If God, Why Evil? Honoring the Life & Legacy of My Friend Charlie Kirk

Summary

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Podcast Summary: If God, Why Evil? Honoring the Life & Legacy of My Friend Charlie Kirk

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Air Date: September 19, 2025

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Overview

This special episode serves as both a tribute to Charlie Kirk’s legacy and a deep dive into the classic question: “If God exists, why is there evil?” Through personal memories, theological discussion, and Charlie’s last reflections, Dr. Frank Turek explores the Christian response to suffering, the reality of the resurrection, the importance of family, and the logic that evil does not disprove God—but instead points to Him. The episode features poignant moments between Frank and Charlie, as well as impactful contributions from guest Erica, emphasizing Christ, courage, and hope amidst tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Remembering Charlie Kirk: Faith, Legacy, and Final Conversations

• Frank reflects on his last walk with Charlie, discussing their college campus ministry, deep questions, and Charlie’s passion for the resurrection and for strengthening families.

  • “Charlie, being the brilliant young man that he was, had several mentors in his life, and I was privileged to be one of them.” (01:46, Frank)

• The night before Charlie’s death, their conversation focused on two main subjects:

  • The Resurrection of Jesus: The foundation of Christian faith.
  • Family & Society: The beauty and necessity of covenantal marriage and God-centered relationship.

2. The Resurrection and the Evidence for Christianity

• Frank and Charlie argue that the resurrection is not a myth or wishful thinking but the rational cornerstone of Christianity:
  • “There’s only two facts you need to establish to show that Christianity is true. One is that God exists, and number two is that Jesus rose from the dead.” (02:22, Frank)
  • Compelling Points:
    • Early followers (Jewish disciples) had no motive—no sex, money, or power—to lie about the resurrection; they faced only “beatings, torture and death” (04:28, Charlie).
    • The use of women as the first witnesses contradicts fabricated stories of the era (13:10, Erica).

3. Marriage, Manhood, and Society

• Charlie and Erica discuss the spiritual and societal significance of marriage:

  • Marriage is painted as a profound covenant demanding mutual self-sacrifice and is crucial for a healthy society.
  • “It's the death of the bachelor mindset... and it's the birth of a man.” (09:55, Erica)

• Practical spiritual advice:

  • Put God first, honor the Sabbath, resist worldly addictions, and guard your family from toxic influences (11:00–12:32, Erica).

4. Why Believe the Bible?

• Erica succinctly counters skepticism:
  • “There’s never been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted the truth of the Bible. And... if you apply [its truths] to your life, your life does not improve dramatically.” (12:43, Erica)
  • The historical and moral credibility of Christianity centers on the resurrection.

5. Faith, Identity, and Counter-Cultural Courage

• Charlie and Erica emphasize the necessity for courage in public witness, and address the balance between grace and truth using the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 8):
  • “Jesus doesn’t want you to live in sin. He wants us to try to elevate our actions, to glorify God in all that we do.” (17:18, Erica)

6. Charlie’s Death and Wrestling with Evil

• Frank gives a personal, painful account of witnessing Charlie’s assassination, raising the central question: “If [God] is so gracious, why didn’t he stop the bullet? Where was God?” (21:57, Frank)
• Frank and Charlie agree that moments of evil are not just an intellectual problem but “a problem for the heart” (25:37, Frank).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “If Satan, then God.”
  (26:43, Charlie)

  • A powerful reply to an atheist friend who said evil convinced him of Satan’s reality. For Charlie, the existence of an objective evil points to an objective good, thus to God.

