God's Sovereignty: Mystery or Logical Contradiction? PLUS MORE Q&A

Summary

Podcast Summary

I Don’t Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST

Host: Dr. Frank Turek

Episode: God’s Sovereignty: Mystery or Logical Contradiction? PLUS MORE Q&A

Date: March 3, 2026

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Overview

This episode centers on some of the most frequent and challenging questions about Christianity, especially regarding the problem of evil, God’s sovereignty, and how Christians should approach political and ideological division. Dr. Frank Turek answers listener Q&A, explains how most objections to Christianity fall into four categories, dissects whether God’s reasons for allowing evil are a true mystery or a logical contradiction, and finishes with reflections on the 2026 State of the Union, emphasizing discernment over partisanship. The tone is conversational, accessible, apologetic, and sometimes personal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Top Questions People Ask about Christianity (04:31–14:43)

• Frank’s Four E’s: The Main Objection Categories (04:43)
  • Evil: “If there is a good God, why is there evil?”
  • Ethics: “Why would God consider, say, homosexual behavior wrong?”
  • Evolution: “Doesn’t evolution explain life without God?”
  • Eternity: “What about hell or people who never heard the gospel?”
• Frank notes: "90% of the questions are in one of those four categories." (05:43)
• Bible reliability is sometimes a fifth but often tied to one of the four.
• Ethics is often the biggest stumbling block—people don’t always want Christianity to be true because of moral reasons, not intellectual ones:

  "They're not on a truth quest, they're on a happiness quest." (08:06)

Timestamps:

• [04:31] – Question about categorizing objections and Cross Examined app.
• [07:05] – "The top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality, and morality."
• [09:09] – Reason and wisdom start with 'the fear of the Lord'.

2. How Good Comes from Evil and the Limits of Human Knowledge (15:39–46:34)

Is God’s Sovereignty a Mystery or Contradiction? (Greg’s Question) (14:43–46:34)

• Classical Christian theology doesn’t make evil a contradiction or pure mystery; it recognizes our limited knowledge of God's reasons.
• Not knowing why is not mysterious, it's a fact – "God has reasons we don't know about." (17:19)
• C.S. Lewis’ quote on the God we want vs. the God who is:

  "We want, in fact, not so much a father in heaven as a grandfather in heaven..." (18:13)

• The purpose of life is "training, not comfort" (Kreeft, paraphrased, 18:56), building character, preparing for eternity.

Reasons for Allowing Evil:

• Free will is required: “If God wanted to stop evil, he could just take away our free will, but then we wouldn’t be moral creatures. This wouldn’t be a moral universe, and we would just be robots.” (20:47)
• Redemption over innocence: "Redemption can bring a greater good than a problem-free relationship." (23:07)
  • Using examples like Joseph (Genesis 50:20) and Jesus—supreme evil leads to ultimate good.
  • "He said, 'What you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.'" (29:34)

Why Not Always Know the Reasons for Suffering? (25:45–41:06)

• Human knowledge is limited: "I know very little of the past, very little of the present, and nothing of the future other than what God tells me." (26:28)
• The ripple effect: “Every event ripples forward to affect trillions of other events.” (27:00)
• Sometimes we see good from evil, sometimes not, but that does not mean good isn't happening.
• Personal Story: Frank shares Buff's loss of her husband Chuck and how suffering led her to deeper faith. (32:01–35:43)
  • "If Chuck were given the opportunity to come back and reset everything...I don’t think he’d do it. … Since he’s gone, I’ve become closer to Christ than I’ve ever been." (35:08)
• “Any God big enough to be mad at is big enough to have reasons you don’t know about.” (41:03)

3. Political Division, Discernment, and Christian Responsibility (49:41–63:22)

State of the Union Reflection (49:41–57:57)

• Frank comments on President Trump’s State of the Union moment (50:03), where the statement, “The first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens,” was applauded by Republicans but ignored by Democrats.
• Frank asserts: "To deny that the first duty of a government is to protect their own people is to deny the entire purpose of government." (55:20)
• Emphasizes that support for citizens first doesn’t mean “being against” others.

Call for Discernment—not Blind Loyalty or Outrage

• Cites Armstrong Williams: “There are critics who believe [Trump] can do nothing right. There are supporters who believe he can do no wrong. Both positions are dangerous because they replace discernment with emotion…” (59:03)
• Warns of the genetic fallacy—don’t reject or accept ideas solely based on their source (60:55–61:46).
• Even if one party’s platform seems more biblically aligned, don’t blindly support it or demonize the opposition.
• Encourages: "Sometimes our political or theological opponent may be speaking the truth." (62:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Moral Objections:

• "They're not on a truth quest, they're on a happiness quest." — Frank Turek (08:06)
• "The top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality, and morality. Or I could say, ethics, ethics, and ethics." (07:05)

On the Problem of Evil:

• “Redemption can bring more good sometimes than innocence.” (23:07)
• “Any God big enough to be mad at is big enough to have reasons you don’t know about.” (41:03)

On Politics and Division:

• "Both positions are dangerous because they replace discernment with emotion. The truth requires maturity and courage." — Armstrong Williams (59:03, paraphrased by Frank)

On Adopting Truth Over Tribe:

• “We should be following facts, not emotion. We should not let propaganda poison our perspective.” (60:55)
• “You can learn from people who are on the other side of the aisle. Sometimes they have it right. You can learn from atheists. Sometimes they have it right... Sometimes they make a point... that you have to engage with.” (62:26)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:31–14:43]: The Four E’s—major categories of questions and objections (evil, ethics, evolution, eternity)
• [14:43–46:34]: Is God's sovereignty a logical contradiction, mystery, or something else? Discussion of evil and suffering
• [23:07]: On the greater good of redemption over innocence
• [26:28]: Human limitation in knowledge and the "ripple effect"
• [32:01–35:43]: Personal story: Buff Winter and grief leading to spiritual growth
• [41:03]: "Any God big enough to be mad at is big enough to have reasons you don't know about."
• [49:41–57:57]: State of the Union analysis and commentary on the purpose of government
• [59:03]: Armstrong Williams’ call for discernment
• [62:26–63:19]: Plea for Christians to value truth over political tribe, engage respectfully with opponents

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Conclusion

Frank concludes by urging listeners to examine ideas and arguments by their merit, not their source, whether they’re political or theological. He reminds Christians to pursue truth, recognize human limitation in understanding God's providence, and practice discernment—whether facing skepticism about faith or navigating political divides. Throughout, there's a strong focus on personal responsibility to seek, accept, and live by the truth, tempered by humility and charity.

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For further exploration:

• Cross Examined App (Quick Answers)
• Books: Stealing from God (Frank Turek), How Does God Use Suffering for Our Good? (Clay & Jeanne Jones)

End of Summary

Transcript

[Frank Turek]

Ladies and gentlemen, what are the top questions people have about Christianity and where

[Chuck]

can you go to get answers to them?

