← I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
MAKE HEAVEN CROWDED and Take a BOLD Stand for Christ with Pastor Jack Hibbs
00:49:15
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- [00:00]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, I want you to know that this program was filmed before my very dear friend Charlie Kirk was murdered just a few feet from me. The reason we're showing you this program is because Charlie would want you to see it. It's about taking a bold stand, which is what Charlie always did, and it is with our mutual friend, Jack Hibbs. I'm gonna have a lot more to say about the great Charlie Kirk and his equally great wife, Erica Kirk here shortly. But in the meantime, please watch this program with Jack Hibbs. I also want to thank you for your so many notes of support over the past few days. Please know the Lord will prevail. As Erica just said, we are going to make heaven crowded. So keep praying and we'll talk again here soon. God bless you, ladies and gentlemen. Is Christianity just fire insurance? You know, you get what we call saved, you get your sins covered by the blood of Jesus, and then you just kind of sit around and wait for your body to break down or for God to take us out. You know, it's just about getting saved. You hear so much of this, particularly at big churches. It's come to Jesus every week. Come to Jesus every week. Is that really all the Christian life is about? No, no, no. A thousand times no. In fact, the Great Commission, the end of the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus says, go, therefore, and make believers. No, he doesn't say that. He says, go, make disciples of all nations. Are you doing that? Do you have a hand in that? Or are you just sitting around to wait for your body to break down or for the Lord to come back? Well, we've got a guest today who is not one of my favorite pastors. He's not only one of my favorite pastors, he's one of my favorite people in the world. It is the great Jack Hibbs, ladies and gentlemen, and he's coming all the way from what still is the great state of California. It's a beautiful place. And Jack, make sure that he is salt and light in that state and in the country. And he's written this fabulous new book called Bold Stand, Resilient, Effective Faith for Christ in a Godless Age. Actually, the whole title is called To Take a Bold, Stand, Resilient and Effective Faith for Godless Age. And what I love about this book, ladies and gentlemen, it's not about fire insurance. It's about being a disciple. So, Jack, it's always great having you on. It's always great seeing you. We just had a Charlie Kirk event a couple of weeks ago, which was a Lot of fun. Tell us, Jack. First of all, give us an update on what's going on with you before we get to the book. What's going on at Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills?
- [02:59]
B
Yeah, first of all, what's going on here is what's always gone on here, Frank, for now 35 years. We just celebrated our 35th anniversary as a church and it's disciple making. You said it in your introduction. We have always been a church that understood the scripture exactly as you read it a moment ago in Matthew 28. And that is to go in all the world and make disciples. And it's our understanding that. What that means, Frank, is that if we make disciples, then they're going to go out and they are going to fulfill the Great Commission. Because be honest, man, if you're a disciple, the Holy Spirit is going to be driving you into all truth. Jesus said that. And so it's quite a simple, it's quite a simple recipe. Give people the Bible and the Holy Spirit will take that, energize the people. That's what he does. And then they'll go out and do the work of an evangelist and thereby reproducing believers, you know, and so it's worked and it's so effective. God knew exactly what he was doing. And so I think, Frank, that really explains why we have watched, we have been participants of God's success using a church where we're yielded to Him. And that's what this book is about. Is there really a place, can we really see again a first century Christianity that rocks the world for righteousness and does it in love? We say yes. We say it's the same word of God.
- [04:33]
A
Well, Jack, what I really appreciated about it, the new book called Call to Make a Bold Stand, is when I read it, it wasn't all about come to Jesus, it's all about becoming a disciple. That's what this book is about. And I appreciate that so much. Because sanctification, that's the theological term we use for becoming more and more like Jesus, isn't talked about a lot in churches. It's more talk. It's especially at the bigger churches like yours, it's more just, well, come to Jesus, come to Jesus. He's going to make your life better. You point out, by the way, that a lot of times your life doesn't get better, that you get persecuted. Why did you think you had to write this at this time right now, Jack?
