter, the resurrection is rarely taught in pulpits around the world. And so the, I noticed and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the resurrection of Jesus Christ is under taught, it's understudied, and therefore it's under believed. And we have a growing number of individuals, this was shocking to me in my, my research who think you can be a Christian but think that the bodily resurrection is optional. I'm not making this up. Look at all the studies. And so therefore I noticed that there is a deer in the headlights look with many believers when they're asked why do you believe that Jesus physically, bodily rose from the grave? And so I wanted to provide some equipping. I did my PhD in Oxford, spent three years listening to all of the arguments against the resurrection and then by God's Grace published a 93,000 word Uber Lieferungsgeschiste in the German a literal interpretation of Resurrection belief in the Judeo Christian motif. And so I've published widely in the academic boring world. And so I thought, you know what? I'm going to take all of those works and I'm going to distill it down where there are seven reasons, in my opinion, that you can strongly believe that the resurrection actually happened. And guess what? We have the date. April 5th AD 33. Or if you're a 30 person, it's April 9th AD 30. We can talk about that if you want. In other other words, Frank, if we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion and rose from the grave, please don't believe that Caesar crossed the Rubicon. That's how awesome the evidence is for Jesus's resurrection.
- [08:12]
A
Well, what you just said there coincides with, with easter this year, April 5, 33 A.D. ladies and gentlemen, that's1993 years ago this Sunday, Jesus of Nazareth and his human nature was dead. For you said, I heard you say at one point, Dr. Jeremiah, you said
- [08:33]
B
39 hours maybe correct, parts of three days. There's no problem there. Let me help the Bible readers, Mark 12:40, the Pharisees who are always trying to catch Jesus, tell us, give us a sign. He says, I will give you one sign, the sign of Jonah. And on the third day, I will rise again. Jesus messianizes Hosea 6. 2. On the second day, he will revive us. On the third day, he will raise us up that we may live before him. Jesus applies and eschatologizes those passages to himself 69 times in the Synoptics, which for our audience is Matthew, Mark, and Luke. He refers to himself as Son of Man. And he says, I will go to the cross. The Son of man will go to the cross, pay for your sin, and on the third day rise from the dead. And it's amazing to me we know
- [09:23]
A
the exact day, and we're going to get into how we know that exact day. Right after the break, we're talking to Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, a New Testament scholar who also teaches at Prestonwood Baptist Church at dfw. And he's all over the Internet right now, particularly talking about the Shroud of Turin. And we're going to get into that a little bit today, but more so on Tuesday. You're not going to want to miss that. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. With me, Frank Turek on the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country. Don't go anywhere. We're back right after the break. The Apostle Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians, if Christ has not risen from the dead, your faith is in vain. Ladies and gentlemen, do you realize Christianity is a religious worldview? You can investigate and discover whether or not it's true. It's based on historical events it's based on the creation of the universe. It's based on the idea that Jesus actually died and rose from the dead. You can look into evidence for those two things, but I'm not so sure that the scholarly world is agreeing that Jesus rose from the dead. In fact, Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston is here to give us an update on that. What is the current vibe right now in the academic world regarding the possibility that Jesus rose from the dead? Is it even possible?
- [10:48]
B
Do they believe it absolutely plausible? Possible. It's persuasive, but not with all. Many of them have a minimalistic worldview, which means they don't actually believe anything in the Bible. And I, when I appeared in Oxford to do my viva voce, my living voice PhD defense, 93,000 words on the resurrection. And in England, it's pass or fail, so you can never do a PhD again if you fail your PhD. Viva. And a really nice man named William Telford, who could tie an amazing bow tie, examined me. And he was the protege, the disciple of the great William Barclay. John MacArthur often quotes William Barclay. I have William Barclay's books literally in my nightstand. He's phenomenal on Bible backgrounds. The issue is he didn't believe in the resurrection or anything miraculous. And so I come to the viva after three years, Frank, of living in Oxford. And all they pounded in me was, we don't care what you believe. Just trot out your arguments. And also be sure and share your opposition arguments with collegiality and truthfulness. And they begin, my viva. This is December of 2012. And Bill, William Barclay says to me, he said, jeremiah, I want to get one thing straight. And half the words he's using are in Latin. I have no idea what he's saying, so I hope it's good. Who knows? And he says, I just have one question as we begin. Do you actually believe the physical resurrection of Jesus happened, or is that imaginative storytelling? And I said, my lips to God's ears, Frank, for you and your huge audience. I said, david Hume says, wise men choose probabilities without a doubt. I believe that Jesus physically, bodily rose from the grave. That's the best way to examine the evidence. And I've committed my life to Christ because of it. And he said to me, quote, I don't see it that way. Let's begin your viva. He later passed me with commendation, recommended my thesis to be published, which it is. And in the academic world, but that's what I was dealing with. Individuals who read the Bible, they read the Greek New Testament, but they don't they think that Jesus's resurrection is imaginative storytelling? So we have to level up the church and I hope we can do that. In this broadcast I want to update you on all of the evidence that's overpowering for the resurrection.