• “Does evil disprove God? No. Why? Charlie had it right. If Satan, then God. Because evil is actually an argument for God. Objective evil presupposes objective good and objective good requires God.” (30:42–30:54, Frank)

• CS Lewis’ Logic:

  • “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line... Something can't be not right unless something is right.” (31:16, paraphrasing Lewis)

• On Human Evil:

  • “If God were to stop evil at midnight tonight, would you still be alive at 12:01?” (36:33, Frank)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:22] Evidence for Christianity boils down to: Does God exist, and did Jesus rise from the dead?
• [04:34] "They didn’t get the big three—sex, money, power. Instead, they got persecuted, martyred." (Charlie)
• [09:55–12:32] Erica expounds on marriage, manhood, guarding against spiritual dangers, and the order of Christian family life.
• [12:43] Erica explains the reliability and impact of the Bible.
• [17:18] Erica on the tension between Christ's love and his demand for transformation.
• [21:57] Frank’s emotional account raising the central “where was God?” question.
• [26:43] Charlie’s answer: “If Satan, then God.”
• [30:42–34:00] Frank’s logical argument: Evil points to the existence of God, not against Him.
• [36:33] The challenging personal question: “If God stopped all evil tonight, would we be left standing?”
• [37:27–39:12] Short video: Evil exists because of free will; God desires real love, not robots.
• [39:23] Recap: Evil exists because of free will, and it’s necessary for love and moral choices.

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Conclusion: The Answer to Evil and the Call to Courage

• Evil’s existence is not a rational reason to deny God; rather, it underscores the reality of objective good and our longing for justice—which makes sense only if God exists.
• Suffering may never be fully explained in this life, but Christianity claims God suffers with us and offers ultimate hope through the resurrection.
• The life and legacy of Charlie Kirk is portrayed as a courageous, truth-filled, Christ-centered pursuit—a model for others to follow.
• The episode closes urging listeners to live with purpose, love with courage, and spread the hope of the resurrection, especially in the face of evil and suffering.

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Notable Quotes Recap

• “If Satan, then God.” (26:43, Charlie Kirk)
• “Evil is not a thing. It’s a lack in a good thing. Evil requires good to exist. Evil is a parasite in good.” (32:46, Frank Turek)
• “If evil exists, then God exists... Evil does not disprove God. It may prove there’s a devil out there, but it can’t disprove God. Because there’d be no such thing as evil unless there was good.” (34:25, Frank)
• “If God were to stop evil at midnight tonight, would you still be alive at 12:01?” (36:33, Frank)

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Final Reflection

This episode is both an apologetic resource and a deeply personal tribute. It delivers a logical, heartfelt Christian answer to the problem of evil, honors Charlie Kirk’s legacy, and issues a challenge: to courageously live and share the truth, especially in the face of suffering.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host]

What if everything you thought you knew about God, pain and death, was wrong? What happens when the truth costs you everything, even your life? And what if the evil you see in the world, it is actually proof that God does exist? Resurrection, family, and suffering, three core truths that shape a man's heart and today could reshape yours. In this special episode, we revisit our friend and brother Charlie Kirk's final reflections on why Jesus is the only real hope we have. And we will hear Frank make a case about why the existence of evil does not disprove Christianity, but it actually confirms it. Welcome to the I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist podcast. And what you're about to hear is not just an episode, is a testimony, a legacy, and a question straight from the soul.

[Frank Turek]

Last Monday night, Charlie said, frank, can you come over about 8? Want to go on a walk? Whenever I was in Phoenix, we'd go on walks, long walks with a bodyguard. And we would talk about issues that we both face on a college campus, questions that we get. How can we improve ourselves so we can serve people that have questions? Because everybody has questions and nobody has all the answers. So Charlie, being the brilliant young man that he was, had several mentors in his life, and I was privileged to be one of them. So on that night, this was the fourth time this summer, I was in Phoenix with him to prepare for the college tour. He wanted to talk about two main subjects on our walk. The first was the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Because as he and I talked about many times before, there's only two facts that you need to establish to show that Christianity is true. One is that God exists, and number two is that Jesus rose from the dead. Because if those two facts are true, it's easy to show that Christianity is true and the Bible is true and we ought to orient our lives according to it. So we spent quite a bit of time talking about the evidence for the resurrection, pointing out that, you know, you always hear people say, do you have any non Christian sources to tell us what happened to Jesus? Ladies and gentlemen, I have news for you. They're all non Christian sources. There were no Christians. The people that wrote the New Testament were Jews who had witnessed something they didn't think could happen, that a man could claim to be God and then rise from the dead. Those were two things they didn't have in their belief system. Claiming to be God would be blasphemy. They knew we'd all rise from the dead at the end of time, but they didn't Think one guy would rise from the dead in the middle of time? Why would these Jews suddenly ooverturn their, their 1500-2000 year old religion and say.

