402 When Traditional Parenting Fails: Raising Strong-Willed Kids

Summary

Podcast Summary: I Have ADHD Podcast

Host: Kristin Carder
Episode: 402 – When Traditional Parenting Fails: Raising Strong-Willed Kids
Guest: Kirk Martin (Founder of Celebrate Calm and host of the Calm Parenting Podcast)
Date: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the challenges and transformative insights of parenting strong-willed, neurodivergent, or PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) children—especially when traditional, authoritarian approaches fall flat. Host Kristin Carder welcomes Kirk Martin, parent coach and founder of Celebrate Calm, to discuss his personal journey with his strong-willed son, how parent self-regulation is critical, reframing consequences and boundaries, and actionable steps for fostering resilience and connection with kids who “won’t just do what they’re told.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Kirk’s Journey to Calm Parenting

• Background:

  • Raised by a career military father, Kirk initially adopted a controlling approach with his son, Casey, who “came out of the womb with boxing gloves on” ([05:02]).
  • Early parenting struggles stemmed from trying to change Casey’s behavior through consequences and authority, only to realize that these kids care far more about autonomy than about losing privileges ([05:48]).

• Critical Realization:

  • “The only person in life that I can control is myself. And when you try to control other people, it frustrates everybody.” – Kirk ([06:28])
  • Noted that real change came when he focused on controlling his own behavior and emotional responses, which quickly led to positive shifts in his son ([06:50], [07:34]).

Parental Self-Awareness & Acceptance

• Honest Self-Reflection:

  • Admitted there was a period where he didn’t actually like how he engaged with his child, which was “more a reflection of my own immaturity” ([10:25]).
  • Recognized the importance of shifting focus from “he’s difficult” to “he has very distinct preferences and a strong internal drive” ([10:57]).

• Strengths of Strong-Willed Kids:

  • These children prioritize what they value, are strategic thinkers, and become deeply engaged when the subject matters to them ([12:33], [16:24]).
  • “When he's told something, he's not a compliant rule follower. He thinks about it, and then he has the courage to speak up. He doesn't always do it in the right way, but I can teach him how to do that better.” – Kirk ([08:55])

The Power of Regulation & Modeling

• Key Practicable Techniques:

  • Explains the importance of parents modeling regulation: “The quickest way to change your child is to first control your own behavior.” ([06:58])
  • Developed the habit of sitting down during crises or moments of conflict rather than standing and lecturing—“it’s almost impossible to yell at kids when you’re sitting” ([33:36]).
    • “I think you can sit. I think you can start with sitting. And then it becomes another part of my ADHD personality is a little bit of that addictive personality.” – Kirk ([36:23])

• Matter-of-Fact Tone:

  • Advocates for a calm, matter-of-fact tone that de-escalates situations, neither snotty nor condescending, but “here’s how life works” ([24:35]).

• Motion Changes Emotion:

  • Uses movement to shift emotional states—“Motion changes emotion”—and avoids talking at length when a child is overwhelmed ([24:36]).

Beyond Consequences: Teaching Self-Control Instead of Enforcing Obedience

• Limitations of Consequences:

  • “Consequences do not work for these kids… They care about their autonomy.” ([05:48], [20:12])
  • Instead of punishment, focus on pattern recognition and co-problem-solving. E.g., “Hey Case, I’ve noticed a pattern. Every time you use that tone with me, it usually tells me you’re anxious, you’re frustrated, or you’re hungry. So two options…” ([21:29]-[24:12])

• Inviting Cooperation, Not Imposing Control:

  • The goal is to teach kids to recognize and manage their own behavior, by providing choices and collaboratively brainstorming alternatives.

• On Sibling Conflict and Sneaky Behavior:

  • Reframes challenging behaviors as efforts to meet internal needs (e.g., brain stimulation, autonomy). Guides children to meet those needs positively (e.g., channeling mischief into entrepreneurial projects) ([26:13]-[28:44]).

Embracing Kids’ Priorities and Strengths

• Fostering Curiosity & Intrinsic Motivation:

  • “Our goal in school was not good grades. It was, we want to raise a curious child who loves to learn.” ([18:11])
  • Makes accommodations (e.g., advocating for reading about trucks instead of approved books) to support the child’s curiosity and engagement ([18:54]).

• Reframing Tasks & Demands:

  • Distinguishes between demands that matter (core values, learning) and those that don’t (e.g., chores that sap essential energy needed for bigger challenges) ([50:09]-[54:03]).
  • “I'm prioritizing. What do I really want right here… and I do that in my own life. Like I lower demands on myself by prioritizing.” – Kirk ([54:03])

Handling Anxiety and “Demand Avoidance”

• Strategies for Anxiety:

  • Instead of forcing kids to do something (like Taekwondo), Kirk helps his son prepare by visiting the location, meeting the instructor, and asking for a small job ([39:22]-[43:02]).
  • Normalizes anxiety for new situations, teaching that it’s “a smart, protective instinct—not something to be ashamed of” ([39:23]).

• Reframing PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance):

  • Rejects the notion that PDA kids are simply “demand avoidant.” Instead, says: “We categorically reject external demands that we think are arbitrary or stupid, and we place extraordinary demands on ourselves in areas that we care about.” ([44:08])
  • Warns against swinging to extremes (over-accommodating or over-forcing), and instead leads with empathy and practical supports to help kids master hard things ([46:57]-[50:09]).