- [05:16]
B
Yeah. You know what's really great about your question, Frank, is I did not. What I'M about to say I did not plan on this being the result. So it turns out that last year the book Living in the Days of Deception was launched and it did extremely well. And that was a book that was announcing, hey, are you make sure you're not being deceived. You better know the Bible. It was all about deception and watching out. I had no idea that this new book called To Take a Bold Stand would actually be received or understood to be part two or almost like a second phase of what do we do after we realize we're in the Word of God? We're not going to be deceived. What do we do now? You know what? You take a bold stand. And so without any planning whatsoever by myself or the publishers, it's turned out to be step one, step two. And so in these last days, it is absolutely essential that the Christian today really self evaluates and judges their profession against their action. If we are truly followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, there should be some manifestation of us being like Jesus. And if that happens, Frank, and you and I talked about this several years ago, where if we really follow Jesus, we are going to be the most loving people that you know on the planet. At the same time, because we're following Jesus, we're going to be the most hated, but it's going to be for the right reasons. Well, what are the right reasons? Could there be right reasons to be hated? The answer is yes, because if we really love like Jesus, we are going to call sin out. We're going to start in our own lives and then we'll be able to reach out to others in integrity and, and with conviction, saying, listen, that's not a good way to live. What you're doing is harmful to you. And if people accept that or reject that, the results are God's. But we are to stand in the truth. But it all begins with you and I getting our lives right before the Lord. And it's not hard to do. We just have to be willing, Frank, to do that. And it's what we've experienced here. And you know, Frank, when you're out west, this is your church, you come here. And our DNA spiritually is just so beautifully intertwined. These people want to come. They come with their Bibles, they come with notebooks. They were starving to hear what's next. And the great thing is they go and do it. I mean, my goodness. Back in, back in August 19, one of those very things happened, Frank, to where Gavin Newsom yet again came up with some harebrained idea about how to legalize basically, human trafficking out of Sacramento. And we blasted the news out to Everybody and over 6,500 people showed up at a rally at the Capitol steps for righteousness sake. This was not political, it wasn't a stunt. But I simply asked people, if you believe that if your child being taken out of public school without your notice or without your notification is a good thing, then, you know, I don't know who you are, but if you think it's a bad thing, then meet me in Sacramento. Frank, I had no idea that much of the church and a lot of other people showed up and said, we're not going to have this happen. So what was going on there, Frank? People were exercising righteousness. They were doing righteousness. And. And I think if the church becomes that light and that fire again, that we know it to be from the scriptures, I think the church in righteousness can put evil on notice again. And my God's alive. And I know we're doing this in California, folks. If we can stand up against evil in California, you can stand up for evil anywhere. And I think God is looking for us to stand.
- [09:15]
A
And you know, Jack, I remember you saying this many years ago, why would I leave California? This is where I need to stand. I need to go into the fight, not flee from the fight. Right, because you need to minister to people who need to hear Jesus. But this particular potential law had you actually telling people if you got kids in the public school, you either need to get them into a private school, a homeschool, or you physically need to leave California. Yeah, that's how. That's how crazy this proposed bill was, that you could walk into a school, anybody could walk into a school, and basically just take a kid out without any identification, without any permission from a parent.
- [10:05]
B
That's right.
- [10:06]
A
And it's amazing to me that people think this is good legislation. This has to be, in some sense demonic, Jack, when you can't explain it through reason, there's got to be a demonic element in this. And we're going to talk a lot more about this and other issues with my friend, Pastor Jack Hibbs from Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills. This is the book you need to get. It comes out September 16th. I want you to pre order it. Why do I want you to pre order it? Because it's going to drive it to the top of the charts where more people will see it and then more people will be enlightened to take a bold stand. It's important. You're not just Here to get fire insurance, be a disciple. Back in two minutes. Ladies and gentlemen, are you called to take a bold stand? You are. If you're a Christian, you're not just here to wait your bot. Wait for your body to break down or wait for the Lord to return. You're here to occupy till he comes. You're here to be a decision disciple. You're here to be salt and light. You're here to be somebody who is showing people what Jesus is for, what he's all about and how he's come to save the world. It's just the world needs to repent of their sins and accept what Christ has done. And a lot of people resist that. How do you take a bold stand? My friend, the great Jack Hibbs has this brand new book called, called To Make a Bold Stand, Resilient and Effective Faith for a Godless Age. And Jack, just before the break, we were talking a little bit about the fact that you get involved in every area of life because you believe in discipleship. You're a 24 7, 365 Christian who should be involved in every area of life. And you saw unrighteousness in the state of California. You got 6,000 people to show up. Well, not just you, but others as well. And the New York Times said you only had 200 there. So that's why, Jack, every day I read the Bible in the New York Times just to see what both sides are doing.
- [12:07]
B
Exactly.
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A
And were there many other pastors at this meeting, by the way? Did you run into many?
