348 Too Bored to Function: Why ADHD Brains Would Rather Do Anything Than Be Bored

Summary

Podcast Summary: I Have ADHD Podcast

Episode 348: Too Bored to Function – Why ADHD Brains Would Rather Do Anything Than Be Bored
Host: Kristen Carder
Guest: Dr. Marcie Caldwell
Date: November 4, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features a deep dive into the neuroscience, lived experience, and practical management of boredom in adults with ADHD. Host Kristen Carder and psychologist Dr. Marcie Caldwell unpack why boredom is excruciating for people with ADHD, how it manifests emotionally and physically, and offer evidence-based strategies to manage and work with this challenge. The episode aims to validate listeners’ experiences, clarify the underlying neurobiology, and provide concrete tools to navigate boredom in daily life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Validation: Boredom is a Real ADHD Struggle

• People with ADHD are truly more prone to boredom compared to neurotypicals, and the severity of ADHD exacerbates this tendency.

  • Quote:

    “People with ADHD are much more likely, much more prone to boredom… The more severe the ADHD, the more boredom prone your brain is going to be.”
    – Dr. Caldwell (06:41)

• The daily mundane tasks that don’t bother neurotypicals can feel insurmountable for ADHDers, zapping energy, executive functioning, and joy.

  • Quote:

    “For me, it’s like…the mundane things of life that everyone just accepts…these are the things that steal my energy. They steal my executive functioning. I can’t function…”
    – Kristen (07:25)

• Validation is essential: Accepting that this is a neurological truth, not a character flaw, is the first step.

  • Quote:

    “This is actual neurobiology. This is how this particular brain is made… we need to understand that before we can build systems that work for it.”
    – Dr. Caldwell (09:24)

2. Types of Boredom in ADHD (12:01)

• Apathetic Boredom:

  • Low energy, “blah” feeling—common in inattentive subtype.
  • Example: Laying on the couch, unable to engage in anything.

• Agitated Boredom:

  • High energy, restless, trapped, often with physical agitation—more common in hyperactive/impulsive subtype.
  • Example: Being trapped in a meeting, watching the clock, a “buzz” of needing out.

• Combined Type = Both!

  • Most people can experience both, but certain subtypes are more predisposed.

• Relatable Illustration:

  • Kristen describes feeling agitated and trapped as a stay-at-home mom, despite choosing and valuing the role, because of the lack of adult-level stimulation.

    “…nothing was really stimulating in a way that engaged my brain…constantly agitated because nothing was really stimulating…”
    (14:03)

3. The “Optimal Stimulation Zone” (18:14)

• Both neurotypical and ADHD brains have a window for ideal engagement; for ADHDers, it’s a much narrower, harder-to-hit “tightrope.”
  • ADHDers feel understimulated much of the time and quickly become overwhelmed with too much input.
  • Explains why ADHDers thrive in high-stimulation careers (ER, chef, entrepreneur, deadline-driven roles).

    “There’s a need for this right now, to be your best.”
    – Dr. Caldwell (23:34)

4. Why Delay Feels So Painful (24:25)

• Delay Aversion: ADHD brains are less able to tolerate delay—immediate rewards are heavily preferred, and waiting feels physically and emotionally distressing.

  • Classic Example:

    “I give you $5 now, or in six months I’ll mail you $7.”
    – Dr. Caldwell (25:00)
    “No, I’m good. I’ll take the five.”
    – Kristen

  • The discomfort of waiting (“the stress response system is activated”) is real and measurable.

    “There is actual physiological and emotional discomfort that is coursing through your body as you’re making this kind of decision.”
    – Dr. Caldwell (26:41)

• Implications: Delaying gratification is not a trivial matter for ADHDers, which makes future-oriented behaviors hard (saving money, working out, planning ahead).

• ADHD time perception: Present rewards feel heavier—like a scale already weighted toward NOW.

5. Strategies to Amplify Future Rewards (30:08)

• Visualization and Data:

  • Make the future more tangible—define and visualize future rewards.
  • Gathering data about how you feel after positive behaviors (am I glad I did that workout?) can help.

  “It’s a way of bringing that future to the present…creating a relationship with your future self.”
  – Kristen & Dr. Caldwell (31:40)

6. Boredom and the Stress Response (40:00)

• The ADHD brain doesn’t lack dopamine, but it can’t use it effectively (dopamine diffusion difference).

• Understimulation is perceived as a threat by the brain, triggering stress hormones (especially cortisol) and making boredom feel physically “like torture.”

  “…that chronic level of understimulation is experienced as a threat to the body and to the brain. It actually triggers our alarm centers …[and] feels bad…”
  – Dr. Caldwell (40:00)

• This growing stress can push ADHDers from agitated boredom to “apathetic,” or a state of total shutdown.

7. Default Mode Network & Ongoing Distraction (47:53, 50:23)

• Default Mode Network (DMN): When not task-engaged, the ADHD DMN (self-reflection, emotion, memory) doesn't “turn off” even during active tasks—"recess" is always happening in the background.

• Makes task focus akin to “teaching math class in the middle of a playground.”

  “For an ADHD brain, that default mode network doesn’t really turn off…recess is still going.”
  – Dr. Caldwell (50:23)

• Results in increased emotional experience and exhaustion after even simple tasks.

8. Practical Strategies for Managing Boredom (54:45)

a) Acceptance First:

• Start by accepting this as a real feature of your brain, not a personal failing.

b) Outsource and Eliminate Where Possible:

• Don’t be afraid to use resources (laundry service, bartering tasks, trading within relationships) to reduce “boring torture” tasks.

c) Gamification and Engagement-Building:

• Increase engagement with tasks, not by taking breaks (Pomodoro doesn’t work well for ADHD), but by making the task itself more interesting:
  • Turn chores into games, races, or challenges.
  • Example: Count how many times a boring coworker repeats themselves; time dishwashing.