- [13:13]
A
So someone like that Jeremiah says he doesn't see it that way. I know he was examining you and your arguments in this dissertation. Did he ever reveal why he thought Jesus had not risen from the dead?
- [13:29]
B
He didn't. And he wrote commentaries on the Book of Mark for Fortress Press and others. But there is a. Most Bible scholars are apostates. I mean that we have to be honest about that. Just attend Society of Biblical Literature if you don't believe they've. They study the Bible but they have an 18 inch problem. They know it in their mind, but they have no commitment to it in their heart. And so this is where the power of the resurrection is a living hope for every single one of us. And I realized walking down the roads of Oxford that day after I passed my viva, we have a lot of work to do to update the church on. Why? Because let me make this clear. There are 260 chapters in the New Testament. There are 300 passages on the resurrection. We have quote only 66 passages on the crucifixion, we have 300 on the resurrection. Like CS Lewis said, brother Frank, to preach Christianity is to preach the Resurrection. Make no mistake, without it there is no Christianity.
- [14:30]
A
Exactly right. And so many people think Christianity is just about being a nice person. That's probably why they think oh, I don't have to believe in the resurrection or all this superstitious miraculous stuff. I can just be a good person. That's what they think all about. Yeah. Quite obvious. You were such a good person, Jesus wouldn't have needed to have come. That's right.
- [14:48]
B
And pay for your sin.
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A
That's right. Let's talk about some of the seven reasons we won't get through all of them.
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B
Yep, happy.
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A
But here's one that isn't often brought up but I actually think needs to be rehabilitated. And John Lennox has made this point as well. And you put it this way, it's reason number one. Society is transformed everywhere. Christianity is introduced and embraced. Unpack that for us, Dr. Johnson.
- [15:12]
B
The Christian movement, the Church of Jesus Christ, which is all the body of believers, is the greatest force for good on planet Earth. There isn't a close second. When a tragedy happens, when anything happens that's evil. It's amazing to me the first people in are born again Christians who believe that every human being is made in the image of God, the resurrection compels them because of 1 Corinthians 15:58. Therefore, be strong, be vigilant, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing your labor in the Lord is not in vain because of the resurrection. And then the very next passage is, we gotta take an offering. People are suffering right now. So there's an argument from the resurrection to Christian ethics and the resurrection. A resurrection centric faith empowers us to make a difference in the world today. And so the X factor of the church in the world, hospitals, universities, education. Let me be very clear. The rehumanization of women, children, that all comes out of the Christian worldview. I was just in Davos, Frank. I couldn't believe it. I'm speaking to the people who will work with the Antichrist closely someday, and I'm presenting the arguments for the resurrection of Jesus. And I make it clear that the event horizon. That's the way I put it, the event horizon of free enterprise, forgiving debts, loving your enemies. You know, this is the World Economic Forum, you know, not a lot of talk. This was the first time in 55 years a faith panel had been held. And I said, that comes from one worldview. It doesn't come from Marxism. It doesn't come from socialism. It comes out of the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus. That's what rises and falls with what we're discussing today.
- [17:02]
A
You know, it's interesting what you're saying today. We're talking to Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, ladies and gentlemen, if you're just tuning in, that even Bart Ehrman agrees with you on that point. Bart Ehrman, atheist slash agnostic, New Testament scholar? Yeah, apostate. I mean, he said he was a Christian early on, but no more. And he's since just retired from Chapel Hill. He's written a new book called. I think it's called Love your Stranger or something like that. Sean McDowell just had him on his podcast, and he and Sean kind of went at it over what is the basis of morality. That's what most of the podcast is about. But even Bart Ehrman is agreeing that Jesus seems to have changed the conscience of his followers and therefore the entire world, the Roman world at the time, by his morality.