- [12:14]
B
Yeah, I did. Actually. There were pastors who heard the call, heard the challenge, and brought their congregations. I know that there's one church that, I think over 200 people from this one Northern California church came. So. Yeah, but Frank, we didn't know. I mean, we heard about it. We. We kind of have some spies up there in Sacramento. We've got some elected officials as well as just employees that are in the SEC in the Capitol building. We heard about the bill, Frank, that was not supposed to be known, you know, like in Lord of the. Or Harry Potter. There's the vo. There's the name that's not supposed to be mentioned. Well, this was the bill that was not supposed to be made known. Assembly Bill AB495. And so our good friends in the Capitol leaked that news to me and we began. We made sure that we understood it. So we sent it out to about five attorneys. I'm not going to name their names, but these are big names in America and they Said, listen, wow, thank you for telling us about this. This is the worst piece of legislation that we've ever seen, not only come out of California, might be the worst and most dangerous that we've seen in the nation. And so I began to blow the horn. Let's get to Sacramento. People showed up. It was amazing. And so what happened was the all Democrat, Remember, California is 100% super majority Democrat. They looked out their windows, they saw what was going on. They pulled the bill and put it in what's called suspense. And that's a great. Just that effect by the people doing righteousness is a good thing. And this is us standing. And I think the church, if we stand more and more for what is right. I'm not talking about becoming political. I'm not talking about, you know, you having to get all messed up with that kind of a debate in your head, although I have my opinion on that. But when the government decides we're gonna take people's kids now, we're gonna step in and we're gonna do this. Cause parents don't know what they're doing. We're gonna barge in and we're gonna take over. Look, I don't know about you, but isn't it amazing that. Frank, we even had nonbelievers join us because they see how dangerous this is. The church should lead like that. And look, non believers thought, hey, these people, I don't agree with their theology, but we're gonna go stand with them. And so, yeah, and I had no idea, of course, I had no idea that govern that Gavin Newsom would have such a harebrained idea that would help the sales of the book. Thank you, Gavin.
- [15:00]
A
Well, I. I know what you mean when you say, oh, gee, people are afraid about quote unquote getting political because they think it's involved, you know, endorsing candidates who may turn out to do immoral things. And you go, well, well, if I endorse this candidate, you know, like, okay, I endorse President Trump. Oh, look at all the evil that President Trump maybe has done in his past life, or he's insulting people on X or now, Jack, do you agree with all that? No, no, no. We're not talking about that. What we're talking about is, can you be salt and light in a culture wherever you are? And doesn't it make sense, Jack, to stand for righteousness? Because we are commanded to love people, to. To love our neighbor? And if we have the capacity to protect our neighbor from evil, how are we doing good if we don't take that opportunity.
- [15:51]
B
Oh, my goodness. Frank, listen, I'm gonna read some scripture here and I want all of your audience to pay close attention. And I'm gonna remind you guys, I'm not reading 2 Chronicles, I'm reading 2nd Corinthians, chapter 10, verse 4. Now, listen, we all recognize the front end, but we've somehow neglected the latter end. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds. I view that as a military command, Frank. I mean, we don't vote on that. We're supposed to obey it. Next verse five, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. Frank, this is very militant Christian behavior. This is very militant disciplined life for the believer. Here comes the punchline. I don't think we're ready for it, Frank. And being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. We are commanded by the Lord in Second Corinthians 10, verse 6, to punish disobedience. And when we do that, our obedience will honor God. Frank, why is this not happening from coast to coast and border to border in the church in America? You might know that better than I do. I don't understand this limp wristed Kumbaya. Please, let's all be, you know, let's all be just super sweet people and maybe people will get saved. Look, we're supposed to be kind. The fruit of the spirit is supposed to emanate from our lives. But it's not wimpy when evil is beginning or attacking our children, our marriage, our homes, our liberties, our freedoms that are God given. That was our founding fathers understanding that our liberties and freedoms are a gift given by God. Who's going to defend these things? No one's going to defend them but the Christian. That is not only church history, it is certainly the history of America. And why not? Why not go back to those ancient pillars and those ancient markers that we know are proven and tested? We need that in this 21st century. The church needs it like never before.
- [18:17]
A
You know what? I think it might be, Jack, and we've talked about this before. In fact, years ago I did a presentation there at your church about this. I think a lot of people think that love means approval. That if you're gonna love people, you have to approve of what they do. Now, any parent knows that's crazy. I mean, if you approve of everything your 13 year old wants to do, you're not loving you're enabling evil.
- [18:40]
B
Right?
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A
I mean, speak to that, Jack, because First Corinthians 13 says love always protects. It doesn't rejoice in wrongdoing. Why do we miss this, Jack, in the church? Why do we think love means approval?