“Research shows that breaks don’t work [for ADHD]…what seems to be more effective for boredom is trying to increase engagement.”
– Dr. Caldwell (56:12, 57:33)

d) Cognitive and Sensory Stimulation:

• Try doing work while moving (walking treadmill for writing).
• Leverage physical activity to raise stimulation and help focus.

e) Regulatory “Core Six” for ADHD Resilience (61:39):

1. Sleep (most important foundational element)
2. Exercise (acts similarly to medication)
3. Nutrition (steady blood sugar)
4. Medication
5. Meditation
6. Social Connection

“If you have more to spend, then you can call the kids off the swings and back to math class. If you go in exhausted and not having eaten...you’re going to be screaming at the kids on the swings within a minute.”
– Dr. Caldwell (61:11)

f) Remove Judgment and Practice Self-Compassion:

• Reducing “layered suffering” means not fighting reality (“this shouldn’t be so hard”), but instead working from what truly is.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives…but ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do, it’s a disorder of knowing exactly what to do but not being able to get yourself to do it.”
  – Kristen (16:19)

• “Boredom doesn’t sound like a huge emotion…but for someone with ADHD, it actually is a really visceral experience.”
  – Kristen (39:33)

• “So we are in this place that’s extra activated with this alarm center that’s extra activated. And the thing that’s supposed to come in and say like, oh no, no, it’s okay, chill out. That’s off.”
  – Dr. Caldwell (52:31)

• “It feels like torture…It is physically painful. It’s emotionally painful.”
  – Dr. Caldwell (52:58)

• “What can we get off the plate? What can we just stop feeling butchered by?”
  – Dr. Caldwell (55:04)

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Important Timestamps

• Boredom proneness research: 06:41–09:00
• Types of boredom: 12:01–15:40
• Optimal stimulation zone illustrated: 18:14–24:08
• Delay aversion/dopamine and decision making: 24:25–31:53
• Coping with boredom and stress response: 40:00–45:27
• Default mode network explained: 47:53–52:58
• Strategies to manage boredom & ADHD regulatory needs: 54:45–62:27

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Tone and Style

Conversational, validating, infused with humor and real-life anecdotes. The discussion is highly relatable, compassionate, and practical, with scientific concepts explained in plain language.

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Summary Takeaways

• Boredom is not a trivial frustration for people with ADHD—it is a neurologically-rooted, physically painful challenge that can affect every area of life.
• ADHD brains have a “narrow tightrope” of optimal stimulation and are both easily bored and quickly overwhelmed, leading to cycles of agitation and shutdown.
• Practical management involves removing as many “torture” tasks as possible, increasing engagement in remaining tasks by gamifying or stimulating them, and rigorously focusing on six regulatory pillars (sleep, exercise, nutrition, medication, meditation, connection).
• Self-acceptance and self-compassion are essential—boredom’s impact is real and managing it is a skill, not a moral failing.

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For listeners with ADHD: You’re not lazy, broken, or weak—your brain is genuinely “too bored to function” at times. Understanding this is your first step to thriving.

Transcript

[A]

This podcast is sponsored by Cure Hydration. You know that afternoon slump that hits around 2 or 3pm where your brain's like, oh, we're done here. Well, for my ADHD brain, that's the hardest part of my day. That's why I drink Cure Energy every afternoon. It's a clean plant based energy drink mix with natural caffeine and electrolytes so I get a boost and stay hydrated. No jitters, no crash, and just enough energy to get through the rest of the day without feeling like a zombie. And if you're like me and you don't drink enough water, Cure actually makes it easy and enjoyable. It tastes really good. My favorite flavors right now are peach tea and acai berry. They're crisp, not overly sweet, and they don't taste fake like a lot of other energy drinks. You know what I'm saying? Here's the thing. Staying hydrated isn't just about drinking water. You also need electrolytes, especially if you're low on dopamine and running on caffeine. That's why I love Cure. It's, it's clean, it works and I actually look forward to drinking it. For I have ADHD listeners, you can get 20% off your first [e-mail] I have ADHD with the code I have ADHD. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to tell them that you heard about Cure right here on the podcast. It really helps to support the show. Don't just drink more, upgrade it with Cure. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed? Can I make my site softer? Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler? Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your Sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now max out your savings. The more you buy, the more you save on beds, bases and more. Plus get free home delivery on any smart bed with base limited time. Check it out at a Sleep Number store near you [e-mail] today. Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast where it's all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I'm your host Kristen Carter and I have adhd. Let's chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder. I'll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B. Hey, what's up? This is Kristen Carter and you've tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. This is the episode that you have been waiting for. Adhder. This episode is the one all about boredom. Why is boredom such a thing for those of us with adhd? Why does it make us feel like we want to die? And can we do to overcome all of the tension and agitation that we feel when we know that we're up against boredom? I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. I am here today with friend of the podcast, Dr. Marcie Caldwell. And the last time she was on, we talked briefly about boredom and how our emotional pain centers light up when we are bored. And let me tell you that that section of the podcast and that clip on social media went completely viral. So we are here today to do an entire deep dive on this subject. Let me tell you a little bit about Marcy. Dr. Marcy Caldwell is a psychologist with over 20 years of experience and she's the founder and director of the nationally recognized center for adhd, which is right here in Philadelphia. She's a leading voice in translating ADHD understanding into practical strategies for both workplaces and families. As a sought after speaker and consultant, Dr. Marcy shares her insights with Fortune 500 companies and publications like the New York Times and the Huffington Post. Grounded in her professional expertise and her own life in a family full of neurodiversity, she is a passionate advocate dedicated to creating systems that allow unique strengths to thrive. And she is here with us for the next hour to talk all about boredom. Marcie, welcome back to the show.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.

[A]

I'm so glad to have you. I love that you're just a Philly mom in the burbs raising kids, neurodivergent kids. I feel like there's so many things that we connect on and I just, I love our chit chats. I love that we get to have lunch after this.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And just hang out. It's the best. Okay, so the last time that you were on, we chatted just briefly about boredom. And that clip has 3 1/2 million views on Instagram right now, which is wild. Did you have a panic attack when all of that started, like, blowing up A little bit?