[Charlie Kirk]

A man claimed to be God and.

[Frank Turek]

Rose from the dead?

[Charlie Kirk]

If it didn't happen, what did they get for saying Jesus claimed to be.

[Frank Turek]

God and rose from the dead?

[Charlie Kirk]

They got kicked out of the synagogue and then they got beaten, tortured and killed. They got.

[Frank Turek]

Martyred.

[Charlie Kirk]

You think they did this on a whim? You think they just made this up? For what reason? They didn't get the big three. What are the big three? The big three that we all are tempted by. The big three reasons. The big three motivators that cause us to sin or influence us to sin. They didn't get sex. They didn't get money. They didn't get power.

[Frank Turek]

Instead of getting power, they got persecuted, they got martyred. So we talked a lot about the resurrection and then one of the biggest burdens on Charlie's heart is the family. Can I ask you guys a question in here? How many people in here have been scarred by divorce? The family's broken up. People don't even want to get married anymore. People don't want to have kids anymore. People just want to live for them. Instead of theology, it's all me. Ology and Charlie had a burden for that. And we talked for at least a half an hour out of this hour and 15 minute walk on. How can we help people understand the beauty of marriage? How can we help people realize that when you are in a covenant relationship with somebody else and God is at the center, that's what you were made for. That's how society goes on. That's how society is civilized through marriage. And so what I asked our team to do is to put together a short video of Charlie talking about those two issues, the two issues that were on his heart 36 hours before he was murdered. And I'm going to show you that video right now, by the way, here we are, 20 minutes before Charlie was martyred. The because you know, Charlie, they say was a fascist. Ladies and gentlemen. Fascists don't tell people who disagree with them to come to the front of the line.

[Charlie Kirk]

Here, take the microphone. Fascists kill their opponents.

[Frank Turek]

The guy who pulled the trigger was a fascist.

[Charlie Kirk]

So here is.

[Frank Turek]

By the way, I'm not just saying this because he just died, but that 31 year old man you see behind me was the most accomplished and Christlike human being I have ever met and was privileged to know. Here he is.

[Charlie Kirk]

What would you actually want to Tell me If I have 30 seconds, seconds left to live.

[Erica]

Well, you got 30 seconds. In 30 seconds, you're about to meet eternal judgment. And there's only one way that you can get bailed out of that. It's not all the good things you did or the moral scorecard. It's whether or not you have Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. That's the only thing that's going to matter. And so you got 10 seconds left or dying from a gunshot wound. And you ask the question, who is Jesus Christ? And the answer to that singular question, who is Jesus Christ? Is the most important question for everyone in the audience. Not how much money you have, not how much good stuff you do. It is, who is Jesus Christ? You might say, oh, Jesus was, you know, a teller of good tales, or Jesus was a good person, or Jesus was a historical figure. None of that's going to cut it. It's whether or not you repent and you ask Christ to come in as your Lord and savior. That's the only thing that will save you from eternal damnation.

[Charlie Kirk]

He is risen.

[Erica]

He is risen, indeed.

[Charlie Kirk]

Bill, why do we say that in the present tense?

[Erica]

Because it is a constant truth in our life. He is risen.

[Frank Turek]

I always noticed that. That was interesting to me, that it was.

[Erica]

That's a really important question, actually.

[Frank Turek]

It is. Tell me.

