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I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
NEW EVIDENCE REVEALED: What No One Ever Told You About the Shroud of Turin with Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston
01:15:04
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign of the most fantastic discoveries in history possibly is the Shroud of Turin. What is a Shroud? And do we really have the burial cloth of Jesus in the Shroud of Torrent? Or is this a 14th century forgery, as some have said? Well, my friend, Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston has become an expert on this artifact. It's not a relic. We're going to explain the difference here in a minute. It's an artifact. We're gonna dive into it and we both think you may become convinced that this literally was or is the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth from 1990, three years ago this past Sunday. Here he is all the way again from Dallas, ladies and gentlemen, the great Jeremiah J. Johnston. Not the faul prophet. He's the true prophet. All right, enough. Enough with the crowd. I gotta ask you this, Dr. Johnson. We just had you on the show last week just leading up to Resurrection Sunday. A few years ago, you thought the Shroud was a joke. Now suddenly you're a big advocate for it being the true burial cloth of Jesus. What changed? How'd you get into this to begin with?
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B
Well, first, I'm just honored to be on your program. I rely on you, Dr. Turek, and cross examine love your ministry. Thank you so much. Thank you for standing for truth and the ways in which you do. You're one of one. You're a unicorn, and God has raised you up. And I'm just honored to have this conversation with you.
- [01:39]
A
All right, you can pick up your check after.
- [01:42]
B
I speak for everybody saying that my passion is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I'm phenomenally interested in it. I have an addiction for truth wherever it leads. And when I was doing the press junket for my book Body of Proof, which came out a few years ago, people kept asking me in the media about the Shroud of Turin. And honestly, I was agnostic on it. And 99% of Bible scholars are there. They've never bothered to study what the Shroud of Turin is. I put it in that, you know, I lead Reformation tours. I put it in that category of Catholic relics, which there's on over 20,000. And. And I just thought, this is a joke. I'm not going to study this. And then my pastor, Jack Graham, said, hey, you ought to really actually look into that before commenting on it, because we can all, when we reach a certain level of influence, we can be careful because, you know, we shouldn't comment on things we're not really learning in because that's when we get in trouble. And, Frank, it was a Friday morning men's Bible study on Good Friday here at Prestonwood a few years ago, where after a series of conversations with a gentleman named Barry Schwartz, who gave literally the TED Talk on the Shroud of Turin, that I presented what I was learning. And to be really transparent with you and your audience, my son Justin, who's my best friend, was in that 6:30am Bible study. And to get an 11 year old to talk about anything but sports or gaming was an absolute miracle. And he was so locked in spiritually Frank, to what Jesus had done for him on the cross. It all clicked and I thought, wow, there's something here. And so I began to study it. I've traveled, traveled the world. I've interviewed all of the scientists I will discuss with you on this podcast. So stay till the very end. And here's the point, because I'm not irrational, I follow the evidence and believe that Jesus literally wore this Shroud of Turin as his grave clothes.
- [03:42]
A
That's a very dramatic statement because I'm not irrational. I believe the Shroud of Turin is authentic. Well, that's a high bar. But let's talk about it before we get into it. Can you explain the difference between a relic like a piece of the cross or a thorn from the crown of thorns and an artifact which is the Shroud of Turin?
- [04:01]
B
Yeah, we really only have two artifacts that now are custodial of the Catholic Church. And I just want to help people with this because I'm as Protestant as you can get. I thought that the Shroud was a Catholic relic. It turns out that the Shroud was not given to. It was bequeathed technically from the Savoy family to the Catholic Church in 1983. So it wasn't even part of the Catholic Church. And it wasn't bequeathed to the Church, Frank. It was actually bequeathed to the living Pope. And so that's very important to distinguish. And so it is not a relic, it is an artifact. Because the Shroud has been studied scientifically more than any other archeological discovery of all time. When I speak on this, I actually have. It takes two slides to show the 102 academic disciplines that have spent 600,000 scientific research hours of men and women who have staked their academic reputations. These are not pastors or apologists who have a dog in the hunt who want it to be true. The evidence compels them to believe that the Shroud is authentic based on their particular areas of specialties and research. And so what's phenomenal about that is I've actually talked to these Physicists and mathematicians, and they have have actually staked it, saying, we cannot explain how there's an image in the Shroud. So I want to help our audience. We actually have an image that we can pull up of what the Shroud is. A lot of people hear this word, shroud, and they're like, what in the world is a Shroud? All four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tell us that this very important evidential detail, that in fact there was a shroud that that was left in the empty tomb of Jesus. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So it was that important. You know, we only have 89 chapters in the Gospels. There's an economy of words. One third of the Gospels deal with what happened that first Easter weekend. And this evidential layer that it wasn't until John saw to use this term, it's used 11 times in John chapter 20 alone. It's used 226 times in the New Testament. He saw the linen cloth, the shroud, lying there. He saw John 28 and believed. And that's what I hope people will have. I hope that's the payoff of today's podcast, is that you'll see even more and you'll believe in it even more.
- [06:28]
A
So unlike someone who says, I have a piece of the cross, or I have the nail that nailed Jesus to the cross, or I have a thorn from the crown of thorns, there's really no way to verify that, but that that would be a relic. This has so much scientific scrutiny that we might be able to say with a very high level of confidence that it literally is the burial cloth of
- [06:54]
B
Jesus, because we're not irrational. I mean, I know more about the Shroud than I do on airplanes. I fly in and I stake my life on them. The evidence is overpowering, and I'm not the only one. I'm delighted that several other Bible scholars and archeologists now see the evidence for what it is. And so I would just love to guide your audience by the hand. Frank, if I may. And I don't know where you stand on the Shroud, but my job is to convince you on this broadcast as well.
- [07:22]
A
My friend Gary Habermas, our mutual friend who wrote the forward to your last book.
- [07:26]
B
Yes.
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A
And you helped edit his fourth volume of his magnum opus. I remember Gary talking about this years ago, and he still talks about it on occasion. Do you know the book? In his life, his own book that sold the most was a book he wrote in 1980 called the Shroud, and he co authored it with another author that Book still is his top seller.
- [07:49]
B
Yes, the verdict on the Shroud. I have it. It's phenomenal. It's still relevant based on the science, but we actually have new science that's come out. We have breaking news for your podcast audience because the Shroud has been dated in five different ways beyond the CR14 dating. And so I'm going to shroud pill you on this, Frank. I'm going to convince you and your whole audience.
- [08:07]
A
Gary said he's 80% convinced. That's the last time I talked to. He's probably more convinced now.
- [08:13]
B
I think he is.
- [08:14]
A
Let's put the image up on the screen now of the Shroud on the top, which is a tan color, and then you seem to have a negative below it. Explain the difference there.