- [18:52]
B
Yeah. What in the world? You said it some form. We think we're being Christians when we enable people to destroy their lives or some sort of a bizarre codependent dance that we're doing in the name of Jesus. But we violate the word of God when we do that. We've taken the love of God, which is so incredibly powerful, and it is truly the only love that there really is. But it's a love that not only comforts the afflicted, but it dives into the battlefield to rescue those that have been shot and wounded along the way. But there's more than that. It dives into the battlefield to also put an end to the battle. It's rugged. The love of God is rugged. I see it covered in armor, Frank. I see the believer covered in armor, and our armor is dented. It's soiled. Maybe we've got a couple of hinges on our suit that is creaking, but, man, we are the bride of Christ, but we have been deployed into this cultural warfare that lives outside the church. This is what I'm all about, Frank. You know something about this. Personally, in my mind, I see an F35 or an F22 coming up and getting refueled like your son and the US Air Force would refuel so that the fighters could keep going. We pull into church on a Sunday and drop the hose of Bible to add to. To strengthen the grace of God at work in the life of the believer, in this work of sanctification. And then they break off, they pull away. They go back out there on Monday morning and they drop spiritual truth all week long, and then they come back in on Sunday and get refueled. I just see the church and I see the believer that way. And if we're not engaged in battling this dark, dark culture that we have, it's so demonic, where's the church? I do believe. I do believe, Frank, that people will say, well, you know, California is gone. It's never going to recover. Well, if you look at it in natural terms, of course, I agree with you. Oh, America's going down. What happens after Trump? Well, first of all, Trump's not our savior. Jesus is. And the bottom line is this, America, California, I, as an individual, it doesn't have to take three months or three years or 30 years, your life, this state, this nation can change by the power of the Spirit of God. In one weekend, one Sunday, the spirit of God could be consulted, the word of God opened and people touched by the power of God. And Monday would be a Monday that hell would have to sit down and, and figure out how to stop these people. That's the church that you and I want, Frank. You and I labor endlessly to try to achieve that for the glory of God, that people. And look, it's actually the most enjoyable way to live Christianity because Christianity by nature is a non spectator faith.
- [22:02]
A
And what you said before, I want to amplify, Jack. You said that we have to leave the results to God. We just keep working and then we leave the results to God. California may never, the US may be gone in several years. It's not our job to save the country, it's our job to make disciples who then through their lives can reform people in the country and therefore then the country's reform. But you know, countries come and go, nations come and go. We just might get people saved along the way. Even if you never make any political headway.
- [22:39]
B
Wow, Frank cannot, of course, I'm being sarcastic right now. Can't the church walk and chew gum at the same time? Yeah, I say yes, I think she can walk, chew gum, she can juggle and she can walk on a tightrope. She can do anything in Christ. The thing is, people will say, today, I don't know, we're gonna go to a different church. Cause I just didn't feel it. Feel what? What does that feel? What are you talking about, feel it? Technically, if I understand my Bible right, you should feel encouragement, you should feel conviction, you should feel exhortation, you should feel instruction. But if you wanna feel to feel, well then look, some of the biggest churches in America are literally powerless. Literally.
- [23:27]
A
Well, I want to talk about feelings and experience because you spend a lot of time in the book called To Take a Bold Stand. I read a few chapters here this morning, Jack, about that and it's real practical how to stuff. Should we just go by our experiences, Whatever we feel we should do. Jack's gonna give us a corrective on that, straight from the scriptures. So don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. With me, Frank Turk, my guest, the great, great Jack Hibbs, back after the break. Are you ready to Take A Bold Stand? The great new book by my friend Jack Hibbs will help you do. So we're going to get back to Jack in just a second. But I want to point out that there's still time to join let's Get Real. That's the basically I don't have enough faith to be an atheist course for sixth to eighth graders. Fifth to ninth is okay. Go to cross examine.org click on online courses. Shanda Fulbright's teaching it along with myself. If you want to teach your kid the evidence that Christianity is true, you got to put them in. Let's get real. And you can also join me for Digging up the Bible. 22 hours of video teaching on the top archaeological discoveries from Genesis all the way to maps. Yeah. To the Book of Revelation. You know, we were able to uncover. Other archaeologists have uncovered this, but we put it in the course. There's 107 people in the Bible who've been found in the dirt and that's not an exhaustive list. Seven of those people were associated with the crucifixion of Jesus. Be a part of Digging up the bible. Go to crossexamine.org click on online courses. You'll see it there if you sign up for the premium version. Titus Kennedy, an archaeologist. We'll do one of the live zoom sessions. Of course, you can take the self paced course whenever you want. So go to cross examine.org click on online courses. Let me go back to my friend, the great Jack Hibbs. Jack, one of the mysteries that I think a lot of Christians have is how does the Holy Spirit work? You know, we think a lot of Christians think they're getting new revelation from the Holy Spirit. What's your view on this? Because you talk about it on page 49 and around that in the book Bold Stand. Tell us a little bit about how the Holy Spirit works.