[Erica]

Well, because the fact that he has risen transcends time. It's not just in the present sense. It's that of all time, that promise is accessible to all of us. And so it's a proclamation to all people. Because if you said he was risen, it's like it's just merely a historical event. It almost underplays the metaphysics. There's a reason why the dress for the man is the same at a wedding and a funeral. Because you're saying goodbye to your previous self. The woman is the icon, the symbol of beauty, almost always in all white, right ascendant. The man is usually in black and white, like he's attending somebody's death because it is his death. No, but think about it. It's the death of the bachelor mindset. It's the death of promiscuity. It's the death of the wandering eye. It's the death of immoral behavior. It's the death of te girls casually. It's the death of I get to do what I want to do. It's the death of just going to the bar with friends. It's the death of acting like an infant. It's the death of playing video games till 1am and it's the birth of a man. Number one, you're God must always come first from your spiritual disciplines. Honor the sabbaths and turn off your phone for one day a week. Go to a church, a good Bible based church. We have many of the pastors here that teach the word of God verse by verse. And also understand that it's external things of the flesh like alcohol or porn or drugs or other temptations that will take down your marriage. You as the husband must constantly be at guard of things. And also over shopping, overindulgence, too much credit cards, idolatry of vacations. You must guard the family from those things seeping in. So understand the order, it's God. And then the marriage. And those things will bless your marriage from the devil who tries to undermine it. And you serve your holy union. Which one matters more? Great family or great career? Family, Great family. You should want to meet your future husband that will be able to make enough money that you can quit.

[Frank Turek]

Okay.

[Erica]

That would be my advice. My number one thing I'm obsessed about. I want to live in a country where if a woman does not want to go to work having to have a kid, she does not have to go to work. And she could stay at home and raise those kids.

[Podcast Host]

Are you a Christian?

[Erica]

Very, very much so.

[Charlie Kirk]

Like why is that exactly?

[Erica]

Oh, Jesus saved my life. I'm a sinner, gave my life to Christ. Most important decision I ever made.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you believe the Bible is real?

[Erica]

Yes, I believe the Bible is true and real.

[Podcast Host]

Why is that?

[Erica]

Well, I could give you the technical answer. There's never been an archaeological discovery that has contradicted the truth of the Bible. And then of course, the wisdom. There's not a truth of the Bible that if you apply to your life, your life does not improve dramatically. And then finally, we have the most accurate and transparent, historically robust account that one can have of the most important figure ever to live in the history of the world. Jesus of Nazareth and the resurrection is the pinpoint of my belief that Jesus did rise from the grave so that we may live.

[Charlie Kirk]

What makes Christian mythology real?

[Erica]

So that's not mythology, but that is theology. If Genesis 1:1 and the resurrection is true, anything in the Bible is possible. You're looking at the greatest miracle. The greatest miracle is creation. And then the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. I say, how do you know that Jesus rose from the dead? Well, show me another historical piece of a story where so many people willingly died a brutal death for a lie. Every single person around him had everything to lose. And yet they went to the absolute death. From Paul to Peter to the half brother of James, saying that Jesus is Lord Jesus rose from the dead. Not to mention, if you were going to fake a story, you would not use female witnesses. In the ancient world, in the scriptures it said that the feet, the women were the first one to see Jesus Christ. If you're trying to fake a story, you would never do that. Not to mention the 500 people that saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. And then the later church that lived under persecution under the belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

[Charlie Kirk]

I love you.

[Frank Turek]

I love you too.

[Erica]

Gigi. Don't just get to get everything you want. Okay, well, you have to be on very good behavior to get such a thing like this. Okay, hold on, hold on. You have to behave well.

[Frank Turek]

Did you earn it?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I know, but what did you do for it?

[Erica]

Have you been a good girl?

[Frank Turek]

Yes. Okay, I'll get it for you.

[Charlie Kirk]

If everything completely goes away, how do you want to be remembered? If I die, everything just goes away. How would you. If you could be associated with one thing, how would you want to be remembered?

[Erica]

I want to be remembered for courage, for my faith. That would be the most important thing. Most important thing is my faith. Looks like we have a Satanist to begin.