Building Resilience, Preparing for Adulthood

• Long-Term Perspective:

  • Prioritizes raising kids who know themselves, make good decisions, and can advocate for their needs, rather than simply turning in homework or following arbitrary rules ([55:11]).
  • “Teaching them how to know themselves, how to make good decisions. That's what he does every day. And I'm like, that was a really good choice, Case. Good job.” ([55:23])

• Focusing on Strengths Over Weaknesses:

  • “I would rather spend 80 to 90% of my time cultivating my child's gifts, which is opposite of what we do now.” ([57:50])
  • Mitigates weaknesses only as necessary, spending most energy on skills that matter for the child’s future and mental health ([57:50]-[59:17]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Parental Control:

  • “The only person in life that I can control is myself. And when you try to control other people, it frustrates everybody.” – Kirk ([06:28])

• On Accepting Strong-Willed Kids:

  • “We love our kids, but they can tell if you don't like who they are.” – Kirk ([10:25])

• On the Purpose of School:

  • “Our goal in school was not good grades. It was, we want to raise a curious child who loves to learn.” – Kirk ([18:11])

• On Anxiety:

  • “So there's nothing wrong with me that I feel anxious? No, it’s smart. I'm asking you to do something you've never done before.” – Kirk ([41:24])

• On Demand Avoidance:

  • “We categorically reject external demands that we think are arbitrary or stupid, and we place extraordinary demands on ourselves in areas that we care about.” – Kirk ([44:08])

• On Simple Parenting Strategy:

  • “It is almost impossible to yell at kids when you're sitting down.” – Kirk ([33:36])
  • “I think you can sit. I think you can start with sitting.” – Kirk ([36:23])

• On Supporting Teens:

  • “[If] I clean his room, that takes the energy that I actually want him to spend at school...I just need him to cross the finish line.” – Kristin ([51:43])

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Important Timestamps

• Kirk’s Parenting Origin Story: [05:02] – [10:25]
• Power Struggles & Need for Control: [10:25] – [13:05]
• Reframing “Defiance” as Values-Driven: [16:24] – [18:11]
• Curiosity vs. Compliance in School: [18:11] – [20:12]
• Consequences vs. Self-Regulation: [21:29] – [28:44]
• The “Sit Down” Method: [33:36] – [36:23]
• Dealing with Anxiety & New Experiences: [39:22] – [43:02]
• PDA, Demands, & Meeting Kids Where They Are: [44:08] – [50:09]
• Prioritizing, Not Reducing Demands: [50:09] – [54:03]
• Focusing on Strengths/Adulthood Outlook: [55:10] – [59:17]

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How to Find More from Kirk Martin

• Website: celebratecalm.com
• Podcast: Calm Parenting Podcast
• Instagram: @calmparentingpodcast

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Final Reflection

Both Kirk and Kristin underscore that the real path forward for strong-willed or neurodivergent kids is for parents to regulate themselves, drop the quest for control, and reframe parenting as collaborative guidance, prioritizing connection, strengths, and validation. “Accept yourself on a deep level and know you don’t have to be like everybody else… And I can also give that to my kid, too.” – Kristin ([57:50])

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Transcript

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[Kristin Carter]

Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast where it's all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I'm your host Kristin Carter and I have adhd. Let's chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting relationships with, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder. I'll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B.

Hey, what's up? This is Kristen Carter and you have tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and ready to roll. What's up? Get in here. Get cozy, get comfy. I am so, so pumped for this episode today. We actually just finished recording so I am like flying high after this conversation. You are going to be obsessed with my guest. His name is Kirk Martin and he is the founder of Celebrate Calm and the Calm Parenting Podcast. I am telling you that this conversation is going to bring so much clarity, so much work wisdom to your parenting journey. Especially if you are parenting a kid who basically says f you every single time you ask them to do something. Every single time you want to get your kid to do the thing, they don't want to do the thing. This is the podcast for you. I am so pleased to have Kirk on the show today. I've been following on Instagram for a while. I've listened to his podcast. I have applied his wisdom to my own parenting journey and it turns out we have a ton in common. We just chit chatted for so long. It was so much fun. I know you are going to love this podcast. Let me tell you a little bit about him. So celebrate calm.com is his website and he is the host of the Calm Parenting podcast. And he has shown almost a million parents how to stop the yelling. Defiance and power struggles with the most strong willed children. You are going to love this episode. I feel so encouraged as a parent. My kids are almost 18, 16 and 12 and so I am in it. I am in the thick of it. And the wisdom that Kirk brings to this conversation is going to blow your mind. So please enjoy my conversation with Kirk Martin. Well, Kirk, welcome to the podcast. I'm so grateful to have you here. I've been following on Instagram, I've been listening to your podcast. Your calm parenting method is like, it's so, so, so, so good. All of it. So thanks for being here, Kristen.

[Kirk Martin]

Thank you. I am super psyched for this.

[Kristin Carter]

Cool. We're gonna have a great time. I am most interested to start with just kind of your journey with parenting your son Casey, because I think a lot of my listeners are going to relate to some of the difficulties that you faced with him and learning about yourself through that process. So would you just start off by telling us a little bit about your story?