- [17:53]
B
That's right. And that's the resurrection. Make no mistake, infanticide was no big deal. When you look at the law of the twelve tables and Rome, we actually have a letter. I've published this both in academic and popular settings called Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 744, where Hilarion is writing a letter to his wife Alice. She will give birth to her child before he returns. And let me say it in Greek. It's a beautiful love letter for Valentine's, by the way, except for this one part in Greek. He writes to his wife, by the way, if it's a boy, keep it. If it's a girl, throw it in the trash. No one would have batted an eye until this man named Jesus comes on the scene and says, let the children come to me. He speaks to the Samaritan woman in John 4. And this is the beauty. If you're listening or watching right now, Jesus will rehumanize you, even if the trauma you've been through, the resurrection of Jesus will make you new and transformed. And according to First Peter 1:3, it will give you a new living hope.
- [18:59]
A
Dr. Johnston, what do you say, though? I'll just give you one pushback to this point. Against. Again, the reason we're we're talking about this. It is Passion Week. And reason number one of seven that Dr. Johnston has in his book Body of Proof is that society is transformed everywhere. Christianity is introduced and embraced. Some will say, yeah, but Christians do a lot of evil. And what about the Crusades and all these things? What's your response, Doctor?
- [19:25]
B
Hebrews 12:2. I don't worship Christianity. I don't worship my pastor. I don't worship my church. Almost left the faith at Liberty University at the age of 18 for a variety of reasons. And my mom reminded me that our faith is Hebrews 12:2. Let us fix our eyes on who? Jesus. Not the church, not Christianity, not a best publishing author. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy before him, endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the glory of God on high. And so that's my response is, when you fix your eyes on Jesus, you're in a good place.
- [20:01]
A
Yeah, excellent point. Christianity is not Christians, ladies and gentlemen. Christianity is Jesus.
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B
That's right.
- [20:07]
A
And when somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame? You don't blame Beethoven. You blame the player. And we obviously are not always good players of Jesus, and that's why we need a savior. By the way, if we're all perfect, we wouldn't need a savior. But even leaving the hypocrisy of all of us aside, even leaving the bad works of all of us aside, you make the case that Christianity has transformed the world for good.
- [20:37]
B
Right, Absolutely. I mean, it's unbelievable, actually. It's so unimpeachable that this message. And keep in mind what the message was. It was that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion and rose again. Frank, if you and I wanted to invent a religion, I'll never forget being at Society of biblical literature in 2012 in Chicago. This is a conference with 5,000 Bible scholars. And I stand up and I present a paper and I say what the gospel writers should have done better if they wanted to invent a religion rather than an actual one. And they got everything wrong. Frank, like you would never have women being your first examples of the eyewitnesses. As Luke says in Greek, autoptas, literally autopsy of the resurrection. You would have never said that your, your leader rose from the grave. I just wrote a co authored with my. My amazing mentor, Craig Evans, a dear friend for macmillan Interdisciplinary Handbook, Philosophy of Religion. This textbook is now assigned at state schools across the country. There's no psychological motivation to invent a resurrection narrative in Judaism because Judaism is a coherent religion. They believed in a general eschatology, eschatological resurrection someday. They didn't need the resurrection unless it actually happened. And that's exactly what we see. We see that Jesus. I met with Rodney Stark before his death, the great sociologist at Baylor. I was honored. He asked me to speak at his isr and I just verified some of my data with Rodney. The church is 2/3 female. 50 years after the resurrection. We can say with honesty, from a sociological perspective, the greatest evangelists of the church in the first century were women. And this is why Paul's writing, hey, here's what happens if you have an unbelieving husband. It was 2/3 women. And that's the power of Jesus. He rehumanizes women and children.
- [22:40]
A
In fact, what Dr. Johnston just mentioned, there is another reason. Of the seven he has in his book Body of Proof, no motivation to invent Jesus's resurrection narrative is evident. Embarrassing testimony, ladies and gentlemen. We've talked about that on this program before, and there's so much more with Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. We're back right after the break.
