Whom Shall I Fear? Examining Courage in the Christian Faith with Heidi St. John

Summary

Podcast Summary: I Don’t Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST

Episode: Whom Shall I Fear? Examining Courage in the Christian Faith with Heidi St. John

Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Heidi St. John
Date: October 14, 2025

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this engaging episode, Dr. Frank Turek invites author, speaker, and homeschooling advocate Heidi St. John to explore the biblical and practical dimensions of courage—particularly within the Christian faith. They delve into how to instill courage in oneself, one’s children, and the next generation in a culture increasingly hostile to Christian values. Drawing from Scripture, personal testimony, and cultural analysis, the episode underscores the importance of faith-driven bravery, the proper “fear of the Lord,” the redemptive role of suffering, and the active engagement of Christians in parenting, culture, and even politics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Nature and Source of Courage

• Courage as Foundational:
  • “Aristotle said, courage is the first of human qualities because it is the quality which guarantees the others.” (Frank Turek, 00:03)
  • Courage is not the absence of fear but the willingness to do what is right in the face of fear.
• Biblical Admonitions:
  • Both the Old and New Testaments emphasize courage (referencing Deuteronomy, the Psalms, Acts 4, 2 Timothy).

2. Instilling Courage in Children

• Modeled Behavior:
  • "You can't pass on what you don't possess." (Heidi St. John, 03:55)
  • Parents must demonstrate courage themselves if they hope to raise courageous children.
• The Role of Obedience and Trust:
  • Courage comes from trusting God and recognizing that one's days belong to Him.
• Anecdote:
  • Heidi shares her grandmother’s wisdom: “You can do anything if you’ll do it afraid.” (Heidi, 03:55)

3. The Fear of the Lord: Reverence, Not Terror

• Misconceptions About Divine Fear:
  • Some Christians believe post-salvation, there’s nothing left to fear from God.
  • Heidi argues this view reflects a lack of understanding of God's holiness.
• Healthy Reverence:
  • “We really have…lost the awe of God.” (Heidi, 08:39)
  • God’s discipline is an ongoing form of loving correction.

4. Suffering and Spiritual Growth

• Trial as Refinement:
  • Suffering draws believers closer to God and fosters dependence.
  • Heidi testifies about her cancer diagnosis and subsequent surgery, which brought her greater appreciation for God's faithfulness (14:05-17:41).
• The Theology of Suffering:
  • Both agree the evangelical community often lacks a robust theology of suffering.
  • Suffering should not lead to deconstruction of faith but deeper trust.

5. Practical Parenting and Cultural Courage

• Honest Parenting:
  • No topic is off-limits at the St. John house. Children should feel free to discuss any issue, including difficult cultural topics (34:17).
  • Younger children are encountering cultural challenges at earlier ages, necessitating earlier and more direct conversations.
• Culture’s Hostility:
  • Today’s culture incentivizes renouncing Christianity for social acceptance; thus, courage is required to stand firm.

6. Encouraging Biblical Literacy and Discernment

• Anchoring in Scripture:
  • Always return to the Word of God when facing questions or cultural confusion.
• Modeling Obedience and Honest Inquiry:
  • It’s okay for parents to admit when they don’t know an answer but must model seeking truth in Scripture.

7. Bravery in Public Spaces

• Personal Testimony:
  • Heidi candidly shares her journey from a difficult, abusive upbringing and panic disorders to her calling as a national speaker and advocate for families (25:00-29:37).
  • She recounts moments where courage led her into new ministry opportunities despite deep fear.
• Role of Community and Support:
  • Courage also involves asking for help and acknowledging one’s weaknesses.

8. Resources for Instilling Courage

• Children’s Books:
  • Discussion of Brave Books as a resource for teaching biblical values and courage to children (30:10-33:44).
  • Heidi's own children’s book, The Mouse in the Sea, and Frank’s Milo’s Mission spotlight the importance of character formation.

9. Courage in Public and Political Life

• Christians in Politics:
  • “If you think the gospel is important, you better think politics are important.” (Frank, 50:46)
  • Heidi shares her 2022 run for Congress, including her experience with President Trump’s endorsement (48:11–49:17).
• Voter Engagement:
  • Many self-identified Christians are disengaged; widespread Christian voter participation could drastically change elections (52:31-53:03).
• Clarifying the Church-State Relationship:
  • The “separation of church and state” is often misunderstood and misapplied to discourage Christian engagement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Real Courage:

  • “Courage is not the absence of fear… It’s doing what's right in the face of fear.” (Frank, 03:24)

• On Parental Influence:

  • “Our children are watching us. They're watching how we respond to the news, to a virus, to criticism… and we trust that what God began in us as parents, he will finish in our children.” (Heidi, 06:43)

• On the Loss of Reverence:

  • “We really have, in this culture, lost the awe of God.” (Heidi, 08:39)

• On Suffering’s Purpose:

  • “The least that we can do is live our lives according to His decrees and His regulations as He has set forth in His Scriptures over and over again.” (Heidi, 13:26)

• On Evangelical Attitudes to Suffering:

  • “We don’t have… a very good theology for suffering.” (Heidi, 21:33)

• On Courage and Risk:

  • “When was the last time you risked something in order to do the right thing?” (Frank, 38:39)

• On “Part-Time Christians”:

  • “Are we part-time Christians? Do we just only sometimes act like Christians or are we on a day off most of the time?” (Frank, 39:32)

• On Cultural Opposition:

  • “This is a culture that has set itself up against the knowledge of God… we have to be committed as parents to defending those truths ourselves.” (Heidi, 34:17)

• On Christians and Politics:

  • “Politics determines policy, and policy shapes the nation. Christians need to be in the policy-making, shaping business, which is why I ran for Congress.” (Heidi, 52:11)

• On Current Gen Z Revival:

  • “We're starting to see a generation of Christians who are not ashamed of the Gospel… they're boldly saying, you know what? I actually believe in Jesus.” (Heidi, 42:49)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:03 – 03:24: Frank introduces courage, citing Aristotle, Scripture, and Heidi St. John's background.
• 03:55 – 07:43: Heidi’s approach to parenting for courage; the necessity of modeling what you want to see in your children.
• 07:43 – 10:44: Discussing the “fear of the Lord” and its relevance for Christians.
• 14:05 – 17:41: Heidi’s testimony regarding her cancer diagnosis, family prayer, and the spiritual fruits of suffering.
• 21:33 – 22:01: The problem of weak theology of suffering in the evangelical community.
• 25:00 – 29:37: Heidi’s personal story of overcoming abuse, mental health struggles, and being called to public ministry.
• 30:10 – 33:44: Recommendations for Brave Books and the importance of equipping children with “countercultural” biblical stories.
• 34:17 – 38:39: Strategies for instilling courage in kids amidst a hostile culture—and the vital role of honest, open conversation.
• 48:11 – 49:17: Heidi summarizes her run for Congress and her meeting with President Trump.
• 52:31 – 54:26: The urgency of Christian civic engagement and the myths of separation of church and state.