[Frank Turek]

And when we say that God has

[Chuck]

reasons for evil that we don't know

[Frank Turek]

about, is that acknowledging a mystery? Is it a contradiction? Or is it something else? And then what was the main event, event at the State of the Union last week that revealed the starkest difference between the political parties and why, as Christians and reasonable pe. Reasonable people, hopefully we're reasonable. Must we not automatically dismiss what people say who are on the other side of the political aisle or even the theological aisle? Like, should you consider what atheists say?

[Chuck]

We're going to get into that in

[Frank Turek]

this program, but before I do, I just want to say we just got back from the Great White north, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We were up there last week doing Michigan Tech and Northern Michigan University. If you look at where Michigan Tech is, it's up in Houghton in the Upper Upper Peninsula of Michigan, almost to the end. It's 205 miles north of Green Bay, Wisconsin. Way up there where they used to have a lot of copper mines, they don't have them anymore. They're not as profitable anymore. So they've been shut down. But the people up there in the Upper Peninsula were just very friendly. And we basically had snow for four straight days. They've had over 300 inches of snow this winter, and it just kept snowing. But it's no problem up there. They keep the roads clear, that the Runway was clear at Marquette, where we flew into. And then we had to drive two hours to the north. So we were there at Michigan Tech in Houghton. And then the next night we were at Northern Michigan. You can see both of those events on our YouTube channel. I think we had about 800 at Michigan Tech and we had a full house at Northern Michigan, which held a little over 400. And the people up there were just great, very friendly. We get to the airport, we walk through security coming out of the airport. It's a very small airport and people are going, welcome to the Upper Peninsula. I guess they don't get a lot

[Chuck]

of visitors up there.

[Frank Turek]

There's not a lot of people. There's plenty of snow, though, and plenty of wildlife. The other interesting thing up there is that we met a couple of couples. One couple had 13 kids, 13 kids Christians. And they lived in about a 2,500 square foot house. Four bedrooms, two bathrooms, 15 people, two bathrooms. In fact, one of the brothers there told me that, yeah, I was in a room with seven of my brothers or Seven of us were in there and the oldest had his own room. Like, how does that work? Another couple had 15 kids. Now, apparently there's a Lutheran denomination up there that believes in a lot of kids. These two couples weren't part of that denomination, but they're basically out populating the

[Chuck]

Muslims on their own.

[Frank Turek]

I guess there's not much to do up there than come to lectures at the university and have kids because you don't want to go outside all that much unless you really love snow. Anyway, the people up there were great. It was great being at Evangel Church. Pastor Levi is the pastor there, and it's an old supermarket.

[Chuck]

They have this church, it's right up there in Houghton.

[Frank Turek]

And as I say, the next day we traveled back down to Marquette and

[Chuck]

we're at Northern Michigan University. So shout out to all the great people up in there.

[Frank Turek]

But let me get to your questions now. And by the way, we'll have some other college events coming up shortly.

[Chuck]

I'll tell you about that a little bit later.

[Frank Turek]

But Bill writes in and he says this. And by the way, if you want to write in a question, write it to.

[Chuck]

Hello@cross examine.org that's the email address.

[Frank Turek]

Hello@cross examine.org I try and get to these questions.

[Chuck]

I'm sorry I can't get to all of them.

[Frank Turek]

But Bill wrote in recently and he said, I'm told there exists a composite of questions that are asked by people in questioning Christianity and that they fall into less than 20 categories. Do you have such a listing by category along with the answers? It seems to me this would be a wonderful tool in learning how to

[Chuck]

witness, and it's worth its weight in gold.

[Frank Turek]

Well, actually, I can boil down most of the questions that one will get, not into 20 categories, but into four. And on our app, the Cross Examined App, which I don't talk enough of

[Chuck]

about, I probably haven't mentioned it in

[Frank Turek]

several months here, but you can get the app, the Cross Examined app, two words in the App Store. And if you go there, you're going to find in the quick answer section that there are four basic categories of questions that we get. They all begin with the letter E. Whenever you try and make a case for Christianity, you're going to get questions in these four basic categories. There may be one outside of these four basic categories every now and then, but generally you can put most, most of them in the four basic categories. You're going to get questions on evil, on ethics, on evolution, and on eternity. Evil, ethics, evolution and eternity. Now, sometimes you get questions about, say, Bible reliability, which would be outside of these four. But sometimes Bible reliability is challenged because

[Chuck]

of evil, ethics, evolution, and eternity.

[Frank Turek]

I'd say 90% of the questions are in one of those four categories. For example, under the evil category, you'll get questions like, if there is a good God, why is there evil? Or why does God allow certain evils? Or why did God choose to kill the Canaanites in the Old Testament? I mean, he said, wipe everybody out. Is that literal, is it not? If it is literal, can God do that? Slavery.

[Chuck]

It did.

[Frank Turek]

Does God condone slavery?

[Chuck]

Because there's.

[Frank Turek]

The word slavery is all over the Bible, depending upon what translation you look at.

[Chuck]

The King James, I think had it right.

[Frank Turek]

It was more servant.

[Chuck]

But that's.

[Frank Turek]

We're not going to go down that road right now. But you're going to get questions like that. Or, what is God under, say, ethics? What does he have against, say, LGBTQ behavior? And why would he be against that? In fact, we just got that question at Michigan Tech. Why. Why would God consider, say, homosexual behavior wrong? You can see that on the YouTube channel in our. Our event there at Michigan Tech.

[Chuck]

You can go to the Q A toward the end, and a gentleman by the name of Matthew asked that question.

[Frank Turek]

So evil and ethics have questions that overlap the categories because, say, slavery or God killing the Canaanites. Canaanites is both a question of evil and ethics.

[Chuck]

Because ev.

[Frank Turek]

Evil is under an ethical category or under the category of ethics. But it seems to me most of the questions I get on a college campus have something to do with evil or ethics. In fact, sometimes when people ask me, you know, what are the. What are the top questions you get? Or what are the biggest objections to Christianity that you get nowadays? And I say the top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality and morality. Or I could say ethics, ethics and ethics. People are dealing with moral issues all the time, and quite frequently they have honest questions about it. But quite frequently, ethics or morality is what is keeping them out of the kingdom. Because when I ask them, if Christianity

[Chuck]

were true, would you become a Christian?

[Frank Turek]

They often hesitate or they say, no.

[Chuck]

They don't want Christianity to be true.

[Frank Turek]

They don't want there to be a

[Chuck]

God, because they want to be God over their own lives.

[Frank Turek]

They're not on a truth quest, they're

[Chuck]

on a happy happiness quest.