- [08:23]
B
So here's the cool thing, and I believe that there is a controlled revelation of Jesus Christ tied to technology that's happening right now, tied to the closeness of the second coming of Jesus. God knew photography would be invented in the 1840s. And in 1898, a gentleman named Seconda Pia, who is a lawyer, he's a follower of Jesus, and he has a camera now, Frank, I've seen the actual camera. It's the size of a dorm fridge. It's massive. This is before celluloid film. He used glass plates, which I have seen, and it. The exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes each. And he's in the. He's in the dark room, and I want to take you there. In your mind's eye, he develops the image and that's what you're seeing on the bottom is the image in the negative, which technically is the photo positive of the sh. And he literally said, never more appropriately, Frank. Oh, my God. He thought he was the first person since the apostolic age to be looking at the face of Jesus. And so that's what started 1898. That picture, which I have seen in Turin, Italy. I've been there, folks. I've met with all the scientists. I've seen the photo myself that kicked off the fascination worldwide with the Shroud. And then you. So there's so many interesting details that you see. And when I speak in audiences, Frank, like you do live, I actually have people switch their phone to color invert, the classic invert, and they can pretend like they're in the dark room and they can see the image for themselves. And then they can. They can scroll up, they can zoom in, and they can see all of the different factors on the Shroud that corresponds with the way in which Jesus was crucified. And I want to be very clear about this. We have hundreds of shrouds from Jerusalem, Masada, the land of Israel. We have a shroud called the Tomb of the Shroud that was discovered in the last 20 years that has leprosy on it, Hansen's disease, showing that Jesus actually did cure leprosy. All the Bible deniers said leprosy wasn't around then. That's been totally now refuted. But we only have one image, Frank, or, excuse me, one shroud that has the image on it of a crucified man. And this image has been proven scientifically. And this is the first time I've used it on the. On this podcast. Proven by scientists that there is no paint. There's no dye, there's no pigment, there's no brush strokes, there's no chemical that leaves the image. The image is superficial. And the best scientists in the world cannot explain how there's an image in this shroud.
- [11:03]
A
Now, we're going to get into it a little bit later in the program that this is not a God of the gaps argument that it's not like we just haven't found a natural explanation for this, but there's positive, empirically verifiable evidence for something spectacular happening, like a resurrection. We'll get into it. But before we do, Jeremiah, I'm looking at this image that we have here. Is this. How big is this? Is this shroud? And explain how it's placed over the body, because it appears like there is a frontal view and a back view.
- [11:38]
B
That's exactly right, Frank. You hit the nail on the head. The Jews did not practice mummification. They did not embalm their dead. They buried their dead on the day of their death. And the shroud, in Jewish burial traditions, which. You're talking to someone who's been in more tombs than anyone else you've ever met in your life. I was in one recently in Emmaus, where someone clapped their hands. Sorry to mess up the audio, but I said, why are you doing that? And they said, we have to do this in one take. We are trying to scare the snakes away. So I've been in all the tombs related to the New Testament. I've filmed in them. I've been in them. What's phenomenal about this is that we have so many shrouds, but we only have one with this image on it. And so, Frank, if you were dead and I wanted to bury you, and I was your brother, we would have a long shroud about 14ft wide, long. Excuse me. And about 3.7 inches wide. We would lay your body naked on top of the Shroud. And then, like a bed sheet, we would then cover your body completely. That's called sinden in Greek. That's Matthew, Mark and Luke. And then John tells us that athonia strips were put around that sinden to keep your mouth closed, to dignify your body, to keep your arms together and your knees together. So after rigor mortis, when your body began to decay, and it would do so in a, quote, unquote, dignified way. And then you have the sudarium, the face cloth, which we can talk about later. And so that there's nothing unusual about that. We have shrouds from all over, including Masada. And so this is just simple Jewish burial tradition. But what's fascinating about this shroud that's 14ft long by 3ft, 7 inches wide, is it has this image that. And Frank, I have met. Listen, there wasn't a bigger skeptic than me. I've met with the scientists from Sandia Laboratories, from Los Alamos Labs, and a scientist working on the Mars project at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. They'll say, yeah, Jeremiah, we're rocket scientists. We literally can't explain how there's a Shroud image here. And so it has to be authentic.
- [13:43]
A
In fact, you put together a little short video of some of the people you interviewed. Let's play that right now.
- [13:52]
B
You're the only one in the world who has ever been able to duplicate what could have caused the image in the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud, unlike any other grave cloth,
- [14:05]
A
contains an anatomically perfect image of a body.
- [14:09]
B
What is the probability that the man of the Shroud is anyone other than Jesus? It's one thing to see it on television. It is. That's a whole other thing to witness it firsthand. The red of the blood was more, let's say, red. The kind of light energy it would take to produce the image that we have on the shroud of Turin.
- [14:39]
A
34 billion watts.
- [14:42]
B
Do you believe that the man of the Shroud is Jesus of Nazareth? I must be deep, right? Right, I must, because the numbers caused
- [14:51]
A
me to be sure. Why?
- [14:54]
B
Is the carbon dating wrong? Or is it wrong? That is, something went wrong. So the question is, why? Maybe this is what science is pointing
- [15:03]
A
to us now more than ever, that maybe this is a resurrection cloth. Well, let's get into it. Let's get into the details. Now that's. That's a great trailer there of the.
- [15:17]
B
Well, we talked to physicists, we talked to mathematicians. I talked to Enrico, who the Shroud today is in Turin, Italy, Frank. Which is. It's not in Rome. Many people think it's in Rome, it's in Turin, Italy. So you fly to Milan, you go shopping a little bit, and then you take the one hour train to Turin. And inside of what's called a reliquary is the Shroud, which I've seen with my own eyes. It's fascinating. You get all the delicious details on the Cross Examine podcast, by the way, because I've been there for four years, so you don't have to go and, but you should. And Enrico, my buddy, he changes the. The Shroud is kept in this, this glass container. It looks like something from Star wars because the same company, Frank, that builds all of the equipment for the International Space Station in Turin, built the box that the Shroud is. So it's not rolled up, it's actually laid flat across the table. And my friend Enrico, he changes the gas twice a year. It's held in complete darkness. And, and I have breaking news for your audience, really, because twice a year he changes it. It's 99% argon gas, 1% oxygen. And we do think that the image and the blood are fading after 2,000 years. So the image actually is getting less and less apparent, which is very interesting just to think about. We may not always have this image. And that's why I'm so glad to come on a huge program like yours and say, I really would compel the Catholic Church to make the Shroud available. It's only been available in the last 200 years on 1% of the days. This has turned into one of the greatest evangelism discipleship tools I've ever seen.
- [16:53]
A
Let's take a look at it in the vertical image, side by side of the wounds, and why it lines up with what we do know about Jesus's crucifixion. Can you go point by point here?
- [17:07]
B
I would love to. And if you don't mind me mentioning this, Frank, I have a brand new book called Jesus Discoveries and I went to the trouble of paying off all these archeologists so that I could get permissions to include the images in my book. I wanted to write a book with very tight, crisp chapters, but that had the images of what we're discussing, the probability, et cetera, where you can read this. I mean, my nine year old son Abel was reading this to me. I'm really writing this for a popular audience and collating all the data and when you look at this, a PhD knows a lot about a little. And the little that I know a lot about is Roman crucifixion and Jewish burial traditions. And when you look at this image and you see all of the wound markers of the crucified, man of the cross, man of the Shroud, you see that it is unimpeachable and the thing that brings it. I'm just going to go right to the good stuff. The man is wearing a helmet of thorns. There are that we know of 50 puncture wounds in the forehead, the scalp, and then there is a massive amount of blood in the back of the head, meaning that this wasn't some kind of cutesy one off sweatband or wreath. The Jews, they fat, excuse me, the Romans, they fashioned a crown of thorns. And these are 3 inch dried Bethlehem thorns. They're sharp as nails when they're dried and they crush that on his head. And this is after he experiences flagram. You can see all of the wound marks on the image. There are 372 lashes that we can count, Frank, on the man of the Shroud. And I hope that these verses are just washing over your audience right now. Isaiah 53, by his stripes were healed. Psalm 22. My bones are out of joint. When I was on Piers Morgan debating two atheists or two deniers at one time, they didn't tell me a second atheist was going to come on or, excuse me, a second shroud denier, who is an atheist, was going to come on. Pierce said, well, Jeremiah, the Shroud is anatomically incorrect. Why are his arms so long? And I waited patiently and I said, Pierce, because his shoulders are separated, the man is flogged. Six out of 10 crucifixion victims did not even survive the whipping. Jesus is dehydrated. We'll get to the blood momentarily. He's experiencing organ failure and kidney failure and he has this, this crown of thorns on his head. And remember the chronology. We've just gone through this on Easter. This is when Pilate in Latin presents Jesus to the crowd. This is a man, Frank, who will soon be dead. And he says in Latin, echo homo, behold the man. And they all. And I want to tell you, if you and I were there, we would have said the same thing. They begin to shout, crucify him. And then he's asked to carry the patibulum. I love Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ. I watched it with my triplets the other night, which was very unique for nine year olds to see. They had a Lot of questions. But the one thing the Passion of the Christ got wrong is they have Jesus carrying the whole cross. No, no one could do that. It's like £500. He carried what's called the patibulum, the crossbeam. And on this image you can actually see the shoulder wounds different from the abrasions where Jesus is holding the cross. And Frank, I think it's at this point that his shoulders are separated even before they nail him to the cross. And so again, we could spend all the time just going through each wound. But the one I want to point out is the side wound. I don't know if you see it. There's a side wound. Jesus, Remember, they're shocked. Most Roman executions lasted four days. They're shocked that Jesus is so quickly dead and they don't break his bones. It's fascinating. Again, the Messianic prophecies, not a bone on his body will be broken, but they want to make sure he's dead. And so they actually spear him through rib 5 and 6 on the left side. And the Gospel of John, which is not a medical journal, says that blood and water stream out. Well, guess what? Do you see that blood? It's right by that triangle, which is just. All those triangles are just patch marks, by the way. And that blood is post mortem blood.