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Episode Takeaways

• Courage is an essential Christian virtue—modeled, taught, and learned through community, adversity, and Scripture.
• Instilling courage in children requires authenticity, transparency, and a willingness to address uncomfortable cultural realities.
• A robust theology of suffering and a reverence for God are crucial for enduring faith, especially in hardship.
• Christians must be present in public and political spheres to influence law and culture with biblical truth and love.
• Resources like Brave Books can help families train children to stand firm in their values.

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Further Engagement

• Heidi St. John's Website and Podcast — The Heidi St. John Podcast
• Brave Books — Monthly children's books teaching biblical values
• Becoming Mom: How to Fight with All That’s In You for Your Family and Your Faith (Heidi’s memoir)
• Revival Generation Documentary (CBN)

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(Ads, intro/outro, and announcements have been omitted for this summary.)

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, Aristotle said, courage is the first of human qualities because it is the quality which guarantees the others. And he was absolutely right. If you don't have courage, you won't do anything else. This might be why the Scriptures talk a lot about courage. First of all, Jesus in John 16 said, in the world you will have tribulation, but take heart, I've overcome the world. No matter what happens in this life, ladies and gentlemen, if you're in Christ, you're guaranteed at some point to be glorified. Of course, this is throughout the Old Testament as well. Deuteronomy says this. Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you. The Psalmist Psalm 27 says, the Lord is my light and my salvation. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, my of whom shall I be afraid? Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16, Be watchful. Stand firm in the faith. Act like men. Be strong. And in Acts 4, when the officials, the Jewish officials, were trying to tamp down on the Gospel, it says this in Acts 4:13. The boldness, the courage of Peter and John amazed the religious leaders, even though they were unschooled ordinary men. And of course, Paul, in his final work, second Timothy, told Timothy, for God gave us a spirit of fear. For God gave us a spirit not of fear, but of power and love and self control. So how can we instill this in others? Courage, that is. And how can we instill it in our kids? Well, we have somebody who can help us do that. This phenomenal woman has courage because she had seven kids and then homeschooled them all, ladies and gentlemen. And she's an author of more than 10 books. This is the first time she's been on I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. Here she is, the great Heidi St. John, all the way from a bunker somewhere in the People's Republic of Oregon. Heidi, it's great having you on the program. Finally. First of all, seven kids and now eight grandkids. And you look like. You look like you're 30. How do you have seven kids and eight grandkids? How does this happen?

[B]

Well, first of all, it's just such a delight for me to be here frank with you. I'm really looking forward to this. And if people are ever kind enough to compliment me in that way, I have to point them back to, to the wonderful man I've been married to for 36 years. So I'm married to a good man. And I think that that's a lot of it because I'll tell you what, you know, I'm 197 years old in homeschool years. It's a lot.

[A]

Well, well, if you have seven kids and you now have eight grandkids. And am I. Am I right? Do you live in Oregon?

[B]

I live in. Well, I grew up in Oregon. I'm in Oregon right now because our family's here in sun river on vacation, but I live in Southwest Washington. So about. Like, our homeschool resource center is located about 20 minutes from the airport in Portland, Oregon.

[A]

Okay. So there are at least 15 Christians in Washington, and they're all part of Heidi St. John's family.

[B]

100% true.

[A]

All right, so courage is. Is a big topic in your world. You've written on it, you've spoken on it. How do we instill courage in people? And let's point out before we get into this, that courage is not the absence of fear. I mean, if you didn't have fear, you wouldn't need courage. Right? It's doing what's right in the face of fear. So, Heidi, give us some insights on how you do that. Let's start with kids. Because you homeschooled seven kids, how do you instill courage in them?

[B]

Well, I think it's important to point out it takes courage to homeschool your children in the first place. And I'm a huge believer that you can't pass on what you don't possess. And a long time ago, my grandmother, my grandfather was a pastor, and he really got me interested in politics. He took me campaigning for Ronald Reagan when I was a kid, and I was afraid. One time we were going door knocking with my granddad, who was representing this little tiny evangelical church in Beaverton, Oregon. And I was telling my grandma that I was afraid. And she said, heidi, you can do anything if you'll do it afraid. She said courage means that you're doing something in spite of being afraid. It doesn't mean that being afraid is wrong. And I think that that part of our humanity is really on full display in the verse in First Timothy that you just quoted. When the apostle Paul is getting ready to pass the mantle to his protege, this young man, Timothy, who is. Who had every reason to be afraid. The Roman emperors were killing Christians for sport, and here is Timothy getting ready to take his place on the battlefield. I'm sure his knees were knocking and he was afraid. And Paul seemed to pick up on that. And his admonition to Timothy was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what is this? Where is this coming from? God didn't give you the spirit of fear. This isn't from the Lord. I thought it was fascinating and so beautiful that the apostle Paul calls fear what it really is. Fear is a spirit. And he said, it's not from the Lord. Well, if it's not from the Lord, then who is it from? And so over and over and over in the Bible, we're exhorted not to be afraid. We're exhorted to have courage. And we don't have courage because of something inside of us. We have courage because we trust that ultimately our days belong to the Lord of Heaven's armies and that I'm not going to live a day beyond when he has ordained for me. And so once you know that, then you can live out, I think, in greater purpose, the life that God has for you. And as parents, the way that we encourage our children toward courage is to demonstrate it ourselves. We have an awful lot of parents who want to see change in the culture, but they're either unwilling or they feel unqualified to engage in the cultural struggles in which we live. And our children are watching that. And so if we believe that we can't pass on what we don't possess, then that means we, you know, as parents, we should be looking for the areas in the culture to which God would call us. So we have to ask him, right, Lord, what would you have me do? And then it becomes an issue of obedience. And so, you know, my husband and I have spent our entire lives, you know, raising all these kids. And our decision to homeschool them, Frank, was maybe one of the scariest decisions that we ever made, certainly that I had ever made. I had no intention of homeschooling our kids. I could not understand why any woman in her right mind would want to be locked up all day long, 18 years in a row, when a yellow bus come, take my kids away for free. And God opened my eyes to what was happening in the schools. And then he burdened my heart with a passage in Deuteronomy that reminded me that the upbringing of our children and the discipleship of our children belongs to me. And someday my husband and I will answer to the Lord for it. So those little decisions, I. Our children are watching us. They're watching how we respond to the news. They're watching how we respond to a virus. They're watching how we respond to criticism. They watch all these things. And we have no guarantees as to whether or not our children will emulate the good parts that they saw in us and not emulate the bad things. Right? But we give those things to the Lord. And we trust that what God began in us as parents, he will finish in our children.

