350 From Cemetery Shifts to a Career That Fits: Matt’s ADHD Comeback Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: "From Cemetery Shifts to a Career That Fits: Matt’s ADHD Comeback Story"

I Have ADHD Podcast, Ep. 350 – November 11, 2025
Host: Kristen Carder | Guest: Matt Cicciorelli

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Overview:

This episode provides an inspiring update on Matt Cicciorelli’s journey from unemployment and underemployment—including working shifts at a cemetery—to finally landing a job that aligns with his skills, values, and identity as an adult with ADHD. Matt shares his experience navigating job loss, low-self esteem, masking in the workplace, and ultimately finding an accepting, supportive environment. The conversation is candid, humorous, and deeply encouraging for anyone experiencing professional setbacks or wrestling with self-acceptance in their career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Matt's Unemployment & Underemployment Journey

• Job Loss & Impact
  • [04:27] Matt was let go from his director of marketing role at a small private capital firm just before Thanksgiving 2023.
  • The loss was especially hard as it was the first time in 20 years he was excited to go to work, but he struggled with rigid management ("There was no trust, not as much trust there..." – Matt, 04:27).
• Short-Term Jobs: Grocery Store & Cemetery
  • [06:32] Initially picked up part-time work at a grocery store, but this didn’t align with his professional identity.
  • Eventually, through a connection, he found full-time work with benefits at a cemetery, performing manual outdoor labor ("It was steel toed boots, jeans...we worked outside every day, rain or snow or whatever. And it was, it was real work." – Matt, 07:54).
  • Expresses gratitude for the support and camaraderie of cemetery coworkers.
  • Notably experienced a workplace injury but looks back on it with humor ("I dropped a grave. Yeah. So headstones..." – Matt, 35:45).
• Landing the "Right Fit" Job
  • [08:52] Eventually hired at a small marketing agency run by a woman familiar with ADHD, creating a supportive work atmosphere.
  • The job was discovered almost by chance after seeing a local consulting firm sign and following a referral ("If I didn't drive down that road and see that sign...I don't know what would happen." – Matt, 20:13).

Contrasting Work Environments: Old-School vs. Supportive

• Lack of Psychological Safety (Previous Jobs)
  • Previous leadership was rigid, skeptical of remote work, and unreceptive to ADHD disclosure ("It was, like, taboo for him." – Matt, 10:15).
  • Persistent paranoia about job security and feeling like he was always “in trouble” or walking on eggshells ("I had been laid off a couple times, and I had had this paranoia that everybody was out to get me." – Matt, 11:27).
• Psychological Safety and Trust (Current Role)
  • Openness and understanding of neurodiversity from the boss ("She gets it...she trusts me. And that is something I've never had before." – Matt, 10:58).
  • Matt feels able to be vulnerable and ask questions, instead of faking competence or masking ADHD symptoms, because of the supportive environment ("It was easier this time...the boss gets it. Much easier to talk to about these kind of things." – Matt, 16:59).
  • Describes his shift from masking/faking to asking clarifying questions and receiving validation ("This answer is everything in a little 100 emoji." – Matt, 29:39).

The Power of Self-Work, Coaching, and Community

• Personal Growth & Self-Compassion
  • Kristen highlights Matt’s personal journey through her FOCUSED coaching program ("Being able to watch your growth…has been really, really fun because it’s been a journey for you." – Kristen, 21:55).
  • Matt credits coaching for practical tools and support through personal and marital challenges ("You saved my marriage. You saved a lot of things…The tools that you’ve given me..." – Matt, 22:19).
  • Acceptance of imperfection, moving away from black-and-white thinking, and greater openness to others’ perspectives.
  • Improvement in emotional regulation, though still a work in progress ("My therapist told me…your GPS is headed in the right direction. You're driving 15, your wife is driving 55. But they're all going in the right direction." – Matt, 27:02).

Navigating Masking & Vulnerability at Work

• Examples of Masking and ‘Faking It’
  • [14:49] Matt humorously describes being so focused on pretending to "know it all" that he didn't know what his company actually did for months.
  • Feared asking "basic" questions and being exposed as incompetent.
• Letting Go of Masking
  • At his new workplace, he feels able to acknowledge knowledge gaps without anxiety or shame, strengthening trust and productivity ("Three years ago, Matt would never have asked this. Three years ago, Matt would have faked it." – Matt, 29:10).

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Emotional Regulation: Professional & Home Life

Regulating Emotions as an Official

• Refereeing & Emotional Contagion
  • [43:01] Matt, a high school and college basketball referee for 30 years, shares insights on emotional regulation in tense sports situations, drawn from a presentation he gave to 500 officials and an article in Referee Magazine.
  • Memorable Quote: "Emotions are contagious…Emotions are the fuel that drive your actions." – Matt quoting Kristen, 47:14
  • Illustrates with two video examples contrasting emotional escalation and calm de-escalation between umpires and coaches ("If the coach is exploding, we cannot match that." – Matt, 48:00).
• Transferring Skills Home
  • Despite exemplary composure on the court, finds it challenging to apply the same tools with family, especially with teenagers ("If I could harness that and bring it home, oh my God, it would be so much easier." – Matt, 45:54).
  • Reflects on the cyclical trigger of mutual escalation at home, especially with his kids who share his temperament.

Lessons & Ongoing Work

• Progress, Not Perfection
  • [27:01] Acknowledges incremental growth—even slow progress matters.
  • The work of accepting failure, learning to ask for help, and seeing situations from other perspectives is ongoing.

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Words of Wisdom & Encouragement

For Job Seekers and Those Struggling

• Don’t Give Up
  • Recognizes the complexity of job search journeys, the role of luck, connections, and timing ("It is possible to find an environment like that…it takes a lot of work. A lot of stars need to align. You need some luck." – Matt, 20:06).
• Seek Connection & Sounding Boards
  • Find peers or trusted people to confide in, whether at work or at home, to avoid bottling up stress and masking (e.g., coworkers, spouses, friends): "Those kind of friendships are invaluable. Talk to people at home…Just get it off your chest. Don't hold it in." – Matt, 32:34
• Agency in Career Choices
  • The experience of a truly supportive environment resets expectations for future roles ("I know what I want more. I know what I want out of the job itself. I know what I want out of the environment." – Matt, 37:52).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On self-acceptance:
  "It's getting out beyond that black and white of perfectionism." – Matt, 21:06

• On asking for help:
  "It's okay to have a dimmer switch. It's okay to say, 'Hey, let me get back to you.'" – Matt, 20:26

• On emotional regulation and impact:
  "Emotions are the fuel that drive your actions." – Kristen (quoted by Matt), 47:14

• On workplace masking:
  "Fake it till you make it…like I would go into meetings and see…I'm trying to write content and create stuff that promote what we do. And I…oh, my gosh." – Matt, 16:22

• On career luck and staying open:
  "If I didn't drive down that road and see that sign and apply for that job…I don't know what would happen." – Matt, 20:13