- [23:07]
B
Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State, and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students Safe and Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating today@crossexamine.org that's cross examine with a D on the end.org.
- [23:50]
A
What is the evidence Jesus actually did rise from the dead? We're talking to the great Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston on I Don't have Enough faith to be an atheist today. My name is Frank Turek. We got a lot more with Dr. Johnston, but I want to mention in some things coming up. Yes, we were at University or Utah Valley University last week and also Ole Miss coming up. We have some other events. We're going to be at Louisiana Christian University in Alexandria, Louisiana on the 7th. That's a couple days after Resurrection Sunday. Then next weekend, talk about a contrast. We're going to be in Manhattan. Yeah, Manhattan, New York, at King's Church. It's down near like 31st and 8th somewhere on there. It's a, it'll be on our website that Sunday morning, the 12th. Then I'll be at Regent University the next night for a Make Heaven Crowded tour. By the way, there's going to be a Make Heaven Crowded tour at Prestonwood. Tell us about that Jeremiah before we go 29.
- [24:45]
B
It's going to be, you know, we have a 7,000 seat sanctuary. Every seat will be taken. It will be overflow. We're so delighted to have Erica and the team here. She actually presented recently in a private event which is so gracious of her to just our upper school students and my daughter Lily. Faith was there, Frank, and had a time of just conversation with her. Erica was so gracious and meaningful. So we're going to pack the house. It's going to be incredible and it will make heaven crowded.
- [25:15]
A
That's April 29th in Dallas. The one I'm talking about is going to be April 13th at Regent University near Virginia Beach. I'll be at that one. Then we've got the Faith Forward Pastor Summit. That's in Grapevine, Texas. DFW again, that's put out by TP USA. That's April 21st to the 23rd. Then me and Rob Schneider's gonna, we're gonna be here in Charlotte, probably at Freedom House Church in Concord. That's going to be confirmed soon. That's on the 27th of April. Then we have the University of Tennessee at Knoxville on the 30th of April. We'll be going to New Mexico, University of New Mexico in May. We'll tell you more about that later. Don't forget, online CIA begins in April if you want to be a part of it. There's only six seats left, so you're going to have to sign up soon for online CIA. Myself, Elisa Childers, Natasha Crane, Bobby Conway will be your live instructors. And then you'll have all the other instructors like Greg Kokol and Richard Howe and Brett Kunkel and Alan Parr and David Wood and others on video. So check all that out on our website, crossexamined.org Let me go back to Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, by the way. We got to use J. Why do we have to use J? So people know this.
- [26:36]
B
We need to get that J hard. Because there's a false prophet out there that tries to predict elections, and that is certainly not me.
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A
Okay? It's not you. It's not you.
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B
You're not.
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A
You haven't been elected by God to do that.
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B
All right, that's exactly right. All right.
- [26:50]
A
We're talking about evidence for the resurrection. We've mentioned a couple. One is to society is transformed. Look, if Jesus never rose from the dead, Let me ask you this. So here's just a. A question that I like to ask people rhetorically. And you can go in any direction you want, Jeremiah, because you have in the book, Body of Proof, several other supposed Jewish messiahs around the time of Jesus that none of us have ever heard of, because they didn't rise from the dead. But Jesus apparently did. How could this itinerant preacher from a remote part of the Roman Empire become the most influential human being in history if he was just like all the other failed Jewish messiahs?