- [21:21]
A
Hold that thought for a second. Dr. Jeremiah.
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B
Yeah, please.
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A
Is I'm looking at this, maybe I'm looking at it inadvertently. Is the wound on the right side or the left side?
- [21:31]
B
Left side. And it might be mirrored differently with your image. Okay, it's on the left side. Where it has to be.
- [21:37]
A
Where his heart is.
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B
Exactly. Okay, so talk about the blood.
- [21:43]
A
First of all, what type of blood is on the shroud?
- [21:46]
B
And we have image. I've brought all the receipts for you.
- [21:49]
A
So let's, let's take a look at the blood for a second. We'll come back to this image.
- [21:54]
B
Yep, let's look at it. So Barry Schwartz, who's there, was the Shroud of turn research project, 33 scientists. And Frank, I hope you don't mind me being transparent with you and your audience, but I've spoken to these scientists who are still alive. They thought they got a free trip to Italy. They're in the lobby of the hotel in Turin having drinks, and they're joking about how stupid the shroud is. And one of them famously said, Give me 15 minutes in the scientific method and I will prove the shroud is a hoax. Frank, nobody was joking. After the first day, I have this firsthand they couldn't explain how there was an image in this shroud. So we have two Jewish. By the way, I want to just mention this. Hematologists, these are people that are blood experts. They study the blood. And again, when he starts, it's kind of like your book. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. I don't have enough faith to believe the shroud is a hoax. Books. Your masterful book points out. I mean, what you would have to go to to believe there was no God. They, Helen and Adler, Heller and Adler. I honestly don't even know if they're Christians truly, but they do. The blood samples, it's human blood, Frank. It is blood that stays red. As we're seeing on the image. You can actually see this blood is red. Because it turns out, I had no idea until I studied this, that when a human has been traumatized, your red blood cells break down into plasma and it excretes extra bilirubin, which causes the blood to stay red looking on the shroud instead of like a dark brown or muddy color. Because this is blood that is human that has been traumatized. And it's not only human blood, it's type AB blood. And Frank, if there was ever a priestly line of blood, I mean, this gives me chills, it would be type AB blood. Because the fewest amount of people in the world have type AB blood. This is Semitic blood. So again, how are you going to make this up if you're hoaxing it? 700 years ago, you'd have to kill someone, traumatize them. Additionally, Frank, I've done some look at some of the recent hematological reports and we can actually study that. Not only is the blood type AB blood, and we have already said why it stays red, it has high levels of ferritin and creatinine. Means that our Savior was experiencing organ failure. His kidneys were shutting down, he was dehydrated. So no wonder. One of his seven sayings is I thirst. We can tell from the blood signature that he was thirsty. He had lost one third of his blood volume just in the flagram in the whipping he took just before he even gets to the cross. And this is why he dies so quickly. We can tell all of that from the blood. So to close the loop, Barry Schwarz, who is a Jewish man, he was there in 1978, Frank, when they had the weekend to study the Shroud. He's the documenting photographer of the Shroud of turn. He's given the TED talk, literally on the shroud it took 17 additional years for him to believe that the Shroud was authentic. And it's this very question you're asking me right now that convinced him without a doubt that this is Jesus of Nazareth. It was the type ab, Semitic blood. Isn't that fascinating? He told me that himself. He's now dead. I hope and pray he was a Christian before he died, but he told me Jeremiah, it was the blood type that convinced me now.
- [25:20]
A
There's so much blood on the Shroud. You said there were 372
- [25:27]
B
lashes. And I want to make this clear. Remember, we don't have the lateral sides on the Shroud.
- [25:34]
A
Okay.
- [25:35]
B
Jesus resurrects and he literally goes through the cloth again. It's taken me years to learn this stuff. That's why this podcast is so important. You need to watch it, share it with me, your friends. I thought this was like, oh, he resurrected and like Lazarus, he kind of like, you know, takes off his grave gloves. No. Jesus's body is capable of new abilities. It will never die. According to the Gospels, in Acts, he can appear in rooms and disappear without using the door. That's unique. And so he emanates through the cloth. And we'll talk here in a minute about the light power, I hope. Absolutely. But we do not have the lateral side. So this isn't like a 360 image. It's just the front and the back. Because it happened in 1/40 of a billionth of a second. And so we surmise, Frank, and this is where it takes my breath away that Jesus would take my sin in this way. 700 lashes on his body. If you just take what we have on the front and back. This includes the pelvic region. This includes, we believe, one of his eyes, that the flagram caught one of his eyes and blinded one of his eyes. Can you explain desensitized to the price he paid?
- [26:49]
A
We have no idea. Because as you've pointed out previously, that if you just read the one sentence that they had Jesus flogged. We don't dwell on that. That's what it says in the Gospels. They had Jesus, basically. Describe, if you would, the whipping device. What did it have on it that would cause such damage?
- [27:10]
B
I'll do my best, Frank, because, you know, I. I felt embarrassed in a way. Right before the Hamas terrorist attack, I was in Israel, I was filming and I had the afternoon off, something that has never happened to me before in Israel. And I go and I see a flagram. Flagram. This is the whip. I thought it was like an Indiana Jones style whip. But it turns out this is rawhide. And there are three cords. They're only a little over a foot long. And at the end of them, they have these two barbell lead balls on them. Now, some had bones and teeth, etc. But definitely the ones that were practiced in the Syrian province of Jerusalem, which, by the way, I wish I had more time. The most brutal place to be crucified was in Judea that we have, based on the history. I'm not doing some kind of Christian trance right now. We have so many victims of crucifixion, and the most, it seems like Pontius Pilate was the most brutal based on the evidence. And so Jesus endures this flogging, as you can see on the images. And we know that there were two executioners who were whipping him one after the other, one after the other. And the ends, each whip would leave six puncture marks because there's three rawhide cords with two barbell lead balls at the end of it, just ripping his flesh front and back. And this was the flogging. But this wasn't enough. This is where again, Pontius Pilate presents him and says, ecco homo, behold the man. And they say, crucify him. And when you think about it, Barabbas. And we're all Barabbas. He's the only one in history who literally Jesus took his place on the cross. Think about Barabbas for a minute. And there's that beautiful scene in the Passion of the Christ where they make eye contact, but we're all Barabbas because Jesus did it all to pay for our sin. And that's why I tell people now, and I want to say this right ahead of this, the Shroud for me. I have five children and a wife. Every time I go to dinner now with my family, I'm charged automatic gratuity because we're a party of seven. It's annoying. So I always ask for an itemized receipt. And that's just my life, having children, this many kiddos. The Shroud is an itemized receipt, Frank. Of how much Jesus loves us. When you look at all the accounting terms that are used in the Greek New Testament, we were bought, we were paid for, we were ransomed, we were redeemed. The last term that Jesus uses on the cross is a CPA term, tetelestai, in his native tongue, paid in full. And so when I look at the Shroud, I see an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves me.