• On incremental growth:
  "My therapist told me…your GPS is headed in the right direction. You're driving 15. Your wife is driving 55. But they're all going in the right direction." – Matt, 27:02

• On continuing the work:
  “It is a work in progress. And there are times when I’m ashamed of it. I know I shouldn’t be, but…” – Matt, 57:24

• On self-worth:
  "You are a good dad, Matt. You're a good dad. Yes, you are. And all of the work that you have done is very evident." – Kristen, 59:20

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Matt’s job loss and underemployment: 04:27 – 08:52
• Finding a supportive workplace: 08:52 – 13:22
• Contrasting old and new work environments: 13:22 – 17:56
• Masking and vulnerability at work: 14:49 – 29:59
• Life lessons and emotional growth: 20:13 – 27:16
• Advice for those still struggling at work: 32:17 – 35:06
• Cemetery job injury story: 35:26 – 36:42
• Work environment & productivity: 37:28 – 41:43
• Referee experience & emotional regulation: 41:49 – 54:15
• Applying emotional regulation at home: 54:15 – 56:56
• Encouragement, gratitude, closing: 59:20 – end

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Final Takeaways

• Matt’s journey is proof that persistence, authenticity, supportive environments, and community can radically change one’s professional life—even after extended setbacks.
• ADHDers thrive in workplaces where psychological safety, trust, and honest communication are prioritized.
• Self-acceptance and emotional regulation are lifelong efforts but deeply impact every area of life—including career, marriage, and parenting.
• Seeking connections, coaching, and support are crucial for overcoming the isolating triggers of masking and perfectionism.

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For further resources, info on Kristen Carder’s FOCUSED program, or to connect with the community, visit ihaveadhd.com/focused.

Transcript

[Kristen Carter]

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[Matt Cicciorelli]

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[Kristen Carter]

Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast where it's all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I'm your host Kristen Carter and I have adhd. Let's chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder. I'll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B.

Hey, what's up? This is Kristen Carter and you've tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated. Although very excited and ready to roll, I am excited because one of my faves is in the house, Mr. Matt Cicciorelli. And I'm sorry. So excited for us to have this conversation. You might remember that he was on the podcast a year ago, episode 291.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

291.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes, 291, where he talked about his experience of unemployment and underemployment. And I am very happy to report that he has landed a job. And so we're gonna just do a little update podcast. This is. This is the episode for any of you who have struggled in your jobs, who have struggled with unemployment, who maybe are in between jobs right now and just feeling like, ugh, will it ever happen for me. And the answer is, yes, it will, it can, and it will happen. I'm excited for you to enjoy this episode today, Matt. Thanks for being here.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Thank you for having me back.

[Kristen Carter]

You're welcome.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I love every minute of this.

[Kristen Carter]

It is so fun to have you. And we were just chatting before we were recording about. It was almost exactly a year ago that you were here on the podcast, and at that time, you had been unemployed. What we're gonna call underemployed.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Perfect way to describe it. I like that description.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. Working at. Like, you were working, but it was not in your fields.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Nope.

[Kristen Carter]

It was not the amount of money you were used to making. Nope. And that had been going on for almost a year when you had come.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. And you did get a job.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I did, yes.

[Kristen Carter]

And we're gonna get there first. Can you. For anyone who, like, didn't hear that first podcast or maybe just doesn't remember, walk us through the unemployment journey. So what was that like for you?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Sure. So right before Thanksgiving of 2023, I was told that my position was being eliminated. I was the director of marketing at a small private capital firm right here outside of Philadelphia. And they said, as of December 1st, your job is eliminated. We'll pay you through the end of December. But after that, you know, all the stuff, and I was like, ugh, okay. And it stunk because I loved what I was doing. I. I mean, it was like the first time in 20 years where I woke up and I'm like, oh, I'm excited to go to work. The work environment itself wasn't perfect. There was, you know, the boss, my boss that I had reported to was an older guy, and he was old school, and he was wanted. People in the Office. And he was not very flexible. Like I said, well, my son is a soccer game. He's like, well, how are you going to make up? If you want to go, how are you going to make up that time? There's no trust, not as much trust there. And it's his company, he spent his money to build it from nothing all the way up to $5 billion company, whatever it was. And he had that right. I just wish he would have trusted a little more and would have learned about me a little more. So I was upset I didn't have a job, didn't upset, didn't have a job that I loved and, but I was not upset to have to deal with that kind of stuff. So we get through December, no one's hiring December. So January hits, January of 20, 24 hits. And I'm like looking for jobs. I'm networking with people, I'm talking to people and nothing's happening. And my wife is like, let's just get anything, let's just get a job, you know, anything, pay the bills, we still have three kids, we still have a mortgage, you know, we need health benefits, all that kind of stuff. So I said, yeah, okay. And it, it, I, I heard what she was saying, but wasn't to me. It was like, why am I going to do that when, oh, something's gonna pop up for me pretty soon. So I worked part time at a grocery store, still applying for jobs. And the summer of 24, it was probably in the beginning of July. I had just kind of nothing was happening. And my sister in law told me about her friend of her father's who runs a cemetery. And he said they were hiring. And I was like, all right. It was more money than the grocery store. And it was more, it was full time. And after a couple months it was health benefits. And so I started working there.

[Kristen Carter]

And I wish the listening audience could see the very preppy man sitting in front of me and just picture you digging graves in a cemetery because that I'm like, I still don't have a picture.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It was an interesting time for that.

[Kristen Carter]

Cause I'm talking like collared shirt, like little sweater with the, what is that, Izod? Like the alligator suit. Like we're talking preppy.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I, I, I went, I did go through a couple outfits last night. I was like, I went to Julie, I went to my wife's like, what about this one? She goes, okay, what about this one? Okay. She's like, whatever you want.

[Kristen Carter]

No, you look great. But I'm just saying it Doesn't.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And this is not one of the ones that I picked out before she last night.

[Kristen Carter]

And this is not something that you would wear to the cemetery.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh, goodness, no. It was steel toed boots, jeans.

[Kristen Carter]

That's what I'm saying.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And you know, you know, we worked outside every day, rain or snow or whatever. And it was, it was real work. It was a lot. And I would come home tired every day.

[Kristen Carter]

God bless the workers that are doing real work.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

The guys that work there, I get it, they, it's probably not what they wanted to do, set out to do with their lives. Right. But they, they do the work.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

They do take it seriously. Yes, they do. And they're really, really, really good people. And I am so thankful that they brought me on at a time when I really, really needed it. I needed it and my family needed it. And when I left, I wrote a little note to the boss and I was like, I can't thank you enough of, you know, for all you've done. And I wouldn't, you know, I don't know where I'd be without it at this point.