[Frank Turek]

And they think, if I become a Christian, I can't do what I want

[Chuck]

to do sexually, or I can't do what I want to do morally, or

[Frank Turek]

I'm going To have to obey certain principles, ethical principles, Moral principles that I

[Chuck]

don't want to obey.

[Frank Turek]

I get it. We're rebels. We want to do our own thing. Half the time, I don't want to

[Chuck]

do what the Bible says.

[Frank Turek]

I get it, okay? But if we're going to be honest with ourselves, we have to follow reason rather than emotion. We have to follow the truth rather than desires to. No, we shouldn't be following our hearts. Our hearts are evil and wicked and corrupt. Our heart will tell us what it wants and tell us we need it now, even though we don't really need it now. We're selfish. It's easy to be bad. It's hard to be good. Yet the culture will tell you you have to be your authentic self. And your authentic self is what your heart tells you. If you follow your authentic self, you're going to wind up divorced, addicted, broken, alone and probably prematurely dead. If you want any kind of contentment, you got to go straight through truth.

[Chuck]

And Jesus is the truth.

[Frank Turek]

Sound reason and good judgment and wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord and the acknowledgement that you can't follow every impulse, you can't follow every desire you have. You have to align yourself with the truth. You have to discipline yourself. You have to crucify the flesh. You have to have to deny yourself and take up your cross. So evil and ethics are big categories. And in the app, the Cross Examined app, you'll see some basic answers to some of those questions we get about evil and ethics. How about evolution? Yeah, you're going to get questions on that.

[Chuck]

You should have a good answer to some of the questions you get about evolution.

[Frank Turek]

In fact, I think in the last podcast we talked about that a little bit. The podcast before last.

[Chuck]

Before the podcast we did with Clay and Jeanne Jones on Evil, we talked

[Frank Turek]

about an acronym I like to use is life. I won't go all through all the

[Chuck]

details here, but one of the problems with macroevolution is these four problems.

[Frank Turek]

There are more than this, but just to make things simple, denoted BY the

[Chuck]

acronym LIFE, L I F E Ltd. Genetic change is the L I stands for irreducible complexity. Or it could be the information found in cell, which cries out for intelligence, not just natural processes.

[Frank Turek]

The F stands for the fossil record.

[Chuck]

It doesn't comport with gradualism. And the E stands for epigenetic information,

[Frank Turek]

the kind of information you find in

[Chuck]

a living thing that can't be modified by DNA. Anyway.

[Frank Turek]

We have a lot of that in

[Chuck]

the book Stealing from God. If you want to get into that more.

[Frank Turek]

But you're going to get questions on evolution. And by the way, when you, even when you do get questions on evolution, you could even say, even if you're

[Chuck]

right about evolution, that wouldn't solve the

[Frank Turek]

problem that atheists have. Because if evolution explains anything, if it explains, say, new life forms, which as

[Chuck]

I say, I don't think it does, I think there's evidence against it.

[Frank Turek]

But even if that were the case, it doesn't explain all the other things

[Chuck]

that you need to explain.

[Frank Turek]

If you're going to put forth a worldview that has the explanatory power and scope, you need to say this is the true worldview. You have to explain the origin of the universe, the fine tuning of the universe.

[Chuck]

Evolution doesn't do any of that.

[Frank Turek]

You have to explain the origin of first life.

[Chuck]

Evolution doesn't do any of that.

[Frank Turek]

You have to explain the origin of,

[Chuck]

or the, the origin of the laws

[Frank Turek]

of logic and the laws of mathematics.

[Chuck]

Evolution doesn't do that.

[Frank Turek]

Or objective moral value, values and obligations. Evolution doesn't do that. They try and say it does, but it can't. No mutating genetic code has the authority to issue a moral command to you and tell you you have to obey it. And it doesn't. It doesn't answer Old Testament prophecy or the evidence for the resurrection or several other things. So even if you grant somebody, oh yeah, macroevolution is true, which it isn't, but even you grant it to them, that doesn't get rid of the need for an intelligence, doesn't get rid of the need for a cause. In fact, the natural laws, they need to be explained too. The natural laws that drive evolution, if evolution is true, still need a cause and they still need a sustainer. So the natural laws that drive it would require someone like God. And the final category after evil ethics, evolution is eternity. You get questions on eternity. What about hell? We just had a question at, we had a question at Michigan Tech about hell or why did God create people he knew would go to hell? Or what about those that have never heard? We just had that question. I think that was at Northern Michigan. What about those that have never heard the gospel? In fact, that was the last question

[Chuck]

we had at Northern Michigan.

[Frank Turek]

These are all questions about eternity. And by the way, morality often is lurking in the background of all these questions. Like for example, what about those that have never heard. That's kind of a moral question or an ethical question. Why? Because it seems to be asking if God is love, why doesn't he get his gospel to everybody, because a loving being would. And it looks like he hasn't gotten it to everybody. So God appears almost immoral because he hasn't gotten his gospel to everybody. That's what the question seems to have lurking under it. So it's not just a question about eternity. It's also a question about morality. And God's morality, same thing is true, is why did God create people he knew would go to hell? Well, that seems to be immoral that God would do that. Now, I'm not going to answer these right now, but you can go to our app and get into that if you want to go further. Or look on our YouTube channel and type some of these words in there. And chances are we already have a video on it from a Q and A on a college campus. So, Bill, if you want quick answers on those issues, get the Cross Examined app, two words in the App Store, and look up those four categories which are in the answer section, the quick answer section of the app, evil, ethics, evolution, and eternity. And also go to our YouTube channel and type in phrases like what about those that have never heard? Or God, did God kill the Canaanites?

[Chuck]

Or what about slavery? And you'll find some videos on it.

[Frank Turek]

Great question, though, Bill. By the way, just in thinking about

[Chuck]

this over the years, those are the

[Frank Turek]

four categories that struck me as the

[Chuck]

most prevalent categories of questions. We get evil, ethics, evolution, and eternity.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, Greg writes in, and he says, I'm writing to submit a theological question,

[Chuck]

and I would greatly value Frank's perspective on it.

[Frank Turek]

In apologetics, the problem of evil is often answered by appealing to mystery once certain explanatory limits are reached. My question is this. How do we distinguish between a legitimate theological mystery and a true logical contradiction when discussing God's omnipotence, foreknowledge, and moral responsibility with skeptics? I am an author who has been working through this question in depth, and I have developed a framework that attempts to resolve the tension that without resting on mystery alone. I would be grateful for Frank's thoughts on this and whether he believes classical Christian theology ultimately resolves the problem of evil or whether it reframes it as an unavoidable mystery.

[Chuck]

And why that distinction matters in apologetics.

[Frank Turek]

Well, I've answered this at length, actually,

[Chuck]

Greg, in a book called Stealing from God. And I'll get into some of what I say in Stealing from God in my answer here.