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B
Well, first of all, Jesus told the disciples, it is necessary that I go away for your benefit. I must leave. And they were all sad. And he said, don't let sadness fill your heart. If I do not go, the Holy Spirit will not come, but I will send him to you. And I'm paraphrasing right now, but I love what he said. He said, I'm leaving. But I listen. He said, I'm leaving, but I will come to you. That's interesting. I will send the Holy Spirit to you. He will dwell with you and he shall be in you. And Jesus went on to say in John chapter 14:16, that the Spirit of God's business in our lives until Christ comes back is. Is to sanctify us and to bring all things to remembrance and to teach us the Word of God morial in Hebrew, the Lord is our teacher. How does God teach us? The Holy Spirit uses the Bible and in that work he is in a practical sanctification mode. Now Frank, you and I know well that the moment we accept the Lord Jesus Christ, we are sanctified. We have been sanctified positionally. Book of Romans is all about that. But what about in the here and now I'm being sanctified? The book of James is all about that. The practical living out of our life. Now how does that exhibit itself, the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer? We make it so mysterious and it's not supposed to be the Spirit of God will take the word of God and impress it upon your thought life throughout the course of the day. So a lot of Christians today complain that God's not working in their life and or he's not speaking. They're actually admitting, Frank, that they don't have a faithful regimen of reading the Bible. Honestly, if you read the Bible, the Spirit of God will have something to work with you during that the course of the day. He will bring things up to your mind. And even if you read something two years ago, he's going to bring it up. The great thing is, for me personally, I know this kind of sounds anti climactic but God speaks to me the most profound things and the most visionary type things. Frank, when I'm gardening, I love to garden. Don't tell anybody, but I love to plant flowers and grow flowers. I love to maintain my own yard. God speaks to me in the garden. For other people it's other things. But don't make it mysterious. Take in the word of God and he will use that. He will interrupt your life with these thoughts that he impresses upon your heart. Now I often say that don't base your faith upon experience. But I also wanna mitigate that by saying our God is the God of experience. But when we have experience lead the way, now we're in the wrong, we're gonna be led astray because he didn't make us stoic. But the moment, Frank, we begin to say, well, you know, my heart told me to do this or that you're in trouble, right? You're in trouble. But the beautiful thing is God will impress upon you and most often you can recognize that it's him because it's something that you would not have said to yourself. Quite remarkable. And so he leads us, he guides us, and he loves to do that very thing. And so I like to look at it this way. The Bible tells us constantly about the grace of God. It's not the grace of God so we can be lazy. It's the grace of God so that we can prevail. And his grace will keep us standing up. We might stumble, but he picks us up. We might make a mistake on how we thought we heard God on this one, but he'll pick us up. That grace is so needed when we're out, so to speak, on the edge of living our Christianity on the front line. Boy, do we need a lot of grace. And in all of that, he's working in us. The very nature of his son, Jesus. And that is that practical sanctification that is at work in our lives. And I live for that. I get up every day excited about what he's going to do next. And so, you know, I hope the book just causes people to realize, gosh, you mean I can take a bold stand? Yes. This way, by you being yielded to the Lord, the Spirit of God will use you. He'll take the stand and you'll be with him. And it's an absolute joyous. I'd like to look at it like a dance with God. The spirit of God.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah. It's a divine duet. You have to be open to that. You have to follow the prompting. And the prompting is him telling you to do something that he's already told you in the scriptures to do.
- [30:37]
B
Exactly.
- [30:38]
A
You know, like, maybe I should talk to this person about Jesus. Jack, you remember you and I were walking down. This is three or four years ago. We were walking down to the pier there in Huntington.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And people would just walk along, and people would come up and go, pastor.
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B
Jack.
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A
Because this one guy, this was, I think, the recall newsome days. There was this guy with a clipboard there, and. And he goes. He sees you. He doesn't recognize you. He hands you the clipboard.
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B
He goes.
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A
He goes, would you like to sign a recall Newsome? And you go, absolutely, I would. And he goes, pastor Jack, he's out there doing righteousness.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah, he's just. He's.
- [31:25]
A
God's already told you to be salt and light. He's already told you to be out there. And it's fun when God puts those little divine appointments together.
- [31:33]
B
Yeah, I love it. I love it. And here's something that's so important, and people are gonna get upset with me. That's okay. You get upset with me. This is Frank's show. You love him. You can get mad at him.
- [31:43]
A
You're upset with me, too.