[A]

Let me ask you about fear of the Lord. It says, of course, in Proverbs, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And I think that some Christians say, well, since Christ has paid for my sins, there's nothing to fear from the Lord anymore. They think, oh, you know, Jesus is my buddy now and there's no reason to be afraid. And in a certain sense, I understand that. I understand that because the wrath of the Father has now been put on Christ. However, God still can, of course, take away rewards because of our disobedience and the sin in our lives. But how would you respond to a Christian, Heidi, who said, I don't need to fear the Lord anymore because God has put all the punishment on Jesus.

[B]

I would wonder if he really understood who God is.

[A]

Unpack that further. Go ahead.

[B]

I am right now in the middle of taking my women's ministry. It's called Faith that Speaks through the Bible. So we're reading chronologically through the Bible. So we've spent the last, you know, three or four weeks reading through Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Daniel. And over and over and over again, God warns the Israelites, I want you to live by my decrees, my regulations, right? We read over and over again, the Lord of heaven's armies has spoken. When God speaks, we better take him seriously. This is the God of the universe, the one who spoke the heavens into being. It's his breath that created everything that we see around us. And I think we really have, in this culture, lost the awe of God. And when the Israelites did that, boy, the punishment was no joke. I mean, we're in the. They're in the midst of my reading right now in the middle of a Babylonian captivity. And they were led away into captivity because of their sin and rebellion against the Lord. And over and over and over again, we saw the same pattern repeat itself in the lives of the Israelites. And honestly, Frank, if I'm. If I'm perfectly honest, I can see that repeated in my life if I'm not careful to keep short accounts with the Lord and to listen to the tender leading of His Holy Spirit and to study His Word so that I might be a workman who does not need to be ashamed, who can rightly divide the word of Truth. We need to understand that God's heart and passion for us as human beings was demonstrated. Right. As you just said, when he sent Jesus. But also the payment for our sin cost us the life of Jesus Christ. We should take that seriously. This was not a cheap grace. This cost him everything. This cost Jesus everything. And so I want my children to see that I have a healthy, not a fear like that. I think that God is arbitrary, but a fear of a reverence and an awe of the holiness of the God that I serve and the love that he has for me that he would send his son to bear my sin upon that cross. I take that seriously. God takes sin seriously, and so should we.

[A]

Yeah. And I think also I, I, I know that all the punishment goes on Jesus. However, I think there's also a sense as he talks about, as the writer of Hebrews talks about. I think it's in Hebrews 12, that God disciplines those he loves. He might not be punishing us for our sin, but he certainly can discipline us for our sin. It may feel this like it's the same thing, but if we get out of line, if God loves us, he is going to discipline us, even though he's punishing Jesus for the sins we we're committing. I think discipline is something you want to be afraid of, of the Lord, Right?

[B]

Yeah. I wouldn't put God in the gentle parenting camp when it comes to sin. Right. He's a good father. And you're right. God's word says that he disciplines those he loves. And we have to live with the consequences of our sin and the choices that we make. And so, yes, we're forgiven. And yes, we're gonna, if we know Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we're gonna spend our eternity with, with Him. But you're right, as you pointed out, the Bible's pretty clear in teaching that God can take away reward crowns that would have been given to us had we obeyed and walked our lives out the way His Word declares. I've told my kids for a long, long time. You know, our oldest daughter is 35 years old now, and she has five children of her own. So she and her husband, you know, raising these beautiful kids. And we were teaching her oldest son, Noah. So my oldest son or my oldest grandson is 12. We were teaching him about boundaries the other day, and I had said to him, if you want the blessing of God, then God's Word says we are to stay inside the boundaries that God has set up. The boundaries were set up for our blessing. God is a Good Father. And he put those blessings there as guardrails in our lives. And there are consequences for straying outside of those guardrails. Just like there's consequences for stepping off the boardwalk in Yellowstone. Right? We wanna stay on the path that God lays out for us. And part of that, I think is taking sin seriously and asking the Lord to, to kind of show us our blind spots. Cause we all have them. Sometimes we're blind. At least I can be blind to my own sin until the Lord reveals it to me and I start listening like, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, that's right. I'm sorry, Father. You know, help me to walk in a way that brings you glory. And then he brings us back. He's such a good God. It's amazing to me, I just. That the God of the universe knows my name, that he knows my name, that I believe that heaven weeps when we're struggling, that God collects our tears in a bottle. He cares about us. And he's demonstrated that in such a spectacular, magnificent, amazing way through sending Jesus. The least that we can do is live our lives according to his decrees and his regulations as he has set forth in his scriptures over and over again.

[A]

And I know there's some skeptics who may be listening going, well, if God, you know, sees all our tears, why doesn't he just take the pain away? Well, one reason is, ladies and gentlemen, is because sometimes we need that pain. If we're going to be conformed to the image of his son, we need to go through difficulty. It's for our own good that God can bring forth good to those that love him. Even the good we can't see. It could be years down the road, Heidi. And it could even be that we don't, we pass on and that even our death can lead to something good later. We're here for just a short time.

[B]

Yeah, we really are. And I agree with you. I think sometimes we learn the most, or at least I do when I'm struggling, when I'm so aware of my need for and my dependence on the Lord. I just came through a season in my life. I was diagnosed with a tumor back in February of this year. And I had major surgery in July to remove that tumor. And 27 lymph nodes were taken and I was declared, praise the Lord, cancer free. But I will tell you that the months leading up to that, to that surgery and the preparation for it and all the things, it drew me closer to the Lord and I was more dependent on him in prayer. And I was reminded of the brevity of my own life. I don't know when the Lord is going to take me home. And in those moments, I think all of us, we can relate to this, the suffering. You could ask the question, why? But I think maybe a better question is, why not? Why not me? We can ask, why me? Well, maybe we should start asking, you know, why not me? Because the Lord's always teaching us something. And I learned more about his faithfulness and more about his tender care. The Bible says he's near to the brokenhearted, that he literally binds up our wounds. And any person that has walked through the valley of the shadow of death and clung to the Lord, whether. Whether the Lord takes that person home or whether they stay on this earth for a little while longer, there's no question in my mind that we grow deeper and we know him better.