[Kirk Martin]

Yeah. So I was raised by a career military father, which was awesome. And so when we had Casey, I always say he came out of the womb with boxing gloves on. He just liked to argue. He's very, very good at it. And part of that, by the way, is a really good thing because these kids see patterns and so they know the pattern of your argument. They can anticipate what you're going to say and do. That's why they're so good at tinkering things. But I didn't know that at first. I just thought, well, he just needs to Listen to me. And he needs. Just do what I tell him to do. And he, over time, start getting diagnosed as. Diagnosed with the entire Alphabet of everything. And through that, a couple things happened. One is I determined. Oh, I have all these same traits too. Right. Like, I couldn't blame it on my wife. Like, he's this way because of you. It was all came from me. And I began. You know, I spent the first few years of his life just trying to change him. Okay, you need to cut that out. Stop it. Because you know what it's like with these kids. Everything is difficult. Put your shoes on. Should be easy, but it's not. And then we're all told to do consequences. But these kids don't care about consequences. They care about their autonomy. They don't care about losing stuff. They don't want to lose their voice, their autonomy. So what I finally learned was I had to change and I had to grow up because I was expecting him to behave so that I could behave. It was like I needed him to control his emotions or I couldn't control my own. And so. But the cool thing you find out is, well, one is the only person in life that I can control is myself. And when you try to control other people, it frustrates everybody. And two, the quickest way to change your child is to first control your own behavior. So instead of focusing all of my energy, because you know how this is as a parent, you're like 24 hours a day, we're trying to figure this out. Like, what's going on? What do we need to do? What are the strategies I shifted into? What if I spend all of my energy just controlling my own tone of voice, my emotions, and how I respond to him? And that's what I did. And ironically, his behavior changed very quickly once I changed mine.

[Kristin Carter]

How old was he when you made that realization? Do you remember, like, what stage of childhood he was in?

[Kirk Martin]

Yeah, I think it was more around that. Six years old, you know, because when they're younger, you know, when they get older, you make fewer excuses, right? It's like you're old enough to know how to do this. That's like my old school guy voice. But when he. And then he also was getting better at arguing because he was more intelligent then and he could put together arguments. But it also hurt me more because I was a. I was a good dad. Like, I had good intentions. I didn't want to be like my dad. We spent a lot of time together. I just tended to sabotage our interactions. Like, we'd have a good time for 30 minutes, and then he'd do something and I would lose it. And then those 30 minutes of us bonding went out the window. And then my wife had to come in and be the referee and manage my emotions right? Because moms often have to take the temperature of the home. And then because the most common comment I get from men is like, oh, my wife just coddles our son. And I'm like, no, that's not what she's doing. She's coddling you. Because she. She would not have to jump in at dinner time and undermine your authority, as you say, if you first learned how to control yourself. Right. And. And that's a tough thing to swallow. But the beautiful part of this is once you work on yourself, you change as a human. It's awesome. And then you begin to see these kids. So instead of seeing my son as well, he's just defiant and disrespectful. I was like, this is a bright kid who actually thinks through things. And when he's told something, he's not a compliant rule follower. He thinks about it, and then he has the courage to speak up. He doesn't always do it in a. In the right way, but I can teach him how to do that better. But he thinks through things. He's got his own voice, he's confident. And the harder. One of the harder parts, Kristen, was I realized he's right half the time. Right. I was just like, well, I'm. I'm the adult. You need to do what I say. And then when I started controlling myself, I'd be like, that's a really good point, Casey. I'm not sure why we're doing that.

[Kristin Carter]

You admitted something in an Instagram reel that I thought was very difficult or it would have been difficult for me to admit, which was I kind of realized I didn't really like my kid that much or I wasn't acting like I liked him. It was, like, coming off like, I didn't really enjoy the person that he was. What was what? It takes so much self awareness to realize that about yourself. What was that like?

[Kirk Martin]

I think it's just honesty, right? Like, because we love our kids, but they can tell if you don't like who they are. And that, for me, was more a reflection of my own immaturity. And I wasn't. Look, this has nothing to do with, like, oh, you're just excusing. His behavior had nothing to do with that. It was just my prism of looking at him. Well, he's just Difficult all the time. And then it's reframing it to no. He has very distinct preferences about how he likes to do things. He has a vision in the morning of what he wants to accomplish that's very personal to him. And then he would determine, hey, these other things just don't matter to me, but they mattered a lot to me. And so the beautiful part of it is these kids force you to step back and say, is it really important? I'll give you a hard one. Following directions. In order to be successful in school, kids have to learn to follow directions. But in real life, following directions is basically a boring job where you don't get paid much because all you do is do what other people tell you to do. But the interesting, well paying jobs are no, you take information, you analyze it, and then you do a risk assessment and you're more of a leader and you make decisions. It's just that when you're raising kids, it's easier if they just do what you say all the time. It's just easier. And look, if I'm a teacher and I see the little ADHD kid come in my classroom, I'm not thrilled by that. Yeah, right. Like being honest, I want the little girl or boy who comes in and says, good morning, Ms. Henderson. What are we going to learn today? And then sits there, but in comes this kid who's a whirlwind. They're harder to teach, they're harder to parent. Right. Like that's human nature. But once you. Once I started to understand Casey, and this was interesting, I began to understand my own patterns too. Oh, this is why I don't always want to do things the way everybody else does things. And then I have to maximize the upside and minimize the downside to that.

[Kristin Carter]

Do you feel like learning to accept Casey was the, like a catalyst for learning about yourself or was it the other way around? You learned about yourself and then you were able to learn about him.

