What Does the Bible REALLY Say About Israel? (And Why It Matters Now) with Pastor Robert Furrow

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "What Does the Bible REALLY Say About Israel? (And Why It Matters Now)"

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Pastor Robert Furrow (Calvary Chapel Tucson)
Date: March 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses pressing questions about the biblical role and future of Israel, especially in light of modern controversies and geopolitical events. Dr. Frank Turek and Pastor Robert Furrow explore scriptural passages to examine whether the modern state of Israel aligns with biblical Israel, if the church replaces Israel (“replacement theology”), and what the Bible says about end times prophecy regarding the Jewish people. The conversation aims to clarify confusion, reflect on historical and prophetic developments, and provide a biblical framework for understanding Israel’s significance today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Modern Israel and Old Testament Prophecy

• Return to Homeland as Prophecy Fulfilled

  • Robert Furrow kicks off with the unique restoration of Israel in 1948, noting it as a singular historical and prophetic event:

    “Israel is the only nation in history to return to its ancestral homeland and restore its sovereignty after nearly 2,000 years… That these are powerful things because they haven’t happened in any other place.” [03:00]

  • He connects the restoration of both the land and the Hebrew language (Zephaniah 3:9) to prophecy.

• Last Days: What Does It Mean?

  • Pastor Furrow explains that “the last days” biblically refer to the period starting with the church age (Acts 2, quoting Joel), moving toward “the latter days” and tribulation.
  • Warns against date-setting for Christ’s return, emphasizing readiness:

    “Stop setting dates, people… We don’t know when he’s going to return, so we have to be ready.” [04:29]

• Prophetic Ambiguity

  • Frank and Robert agree on the purposeful ambiguity in prophetic texts:

    “If we knew… Jesus was coming back in, say, 2034, we’d be going, ‘hey, we got time, right?’… I think he’s purposely leaving it ambiguous, so we don’t date set and we just always have to be ready.” [07:01 - Frank Turek]

Has the Church Replaced Israel? (Replacement Theology)

• Key Passages and Hermeneutic

  • The discussion critiques "replacement theology," focusing especially on Romans 9, 10, and 11.
  • Pastor Furrow:

    “Not all Israel is Israel… There’s people who are physical Israel who don’t love God and they’re not a part of spiritual Israel being saved in the very end. But to say that God’s not going to keep his promises to Israel… it just doesn’t make sense.” [11:15]

  • Furrow advocates a literal approach to Scripture, when context allows, arguing that God’s promises to Israel (land, restoration, spiritual renewal) remain for ethnic/national Israel.

• Dispensationalism vs. Covenant Theology

  • Furrow defends dispensationalism, noting that previous generations spiritualized prophecy because Israel did not exist as a nation. He rebuffs the charge that dispensationalism only began in the 1800s, pointing to early church variations but insisting biblical authority trumps church tradition.

    “We don’t do [derive doctrine from church fathers]. The Bible tells us that all scripture is given by inspiration of God… it can add to your argument, but it can never be your argument.” [18:08]

• Literal Land Promises

  • Discussion of the “land promise” from Genesis 15:18 (Nile to the Euphrates) clarifies that Israel has never fully realized these boundaries, even under David and Solomon.
  • Furrow asserts this will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom, referenced in prophetic books, during an era of peace. [21:03-21:59]

Prophecies about Scattering and Return

• Deuteronomy and Jesus’ Words

  • Furrow cites Deuteronomy 28:64 and 30:3 concerning God scattering Israel “among all people, from one end of the earth to the other” and then gathering them again.
  • Distinguishes between Babylonian exile (“local”) and global dispersion after 70 AD.
  • Connects this to Luke 21:24:

    “They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away captive into all nations… Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.” [25:45]

• Modern Implications & Islamic Eschatology

  • Discussion pivots to contemporary geopolitics—how Israel’s presence restrains certain Islamic eschatological goals (e.g., the push for a worldwide caliphate), and the danger posed by Iran’s nuclear ambitions. [30:13–31:55]

End Times Timelines & “Rapture”

• No Necessary Chronological Connection

  • Dr. Turek brings up Dr. Norman Geisler’s insight that there’s no “necessary connection” between the rapture and the tribulation; these could be separated by long intervals. [34:09–36:22]
  • Furrow agrees, underscores lack of precise prophetic timelines; Christians ought to focus on being ready for individual judgment.

• Application: Personal Readiness

  • Turek reminds listeners that “personal judgment” is a more certain event for every individual than the Second Coming timeline:

    “All of us are much more certain about when our personal judgment will come… be more concerned about that judgment than when Christ is going to come back.” [38:47]

Romans 9–11: Israel’s Present and Future

• Paul’s Distinction of Israel

  • Turek and Furrow both see Paul making a clear distinction between ethnic Israel and the church in Romans 9–11.
  • Turek:

    “There is no way you can say that the church replaced Israel, because if so, you’re disagreeing with Paul, who makes a point that unbelieving Israel still exists.” [40:08–41:11]

  • Furrow (on the olive tree analogy):

    “We are a wild olive branch that has been grafted on to the olive tree, which is Israel… We aren’t grafted onto a church. That’s not the tree. We’re grafted onto Israel.” [41:13]

• Promise of Final Restoration

  • Furrow notes Romans 11:26 (“all Israel will be saved”) implies a large future spiritual restoration of the Jewish people at the end of the age, paralleling Zechariah 12:10. [44:12]
  • Also references that the “mystery” regarding Israel’s regrafting and ultimate salvation is now revealed (Romans 11:25) [45:55].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prophecy Fulfillment:

  “Israel is the only nation in history to return to its ancestral homeland and restore its sovereignty after nearly 2,000 years… that these are powerful things because they haven’t happened in any other place.”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [03:00]