[A]

Our light and momentary afflictions are achieving for us a greater weight of glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, for what is seen is temporary. We fix our eyes on what is unseen. For what is unseen is eternal.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

That's Paul summarizing a teaching in 2 Corinthians, chapter 4, about the value of suffering. It's nothing compared to eternity, but it helps us to. It increases our capacity to enjoy God now and also in eternity when we go through this difficulty. I'm sure you experienced that by going through that awful surgery, Heidi. Just even anticipating it had to be something that enhanced your capacity to enjoy God.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's changed me, right. I have a greater appreciation for the time that I have, and I have a greater appreciation for prayer at the very beginning of it on my podcast and out on the road, because I speak for a living. So I'm out on the road quite a bit at conferences and things like that. And I started telling people, this is what's going on with me. And so I had to cancel my July and August speaking appearances. And there were several people who said, man, why do you want to put your life out there like that? And I said, well, I'm not doing it for fun. I'm doing it for prayer. I believe in the power of prayer, and I wanted people praying. And I believe that. Not that God can't heal a person who doesn't have 10,000 people praying for you, but if you can get 10,000 people praying for you, boy, howdy, I'm gonna ask for it. And also, it put my story sort of out there. For people to see. And in so doing, I was reminded again that I had an opportunity to turn people to Jesus, to say, look, he's not just with me in the best parts of my life. He's also with me in the hardest parts. And I think maybe even more near. You know, when I went under, we weren't sure when I came out of that surgery what they were going to find. You know, are they going to find a malignancy? What are they going to find? And so we really went into that surgery with such a dependence on the Lord, my husband and me, that it was almost palpable in the room. And I have a greater appreciation, you know, for the Lord's healing.

[A]

What's been the spirit of the entire family. Now you got seven kids, eight grandkids. How did that ordeal affect the family moving up to the surgery?

[B]

Yeah, we spent a lot of time in prayer the night before the surgery. Actually, my daughter. Actually, it ended up that six of our seven kids were there. Our son wasn't there because he doesn't live close enough, but six of our seven kids, it just spontaneously ended up at our house that night and sat around me. In fact, I'm fairly certain I might send it to you, Frank. I'm fairly certain that my husband took a picture of just our kids sitting around me on the floor and putting their head in my lap and holding my hand and just crying out to the Lord for healing.

[A]

If it's okay with you, we'll share it in the show notes.

[B]

Yeah, I'll send it to you. I'm sure that my husband has it, but it was precious. And I said to Jay that night that I don't think I've ever had more peace in my heart, that no matter what the outcome of that surgery was, my kids were gonna be okay. They're gonna walk with the Lord. And it gave us the opportunity to talk to them about just the brevity of life. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow. Right. We kind of have this illusion that we're in control of our days, but really we're not. And I think it drew our family closer. Just a beautiful. I mean, I, I. It was difficult. I'm not gonna lie to you. I mean, it was definitely. It was difficult, but I see more good out of it now. I feel that someone asked me. I did an interview on Newsmax the other day, and someone asked me about it, and the only thing that I could say was, I. I feel I have been on the receiving end of a very great mercy. And I'M thankful. I'm thankful.

[A]

The more you can pass that on. Second Corinthians 1 says that God comforted you, so now you can comfort others through suffering.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So now you have a whole new dimension to your ability to minister to people you didn't have before.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's a good thing that comes out of a bad thing. But ladies and gentlemen, everyone listening to us right now, we can both say with confidence that 100 years from now, we'll all be gone. What are you doing with that? Are you just gonna put your head in the sand and say, well, life is. It just ends and we die and that's it? Are you sure about that? Because as C.S. lewis famously said, that Christianity is either the most important fact if it's true, or it's irrelevant. The one thing it can't be is just moderately important. And a lot of us treat, as Christians, a lot of us treat Christianity like it's moderately important. You know, I. I like it in some aspects of my life, but in other aspects of my life, it doesn't affect that at all. That's not Christianity. It's 365, 24 7. Every area of our life is affected by what the Lord has told us and how we should live. And when you go through something like this, it really, I think, centers you back on that, doesn't it?

[B]

Absolutely true. And it has solidified my belief that God does the refining work that we need in trials. It happens in trial. It typically doesn't happen on the mountaintop experiences or when everything's going well financially, or when we're not facing sickness or we're not having a struggle in our marriage. It happens when we recognize our need for the Lord and cry out to Him. And I think there's a very powerful thing that happens. We don't have, I don't think, in the evangelical community a very good theology for suffering.

[A]

No, we don't. That's excellent insight, Heidi. Excellent insight. I was just talking to somebody about that the other day. We have no theology of suffering. It's more like even though we don't all believe in the prosperity Gospel, it's like there's almost like a background expectation that if I basically follow Jesus, he owes me and everything's going to turn out well, according to my definition of well, that's false.

[B]

Yeah. And it puts us on the throne of our lives rather than the one who made us and gave us breath and says, I created you with a plan and a purpose for Your life. And maybe part of that purpose will include suffering. And because God sees the tapestry right on the other side, we don't see what God is doing. One day we will. One day we'll understand. But I really do think that we need to grapple with and talk about more suffering. I think the Catholics do it pretty good. They got a pretty good handle on it. But in the. In the Protestant evangelical movement, I don't see a good theology for suffering. And I've had an opportunity over the last six months to really think more about it and talk to the men and women that I'm privileged to get to minister to on a regular basis, because everyone is suffering on one level or another, and it should turn us to the Lord. And instead we see Christians who. Or maybe they encounter suffering, and then what we see as a result of that is a deconstruction of their faith. Right. This is more and more common. You know, how could God allow this terrible thing to happen? Or. And so if we're not rooted, if we don't understand the love of God in the midst of suffering and what God might be doing and trust him in that, in allowing that thing to come into our lives, well, then your faith becomes a little bit shaky and you struggle a little bit more. And that was one thing I did not do. I think partly because I came from abuse. I grew up in an abusive home. It's a huge part of the first book that I wrote for Tyndale. And so I've already experienced a fair degree of suffering in my life.

[A]

What's the name of that book, Heidi?