[B]

Yeah, maybe more than a little bit. Because, you know, the thing about clips is that you can't get into it. Right. And there is so much more nuance to the subject and I worry about accuracy and I was worried that it wasn't coming across with kind of the nuance and the accuracy that I would want it to and that I would want people to fully understand. So I'm really excited to be here to dig in.

[A]

You're like, okay, let's take a whole hour because that 30 second clip is probably not enough.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The clips like that, and it's so funny because that's the world that we live in right now, is like the world of things being clipped and being sensational and going viral and we're never getting the full context. That's why. Yeah. I'm so, so glad that you are here to talk about this. So let's just dive right in.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Boredom is such a huge issue with people with adhd, for people with adhd. And when I talk about it on the podcast, when I talk about on social media, when I talk about it in focused, it.

[B]

It.

[A]

It is just. It touches something in our souls because I think that we feel like nobody else struggles with this as much as I do. And, like, this is such a big issue. So what does the research actually tell us about boredom? Like, can we. Can we talk about boredom proneness in adhd? Why is this such a thing for us?

[B]

Yeah, so it is. It is scientifically a thing. It's. People with ADHD are much more likely, much more prone to boredom. Sorry. And the more severe the adhd, the more boredom prone your brain is going to be. So it is a direct connection. And we see a very big difference in terms of boredom proneness in the ADHD population compared to a neurotypical population.

[A]

So we actually are more prone to boredom than a neurotypical.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Okay. That makes so much sense because the things that bother me about life just don't bother my husband or my best friend. Like, they're just kind of like, yeah, this is just the way it is. And I'm like, but what? Like, for me, it's like, I feel like the mundane things of life that everyone just accepts and they're just like, this is just a part of life. And I'm just like, these are the things that steal my energy. They steal my executive functioning, they steal my capacity, they steal my joy. I can't function because there are bills to pay or there are dishes or there's an annoying project at work that just is like, it has to be done, but it seems pointless and it is so boring.

[B]

And literally it'll do all of those things. So when we. And I know we'll get into it when we really get into the neurobiology of why this is happening. It is literally doing all of those things. It is sealing your energy. It is draining you. It is sealing your executive functioning capacity. It is sealing your joy. It is doing all of those things. And the ubiquity of things that bore an ADHD brain are plentiful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It is all the everyday things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there are a lot of everyday things in life. So many.

[A]

Like, adulting is so boring.

[B]

It's really boring. Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I just want to complain. It feels so validating, though, to hear you say that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such a relief for you to say, like, no, you're not making this up. This is not just like. Just you, or this is not just like, you need to get over it necessarily. Obviously, we need to cope with it, but we first need to acknowledge that it is a thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why I'm always digging into the neuroscience behind things, because I think that that's really important. I think that really we need to start with an understanding of, like, no, no, this is a real thing. This isn't a. You know, I'm just lazy. I'm just, you know, all the things that. All the stories that people tell themselves or are told over the years. Right. Like, this is actual neurobiology. This is how this particular brain is made. And there are some cool things about how this particular brain is made, but there are also some really painful things about how this particular brain is made in this world. Right. And we need to understand that before we can build systems that work for it, before we can think about how we're gonna adapt and change the environment and adapt and change how we think about all this. We need to understand what's actually happening here, and then we can go do all those wonderful things. Definitely, all those things should be done.

[A]

That's so true. Because when I work with clients, the first step has to be, this is a thing. And if I don't accept it, if I don't accept it as, like, okay, this is just harder for me, then instead of acceptance, what I'm doing is saying, this shouldn't be so hard. And I cannot tell you the millions of times that I have told myself, this shouldn't be so hard. Kristen, you're smart. What is wrong with you? This shouldn't be so hard for you. And what I hear you saying is like, no, no, it should be this hard. It is. Is this hard. And so, like, starting from that place is so validating.

[B]

Yeah. It's that we add in this layer of suffering really? Right. When we're fighting with what is and when we can start to understand and accept what is, then we're kind of freed up to go do something about it. Yes. But we can't do anything about it if we're fighting that it actually is a thing.

[A]

Yeah. Or if we're just like, this should be easier. This should be. This shouldn't be so hard. This should be easier for you if you were a better person, if you manage your time better, if you weren't so lazy. Whatever. Fill in the blank with like whatever word you listener are telling yourself. Like if you weren't such a hot mess, then this would be easier for you.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Oh gosh, it's so good. I didn't realize that there are different types of boredom. Can you walk us through that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So research has shown kind of two main categories of boredom. So one is apathetic and the other. And one is agitated. And so apathetic boredom is kind of the like laying on the couch scrolling blah kind of boredom. Right. Just kind of like, ugh, nothing's appealing, nothing's interesting. I can't get engaged in anything. And so it's a very kind of low energy kind of boredom. And apathetic boredom is more common for folks with inattentive adhd. The other one, agitated boredom, is in some ways it's opposite. Right. Triggered by the exact same thing but felt very differently. And it tends to be as its name is, agitated. Right. It's this like keyed up, like oh my God, when is this going to end? I have to get out of here. There's often like a trapped feeling to often occurs when you are kind of trapped. Right. Like when you're in a conversation that's not capturing your interest or you're in a meeting or you're in line or something like that. And so there's a lot of physical energy in it and it tends to kind of, you know, you tend to feel kind of snappy. Right. And like can get snippy with people in that agitated boredom. And, and it is more common for folks with hyperactive impulsive type. If you're combined type, you get both lucky. Lucky you can feel either, you know, everybody feels both of them. Right. Neurotypical adhd, you know, these are true for all people. They're just more common and more prone with the different subtypes.