[Frank Turek]

But to get the more complete answer,

[Chuck]

get the book Stealing from God.

[Frank Turek]

And I want to point out that, yes, I Believe in classical Christian theology in the sense that classical Christian theology

[Chuck]

is the answer to the problem of evil.

[Frank Turek]

In other words, there would be no reason for Jesus to come to earth unless sin entered the world. If we had never sinned. There'd be no reason for Jesus to add humanity to His Deity and come to earth and take our punishment upon His Himself. Because we wouldn't deserve punishment if we had never sinned. But since we have sinned, God came to this earth to take our punishment upon Himself. And then by trusting in him, you're not only forgiven, you're given his righteousness. Because there's only two things you can get from an infinitely just being. Number one, you could get justice. Or number two, you could get grace. If this being is also infinitely loving, and he is, I don't want justice from an infinitely just being. I would be toast, and so would you. And everybody listening to me right now. I want grace. And that's what Christianity offers. Christianity is the only religion that offers grace, and it happens to be true. Everybody else is trying to work their way to God. In Christianity, God works His way to you. He takes your punishment upon himself if you want him to. If you don't want him to, that's fine. God won't force you into heaven against your will. You'll be allowed to go your own way. You'll be allowed to be separated from God.

[Chuck]

And that's ultimately what hell is.

[Frank Turek]

So get the book stealing from God to go further. But let me point out that it is not a contradiction. It's not even completely a mystery. Because when we say that God has reasons we don't know about, it's not a mystery, it's a fact. Because just because we don't know all of those reasons, that does not entail a contradiction or even a complete mystery, but a factual acknowledgment that God's knowledge exceeds our own. And I'll explain this as we go, but I want to pause here for a second and relate something that C.S.

[Chuck]

lewis said about God's character, God's nature.

[Frank Turek]

Lewis identified the kind of God that

[Chuck]

many of us want by saying this quote.

[Frank Turek]

We want, in fact, not so much a father in heaven as a grandfather in heaven, a senile benevolence who, as they say, quote, like to see young people enjoying themselves, unquote, and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said. At the end of the day, a good time was had by all, unquote. So it seems to me, no wonder many people are disappointed With God. They believe in a God who cares only about comfort, not character. A good God knows that comfort is temporary, but character is eternal. In fact, it was Peter Kreft who said this.

[Chuck]

I'm going to paraphrase it.

[Frank Turek]

He said, the purpose of life is not comfort, it's not happiness. The purpose of life is training. He said, this life is an awful resort, but it is a tremendous gymnasium. Yeah, if we think life is all about comfort and happiness, we're going to be severely disappointed. But if we realize that this life is really about training, trust, training for the next life to enhance our capacity to enjoy God, not only now, but in eternity, if we realize that's the purpose of life, to know God through Jesus and then to make him known. And sometimes that takes a lot of pain and difficulty and suffering. If we know that the expectation is, we will be persecuted, as Paul said. And even Jesus said, if they persecuted me, they're going to persecute you. He said, in this world, you will have trouble. But take heart, have overcome the world. If we go into the world knowing the proper perspective rather than the inflated and false perspective, that everything's going to

[Chuck]

go right for us.

[Frank Turek]

Once we become. Once we become Christians, we're going to be happy, we're going to be content, we're going to be comfortable. If we go in it with the right attitude, then when these things come along, we're going to say, oh, I was expecting this, but now let's get

[Chuck]

into it a little bit.

[Frank Turek]

Why do some bad things happen? And we covered a bunch of this with the Joneses in the last podcast,

[Chuck]

but we were covering their book.

[Frank Turek]

I'm going to say some things. I said in Stealing from God.

[Chuck]

Some of those answers will overlap.

[Frank Turek]

But why do bad things happen in general? Why does evil happen in general? Well, number one, we have free will, which allows the possibility of love, freedom, and moral choices, but it also allows

[Chuck]

the possibility for evil.

[Frank Turek]

If God wanted to stop evil, he could just take away our free will, but then we wouldn't be moral, moral creatures. This wouldn't be a moral universe, and we would just be robots. God thought that he wanted a universe of free creatures who could do evil, of course, but that very freedom also gave them the capacity to love. And they knew, or he knew, that if human beings did evil, he could redeem that evil. So why do some bad things happen? We have free will. Secondly, bad things happen because they help build our character. They help us become better. Sometimes you only look up when you're on your back. That's another reason you get converted. A lot of people came to faith through the pain and suffering they experienced when Charlie Kirk was murdered. I, I, I was just at a, a Chick Fil a today.

[Chuck]

That's where you get God's chicken, apparently.

[Frank Turek]

And I was with some of the

[Chuck]

camera crew for a Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk documentary that's being done by TP usa. We had just filmed a segment for that and we're out at Chick Fil A and some people had recognized me and they were coming up to me and saying, hey, my son became a Christian because of Charlie Kirk. He was an atheist. Now he's a Christian and his friends have become Christians too. And I said, and they said, we're

[Frank Turek]

sorry for your loss.

[Chuck]

I say, well, were around the table with about six guys and I said, you can say the same thing to these gentlemen too, because they all worked with Charlie. But I don't know how many people have said to me, there's been a lot of people that have said to me, I became a Christian because of what happened to Charlie. Or I was lapsed and now I'm back. Now I'm following the Lord also. This happens because of discipleship. It's not just becoming believers, but becoming fully devoted followers of Christ.

[Frank Turek]

And sometimes evil happens to bring a greater good. Now, sometimes we don't see that greater good, but it's out there.

[Chuck]

And I'll explain that here in a minute.

[Frank Turek]

Also, I want to point out, I

[Chuck]

can't remember where I was this number of years ago. This young man couldn't figure out why certain evils occurred. Why didn't God just take us straight to heaven? Why allow evil at all? And I went through some of these answers here. But the answer that seemed to unlock a problem he had was the answer I'm about to give now. And that is redemption can bring a greater good than a problem free relationship. Or let me put it another way, redemption can bring more good sometimes than innocence. What do I mean by that? Your relationship with someone will be far deeper if you have a problem with them. And then that person somehow solves the problem. Let's take an extreme example. Let's say a friend of yours saves your life somehow. Let's say you're in a predicament and this person nearly sacrifices his own life to save yours, and you both live after that. Is that relationship and your love for that person going to be deeper than if that problem had never occurred? Of course, redemption, salvation can be better than if no problem ever occurred.