[Kristen Carter]

That's amazing.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So we went from grocery store.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Yep. To grave digging.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. And then where did we land, Matthew?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

We landed at a very small marketing agency based down the road here in Delaware County Media, Pennsylvania, run by a very talented woman who has married with two little boys, a four year old and a one year old. And she started the company about five, six years ago because she did not want to be, I don't want to say she did not want to be held back by working at a big agency. She was very successful at, you know, agencies in the city and, but she just didn't get it. She didn't get what she wanted out of it. And so she said, you know what, I'm going to, she decided I'm going to do this for myself. And she's, she's great. She, she, her dad has adhd, her brother has adhd. So all this, during all this whole process of looking for a job, I was, I would go into an interview, I'm like, do I say I have adhd? Do I do it? And I would kind of feel it out.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Sometimes I would just say no because my boss, my previous job, like I said, old school guy.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

When I first started there, he, we were just talking and everything. He was telling me about guys that have worked there and then he talking about one guy and he said, oh, I think he was weird. He was on medication, I think, and I was like, all right, so I'm not telling this guy that I'm not. There's no. And so it was, like, taboo for him.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I'm like, all right, this is.

[Kristen Carter]

You know, you're not safe to say.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Correct. Yeah. So. But other interviews I went on, and I would go in saying, all right, if I'm comfortable, if I. The conversation is going the right way.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I would tell him about it. And this woman, the first time I met her, it was, I would say within 10 minutes I mentioned that I had it, and she goes, oh, okay, cool.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, my gosh. I love.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And she's been great. There's four of us. We have a great group of clients, we have a great group of freelancers that we work with that, you know, she trusts me. And that is something I've never had before.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, let's talk about that. Because one of the things that I think is important to talk about is the stark contrast between the way you felt at your previous job and I remember you expressing. I think this was on a coaching call. I hope you don't mind if I say it. Okay. You saying, like, you felt like you were always getting in trouble at that job. Like the, like the, like the hammer was gonna come down at some point. Like there was always somebody lurking, trying to, like, figure out what you were doing.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, something like that. Yeah. So my old jobs, I had been laid off a couple times, and I had had this paranoia that everybody was out to get me. Like, if I don't do it absolutely perfectly. Yeah, that's it. Warm up the bus, get out of here. And I would go to the point where if my boss was in a closed door meeting in his or her office, I would like, oh, here we go.

[Kristen Carter]

They're talking about me.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

They're talking about me.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

You know, it's right or wrong. Oh, I guarantee you they weren't. I mean, nine times out of ten, they probably weren't, but it's just the way my brain work. And I would be walking on eggshells about everything.

[Kristen Carter]

What a great way to put it. Okay, so it sounds like there's a big difference with this new job that you have.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, very much so.

[Kristen Carter]

She's what makes the difference.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

She. It makes difference is that one. She gets it. My boss, first of all, I'm the oldest person in there by 18 years, which is.

[Kristen Carter]

That makes me laugh.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It's an interesting dynamic, that's for sure. I'm. They call me vintage. Yeah. She was born a year before I was A junior in high school. The year she was born, it was.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And she told me that I almost fell over.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

But I forgot where I was going with this. No, she gets it. Yeah. Yeah. So she gets it. And she's. It's like I told her, my son plays soccer, and he's a senior in high school. Plays soccer. I said, hey, my son has a soccer game. I said, you know, I'm going to skip out early. As I was working from home that day, I'm going to skip out early. I'll come back and I'll do this. And she goes, okay, yes, fine. I'm like. As opposed to somebody else, one of my other bosses, like, okay, so what are you going to. How are you going to make up that time? Can I get a hold of you? You're going to have your phone on you. If I send you an email, will you be able to get it? And I'm like, yeah, I guess. But this one, this Shelly is like, chill. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, that's so awesome. Did it take a while for you to drop the anxiety and the feeling like you're walking on eggshells, or was that pretty natural just because of the work environment?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, it was pretty quick there. I mean, I've only been there since four or five months now at this point, but I could tell right away that it was going to be an environment that was understanding of what. And it's also a place where I can say what, you know, what my concerns are. Oh, like, I had never worked in an agency. I've. I've been on the client side. I've never been on the agency side. So an old job. If I would, you know, before, if. If I had a boss that. If I had the same job with a different boss, sure, I would have tried to fake it and say, make decisions and do it and then ask questions later. Now I'm like, hey, Shell, I got. This is what I have in mind here. I keep telling her I've never been on the agency side. This is all new for me. This is what I'm thinking. Where do we need to tweak? And she's like, oh, this is good. This is good. Let's do this, let's not do that, or whatever.

[Kristen Carter]

Is it just her energy that allows you to be more open? What is that? Because that's a huge difference.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It is.

[Kristen Carter]

You faked it so much at a job once, you didn't even know what your company did. When you talk about faking, you're not joking.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Fake it till you make it.

[Kristen Carter]

You have faked it. Did you share that on the podcast.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Or did you tell me that you did it on one of your. You. You would ask the Focus folks to give. I'd give. You talked about masking.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And you asked for. You asked for a definition of what masking was. And I said, I. It's fake it till you make it. And I think you responded to me asking, what do you mean? And this is funny. Like, you said, this is totally adhd.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It's like, tell me you have ADHD without telling me you have adhd. I started this job, and I interviewed. I was great. I needed the job. I'm like, oh, whatever they asked me, I was like, yeah, I could do that, of course. And I understood what they did for, to an extent, like, a week or two into the job, I asked somebody, and they told me something like, okay, I got it. A week later, somebody else mentioned it. And it was. It was like, in my. They may have said the same thing, but in my brain was like, wait a minute. That doesn't jive with anything that I. That I heard before.

[Kristen Carter]

We do what?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, and then it was always like that all the time. And, like, months go by, and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't ask these people now. What do we do? I've been here four months. What are they gonna think?

[Kristen Carter]

Incredible. I mean, I just. I crack up every time that I hear that. Because, like, when you say that you faked it before, you mean it.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Like, we're not just talking about a little, like, smile and nod.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Like. Like, I would go into meetings and see.

[Kristen Carter]

And you were marketing for that?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. I'm trying to write content and create stuff that promote what we do. And I. Oh, my gosh.

[Kristen Carter]

Like, wait, what did we do?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And it was a. I don't want to say it was a struggle, but it was. It was stressful because I'm like, are they gonna find out today? Is this the day they're gonna find out?

[Kristen Carter]

They're like, matthew, what?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

What's your definition of our mission and vision? Okay, so you faked it like crazy.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Did it take you a while to, like, not walk on eggshells in this environment, or was it pretty much immediate?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It was easier this time in this, my current job, because, one, the boss gets it. Two, she was much easier to talk to about these kind of things. Like, if I had a question, I felt much, much more comfortable about asking it and not being judged or not.

[Kristen Carter]

It's that piece, isn't it?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And it's not like I didn't like other places. If I asked that question, even if it was a legitimate question, it was like, why are you asking me this question? You're the director of marketing. You should know this stuff.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. Oh, I hate that.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And then. And. But then in my mind, every other job I had is like, all right, the CFO knows everything about the finances. You ask him a question, boom, he has that answer at the tip of his tongue. You ask the chief investment officer anything, he knows it.