[A]

When you talk about agitated boredom, what I think about is me being mostly a stay at home mom, like working very part time with three little Kids and feeling completely trapped and just like constantly agitated because nothing was really stimulating in a way that engaged my brain. I loved my kids. I was choosing to stay home with them. That was a values based choice for me. And yet I felt completely trapped by it and was on that agitation constantly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that's such a, such a hard one for moms because, you know, we do, we choose it, we want to do this thing and it just isn't engaging. And there's really nothing you can do to make it engaging. Because what's engaging for a two or three or four year old just as an engaging for an adult brain? And the judgment, right? Like, here we are again with that extra layer of suffering. That judgment piece kind of interferes and, and creates so much pain before we can even like begin to think about how, how can we solve this.

[A]

I also remember, like, prior to coaching, working in jobs that were not as meaningful to me, were not as engaging, and just watching the clock and feeling that buzz of like, get me out of here. Didn't make me good at my job.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

No, no. This is why I had to stop teaching piano lessons. This is what. So I have a music degree, which is, of course I do, because I have adhd, right? So I have a music degree. And I was like, I'm gonna teach voice and piano lessons and like, I'm gonna have this music studio. And I did that and I had all of these students and then I would sit through those lessons and be like, omg, if I hear this song one more time, I'm gonna hurt someone. And I was like, maybe this is not the career choice for me, but that agitation of just like 30 minutes of a 7 year old playing the same piano piece that they have for the last three weeks because they haven't practiced that 30 minutes feels like seven years. Yeah, that's so funny. Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make a list, you cross things off the list in order, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, we know what to do. But ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It's a disorder of knowing exactly what to do, but not being able to get yourself to do it. That's why I created focused. It's an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I'm a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019, I've coached over 4,000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from hot mess express to grounded and thriving, I'll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior, and accept yourself, flaws and all. And with this foundation, we'll build the skills to improve your life with adhd. And not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you're surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr. Ned Hallowell says, healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you're an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused to learn more. That's ihaveadhd.com focused to check it out. Okay, so what is the optimal stimulation zone?

[B]

Okay, so if we think about. If. If you're. If you can imagine kind of a graph, right, and we have simulation on one side and engagement mapped against it, right? There's an optimal amount of stimulation that engages any brain, right? And when we look at that, if we were to really graph it, it actually looks like what's called a bell curve, right? Which is basically just the top part of a bell. And so for neurotypical brains, they're bored if there's not enough stimulation. And then it starts to increase and increase, increase. It gets to, like, a peak level of engagement. They're super happy, their brains are happy, and then it starts to get too much, and then they get overwhelmed. Right?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that normal curve, you know, is kind of nice and broad, and they have, like, this lovely large window of optimal engagement that's so happy for them. So lovely for an ADHD brain also, that we can map it the exact same way. It's still a bell curve, but it's like it's been squished, and it's also been, like, moved up a little bit, right? So it goes board, board, board, board, board, board, board, board, board. Oh, now we got some engagement. Oh, now we went over. And now we're too stimulated, right? So it very quickly hits it, like, crosses that threshold, right? And there's a. We need a whole lot more stimulation to get an ADHD brain engaged. And so, you know, what can be somewhat engaging for a neurotypical brain, and they can, you know, get some nice little dopamine flying around because they're somewhat engaged. It's Going to do nothing for an ADHD brain, and they're gonna feel understimulated. And understimulated as we're gonna get into is a bad place for an ADHD brain to be.

[A]

It's the bad place.

[B]

It's the bad place. Overstimulated is also a bad place. And so it's this very narrow band. And so I think of it as almost like a little, like, tightrope walker on top of this little bell curve. Just kind of like, are we gonna stay here?

[A]

Is this why ADHDers often make great entrepreneurs and great like, ER doctors or nurses in. One of my neurodivergent kids is talking about not as a career, but as an interim being an emt, I'm like, that's actually a great idea for him because having that burst of adrenaline, having that, like, you know he's gonna be. I know in shocking situations, I think he's gonna thrive. I really do.

[B]

Yeah. The careers that ADHDers thrive in often involve this kind of element, right? This, like, heightened stimulation on a regular basis. So, yeah, ER docs, paramedics, chefs.

[A]

You.

[B]

Know, anything with this kind of high intensity. The other place that you'll find it is with deadlines, right? Anything that has lots of deadlines or lots of intensity is going to be a place that it's going to get that ADHD brain into that optimal zone of. Of engagement, which is where it feels really good.

[A]

Yes, it feels good.

[B]

It's where hyperfocus can turn on. But even if hyperfocus hasn't turned on, it still feels good because the brain's engaged and, and it's moving and we have lots of dopamine going on because there's lots of motivation happening. And it just. The sensation of it is good.

[A]

So for me, like, being here with you, cameras rolling. Dan, the producer, behind the scenes there, like, this is a production and I love it. Like, I could sit here all day and interview. Like, I wish this was a bigger part of my job because it does feel so good when I get to coach and I have a group coaching program, so I'm coaching one on one. It's just me and the other person. However, there's 50 to 100 people on the call, chatting in the chat. And I know that, like, this isn't just one on one. This is like, we're helping so many more people. Those types of things just like, light me. I could do that all day, every day. Ask me to write an email or respond to. To an email. Like that, for me, is Like, I would rather I would. I don't want to. I can't. I don't. Please don't make me.

[B]

Yeah, well, there's no production crew. Right? Like, yes.

[A]

And nobody cares other than the one person. Yeah.

[B]

It's the pressure.

[A]

So good.

[B]

And that's why those careers are big too. It's the pressure. Pressure. Right. There's. There's a need for this right now. To be your best.

[A]

I have to be on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's so true.

[A]

It's. And I messed up at the beginning, and I was just like, okay, we gotta do it again. Right. Like, I messed up the intro. I said, like, a weird word. You guys don't get to see that part because we have an editor. But. But even those types of things get me even more engaged. Cause it's like. No, no, no. You. You have to. You have to do better. You have to be better.

[B]

Yeah. Oof.

[A]

Gosh, I love. I could talk about that all day. Okay, so talk to me about the theories of boredom, attention theory, reduced information processing, and even links to difficulty tolerating delay.