[Frank Turek]

And this is one reason why we

[Chuck]

love Jesus more is because he saved us from punishment. He saved us from hell, he saved us from difficulty. He came to earth and took our punishment upon himself. So redemption can bring about a greater, deeper relationship than if the relationship stays in innocence. Now, this is not a excuse to do evil, of course, but when evil does occur, if a hero comes in and rescues you from that evil, whether it was evil of your own doing or somebody else, then that relationship is much stronger. And so when we go through the difficulty of life here and God redeems us from it, we become deeper in our own maturity. And our relationship with God, with Jesus, is deeper because of the difficulty we've gone through and the fact that Jesus saves us from that difficulty or through that difficulty.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, but what happens when we can't

[Chuck]

see any good coming from something? What then? And this appears to be the focus of Greg's question, is this a mystery, a contradiction, or something else?

[Frank Turek]

Sometimes we can see good coming from

[Chuck]

evil, but sometimes we can't. So what do we say when we can't?

[Frank Turek]

You know, you say, why does a baby die?

[Chuck]

Well, I know in general why babies die, right?

[Frank Turek]

We live in a fallen world, and

[Chuck]

sometimes evil happens, but I don't know

[Frank Turek]

why a specific baby dies. So if someone says, why do babies die? In general?

[Chuck]

We live in a fallen world. These things do happen.

[Frank Turek]

But why did a specific baby die?

[Chuck]

I would say, I don't know. But I know why I don't know.

[Frank Turek]

I'm a finite being constrained by time. I know very little of the past, very little of the present, and nothing

[Chuck]

of the future other than what God tells me.

[Frank Turek]

If I can't see any good coming

[Chuck]

from an evil event, does that mean

[Frank Turek]

there is no good coming from an evil event?

[Chuck]

No, of course not.

[Frank Turek]

Only an infinite God who can see every event at once could know the

[Chuck]

reasons for allowing each evil event to run its course.

[Frank Turek]

Because there's something called the ripple effect out there. We've talked about this before, that every event ripples forward to affect trillions of other events. Maybe a baby dying today ripples forward through a series of events to bring forth a great evangelist 500 years from

[Chuck]

now who saves millions of people.

[Frank Turek]

Can we trace all those ripples? Of course we can't. But can an omnipotent God who can see the end from the beginning all at once see how all those ripples fit together to bring forth the greater good? Of course. Now, that's not a mystery completely. Why? Because we sometimes see good coming from evil. So it's not like we've never seen good coming from evil, we sometimes see it. So when an atheist says, oh, you're appealing to mystery. God works in mysterious ways, that's a cop out. No, no, no, no, it isn't. It's not as if there is a complete lack of evidence for good coming from evil. We see it all the time. For example, in Jesus. Jesus is the greatest example. Here he is and completely innocent man and he's brutalized. But the greatest good to humanity came from that supremely evil event. Salvation is made possible to everyone through the suffering of one man. In fact, Satan thought he was winning by killing Jesus. He didn't know by killing Jesus he was defeating his own project. He was defeating himself. But that suffering that Jesus went through and that death, the truly, or the, the only truly completely innocent man in history is treated horribly. It brings forth the greatest good. And of course, in the Old Testament we have the story of Joseph and his brothers. They sell him into slavery in Egypt, but that act of evil actually later saved his brothers and their family from famine. You remember the story, they, they leave Israel and come to Egypt to escape a famine where Jesus, I mean, where Joseph.

[Chuck]

I might also say Jesus, because Joseph is a type of Jesus as we're covering in our the Bible you never knew series.

[Frank Turek]

In any event, Joseph's put all this grain aside, so when his brothers show up, he can actually save them from the famine. In fact, Joseph toys with them for a while.

[Chuck]

They don't recognize it's Joseph.

[Frank Turek]

But when he finally reveals himself, what does he say to his brothers who

[Chuck]

did that evil and sold him into slavery?

[Frank Turek]

He said, you dirty rats, you're going to pay for what you did to me.

[Chuck]

No, he doesn't say that.

[Frank Turek]

He says, what you, you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.

[Chuck]

The saving of many lives, which is now being done. That's Genesis 50:20.

[Frank Turek]

You did evil to me, but that evil has rippled forward for good. The saving of many lives, including your own. You can see the ripple effect in Genesis chapter 50.

[Chuck]

And we actually have to go back to Genesis 37 to 50, the whole

[Frank Turek]

story, but you can see it play out. So when we say we don't know, we are just recognizing our human limitations and extrapolating from the evidence. We can see to the future. We can't see. We can't see the ultimate outcome outcomes of events because the human story isn't over yet and we have limited information. In fact, there is an afterlife coming too, where perfect justice will ultimately be done. So God Allows us to do evil and allows natural laws to run their course, knowing that although there will be pain along the way, good will come from evil. And by the way, as parents, we do this all the time. We allow our children to make bad choices knowing that although pain will result, it's the only way to accomplish the good of maturity, the good of character, building the good of learning lessons by making bad choices. If we can allow bad choices in our own kids with limited information, can God allow bad choices with us when he has complete information?

[Chuck]

Course he can.

[Frank Turek]

He knows the end from the beginning. You say, but why doesn't God tell us the reasons? Well, first of all, there's no way we could comprehend all the reasons due

[Chuck]

to the ripple effect.

[Frank Turek]

There's no way God could explain, and we comprehend how all of these interacting choices fit together through the ripple effect, because he'd have to explain all the past, all the present, all the future, and. And it wouldn't even be possible for us to comprehend it all. And it might actually change our behavior if we knew those reasons. And that behavior is exactly what will bring forth the good that God wants to bring forth. So no human mind can know or grasp all of it. And even if we could, knowing the reasons for a painful event might alter our behavior and prevent the good outcome

[Chuck]

that would have otherwise occurred. In fact, let me give you an example of this. Well, first of all, the most prevalent example right now is the murder of Charlie. An awful evil event. But there has been good that's come from it. Not just ripples, but a tsunami. As I said, there's so many people that have told me they've become Christians or have become disciples now because of what happened to Charlie. It happens almost every week, if not several times a week, when I see people, and that's undeniable. But let me give you a story you may not know. And this is in our book, Stealing from God. We have a lady who helped start our ministry. Her name is Buff Winter. She is the closest person to Jesus, I think I know. And just everybody loves buff. But in 2011, in fact, her and her husband helped start this ministry, Chuck. In 2011, Chuck had to have some. What was considered preventative surgery on his colon. They thought, oh, this is going to be colon cancer. You might as well take some of this out now. And a fairly difficult surgery. But most people come through it just fine. Anyway, he goes through the surgery. First day he's fine. Next day he dies, totally unexpected. So Buff was left a widow in her 50s with no explanations. To why her husband died. The doctors really never explained it. I guess they were worried about a lawsuit. There's two things you can become after some tragedy like this. You can become better or bitter. Buff chose to be better. I mean, she was a wonderful woman before Chuck died, but she's been pushed to an even higher level of maturity through this tragedy. And let me explain what happened. About a year after this, we had Buff over for dinner, and she said something to my wife over dinner, my wife and me over dinner, that I think exemplifies a unique outcome of pain and suffering. She said this quote, again, this is in the book Stealing From God, if you want to read more about it. She said, if Chuck were given the opportunity to come back and reset everything back to the way things were when he died, I don't think he'd do it. Now, I thought she meant. When she first said that. I thought she meant that Chuck would miss heaven. You know, that kind of thing. But that wasn't it at all. Here's what she said.