[B]

It's called Becoming Mom. How to fight with all that's in you for your family and your faith.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that was published in. I think it's on its sixth printing or something now. It was published in 2017.

[A]

So that was birthed basically out of suffering?

[B]

Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yes. And it really was my story of, like, how would God. That God would take Heidi St. John, a woman who felt like I had no value, no worth, a father who did not love me, grew up, or who I felt did not love me, grew up in a very abusive home. My parents divorced when I was 18 years old, and I'm the oldest of six sisters. And then the Lord gives Heidi St. John, this woman who cannot keep houseplants alive and had a massive panic disorder, seven children. Like, this is a humorous God that we serve. And I think that the process of the Lord kind of refining my life through having children, of course, I married a wonderful human being. I was only 19 when my husband and I got married. I was 19. He was 21. And I have. And I detail this in the book, but I spent, I want to say, 30 years on anxiety medicine. I was just absolutely. The fight or flight mechanism inside of me was completely broken. And I remember the Lord asking me to speak because a woman didn't show up to an event that my husband and I were hosting up in Seattle. And my husband said, you'd be great at this. You should fill in. And I was like, oh, no, no, no. Heidi St. John, not gonna speak in. Maybe you haven't heard. I have a panic disorder. I don't want to get up there and just, you know, freak out. And Jay was just like, you never read about Moses? Like, you know, if God's called you to do this thing, he's going to help you do it. Which was the beginning of me speaking in front of tens of thousands of people and the Lord who said, it's me. Like, I'm the one who's doing this thing in you first. We're going to heal some of these places in you that are broken. And that took a very long time. Time. It took a long time. Years even. And, I mean, I speak about it with a smile on my face now because I've experienced the mercy and the healing of the Lord. And I've learned to trust him. I've learned to trust him over the years.

[A]

Did you speak at that event? Heidi? Did you speak at that event?

[B]

I did, yeah.

[A]

Like, Cole, you just got up and started talking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Without any prep.

[B]

Yeah, with. Really. With. Not very much. I wrote on an index card. I decided. I prayed about it with my husband, and I thought, okay, I'm going to talk about something I know. I know about. And that was brokenness inside of marriage. Because I grew up in a broken home. It was on my heart. There were some pretty significant things happening at that time with some of my siblings, and it was just on my heart. And I was talking to homeschool moms, and I just told them, listen, don't sacrifice your marriage on the altar of homeschooling. Keep your eye on the ball, right? The adversary knows if he can take out your marriage, he's got a clean shot at your children. Just these little snippets, which I really feel now, in hindsight, were just from the Lord that I scribbled down on an index card and got up in front of all these people, knees knocking, hands shaking. I was afraid. And I remember my grandmother saying, you can do Anything, just do it. Afraid. And after that, that was the first time I'd ever spoken like that. And maybe two weeks later, I got a call from a. An organization in Idaho and then Arizona and sort of the rest is history. And my husband. It was really, really sweet. I sat down. I'm sweating profusely, right. Still just shaking. My throat is dry. And my husband goes, I had no idea you could do that. He was like, that was amazing. And I was like, that was just the Lord. And I tucked my little index card in in a book sitting there next to me, and. Yeah. And I've been pretty much speaking ever since.

[A]

What year was that? Do you remember?

[B]

Oh, my goodness. That would have been. Oh, for goodness sake. That have been 27 years ago, maybe. Oh, okay. Long time ago.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah, long time ago. No, not 27. Probably 20. Probably closer to 20.

[A]

Okay, so you had some kids at that point? Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Yes, we. I think we had five children. There were four or five at that point. Yeah. And even that, like, we never set out to, like, have a large family. I. I think it's funny, you know, my husband wanted two children, and I came from, you know, a family of seven children. I'm the oldest of six sisters, and I have an older brother. And I was like, two children. That would be so boring. Can you imagine how bored we'll be? So I begged him for three, and then we ended up with seven.

[A]

So, you know, who was it that said, I don't know. I've heard the people say this. You know, you have two kids, and then when a third comes, it's like you're drowning, holding two kids, and somebody throws you a baby. So true. And you. You got to seven.

[B]

Yeah. And then. And then. And then you homeschool them. So you're drowning and someone throws you a baby, and then a whole cartload of textbooks on top of your head. And then you're trying to, you know. Yeah, it's. It's. It's real. It's very, very true. And you learn to lean on the Lord, like, just in a new way, you know, very aware of my own. My own frailties and my own shortcomings and my own insecurities. And it's a miracle story. I mean, Frank, your girl is a walking, breathing miracle. The Lord could take me from such a broken place. And at 19 years old, instead of making a terrible mistake at 19 and marrying some weirdo, I just happened to find the most amazing human being ever to grace the campus at Multnomah School. Of the Bible. And we've been married for 36 years now in my family, that is a. That's a miracle. It's a miracle. And it's. It's the Lord I trust.

[A]

It's great, too. You started young. You can enjoy your grandkids.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Yep.

[A]

And if things go well, maybe even your great grandkids.

[B]

Yes. Lord willing.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just so great. Now. I got a call, I don't know, six, eight months ago from Brave Books because they wanted to do a book for kids. And I like the Brave books because it's helping young people learn biblical values. In fact, mine just came out just earlier this month. It's called Milo's Mission. Oh, come on.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It's all about responsibility. Now, first of all, tell. You've got a book with Brave books.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Tell us about that and how it can help kids with courage.

[B]

Well, I. I'm a super fan of Brave. I know all those guys over there. In fact, they've been on my podcast before. I love the Mission. I think people need to understand this is more than just, here's a book that's gonna be fun for you to read your kids that isn't woke. Right. We're all looking for that anyway, but this is so far beyond that. They're beautifully illustrated, and the books are instilling godly character traits in children. And it isn't just that they're helping children understand what courage is. They're helping children make good choices. One of the books that I actually read to one of my grandchildren the other day was all about why we should trust our parents when our parents give us instruction, and why we should listen to our parents, which is so counter to the culture. So I love, love, love the subscription service that is Brave. My book is called the Mouse in the Sea, and it is about a little mouse who becomes pretty proud of himself and too proud to ask for help, and it gets him into trouble. And so the book is about asking for help. I always tell moms, I feel like that book is every bit as much for moms who also should ask for help, because God's made us to live in community with each other. But I have loved watching the ministry that is Brave books explode like it is. And, Frank, I can't wait to get your book. I'm sure, actually, it's on its way. It's coming in the mail.