[B]

So there are those three, and there are more. There are a lot of theories of boredom. And the truth is, as with anything, like, brains are complex, and they're probably all true to some degree. Interesting. And we can even see how they work together. And these theories are kind of talking about different aspects of the whole phenomenon. Let's talk about delay first. Let's do it. Okay, so I don't have my wallet on me, but let's just pretend.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I give you $5 now, or in six months I'll mail you $7.

[A]

No, I'm good. I'll take the five.

[B]

Okay, $5 now. $10 in six months.

[A]

Five now.

[B]

Okay, 15.

[A]

Okay, now we're talking.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, if we make it 20, then I'd be like, cool.

[B]

Definitely. Okay. Okay. So that right there is the delay tolerance. Right. Like what we're doing is we're measuring something now versus something later. $7 is better than $5, right? As a 10 or 15 or 20. But that $5 comes with. I'm sorry, that $7 comes with delay. And so how much is the discomfort of delay worth? Right.

[A]

Oh, that's good.

[B]

And for an ADHD brain, it's worth more. Yeah. So everybody prefers $5 over $7.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Neurotypical ADHD doesn't matter. Everybody will say, give me the five now. But a neurotypical brain, usually around like 10ish dollars, will say, actually, why don't you. Why don't you send that in the mail. And whereas ADHD brains tend to follow along more in the like 15 to 20 kind of range. Right.

[A]

So I just proved your theory.

[B]

You did beautifully. It was lovely. Thank you.

[A]

I was like, make it 20 and we have a deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

So this is an example of this discomfort around delay. And when we look at that, when we look at that kind of scientifically, neurologically, we actually see that that kind of delay is creating not just emotional discomfort, which it does, but it actually creates a physiological discomfort because it activates the stress response system. And so there is actual physiological and emotional discomfort that is coursing through your body as you're making this kind of decision.

[A]

Okay. This has so many implications because there are so many good things, so many good things that if we were just willing to delay that pleasure, delay that dopamine, we would be able to get them. And yet it is excruciating. And you're saying, I'm not making that up.

[B]

No, you're not making that up. That is very real. There are. And. And that's only actually a piece of that puzzle because there are other things going on that are making the present feel stronger and more real and more vibrant and like it needs to be done now. And so this is a super uneven, I call it kind of the uneven scales of time. It's as if, you know, if we were on these, one of these old fashioned scales. Right. It's as if there is already a weight down on the now. And that later has to be really freaking heavy before it even starts to be even, let alone. We're going to choose that?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, 100%.

[B]

And guess what is, Marcy, tell me, guess what is going to create future pleasure? Right. Things that are boring, things that aren't super exciting right now.

[A]

Working out, saving your money, eating healthy, working ahead on a project for work.

[B]

Yep. Cleaning your room, organizing your taxes. Right. Like all these things that will feel good later for sure. But that later is a later B, pretty amorphous. Like, what does that later actually. Like, when is it and what is it going to feel like? What does that look like? Like, am I even going to register it? Because that's the other thing about ADHD brands. They tend not to register positive things quite as strongly. And so I was like, no, I'll just eat the donut and not.

[A]

Yes. Oh, okay. So how do we give more weight to the side of the scale that is the delay, the future, the things that will ultimately help us to, like, grow and Develop and become the people that we want to be.

[B]

Yeah. So it's. It's. Let's just start. This is. It's really hard. And it. What I often ask people to do is to really try to do as much visualization about that future as possible. Right. And let's define it, let's clarify it, let's set goals. That's part of what goal setting is. It is creating a defined picture of the future so that we can at least bring it a little bit more into the present to weigh it a little bit more evenly. It's still going to be. We're still going to be fighting, but we could make it slightly more even, slightly more present when we say, I'm going to go to the gym now. Because I know. Because I ask myself, and I tell my clients to do this all the time. I ask them to ask themselves after the workout, right after the workout, and then if they can, maybe an hour later, am I glad I did it? Not like, how do I feel? But just, am I glad I did it? Because when you get that data right, you can then say to yourself, I'm always glad I do it. I'm always glad. I'm 100% happy that even though I was exhausted and didn't feel like it, I did the workout. Right. It's a way of bringing that future to the present.

[A]

So good. So it's creating a relationship with your future self.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I love that we. This is such a good reminder for me as a coach, because I've talked about this here and there, but, like, this is something I should be talking about all the time with my clients.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, I've done this with my. My son as well. Kind of like when he's gone through difficult transition or something. I've had him kind of play around with this concept of, like, okay, well, if you could talk to your former self, you know, prior to going to this new school or a new camp or whatever, what would you say? Right? And he kind of comes up with a little bit of a dialogue. And I'm like, okay, well, so, you know, in September, you're going to be starting a new class, and that might feel similar. How do you want to talk to yourself then? Right. Like, we can do this dialogue with our future and past selves. That does do that. It kind of brings that future a little bit more forward and uses data, your own data. Right. That is meaningful to kind of try to even these scales a little bit more.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by AG1. And you already know how I start every morning with AG1. It's my one non negotiable. Well, that and coffee. Let's be honest. But lately I've been realizing that my morning routine is only half the story. Because what I do at night, how I wind down or don't wind down, hello, completely shapes how I feel tomorrow. So I've added something more new to my nighttime ritual. Agz. It's the new evening drink from the team behind AG1. And it's gonna be a game changer for you. It's gonna help you to transition out of the chaos of the day. You have adhd. I have adhd. We both know how winding down at night is so hard. I mean, it's always been so tough for me. My brain just doesn't know how or when to turn off. But AGZ helps me shift into rest mode. It's a melatonin free formula made with clinically studied herbs, adaptogens and minerals, all which support sleep quality and cognitive function. Oh, I love it. It's so good. I drink mine warm about an hour before bed, and it has this like subtle herb flavor that just feels part of a cozy nighttime ritual. No sugar, no artificial flavors, just calm and earthy. It's like an earthy taste and it signals to my brain, hey, it's time to chill. Time to rest. It's time to turn off. If you've ever tried magnesium or sleep supplements before, this one's different. It's gentle, not groggy. I wake up feeling actually rested, not like I need three cups of coffee just to function. So now my routine feels complete. AG1 to start my day, AGZ to end it. It's like a full circle support for my body and brain energy and focus when I need it, calm and recovery when I don't. Because honestly, how I sleep is going to define how I show up. And that's true for you too. So if you're ready to turn down the stress and focus on the rest, head to drink. Ag1.com IH have ADHD to get a free frother with your first purchase of AgZ. That's DrinkAg1.com I have ADHD. Go check it out. Since ADHD is a developmental disorder, are we. Would you say that we're kind of like trapped in maybe like the teen or the preteen years as far as like delaying gratification and understanding, like impact of future stuff? I've been thinking a lot about how ADHD as a developmental disorder means and this is not fleshed out beautifully. So I'm sorry, this question's gonna be clunky.