[Frank Turek]

He wouldn't come back because he wouldn't want to deprive. To deprive me of.

[Chuck]

Of the growth I've experienced since he died.

[Frank Turek]

I depended on Chuck far too much. Since he's gone, I've become closer to

[Chuck]

Christ than I've ever been. Unquote. I thought, wow. And by the way, that growth has not just had a temporal payoff, but an eternal one as well. Paul says at the end of a section on suffering in 2 Corinthians 4, he says this. He talks about the difficulty. We go here on Earth or we go through here on Earth.

[Frank Turek]

He says, for our light and momentary

[Chuck]

afflictions are achieving for us a greater weight of glory that far outweighs them all.

[Frank Turek]

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, for what is seen is temporary. We fix our eyes on what is

[Chuck]

unseen, for what is unseen is eternal. And essentially, I think what he's saying here is that when you go through difficulty, you enhance your capacity to enjoy God, not only now, but in eternity. Buff became even more of a great ambassador for Jesus through that. And she's enhanced her capacity to enjoy God, not only now, but in eternity, Much like when you go through difficulty and you come out the other side, if you have the right attitude. Better, deeper. Peter K. Put it this way. With regard to Job, he said, the job of chapter 42 is, and I'm paraphrasing, is a deeper man than the Job of Chapter one. And that's true. Going through that difficulty Refines you. It builds your character. It reminds you as to what's most important in life. It's not sex, money and power. Those things are fleeting. What's most important in life is your relationship to eternity, which depends ultimately on your relationship to God. Most important thing to life in life is to know God through Jesus and then to make him known. That's what Jesus says in John 17.

[Frank Turek]

He says, now, this is eternal life.

[Chuck]

What is eternal life? That they, meaning us. He's praying for us.

[Frank Turek]

May know you, God the Father, and

[Chuck]

Jesus Christ, whom you've sent. The purpose of life is to know God in a relational way through Jesus,

[Frank Turek]

who is the second person of the

[Chuck]

eternal trinity and our sacrifice to know him. And then when you add the Great Commission to make him known. That's why we're here. Not to build our own little kingdoms, but his kingdom. Because his kingdom is eternal. Our kingdoms are not. Now, suppose God's goal in allowing Chuck's surgery and death was to cause this in Buff, to depend on him more and to grow. And suppose the doctors came to him and her and said, yeah, your husband needs elective surgery as a precaution.

[Frank Turek]

But suppose.

[Chuck]

Suppose God explained it to her and Chuck.

[Frank Turek]

Suppose God said, well, the initial reason

[Chuck]

Chuck has to go through surgery is so you will grow and grow closer to me. But that won't be enough. I will allow Chuck to die so

[Frank Turek]

I can take him home.

[Chuck]

But I will also, therefore, then deepen my relationship with you, Buff, and make you an even greater ambassador for me.

[Frank Turek]

And there's a million other reasons that

[Chuck]

will ripple forward from Chuck's death that you can't see. Let me ask you, ladies and gentlemen, if that were said to you,

[Frank Turek]

would

[Chuck]

you have gone through the surgery knowing it was just a precaution surgery? No, you'd say, God, you know, I can't choose that.

[Frank Turek]

I don't want to go through that. I. I don't want to get the surgery now. I mean, if God explains all this to us, what are we going to tend to do in our fallen state? We're not going to want to go through it. He doesn't put it under our control completely, because if he did, we would never go through it and therefore never get the benefits.

[Chuck]

So God doesn't explain it. He just says, you're going to need to trust me.

[Frank Turek]

Chuck graduated to heaven, and Buff deepened

[Chuck]

her relationship with God and now communicates, by the way, regularly with our donors who love her. In fact, she's impossible not to love. So you may get a note From Buff. If you're one of our donors, if you knew her, maybe if you knew her before all this happened, you go, wow, she's a great Christian. She's even better now. So it's not a mystery completely, Greg. It's not a contradiction, certainly. It's just a fact that God has reasons we don't know about. And anybody that wants to deny that should consider this. Any God big enough to be mad at is big enough to have reasons you don't know about. Let me say that again. Any God big enough to be mad

[Frank Turek]

at is big enough to have reasons

[Chuck]

you don't know about.

[Frank Turek]

I mean, if you're mad at God because you think, well, he's all powerful and he's all loving and he's all knowing, and he is, so why doesn't he stop evil? If he's that big, and he is, remember, he's all knowing, he can have

[Chuck]

reasons you don't know about. You can't say that it's wrong for him to allow this to happen. No, ladies and gentlemen, it's not wrong for God. First of all, God is a standard of morality. Without it, you wouldn't even know evil. God is the standard of good. And you only know evil as a privation or a degradation of good.

[Frank Turek]

So you wouldn't even know what evil was unless good existed. And you wouldn't even know what good was unless God existed. So evil doesn't disprove God. It may prove there's a devil out there. But to say that you know that there's no good that can come from

[Chuck]

this is just false. You don't know that, especially given the ripple effect.

[Frank Turek]

Especially given how every event in this universe affects other events

[Chuck]

down the road. Also, I want to point out one thing.

[Frank Turek]

You know, we always ask, why doesn't God stop? Why doesn't God stop evil? Why do we never ask, why doesn't God stop pleasure?

[Chuck]

You ever think about that?

[Frank Turek]

I mean, stopping pleasure would be an effective way of stopping evil by maintaining human freedom. Why? Because we don't do evil for evil's sake. We do evil to get good things. We. We lie, steal and kill to get pleasurable good things, such as money, sex and power. If you take away pleasure and the incentive to do evil. Let me put it another way. If you take away pleasure, you take away the incentive to do evil. So evil would vanish, theoretically, anyway. I mean, why do we do evil to get sex, money or power? Sex, money, and power are good things. They're pleasurable things. That's why we do evil. So if God would just take away pleasure, everything would be fixed? Yeah, but if God were to stop evil by ending pleasure, would the human race even continue? And if it did, would anyone like the pleasureless world that remains?

[Chuck]

No, probably not.

[Frank Turek]

The better solution is not to do away with what is good, but to heal what has gone bad and what's gone bad.

[Chuck]

We have the human heart.

[Frank Turek]

Pleasure comes from the goodness of God, but evil comes from the brokenness of man.

[Chuck]

By the way, this section I'm reading here from stealing from God. So you want more of this? That's where it is.