[Kristen Carter]

So I should be the same.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I should be the same. And if I say, oh, let me get back to you, that's a sign of weakness. And, like, what am I paying you for? Why are you here? I mean, do you. Yeah, that was very stress. And I don't need.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm getting a cortisol like Spike just talking about this.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I don't need to do that now, because, one, I'm comfortable. Two, she gets it. And three, it's just a much more relaxed. Like her dog, who's. Irving, is a great. Is a. Is a yellow lab. It was a seeing eye, Seeing, as she says, a seeing eye dog. School dropout. And he's the sweetest dog. I give him a treat every time he walks in, and it's like he's just right there.

[Kristen Carter]

And, oh, my gosh, it sounds like the perfect environment.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It is. I. It has exceeded every expectation I've had.

[Kristen Carter]

So happy for you. I'm so happy.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

So thank you.

[Kristen Carter]

So happy for you.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Do you have any words of wisdom for someone who's like, I want what he has?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I honestly, no, I don't. But I would say, just keep. I don't want to say, yeah, it's out. I don't want to say, keep trying. Keep trying. That's a little cliche, but it's. I. I don't want to. And I also don't want to say everything happens for a reason, but it's. I was lucky that. See, the way I found this job. It's kind of a funny story is that I was driving to a basketball game to watch a buddy of mine, and I was going down the main road of the town where I used to work, and I saw. And I've gone down that road a thousand times, and I saw this sign for this consulting firm. I'm like, oh, I've never seen that before. So I went home, I Googled it, and I saw they had a job opening. So I applied, and the woman who runs that Place said she got back to me like the next day. Which, when you're applying for jobs is like, oh, my God, this is awesome. Yeah, that was a dope meat hit right there. She says, hey, I love your background. We don't need something, but I know somebody who does. Here she is. I've copied her on this email I think you two should connect to.

[Kristen Carter]

And that was Shelly.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That was Shelly. And that was two days later. I'm sitting in her barn, which is in her backyard where her. Our office is. And it was just like that. It was. It was great.

[Kristen Carter]

So cool. So I think maybe the words of wisdom are just. It is possible. It is. It is possible to find an environment like that.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right.

[Kristen Carter]

It does take.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It does a lot of work. A lot of stars need to align. You need some luck. Like if I didn't drive down that road and see that sign and apply for that job.

[Kristen Carter]

So true.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And Google them and apply for that job, I don't know what would happen.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Ooh. What did you learn about yourself during this, like, year and a half, two year process?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Professionally? I learned that it's. I learned that you need to be able to ask questions and admit that you don't know something. It doesn't have to be perfect. You know us, black and white. There's no dimmer switch, but it's okay to have a dimmer switch. It's okay to say, hey, let me get back to you. Or it's okay to say, hey, I don't know what I'm doing here. Can you help me out? Can you guide me through this? I want to learn how to do this. So, you know, can I watch you this time? I learned it's easier now for me to do that kind of stuff. So.

[Kristen Carter]

Why. Why is it easier? Is it. Is it. You've done a lot of work on yourself, like self development. So does that have to.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That does. It does. And it's. I think the work that we've done as far as it's self trust, self confidence and everything, but it's admitting that you're not perfect. It's the. It's getting out beyond that black and white of perfectionism.

[Kristen Carter]

Accepting your humanity.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. And knowing that who you're talking to is going to accept that too. Because old bosses would not have accepted that. They would have come back with her with claws, claws out. And looking to send me out the.

[Kristen Carter]

Door, at least my head for. I forgot to mention in the intro that you're a focus member.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

You've been in focus for two years.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Little over two years. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Two years.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Ish. That's a good way to put it.

[Kristen Carter]

Two years.

Ish.

Right. So you're an A lister. Yeah. That's amazing.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That's like the velvet rope of focused.

[Kristen Carter]

It is not just a vip. You're an A lister. And just being able to watch your growth through this whole process has been really, really fun because it's been a journey for you.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It's fun, not fun, but it's interesting to see other people's journeys too.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. You've been in long enough to be.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Able to do that, and it's. And I've told you this before, is that I would not be where I am today. I wouldn't. You saved my marriage. You saved a lot of things. You be the tools that you've given me. I mean, believe me, my marriage is not perfect. There are lots of amends to be made because of the last year and a half, two years, and the math. Not mathing, as we've talked about before. Um, but I think knowing that those tools are there, or my wife knowing that those tools are there and just me using them.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Or getting. Knowing that I can use them has. I don't want to say kept her around because. But it's.

[Kristen Carter]

It's. It's.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

She.

[Kristen Carter]

She feels hopeful because of that. Because she knows what is at your desire.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I think there are times when she doesn't feel hopeful. Believe me, there are times. But, you know, I love her to death. We love each other very, very much. We have three kids, three beautiful kids. And it's just. Is to what? To me, there's no other option.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. I love that. I love that.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I remember our first coaching call and just how stuck you felt at the time. I can actually, like. I can see. I know. I'm getting a little, like, choked up, too. I can see you in my. In my mind's eye, just feeling so defeated.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. Because at the time. And I still had a job at that time. I was still working at that time. It was. I was. I didn't. I. I felt that I couldn't do anything right.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Everything was wrong. It's like if I loaded the dishwasher. Why are you doing it that way? Which. The. The bowls go on the bottom, not on the top. And I'm like, okay. Before, I would be like, well, what are you getting mad at me for? Do you want to do it? Then, fine, you do it now. It's just like, oh, okay. That's a Good idea. I've learned to see. And I'm still a lot of work to do in this, but the work that I have done has made a difference. Is that seeing other perspectives, it doesn't.

[Kristen Carter]

Mean that you're bad. There's something wrong with you. If someone says, like, no, do it this way.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right. And I need to get better at not being defensive, because that's. And that's the biggest wedge between my wife and me. Whenever things aren't great, it's because she says something and I'm like, okay, fine, I'm wrong. I'm wrong again. Here we go. But the other perspectives, like my son, last week, they lost their soccer game. Then he had two shots that would have been goals. And he comes home and he's all bummed out. I was like, all right, I'm sorry, bud. Good effort, you know? Yeah. Still fun watching you play. I love going to watch you play and all that kind of stuff. He goes. He's dropping F bombs left and right. And I'm like, oh, come on, kid. And he's like. He's like, philly.

[Kristen Carter]

Philly teenager.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And he's like, oh, it would have been different if I would have made those two shots. You know, I'm like, yeah. Or you could just say, hey, man, the goalie really got. Really. The goalie got me on those ones.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. It's so good.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

So that's the. I can see that when I'm talking to him. I have trouble. I have trouble seeing it when it's myself.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And sometimes when I realize it, I do see it. It's after the fact. And I'm like, oh, crap, we've already yelled at each other. We've already done this, we've already done that. And now I gotta go tail between my legs and say, I'm sorry. Yeah. And I don't know, it's.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, yeah. It's so, so, so hard.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

It's so hard when that emotional regulation is crazy, which I can't wait to talk about, because I know we're gonna go there. And feeling like you can't do anything right, that's a tough combo.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And it's. And it's the. Like I've said before, the black and the white, the yes or the no. There's no.