- [30:01]
A
An infinite God had to punish sin. Otherwise he wouldn't be infinitely just, ladies and gentlemen. And so when you see the brutality of this crucifixion on God himself, you realize that there was no other way to remain just and justify sinners than this. This is why Paul says in Romans 3:26 that God remains just and is justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. There is a scene in the Passion where Jesus is being flogged, he's being whipped and this whip comes down on his back and clings to his skin, his flesh as he as the whipper pulls it off. That would have teeth or some kind of, some kind of bone that would dig into the flesh and pull flesh off when you pulled the whip out. It's just brutal. And to have 372 spots on this shroud. And as you said earlier, Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, if you're just joining us, says that's just the front and the back. We don't have the sides of Jesus from this shroud of torrent. I've also heard Dr. Jeremiah, we'll go back to this image of all the wounds that the fact that you can't see the thumbs is also correct. If a nail was put through the wrist, why is that?
- [31:29]
B
Well, we're all so unduly influenced by medieval Christian art that presents Jesus as effeminate, weak, and he's punctured through the palms. For you Greek scholars out there, the same word for hands, forearm and wrist. It's the same word in Greek. So don't think we're doing anything anti biblical here. It was like the perfect spot, literally right here. Otherwise the body would not have been able to, literally, the flesh would have just ripped. And so the reason we can't see the hands is, you can imagine in rigor mortis, you're crucified. For those that are watching this and your hands just fold. I mean you have the full weight of your body. The man of the shroud is 5 foot 10 to 5 foot 11. He weighs 170 to 180 pounds. He's a Jewish man with a long beard as all Jewish men would have, with long hair as all Jewish men would have. And he's a man's man. When I teach, I've been teaching grad school since 2012. When I teach the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus probably walked 20,000 miles in his ministry. He had a six pack. I mean this is a guy that was a man's man and he was able to endure the six. And for us on the cross. This is why Hebrews says, sacrifices and offerings. You do not require a body you prepared for me. And so that is why you can't see the thumb. So, again, there is a wonderful biblical explanation to all of this, but then it adds up historically and archeologically and from the scholarly community as well.
- [32:56]
A
So the nail going through this part of the hand or the wrist right here would have collapsed the thumb behind the hand. And that's why we can't see it, ladies and gentlemen. On the Shroud, we can't see the thumb. So it's correct in what we know about a physical crucifixion. Tell us about the foot wound and the fact that we found a heel bone crucified from the first century.
- [33:19]
B
I have an actual. I've just acquired. I love this. I love acquiring artifacts because it turns out, you know, I have two teenagers and triplets, and they go screensaver on me if I talk for more than two minutes. So I have to use visual aids. And I've actually used this now as a tactic and debate and speaking. It's so powerful, I actually have an authentic crucifixion nail. It's six inches long. It matches the exact crucifixion nail that you're mentioning at the Israel Antiquities Museum that we have from poor Yehuhanan, who was crucified through his heel bone. This is something, too, that I've done work with Scott Stripling, my good archaeological friend. Jesus is likely crucified with four nails, not three being obviously the two wrists, but through the calcaneus. He would have almost straddled, if you can imagine, the cross, and they would go right through the heel bones on either side. And they would actually use an olive wood washer, and they would crush through the keels and affix him to the cross that way. So it makes it even more painful and more reasonable why he died so quickly. There is no footstool. There's no step. There is no rest for him to stand up and breathe. His feet are literally crucified through the calcaneus. And that's the same signature we see
- [34:36]
A
on the shroud, ladies and gentlemen. Remember the very first prophecy in the Bible, Genesis 3:15, right? The offspring of Eve will crush the head of the serpent, but the offspring of the serpent will bruise his heel. And you have that right here on the cross that the Messiah's heel is bruised by Satan. I don't have time to get into this now. We covered this in the Bible you Never knew series, the section on David. But Remember when David slays Goliath, just very briefly, Goliath is in serpentine armor. Goliath is the Satan figure. In this exchange, David cuts off his head. And where does he bring his head? Jerusalem. Jerusalem was not the capital at that point. Hebron was. David wasn't even the king at this point, but he had to take Jerusalem years later. But why does he take Goliath's head to Jerusalem? Because that's where his ancestor, his lord, a thousand years later, is going to crush the head of Satan. And by being crucified himself and then resurrected from the dead, he does that a thousand years before that event. All this fits with scripture. Remember, ladies and gentlemen, the Bible is not just literary literally true, it's literarily true. There are these repeated themes and events that come up over and over again. Third day is one of them. Crush the head is another.
- [36:12]
B
Bruise the heel is another.
- [36:13]
A
It comes up again. Ladies and gentlemen, we see it here also on the Shroud of Turin that our friend Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston is taking us on a tour through. What is this business about rigor mortis? I see here on this image again, Dr. Johnston, what is that about?
- [36:31]
B
Well, it's just right in line with what you're saying. It's more messianic passages. His body will not see decay as a messianic passage. And what's fascinating about the image on the shroud, there's no bodily decay on the shroud that's traceable, meaning that, that this individual, this shroud covered his body for a very short period of time. And I have more breaking news for your podcast. Craig Evans and I yesterday were speaking at a symposium together and we actually have data about how priceless these shrouds were. Of course you know about the Nazareth inscription in your audience, that it's this, this penal crime punishable by death to, to be a grave robber. But we've actually uncovered a brand new text that shows that individuals would rob graves, they would leave the dead bodies, but they would steal the shrouds because they were so valuable. We have the exact opposite in Jesus's case.
- [37:29]
A
That's great.