[Frank Turek]

Healing our brokenness is what Jesus came to do. You know, Isaiah foresaw this 700 years

[Chuck]

before Christ when he wrote about Jesus in advance.

[Frank Turek]

He was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him. And by his wounds, we are healed. Now, once God's plans for the growth of mankind are completed, his justice will

[Chuck]

spill over into eternity and will be finalized there. Do you realize if there is no afterlife, there is no God? There is no standard, there is no ultimate judgment that it doesn't really matter

[Frank Turek]

ultimately whether you live here as a missionary or a murderer. Why? Because if there is no God, no afterlife, no judgment, then we're all going to wind up in the same place ultimately anyway. We're just going to cease to exist. So what does it ultimately matter if

[Chuck]

you live as a missionary or a murderer? If there is no God nor afterlife, no judgment, no justice, doesn't ultimately matter. That's the absurdity of atheism. Now, thankfully, there's evidence that God exists and justice will be done and there is an afterlife. And for those who want to continue

[Frank Turek]

to do evil, God will respect their choices and separate himself from them. What other choice does he have? Since even God can't force free creatures to love him, God separates those folks

[Chuck]

from himself and everyone else, so their evil can no longer affect others. In other words, evil is ultimately quarantined in a place called hell.

[Frank Turek]

But for those who have opened their hearts to the free gift that God

[Chuck]

provides, they will experience what they were made for. The complete presence and love of God. As the last book of the Bible, Revelation says, quote, he will wipe every

[Frank Turek]

tear from their eyes.

[Chuck]

There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Unquote. Indeed, ladies and gentlemen, Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil. If you want evil ultimately resolved and your sins forgiven, then trust in Christ. If you don't want it ultimately resolved and you want to continue to do evil and do things your own way, even in eternity, you'll be quarantined in a place called hell. As C.S. lewis famously said, there's only two kinds of people in the world, those who say to God, thy will be done, and those to whom God says, thy will be done. Thanks for your question, Greg. There's much more in the book Stealing from God. And also, don't forget about the books that Clay and Jeanne wrote or this book, how does God use suffering for our Good? We covered that in the last podcast.

[Frank Turek]

But before I go to our last

[Chuck]

topic here today, let me point out where we're going next and maybe you could be a part of it.

[Frank Turek]

We're going to be at the Clear Truth Conference in Mon Clova Township, Ohio. That's about an hour south of Detroit. That's going to be on the 6th of March. That's this Friday.

[Chuck]

And there's several other speakers there. Just go to our website, crossexamine.org, click on Events. You'll see it there. I'm speaking on Friday morning on the 9th.

[Frank Turek]

Then we're going to be at Christopher Newport University in Newport News, Virginia on March 11th. That's a Wednesday. That's going to be our sixth of almost 15 events this semester at colleges. It's going to be at 7pm if you're anywhere near that area, Virginia Beach, Newport News. Love to see you there. It's open to everybody. If you can't make it, it's going to be live streamed, Lord willing, on our YouTube channel and X page and

[Chuck]

probably a couple other places.

[Frank Turek]

Then on Monday the 16th, going to resume our the Bible you never knew series. That's going to be at Freedom House Church in Cornelius, North Carolina, just north of Charlotte.

[Chuck]

We'll be filming that live there.

[Frank Turek]

If you can't make it, 7:30pm live streamed as well. Let's see the following weekend, the 22nd going to be at Element Church. Actually, I think it's on Saturday too.

[Chuck]

The I think there's a Saturday service as well at Element Church.

[Frank Turek]

It's out in Wentzville, Missouri. All the details on our website be speaking at all the services, Lord willing, there the 21st and the 22nd. Then things are going to get really

[Chuck]

interesting, ladies and gentlemen, on the 24th

[Frank Turek]

of March, a Tuesday, we're going to

[Chuck]

be at Colorado Mesa University in Grand Junction, Colorado, 7pm Mountain Time, probably be, I guess 9pm Eastern Time. And then two days later, Utah Valley University, where Charlie Kirk was murdered. We were asked to go there. And I don't know how I'm going to react to being there. But we need to plant a flag on that campus. We're not going to let Satan win. That's going to be open to everybody. That's 26th of March, I think it will be 7pm Mountain time would be 9pm Eastern. And Lord willing, that will also be live streamed.

[Frank Turek]

Bryce Crawford may be joining me there.

[Chuck]

We're trying to work that out. The young Bryce Crawford.

[Frank Turek]

I don't know if he's a great

[Chuck]

young evangelist, but if not, it'll be me.

[Frank Turek]

Either me and, or me and Bryce.

[Chuck]

But check out Utah Valley University and

[Frank Turek]

then the 31st University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, ladies and gentlemen. And that rounds out March. Then we got RIT, Rochester Institute of Technology a couple days later, April 2nd, and much more. Check the website for more. All right, let me go now to our final topic. And that has to be a very

[Chuck]

interesting event that occurred at the State of the Union and this State of the Union. One particular event I think really illustrated the political dividend in our country.

[Frank Turek]

It's when President Trump asked everyone to

[Chuck]

stand who agreed with this statement.

[Frank Turek]

If you agree with this statement, then

[Chuck]

stand up and show your support.

[Frank Turek]

The first duty of the American government

[Chuck]

is to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens.

[Frank Turek]

What happened?

[Chuck]

Let's watch it and then we'll comment.

[President Trump]

One of the great things about the State of the Union is, is how it gives Americans the chance to see clearly what their representatives really believe. So tonight I'm inviting every legislature to join with my administration in reaffirming a fundamental if you agree with this statement, then stand up and show your support. The first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens, not American illegal alien.

[Chuck]

All right, for those of you that

[Frank Turek]

can't see this, what's happening right now is all the Republicans are standing and

[Chuck]

applauding and all the Democrats are sitting on their hands.

[Frank Turek]

For those of you who are listening, listening and can't see this, President Trump is gesturing to the Democrats right now. Why aren't you standing? Why are you sitting on your hands? You're about to hear some heckling from Democratic Congresswomen Omar and Tlaib.

[Chuck]

They're both Muslims.

[President Trump]

Isn't that a shame? You should be ashamed of yourself not standing up. You should be ashamed of yourself. That is why I'm also asking you to end deadly sanctuary cities that protect the criminals and enact serious penalties for public officials who block the removal of criminal Aliens, in many cases, drug lords, murderers. All over our country, they're blocking the removal of these people out of our country. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Chuck]

When you take the oath of office, either for the government as, say, a congressman or congresswoman, or in the military, you take an oath of office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. That's your primary vow or oath. And I was shocked to see that some people, all Democrats, maybe with the exception of a few like maybe John Fetterman, sat as if they did not support the statement. The first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens, not illegal aliens. Notice it doesn't say, you don't have to protect illegal aliens. It says, the first duty of the American government is to protect American citizens. Yes, we don't want illegal aliens killed. We don't want illegal aliens to be hurt. We just want them to be deported. If they came here, by definition, if they're illegal, they need to be deported. Now, we may say that we're going to do that by getting the people who are illegal aliens who are committing more crimes than just being an illegal alien, we may want to get them out of the nation first, the violent criminals. That's what the President has said he wants to do.