[Kirk Martin]

You know what? I think he, in my case, he was the catalyst because it was all an interplay between us of me wanting to be a good dad, realizing I had a lot of childhood wounds and just bad patterns from my own dad, and then wrestling with that. And then really once I started to slow my world down inside and instead of being reactive, I would watch Casey and I'd be like, okay, now I'm understanding why he does that. So I would step back and say, hey, Case, I'm curious, when you just said that to me, what was really going on? What are you trying to figure out. And he would explain it, right? And he'd say, dad, I've got conflicting things that I'm being told what to do and I'm trying to determine what's really important. And we had these great conversations. And over time I would say, hey, Case, look, I've noticed a pattern in my own life. And we would, we kind of learned about ADHD together. And so we would have these great talks where I'd say, case, look, school is going to be hard for you. It just is. School requires that you sit still all day, that you listen to someone talk about things you're not interested in. And truthfully, you probably won't use in life. You have to follow directions and do a lot of arbitrary things you don't want to do. So you are at times going to struggle with feeling like you're dumb or stupid or don't fit in. That's normal. But what I want you to know is in the real world, you have strategic thinking skills, good critical thinking skills, you know how to communicate, you are a leader, you're persuasive, you're persistent. All of those qualities in the adult world are going to serve you really well. And what he's told me recently, because he's, he's almost 33 now, he said, dad, when you would tell me that, it helped me put everything in context and know, okay, school is supposed to be hard for me right now, but I know long term because. And Chris and I would say almost all of us have kids like this. How many of your kids aren't always great at home or in school, but if they do something for another adult, they absolutely crush it. And other adults will come to you and say, like, your daughter is such a delight to be with. And you're like, seriously, she's not at home. Yes. And so I think perspective and context for our kids and you can say that for us as well, right? Like, I'm, I was never good in the corporate world and I used to beat myself up until I realized I don't want to go to things after work. Right? Like, hey, we're getting together after work. And I was like, I'm only with you all day because you're paying me right after work, I'm going home to my family. Well, that limited me in how far I went up in the corporate world, but that was okay because then you learn, okay, I'm living according to what I value most.

[Kristin Carter]

It feels like with our strong willed kids, that they are also living according to what they value most. And if we can figure out what it is that they value, then we can help to nurture that rather than, like, fight against it.

[Kirk Martin]

Yes. I think, you know, I just. I've been doing some things on pda. Pathological demand avoidance, or some people say, pervasive drive for autonomy. And, you know, one of the superpowers these kids have, and I'd say a lot of our neurodivergent kids have, is the ability to prioritize. They have a very strong BS meter.

[Kristin Carter]

Yes.

[Kirk Martin]

It's built into them. And so you'll see them get indignant about things. Whereas, like, if you are a more of a people pleaser or are married to a people pleaser, well, they'll just go along. Well, no, I just go along with the flow. I just do what they tell me because then it's easier. And a lot of parents will say, well, it would just be easier if our kids just did what they were told. And I was like, but they don't care about easy. Easy is not the goal. I want to live true to who I am. I have very strong ideas about what I actually care about. And you'll notice with these kids, when they care about something, they are focused, they're conscientious, they remember details, they. They can do everything we want them to do.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kirk Martin]

And so anyway. But that prioritization thing, they will. I'm actually writing a podcast episode today about that with. With the idea that these kids will force you to say, okay, this is what is important in school, and this is what isn't important.

[Kristin Carter]

So true.

[Kirk Martin]

Right. Like, so I'd say my first thing I'm going to write about is define what you want. So our goal in school was not good grades. It was, we want to raise a curious child who loves to learn. So everything that supports curiosity will feed everything that shuts down curiosity and loving to learn. No, we say no to. So a simple one is, in second grade, all the approved books were little books, honestly, that girls like to read because 90% of teachers are women are female. And so our son wanted to read about trucks and blowing things up. And so I had to go in respectfully and say, look, I love how much you care about our son and want to teach him. I do want you to know a couple things. We will not always be doing homework. It's not always going to get done, but we will always be learning. At night, sometimes we'll do homework. Some nights, we will play outside. We'll do experiments. We will read. And then the second thing is we're not always going to read the books that are approved by a school board that's usually sorry, stupid, and has. Don't know anything about education anyway. But we're always going to be reading. We just want our son to love reading. So if he wants to read about some truck, we're reading about trucks. And so we didn't do it in a disrespectful way because teachers are also frustrated by school boards and what the administrators do. But anyway, they're really good. Casey, to this day, and it's something we do together now, is, especially as I get older, prioritizing. You can't do everything. And so you determine what is important and what's not. And I think it's a superpower that many of our kids have.

[Kristin Carter]

Yeah. And if we can really see the good in them, and I think that, like, you spoke to it a little bit earlier, like, not just loving them as your child, but, like, really liking them and seeing them for the person that they are, then we can foster that and we can, like, breathe life into it. I'm curious what you would say. It's so obvious, and I've heard you talk about it, that, like, consequences do not work for these kids. They don't care about consequences. But also, parents have to have some semblance of, like, boundaries. So what is your advice to parents who are listening, who are like, okay, I hear what you're saying, and like, this sounds great, but my kid is, like, breaking every single rule. I feel like it's chaotic. I don't know how to. And I think the word that I'm trying not to use is control. So maybe you can speak to that a little bit, because I think it's so honest for parents to just want control. And the our, whether it's PDA defiant, or just like, they have their own will, they are not interested in being controlled.