- [37:30]
B
We have no body, but we have an actual shroud that's left behind. You would have never done that because of the value of these shrouds. And Craig and I presented that. And this is brand new, honestly, first media show I've shared this on. Happy to share it. Even in the show notes, the actual notes on this, it's so powerful because the shroud was so valuable. And again, what that shows us is the resurrection narratives embedded, the empty tomb tradition, the appearance tradition. It all smacks of authenticity in the first century. And Frank, we never would have invented the gospel narrative that, that the body's missing. We would have obviously taken the shroud with it because of its extreme value. And so just to put it in chronology, it's very important too that people understand the chronology of it. Jesus dies at 3pm on Good Friday. He must be buried before 6pm, before nightfall on that Shabbat. It's a high Shabbat. It's Passover. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. He gives permission and that's exactly what we see in the Mishnah. If the Sanhedrin condemned a body or a person to death, it was the Sanhedrin's responsibility to dispose of the body. Arimathea does something bold again. It's one of these fast Bible verses we read way too quickly. He says, I'll give him my tomb, I'll give him my shroud. Joseph had already provided for his own death planning. And this is when Jesus is dead on the cross. I want to just mention this to you because I go into depth in my new book, the Jesus Discoveries. Jewish burial traditions were such that even the blood was sacred. And so Frank, if you and I are. Let's just pretend you're Nicodemus, I'm Arimathea. We're older gentlemen. We're not necessarily hugely strong. But it's our responsibility to get his body off the cross. The first thing we would have done is wrap up it his face with a cloth just to honor his body. And he's naked, completely. His body has been horribly disfigured. And so we first wrap his face with what's called the sudarium in John chapter 20. This is before the resurrection moment. We even. Frank, since you're Nicodemus, you may have had to pinch his nose to keep all the blood from. And again, this is truth from just flowing out of his body. And we actually have that signature on the sudarium. We don't have an image on the sudarium because we wanted to honor Jesus body because we love him and because we care about Jewish burial traditions. And so we wrap his face to get him off the cross and then we carry him 200ft to my tomb, Arimathea. And we lay his naked body on this shroud, at which time we then remove carefully the face cloth because we're wrapping his whole body in the shroud. And then we take that face Cloth. And we put it in the corner and that's how it went. So I just wanted to help a lot of people who read John 20 verses 5 through 7, and they think that the Shroud contradicts the Bible. It doesn't. You wouldn't leave Jesus totally naked in his face. I mean, who knows if his eyes were. We don't know. It was bad. And these two amazing men, Nicodemus and Arimathea, honor his body even in death. Death. And does that make sense? Does that help the audience?
- [40:49]
A
Yes. Tell us too. We're going to get to the objection a little bit later about it being a medieval forgery, but we need more evidence before we get there. Yeah, tell us a little bit before we get to the image about the pollen that's been discovered.
- [41:06]
B
My coffee.
- [41:07]
A
Yes. Because this is amazing. Go ahead. I've heard you talk. Get out of the lawn chair.
- [41:14]
B
This is amazing. A criminologist. I don't know if he's a Christian or not. He's did the Hitler Diaries. He's a CSI criminologist who spent five years of his life. We actually have photos in our touring. We tour with this. This Shroud experience across the country in the world. Now, he took 3M Scotch tape. Okay. I can't make this up. And he literally took all the pollens. We're here in Texas, you know, where God has a second home right now, where I'm recording. And we have pollen every. Everywhere. Everybody's sneezing and coughing. Well, it turns out there's 58 pollen spores on the shroud. Frank. 38 of the 58 only come from Jerusalem in springtime, in bloom during the Passover. The other 20 pollen spores follow. And we have a map of this. They follow the tracing of the Shroud throughout history. Its provenance from Jerusalem to Edessa to Constantinople.
- [42:08]
A
Let's go to that. But let's go to that image right now. Since we're talking about it. This is how we know where the Shroud originated and where it ended.
- [42:15]
B
Tells us it's provenance.
- [42:17]
A
Here it is.
- [42:18]
B
And I want to give credit to Constantinople and the Greek Orthodox Church that protected the Shroud from the Islamic caliphate taking over the world at the time. So we have it going. 33. Absolutely. Arimathea keeps it. All four Gospels mentioned the Shroud. No one is going to lose this. And then Eusebius tells us about this face cloth, this Mandelian. I'm sorry to use this example, but it's the easiest one I know. I'm a Massive. My one addiction in life, Frank, is the Kansas City Chiefs. I'm from Kansas City, went to games my whole life with my grandpa and my mom. And the Chiefs weren't always the Chiefs. They were known actually as the Dallas Texans before they became the Chiefs. The Shroud is very similar. It's been known by different names. Names. It's only been called the Shroud of Turin since the 1500s, 1578, I think, 16th century, when it goes from France to Turin, Italy, in a political move more than anything. And so it's been known throughout church history as the face cloth, the mandelian. And when you look at this, I love this. I'm a visual learner, so I love this map. This is where all the pollen is from outside of Jerusalem. And. And it's like a Where is Waldo? It seems to trace where the Shroud has been throughout Church history in the last 2000 years.
- [43:36]
A
But most of it is from Jerusalem.
- [43:40]
B
38 of the 58. And it only blooms in, let me be clear, springtime, March, April, Passover, Nissan 14. And that's what blew. I mean, Max Fry, I just summarized in two minutes five years of the man's investigation as a. As a criminologists studying this.
- [43:58]
A
So how could a forger do that?
- [44:00]
B
They couldn't. And here's the other fascinating thing, and this, this is where I can start crying, so forgive me if I dad cry. But we don't just have that. We have travertine. We have. And I again write about this in my new book, the Jesus Discoveries. Jesus collapses on his way to Calvary. And again, we just read that so fast, like, oh, he fell. He tripped. Simon of Cyrene carries his cross. No Jesus. Shoulders likely separated. And Frank, I don't know if you've heard this before, but we actually have this travertine we have from the grottoes of Jerusalem. This only from the grottoes of Jerusalem, this limestone residue. And it's in three places on the Shroud. It's in your feet, obviously. He walked barefoot. It's in his knees, and then it's in the tip of his nose. So when Jesus collapses, I want you to see in your mind's eye our Savior literally face planted. And that same signature is in the Shroud. So we don't just have the pollen. I want to be very clear, and I've worked on this with Scott Stripling, my archeologist friend. We have the travertine signature only from limestone in Jerusalem on the Shroud. How would you fake this?
- [45:17]
A
Yeah, there's no way. Yeah, it's like trying to fake. It's like trying to fake the archaeology of Jericho a thousand years later.
- [45:24]
B
The blood type. Let's kill someone. And we. We don't know blood types 700 years ago, but let's find someone randomly. We have a 6% chance in 100 of finding someone with type AB blood. Let's make sure we brutalize him in a way where he's alive enough to die on the cross, where we can at least get his blood, where it has this level of. Of ferritin and. Or, I mean, it becomes crazy.
- [45:48]
A
In fact, you have a probability calculation. Why don't we take a look at that? Dr. Johnston had to fly to Turin,
- [45:55]
B
Frank, to tell you this.
- [45:57]
A
Here it is.
- [45:57]
B
It was a great. It was a great trip. I stopped at the Gucci store for my wife to validate the trip in Milan and then took the train to. I met with. And this isn't my work. I want to give all the credit to Brad Bruno Barbarus, he's a mathematician, by the way. His last name is not lost on me. The irony of it. Barbarus. Sound familiar? Bruno Barbarus has been with the Shroud, the actual Shroud, more than any living human. He's given 4,000 lectures on it. He's not a pastor, not a priest, he's not a preacher. He's a mathematician from the University of Turin, Italy. And when he assigns the probability, and I put all of this in the book, but you're seeing the kind of the Cliff Notes, this really cool image, he assigns the probability based on all of the wounds of the crucified man, who is. Because we all have to ask the question, who is the crucified man of the Shroud? Is it Jesus or is it someone else? Well, the crown of thorns leaves it beyond, no doubt for me, but when you look at all of it, the side wound, the calcaneus wounds, when you look at the scourging, the flogging, when you look at the abrasions from holding the vetibulum, I asked Bruno on film, I said, bruno, what are the chances this is Jesus from Nazareth? He said, oh, Jeremiah. The probability. This is a mathematician, Frank. One in 200 billion. It's anyone other than Jesus from Nazareth. And I said, now I'm from Kansas.
- [47:25]
A
So you're saying there's a chance.
- [47:27]
B
This is like Lloyd Christmas. Like, are you saying there's a chance it's not. I was like, so, Bruno, let me just follow up and ask. And I'm almost Embarrassed. But now I'm glad I asked this because of his Italian response. I said, so are you saying you believe it's Jesus? And he looked at me like I was an idiot. And he said, how can I not believe? The numbers compel me, you know, in a perfect Italian fashion, waving his fists around. I have to believe based on the probability that it's Jesus of Nazareth. Isn't that fascinating? And we got to talk about the light, Frank. We can't.