- [31:44]
B
Here's the Deal. Here's the deal. People will say, I need a word from the Lord. Okay, listen everybody, that's wrong number one. Why aren't you reading the Bible? Okay, you want a word from the Lord, he's gonna give it to you from the Bible. That's why he gave us the Bible. No, no, I need a new revelation. Are you kidding me? I don't listen, you do not need one, nor do I, because we're still trying to deal with the old revelation that he's given us. You don't need something new to obey when he's given you everything already. Revealed that we struggle to obey. So. Well, you know, when I think about this or whatever, I get goosebumps. Oh yeah, well that's just great. I don't know. You can't build your faith. An experiential feelings based theology will go out the window. And just like Mike Tyson, you know, they interviewed Mike Tyson right before one of his big fights and they asked him, what's your strategy? What's your plan? And Mike Tyson said, well, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face.
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A
That's right.
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B
Right. And his answer was, I'm going with instinct, man. I'm going with how I was trained. And the Christian needs to go with how they were and are being trained by the spirit of God who will use the Bible. And, and if it's not in the Bible, don't do it, no matter how cloaked in light it appears to be. Because Satan can appear and Satan can whisper deception to us. He's quite adept at being able to do that.
- [33:13]
A
You know, Jack, you reminded me of my mentor, Dr. Norman Geister. Years ago, when he was in seminary, he was in a chapel where this missionary got up to speak during the chapel and he said, I've been a missionary for 14 years and I was never called to go. And Geisler's sitting there thinking to himself, good night. I've heard people who are called but didn't go, but I've never heard anyone who wasn't called and went, right. And then he said it again. He said, I've been a missionary for 14 years and I was never called to go. I was just commanded like the rest of you. Oh, I said, bingo, bingo. Why are you asking for new revelation when you're not even obeying the existing revelation? Why is God going to give us a Bible? Why is, is he going to give us a book of Proverbs if he's going to tell us what to do every day? You know, specially Right, Exactly.
- [34:03]
B
Exactly.
- [34:04]
A
So you're out there preaching and you're trying to get people to obey the word of God. Jack, I think you've been going through Romans there at Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills, since Paul was an apostle because you're going detail through it. Where are you in Romans right now? Which is my favorite book in the New Testament because it's just lazy.
- [34:27]
B
This coming Sunday, we'll Finish Romans chapter 14. We started, I think Romans 4. We started the book of Romans. I believe it was in May of 2021, I think, right after Covid.
- [34:42]
A
Because you had so many people coming to church. Because, Jack, I was privileged to be the last person to speak at your church before it got shut down. And then you opened at the end of May in 2020, because you knew the government didn't have the authority to tell you to shut down. And they were stringing this whole thing out. And I remember then I came back in January 2021, and people came up to me at the book table saying we drove three hours to be here.
- [35:07]
B
Oh, yeah, they still do, Frank. They still do. And it's been years. And the bottom line is this. We don't have, you know, we don't have popcorn, candy. We don't have, you know, coffee drinks. They make the drive because they're getting verse by verse, chapter by chapter instruction, and. And what's known as expositional teaching, and they're growing. And I get to enjoy the miracle of that. Yeah, I can't. I can't. How do you explain this perfect example? Last Sunday, first service, not even in my notes. I have skeletal notes, Frank. You know that. I've got. I study hard, but I've got just a skeleton note. So I'm teaching along. And it just so happens in first service, I mentioned about how regarding the difficulties in life and you could be battling cancer or somebody in your life's battling cancer, just know this. God knows, and he'll use it. He may not have caused it, but he'll use it. And I talked a little bit about that. I mean, to me it was like nothing. Little did I know this bulk of a man, I mean, he looked like. He just looked like one of those cage fighters. He came up afterwards and he was crying and. And he said, I drove this morning. I left at 4am to come to church this morning, or 2am to come to church this morning from Phoenix. He said, I was just diagnosed with cancer yesterday. And then on the way here this morning, I found out my dad's got cancer. And God spoke to me this morning from the study. That's God.
- [36:39]
A
Yeah, that's a divine appointment right there. God speaking through the scriptures and through. Through people who are preaching the scriptures, ladies and gentlemen, as long as they're preaching it properly. And Jack Hibbs does. In fact, he talks a lot about false teachers in Bold Stand. We're going to talk about that right after the break, so don't go anywhere. I'm Frank Turek with the great Jack Hibbs, back after the break. Called To Take a Bold Stand, Resilient and Effective Faith for a Godless Age. The brand new book by the national bestselling author, Jack Kibbs, pastor of Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills. Jack's been over there, been there for over 35 years now. There are probably what, Jack, 10,000 people attending every week.
- [37:24]
B
Yeah, 10,000 adults, not including kids. I mean, we love kids, but we. We count the adults, we don't count.