[Kirk Martin]

Right. So I would say that what shifted was from me controlling Casey's behavior to teaching him how to control his own behavior. And it shifted from, okay, I, as the father, as the authority figure, teacher, mother, father, am going to impose outward consequences on you for behavior, because that becomes this kind of like, I'm over here and I'm just going to kind of like, strike you down and tell you to stop doing stuff. Now I'm coming alongside and saying, hey, here's our goal. Here's the very clear boundaries. Let me show you three different ways to handle that situation. Right. So instead of, like, this may not be the best example. I'll try to get some better ones. But, like, even when he was mouthy with me, it used to the. At first, it was always like, you can't talk to your father like that. That's disrespectful. Then I would say, hey, Case, I've noticed a pattern. Every time you use that tone with me, it usually tells me you're anxious, you're frustrated, or you're hungry. So two options. Now, let me go through, because this one actually may be pretty decent. Two options. Now, you may continue to talk to me like that if you want. It's just not going to serve you well. Like, it doesn't. Like it doesn't work for you. And you can feel, even in that tone, it's not like you can't talk to me. It's like, you can do that if you want. As you've noticed, that doesn't get you the result that you want. But if you want to grab some chips, I'll grab some salsa. I'll meet you out on the deck. I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. So the first thing that I did was control myself, but also identify. Hey, Case, I've noticed this pattern. Anxious, frustrated, or you're hungry. So now I'm helping. I'm teaching him. You get attitude and tone and defiant. When you're either hungry, anxious because a lot of our kids struggle with anxiety, or you're frustrated or overwhelmed. Well, now he's starting to learn different language from. Well, you're just a defiant kid. You need to stop it. No, I get. I become a jerk, too, when I'm hungry or I'm running late. Right. Flustered. Like. Like, for those who don't know, like, we. At the beginning of this podcast, before we went on, there were some technical issues. And Kristen was, obviously, because she's a conscientious, caring person, was apologizing to me like, oh, I'm so sorry for this. And I could hear your stress. Yeah, right. Because. But see, instead of like, well, you know, if you wouldn't have been late, we wouldn't have had to do that. Yeah, well, that's not helpful.

[Kristin Carter]

Yeah, right.

[Kirk Martin]

But what we realize is you are conscientious and want to do your best, but that stress is what gets us. So anyway, so I identified that. I gave him a couple options. You can do that. See, I like to. When I discipline, I don't do snotty tone. I don't do really sweet tone. Oh, honey, you know, you really need to think, because that's condescending.

[Kristin Carter]

It is.

[Kirk Martin]

So I just laid it out. Hey, look, this is how life works. When you talk to mom or dad like that, it's not going to work for you. But my energy always goes to problem solving. Hey, you grab some chips. I'll grab some salsa. One of our phrases is, motion changes emotion. I like using movement. These are ADHD kids. Using too many words when they're upset or frustrated will make them furious. Right? So it's, hey, that's not going to work. Here's what will. And look, I'm leading. Why don't you grab some chips, I'll grab some salsa. And then I go. And I would sit there at the table, and then he would come and I'd say, hey, so I'm curious what's going on? And I did that for almost all of his behavior was, hey, I know you know that's wrong. I know you know that's wrong. You can't. You can't sneak your iPad in the middle of the night. So I'm curious, right? Because. Because otherwise all it becomes is, you can't do that. Why did you do that? I don't know. Well, of course we know why they did it. Because it's fun. Yeah, it's fun to sneak stuff in the middle of the night. Why do I eat brownies before I go to bed sometimes? Because they taste amazing. So instead. So he would sneak the iPad, and I'd say, case, I'm curious. What are you getting out of that? And so with our ADHD kids, a lot of it is, okay. There's the anticipation of sneaking something. After my parents go to bed, they have to use their strategic thinking skills to know when mom and dad are asleep. Then they have to use all of those great sneaky skills to get downstairs, find the iPad in the. Picked the lock, right? That you've put it in some cabinet. So there's a challenge there. There's brain stimulation, and then there's a sense of accomplishment. Like, so when Case and I started having talks like that, it was, hey, I know you know that's wrong. I'm curious what's going on? And there were, like, five different needs that were getting met. And I was like, okay, that makes sense to me that you would sneak that in the middle of the night. Here's what you know is you'll eventually get caught. Then you'll lose the iPad for two weeks. You don't want that. So how can we meet those same internal needs for brain stimulation, whatever it is, in a positive way? And if I Can expand this really quickly. It's the same thing. Two siblings fighting in the living room. Why can't you guys play well together? I buy you all these toys, you can't even play. Instead, I go in and I sit on the floor and I'm like, hey, provoking child. I know why you did that. Because you got bored and all you have to do is poke your brother and then he gets upset, and then I get upset, and then your dad or mom, they get upset. And so you're controlling everyone. So that is not going to work for you long time term. So, kids sneaking the iPad. Kid picking on brother. I've got another idea. You're like a born entrepreneur. You love money, you've got a big heart. What if we created a little side business for you in the neighborhood? You could make some money. Then you can give some of that money away to a charity. Maybe kids who have cancer. I'll match that. You want to start spending all of your energy instead of sneaking the iPad, we can put that same amount of energy into building a little business. So. Right. So I'm teaching how they're made. Because what I wanted for Casey was when he became when he was 25 and he had a need for brain stimulation that he would know, okay, Gambling, looking up things on the Internet. I didn't want him doing that in negative ways. I wanted him to recognize, yes, an ADHD kid, I need a lot of brain stimulation. So that's why I got into like ski mountaineering. Because that's a healthy way to meet that need and not be a jerk, as we like to say.