- [47:59]
A
We're definitely getting there. But look at this graphic here. The probabilities on the left were from Stevenson and habermas maybe 45 years or so ago.
- [48:08]
B
And this is current now with Barbarous.
- [48:11]
A
Yes. These are the probabilities he assigned to having each of these features on this shroud. How could it be anybody other than Jesus? Let's now talk about the image. It's not paint. What is it?
- [48:28]
B
Not pigment. It's not dye. There's no brush strokes. It is not man made. And so a lot of great, fine evangelical Christians are concerned, are we violating the second commandment, worshiping the Shroud? I've never worshiped it. We put 125,000 people through our exhibit last year. I never saw anyone worship it. It's just a tool. Just like Frank. You lead tours in the Bible lands. You know, it's a tool to help us understand the Bible in its context. It's an amazing discipleship and evangelism tool. And so when you look at the image, we have to ask, how is it there? And this is, Frank, if you ask me, jj, what pushed you from skepticism to thinking it's authentic? Without a doubt, it's this point. The greatest scientists in the world, rocket scientists, cannot explain how there's an image in the clothes. The image is superficial. It's 0.02 microns thin. So if you took a piece of your hair and divided it up 1/5, that's how superficial the image is. If you backlight it, the image vanishes. You can only see it from the front. If you're within eight feet, you cannot see it because it's that superficial. You have to stand eight feet back. And so I meet with Paulo Delazaro of Aneel Laboratories in Turin. And this is during Jubilee, during Conclave last year. And I said, paulo, tell me about your research, bro. And he said, well, I spent five years. He has a weapons clearance. It sounds like Star Wars. He has one of the most powerful lasers on Earth, and he beams light. And they grew from flax, a shroud, just as you would have had in the first century. And they kept testing. Took five years. And to change, Frank, a postage stamp. I mean, much smaller than a napkin. Remember I told you earlier, you asked the lens length 14:4 by 3:7. He was able to change the size of a postage stamp using 34 billion watts of energy traveling at 1/40 of a billionth of a second. Three to four times the amount of power we have on Earth. But it was pick power, cold power. And he was able to change a small part, that small in the shroud. We cannot quantify the power it took to bring Jesus back from the dead. We literally cannot, in scientific terms, replicate it. And so Romans 8:11 says the same power that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us who believe. That's a lot of power.
- [50:55]
A
Yeah. You say in the book that not since the big bang has there been so much power.
- [51:01]
B
It's a bigger bang to redeem humanity,
- [51:04]
A
it turns out right, than to create it. And God redeemed it. Now we have some imagery here showing that the shroud has some depth to it.
- [51:15]
B
Right.
- [51:15]
A
Or some height. I don't know how you look at this. Let's take a look at this image with the shroud on the left and a couple of green images on the right. What is that showing us?
- [51:22]
B
Okay. This is so cool. Thank you so much for showing this to your audience. Again, there's a story to this. 1976. Eric Jumper and John Jackson are physicists with the Air Force Academy. They're hanging out in New Mexico, Sandia, Los Alamos Laboratories. They're working on nuclear bombs. No big deal. And they have the VP8 image analyzer, which studies the effect of the nuclear bomb on planet Earth. A lot of people have erroneously said, like it was used to study the moon surface. That's all false. That's Chad. GTP nonsense. The VP8 image analyzer studies the effects of the atom bomb. And they're just hanging out, Frank, like you and I would. We'd probably talk all night about the things we're interested in. And they said, hey, I have an image of this shroud. Have you heard of it? Let's just put it through the image analyzer and see what happens. Now they have pictures of their grandkids which they put through the image analyzer. And they're all distorted and murky, but they put the image of the shroud. Keep in mind they don't have the shroud. Okay. They have an image of the shroud. Probably the on re image that C.S. lewis had. From 1931. And Frank, this is what we're looking at. They put the image through their VP at Image Analyzer and it has 3D information. It's like a hologram. It has light density to it, meaning that the image did not occur from contact with the clock cloth. This is where I've blown away the skeptics in my articles on the blaze. The image did not happen from contact with the cloth. It is this light source that we do not understand. That's 1976. I've met with John Jackson. We both spoke at the International Shroud of Turin conference recently at the Augustine Institute. What a fine man. And this were again, Frank, I'm so thankful to have it on your large platform because a lot of these scientists are dying now. I want to carry their work forward because they've given their life to it. John Jackson says 17 things occurred that we cannot explain scientifically. And this is a physicist from the Air Force Academy. And so if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it might be a duck. We need to have a little bit more open mindedness to the evidence.
- [53:38]
A
So back to the question of a God of the gaps argument. You know, that's when you say, well, I don't have a natural explanation, so I'm just going to plug God into the gap of my knowledge and say, oh, it must have been some sort of supernatural event that caused this. However, what you're saying is it appears that according to this one scientist you spoke to and I guess others, he's saying it would take 34 billion watts
- [54:05]
B
of energy, cold energy, but the speed traveling at 1/40 of a billionth of a second to leave an image in the cloth which we cannot replicate on planet Earth.
- [54:15]
A
So that would appear to be a positive evidence for something beyond the natural. It's not just that we lack a natural explanation for this, we're saying we
- [54:25]
B
have an explanation, we just can't generate it. Yeah, yeah, it's supernatural. And here's what's cool, Frank, you know the Bible and your audience does so well, every time Jesus appears, he appears as magnificent light. Mark 9, the Transfiguration, Acts 26. Paul's on the road to Damascus. He says, I saw a light brighter than the noonday sun and that was the resurrected Christ. Revelation. There'll be no need for the sun someday in the new heaven and the new earth, because Jesus will give light to all. There seems to me to be a biblical consistency. And as Craig and I said yesterday at a conference this is speculative. Now, I don't have scientific data, but, you know, John didn't have a flashlight with Duracell batteries when he went to the tomb with Peter. I wonder, Frank, was the image actually glowing in the tomb? When John and Peter look in, they literally see this bright, glowing image, the face of Jesus, left like skid marks on the shroud. And that's where John says, I saw and I believed. And that's what I want your audience. I want your audience to be able to say the same. I saw and believed. I want your audience to be able to say, with Mary Also in John 20, I have seen the Lord.
- [55:41]
A
He is the light of the world. I also want to. And this is way back in my distant memory, so this may not be correct, and maybe you wouldn't know either. But I'll ask you. I thought I saw some imagery or video of the moment of conception and when human being. Isn't there a flash of light.
- [56:02]
B
Absolutely. Okay, so there seems to be a corollary here with life and resurrected life tied to light. And that is. I've had, you know, thousands of comments on these, and many people have sent me that. Again, so many points of tangency. And so again, if we're reasonable people who follow evidence, how much evidence does it take you to believe that something is real or evidential? I mean. I mean, I know a lot more about the Shroud than, you know. I'm an American Airlines junkie. I know a lot less about how these planes work that fly me to where I need to preach, but I still step on board with two feet. I know a lot more frank about the Shroud. So again, because I'm not irrational, I'm just following the evidence. And again, the resurrection stands without the Shroud.
- [56:51]
A
Yes.
- [56:52]
B
You know, so we need to make that point clearly. Very much so.
- [56:55]
A
If this is a fake, it doesn't appear to be, but it doesn't. It doesn't change. The evidence for the resurrection changes nothing. This is like icing on the cake here.