[A]

Yeah. If you subscribe, ladies and gentlemen, @bravebooks.com. actually, they may have. I'm trying to think of the website that you go to. But if you type in Brave Books, you'll find it, you'll get one book a month. And they also, I was just talking, actually talking to Trent today. He's the CEO.

[B]

Yes, Trent Talbot.

[A]

Yeah. And they, they have a TV or a video service and that in that video service they get about 60 different non woke kid programs, including the one with Kirk Cameron, which is great, called.

[B]

Called Iggy and Mr. Kirk.

[A]

Iggy and Mr. Kirk. And I love on that program they have a vulture and his name is Culture.

[B]

I just love that. He's, he's, he's, he's the culture vulture.

[A]

Yeah, he's the culture vulture. It's just great for kids. And they, they've done two seasons already. They're going to do a third. And we'll, we'll, we'll put the website in the show notes where parents, it's like six or seven bucks a month and they can watch stuff off their iPad or on TV if they get the Brave Books TV service. It's just phenomenal stuff and it's really well illustrated as you said. The books are anyway. I mean. Oh yeah, it's really, it's really great stuff.

[B]

Yeah. And I think parents need to realize, you know, I grew up, and I know about you Frank, but I grew up on Scholastic Books, right. We used to get those really flimsy little paper catalogs and we all looked for it. Scholastic is one of the most disgusting organizations out there now. The books, they are pedal. Oh, it's terrible. The books they are peddling to children. It's horrific. Actually, I've done entire shows on what Scholastic is doing to children. And the agenda of a lot of these organizations that we really have come to trust are not trustworthy. And Brave is a wonderful, wonderful alternative. And you can feel good about putting your money towards something that's going to be life giving and actually shop your money with your values for a change. So wonderful.

[A]

Now Heidi, tell us a little bit more about courage. Because I think it's very difficult for a kid in today's culture who doesn't have courage to stay true to the faith because they're incentivized to renounce Christianity in order to fit in with the culture. So what can we do as parents or as youth pastors or as friends or as grandparents to try and instill courage in the young people in our lives?

[B]

Well, I think the first thing is we have to be really honest about the culture that we're living in. This is a Culture that has set itself up against the knowledge of God. It has set itself up against the created design of God in something as basic as male and female. And we have to be committed first as parents to defending those truths ourselves. And so talking about them, I think really important. There's no subject at the St John House around the dinner table that is off limits. We have conversations. And sadly, our youngest daughter is almost 15 now. So I got one left at home. And I am having conversations with my youngest daughter, Sailor, at 7, 8 years old, that I would not have dreamed of having with my daughter Savannah, who's now 35 when she was that age. And so we have to be able to read the room and engage our children in conversation so that they know how to answer the questions that the culture is asking from a biblical point of view, and so that our children know that our homes are safe places for them to ask the questions. Because I think sometimes Christians shy away from these difficult topics. And we need not shy away from them. We need to talk about them. And so whether it's transgenderism, which is a huge lie from the enemy, I mean, this has a stranglehold here in the Pacific Northwest. I've been talking about this with my daughter since she was 4 years old and saw Caitlyn Jenner on the COVID of Vanity Fair magazine while we were checking out at Walmart. And I had to have a conversation with her, and she finally is like, mom, why is that man dressed like a princess? Right? Our kids know. Our kids, I think, intrinsically know that. That men cannot become women. But unless we tell them the truth and we reinforce what we know to be true according to God's word, they will be swayed to believe the lies of the culture. And so courage is not something. I mean, it is a gift, I think, from the Holy Spirit to be able to do what God asked us to do. It's really obedience, right? Just obedience. Obedience to tell the truth. Obedience to be an ambassador, like we are there for the ambassadors of God in this generation, as if he was making his appeal through me. Come back to me. That's what he's saying, right? Come back to me. Well, if our kids don't see us doing that, we can't pass on what we don't possess. So I think it starts with those. Those honest conversations. Let your kids know that you're not afraid to talk about these things, that God's word can be trusted. And if you don't know the answer, it's actually okay to tell your kids, you know, what I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer to that question, but I know that God's word does. And we always go back to the word of God, you know, back to the Bible, back to what we know to be true and to stay on that foundation. And so to me, that's the most important thing. And I think when we see a generation, you know, my friend Ken Ham, I love Ken. We've been palling around for a really long time, and he has this extraordinary ministry called Answers in Genesis. And he wrote a book years ago called Already Gone. And he was talking about how we're losing generations of young people. Right? They're leaving the church faster than they're coming in. Although this is not true of Generation Z. Incredible things happening in Gen Z right now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I was having dinner with Ken and Mali one night, and we were talking about this just exodus that we've seen of our young people from the church. And I said to him, I said, you know, Ken, I really believe you don't just lose a generation of children, you don't just lose a generation of teenagers, you lose a generation of parents, and then you lose a generation of children. And it's so easy for us to say, oh, look at the young people today, you know, blah, blah, blah. We gotta take a good long look in the mirror, I think, and ask the Lord, is my life. Am I living a life that's worthy of emulating? Am I living a life that's worth. That's speaking the truth and not being afraid? Right. We have cowardice everywhere in Christendom right now. We have cowardice from the pulpits, cowardice in our churches. We see it everywhere. And I think God's calling this generation to be bold and courageous and not be afraid. And when we see that happen in parents, I think we're going to see even more in our young people.

[A]

Well, I was going to ask the parents who may be listening, when was the last time that you risked something in order to do the right thing? When was the last time you demonstrated courage so your child could see that maybe you said something that needed to be said even though it was uncomfortable. Maybe you did something at work that might have put you at risk of losing your job because you're standing for Christ? Maybe you said something or did something that was difficult at church or in the neighborhood. Do they see courage demonstrated, or do they see you playing it safe to fit in? You know, it's been said before, if someone were to put you on trial for being A Christian, Would there be enough evidence to convict you? Ask yourself that question or would you be just like everybody else? Right. I heard this Christian comedian not long ago saying he picked up the phone, he's trying to call somebody. The lady picked it up and kind of cursed him out and said, who gave you this number? And he said, well, I'm just brother so and so. And suddenly she became real sweet and he said, I, I didn't realize it, but I was calling a part time Christian and apparently I caught her on her day off. I mean, are we part time Christians? Do we just only sometimes do we act like Christians or are we on a day off most of the time? So when if we don't demonstrate courage, our kids aren't going to do it? What are they afraid of? Let me put it this way. In your view, Heidi, what are kids most afraid of? Let's say either middle school kids or high school kids. What are they afraid of? More than God?