[Kristin Carter]

Oh, it's so good.

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[Kristin Carter]

Okay? This all hangs on our ability to be regulated enough in the moment to be curious instead of enraged. And I. I'm wondering if you can help us understand either how we can or maybe how you got to the place where you went from kind of militant and reactive to being able to have the capacity to be curious. Because everybody listening has adhd and they're like, well, that would be great, but I'm exploding in the moment. Or I am like, I don't feel like I'm in control. How does someone, or how did you get to the point where you could, instead of screaming and yelling, be calm and curious?

[Kirk Martin]

So I'd say the first thing was recognizing that I had to relinquish the need to control other people. But I kept a very high need

[Kristin Carter]

that, you know, it always comes.

[Kirk Martin]

Yeah, but I kept. Yes, but I mean, tell me when it works. It doesn't. Literally, it doesn't work. If it worked, I do it. But I do have a very high need to control myself and control my surroundings. Right. So I didn't relinquish that. Like, I'm. I'm. I have some OCD type qualities, right. Of things that are regimented, that I do that are the same. Why? Because that helps control me. That. So there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I wear the same. I mean, you'll see me in the interview. I wear the same clothes all the time, the same hat. Why? Because I don't have to think about it. I have the same breakfast every day. I have the same salad for the last year and a half. It's a really Good one. Spinach, goat cheese and pistachios. It's awesome. You know why? Because I don't have to wonder what I'm having for lunch. I already know. And so. But anyway, so let me stay focused on this. I have a relentless need to control things, but I put that into controlling myself. So I'll give you two simple ones for the next week. For the moms and dads out there, just sit down. Whenever there's. When there's chaos, kids are getting upset. What do we do? We walk into the room and now we've got like our Italian hands going and hands on our hips. And that creates a defensive response in our kids. And so I began because I was son of a career military dad who screamed and yelled. I'm a very intense, emotional person. I would just sit because it is almost impossible to yell at kids when you're sitting down. Like, look how you're sitting right now. You're sitting. Most of you are listening on audio, but Kristen's sitting with her legs crossed right in a very. There is no way that you could yell. Maybe you could. If you're really intense, it just feels more relaxed.

[Kristin Carter]

You're right, you're right.

[Kirk Martin]

And the beautiful part, I know it sounds like, well, don't you have a 10 step plan? I'm like, you have ADHD. You're not remembering 10 steps. What you can remember. And what I can remember is I sit. It changes my tone of voice. And I would encourage, especially moms have a hard time with this because it sounds kind of cold. Practice this even matter of fact tone because it is immediately calming to yourself and to your kids. Hey, Case, I can see what's going on right now. See, that's a lot different than, you know what, as soon as you hear your voice go, you know what? How many times like, nothing good is happening in the next 10 minutes after that tone. Like, nothing. And so what I learned was I didn't have to control my son. I didn't have to control. We used to have these camps where we'd have like 10 to 15 ADHD neurodivergent spectrum kids in our home. Kristen. Honestly, that's probably where I learned this. I can't control 10 kids in my home. But what I could control is, okay, we're going to the pool. Okay, try to get 10 ADHD kids to get ready to go to the pool an hour and a half later. So instead what I would do is because it would be frustrating. Guys, guys, do you want to go to the pool or don't you want to go to the pool? Because if you don't get sunscreen on and grab your towel and put it in, and then I'm just creating all this chaos. And they. These kids already have enough chaos in their brains. So I remember one day I was like, I can't control them. I walked into our living room because we had these camps at our house, and I put a swim towel around my neck and I had my swim clothes on, and I sat by the front door. I didn't say a word. And I watched one by one, the kids looked over and they saw, oh, we're going to the pool. And then there was recognition. And they got up and they went and got ready, and then they came and sat next to me. Why? Because kids are drawn to anyone who's sitting. Like, if you were to go to a mall this afternoon and just sit in the middle of a floor, a bunch of little kids would come around because everybody like, are you going to talk to us? Are you going to read us a book? Are you going to sing with us? Because when we're sitting, we're not usually yelling. And so I think it's Christians recognizing I have a tremendous amount of power simply by controlling my tone of voice, my emotions. And it serves. Here's. Maybe this helps. I think ADHD people, parents, we are very purposeful people. We're driven by meaning. You're a very compassionate people. And so to me, it's a form of loving your kids and loving and valuing yourself to stop self sabotaging, right? Of like, well, I just can't do it. Like, but I. I think you can sit. I think you can start with sitting. And then it becomes another part of my ADHD personality is a little bit of that addictive personality, right? Of finding. Well, what I saw was, wait, when I sit down and use that tone with my son, he actually sits with me and we have conversations instead of confrontations. Oh, that's pretty cool. I don't know if that makes sense,

[Kristin Carter]

but that I am obsessed because every single parent listening to this podcast has the ability to sit. Like, I might not have the ability to regulate perfectly. I might not have the ability to be immediately calm instead of reactive, but I for sure know that I can sit. And even just that, like, full body response, it's like a. It's an indicator to our own bodies. Like, we're doing something different here. We're making a different choice. And I agree with you. My listeners know my parenting journey. But just in a NutShell, I have three boys and I also started off very authoritative, militant, kind of fundamental, traditional. And it did not work. It did not work. And as I began to shift and have those calmer moments, it is addicting. It is like, oh, my gosh, they are like, this is happening differently and they're responding to me differently. And we are having these conversations and there is a deeper connection here. And once you kind of unlock that superpowerability, there is something to that where it's like, I want more of this. That like, I can feel the difference. And not that I never yell, but like, when I do, I want to self correct because I know that I want to go back to that connection point. It's yes.