• On Date-Setting:

  “Stop setting dates, people. … We don’t know when he’s going to return, so we have to be ready.”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [04:29]

• On Replacement Theology:

  “If God’s not going to keep his promises to Israel… how could God change and say, ‘well, now you as the church are going to receive the promises that I promised Israel’? See? And it just doesn’t make sense.”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [12:50]

• On Dispensationalism:

  “All dispensationalism is, is ages… That’s the dispensation of the church. You will have one more dispensation which is the tribulation period…”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [15:16–15:40]

• On Romans 11 and the Olive Tree:

  “We are a wild olive branch that has been grafted on to the olive tree, which is Israel… And it goes on to say, don’t become too haughty because God could cut you off and graft back in the natural vine.”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [41:13]

• On Being Ready:

  “You and me, Robert, we’re in the fourth quarter of life, it’s going to come for us… be more concerned about that judgment than when Christ is going to come back. Is that a fair statement?”
  — Dr. Frank Turek [38:47]

• On Israel’s Future Restoration:

  “All Israel will be saved… it will be the vast majority of Israel that one day, as it says in Zechariah 12:10, I’ll pour out a spirit of grace and mercy on Jerusalem, and they will mourn for me as one mourns for an only son, when they look upon me whom they pierced…”
  — Pastor Robert Furrow [44:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:50] – Modern Israel’s restoration and Hebrew’s revival as prophecy
• [04:29] – Defining “last days” and the warning against date-setting
• [10:30] – Does the church replace Israel? Introduction to the replacement theology debate
• [13:26] – Analogy: Promises made must be kept to the original recipient
• [15:16] – What is dispensationalism? Overview of biblical ages
• [21:02] – Land promises: Genesis 15:18 and millennial fulfillment
• [25:45] – Deuteronomy and Jesus predicting scattering and gathering of Israel
• [31:55] – Israel’s modern role regarding Middle East security and prophecy
• [34:09] – “No necessary connection” between rapture and tribulation
• [38:47] – The certainty of personal judgment over prophetic speculation
• [41:13] – Romans 11 olive tree analogy: Gentiles grafted onto Israel
• [44:12] – Zechariah and the promise of all Israel being saved

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Additional Discussion Points & Future Topics

• The case for standing with modern Israel, even if its government is secular (to be continued in a midweek podcast).
• The practical and theological implications of God’s fidelity to His promises to Israel for Christians today.
• Pastor Furrow’s forthcoming book, "Difficult Passages in Revelation," mentioned throughout as addressing many related questions.

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Conclusion

Dr. Frank Turek and Pastor Robert Furrow present a thorough, scripturally-grounded case that:

• The modern state of Israel's existence is prophetically significant.
• The church does not replace Israel—God’s promises to Israel stand.
• Christians should understand biblical prophecy in its literal context while remaining wary of speculative date-setting.
• The unfolding of prophecy does not abrogate personal accountability and the certainty of individual judgment.

The episode closes with an invitation to continued discussion in a follow-up episode and encouragement to pray for upcoming campus events.

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Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, it seems like ever since my friend Charlie Kirk was murdered, there's been a lot of talk on the Internet, even by conservatives, about Israel. What is the deal with Israel? Is Israel really the same Israel that was in the Old Testament, that's in the Bible, the modern state? Is that an extension of what the Bible talks about? Is that modern state even part of what the Bible is talking about? Is there a future for Israel? Has the church replaced Israel? We're going to dive into the Bible today to talk about that because there's so much confusion and so many different perspectives on this. We're going to go into the Scriptures and examine what we can examine and try and draw some conclusions about this. And in order to do that, I have a very good friend of mine, Robert Furrow, who's been the pastor of Calvary Chapel, Tucson, for like a millennium, it seems almost. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, Robert Farrell. Robert, you're coming up. All right, enough for the audience. You're coming up on 50 years of being the pastor at Calvary Chapel, Tucson, Is that right?

[B]

Well, 4 to 41. This is. This. This next October will be 41.

[A]

Oh, but you've been a Christian for 50 years.

[B]

That's what I did for 50 years. Yeah.

[A]

I was just reading a chapter in the new book. This is the new book, won't be out till August, ladies and gentlemen. So we're not really selling the book at this point, but we want you to know about it.

[C]

It's called the Difficult passages in Revelation. Navigating the most challenging verses and topics with biblical clarity. And why don't we just start, Robert, if we could, with something unique that people just can't deny this about what happened in 1948 with regard to Israel.

[B]

You got.

[C]

You got something you want to say about that? Let's just start there and then we'll get into all these other questions related to Israel.

[B]

Yeah, and I think that's a good place to start. An overall picture is that the Bible says that God is going to displace the people of Israel, destroy the land, then restore the land and bring the nation of Israel back. So that's kind of the prophetic aspects that we find in the Old Testament Israel. I've got a little statement here. Israel is the only nation in history to return to its ancestral homeland and restore its sovereignty after nearly 2,000 years. Restoring a state, people and language, one of the clearest signs that we are living in the last days is Israel back in the land and all of that to being the only nation that that happened to, and it was foretold not one time, but many times in the Old Testament is really strong. I will talk to people who don't believe that. They don't believe the nation of Israel, that God has brought them back into the land. And, and they'll say it's just coincidence, it's coincidence that God said he's going to displace them. The land will be destroyed, become desolate, and then they will be restored. And then it happened exactly as God said it. But if it's the only nation that it has happened to, specifically their ancestral homeland, 2,000 years out of it, and God foretold it, there's got to be a strength there. And even the language being restored, Zephaniah3.9 says, for then I will restore to the people a pure language that they may call on my name of the name of the Lord to serve him with one accord. Now, the language, the Hebrew language disappeared except in religious settings. In other words, when they were doing rituals or they would do their seder, they would use some Hebrew in that. But we lost a lot of it. And then it was restored so that it is spoken by a nation today. Again, that's never happened where you had a language that was lost and then been restored. And God said it was going to happen, that these, these are powerful things because they haven't happened in any other place. They're not common things that take place. And God said that they were going to happen and they did.