[B]

Oh, wow. Well, I think they're afraid of the same thing that we see that they see their pastors being afraid of. How often? I mean, they're afraid of being canceled by the culture. Right. This is the reason why you don't see more pastors with bold courage talking about the issues that are actually affecting us today in real time. We run and hide because these are uncomfortable. It's just what you said a moment ago. These are uncomfortable conversations and we don't want to have them and we don't want to be canceled. Right? We've all been canceled. I've been canceled. I'm sure you've been canceled. And I was fired in the name.

[A]

Of inclusion, tolerance and diversity.

[B]

Come on. I lost my literary agent because I voted for President Trump. I mean, truly, you know, this is a very difficult climate that we live in. Thank you, social media. You know, we have so there's so much division and I think that, you know, our young people today and this is why I'm so excited about Gen Z. I was at the Kennedy Center a couple of nights ago watching the premiere of revival generation. CBN's putting out a new documentary and it is so exciting. I left. There was so much joy in my heart and so much just enthusiasm and I was so encouraged because I think our young people are starting to actually take a stand for Jesus and we should.

[A]

Where can people see that, Heidi? Is it just at the Kennedy center revival?

[B]

Well, the premiere was at the Kennedy center, but I believe if you Google it, it is just releasing. So Revival Generation from cbn. Just an extraordinary look at what is happening on college campuses, secular college campuses around the nation. Baptisms, people, you know, kids coming to Christ. Jay and I were at George Washington University because I had a meeting at the White House a couple of days ago.

[A]

That's my alma mater, by the way.

[B]

Is it really?

[A]

I got a master's at gw. Yeah, it's far left, kid.

[B]

It sure is. Well, here's what's interesting, Frank. I saw yard signs all over the campus promoting Bible studies for young people to come to. @ GW@G. I'm not even joking.

[A]

You forget about it.

[B]

I'm not kidding.

[A]

No way, girl.

[B]

I'm not kidding. You should go. Look, it was amazing. And you know, I'm not saying that they're not still far left. I'm sure that they are. But what I am saying is I think that we're starting to see a generation of Christians who are not ashamed of the Gospel because they recognize it's the power of Christ for salvation for those who believe. And instead of being afraid, they're boldly saying, you know what? I actually believe in Jesus long time ago. And I won't tell you the whole story because it's too probably long. I don't know how much time we have left, but I was on an airplane with an atheist sitting next to me. And if I'm going someplace, typically if I'm going to be on a plane for a long time and I'm tired or I have something to work on, I just put my headphones on and I try really hard not to wade into any water that would stir up a conversation that I didn't have the time or the energy to do, to get into. And so this was my plan on this particular day. This man who happened to be a professor at one of the most liberal universities in Oregon, just chit chatting with me, you know. And finally he said, you know, where do your kids go to school? And I said, well, they're, you know, they're homeschooled. And he was like, what, you homeschool your children? How many children do you have? I said, I have seven children. Took off my headphones, like, this is going to be a long conversation. I was wrapping my cord around my headphones and we got into all, all kinds of fascinating discussions. And one of the very first things he asked me was, what did I think about gay marriage right out of the gate? And this is what I'm talking about. The culture is ready to have these conversations. The question is, are Christians ready?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are we ready or Are we ashamed of the gospel? So I said to him, I said, sir, hey, before I answer that question, let me ask you a question. Have you ever been to the Portland Zoo? And he looked kind of funny at me. And he was like, well, yes. And I said, I was just at the Portland Zoo. I said, I saw a hissing Madagascar cockroach at park. The Portland Zoo. They have this whole exhibit of these cockroaches. I said, there's a, you know, Paki the elephant, and there's zebras there and otters there. And there's an American wolf in this great big exhibit and a giraffe. I said, I've had the privilege of holding seven newborn infants in my arms and no one is ever going to tell me that out of some primordial ooze somewhere some amazing explosion happens, some big bang, and you became you and I became me. And that became a hissing Madagascar cockroach and that became an American wolf. And this is Paki the elephant. I just can't believe it. I can't believe it. I said, the sun comes up just on time every single day. Far enough away from the earth so it doesn't scorch it and close enough so that we're not freezing to death. And you can't tell me that that happened by accident. I believe I have a creator and having a creator changes everything. I believe I have a creator. And I said, do you think this is an accident? And he said, well, I'm having a harder time, you know. And so we have this like, you know what? We had a five hour conversation on the plane that day. He ends up giving me his phone number. And I just think we need to be, the Bible can be trusted and the Bible can be defended and God's word is true and it is the power of God for salvation. So the question becomes, are we ashamed of the gospel? And I think we have seen generations, Frank, who are ashamed of the gospel. They are embarrassed. Another guy in an airplane one time we were talking about, I don't know how this keeps happening to me, but he talked to me about my faith. And he said, really? You believe that backward, rickety, you know, dusty old Bible, you believe that? You believe the Bible? And I said, he said, you believe that really it's just male and female. And I said, I believe weirder things than that. I believe that God spoke to or that a snake spoke to a woman in a garden. I believe that, you know, just boldly and unapologetically, this is what I believe. And I think we're seeing Generation Z embrace that because they've seen that all the other things that these. That this, you know, the sloppy agape of the 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s and early 2000s is not working right. And this generation is smelling a rat and they're turning to Jesus.

[A]

Let's pray that that is indeed the case. I'm looking forward to talking about or seeing the revival generation. I just googled it. It's up there. Yes, Revival generation. Just Google it. Also, the other website I was looking for was bravebooks Us. You can touch that or go to that. We'll put all this in the show notes. Ladies and gentlemen. Heidi, we're running out of time here. This has been a great conversation. You've been fabulous. Can I ask you to tell people your website and your podcast and where people can go to find more about you?

[B]

Sure. I'm lit up on the Internet like a Christmas tree. You can just find me@Heidi SaintJohn.com. i have a podcast, the Heidi St. John Podcast, coming up on 30 million downloads. I've been doing that for, I don't know, coming up on 10 years. I think all my books are available anywhere books are sold. Yeah. So you can find me online. And it's just been such a delight, Frank, to be here with you. Thank you for inviting me.

[A]

Oh, it's my pleasure. And I never had to use this button once. Wrong. Never had to use it. You were. You were perfect, Heidi. And I don't have to use this button either. Fired. I don't. Because you're not fired. We're going to have you on again.

[B]

I would love.

[A]

So it's been great. And just next time we can talk.