[Kirk Martin]

And I, I, I honestly think that ADHD parents have an advantage in the sense that we're tend to be very purposeful people with big hearts and that connection piece. So, so I'll give you one anxiety. A lot of our kids struggle with anxiety. So I asked my son, hey, Case, do you want to do Taekwondo in this? You know, in, in May? And he'd be like, sure, sign me up. But then the first class comes. I'm like, case, we gotta go, dad, my stomach's upset. I don't feel good. I promise I'll go next week and my old school will be like, you know What? I paid $180 for that class. Your butt's gonna be there. Get in the car. And then we'd have a three hour meltdown.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kirk Martin]

But one of the beautiful parts was when I learned how to problem solve with him. I'd say, hey, is your stomach a little bit upset? He'd be like, huh? I'd be like, yeah, it should be. Because that's anxiety. It's perfectly normal. Like you're going to a new place where you've never been with kids who you may not connect with with an adult who may not be patient with you. Of course you wouldn't want to go. That makes perfect sense to me. And I could read his eyes and he'd be like, oh, so there's nothing wrong with me that I feel anxious? No, it's smart. I'm asking you to do something you've never done before. It would be weird if you just jumped in the car and I could see him kind of exhale of like, okay, so my stomach should be upset. Yeah. When I give a presentation at the office, my stomach's upset. When I have to have a hard talk with someone, my stomach's upset. Before almost every phone consultation, I do my Stomach gets upset because I'm anxious because these people are paying me money. What if I don't have a good answer for them? What if they don't like me? Yeah, it's perfectly normal. So here's what else I know about anxiety case. Anxiety is caused by unknowns. So whenever I go to someplace new, I always create a little control for myself. A mission. And so what we would do is, I said, why don't we go like three days early, we'll go to that Taekwondo place where you can sit and just observe other classes. When there's no pressure to perform, we'll take snacks because that familiarity is, like, really important. And then we'll meet the Taekwondo instructor. Not on the first night that you're going to. And then I would introduce him. I'd say, hey, Mr. Taekwondo, this is my son. Casey gets a little anxious, but, man, he loves doing jobs for other people, and most of our kids are really good at that. Could you give my son a job to do? I didn't ask him, hey, will you be really nice to my son? Will you let my son play more or be on the starting team for a sport? No, I just said, hey, if you give him a job to do, you will absolutely own my son. Because he loves helping adults. He won't do anything in my house, but he will help you. Right? And so I was. So one of the addictive parts was I was teaching my son about life and I was helping him instead of getting frustrated. Like, I signed you up for a class, you told me you wanted to do it, and now you won't go, we're going to be late, and I wasted all that money, and now we have to fight. I got it out of me sense of, like, what's in it for me? And now I'm like, oh, let me teach you a skill. So for the rest of your life, when you feel anxious, you know exactly how to handle it. Casey's almost 33. We talk about it all the time. He just. He's on this trip right now, and it was a very. He's doing a ski mountaineering thing in these really dangerous mountains. So I was like, he's like, dad, I'm really worried. And I was like, good, I'm glad. Please, Right? I don't want you being carefree around avalanches. And we talked through it, and he did the same thing at 33 that we were doing when he was 8 when he went in and he said, hey, can I get there a little bit early? Can we look at the Maps of where we're going to be skiing and can you give me a job to do? I do really well. So it's cool to see age 8 and then in his 30s using the same skills.

[Kristin Carter]

My heart is just so full. I just. I like. Parenting is such a privilege. It is such a privilege. My kids are not as old as yours are, but I am seeing glimmers of that and it gives me so much hope for the future. That's so beautiful.

[Kirk Martin]

It's gonna be awesome. Because you're awesome. Now you have a little filly in you, so you're always gonna have a little bit of like. Right? Just kidding.

[Kristin Carter]

There are times when I intentionally choose not to be calm, and those times are centered around mostly the Philadelphia Eagles, but other than that.

[Kirk Martin]

Other than that, sport.

[Kristin Carter]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on pda, if you wouldn't mind sharing because you have some outside of the box perspective sometimes. I've heard from you that, like, calling our PDA kids demand avoidant really might not be the very best label. And I just am curious if you would help us understand your perspective on pda.

[Kirk Martin]