[Frank Turek]

Yes.

[Erica]

In the name of Jesus, I repudiate this unclean spirit. Was that your question? Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Not today, Satan. Not today. At Illinois State University.

[Charlie Kirk]

What is your best. What do you think is the best way to prevent our children from being influenced from those ideals and growing up.

[Frank Turek]

In a with the proper Christian ideals?

[Charlie Kirk]

Even though we keep it in our.

[Frank Turek]

Household, they're still exposed to it outside. Yeah.

[Erica]

First of all, don't send your kids to government school schools. That's number one. Number two, have a very robust church life and attend church regularly. Honor God and all that you do. And also marry a godly man that was willing to defend your kids and to wall off all of the negative poisonous content that might come after your future children. And if you are called to be a stay at home mom, that's a beautiful thing. You don't have to go into the workforce to be a godly woman. In fact, I recommend being a stay at home mom is one of the most underappreciated elements of American life. Thank you. So John 8, if I'm drawing from memory correctly, best embodies both Christ's mercy and love, but also his commitment to truth. And sometimes in the modern gospel, we overemphasize the grace and we under emphasize the truth. And so we are far too willing to say, hey, Jesus loves everybody. But we don't get to the second part of the conversation that says, Jesus doesn't want you to live in sin. So this is in John 8. It's best embodied, right? Almost every Christian in this audience will be able to tell you the first part of this, which is a bunch of Sadducees and Pharisees are sitting around, standing around with rocks, and they're about to stone the prostitute woman. And Jesus comes up and says, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone. And everyone starts dropping the rocks. But what comes next shows that Christ is not just grace focused, he's simultaneously truth focused. He goes up to the woman who had a career in selling herself for sex and said, sin no more. Now imagine today how much trouble you would get in if you would go up to somebody and say, stop sinning. That, oh, you're being too judgmental. No, no, you're actually being Christlike. So Jesus stood. He was 100% grace and truth. And that tension is very hard in a modern world because we want to overemphasize grace when in reality, Christ loves us too much to have us continue to live in sin. He wants us to try to elevate our actions, to glorify God in all that we do. You are commanded to go do something productive with your life, to go give and to produce and to risk and to then go so into other people. That is a biblical idea that has made the world a profoundly better place.

[Frank Turek]

O beautiful four spacious skies forever Waves of grain Four purple mountain majesties above the fruited flame America, America God shed his grace on thee his grace on.

[Narrator/Video Voice]

Crown like good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.

[Erica]

So how did I do?

[Charlie Kirk]

You did excellently.

[Frank Turek]

Charlie and Erica. I love you, Erica. Our entire team is ready to help you continue and expand Charlie's legacy. To make heaven crowded. The Lord will prevail. We're ready. Let's go. Did you see Erica on Friday night? That widow will not be denied. Watch out. In fact, we may have witnessed a week ago the event that will change more lives in America in a long time, hopefully for good. But we have a question. Is this verse true? You, Lord, are compassionate and a gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness. Is that true? If it's true, then why. When we were approaching Utah Valley University, Charlie said, frank, pray. And I prayed, prayed for Effectiveness. And I prayed for safety. And walking in, I said, charlie, I don't like this place. There's too many buildings. If he's so gracious, why didn't he stop the bullet? Where was God? Where was he? We asked him.

[Charlie Kirk]

Protect us. 20 minutes in.

[Frank Turek]

I'm standing 25ft off Charlie's right elbow. Oh, yeah, I'm the guy in the white hat making the signals to the sniper. Yeah, you probably saw that on the Internet. And we know if it's on the Internet, it has to be true.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, I just got a call from an FBI agent two hours ago.

[Frank Turek]

Are you the guy in the white hat? Yeah. A guy that interviewed me in the hospital last week. He said there's a guy in D.C. that he just wants us to check into it. I'm like, are you crazy?

[Charlie Kirk]

First of all, there's a sniper on the roof. Does he need some guy standing 25ft.