- [57:02]
B
But I do think it's interesting, Frank, and I'm. I'm not like a boogeyman Christian. I do feel, though, that we're getting closer to the second coming of Christ. And I just wonder, has God tied this amazing revelation tied to technology as we get closer to Christ coming? I mean, think about photography. 1840s. Well, the first picture is 1898. And, you know, this has drawn people to Christ. I met a guy yesterday who shook my hand in Houston, and he said, Jeremiah. I saw the presentation on the shroud, it brought me back to Jesus. He's telling me this. And so whatever it is, it's a tool that we can use. And again, no other religion. And Frank, this is what you do masterfully. No other religion has archeology as its best friend and its closest cousin but Christianity. You know, we can't put up a exhibit for Islam of archaeology because there is none or any of the other religions. But man, I can put up. I just put 20,000 people last week through an exhibit that started with the Dead sea Scrolls, Isaiah 53, and ended with the empty tomb. We can do that in Christianity because you can actually test our religion because it's based on real people, real places, and the real event of the resurrection.
- [58:16]
A
Before we get to the. The two or three biggest objections to this, I want to show one more image that you have. It's the image of a raised part of the shroud. In fact, the entire shroud appears to be raised. And then you have some other imagery of the shroud going over the face of Jesus. Explain to us the significance of these images that we have on the screen.
- [58:42]
B
Yes, this is that VP8 image analyzer that shows that. That we have imagery of the body where the shroud cloth is not connected or touching the body. We cannot explain that we can see the body where the image is there, but the shroud was not in contact with the body, which shows that the image did not emanate from contact with the body. And I just can't say this more clearly because I've had to write refutations to other explanations of the shroud. And the VP8 image analyzer deals, it shows with modern scientific means. This image is there that we cannot explain. And it even appears in places where the shroud is not in contact with the body.
- [59:31]
A
Wow. So, so much amazing data here that it's really hard to say that this was a forgery. But here. Yeah, here are some of the objections. Come on. Well, actually, let me go back to one thing you said in 1976, they began to scientifically investigate the shroud. And what was the reason that they decided to scientifically investigate it? What.
- [59:59]
B
What sort of that spurred that, what we just saw?
- [60:02]
A
Okay.
- [60:03]
B
1976, this image comes out of this VP8 nuclear nuclear image analyzer. Two years later, 33 scientists, Shroud of Turn research project, travel to Turin, Italy, and actually test the shroud. They take three years to publish their findings where they prove, and I think it's the first time I've used the word prove on your interview. That the Shroud is not man made. And they literally cannot explain how there's an image in the Shroud.
- [60:29]
A
Okay, but if you say, plug this into AI right now. We don't. AI doesn't always tell you the truth. But they'll say there's no consensus here. They'll say this was a forgery from the 1400s or the 1300s. Tell us why that's not true and why the dating came out incorrectly.
- [60:52]
B
Right. Two questions. Well, first, you have to actually deal with the science first. We could say anything was a forgery. I mean, I could quote Porphyry and Kelsis to you right now. Who ridiculed the Christian movement for having women. Female eyewitnesses. And what a joke the Christian movement is. So we can always appeal to hostile witnesses as forgeries. That doesn't mean they're valid. You have to actually deal with the science. And we have now the beauty of modern science saying, there is no pigment, there is no paint. These forgeries from the 14th century, they didn't have the privilege of science. They could say, oh, that was just a paint job. And again, we have to put oursel in the world. I know, Frank, you've probably done Reformation tours. We have to put ourselves in the world of the medieval time. There were great Christians who were so tired of relics.
- [61:39]
A
Right.
- [61:40]
B
You know, I've been to the home of John Tzel, where he said every time a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs. I mean, there was an uprising against anything related relics. So if you were hearing someone had another relic of an image of Jesus, oh boy, here's someone else ripping someone else. It's natural to see that. But here's the cool thing. You actually have to deal with the science. And as we've already stated, this is an artifact. And so let's talk about the carbon dating. 1988, utterly corrupt dating. I could just literally again hold my coffee while I talk about the carbon dating. Josh McDowell had actually removed this chapter from his book because he had discounted the Shroud based on the. The carbon dating, which I'm thankful he removed from his book because it's based on data. And here's where I want to be extremely clear. Seven labs were supposed to carbon date the Shroud. Only three did. Arizona, Zurich and Oxford. The Shroud of turn. Research team said, whatever you do, don't carbon date the edges, the sides, because they've been repaired. Frank, we had our shroud that I got from Barry on our dining room table. And my Wife had to reinvent, reinforce it with gaff tape, because even our replica was coming apart at the edges from holding it. Okay. So the scientists knew that on the edges there would be cotton, something done to repair it. Well, what did they do? They actually carbon dated the top left corner, the very spot the scientists said, don't date that. We know that's been patched. And so it comes back and they write 1260-1390 on the board in 1988, and it becomes global headlines. You may remember this because you're ancient, Frank, like I am. That's right, Global headlines. The Shroud is a medieval forgery. What's fascinating is one of the guys at the press conference, and again, I don't want to cast aspersions, I just speak the truth. Was awarded a 5 million pound endowed share right after that. The British Museum suppresses the raw data for 27 years of the carbon dating. My friend Tristan Casablanca just published a book, Props to him. Another guy who gave his life to get the raw data of the carbon dating took 27 years. And he shows, and I want to be technical, that the samples they used are not homogeneous with the Shroud itself. Does that make sense? So in other words, did they test the Shroud? Maybe. But it was probably a patched version of the Shroud and it certainly was not homogeneous. Homogeneous with the actual Shroud we have. So if you were to pile up all of the scales of truth, don't use the carbon dating. I'm sorry for the long answer, but I just want to be very clear that the car. And then there's a 2019 Journal of Archaeometry published journal, same place. Oxford University says those results now cannot be taken. They're very, very corrupted.
- [64:40]
A
Now, if they try and date a real part of the Shroud, will that destroy that part of the Shroud? Is that why they haven't done it? Or have they done it?
- [64:48]
B
Frank, this is wild. We're going to go down like the rabbit hole. Right now I'm meeting with Robert Rucker, a nuclear engineer, last year. The Shroud gets has a future dating to it the closer you get to the center. I cannot explain this. You'll have to have him on your show. He's a nuclear engineer that shows that the Shroud dates to the future from right now, based on his studies. I don't understand it. I'm not a nuclear engineer.
- [65:14]
A
Wow. Okay, so he has dated it, but not carbon 14 or how's he dated?
- [65:19]
B
Yeah, he's dating it in a way. So, Jeremiah, we Can't explain this. I'm a nuclear engineer. And so when I went on Piers, I was like, dude, you just spent two hours telling me this. I need two seconds. He said, well, just say a nuclear event occurred at the moment of Jesus's resurrection. That will suffice.
- [65:36]
A
All right, well, there you have it. Are there any other major objections that you want to comment on?
- [65:44]
B
Well, I'm very concerned about Bible scholars who are agnostic about the Shroud. I speak in a world of minimalists. You know, I, I did not do a confessional Track for my PhD and, and my biggest concern or for all the Bible scholars out there that have never bothered, bothered. They're so siloed in their research, they've never bothered to do any kind of cross disciplinary studies. And so I hope that this will raise awareness of the validity of the Shroud. I really can't think of any other objection. There are some great fine Christians who read the Bible so carefully and they're like, oh, Jesus couldn't have had long hair or couldn't have had a beard or you know, violates linen cloths. And I've answered those things very pastorally and exegetically in my book the Jesus Discovery. So Frank, I'm not exaggerating. I am convinced based on the evidence, the Shroud is authentic.