- [27:30]
B
Go in any direction you want. It's a great point, Dr. Turek. We have 10 messianic contenders, or as I say, pretenders, just in the first century alone, men who said, hey, I'm the Messiah, follow me. And they had larger followings. In fact, we hear about two of them in the book of Acts. One had 4,000 out in the wilderness. But as soon as their leader died, their movement came to nothing. And this is what was happening with Jesus, when you think about it, the fact that he was murdered and crucified on April 3rd AD 33. Peter goes back to fishing. Everyone is leaving him. Cleopas and probably his wife in Luke 24:21 are on that 7 mile walk back to Emmaus. And they said, you know, we had hoped he was the Messiah, but he's obviously not. He was killed on a Roman cross. And then something astonishing happens, something none of the disciples anticipated. You know, we read the Bible in hindsight, and it's amazing to us. We read Isaiah 53, the forbidden chapter, but it was not widely held in the first century that the Messiah, when he came, would die on a Roman cross and be resurrected. Look no further than his brother James, who didn't believe in him. That's John 7. 5. And yet, 30 years later, Josephus, not a biblical source. This is one of my seven reasons that Jesus appeared to those who loved him, those who were indifferent to him and those who were outright hostile to him, including his own brother James, who has a resurrection appearance. Frank, I hope we can travel in time someday and we can see that appearance of Jesus to his brother James. I have four sons, including triplets. I break up anarchy every day. The Book of Judges is real in my home. Every boy does what's right in his own eyes. None of them thinks the other one is the Messiah. So we have to ask these questions. I was told in Oxford, you know, ask the critical questions, don't privilege the New Testament characters. What would it take for you to die believing that your brother was the Messiah? And Josephus tells us James dies in AD 62 believing his brother is the resurrected Messiah, the Son of God. Wow, that is powerful testimony for us. And then we realize too, Matthew 16 at Caesarea Philippi, right after Peter makes the great confession. Who do you say I am? You are the Christ, the Son of God. And then Jesus immediately makes his messianic prediction. Remember, he refers to himself 69 times in the Synoptics as Son of man, hearkening back to Daniel 7 of what he would do. We've already talked about how he messianized Hosea 6. 2. On the third day, he will raise us up that we may live before him. And Peter begins, astonishingly, to rebuke Jesus and say, you can't go to the cross. You can't die. And this is when Jesus says, get behind me, Satan. He was always going to the cross. There was no plan B with God from eternity past. Plan A was Jesus would take our sins on the cross. And what a cost it was. We can discuss that if you want. And then he would die. He would be buried, and then according to the Scriptures, he would rise from the dead so that salvation could be possible for all of us, even as disciples. I really think this is why Judas fell out of the boat. He just didn't get it. And that's why the words of institution, the communion ceremony that we celebrate as Christ, so important, do this in remembrance of me.
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A
Let me. I know there's probably some thinking, some people thinking right now, Dr. Johnston, that. Yeah, but all this just assumes that those documents are accurate. How do we know that Jesus called Peter Satan? How do we know that Jesus appeared to all these people? Why should we think this religious book isn't biased?
- [31:35]
B
Dr. Johnston, such a great question. I was just on Sean Ryan show, which takes place in Franklin, Tennessee, and I reminded him that the same evidence we have for the Civil War, the Battle of Franklin was the bloodiest, I think, five or six hours of the Civil War. Five Confederate generals are killed. What do we have? We have early eyewitness testimony. We have musket balls. We have uniforms. We have. Have all of this evidence within an appropriate timetable to believe that the Battle of Franklin, Tennessee actually occurred in the Civil War. We have the same level of testimony for Jesus of Nazareth in these historical documents called the Gospels. I want to make this clear. When I lived in Oxford, I was so stressed out. You can probably relate, Dr. Turek. I was doing my PhD with all these minimalists, and every weekend we just had to get out of town. So my wife and I, and we only had one child at the time, which was amazing. We could drive anywhere. And we went to Glastonbury where the Glastonbury Abbey festival is held. This is where King Arthur is supposed to have lived. And King Arthur supposedly lives in 500 AD. It takes three to 400 years for the legends of the Knights of the Round Table to emerge because everyone is dead who knew of. Who knew of King Arthur. What do we have with Jesus? Something far different. 20 years, 20 years after the resurrection event, we have Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul, writing a letter to the Corinthian Church where he passes down the Kirgamma that Jesus died. He was buried according to scriptures, and he rose again on the third day. And he said, by the way, he appeared to 500 people test this, many of whom are alive today. So within 20 years, we have eyewitness testimony committed in writing to papyrus. That actually is so amazing because then the Book of Romans emanates out of that as well, where Phoebe delivers that letter from Kingreae to Rome. We have incredible testimony, as Dan Wallace said. It's really. And you've probably said this, it's an embarrassment of riches, what we have textually. And I want to make this clear. If we cannot believe based on the evidence, Suetonius, Tacitus, Lucian, I mean, I could bore you with all the evidence that we have. That's why I've written my other book, the Jesus Discoveries. Everything we can know about Jesus outside of the Bible. If you can't believe that Jesus rose again, don't believe that Caesar crossed the Rubicon in 49 BC based on the evidence. That's what I would say to people who doubt that the Gospels are true.