[A]

Hey, let's talk a little bit about this concept of last days. Because there's one thing that everybody ought to agree on, and that is we don't date sake. It's easier for me to say date, date, set Christ's return because he himself said, nobody knows the day, the hour, the times or the season. I'm going to come like a thief in the night. So if somebody says, oh, I know he's coming at such and such a time, that's not the time he's coming. So when we say last days and

[C]

the Scriptures say last days, what does that mean?

[B]

Okay, so the last days in a large sense started with the church age on Pentecost. So Peter said on Pentecost in the book of Acts, Acts chapter two, that he quoted Joel in the last days I will no longer pour out. I'll pour out my spirit on all flesh. So there's a sense that the last days have been around for a long time. Then there's the latter days from. So there's the Last days in which God is moving now as he's going to move. Then there'll be the tribulation period where the Antichrist will come on, the temple will be rebuilt, and then there'll be the abomination of desolation. But the latter days is what we're looking at now. And as far as people setting dates, people got to stop. This is what I always say all the time. Stop setting dates, people. I've heard people say, the Bible says no one knows the day or the hour, but you can know the two days. And so it's the Feast of Trumpets, because you can know the two days. As if that's what Jesus was saying. No man knows the day or the hour, Jesus said, except you can know those two days. He was obviously saying, we don't know when he's going to return, so we have to be ready. The Bible says Jesus is returning for those who eagerly wait for him. So we need to eagerly wait for him. The early church had Maranatha come quickly. Lord Jesus. They had a sense they wanted Jesus to return. They loved Jesus and the, the, the and heaven more than they loved the world, which really corresponds to Babylon. The world is a continuation of what Babylon is and what Babylon will become in the Book of Revelation. But sometimes I think it's very dangerous for us to. To love this world, to be so materialistic, to think that we belong to this world instead of being sojourners in this world.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that just as Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 2, about Christ's first coming, that these things were hidden because if the dark forces of this world knew what Christ was doing, they never would have crucified the Lord of glory. In other words, the Old Testament prophecies can only really be put together in a coherent way and be understood clearly

[C]

after you get the old or the.

[A]

The events of the New Testament. Because if they were telegraphed too much,

[C]

Satan never would have instigated the death of Jesus. I also think that the second coming to a certain extent, as Christ said, you know, no one knows the day, the hour, the times, or the season is veiled for a reason, it seems to me, Robert, because if we knew, say, Jesus was coming back in, say, 2034, we'd be going, hey, we got time, right?

[B]

That's right.

[C]

I'm going to live like I want to live. And I'll run up the credit cards at the end of the day of 2033.

[A]

I'll repent.

[C]

And then Jesus will come. I think he's purposely leaving it ambiguous. So we don't date set and we just always have to be ready.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[C]

You agree with that?

[B]

Jesus. Jesus said to. As he's coming down the Mount of Olives and he's weeping, he says, because you didn't know the day of your visitation. Daniel 9 gives us a distinct time that the Messiah will come to the first time before the destruction of the temple. Yes, and it's pretty clear there. It's interesting. In the Old Testament, you don't have anyone being any demons being exercised. You have some demons influencing people like Saul and others, but you don't find demons working the way they did around Galilee in the days of Jesus, Galilee and Jerusalem and there, I think the enemy. And when they approached Jesus, they said, I know who you are. And he told them to be quiet and he wouldn't let him speak because they said things like that. So it's just. It is interesting to me that there was such demonic activity around Galilee. When it says that naphtali, O Galilee, a great light will come to you. So it's as if Satan did kind of know that something was happening there. And I don't think he knew. I think he was looking to destroy Jesus. That's what he came to destroy Jesus. Like you said, a lot of it was veiled. And when you look at it from 2020 hindsight, it's like, wow, Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, it's all right there, right? But unless you have that 2020 hindsight, you don't see it that clearly.

[A]

Hey, let's clear up one thing before we go to break, and that is that it seems to say that Jesus is going to come back soon. This is in the book of Revelation. I'm sure this is unpacked in your. In your forthcoming book. It's been 2,000 years, Pastor.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

How is this soon explained?

[B]

Okay, so the word soon there is tacos in the Greek, and we get our word tachometer from it. So the tachometer doesn't tell you how fast you're going. It tells you how fast the engine is revving. And so what he's saying is, I'm coming speedily. And some translations even translate it that way, meaning when these things start, they will happen rapidly. Jesus said, when you see these things start, look up, your redemption draws nigh. So they're happening rapidly. It goes on in Revelation, chapter one to say that the time is near. And this is prophetic language. Like in the Old Testament, prophets often said the Day of the Lord is at hand. The day of the Lord hasn't happened yet. That was the Old Testament. But it was a prophetic language to say you've got to be ready because the day of the Lord could happen at any moment. So it wasn't saying it was going to happen instantly or within a lifetime of Jesus, as some tried to say

[A]

Much more with Pastor Rob Robert Furrow, by the way, does the church replace Israel?

[C]

We're going to get into that as well on I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

[A]

We got a lot more with Pastor Robert Fur. Don't go anywhere.

[C]

Back after the break.

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, there's a lot of talk on the Internet about Israel. We're looking at the Bible's perspective on it, at least how we interpret the passages here. We know there are different interpretations of this, but we want to put our best foot forward with Pastor Robert Furrow to look at some of the passages related to Israel in the Bible. And the question we're going to deal

[C]

with here in this segment is does the church replace Israel, which would mean

[A]

that the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with the Bible and there is no future for Israel.