[Frank Turek]

From the target to go, yeah, there he is.

[Charlie Kirk]

He's looking through a scope.

[Frank Turek]

We just had to check into it, sir. And then I hear this pop, and I see Charlie go back. And my first thought was, no, no, no, no, no.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because I thought this might happen at some point. And I started to head toward him, and the security team was right there. So then I ducked down, thinking there would be more shots, and they went that way, and I went this way. And I met them at the car.

[Frank Turek]

Charlie was like a son to me. My sons are here right now. They're right over here. They came in support. Raise your hands. Guys, there they are right there. Now, if your son got shot, what would you do? What would you do?

[Charlie Kirk]

You'd get in the car right as.

[Frank Turek]

I got in the car, thinking maybe there's some way I could save him. I can't go into details, but let's just say that Charlie wasn't looking at me. He was looking right past me into eternity. He was killed instantly. There was nothing we could do. Cpr. Tried it mouth to mouth. Tried it. So what I'm about to tell you might not resonate, because evil is not.

[Charlie Kirk]

Just a problem for the head. It's a problem for the heart. And when you're going through pain, the academic answer to the question, where was God? Why did God allow this? Might not resonate with you, but the first step back to wholeness is for you to intellectually understand that when an evil event occurs, God had a reason for it. Even if you never discover this side of eternity, what that reason is. And you know who became a very wise defender of Christianity was Charlie Kirk himself. Because a mutual friend of ours texted.

[Frank Turek]

Charlie and this mutual friend was an atheist. He said, I'm starting to believe more.

[Charlie Kirk]

And more in Satan because I see so much evil in the world. And Charlie texted him back four words.

[Frank Turek]

Here are the four. If Satan then God. If Satan, then God.

[Charlie Kirk]

Why? Well, let's just spend a few minutes on this. Because when you look at a big problem like how can there be a good God when there's all this evil in the world? What you need to do is put the evidence on a two column chart. What is the evidence for God and what is the evidence against God? Now a year ago almost to the day, we were in this room and we were going through some of this evidence. We did a program in here called I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist which is based on a book I co wrote a number of years ago. And it provides the evidence that Christianity is true. Remember I said earlier there's two facts. Does God exist? Did Jesus rise from the dead? What is some of the evidence that God exists? I'm just going to list it here, I don't have time to defend it. But here's some of the evidence that God exists. The beginning of the universe. That's what Charlie was talking about, that if the universe had a beginning, there's got to be a creator. The fine tuning of the universe, the information found in DNA. You know, the longest word we've ever discovered is in your every one of your 40 trillion cells. It's 3.5 billion letters long. Messages come from minds. You're evidence that there's an intelligent creator. Everything about your body tells you that, including your DNA. Life itself is the product of intelligence, our consciousness and free will, our ability to make choices, our ability to even know things outside of our skulls shows us that the world is not just a bunch of molecules bumping into one another. You're not just a molecular machine, you're not just a moist robot. There's a spiritual element to this world and you yourself are proof of it. Intelligence and reason, our ability to reason, the laws of nature themselves. You know, atheists will say, well everything happened by natural causes. Really. If the universe had a beginning, nature can't be the cause because nature is the effect. And where do the laws of nature themselves come from? The laws of nature come from lawgivers that create. A lawgiver, creates laws and then sustains laws. Also objective morality. Does anyone in here want to argue today that the murder of an innocent man was just a Matter of opinion. We're going to set the Q and A mic here in a few minutes. Does anyone want to make that case? I hope not. Because if you're going to say that the murder of an innocent man was just a matter of opinion, you're denying reality. But objective morality shows us that God must exist. Because if God doesn't exist, nothing is ultimately right or wrong. It's just a matter of opinion. It's just your opinion. Whether you murder somebody is wrong or not, Just your opinion. Whether you torture a baby for fun, just your opinion. If you rape somebody and you're saying that's wrong, it's just your opinion. Unless there's a standard beyond ourselves that.