- [37:30]
A
The kids, but yeah, and because you're preaching right through the Bible. And look, Jack, let's be honest, God uses personalities and your personality is so exuberant for God and it comes through in this book, by the way, you're very encouraging, but you're not afraid to put your head in the lion's mouth and deal with issues that come up, whether they're in the church or outside the church. Because, ladies and gentlemen, we're to be Christians 24:7, 365 in every area of life. And Jack Hibbs is teaching people how to do that in a practical way. And Jack, I want to point out, you mentioned just before the break, this young or this older or this big guy who had his father cancer. Both had cancer. You have a similar story in the book about this lady by the name of Peggy. Yeah, tell us about that. She was a New Ager, she got cancer. She calls you up. What happens?
- [38:29]
B
Yeah, she calls me up and I was at the time teaching at a Bible college, and she said, can you swing by my house? This, by the way, this Peggy was in fact my sister. She says, can you swing by the house? And I was shocked to even hear from her because me following Jesus and being the teacher of the Bible and at a Bible college, and she being just a prolific New Ager, I mean, the crystals, the pyramids, the everything, we just didn't talk. I thought that was a strange invitation. And I got to her house and she said, I've been battling cancer and I've got this cancer. I mean, it was horrible. Frank, My sister had just multiple freakish cancers everywhere. And she said, can you tell me about Jesus? And I said, peggy, I've told you about Jesus for the last 10 years. What is it that you're not getting? And she said, I don't think I was ever listening really before, but can you tell me about Jesus? And so I shared the Gospel yet again with my sister. But the difference this time, Frank, was that suffering caused her to pay attention. Suffering caused her to listen. I gave her the same message that I always gave her. But suffering caused her to come to the place of understanding that all these falsehoods could not help her. There's a lot of people that are bound up in their little life, their little world, their little cult or their whatever or money. And let's be honest, Frank, you and I know these people, they have the luxury of playing around with those things because they don't have a crisis going on in their life. The moment a crisis comes into your life, New age trash goes out the window so quick your money becomes powerless. And all the wishful thinking from this course or that course about think happy thoughts dies, and people start searching for the truth. And my sister came to Christ. She lived a brutal seven years of suffering, but, man, did she. I mean, in seven years, she caught up and just died in glory. I mean, her body was just rotting away, and she dies with her hands lifted up and praising God. And I'm telling you, man, at least in my family, my sister, my dad, my mom, all of them would not listen to Little Jack teach the Bible because, you know, it's Little Jack. He's the baby of the family. But, Frank, I got to tell you, man, cancer has been the most powerful evangelist in our home. Cancer has pointed people to Christ because when you get hit, the plan goes out the window and you're exposed. And that's where Christ comes in and gets. Gets people's attention. So it's just a testimony to the power of the gospel and the working of the Holy Spirit. And, you know, wow, we've got such.
- [41:22]
A
An awesome God, and sometimes you only look up when you're on your back. Yeah, and they started to look up at that time. Yeah, our. The tragedy is not dying of cancer. The tragedy is living to a ripe old age, not using your life for the Lord.
- [41:38]
B
Oh, exactly.
- [41:39]
A
That's. You know, obviously we don't wish cancer on anybody, but if cancer wakes people up. And it seems that passage in Romans 8 applies to your sister, Jack, the passage that says, all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose, it goes on to say, to be conformed to the image of his Son. That's sanctification. To be conformed to the image of his son. She became more like Jesus through suffering than she ever would have if she had never suffered.
- [42:08]
B
Oh, that's so good, Frank. It's so good. So Lisa and I were with her, and the Lord again. The Lord spoke to my heart. I didn't hear, you know, voices shaking and. And all this stuff, but this strong impression came upon my heart. And then, of course, you know, when we were talking about this earlier, when such things happen, he judged it against the Bible. And this is what this was impressed upon my heart. The moment my sister died, this thought came into my mind. Jack, your sister just outgrew her body. The inward man, the inward man, is strengthened in Christ, while the outward man just perished. She just spiritually outgrew her body. And she's with me now. And you think about that as a believer. All of our bodies are starting to fail, but the inward man, as we sow to the word of God more and more, the inward man is growing. In that sanctification process, we are getting stronger. There's things of this world that used to have a stronghold on us. They're falling away. And as we begin to get closer to either his coming and. Or our date, the day that the Lord calls us home, I want to believe that I, too, am outgrowing my body. The inside has been born again. My mind's been renewed. The last phase will be resurrection. For this carcass that will be the final act of his sanctification is glorifying this body that has been ravaged by sin and death. I can't wait for that. No wonder why Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. To live as Christ, to die is gain. Frank, how do you stop a man who believes to live as Christ and to die is gain? It's even better. This is the gospel of our great God.
- [43:59]
A
Yes. And you point out somewhere here in the book, I read it this morning, that you're immortal until the day that the Lord takes you home.
- [44:09]
B
Yeah, right.