[C]

The land promises that were made in the Old Testament where it says that land's going to be given to them forever, that doesn't really mean forever and the church is now taken over.

[A]

Pastor Robert Furrow, what do you say

[C]

about that, that the CH that some people are saying the church replaces Israel? Let's, let's start with maybe the best argument that church replacement folks say replaces Israel.

[B]

Well, they'll usually go to Romans chapter 9, where it says that not all Israel is Israel.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And from there they'll say, so that means that the church is Israel. So they're tying that in. But that passage is not saying that. It doesn't say that. When you go back and read it, it's like me saying today, not all Christians are Christians. And you and I know that not everybody who says they're Christians. Jesus said not everybody who says to me, lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, and not all Christians are Christians is the same as not all Israel is Israel. There's people who are physical Israel who don't love God and they're not a part of spiritual Israel being saved in the very end. But to say that God's not going to keep his promises to Israel. So God made a lot of promises to them. He's going to restore them into the land. He will not forget them. He Said, I've carved you on the palms of my hands. I will not forget you. My people, if a mother can forget her child in her womb, I will not forget you. And then for people to start to say, well, God took the promises he made to Israel and now applies them to the Church. I can almost see it again with someone living in the 1700s. Israel's not a nation. It's not even beginning to be a nation. Israel scattered around the world. And here in Revelation, in Zachariah, all these Daniel, you've got Israel in the center of the last days. I'm going to make Jerusalem a heavy stone around the neck of the world. The day of the Lord is a day of Jacob's trouble. Jacob is another name for Israel. So they kind of went, well, what do we do with this? So when he's talking about that, he's talking about the church, that's where they went to. And they have to not be literal in order to do that. I believe the best hermeneutic and hermeneutic is the art of studying Scripture. I believe the best hermeneutic is to take it as literal as possible. We know you can't take everything super literal, but to take it as literal as possible. But if you have. I like to use this analogy. If you have two girls and you promise one of your girls a bowl of ice cream, and you come out and you say, I'm not going to give it to you because you are bad, but I'm going to give it to your sister, how's that going to work out for you?

[A]

You promised it to the first one, and then you give it to the second one.

[B]

You give it to the second one. Yeah. Also, if you were to take out a loan at Wells Fargo, you make a promissory note with them and then you pay it back to Chase. Is there going to be any. So they would say, that's wrong. You've got to keep it with who you kept the promise with. So God made promises to Israel. And if God said, I won't forget you, my people, I'm going to restore you in the land, and I'm going to restore you spiritually, pouring out grace and mercy on you, then how could God change and say, well, now you as the church, are going to receive the promises that I promised Israel. See? And it just doesn't make sense. I understand theologically how they got there, because we're living in a day when Israel's back in the land and so we can go all these Old Testament, all These end of the world passages that talk about the nation of Israel being around, we go, well, they're here. But until 1948 they weren't. And so that's why you came up with covenant theology. Replacement theology really developed.

[A]

You know what's interesting? You just made me think of something a lot of times, and this is true a lot of times who hold a dispensational view. People that hold a dispensational view are accused of having the Bible in one hand and a newspaper or now the Internet in the other, trying to marry these two up. But it seems like you're saying that prior to Israel coming into the land, that same thing was going on, despite the fact there are clear promises that Israel would be at the end days or would be restored and that those land promises are forever. Since Israel wasn't in the land, people started to spiritualize those passages based on current events. They said, well, Israel's not in there, so the Bible must be saying something different than what it actually says.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. Dispensationalism has definitely fallen out of favor in, in these days were called dispies. A person who I really like made a reference, I'm watching and she's like, yeah, the dispies that are out there, all dispensationalism is, is ages. So we believe that God worked with in the anti diluvian period. We believe that God worked before Abraham. We believe that God worked from between Abraham and Moses. Then Moses gave the law. There was a long section where the law was being moved. Jesus completed the law. Moses opened the book on the law. Jesus completed the law by closing the book on the law to where now we are no longer under it and we're in the church age. That's the dispensation of the church. You will have one more dispensation which is the tribulation period, which Jesus said, there's a time coming that's worse than anything this world will ever see or anything that's ever going to happen to it. And he spoke of the abomination of desolation that some people try to say was Antichaeus Epiphanies under the Maccabean revolt. But Jesus said it is going to happen in the future and that hasn't happened yet. So we still have that day. And Paul talked in second Thessalonians about the man of sin being revealed and he's revealed in the tribulation period during that time. So we're still looking for The Antichrist. And we're not looking for him because Jesus said when these things happen, look up. So dispensationalists, I believe dispensationalism is very biblical. The attack is often that there was a guy by the name of Darby who went to visit Margaret McDonald who was a demon possessed girl. He got dispensationalism from her that went into the Scofield Bible. That's why dispensationalism blew up.

[A]

But that they would say that that started in the 1800s, 1880. Okay, now what's your response to that?

[B]

Well, that, that first of all, Margaret McDonald actually didn't have a pre tribulation view. Her view was on the other team. I like to tell people that tell me that she got it from our McDonald. She's on your team, not ours. And the, the, the fact that many church fathers believed, I'm going to say many, some church fathers believed exactly how we believe that, that Jesus is going to come back, then there's going to be a tribulation period. They might have thought it was three and a half years. But remember, there are many things church fathers believe that were wrong. That's why we had a reformation. So if you go back to the early church fathers to try to develop your doctrine, you're in trouble because you're going to be looking at a lot of different things. We don't do that. Right. The Bible tells us that all scriptures given by the inspiration of God is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine, that the man of God could be thoroughly equipped, knocking in nothing, not church history. It can add to your argument, but it can never be your argument.