- [34:09]
A
And also mention, if you would, that that section of First Corinthians you just pointed out with the 500 eyewitnesses is an ancient creed that goes back prior to when it was written down.
- [34:21]
B
Well, Jimmy Dunn, who's now dead, was a dear friend of mine and he says it goes back to within six weeks of the resurrection.
- [34:30]
A
And he was not a believer, was he?
- [34:32]
B
Only God knows. He was certainly not conservative, I can tell you that from when he taught for me at Acadia. So I hope he was a believer. But only the Lord knows and he said that the Resurrection Kerguema, this tradition I'm giving and for the benefit of our audience who's listening and watching, when Paul says I'm giving you what was given to me.
- [34:54]
A
First Corinthians 15, 3:8, Ladies and gentlemen, that's what we're talking about right now. Sorry, go ahead.
- [34:59]
B
Christ died for our sins. He was buried and he rose again. That goes back that tradition, that Kirgama, that saying. It goes back to within six weeks according to a non conservative biblical scholar. We hope he's a Christian, but certainly a non conservative. It goes back to within six weeks of the resurrection. That's how early this was in the Church's memory. So don't discount the Gospels. They're amazing historical narratives and they're truthful and we know that the text is actually stable. Frank, you'll love this. A few weeks ago here in Dallas, actually I bought 1 of the 450 Codex Vaticanus facsimiles and I preached from Codex Vaticanus on the pulpit. It goes back to 3:30. It's only a 1700 year old Bible and it shows that the text is stabilized. The English text that many of your listeners and viewers are reading has no difference with what I was reading in the Greek in Matthew 16. In the great confession, ladies and gentlemen,
- [36:01]
A
these were all Jews who wrote all this down. They had no motive. As Dr. Jeremiah Jay Johnston, our guest today, pointed out earlier, these are Jewish people. They didn't think there was going to be a resurrection in the middle of time. They didn't think a guy could claim to be God. That was blasphemy. What motive would they have to invent all this? They got beaten, tortured and killed for saying this was true. So if I'm going to believe any text about what happened to Jesus, I'm going to believe the Jewish writers who wrote this down, who had no motive to invent this, everything to lose, but they said it was true anyway. A lot more with Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston after the break. The book is called Body of Proof and we're going to talk a little bit about the shroud of touring on the other other side of the break and a lot more next week. So don't go anywhere. We're back right after this break. If you're liking what you're hearing on this program and you should, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnson Johnston is a wealth of great data on Christianity and the evidence for Christianity. Jeremiah, before we go any further, we haven't even mentioned your website yet. Tell us your website where people can follow you.
- [37:13]
B
Well, why do we even need another website when we have cross exam you and your ministry? I'm serious, we don't need anything else.
- [37:20]
A
No, no, no, we do go.
- [37:21]
B
I'm happy to just share that our website's ChristianThinkers.com and from there all of our ministry emanates from the last 20 years and I hope it's helpful to Everybody.
- [37:31]
A
Oh, absolutely. Christianthinkers.com and you'll get to his YouTube channel, you'll get to his Instagram, all that, all the social media. Check him out there. You'll see Body of Proof there and the brand new book which we're going to unpack more in the next segment. It's called the Jesus Discoveries. Those are discoveries that aren't necessarily in the Bible.
- [37:52]
B
That's right.
- [37:53]
A
That have to do with Jesus. And we're going to talk a little bit about that a little bit later in this segment. But before we get there, but let's talk about some of the archaeological discoveries you mentioned in Body of Proof. It's one of the seven reasons it's written and archaeological sources overwhelmingly support the gospel's resurrection narrative. Give us a few of these.