[Kristen Carter]

I think you're either right or you're wrong.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right or you're wrong. But it's like. And. And doing things. It's. And I think I forget who was on your podcast that said this, but it's like a soundboard where there's dimmer switches.

[Kristen Carter]

That was Marcy Caldwell.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Okay. So, yeah, she was like, ADHD or all the way up or all the way down. And I. This. It can't. To me sometimes, it can't be in the middle.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And that's where she's like, well, if you load the dishwasher this way, you know, it gets this. And I'm like, all right, fine.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I've never loaded a dishwasher right in my life, so. And so it's. It's perspectives, and I've gotten. I have so much. So much. So much more to do.

[Kristen Carter]

But you've gotten a lot better.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I know.

[Kristen Carter]

Let's give you credit.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I know. I tell. My. My therapist told me this. He goes, your GPS is headed in the right direction. You're driving 15. Your wife is driving 55. But they're all going in the right direction.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, I love that. And that was that encouraging.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It was. It was. I'm like, can I just. Just push the gas pedal a little more? I mean, I get it that I'm making progress. I want to make the faster progress, and I think she wants that too. And I. But she does understand that, you know, two years ago, Matt would not have.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Would not have. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, it's so good. Just getting back to the work environment you taught. You mentioned masking. Do you notice yourself masking in this new work environment?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I notice it, and then I stop it.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, so what? Can you give us some examples?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah. So this is. This is. We were doing. I forget. We were talking to a client, and we had this. We were on a call, and we were on a zoom call and asking questions and. And this. And I. I was thinking to myself, I'm gonna ask. I need to find this answer. But I don't wanna. I don't want to ask it. I don't wanna ask it, and I don't wanna blurt it out, because if it. If I ask this and I'm wrong, and it's something that's very, very, very basic that I should already know.

[Kristen Carter]

That's the thing with you, right? Is like, if I should already know it, I shouldn't ask it.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. So we got through the call and I slacked. My. My boss, because we were both working at home, and I said, educate me here. What is this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she goes. She comes back to me and says, let me know how I can support you. Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, stop right there. I was like, I'm not. I said, I said, I'm not trying to get out of doing whatever you're asking me to do. I want to be educated so I know to do it next time. And she said, oh, okay, that's great. And I even told her, I was like, three years ago, Matt would never have asked this. Matt. Three years ago, Matt would have faked it, asked the question. And if you got upset at me, Two years ago, Matt, Three years ago, Matt would have been like, oh, God, that's it. I'm, you know, backtracking on X. Pack up my stuff now.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Or would have just, you know, not asked the question, given, you know, turned in work for the project that.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. Didn't make sense.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Didn't make sense. Or would have been completely wrong. And you would have come back to me and say, you're like, yo, what the hell is this all about? And so I said, I need to know. I want you to educate me here. And. And she wrote back, she goes, this answer is everything in a little 100 emoji. And that was right there. I was like, oh, my God, this is, this is, this is awesome.

[Kristen Carter]

Huge trust building exercise.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Huge.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

But it took you being vulnerable first.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, yes. And taking a risk. Taking a risk. Being vulnerable. And I think the, the fact that she's so. I'm chill.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Make allows me to be vulnerable. Old bosses where it's, you know, if you're going to be gone for your son's soccer game, why are you going to have your phone? You're going to check your email, how are you going to make up those times? That's not, that's not an environment to be. To let yourself be vulnerable.

[Kristen Carter]

So weird.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

That's so old school. I hate it. I hate it.

Everyone with ADHD knows what to do.

To improve their lives.

You go to bed at a reasonable.

Time, you wake up early, you make a list, you cross things off the list in order, blah, blah, blah.

Like, yeah, we know what to do. But ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do do.

It's a disorder of knowing exactly what.

To do but not being able to get yourself to do it. That's why I created focused. It's an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I'm a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019, I've coached over 4,000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from hot mess express to grounded and thriving. I'LL teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior, and accept yourself, flaws and all. And with this foundation, we'll build the skills to improve your life with adhd. And not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you're surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of. Of self development right alongside of you. Dr. Ned Hallowell says, healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you're an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused to learn more. That's ihaveadhd.com focused to check it out.

For someone who is still in a job where maybe they're feeling like they have to hide parts of themselves, what would you say to them? How would you, like, offer some encouragement?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I would say, oh, man, this is a tough one.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I would say, find a sounding board. Because, honest to God, I. In my job where I was masking for like 10 years, I had one or two people that I could talk to and we could say, hey, let's go to lunch. And. And, yeah, they would either kind of give it. Give it to me straight and like, here, this is what you need to know, or I would just get things off my chest and they would be. And huge. Yeah, I mean, those. Those kind of friendships are invaluable. Talk to people at home. Your wife, your husband, your partner, whatever. Just get it off. Don't hold it in. Because that's what I was doing. I would. I would drive home and I'd sit and I'd pull in my driveway. I'd sit in the car and I'd be like, yeah, all right, fooled them again. And I'd be sitting in there and I go into the house and I'd be all. I'd be drained, I'd be tired, and I'd be snapping at kids and all that kind of stuff. So don't let that kind of stuff happen.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. Because then you're starting second shift.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

As a dad.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

It's like, first shift's done. Time for second shift.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And back at that time, you know, this is eight years ago at this point. The kids were 11.

[Kristen Carter]

So little.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

11 and what? 11, nine and three and it. Or four or whatever. And it was just, we're running them to baseball. We're running Them to dance. We're running them to the theater or whatever the case may be. And it's just. There's no time to sit.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, yeah. And feel your feelings.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh. And there's no time to stand by the time you sit down with. I have to sit down with my wife, and I'm really like, hey, how's your day? You know, she tell me about her day, and it's like, I'm falling asleep. We're both falling asleep after that. And it's like, all right, I don't have time to talk about my day, so I'm just gonna go to bed because I got to start it all again in the morning. So it's. You know, it wasn't the healthiest thing, but we did what we had to do. And I know there are thousands and thousands of other people out there that are doing the same thing.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. Just trying, like, the grind of it all.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I love what you said. Like, you're basically saying, find connection points to, like, relieve that pressure valve.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. Yeah. And that's just. You just to get it off your chest. I mean, it was like, am I really crazy here? Does this. You know, is this nuts? Or do. Am I. You know, what's going on here? What am I missing?

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And. And it's just another. It's like an independent third party coming in and say, hey, this is. Look at it from this direction. Or this is what you need to do. These are some good questions to ask.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm just so happy for you that you. I think in the last podcast we did episode 291 for anyone who wants to go back, you just kept saying, I'm looking for a job in the field. What did you say? Like, a job? I went to school for a job.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I went to college for. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I didn't want to say a real job, because I was doing a real job. I was. You know, the cemetery job.

[Kristen Carter]

You were doing a real job.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I mean, the realist. Fallen in graves. I cut my finger off and they sewed it back on. I could still.

[Kristen Carter]

That's not funny. I'm sorry for laughing.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That's all right. I laugh at it now. It wasn't funny.