[A]

Yeah, it almost seems like you're taking a Catholic approach if you're going to say that. Well, the church father said this, so therefore it must be true. Although to be fair, Roman Catholics theologians will probably say, and obviously I haven't talked to all of them, but will probably say if there's a conflict between say church fathers and the Scriptures, you still have to go with the scriptures. But let's not go down that rabbit trail right now.

[B]

I was gonna say, but.

[A]

But yeah, yeah, yeah. Some, some might say the opposite in any event, isn't it.

[B]

They use tradition a lot. So tradition to, to Catholic is this highest scripture. They have Christ, they have, you know, risen from the dead, they have the virgin birth, they have everything they need. They just do a lot of weird, of, of strange things because they put tradition as high as scripture when we don't.

[A]

Is it possible that Some of the early church fathers wouldn't have thought that the dispensational view that Israel was a literal going to be a literal nation again, that they ran into the same problem somebody in 1500 ran into. Israel was destroyed in 70 A.D. so these church fathers after that are going, well, maybe, maybe Israel isn't going to be literal. Maybe there's not going to be a literal Israel in the future.

[B]

Yeah, there's no temple. There was another, there was another revolt in 125 where the Jews were totally put down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they were put down and the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. then in 125 there was another one. But yes, these early church fathers, when you're talking about Irenaeus and some of the other ones, they have the same thing. Israel's not. They're in captivity. Many of them were killed. Many of them were crucified at the destruction of Jerusalem. And that's the same, the same problem that people had say during World War II when the Jews are just dispersed and they don't have a homeland.

[A]

Now, the homeland promised in the text, it starts with Abraham. Maybe we can go through a few of those passages. Robert extended from basically most will say the Nile river all the way to the Euphrates, which today would include parts of Egypt, the Sinai Peninsula, all of Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, Jordan, up into Iraq, maybe even some parts of Saudi Arabia and Iran. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a lot of land. In fact, I think Winston Churchill, when he drew up the modern state of Israel initially right after World War I, it included much of that land. It later got whittled down, but.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That land was promised to Israel where in the scriptures.

[B]

Well, I'm not sure exactly where that, that sighting is, that that section of land is promised to them. But God does tell them that he's going to give them from the Euphrates river to the, to the, to the, the Nile, the great sea.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's okay. It's a large section, but I'm not sure exactly where that's at. But that's never been realized. Even under David and Solomon, where they had the most land, it was never realized. We look at that and say that will be realized. In the millennial kingdom when we have the lion laying down with the, with a calf, the wolf laying down with the lamb, the child plays by the cobra's hole and there's peace on earth, it says men will walk in peace. The purpose of government according to the Bible is to make peace. And government doesn't they don't do that. I don't feel safety when I'm walking down certain streets in Tucson. I don't know if you feel really safe all the time where you are, but the government doesn't do a good job of that. Jesus. Well, because he's going to rule with a rod of iron. And during that millennium period, I think that, that Israel will have that land during that time and Jesus will be showing us what real government was supposed to be like.

[A]

Yeah. It seems like the passage that I'm thinking of. Let me make sure I have this passage right.

[C]

It's Genesis 15:18. To your descendants, I give this land

[A]

from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That river of Egypt would seem to be. That would seem to be probably the

[B]

Nile river, the whole east side of Egypt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, we're going to unpack this further right after the break.

[A]

We're talking to Pastor Robert Farrow.

[C]

He's got a book coming out in August called the Difficult Passages in Revelation. We're talking about Israel today. Is the modern state of Israel the same state that deserves the land promises that the Bible talks about? Or, or has that state been replaced by the church? We're talking about issues like that. So don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with me, Frank Turek back right after the break.

[D]

Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe. And Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating [e-mail] that's cross examine with a D on the end.org Foreign

[A]

ladies and gentlemen, today we're talking about what the Bible says about Israel. Is Israel being replaced by the church or was it replaced by the church? We're making the case here. No. There is a future for Israel. Does the modern state of Israel have anything to do with that? We're talking about that right now. We're also going to now talk about this idea that God predicted that he would scatter the Israelites across the world into all the nations, but then bring them back. Pastor Robert Furrow is my guest. He is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Tucson. He's been doing a lot of hard work out there. I've preached out there at your church, Robert, and people don't know this who don't go to your church, but man, you're working hard. You have two campuses and you go back and forth between the two of them every Sunday. And you must know the police in Tucson because you have to, you have to go pretty quickly to get from one campus to the other.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's been, it's been God's. I haven't got a ticket, so that's good. And I want to have a law of reasonable and prudent here so you can go over the speed limit. It just has to be reasonable and prudent.

[A]

Reasonable and prudent, yeah. You're the spirit of the law. Not the letter of the law, but the point. You're, you're. I love your church because you've got, you've got a church that's very diverse economically. It's interesting. You've got white collar, but blue collar as well. And they all. It's just one big church of believers who love one another. So I love the spirit of your church.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Let's talk a little bit about this idea that the Lord predicts in several places in the Old Testament, even in, even in the writings of Moses, way back in Deuteronomy, that he's going to scatter the Israelites all over the nations. What are those passages?