- [38:11]
B
Dr. Johnson, even as I write in Body of Proof, even atheist archaeologists rely on the Bible. I will never forget this. I'm at an archaeological dig and to do a dig is a lot of money. You have to recruit volunteers and there's about 100 digs that happen in the land of Israel when there's a non war season about twice a year. And I'm looking and these archaeologists who are mainly Jewish atheists, they are using five sources to make sure that they're digging in the right spot, Frank. And I wonder if your audience has ever heard of these five sources that the archeologists are using. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Josephus. So I thought if the minimalists, most atheist Jewish archaeologists, believe that the burial traditions that are embedded in the Gospels. Remember, we have 89 chapters of the Gospels. Only four deal with the infancy and Christmas. One third deal with the. What we call the juridical procedure of Jesus when he is tried, found guilty, murdered on the cross and rose again. This is what atheists who are archaeologists, who do this for a living, they use these because they exhibit so much. And here's the cool word verisimilitude. The Gospels exhibit verisimilitude. It's a Latin term. It's very similar to the world of Jesus in Judaica. And so if we expected these to be forgeries, if we expected these to be false. And Frank, if you don't mind me mentioning this, my expertise specifically outside of the historical Jesus, is actually all of the Gospels are not included in the canon. And there's a reason for that. Pkyro 10759 the gospel of Peter has a giant cross. It follows Jesus out of the tune. It has polymorphic Christology. Literally, a voice from seven from heaven is heard. Have you preached to those who sleep? And Jesus doesn't answer. The cross is talking. This is why John Dominic Crosson wrote a book on it. And there's a reason. All you have to do is read these narratives to see why the early church wasn't dumb and didn't include him in what was called the canon. What we see in the Gospels, Craig Keener and I were talking about this at the same academic conference, is almost reserved, sober narrative. Like, we're almost a little embarrassed to tell you this, but here's exactly what happened. The tomb was empty. Women saw him alive. Mary said in John 20, I have seen the Lord.
- [40:48]
A
And it wasn't just the fact that the Gospel of Peter was crazy, as you probably pointed out, that it's at least a century too late and it wasn't written by Peter. Who would write those things? Like Peter, Thomas.
- [41:04]
B
Bishop Serapion thought it was cool in Rossus to read it. I mean, this is the same with, like. I'm so tired of people asking me about the Book of Enoch as if we're learning something new about the nephew Nephilim, which nephal in Hebrew means to fall. In the scholarly world, we've known of these fanciful writings for years. I have no Idea why they hit the algorithm on YouTube because they tell us nothing historical about Jesus. But what we have in the Gospels is something far different. It's this reserve narrative and that's where I go back to everything the Gospels report matches up, archaeologically speaking, with Jewish burial traditions in non war time. We can actually trace the time that Jesus is crucified. It's Nissan 14. And we know that could happen on only one of two two Fridays when Pilate is the prefect of Judea. 2636. I'm persuaded without a doubt it was April 3rd, which is Good Friday AD 33, based on the length of John the Baptist ministry and some other cool factors I point out. But isn't it amazing that, you know, Plutarch and Arian are the greatest sources for Alexander the Great and they're writing 400 years later. We have gospel writers within two decades, we have Paul and his epistles within the same lifetime as the first generation of believers telling us what happened and saying, hey, you can test us in this. This is why as believers we need to have more confidence and have a more resurrection centric faith.
- [42:38]
A
Give us just one archaeological discovery about Jesus and then we're going to talk a little bit about the Shroud of Turin.
- [42:45]
B
Yeah, well, let me just.
- [42:48]
A
I know you want to talk about the Shroud, but we're going to save a whole podcast for that. Give me just one that has to do with, say Jesus that helps us
- [42:55]
B
here and we'll go from there. I continue to acquire artifacts because it's phenomenal to have these, but we actually have the heel bone and the crucifixion nail in. If poor Yehohan and John, who was crucified in the twenties under Pontius Pilate, they couldn't get the nail out of the calcaneus. And in Jewish burial traditions you have to bury before sundown. And so they just thought, we're going to bury his body with the actual nail, the iron spike in his heel, and guess what, it's six inches long. It all smacks of authenticity of the exact way in which Jesus is nailed to the cross. Christianity today did a terrible article about a year ago that Jesus was just hung from the cross. He wasn't really nailed. Never mind. That flies in the face of all the evidence. We have 21 different evidential markers of Romans crucifying with nails. And this is where Colossians 2:14 is so powerful. Frank, when I speak, live like you do. I've actually acquired a crucifixion nail from the first century I'm not saying it's the one that was used on Jesus, but I know it's first century and it is from Judea, it's square, shafted. And I hold it up and I quote Colossians 2:14, that Jesus took all of our indebtedness, all of our sin. He nailed it to the cross. So the hope is we don't have to deal with that anymore. Praise the Lord. So if anyone's listening right now and, and you feel shame from sin like we all do, that's been taken care of. Walk in your freedom that you have accept Jesus, trust in him, and then walk in the beauty of forgiveness.