[Kristen Carter]

Tell us how you did it. Did you drop a gravestone on it?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I dropped a grave. Yeah. So headstones are. They are, you know, two pieces. You got the base, and then you got the upright part. And to put the upright part on, you have to put this stuff in there. And I was using. And someone was holding it up with a crowbar, pry bar. And I was poking my finger in there to get the stuff in, and someone thought that. I said, good. And he took it out, and it was so. My dad's a geologist. My dad was a geology professor at Penn State for years. And so I told him about it. He goes, how big was it? I said, dad, I don't know.

[Kristen Carter]

So I went, that's not the point.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I went back and I measured. It was 6 inches thick, like 22 inches wide, and, like 30 inches tal. He's like, what was it from? Where was the granite from? Was it from China? Was it from Italy? I'm like, dad, I don't know, but.

[Kristen Carter]

My finger is not okay. Thanks for asking.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

He estimated it was like 7, 800 pounds, something like that.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I. I am, too. But it, you know, it looks back.

[Kristen Carter]

It looks normal.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It looks a little gnarly. My hand modeling days are over.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, man, that's such a shame. Oh, yeah, Well, I was going to make a comment about your Philly fanatic socks. I was going to say something like, you could model.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I could, but no Philly fanatic socks.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay. Anyway. Anyway.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Anyway, we'll breeze right past that.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. I just. I'm really happy for you. I'm glad that you found a place where you feel like you fit. And I'm curious. We love this job. We don't want to go anywhere. We're grateful. We're thankful. But, like, does it give you hope for the future of working? Like, if you don't stay here forever, that you have a. A baseline of, like, what it could be?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. No, that's a good point. And I hadn't thought of that until you just mentioned it, but, yes, if something would happen and.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. God forbid.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And, you know, I. I would feel better about going. I know what I want more. I know what I want out of the job itself. I know what I want out of the environment. I know what I want out of the people I work with.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I also know from this whole process that it's going to take time. It would take time to find that. And I might have to take a step backwards to help the math. Math correctly.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes, we've learned so much.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, we've learned so much. I. If I could use a share thing, if I could turn back time, I would change so many things.

[Kristen Carter]

Why do we have to learn everything the hard way?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

You know, I don't know.

[Kristen Carter]

I know such a big Fat bummer. It really is. How much do you think that the work environment impacts productivity?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh, absolutely. Because it's the vibes. The, the vibe in the office is that sets the tone.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Like having Irving the dog next to me is like, just like, hey, Irv, how you doing, bud? And like if I'm on a call and I was like, you know, I hang up. Like, irv, that guy was an idiot. You know, whatever. Even working at home now, I am so much better at it because when I was first time I ever really worked at home was during COVID Sure. And distractions everywhere. Three kids at home trying to be homeschooled. My wife and I both trying to hold down 40 hour a week jobs and all that kind of stuff. And it was just like, you know, it was too much.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

So I would be working and I'd see my phone and I'm like, oh, okay. And then look at that.

[Kristen Carter]

And yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Here I am 25 minutes later.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I'm late for a meeting because I've been scrolling on Instagram and I put my phone, I put my phone in the other side of the room now.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh my gosh.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I put it face down. I turn the ringer off. I don't do that all the time, but I need to do it more. I do it sometimes. I know when I really have to hunker down and get some stuff done, I will do that.

[Kristen Carter]

So even working from home, your productivity is higher just because the vibe of the work environment.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right.

[Kristen Carter]

And the, and the people.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I don't feel as. It's not as, it's not as stressful, it's not as urgent.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. What we're doing, there are deadlines and everything. But it's not like the vibe is something. The vibe has brought the urgency down.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

If that makes sense.

[Kristen Carter]

The work is still just as important.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, absolutely. And we. And this is another good thing about this, this environment. We know we're not saving lives. We're not performing heart surgery, brain surgery, whatever.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

We're marketing people. We're. At the end of the day, whatever, our clients are still going to have their business. We're just a piece of that business. But we're. We. But we're going to do it the best we can. But we know that. We also know that we're. There are far more important things in the world.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Than what we're doing.

[Kristen Carter]

That's so good. I love it.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It's that perspective that, you know, other things. Other places. Yeah. In other places. Didn't that I've been, Have not had.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. It was still just, excuse me for saying this, just marketing, but it was like, if you don't do it, you're gonna die, they're gonna die, everybody's gonna die.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And you know the one of the. Although I've worked in financial services before this job for a long time and it was, let's do these jobs so rich people can get richer.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I get it. Everybody wants to make the most they can. But I'm like, it's like, it's not. I mean, we're, it's hard to explain.

[Kristen Carter]

But it's like more meaningful with smaller companies.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Smaller companies where it's. There's more. Yes, exactly.

[Kristen Carter]

More skin in the game maybe.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. That's a great way to put it. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, that's great. I wanted to transition here because you recently gave a presentation for referees.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

First of all, you're a referee. You've been one for 30 years. You must be pretty old.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Thank you. Thanks for bringing it up. Yes. I'll be 50 in March. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Kristen Carter]

Next 30 years as a referee. It's amazing.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, I love it. It's. I started because I needed money.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I stayed in it because I loved it.

[Kristen Carter]

It's cool.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I've made so, so, so, so many very, very good friends. Oh, I love, I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know where I'd be without being an official.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Basketball referee, high school and college and it's just I've. It's like my niche in life, I guess. And if I could have done it, you know, as a full time gig for, I would have, you know, I had some opportunities and, you know, just, you know, life got in the way and I decided to have a career and move away and everything and that. So I kind of fell off the radar. But it was, I, I love, love, love, love doing it. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

That's cool. So recently you gave a presentation and of all of the things that you talked about, tell us what your topic was.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It was on emotional regulation. When games, when games go sideways and go haywire, how do you bring yourself back? First of all, how do you keep games from getting to that point?

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And how, and if they do get to that point, because there are times when it, no matter what you do. Yeah. It's going to. Games are going to go off the rails and when they do go off the rails, what do you do to kind of rein it back in?

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And, um, I, I wrote an article for Referee magazine about this.

[Kristen Carter]

Pause. There's a referee magazine?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes, it's been, it's the, it's the foremost.

[Kristen Carter]

Is every cover, though, someone in like a striped white and black shirt? Every.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Or an umpire? Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So great.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, it's. It's been around since 1976.

[Kristen Carter]

That's great. Okay. So you wrote an article.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, I'm a freelance writer for them. I've been doing that for three or four years. And so I wrote an article about, you know, how to reign games back in.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

When they go sideways. And Pennsylvania officials, piaa, the high school sports association in Pennsylvania, has a convention every year for all sports officials. And I had. Was talking to the guy at the office who. Right. Who runs the convention, and I said, hey, you know, wrote this article and I've talked about it at a couple smaller meetings. I say, would you be interested? You know, we can do it. He's like, oh, it'd be great. I thought he was going to say just on basketball, because that's what the article was, was just about basketball. He says, let's put it on a general session. Can you put it on all sports? And I walk in there, there's like 500 people here. I'm like, oh, my God.

[Kristen Carter]

So did you struggle with that?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

No, I didn't. I knew.