[B]

Well, there's Deuteronomy 28:64. So Deuteronomy is the second law. He's giving the law to the new generation. Remember, the first generation is scattered in the wilderness. The new generation is ready to go in. He encourages Joshua. Then he's giving them the new law. So in Deuteronomy. Or he's giving them the law the second time to this new generation. So in Deuteronomy 28:64, he says, the Lord will scatter you among all people. The all people there is really important. For from one end of the earth to another, that's really important as well. He's going to scatter you among all people from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which you neither, which neither you nor your fathers have known of wood and stone. Now the question is, does the exile right of Babylon? Because there's three exiles. You have a divided nation of Israel, divided under Rehoboam, Solomon's son, where you've got the northern kingdoms of Israel and the southern kingdoms of Judah and Benjamin was there. And the 10 tribes were taken captive before the Babylonians and taken by Assyria into captivity. And they never really returned. Certainly people made their way back. And people left from the ten tribes and went up to Hezekiah in Jerusalem. That expanded the walls to take the people of Israel while they were being surrounded. And while it's just like today, you've got to have your army get into place. They knew something was happening, and so they moved to Jerusalem. So there were. There were. All the 12 tribes were set up in Jerusalem, just not the same number. So then there's the exile of Babylon, where they're removed to Babylon. That is basically a local exile. People did eventually make their way from Babylon up into Europe. You got Aquila and Priscilla that are around with Paul. That's before the destruction of the Temple. So they. Jews did make their way around the world, but not to the level that it says here. Not scattering them from one end of the earth to another. And among all people, that happened after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. and Jesus talked about this in. In Luke 21, Jesus said, that's funny. I just had it. Okay, so, yeah, Luke 21:24, and they will fall by the edge of the sword. This is him coming down the Mount of Olives. He's weeping over Jerusalem. He says, how I've longed to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks, and you would not. And then he says, and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away captive into all nations. That's the same language that Moses used in Deuteronomy. They will go into all nations and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So Jerusalem will once again have Jews that are trampling it rather than Gentiles who are trampling it. That's what is happening today. And it happened in 1973, and it's happening even more as time goes on. There are many in Jordan that feel that Jerusalem is encroaching more and more upon the Temple period that Jordan is in control of. Israel took control of all of Jerusalem in 73, but gave back the Temple Mount to Jordan. So Jordan controls the Temple Mount today. So we could say the Temple Mount is controlled by Islam.

[A]

Yeah, at this point, it is. Also, you mentioned Deuteronomy 28, Deuteronomy 30, just a couple of chapters later, says, the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and gather you again from all the nations where the Lord your God has Scattered you. And so it seems that, as you say, the exile in 586 BC of the southern kingdom was local. They did come back after Cyrus in 539 B.C. allowed them to come back into the land. And that's where that famous prophecy that Christians often take in and out of context. Oh, the plans I have you. Plans to prosper you, plans to give you hope in a future. You know, Jeremiah 29:11.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That was the promise to those people that would come back into the land 70 years later. But they just went to Babylon.

[C]

They wouldn't. Weren't scattered all over the world, as Deuteronomy 28 and 30 say.

[B]

Yeah, and I think 30 is important because it says, I will bring them back from all around the world.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So God's promising there would be a moment like Jesus who said, jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

[A]

Yes. So they come back into the land then in 1948, and they don't take all the land. It's a very small piece of the land that was promised to them from basically the Nile to the Euphrates. But they are in the land. By the way, I had Bill Federer on the show a couple of weeks ago. Robert. I know you know of him, he's a brilliant historian. And he was saying his view anyway is the fact that Israel in the land where they are now, is really holding back the Muslim desire for a worldwide caliphate. Because if Israel goes down, he said he thought that you were going to see jihad on steroids. Muslims are going to think, oh, this is the caliphate. We're going to be able to bring it back now. Which of course translates into the current situation with Iran and Israel, that Israel and the United States are saying, we cannot allow these people to get a nuclear weapon, because if they do get a nuclear weapon, they will use it. Because they think that if they, the Shia side of Islam, they think that if, if, if they can start a world war, the caliphate's going to come back and they're going to take over the entire world. So from just a practical perspective at this point and a theological perspective of the Shia Muslims, this is playing right into the idea that if Iran gets a nuclear weapon and, and Israel goes down, the worldwide caliphate will begin. And doesn't Israel, by the way, have to be in the land in order for all the nations to gather in the. The valley of Jezreel or the Armageddon Valley in order to have the final battle? What does that presuppose Israel's back in the land.

[B]

Yeah, but remember, by that time, the Antichrist has kind of taken over Jerusalem and the battle of Armageddon. They gather in Armageddon and they march on Jerusalem. But going, going back to Israel being kind of this kind of stopping things from happening in the region. So the Bible says that Israel when, when Gog and Magog come against them. This is in Ezekiel 38.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It says that God that got to put a hook in Gog's mouth, who's a leader. Gog is a leader. And he will bring them down against Israel to a people who dwell in safety. We haven't had Israel dwell in safety yet. And after the October 7th happened, I talked to Joel Rosenberg, who's a friend of mine. Y. And you know who Joel is?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And, and Joel said, we are, we are believing that we're going to respond in such a way that this is going to make safety, that we're going to be in safety, and that those passages can finally be fulfilled because they hadn't dwelt in safety. And after. Hamas is own is just a, a proxy of Iran, of course, so is Hezbollah. So was the Houthis.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so they needed to go and take care of the threat of Iran that's arming all of these people. And maybe, and hopefully this will be a quick war. Hopefully it won't drag on like Iraq and, and Afghanistan. But maybe it really allows them to be able to live in peace. And then living in peace, we would have the return of Jesus, the Gog and Magog war and so on.

[A]

But we don't know when that's going to happen, friends. Yeah, but you're just saying, according to scripture, it would seem like those things would, would need to happen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Unless. And this is my co. My co author, my mentor, Dr. Norman Geiser, used to say this. I never thought of this until he said it. I don't know what your thought is. He said that, you know, there's no necessary connection between the, the Rapture, which is a dispensational view, and the tribulation. In other words, the Rapture could occur and the tribulation could occur 120, 100, 200 years later. Right. That's possible. Or before what, what could happen before?

[B]

Like, okay, so you would have, you could have the tribulation period, but the Rapture would happen before, like maybe 100 years before the tribulation.

[A]

That's what I mean. That's, that's what he was saying.

[B]

Yeah. You said after, but. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[B]

yeah.