- [44:37]
A
And by the way, that archeological discovery that Dr. Johnston just mentioned, you can see in the Israel Museum right there in Jerusalem, right next to the Caiaphas ossuary and some other artifacts that have to do with Jesus. So there's so many archaeological discoveries. In fact, we had Titus Kennedy on last week, ladies and gentlemen, talking about some of these as well. But Dr. Jeremiah summarizes them in the book Body of Proof. And one of the greatest archaeological discoveries that is really making a comeback now is something called the Shroud of Turin. And you've been real, you've been everywhere talking about this. Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, let me say right off the bat that the common idea among the public, if they know anything about it, is, oh, come on, that's a 13th or 14th century forgery. They carbon dated it. You know, it wasn't back to the first century. It's. Somebody just forged this thing. It's not the real burial cloth. I know we're going to cover this in detail in the next podcast, but give us a little insight, a little tease as to what this is all about.
- [45:49]
B
I was conditioned at Keeble College Faculty of Theology that these were just Catholic relics. And I, you know, I have 13,000 negative comments against me on YouTube, so I have no, my, no problem saying this. I have an allergic reaction to Catholic relics because I'm actually a historian and a critical thinker, and I thought, mistakenly that the Shroud of Turin was in that same category of other relics until I actually went beyond the sound bites to the substance that the Shroud of Turin is the most studied archaeological artifact in the world. I'm willing to stake now my academic reputation on it, because, Frank, I'm not irrational. I believe that the Shroud of Turin are the actual burial clothes of Jesus. A nuclear event occurs that first Sunday morning that leaves residue. That's not paint, it's not dye, it's not pigmented. It actually changes the chemical makeup of a shroud that belonged to Arimathea. And it is the moment of Jesus's resurrection. And we actually have scientific proof of it.
- [46:53]
A
And we're going to unpack that in detail on the Tuesday midweek podcast. If you're listening on the American Family Radio Network, you're not going to hear that on that radio program. It's not going to be any good just hearing it. Anyway, we're going to show you a lot of visuals, so you're going to have to watch it on our YouTube channel, the Cross Examined YouTube channel. But I've seen you present this before, and it is absolutely fascinating. And you go into a lot more detail than I've seen other scholars go into it. Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, ladies and gentlemen. So this is going to be phenomenal. And you're going to answer those objections about it being a midi forgery.
- [47:29]
B
I'm going to shroud pill, everyone. I was the biggest skeptic there was. There's a video with me and Sean McDowell where he's interviewing me about body proof. And I'm like, oh, I don't believe that, Sean. I, I, I live in the world of evidence. And boy, am I walking that back. Now, having been deterrent, having seen the shroud, it is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves us. So you've got to tune in for the next podcast.
- [47:51]
A
Okay, before we do that, with 30 seconds to go, tell people the significance of the resurrection in their own lives.
- [47:58]
B
The resurrection of Jesus allows us to talk about our loved ones who have died in Christ in the presence of tense. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Jesus Christ. That's 2 Corinthians 5, 8. And the beauty of the resurrection is there's this word called hope, elpis in Greek 100 times, used in the Greek New Testament, almost always tied, not with a feeling. You might not be feeling the power of the resurrection, but with the fact of Jesus's resurrection. So this Easter season, you can talk about your loved ones who have died in the present tense. They're more alive than they've ever been, and we'll see him someday. That is the great hope of the resurrection.
- [48:38]
A
Trust in Jesus, ladies and gentlemen. He is the key to the future. To be with your loved ones and with Jesus, everyone's going to be resurrected. The only question is to where Are you going to go to heaven? Are you going to go to hell? That's up to you. A lot more with Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston on the midweek podcast. You don't want to miss that program. On the Shroud of Torrent, I'm Frank Turek. We'll see you then. God bless. He is risen.
- [49:08]
B
Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give today@crossexamined.org.