- [44:10]
A
You're immortal till that day. Use it for what Christ has told you to use it for, and there'll be a bema seat judgment. You point. Point that out in the book as well. And the fact that it's. This is where we get the Olympic. You point out the Olympic podiums.
- [44:27]
B
Yeah, all three are winners. But there's. There's the gold, the silver, and the Bronze, but all three win. That's the Bema seat of Christ for the church, for the believer.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah, this is amazing stuff. I want to. I also want to talk one more about one more thing from the book and friends, you need to get the book and you need to pre order it now. Yeah, okay. This isn't for Jack. This is for the kingdom. Okay. I want you to pre order it now because if it. If it goes up on Amazon, more people will see it, which means more people will get saved and sanctified. That's the most important thing. They'll become disciples again. The book is called, called To Make a Bold, Stand, Resilient, Effective Faith for a godless age. September 16th is the release date, so that's a few days from now. Order it. If you get it on Amazon, order it right now. It'll drive it up the charts so more people will see it. But I want to point out. I want to just talk about one more thing which you talk about in the book as well, Jack. God uses weak people. I mean, people are thinking out there, going, well, Jack, you got a big platform. Frank, you have, you know, a fairly big platform. You know, you can make more impact. We're doing what you do. But, Jack, you point out that people God uses were the common people. Now they're in the Bible, so we know about them. But, you know, you had Moses, you had Jeremiah, you had Mark, you had Abraham. I mean, these people were not prominent. Peter, he's a fisherman.
- [45:49]
B
Yep.
- [45:50]
A
You know.
- [45:51]
B
Yep.
- [45:51]
A
Can God use people where they are, in their circle of influence? And if so, how do they go about doing God's will?
- [45:58]
B
Jack, listen, God in his sovereignty can use anybody, including Balaam's donkey. Right? I mean, think about it.
- [46:04]
A
You have that in there, too. That's right.
- [46:05]
B
Yeah, that's right. He can use anything or anybody. So if you really believe that, then all of us can get excited and kind of step forward to the line. I love what you just brought up. That was my reading this morning. Moses. God calls Moses and Moses begins to instruct God. God, you don't know how bad of a speaker I am. I don't speak publicly, I stammer, I'm slow of speech. And he gives God all the reasons. God says, don't worry about it. I'm going to take care of it. Moses keeps whining on until it says, the anger of the Lord was risen, rose up and said, all right, all right, I'll get Aaron. He can talk. The thing is this. Who are we to dictate to God what He has us to do or not do. Frank, I'm a firm believer in this. I might be off, but this is my understanding of Scripture. I am not going to be judged at the Bema seat of Christ as to how close did I come to Billy Graham or to Chuck Smith or Charles Stanley. I'm not going to be judged according to their criteria. Charles Stanley, Chuck Smith, Billy Graham are going to be judged based upon what God uniquely called them to do. As he called Frank Turek, as He called myself. Bottom line is this. God is going to ask us, he's going to evaluate us, were we faithful to what opportunities he gave us. In other words, friend, every time there is a possibility, an opportunity, that this is a moment that God wants you to act, stop playing it safe, act on it. And gosh, guess what? If we make a mistake, wouldn't you rather get an A for thinking that was God speaking than hearing God speak or not knowing? Not for sure. Like you said it earlier, Frank, if God tells you to tell somebody about his son, Jesus, that's not Satan telling you to do that.
- [47:56]
A
That's right.
- [47:56]
B
Stop playing it safe because let's be honest, that's cowardice. We're trying to protect ourselves. Let's be a little bit reckless with truth and do it and see what happens. I think you're going to be wonderfully surprised that God has chosen to use fools. And in that case, I want to be to the front of the line of all fools.
- [48:17]
A
You can be a fool for Christ.
- [48:19]
B
Amen.
- [48:19]
A
By getting this book, ladies and gentlemen. It's going to help you. It's called Called To Take a Bold Stand by Jack Hibbs. Jack, it's always a pleasure having you on. Keep doing what you're doing, Brother Frank.
- [48:30]
B
We'll do it together. Brother. I love you so much.
- [48:32]
A
I love you as well. Give my best to Lisa and your kids and grandkids. You got to pray for the Hibs family, ladies and gentlemen. They're on the front lines, so pray for them. Pray that this new book goes big. It's going to drive people to the Bible, which is the whole point, ladies and gentlemen. Also want to mention, next week on the 17th, I'll be at Western Carolina University. And then the week after that, McNee State University in Louisiana. And Little Cypress Maurice High School. And then Lamar University, Beaumont, Texas. Everything is on our website, cross examine dot org. Check it there, there. And don't forget to get the great Jack Hibbs book, Bold Stand. See you here next time. God bless.