[A]

There's no necessary connection between Jesus coming back. In other words, according to this dispensational view, you don't have to have Israel in peace for Jesus to, to take the church out. In other words, yes, it, it, it, it could happen today, but.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But for the tribulation period, you need certain things to happen.

[B]

And the only passage that talk, maybe talk a little bit about that is second Thessalonians, where Paul says, don't be soon to served, as if there's letters coming from us that the day of the Lord has happened. So the Thessalonians thought they were living in the tribulation period. And then he says, for that day will not come unless there's a falling away and the man of sin will be revealed. It's not saying the man of sin has to come first. The falling away has to come first.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This falling away by theologians is thought to be two things. Number one, maybe what we've seen in our day, where Christians start falling away. So how many authors and musicians have we seen walk away from the Lord? The word is apostasia there. And it's translated fallen away. It could be that's a reference to the Rapture as well. The falling away must happen first, and then the man of sin will be revealed. So the first thing that happens when the seal is torn in Revelation from the scroll, which is the title deed of the Earth, is that the Antichrist comes on the scene. A white horse with a bow and a wreath, a perishing crown. When Jesus returns at the end, he returns on a white horse with crowns, diadems, real crowns, ruling. So that's the only passage that might make us think they're somehow connected. But still, you could have the falling away, then time pass, and then the man of sin being revealed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Never says it has to happen at the same time.

[A]

And Jesus could come back at any point. He could come back now. And then the falling away, I mean, come back in the sense that if the Rapture view is correct, that the church is taken out, there's more falling away. I'd have to think this through. Geisler's main point. Geisler's main point is there's no necessary connection between the Rapture and the tribulation.

[B]

Right. There could be at different times. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And a lot more. With Pastor Robert Fur. I want to mention that this week or next. This coming week, we're going to be at Colorado Mesa States United University on Tuesday night. Then on Thursday night, we're going back to, to Utah Valley University where Charlie was murdered. I need you to pray for that event. I don't know how it's gonna go, but it's going to be Thursday night, March 26th.

[C]

Please pray for that event. And we're back in just a couple of minutes.

[A]

Don't go anywhere. Ladies and gentlemen, we're back talking to my friend Robert Furrow about Israel. And what I inarticulately was trying to say in the last segment was the idea that there's nothing on the prophetic calendar that needs to happen if the dispens, if the dispensational view is true. There's nothing on the prophetic calendar that needs to happen for Jesus to take out his church. You don't need wars and rumors of wars. You don't need an apostasy to happen. You just need Jesus to come back at any point to take out his church. Then the tribulation can occur either very soon or it could be many years later. That was the point that my mentor, Dr. Norman Geisler made, and that was his view, the dispensational view, that there would be a rapture. But there's no necessary connection between Jesus coming to take his church out and all the events we read about with regard to the tribulation. Do you agree with that, Pastor?

[B]

Yeah, I do agree with that. So there's no necessary connection. I used Norman Geisler's systematic theology, by the way, for years. So that was, that's what I studied from.

[A]

It's right here. It's right behind me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I don't know whether there, there's nothing that would state how long it would be. So that's, that's important for us to understand.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, their last days events, but we don't know. They don't need to be one happening and then the second starting.

[A]

You know what? One point I like to make with people too. This is all very interesting and that's the reason we're having this program. And you point out, by the way, in this book, the difficult passage in Revelation, that it's important to read Revelation. You're blessed. There's so many blessings about reading it. Maybe we can get into that a little bit later.

[B]

Yeah, no, I would love to.

[A]

Yeah. But my main point to people who are studying this, keep studying it, but realize that all of us are much more certain about when our personal judgment will come. Because you and me, Robert, we're in the fourth quarter of life, it's going to come for us. It could come for us any minute. It could come in the next couple of decades. And the same thing is true for people listening and watching us right now. In the next several decades, you're going to be personally judged so you know that with more certainty than when Christ is going to come back and judge everything. So be more concerned about that judgment than when Christ is going to come back. Is that a fair statement?

[B]

No. Really a fair statement and important.

[A]

Yes. But I want to go back because we haven't covered this adequately yet. Romans 9, 10 and 11, I think, clearly refute the idea that the church replaces Israel. Let me just read from Romans 9: briefly, and then I want to go to you for Romans 11 on this.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because Romans 9 is talking about Israel's past, Romans 10 is talking about Israel's present, and Romans 11 is talking about Israel's future. And Paul takes a great detour in the book of Romans to do this. He could have easily gone from chapter 8 to chapter 12 and kept Israel

[C]

out of it completely, but he didn't in his great theological treatise, because Israel still exists. And here's what he says in the very first couple of verses of chapter nine. I am speaking the truth in Christ. I'm not lying. My conscience bears witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart, for I wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen. By race they are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs. And he goes on to say all this. He's saying that Israel still exists. And then in Romans 11, he points out that Israel has a future. So there is no way you can say that the church replaced Israel, because if so, you're disagreeing with Paul, who makes a point that unbelieving Israel still exists. They're ethnic, they're a race. And then he really brings the hammer down in chapter 11. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the olive tree situation there, Pastor.