[Kristen Carter]

Come alive.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

No, no, I, I didn't. It was fine. I didn't.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It wasn't like, oh, yeah, it wasn't anything like that Impressive. Yeah, but it was.

[Kristen Carter]

500 is a lot.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, it was, it was a pretty big room. And I don't know, I mean, I'm sure there were some people that were scrolling on their phones during it. But, you know, I saw people taking notes. I saw people taking pictures of the slides that I had up and everything. And it was, and it was, it's. And it's funny, and I've told you this before, is that I've been doing that for 30 years. I can be in a gym with 2, 3000 people in there and it's a high pressure game and coaches and players are screaming and I'm like, oh, relax.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Hey, we got it. You know, you ask a question, I'll answer it. If you want to yell at me, then I'm going to walk away.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And you know, we're going to have a conversation. You're a grown adult. I'm a grown adult. Yet when I go home, you have said this before. My son doesn't hang up his towel after he takes a shower or, you know, someone you Know, leaves their dishes in the sink instead of putting a dishwasher, and I lose my. Oh, what do I have to do to get you guys to understand this? And it's like, it's like I can turn it on.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And if I could harness that and bring it home, oh, my God. I think it would be so much easier.

[Kristen Carter]

The thing is, though, like, I totally get what you're saying, but I want to relieve you of a little bit of, like, whatever self judgment there may be, because nobody triggers you like your kids.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

No. And I know I'm judging myself. I'm just wishing that that would be awesome if I could do it, if I could make it as easy.

[Kristen Carter]

It's so true. But kids are so triggering, especially when they're teenagers. We both are parenting a graduating senior.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Our kids are exactly the same.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. Aaron will be 18 in three weeks. Faith will be 16 in the end of December, New Year's Eve. She's a New Year's Eve baby. And then Claire just turned 12.

[Kristen Carter]

I love your kids names. Those are good names. Yeah. Okay, so back to emotional regulation.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

What are the biggest things that you've learned about emotional regulation?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I've learned that. And this is coming. Listening to you, coach, listening to you on this podcast, is that emotions are contagious. And I've also learned that, and this is your line, and I even used it in the presentation, is that emotions are the fuel that drive your actions.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

If you're gonna. If your head is ready to explode, the rest of your body is going to explode. And everything you do when your head is in that state is gonna reflect that. And what I told this group of officials is that you can't let yourself get to that because. And when that dovetailed into the emotions being contagious part was that you see coaches lose their minds on the, on the, on the, on the bench or on the sidelines or whatever. What? 9 times out of 10, what happens? Their players lose their minds, too. If we lose our minds and we're the ones that are in control of that game.

[Kristen Carter]

As referees.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

As referees, there's no hope. We are. We're doing ourselves.

[Kristen Carter]

Everyone's exploding.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right. If the coach is exploding, we cannot match that. It's like, what are your chemistry? Two negatives don't make a positive. Or physics. Chemistry, whatever it is.

[Kristen Carter]

Science Guy, I actually don't really.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

My dad's a scientist, but I don't know.

[Kristen Carter]

Science.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

But two negatives. It's chemistry. I think two negatives don't make a Positive. He's blowing his mind. You have to be the picture of calm. You have to be, hey, relax. I got it. You want to talk? Let's talk. If you're going to yell, I'm going to walk away.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. He brought an example of us.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I did. I did. So this is a friend of mine who is a Major League baseball umpire.

[Kristen Carter]

Which is so cool.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, He's a great guy, and he's very down to earth. And he told me he's come to my games because I referee basketball in the winter, and he's home in the winter. He's his off season. He comes to a lot of my games. And there was one game where I gave somebody a technical and I just. My face got red, my veins were popping in my neck. Afterwards, he said, dude, it's just gotta be another call. You can't let it go. I said, I know. And he was telling me about an example of that really helped his career. And so this video that I'm gonna show you here is. This is from, like 2016, 2017. He had been in the league for a couple years, and the play had happened, and it's the Pirates and the Phillies, actually. And that's so fun. Yeah. And the Pirates manager did not like the answer, did not like the outcome of the discussion that the umpires had. And this is how it happened.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, we're going to show this, and Matt's going to walk us through it.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

So that's my friend on the left and the Pirates manager. And you see, this is what I'm talking about, how emotions are contagious.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

He's blown his mind.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And Alan tries to match it.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. The coach is really. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Don't read lips, by the way.

[Kristen Carter]

Don't read lips.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

But you can see how what happens after he matches by trying to match his. His anger. Nothing's good's gonna happen here.

[Kristen Carter]

No. And what's interesting is that the umpire was not even upset until the coach got upset.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Until.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Until the manager got upset.

[Kristen Carter]

And now they're just going back.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And now somebody has to come in and step in and separate them.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. And that's not productive.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

No. And then so he told me about that, and I said. And he actually told me about this specific one. So I went and found it after he. After he. After he told me. And I'm like. Like, al, you're right, man. This is. This is good. And he said. Then he told me about, like, the next year. We were talking about it again. He goes. And he had ejected the guy from the Houston Astros, a guy named Jose Altuve, who's a second baseman. He's a real short little dude, but he's. I don't like the guy, but he's a. He's a good player. What's a good player? He's on his downside of his career. But. And he showed me this example. So this is the opposite. This is what.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

This is what. It's, you know, when you don't match the emotion.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, so strike three.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Upset. Getting upset.

[Kristen Carter]

Jose.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Jose is unhappy.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Jose is not happy.

[Kristen Carter]

The ump is.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

He's just talking to him.

[Kristen Carter]

The picture of calm.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes. And instead of, whoop, see ya. It's just a little simple. Little simple. Get out of here. As opposed to.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Throwing his arm out of the socket like he did in the other one.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's interesting there is that it's almost like his calm was contagious.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

So now, because Jose is just walking away.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It was just because. Yeah. Jose was trying to get upset. Was trying to bait him to get upset. And when Al was like, nope, gone, Jose realized, all right, I'm out of here. What I'm trying to do is not going to work. I'm out.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. That's so interesting. Oh, that's fascinating.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah. So I've learned so much just by being. I mean, I've been his friend for years. He and my wife actually graduated high school together.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, that's cool.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

But I've. I have. Just by being his friend and picking his brain at the level at which he is an umpire.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I've. It's made me such an absolute better official.

[Kristen Carter]

So what does it take to transition from the first version that was like, catching the emotion of. In that case, it was the coach. And then the second version where he just was able to hold the calm for you, like, what do you think.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That awareness of what. What could happen, like, right there in that first one, I guarantee you he was just like, you're coming at me for this. Get out of here. You know, what do you. You know, kind of. I'm like. And I. There are times when I've done that, but now I'm like, okay, everybody. Especially now when there's a camera in every gym and everything is live streamed.