[Frank Turek]

We'Re obligated to obey.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that standard can only exist if God exists. Old Testament prophecy, I think, shows that there is a divine mind behind the Bible and the resurrection and other miracles the New Testament talks about. There's evidence for that. What's the evidence? That God doesn't exist? The biggest argument is evil. But let me ask you a question.

[Frank Turek]

Does evil disprove God? No. Why? Charlie had it right. If Satan, then God.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because evil is actually an argument for God. Objective evil presupposes objective good and objective good requires God. Again, everything's a matter of opinion. You know, you have no rights unless God exists. I couldn't believe a politician the other day from Virginia of all places said that rights don't come from God, they come from government. This is the guy from the same state that Thomas Jefferson started, the University of Virginia. Thomas Jefferson, the man that wrote, we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men were created and endowed by their government. No, he didn't say that. Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. If rights come from government, then a new government can come in and simply take your rights away. Rights are not something government gives you. Rights are something government recognizes and bad governments don't recognize them. So CS Lewis pointed this out brilliantly in his book Mere Christianity. He realized that evil requires good and good requires God. He was an atheist early on in his life. He was in World War I and he saw too much evil in the world. In fact, his best friend was murdered. Not murdered, but, you know, killed in battle. And he said, there can't be a good God. There's too much injustice in the world. And then one day he had an epiphany. And he later wrote in the book Mere Christianity. Here's what he wrote. He said, as an atheist, my argument against God was that the universe Seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? You see, you wouldn't know what a crooked line was unless you knew what a straight line was. You wouldn't know what unjustice was unless you knew what justice was. Something can't be not right unless something is right. And so if you're going to say something's wrong, you have to. You're implying you know something's right. Because you see, evil is not a thing. It's a lack in a good thing. Evil requires good to exist. Evil is a parasite in good. Evil is like cancer. If you take all the cancer out of a good body, you got a better body. What happens if you take all the body out of the cancer? You got nothing. It doesn't exist. Evil is like rust in a car. If you take all the rust out of a car, you got a better car. What happens if you take all the car out of the rust? You got a Pinto. You gotta be old enough for that joke, okay? It doesn't exist up on its own. Or we might say that the shadows prove the sunshine. In order to have shadows, you have to have sunshine. In other words, in order to have evil, you have to have good. Oh, you can have sunshine without shadows. You can have good without evil. But you can't have shadows without sunshine. You can't have evil without good. So if evil exists, and we all know it does, we just saw it on TV or on the Internet one week ago today. If evil exists, then God exists. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if you think about it, I think the argument goes through evil does not disprove God. It may prove there's a devil out there, but it can't disprove God. Because there'd be no such thing as evil unless there was good.

[Frank Turek]

And there'd be no such thing as good unless God existed. So what we witnessed, what I witnessed up close and personal, I knew was evil, which meant God must exist.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you know what we ought to do? Instead of putting evil on this side, we ought to put it over here. Because evil is actually an argument for God, not an argument against God. Now, this doesn't answer all the questions, though. In fact, when I do this full presentation, I go through three points from our book, Stealing from God. Does evil disprove God? We just did that. The next question is, what's the purpose of evil? And I'm just going to introduce that and go to your questions and then what's God's solution to evil? We'll end it that way after some Q and A. But let's deal with the second question. What's the purpose of evil? If evil doesn't disprove God, why does he allow it to continue? I was at Michigan State a number of years ago doing I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. And I knew there was quite a militant atheist in the audience because he sat through the entire two hour presentation looking like this. I mean, he didn't crack a smile.

[Frank Turek]

Once and I had some pretty good jokes in there.

[Charlie Kirk]

Anyway, when the Q and A came up, his hand shot up immediately. And I said, yes, sir. And he said, if there is a good God, why doesn't he stop all the evil in the world?

[Frank Turek]

And I said, sir, that is an excellent question. Maybe because if he did, he might start with you and me because we do evil every day.