[B]

Yeah, I would like to go to. To the end of chapter nine first as well.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because at the end of chapter nine, he says, what are we saying then? That the Jews that have the law didn't find salvation? Yes, because they didn't come by faith. And then he says, but the Gentiles who didn't have the law found salvation yes, because they came by faith. So whether you're Jewish or Gentile, you've got to have faith in Christ to be saved. The salvation is the same now. Israel is not. Some people disagree because they think Israel's back in the land. And we're saying they don't need to become Christians. They don't need the blood of Christ to be forgiven. No, we're one new humanity according to Ephesians. And everybody has to be saved the exact same way. We just believe God's going to fulfill his promises he made to Israel by bringing them back into the land. So Romans 11, he gets to Romans 11 and he starts talking about this olive tree analogy. He tells us as Gentiles, not to be arrogant, because we are a wild olive branch that has been grafted on to the olive tree, which is Israel. God removed some of the branches of Israel and grafted us on. But we aren't grafted onto a church. That's not the tree. We're grafted onto Israel. That's why we are Judeo Christianity. Our foundations is in Judaism, and we're grafted onto it. And. And it goes on to say, don't become too haughty because God could cut you off and graft back in the natural vine. And if you as a wild branch have been grafted on so easily, how much quicker can God graft on the natural branches? If you as a wild branch have been grafted on, wild branches can be grafted on much more. So that is not a new olive tree. It's Israel and the restoration of Israel. And then at the end of our beginning of Romans 11:1,2, it says, I say, then has God cast off his people? Certainly not. That's important. God hasn't cast off his people. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, the tribe of Benjamin. He knew what tribe he was from. But God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. God knew everything would happen and he has not cast away his people. Later on, in Romans 11, 24, 25, it says, and all of Israel will be saved. And then he ends the chapter by rejoicing. Praise be to glory and God and for all that's happening. So when it says all Israel will be saved, some people say, well, all doesn't necessarily mean all. All the time. When the UFA Wildcats won the national championship, I think it was in 97, you could say all of Tucson was excited that the Wildcats won. But there were some people who weren't. All might not mean all, but it can never mean a few. So when it says all of Israel will be saved, it will be the vast majority of Israel that one day, as it says in Zechariah 12:10, I'll pour out a spirit of grace and mercy on Jerusalem, and they will mourn for me as one mourns for an only son, when they look upon me whom they pierced. So that's both of those. Speak of that restoration nation, could it

[A]

mean all at that time, who see that God has poured out this grace and supplication, that they all do come to faith? I mean, that's certainly possible.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's a huge number of Jews that will. All of a sudden, when the Antichrist does his thing, they're gonna go, what a mistake we made. And in the book of Revelation, God takes them and protects them in the wilderness. They have a supernatural protection until the end of the tribulation period, when God will go up and gather them from the four corners and bring them in, because they go through the tribulation period because they're not believers. But when they become believers as Jews, they are sealed. 144,000 are sealed, and God protects them supernaturally.

[A]

And there's a lot more in the forthcoming book. This doesn't come out until August, but it's called Difficult Passages in Revelation. So you can probably pre order that now.

[B]

Yeah, you can pre order it now.

[A]

Yeah. There's so much more on this.

[C]

But

[A]

the fact that Israel is in Romans 9, 10 and 11, talked about distinctly from believers, shows you that Israel still exists and Israel still has a future. In fact, he even says this. I gotta find this passage here. It's from Romans 11. He says, 1128, he says, as regards the Gospel, they, meaning Israel, are enemies of God for your sake, but as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs or the forefathers. Now, in this case, he's talking about the election of the nation of Israel, not election to people, to salvation, because it couldn't be election to salvation if it was. They wouldn't be enemies of God, they wouldn't be enemies of the Gospel. Right?

[B]

So, and just a couple verses before that, it says, want you to be ignorant of the mystery concerning Israel. So there's a mystery. And a biblical mystery is not something that can't be known, it's something that has been revealed. It was a mystery at one point, but that mystery has now been revealed. And Paul a few times says, I don't want you to be ignorant of the mystery. One of Them is there when it comes to the nation of Israel being regrafted onto the vine.

[A]

Yeah. There's so much in the Scriptures, particularly 9, 10, 11, Romans 9, 10, 11. I just don't understand how people can read that and come away with thinking that Israel's now gone and the church completely replaces Israel. What, what, what other arguments could they give for that, Robert? What, why, how do, why do people say that?

[B]

It just. I think it's a theological bias. So when I look, I've got a book now on covenant theology that I'm listening to. I'm driving. While I'm driving, I'm listening to it, okay? And I haven't heard any good biblical arguments towards it. I've heard them criticize the way we interpret the scriptures. They do it in a much more metaphorical way. We do it in a much more literal way. That's the criticism that they have with us. But they aren't going to come back to these scriptures and try to make the argument. They're going to go earlier in Romans 9, where it says, not all Israel is Israel, and therefore, you know, we are Israel who are the church. But that's not what that's saying there. When you go back and you read it, not all Israel is Israel. That means some in Israel are not real Israel. It does have anything to do with the church being Israel now, which is what they try to make the statement that the church has become Israel. No, we've been grafted on the vine, but we're one new humanity again. Ephesians, chapter 2. God did something incredible by making us one new man. We're among Jews and Gentiles that are now one body. Well, one new people, a holy generation.

[A]

Let's do this, Robert. Let's extend this into a midweek podcast, if we could, because I still want to cover questions such as, well, the current government, obviously, of Israel. They're not believing Christians. They're not messianic. Why would anybody say we need to bless them? And what does bless them Israel even mean? Let's cover. Let's cover that in the. In the next. In the next show. And there's several other questions we want to get into. If God has kept his promises to Israel or doesn't keep his promises to Israel, what does that mean to us today? If God fails to keep his promises to Israel, what does that mean for us? So let's reconvene and do another podcast, and we'll play during midweek if we can, because there's so much more to this topic. And friends, if you want to pre order this, it's going to be a very helpful book. It's called the Difficult Passages in Revelation. So please do that. Don't forget, please pray for these events. Coming up, we're going to be at Colorado Christian University, or I should say Colorado Mesa University, on Tuesday night and

[C]

then on Thursday night, Lord willing, at Utah Valley University, where Charlie was murdered. You can join us online to see that. Lord willing. We'll see you here next time.

[B]

God bless.

[D]

Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give [e-mail].