[Kristen Carter]

Everyone's got their phones out.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Everyone's got their phones out. If. If I'm. If this guy's gonna. If I'm gonna have to throw this coach out, he's gonna throw himself out.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

So what I would do it's like if in that situation, if he's yelling at me, I would say, enough, I'll stop. You know, I'll say, you can talk to me, you don't yell at me. We're both adults kind of thing. And I'll give him the stop sign. So everybody in the gym sees you do that. And then I would walk away. And then I create what I. You create that distance. And then if he comes at me again, everybody in the gym knows that.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I try to diffuse and walk away and he, he kept going. And if I have to throw him, that's why that, everybody will know.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That, hey, I did my job. He's. He's the one that acting like a fool.

[Kristen Carter]

So how does this translate to home? The. This, the stop sign.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That's a big sigh. I know. Oh, God.

[Kristen Carter]

Body language changed immediately. But like, how can we at least talk about it? Theoretically.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Theoretically. How can this skill set translate to home where we're like, oh yeah, going to create some distance. We're going to show a little boundary here with the stop sign.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah. So using the example of Aaron, not if his towels on the floor.

[Kristen Carter]

I mean, we love him, but. Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh yeah, his towel's going to be on the floor.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

He's a 18 year old kid.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

He's, you know, I say, hey bud, put your towel up. He gets mad at himself or whatever. And I'm like. And I would be like, yo, dude, don't yell at me.

[Kristen Carter]

Right?

[Matt Cicciorelli]

But I do my kids all the time.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

You know, then it escalates and we.

[Kristen Carter]

Go, sure, now you're going back and forth.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Right? And now it's just like. And we do this a lot. I do this a lot with my daughter who's, who's, you know, she and I are so much alike that it's like all the time. And I'm like, and I need to get better at. My wife is very, very good at it. And she goes, she. If Faith is going crazy, you know, getting upset, Julie would say, faith, go take 10 minutes. You know, we would calm it down. Create that distance.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And I need to get better at me. I'm like, it's. You're going to talk. I'm going to talk louder. You're going to talk even louder. I'm going to talk even louder. And because there's so much alike. And, and that's why I love her so much, is that we're. That she's your mini me. Exactly. In many, many ways, yes. So I need to be conscious of those tools, those tactics at home. Because I wouldn't give a second thought about saying, hey, you're gonna talk to me? You're not gonna yell at me.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, I love that. I love that. To a child.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah. But I, I.

[Kristen Carter]

You're like, you take the bait.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I take the bait. And I. It's like, yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, so next year, when you come back on the podcast, your work between now and then is. How do I not take that bait? Yep. And you can come back and tell us about all that.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Oh, the Xanadu at our house.

[Kristen Carter]

Now it is just a Zen garden in our home. And my child yells at me, and I say, excuse me, you're gonna talk to me. You're not gonna yell at me? And I don't get upset.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, yeah. Like, coaches go crazy. And there's one guy I remember, a short little Italian guy. He's a good coach. Good guy. He's yelling at me. I was like. I was like, lou, I was like, I am more than happy. I'm more than happy to talk to you. It's like, let's. We can go out and have a bottle of wine or something like that, but you're not going to yell at me right now.

[Kristen Carter]

I love this.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

You took the time. I'll go talk to your team.

[Kristen Carter]

I love this.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And it's just. I can. It's like second nature. It's not even second nature. It's like the first nature. When I'm doing that on a basketball floor and it's. It's. It's like not even entering my brain.

[Kristen Carter]

When it's at home, I just feel like that's so relatable, because I know that as ADHDers, we can be hotheads and we have such good intentions, but in the moment of that argument or whatever the case may be, it's like we don't even have access to those tools. Like, I know how to do it in this setting. In this setting. In this setting.

But.

But in this setting right here, for some reason, I lose my shit every single time.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. And work in progress.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It is a work in progress. And there are times when I'm ashamed of it. I know I shouldn't be, but.

[Kristen Carter]

No, I mean, I understand.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah. But I. And it's. And I've done it so many times and for so long that I'm like, what damage am I doing to my kids and to our relationship? And I. I don't want them to leave and go to college and not come back.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

My Wife and her two brothers are the three closest people I have ever, ever seen. They are. I mean, I love them. They're like, I mean, I've known them longer, known them longer than, you know, that I lived at home with my brother and my sister. And the three of them, they can, they can joke with each other, they can make fun of each other, and everyone understands that it's a joke.

[Kristen Carter]

That's cool.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Whereas if they would, if my brother, my sister would joke with me and I would just like, you know, claws were out and it's just like we'd start hitting each other and yelling at each other. And I want my kids to be like my wife and her and my brothers in law.

[Kristen Carter]

That's awesome.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

And kudos to her parents, her mom, especially for nurturing that in them.

[Kristen Carter]

That's awesome.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

You know, from when they were young and my wife is. My wife is. Her mission in life is to make sure that, you know, kids want. Our kids want to come back home.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

They don't feel bad. They don't feel hesitant to come home and visit if they live far away or whatever.

[Kristen Carter]

I am positive that your kids are going to want to come back. I am positive.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

I hope so. And if they do, and we will.

[Kristen Carter]

Such a gift.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

It will be a gift. And it will be a gift that my wife has worked so hard for because that's awesome. I'm trying my best not to derail anything that she's done.

[Kristen Carter]

You are a good dad, Matt. You're a good dad. Yes, you are. And all of the work that you have done is very evident. And I know you're not perfect.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And you know you're not perfect and your wife knows you're not perfect, but you're still a good dude. Thanks. You're making a lot of progress.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah, I like that.

[Kristen Carter]

Super fun.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Can I get that on a postcard?

[Kristen Carter]

Still a good dude.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Stitch.

[Kristen Carter]

Just a tattoo, maybe.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

What about a bumper sticker neck tattoo? Yes. There you go.

[Kristen Carter]

That would be fire, as my kids would say. That would be fire neck tattoo. Still a good dude. Yeah. I love that. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate you. I adore you. I'm so glad that you were able to come in today. Thank you. Just you never hesitate to share yourself with other people with the podcast and.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

That'S something that focused has done for me. I would never have done that without really. I would never be comfortable doing that with anybody, any other group.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

That's really cool.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Thank you for creating that environment because it is so. It's nurturing. It's very good.

[Kristen Carter]

What a great word. I appreciate that. Well, listener, if you need a nurturing environment, if you need somewhere to connect with other ADHDers and with Matt himself in the flesh, come join us in Focused. Go to. I have ADHD.com to learn more. And thank you for being here.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

My pleasure. You know I'll be here anytime.

[Kristen Carter]

Quit your job, be my co host. That would be so fun.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

What's that?

[Kristen Carter]

I said quit your job, be my co host. We'll just do this every day.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Okay?

[Kristen Carter]

All right, guys, we're going to talk to you next week.

[Matt Cicciorelli]

Bye. Bye.

[Kristen Carter]

If you're being treated for your adhd, but you still don't feel like you're reaching your potential, you've got to join Focused. It's my monthly coaching membership where I teach you how to tame your wild thoughts and create the life that you've always wanted. No matter what season of life you're in or where you are in the world, focused is for you. All materials and call recordings are stored in the site for you to access at your convenience. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused for all the info.