- [66:37]
A
By the way, ladies and gentlemen, the Shroud of Turin is only one chapter out of ten in Jeremiah's book there. So he's covering other archaeological discoveries in that book, including the Jesus or the, the James ossuary and several others in that book. So you want to pick up that book. How is, isn't there a website somewhere that kind of keeps up to date on the Shroud? Yes, Jeremiah. What is that?
- [67:03]
B
Yeah, it's the Shroud Project. If you just Google, I think it's shroud.org my friend Joe Marino has taken the reins of Barry Schwartz who died. And it's all free. You can see hundreds of articles and you can just search it up. As my boys say, these different hematological studies, the carbon dating, it's all there. I encourage people to study it. And Frank, we've got to raise up a new generation. I'm really concerned. I mean, when I'm at this Augustine Institute speaking, I mean, everybody is older than me and there is such a hunger for this information that we're sharing. I wouldn't be surprised if this interview goes viral. Every time you mention the Shroud. There's just such a hunger. And my only deal, my dog in the hunt is I have five kids. And it turns out that the greatest way I've been able to explain to them how much God loves them is showing this itemized receipt of the Shroud to my five kids. And it's really hit home. It's made such an impact. And so I'm speaking as a dad. Wow. I've loved taking my kids on a journey of don't ever doubt God's love for you. Romans 5:8 in the Greek is in the continuous God keeps showing his love for us and that while we were yet sinners, he sent his best when we were at our worst, Christ to die in our place.
- [68:22]
A
And ladies and gentlemen, redemption's better than innocence. To see what God had to do for you because he's infinitely just to take your punishment upon himself should make you even more grateful for what he's done than if he had just created you and you were in a state of innocence innocence. When you fell into sin, God pulled you out of that pit and not only forgave you, he's giving you his righteousness. What could be greater than that? That's why redemption is better than innocence. And Jesus has come to redeem us from the pit. And this is great work. Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston it's always great having you on. And I didn't have to use this button once.
- [69:03]
B
Wrong.
- [69:03]
A
Because everything you says, you said here
- [69:06]
B
appeared to be clear.
- [69:07]
A
Correct.
- [69:07]
B
I did my notes to come on your show. I'm not gonna lie. You know, sometimes I'm an autopilot. Not on the Frank Turret cross examine show.
- [69:14]
A
Well, it is great to have you on. Thanks for doing this. What's, what's coming up in the future regarding this? Is there another project that you're working on with regard to the Shroud?
- [69:25]
B
We're doing a tour now across the world. Just spoke at the World Economic Forum with everyone who's going to work with the Antichrist someday and gave the Gospel gospel to them with the Shroud. And it's just opening so many doors for the gospel that I'm just trying to keep up with it. And I encourage people. Every shred of evidence for the resurrection of Jesus that we've studied in the Shroud is evidence for your own future resurrection. The promise we're given with more frequency than any other in the New Testament more than two dozen times is the promise of John 14:19, where Jesus says, because I live, you're going to live also. So there's an immediate payoff to everything Frank and I have been discussing. 1 Corinthians 15:58, I hope you'll leave this broadcast knowing. Therefore be strong. Be vigilant. We need strong believers like Frank. We need to be vigilant. Know always abounding in the work of the Lord because of the Resurrection, knowing that our labor in the Lord is not in vain. And that's why this conversation matters.
- [70:16]
A
Amen. We have one more question for Dr. Johnston. Don't go anywhere. I just do want to mention that if you're listening to this on Tuesday, we're at Louisiana Christian University. Tonight it'll also be live streamed. You can see it on our YouTube channel channel. And then we have this coming weekend, this Sunday, April 12th, we're going to be at King's Church in New York City. Forget about it. That's going to be in Manhattan, I think around 31st street, somewhere in there. You'll see the details on our website. Speaking there Sunday morning, my good friend David Engelhardt is the pastor there. Love that guy. And so we're going to be with him on the 12th, 13th, we're going to be at the, at the Make Heaven Crowded event at Regent University. And then the following week we'll be down there where Dr. Johnston is at the Faith Forward Pastor Summit. Details will be on our website. If you can't find them there. Go to TP USA for more about that. If you're a pastor, you want to be a part of that. And then Rob Schneider and I on April 27th will be here in Charlotte. Details will be on our website. And then we're going to be at the University of Tennessee, Tennessee. On the 30th of April, I'll tell you more about our new New Mexico trip. In May, we'll be at the University of New Mexico as well. So the Change My Mind tour in honor of Charlie Kirk continues. Thank you for your all your support there. Dr. Johnston, I gotta ask you this as, as we leave here and that is as you look at this evidence for the Shroud of Torrent, how does it personally affect you to see so much evidence and so much evidence of the suffering that the man in the shroud endured, knowing that given the probabilities, this almost certainly is the burial cloth of our Savior. How does this affect you personally?
- [72:13]
B
First you have to bring up to Rob Schneider the Shroud. Are you aware he's a fanatic of the Shroud?
- [72:19]
A
Oh yeah, I'll. I'm gonna send this podcast to him right away. He's gonna say to you, Dr. Jeremy, Dr. Jeremiah J. Johnston, you can do it.
- [72:28]
B
That's right.
- [72:29]
A
You can do it.
- [72:30]
B
So I just had to say that I forgot. Okay.
- [72:32]
A
Personally, how does it affect you? And then the second question is, if people want to see your kind of tour on this, how do they do that? So it takes my first two questions.
- [72:40]
B
It takes my breath away to understand the amount of love God has to for me. And it also takes my breath away to see how costly my sin is. Colossians 2:14 says that Jesus took all of my indebtedness. And there's a lot, Frank, you don't know me like God does. And he nailed it to the cross. And I don't bear that shame anymore. So it allows me to live in freedom. It allows me. I just acquired some 1st century Roman dice that we show in our exhibits. I'm not saying they're the dice that were used at Calvary, but they're made of bone and we can get so desensitized. This is why Jerry Bridges said we should preach the gospel to our hearts every single day. They're gambling for Jesus's clothes while the author of life is dying in front of them. I don't want to ever let my heart get callous to what Jesus did for me. No one is ever beyond the reach. It also shows me we can't quantify God's grace. It doesn't make sense how great God's grace is. That's how you know it's grace. It's too good to be true. We're bringing this shroud everywhere. So just follow me on social and just pray for me because you know, there's a lot of attack as well. So I want to continue to be as bold as I can for the resurrection of Christ.
- [73:49]
A
Give us your website so people can learn more and find out where the tour is going.
- [73:52]
B
Thank you, Frank. It's ChristianThinkers.com but truly cross examines all the place you need to go.
- [73:58]
A
Christianthinkers.com for this tour. You're going to want to see this and want to see what he is doing along. Along with my friend Dr. Doug Powell as well, who's also in this book. Yeah, yeah, he's into this. So thank you so much. Hopefully I'll see you when I'm in Prestonwood there.
- [74:14]
B
Frank, we're gonna have you at Prestonwood. It's gonna be packed. We all love you. We can't wait to. So come to Dallas in the summer where it's nice and hot and come here, Frank at Prestonwood soon.
- [74:23]
A
It's like living on the face of the sun.
- [74:25]
B
You can come over to my house and jump in the pool with me.
- [74:28]
A
All right. Sounds good, bro. Brother. All right, ladies and gentlemen, it's been great being with you. It's been great having Dr. Johnston on with us. Check him out at his website. Also, find him on social media. And don't forget, also, in addition to the college tour, we've got the online CIA happening. It's happening this month. I don't know if any seats are left, but go to crossexamine.org, click on online courses. You'll see it there. And you can also apply for the in person and CIA, which is going to be July 30th, 31st, and August 1st here in Charlotte. Great being with you. We'll see you here next time. God bless.