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

Hang with me, everyone. I will get there, I swear. Since ADHD is a developmental disorder, that means that we're missing out on some of the key developmental processes that allow us to like develop at a typical rate. So in a 30 year old body, in a 40 year old body, I might have the ability to delay gratification that a 12 year old would have. Is that kind of how I can think about it or do it the end. Was that enough? Do you get it?

[B]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

Okay, listener, are you still with me? I'm so sorry. Hang with me.

[B]

So I get where you're going with it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And, but we do see that the delays that we see in terms of the developmental processes of the brain, they do tend to kind of catch up at a certain point. And sometimes that's catching up to, to your age level peers.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Sometimes that's just catching up to where an ADHD brain is going to be.

[A]

Sure. And is that dependent on the person?

[B]

And it's dependent on the person and.

[A]

The severity of the adhd, the cognitive skills, all of that.

[B]

The more severe the adhd, the more boredom prone you are. Sure. The more delay aversive you are.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so it's not kind of a one to one in that way. We do use that kind of language when we're talking to parents of kids because it's a nice shorthand for helping parents understand. Okay, yes, I have an 11 year old, but I need to kind of treat him like an 8 year old in these certain respects. Not in all respects, but in these certain respects I need to kind of scaffold his executive functioning like I would for his eight year old brother.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But it gets really kind of murky and messy when we're, when we're talking about adults and even late adolescence, it gets pretty murky.

[A]

That makes sense because I do feel as though I am finally in an adult brain and body. So I'm 44, which I think is a great age. It's my favorite age so far. And I do feel like I don't struggle with this the way that I used to. And it used to be a massive struggle for me. And it's not that I've done any particular deep work on this one thing, but I do feel like I'm finally at the point where I'm like, okay, I can pay my taxes, I can save for retirement. I'm not necessarily tempted to Blow that money somewhere else. Does that make sense? So I do feel like. Okay, I feel like kind of a grownup now. It took me until I was 40. Um, but, yeah, I feel like I finally got there.

[B]

Do you feel like it is inherently easier for you now, or is it that you're not judging yourself about the discomfort of it?

[A]

Interesting. I actually do feel like it's inherently easier, but I have done a ton of work on discomfort, so that may have naturally, like, bled over into that. That is something that I had to work so hard on. Is boredom, tolerating boredom. Getting used to the feeling in my body, not panicking, not making it mean that I needed to change course immediately. Like, oh, this is going to come with boredom. And if I get used to that feeling, then I can do the thing that I care about, which actually is a great transition. Because boredom doesn't sound like a huge emotion. It's not like fear or anxiety or like depression, like, these emotions that we give a lot of weight to. But for someone with adhd, it actually is a really visceral experience. Can you talk about how the feeling of boredom is tied to cortisol? Yeah, because that's a big deal.

[B]

It's a big deal. Yeah, for sure. So there. Okay, so there are a bunch of kind of links here. And what. So the ADHD brain is. People talk about it as being dopamine deficient. That's actually not true. It has maybe just as much dopamine as any other brain. What's different about it is that the signaling that dopamine does doesn't. It doesn't signal as well. And so I often call it a dopamine diffusion difference. And so that dopamine diffusion difference is causing less dopamine to kind of be well utilized. And that is experience as under stimulation. Because dopamine is about motivation. Right. It's not about pleasure, it's about motivation. It's about drive. It's about the thing that gets us to do the thing to get us excited about the reward that might come on the other side of it. It's not about the reward itself. Right. And so when we don't have that, then we're not getting engaged. We're not kind of pushing to the thing. And we then can't really engage in our environment. Right. The stimulation that is coming in isn't engaging. It's not hooking us in. And so we have this kind of chronic level of understimulation. And what we know now is that that chronic level of understimulation is experienced as a threat to the body and to the brain. And so it actually triggers our alarm centers in our brains to then say, this is. This isn't good, guys, we got. We gotta do something here. We gotta get something moving. We need to be engaged. And, you know, makes. Makes total evolutionary sense. Right. We should be engaged in our environment, make sure we're safe. We're not engaged, and we gotta. We gotta get something going. And so those alarm bells go off. That stress response feels bad, right? Yes. That stress response means that our heart's beating faster. It means that our muscles are tense. It means that we're sweating. It means that we have cortisol going on. Right. Like, all of that is happening, and it's keying you up. And if you're keyed up but not engaged in something that is painful. Yeah. And so that's. That's part of what's happening inside the brain, and that is what's kind of triggering this whole experience. That is particularly what's triggering the agitated type of boredom. Right. And sometimes we actually get so much of that that we're just like, shut down. And then we can switch over into apathetic boredom where it's just kind of like, check out. Yep, I'm done. Yeah. And it's just one of, kind of the adaptations to do that kind of checkout and turn it off.