[B]

About my run for Congress. I want to hear that you're fired button again.

[A]

You ran for Congress. Well, you could. You could give us, like, the one minute version. What happened?

[B]

Yeah, I ran for Congress in 2022. I had in Washington state for the third congressional district. I didn't make it past the primary because President Trump endorsed against me. And actually, you know what I'm gonna say about that?

[A]

Wrong. He should have endorsed you.

[B]

He was wrong. He was wrong. But I had an opportunity to meet with President Trump. I spent about an hour by myself with him. It's an incredible story. This would have been in 2022. In 2022. No, 2021. And I have tremendous respect for him. I have tremendous respect for President Trump. He didn't endorse me. He endorsed a guy who ultimately wasn't going to be able to Win. And he didn't win. But that man loves the country, that's for sure. And he's a genuinely kind human being. It was such an extraordinary. I mean, imagine I had an hour with him all by myself in his office at Bedminster, at the club there, at the Trump Club there.

[A]

And were you seeking his endorsement?

[B]

Was that the. I went there, yeah. I went there, yes. I went there to talk to him about my run for Congress. And the G7 summit was happening at the time, and we were watching, sitting. He came in and he said, would you like a Coke? He offered me a Coke. Just. He's just a genuinely nice human being. And I think one of the interesting things about him is that he. And why he's been so successful is he really does care what other people think. And so we're watching Joe Biden shuffling across the stage at the G7 summit, right? The beginning of just an embarrassing, I think an embarrassing presidency. And President Trump looked at me and he said, what do you make of that? And I said, well, sir, I think he has the beginnings, if not full blown dementia, because my stepfather has it, and there's some certain mannerisms. He said, do you really think that? He asked me what I thought about world events. He asked me. He really wants to know what other people think. And he genuinely loves the country. And he endorsed against me, but I don't hold it against him. I think he's an extraordinary human being. I love what they're doing with the Faith Office. The Faith office. There's only 15 offices in the West Wing, and President Trump created the Faith Office and then put it in the West Wing. And they have done extraordinary things to advance religious liberty and roll back some of the, frankly, persecution that Christians have been experiencing, pro lifers, especially under the Biden administration. He's doing an incredible job, I think, for religious freedom. And that is true, and I'm a fan.

[A]

That's one of the things that I tell people who say politics aren't important. You know, just preach the gospel. I say, no way. If you think the gospel is important, you better think politics are important. If you don't think so, try and go to North Korea and preach the gospel. Right? 100% politics prevents you from doing it. So for no other reason, you ought to be involved. You ought to be involved to protect our religious freedom. And then secondly, we're commanded to love people. And the way you love people through politics is you put in laws in place to protect innocent people from evil that punish wrongdoers and protect innocent People from evil. And when you have an administration that doesn't do that, allows wrongdoers to go free or lets them in the country, you're not doing your job as the executive. Now, look, I understand why people don't like some of President Trump's behavior about, you know, insulting people on Twitter or wherever he does it. I get all that. Okay? But he's far better than what we had previously because he's actually carrying out the number one duty, according to the Bible, of ruler, and that is to punish wrongdoers and protect innocent people from evil. So people who, who would say that, oh, the Biden administration was doing that. I would say wrong. They were not doing that. And, and, and you need to do that. That's why the country said to Biden, you're fired. All right, so.

[B]

That'S my favorite part of our interview. Listen, I think. I think Christians belong in politics. And I'll say, of course.

[A]

We wouldn't even have a country if they weren't involved in politics.

[B]

We need to be involved. Christians need to be. But politics determines policy, and policy shapes the nation. Christians need to be in the policy making, shaping business, which is why I ran for Congress.

[A]

Amen. Well, you still have time to do it again. Washington is tough sledding, and if they're going to redistrict, it's going to be even worse.

[B]

Yeah. Washington is under communist rule right now. But I will tell you, I've grown up in the Pacific Northwest. I will continue to pray for the peace and the prosperity of the state in which I live because my grandchildren are growing up there. And I think that there are good days ahead for Washington state and for the rest of the country if Christians would get involved. There were so many people, I can't remember what the number was. It was like 1.3 million people who call themselves Christians in Washington state who did not vote in the last election. Did not vote. Listen, if Christians would vote, we wouldn't only win, Frank, we'd win in a landslide.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It wouldn't even be a question. But instead, we've got these mambi pambio. Christians don't involve politics and separation of church and state, which is a lie from the pit of hell. Right. It totally disregards what happened in this letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut. Has nothing do to. To do with Christians not being involved in politics and everything to do with Jefferson saying, listen, the government has no right and never will infringe upon your religious liberty. That's what he was trying to say, but the left has taken that and weaponized it against religious people, people of Christian faith in particular, and made it sound like we are not supposed to be involved in politics. What a crafty enemy to lob that against the church. And in so doing, we've lost the moral footing that we used to have in our country. And so I continue to believe it's very important. I'm a fan of President Trump. I wish sometimes he wouldn't tweet, but for the most part I'm over here going, well, somebody had to say it.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Well, the other thing is that I guess people only think that atheists are qualified to run the country. I don't know where they come up with that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We're not legislating religion, we're legislating morality. And that's what all laws do do.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We're not telling people they have to be Christians. We're telling people they have to behave a certain way to protect innocent people from evil. And if Christians don't impose the objective morality that Jefferson said was self evident, the Apostle Paul said is written on our hearts, then who is.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. You're not going to get there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By the way, do you live anywhere near Josh McPherson's church? Do you know who he is?

[B]

What's the church?

[A]

Wish I knew. He's, he does a podcast with Josh Howerton down in Dallas called the Research Podcast. And he's very, very good on the, the fact that Christians need to be involved 24 7, 365, every area of our lives, including how we vote.

[B]

So good.

[A]

And he's, he's up in that area. He's, I want to say like maybe two and a half hours kind of south, south east of Seattle.

[B]

Oh, well, then he might not be too far from me because I'm about three and a half hours south of Seattle.

[A]

Okay, I'll, I'll find his contact info and, or his church, send it to you.

[B]

Yeah, I would, I would love that.

[A]

Heidi, it's been a pleasure getting to know you here on this and thank you for your insights. We'll have you on again and so thank you so much and for all you're doing. Keep it up and maybe our, our little tribe here can pray for your continued cancer free diagnosis. That would be nice, huh?

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been a pleasure.

[A]

Absolutely. It's been great. All right, friends, it's been great being with you and Lord willing, we'll see you here next time. God bless.