[Frank Turek]

But to say or to deny that

[Chuck]

the first duty of a government is

[Frank Turek]

to protect their own people is to deny the entire purpose of government. The first duty of every nation's government is to protect their own citizens. That's their first duty. In fact, that's one reason why God broke people into nations and gave them borders. This should not be controversial among any thinking person. That's why we have different governments. If every government took care of their own people, protected them from evil, whether it's evil inside their country or evil outside their country, every nation would be better. But to suggest that, no, our duty is not to protect. Our first duty is not to protect our own citizens. Why do you have a government then? What is the purpose of government other than to punish wrongdoers and to protect innocent people inside your borders from evil? That's why you have a government. This should not be controversial. And yet you have an entire party sitting on their hands for a quite obvious statement that ought to be agreed to. Now you say, oh, Frank, this is just politics.

[Chuck]

That's what they do. Well, it's very bad politics. And President Trump put these people in an awful corner, and they should have just said, look, he's right. That is our first duty.

[Frank Turek]

Now, if you think our government is mistreating Illegal aliens against the law. That's okay, fine. Let's make sure we don't do that. But he wasn't saying that. He's not saying that all of our ICE enforcement is perfect. What he's saying is this is our first duty. Do you disagree with that? And you had Omar and Talib screaming back at him, you're a murderer.

[Chuck]

This nonsense. The first duty of any government is to protect their own citizens.

[Frank Turek]

That's just self evident.

[Chuck]

And for you to deny that shows

[Frank Turek]

that you've become far too political, far too concerned about politics and your own party than you are about the people you're supposed to be serving, your citizens. As James Madison said, if men were angels, no government would be necessary. We need a government to punish wrongdoers and protect innocent people from evil. As Paul says in Romans 13, when a government will not acknowledge that that's their role, we've got a big problem.

[Chuck]

Now, let me point out one other thing.

[Frank Turek]

This doesn't mean that everything that comes

[Chuck]

from, say, the Democrat side is wrong. And I appreciate what Armstrong Williams said.

[Frank Turek]

Armstrong Williams is a commentator who's been around a long time. In fact, he was one of the first people to interview me for my first book, Legislating morality, back in 1998.

[Chuck]

But Armstrong is still out there, and

[Frank Turek]

he had a post on Facebook, a short post that I want to read. And this will be a corrective to both sides of the aisle. All right, here's what he said. This is from February 22nd. We'll put a link in the show notes. You want to read it for yourself

[Chuck]

and see what he said on Facebook in other posts because he's pretty insightful.

[Frank Turek]

Here's what he said. And this is before the State of the Union.

[Chuck]

Okay, so he hasn't commented in this post. It's before the State of the Union. He has other posts where he comments on that, but here's what he said.

[Frank Turek]

President Trump's recent criticism of Supreme Court

[Chuck]

justices as, quote, lapdogs, dogs, unquote, for

[Frank Turek]

ruling against his tariffs, coupled with escalating rhetoric toward Iran, highlights a deeper tension in our politics. There are critics who believe he can do nothing right. There are supporters who believe he can do no wrong. Both positions are dangerous because they replace discernment with emotion. The truth requires maturity and courage. President Trump has achieved significant results in record time for our country and on the global stage, reshaping trade debates, strengthening key sectors of the economy, and reasserting America's leverage abroad. His supporters rightly applaud those accomplishments, but he also says and done things that are at times cringeworthy.

[Chuck]

Yeah, he does admit that.

[Frank Turek]

And unsettling, especially when it comes to attacking institutions or speaking casually about war. Words from a president are never just words. They shape markets, morale, alliances, and global stability. Leadership demands more than effectiveness. It demands restraint. It demands tone. It demands respect for institutions, even when they frustrate you. It demands sobriety. When discussing war. The danger in this moment is not disagreement. A healthy republic depends on disagreement. The danger is when loyalty replaces principle or when hatred replaces fairness. A healthy republic demands something better than blind loyalty or reflexive outrage. It demands principle over tribe, restraint over impulse, and accountability without hysteria. Affirm what is good, challenge what is reckless. Seek truth, not political expediency. That is how a nation remains strong.

[Chuck]

Armstrong Williams well said, Armstrong.

[Frank Turek]

So this is a reminder to people on both sides of the aisle we should be following facts, not emotion. We should not let propaganda poison our perspective. We covered that, by the way, a couple of podcasts ago. And we shouldn't have blind loyalty thinking the people or party we support are always right or the other side is always wrong. Sometimes our political or theological opponent may be speaking the truth. It's a genetic fallacy to say, well, it automatically comes from Trump, so it must be wrong. Or it automatically comes from the Democrats, so it must be wrong. Or it automatically comes from Trump, so it must be right. Or the Democrats, so it must be whatever. You've got to evaluate each claim based on the truth, not just on where it comes from. That's a genetic fallacy. Now, as I've said before on this program many times, when I look at both party platforms, I do not understand

[Chuck]

how Christians can support the Democrat platform. As John MacArthur famously said, it appears

[Frank Turek]

to be basically the sin list from Romans Chapter one. With that being said, it doesn't mean every Democrat, everything they say is wrong. And with that being said, even though the Republican platform is closer biblically, doesn't mean everything Republicans do is right, doesn't mean everything Trump does is right, doesn't mean any. Everything that is said on that side is right. We have to be honest. We're all fallen. We can all succumb to sex, money and power. And so we have to check ourselves and we have to be fair when

[Chuck]

we evaluate these things.

[Frank Turek]

So let's be Christians. Let's be firm in our conviction as to what is right and true, but not blind to what the other side may say. You can learn from people who are on the other side of the aisle. Sometimes they have it right. You can learn from atheists. Sometimes they have it right. Sometimes I bring up questions that you ought to engage with.

[Chuck]

Well, you ought to engage with any question they bring.

[Frank Turek]

But sometimes they make a point that maybe bring up an objection. You're going to have to deal with it.

[Chuck]

So that's what we need to do

[Frank Turek]

as Christians and as people who are just reasonable. Follow the facts, not emotion. Don't reflect flexibly. Support everything your guy or your party says or oppose everything the other party says.

[Chuck]

Take a look at the facts.

[Frank Turek]

All right, friends, great being with you.

[Chuck]

Lord willing, we'll see you here next time. God bless.