[A]

I mean, that. I just feel like you've explained my life story. This is my life story. And even now, writing a book, I can sense myself getting into that agitated state. Even though it's meaningful work, it's hella boring. Writing is the worst, as you know. And it's just that feeling of like, I'm not okay. I need to get out of here. Like, I feel that sometimes. And I will. I'll just go for a walk. I'll go get a snack. How many snacks? I mean, the snacks while I am trying to write. They're crunchy, they're loud. The gum chewing, the snapping. My husband cannot be in the same room. He is like, I need to leave because it's noisy, but it's just trying to get my. Like, my brain keyed in.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so I. I'm often recommending, you know, have you tried a. A walking treadmill?

[A]

Not. I do have one, but I. I haven't tried that while writing.

[B]

Yeah. Any type of movement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is going to help a lot. Right. Because think about the amount of stimulation that's happening. Right. You're getting the kinesthetic stimulation, you're Getting actual physical stimulation with your feet and your brain's having to kind of do a little work to keep you walking and writing at the same time. It's a little bit of a balancing act and so it can do wonders for engagement.

[A]

I'm going to do it Friday. When's that? Tomorrow when I have a six hour block of writing. I've heard people say walking is bilateral stimulation and that's very good for the brain. So like. Yeah, that's amazing. Okay, so I think what you just described with the cortisol and. And the like it triggering this like. I gotta get out of here. This agitation. Is that what you describe as borcher? So what a word.

[B]

Isn't it a great word? It's not my word. I wish I could take credit for it.

[A]

It's a great word.

[B]

That is the wonderful pen holderness word. And yes it is exactly that. It is that I'm stuck here and I feel so keyed up. It's like being a horse, you know, ready at the starting gate. Right. But there's no race, there's no, there's no potential release here. Right. Like I'm just stuck and have to handle that physical and emotional experience and in a vacuum. Right. Because it's also. Nothing else is engaging except for this experience. And this is the other thing that we notice is this kind of cycle that happens where you're bored. It activates stress response which then gets kind of focused in on. And now you additionally can't engage in your environment so you get more bored, so you get more stress response and it just continues until you finally just check out. You either check out or you get the hell out of there.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you turn to alcohol or porn or gambling or something that is extremely stimulating. That like. And it is a release. It takes the edge off.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

But then that circles back to the delaying short term pleasure in exchange for the long term reward. It's like I just spent all of my money on FanDuel because I couldn't freaking write my book.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right. It was just like there goes my retirement account.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Okay, can we dig in just for a couple minutes on the brain side of things like the neurobiology of boredom. Have we gone deep enough with that yet?

[B]

So there is another piece to it. So we talked about the kind of the stress response link. The other piece to it is something called the default mode network. So our brain is made up of lots of different components. Right. And they work together in these different networks doing different things. And so one of them is called the default mode network. And the default mode network is the, the different parts of our brain working together when we're not engaged in any particular task. When our brains are not engaged, we might be doing something but we're not actually mentally engaged. And, and it includes brain regions like the amygdala, which is kind of the alarm center, like the hippocampus, which is kind of our memory center. It's where our brains go to do kind of. I call it recess. It's where our brains just want to kind of go. You know, I want to go down the slide now, I want to go swing on swings and it can just kind of flit and float wherever it wants to go. And like any recess, it can also be kind of a dark place. Right. Because it has memory and emotion kind of tied up in there. And self reflection is the other thing that's very much involved in the default mode network. And there's a lot of rumination that can happen when we're in default mode network, but it's compelling. It's recess. The thing about ADHD brains versus neurotypical brains is that with these networks there's often this correlation where one turns on and the other one turns off. For a neurotypical brain, when default mode network turns on then it's anti correlated one which is called task positive network turns off. Task positive network is where we are engaged. It's when you're like locked and loaded doing your writing and you're like really in it. Right. And you haven't had a thought about what snack to get yet. And the thing about so, so those kind of work, you're either in one or the other for a neurotypical brain. For an ADHD brain, that default mode network doesn't really turn off. And so even when task positive network.

[A]

Is on, recess is still going.

[B]

Recess is still going.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is so real.

[B]

My son went to the school in the city for kindergarten and his classroom had floor to ceiling glass windows that looked onto the playground.

[A]

That is the ADHD brain. Yeah, that is the picture.

[B]

It's like trying to teach a bunch of 8 year olds to do math while sitting in the middle of a playground.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you might be able to get some of that across for sure. But it's going to take a lot of work, a lot of effort and there's going to be a lot of like, no, come on Johnny, get off the swings and come back to class. Right. So it's part of why a big part of why ADHD brains are so distractible, it's also part of why emotions are such a big deal for ADHD brains. Because that whole network is a very emotional network. And. And boredom happens when we're in default mode network.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we are in default mode network. That task positive usually isn't on when we're bored. And in that default mode network is the amygdala, which is the alarm center. So default mode network also when we're bored is overactive. So that's one of the things that we see in MRI studies. It is more active than it's when it's just kind of hanging out, which means the whole system is more active. So that alarm center is more active. Add to that one of the anti correlated. So one of the things that turns off when it turns on is called the insular region. And the insular region is all about kind of tamping things down. And like, it's okay, guys, let's just, let's calm it down.

[A]

Soothing.

[B]

Yeah. And so that actually turns off when. Yeah, great. When we're in default mode network. So here we are in this place that's extra activated with this alarm center that's extra activated. And the thing that's supposed to come in and say like, oh, no, no, it's okay, chill out. That's off.

[A]

Dang.

[B]

So that stress response gets amplified and amplified and amplified. Right. And as we said, it goes in a cycle. So it gets more bigger and bigger and bigger and is painful. It is physically painful. It's emotionally painful. It feels like torture.

[A]

Yes. And does it make us more exhausted afterwards? Because I feel like I get so much more tired from typical tasks than most neurotypical people.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because even if you just think about the physiology of a stress response. Right. Our muscles are tight, our heart is beating fast. It's like we're running a race. But you're not. You're just sitting there doing your taxes. Yeah. Right. And it's also cognitively really challenging because you're teaching math class in the middle of the recess. And so you're having to keep calling the kids back over to keep at.