[Charlie Kirk]

You ever notice that when you start complaining about evil, you're always complaining about somebody else. You know, God, why don't you stop her? God, why don't you stop him? God, why didn't you stop the shooter?

[Frank Turek]

You know what we never say? We never say, God, why don't you stop me? Let me ask you a question, ladies and gentlemen.

[Charlie Kirk]

If God were to stop evil at midnight tonight, would you still be alive at 12:01?

[Frank Turek]

I wouldn't be. I'm not infinitely just, I'm fallen. I do evil. And if you're honest with yourself, so do you. So I said, sir, actually that is a wonderful question.

[Charlie Kirk]

And if we had a whole semester.

[Frank Turek]

We could talk about it. But we don't have a whole semester.

[Charlie Kirk]

What I want to do is I want to show you a 1 minute and 4 minutes 46 second video.

[Frank Turek]

A video that a friend of mine put together from our seminary, Southern Evangelical Seminary. SES edu. Still a great place to get an education.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm just going to play this video right now. It's very short, 1 minute and 46 seconds. There's a lot going on in the video. You have to pay attention.

[Frank Turek]

You guys ready? All right, here it is.

[Narrator/Video Voice]

Is God good? If he is, why is there suffering and evil? Let's assume for a moment that God is all powerful. This means that God can do anything that is logically possible. So he can create galaxies and subatomic particles and rainforests and you. But God cannot do what is logically impossible. He cannot Make a square circle or a one ended stick. So can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it? No. So what if when God created human beings, he wanted them to be free? Freedom's a good thing. But if humans are to be free, they cannot be forced to obey God because freedom without choice is like a square circle. It's a logical contradiction. No choice, no freedom. God didn't want robots. He wanted real people. The first humans, endowed with the awesome power of free choice, abused their freedom. The tragic consequences of their bad choice and our bad choices ripple across the world. God is responsible for the fact of freedom, but humans are responsible for their acts of freedom. But let's remember, we don't suffer alone. God will put an end to suffering and evil. And God became a man to suffer with us. God is good and he wants real people like you to know Him. But the free choice is yours.

[Frank Turek]

If you want to see that again on YouTube, just type in is God good? And we have a lot of videos on our YouTube channel. Oh, there it is. Sorry. If you go there, you can see there are many, many videos, short videos.

[Charlie Kirk]

The bottom line to this video is evil exists because we have free will.

[Frank Turek]

Which is the only way love and moral choices could exist.

[Charlie Kirk]

If God were to stop all evil.

[Frank Turek]

This would be a morally trivial world. And there are good things that actually can come from evil.

[Charlie Kirk]

Now, I showed that video at Michigan State that night.

[Frank Turek]

How do you think the atheist looked after I showed it? Yeah, he looked like this.

[Charlie Kirk]

He said, well, that doesn't explain all evil. You know, what about natural disasters? Or what about evil that happens that seems to have no good come from it?

[Frank Turek]

Like a baby dying or a brilliant young man gunned down in front of 6,000 college students. Why don't we, why don't we leave it there and go to questions?

[Podcast Host]

Some questions hurt. Some answers change you. Today we saw that you don't need blind faith to believe in Jesus. You just need to face the facts. An empty tomb transformed lives and people who died not for a lie, but for the truth. And we also saw that evil, as heartbreaking as it is, is not a good reason to stop believing in God. It is actually one of the reasons why we need him more than ever. If there is one thing to hold on to, it's this. If evil exists, then so does God. And if Jesus really rose from the dead, then nothing stays the same. If you want to watch the complete presentation along with the Q and A, make sure to click the link in the description of this podcast and please help us by sharing this episode with someone who needs hope and needs to hear the truth. Make sure you subscribe, leave a comment or a review and join the conversation across all of our social media platforms. Share this with with someone who needs hope. Let's make sure this message reaches every heart still searching for a reason to believe. We'll see you the next time, but until then, live with purpose, love with courage, and never be afraid to share the truth and share the gospel.