[A]

You don't just get to teach the class. You also have to multitask and like get everybody back.

[B]

Yep, yep. So it's going to take longer, it's going to be more exhausting and you're going to feel more fried and just kind of done.

[A]

Yes. Okay, so what do we do? I think we touched on at the very beginning that understanding it accepting it as a part of who we are is like paramount, fundamental. We have to start there. But then what?

[B]

So yes, totally. Number one place is let's do some acceptance with the acceptance now. Then we can say, okay, well, are some of these things maybe just things that I don't do? Right. Like can we outsource some of this stuff?

[A]

Yes. Laundry service.

[B]

Laundry service.

[A]

If we have the money, spend the money on that kind of stuff.

[B]

And if you don't have the money, can you barter in some ways. Right. Because guess what? ADHD brains love to do things that other people don't love to do. Right. Right. And so can you do some kind of trade off in your marriage or with friends or whatever to utilize your skills and utilize other people's skills? Right. So I always think first step is what can we get off the plate? What can we just stop feeling butchered by.

[A]

Yes. Love.

[B]

And then it's a matter of, okay, now we're left with kind of the have tos and. And the want tos. And so how are we going to get this done? Right. And that's where we can kind of put in like a whole bunch of different, different scaffoldings in. So one of the things that we want to do and research shows that breaks don't work.

[A]

So wait, pause. What?

[B]

So a break from a torture item doesn't really help because it's not actually. You then have to re. Engage with the, with the thing that you're feeling tortured by. It took you forever to get started. Started.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now you're there. And I'm not saying, you know, do your taxes for 12 hours straight. I'm, you know, be reasonable, but hire an accountant.

[A]

Be reasonable.

[B]

Exactly. But it, but this kind of idea of like, do 15 minutes and then take a five minute break. And then do 15 minutes and then take a 5 minute break.

[A]

Like the Pomodoro method.

[B]

The Pomodoro method. There is a lot of research that, that doesn't work that well for ADHD brains.

[A]

I think this is breaking news. I think this is the clip, Marcy, that you're going to be emailing me about.

[B]

Like, I'm going to have a panic attack tomorrow.

[A]

Wow, this is huge.

[B]

And that is because that boredom.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Also is aversive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And now we're going to build up a whole bunch of avoidance to the aversive thing. And we're going to have to spend a whole lot of time re engaging and then we're going to have to, you know, then be in It. And then all of a sudden, it's gonna be over because we're gonna have to take another break, right? What seems to be more effective for boredom is trying to increase engagement, right? So rather than being like, this is just dumb, and it's always gonna be dumb, and I just have to, you know, torture myself through it. It's. How can I actually engage with this thing? So this is where, like, gamification comes in. And you can do gamification in, you know, app form or whatever. There are 5 million of them, but you can just do it yourself, too, right? If you're having a conversation with somebody who tends to repeat themselves over, over and over again, right? Like, you can count. How many times are they repeating themselves?

[A]

Make it a drinking game.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You just. You make it a game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you make it something that you can engage with. Better yet, you. You see how many questions you can ask that person in a period of time, right? And actually. Actually engage. And you can create these kinds of games with lots of different things, right? You can time yourself. You can say, okay, I think I can do this pile of dishes in five minutes. Let me set the timer and go, right? Let me see if I can beat the five minutes. Instead of reward systems. If you do beat it, right, you can kind of create a whole game around things. And so that's one way, but the other way is just kind of cognitive engagement, right? Like, how can I be interested in this thing? You know? So I. I have to do the spreadsheet, and spreadsheets bore me to tears. But if I'm trying to figure out, like, oh, but can I make this. Equate this cell, like, of a formulation and make it kind of work for me, and, you know, like. And then I go searching for, like, how to do that, and now I'm engaged right Now I'm actually like, oh, I want to do this thing because I want to, like, figure out how this works. So when we try to get engaged and increase that engagement, that's really helpful. It's also. And this is where people want to roll their eyes, and I totally get it. It's also all of the regulatory things, right? All of the things that increase our regulatory capacity, and they are primarily the six things of sleep, exercise, nutrition, medication, meditation, connection. And if we get those, that we're full, right? And we have more to spend.

[A]

So true.

[B]

And if you have more to spend, then you can call the kids off of the swings and back to math class. If you go in exhausted and not having eaten and not having exercise and not having taken your meds. Right. You're going to be screaming at the kids on the swings, you know, within a minute.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's about kind of building up the resources, trying to manufacture engagement and getting rid of as many of the things as possible. Yes.

[A]

Would you repeat those core six regulatory things for us? Because I think that's really important. We could do a whole episode on each one of those, but just repeat them for us.

[B]

Yes. So research shows these are kind of the top things. There are other things, but these are kind of the top ones with the most research backing for them that increase regulatory capacity for ADHD brains. They are sleep. Sleep will get you to your kind of natural max. Right. Exercise will give you some extra. Exercise is really doing a lot of what ADHD meds do and nutrition particularly. We're talking about good, even blood sugar. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about nutrition for ADHD brains. Yep. And medication, meditation and connection.

[A]

So good. What a perfect place to end. It's so good. Marci, thank you so much. This episode is jam packed. I'm so glad that you came back and turned a 30 second clip into where are we at? Like an hour and 15 minutes. I just, I love it.

[B]

It was great fun. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, thank you so much. Hey, if you liked this episode, don't forget to rate it. Don't forget to click that subscribe button. Don't forget to give this podcast a little bit of love. Thanks so much for being here. We're going to see you next week.

[B]

Bye. Bye.

[A]

Hey, adhder. I see you. I know exactly what it's like to feel lost, confused, frustrated and like no, no one out there really understands the way that your brain works. That's why I created Focused. Focused is my monthly coaching program where I lead you through a step by step process of understanding yourself, feeling better, and creating the life that you know you're meant for. You'll study, be coached, grow, and make amazing changes alongside of other educated professional adults with ADHD from all over the the world. Visit ihaveadhd.com focused to learn more.