Okay, I'll give you mine. From Casey has. Casey and I both have most of the traits associated with pda, so my perspective is from the inside. I hate the term demand avoidant for this reason. I think kids and people with pda, we are not demand avoidant. We categorically reject external demands that we think are arbitrary or stupid, and we place extraordinary demands on ourselves. Your kids with PDA place extraordinary demands on themselves in areas that they care about. Like, if you have a kid who wants to. I like this example. And this relates to our, you know, our other kids as well. So think about this. You've got two kids and say you have like, the more compliant, easy child. And then you have one of our kids and they both come home after school and you're say, we'll just say, the compliant daughter, she does her homework. But for many of our kids, those kids, homework's really easy. It just comes naturally to them and they actually enjoy it. It's like, oh, I did a worksheet and that feels good and I have a sense of accomplishment. And mom and dad say, oh, you're so conscientious and good at schoolwork. And then the next morning, the teacher's going to say, oh, man, you got that done. You are such a good student. Well, she's beaming. Well, then we have one of our kids who comes home who's been at school all day, so please forgive me for this. But don't ask your kids how their day was if they don't like school, right? Like, how was your day at that place where you're bored and don't have any friends and hate it all day long? How was it today, right? It's like, don't even ask. But this child comes home and all day long he's been thinking about this really cool LEGO or Connects project he's going to build. And while building, there are all these decisions that have to be made about, how big am I going to build it? And there's physics in there and there's architecture and there's math and there's risking things because it's highly personal to them, by the way. That's why your kids get so upset when something goes wrong that they're doing and they, like, lash out and throw things or like, this is stupid and I'm stupid because it's so personal and it's a reflection in some ways of who they are. I'm not always good at school or behavior or sports, but I'm really good at building. And if my project doesn't turn out well, well, now I feel like a failure. And so they're having to tweak it and maybe it's off balance and they're doing all this thinking, but they didn't do their homework. And the next morning they go to school and all they get is, why didn't you do your homework? But I guarantee that kid who built something or built their own robot did more intellectual thinking the previous night than maybe the more compliant kid did doing their homework worksheet. And so they place extraordinary demands on themselves. I think the other problem I have is I don't like framing it as well. We just need to reduce demands on them because it eventually devolves into, well, I'm not going to ask my child to do anything hard because they'll just get upset. And what I'd rather do is shift it and say, yes, this is difficult. What I'm asking my child to do is difficult for them. Now I'm going to give my child tools in order to help them do something difficult. I'm not going to do the traditional. If you don't do that, you're going to lose stuff. I'm not going to do the old school. Like, I'm just going to push you into a pool and you'll learn how to swim. It doesn't have to be either. I think, Kristen, there are so many extremes now of like, well, my son is in Burnout. So I'm going to let him be on Minecraft and give food deliveries for nine months. Like, that's not good. Like, just letting a kid. Like, there's no mental health professional ever who would say if a child has some kind of nervous system disability, being on screens for extended times is healthy. Like, is. We know that well. But if I don't let him play Minecraft and I try to get him outside, he's going to get really upset. Yes, he is, and I get that. But my job is to lead my child with compassion, with empathy, through difficult things so that my child learns I can do some of those hard things. It's hard to do in a short podcast, but I think our kids are capable of a lot more than we let on if we give them the tools. But we also don't have to dismiss them and say, oh, it's no big deal. No. I always say no, I'm asking you to do, like, the Taekwondo example. I'm asking you to do something that is very, very difficult. And if I were you, I'd probably want to stay home, too. But I also know maybe I'll finish it this way. I'm a grown adult, and I've been through these situations in life before, and there have been hundreds and thousands of times I didn't want to do something, but when I had some tools and I ended up doing it, I was so gratified, and I was proud of myself on the other end. And I want you to feel that. I want you to know that you are capable of doing that. So I think there's a balance where we can say, yeah, that's hard. But my compassionate side says I also want to lead you to be able to do some things so that you'll be proud of yourself and you don't miss out on things for the rest of your life. Does that make sense?

[Kristin Carter]

Absolutely. And I think one component that I'd like to add is, as a parent, how can I help? Like, how can I add support so that we can both move toward the same goal? So if the goal is Taekwondo, just like you said, kind of pushing him into the pool and saying, like, go learn how to swim, not gonna be helpful. How, as a parent, can I help? If I'm parenting, I'm trying to drag my senior son across the finish line of school, I'm just like, come on, let's just cross the finish line. And one of the things that I have been really trying to do is how can I support him at home so that he can go and do the hard thing at school, which is play the game, fake it, pretend he cares about stuff that he doesn't care about, right? So he's faking all day long doing something that he absolutely hates and doesn't see the value in. How can I be helpful to him at home so that he can go and do that at school so he can like spend his energy where it actually matters, right? So like if I clean his room, he's almost 18, he can clean his own gosh darn room. But if he cleans his room, that takes the energy that I actually want him to spend at school because I just need him to cross the room.

[Kirk Martin]

Can I give you a reframe? Yeah, can I give you a reframe for that? Because I love that. So that would be like, well, I'm going to reduce demands. I would say, no, that's. I'm prioritizing. Exactly right, you're prioritizing. What do I really want right here for my 18 year old son to clean his room, which he's probably never cleaned anyway, which was our son. And it's like, no, because you may like cleaning. Like I tell parents that all the time. Like just put on some music, pop into the room, organize it, clean it. As long as it's for older kids, not like invasion of privacy for them or whatever. Just go do it right? Like or, or you can spend like 18 years being upset and it still won't work. Like I will tell you, Casey was a disaster as a kid. He owns his own home seven minutes from here. It is spot. It's not spotless. It's very clean. It's organized. You have to, when you go into his home, you have to take off your shoes.

[Kristin Carter]

Love it.

[Kirk Martin]

So you don't trap dirt in his home. And it's like, wait, because he, the first time he told us that, I was like, wait, what? You like, you attracted dirt. You were like the dirt monster as a kid with your nasty hockey gloves. You smelled your entire childhood and now it's like, dad, I own my own home. It's mine, right? They change. So let me do a quick reframe. So what you're doing there is saying, okay, I know that my 17 or 18 year old son has limited energy for school, doesn't like it, it's boring, all those things. So I'm just going to prioritize. So I'm going to take care of that. And I do that in my own life. Like I lower demands on myself, so to speak, by prioritizing. And wearing the same clothes, having a set schedule. We eliminate a lot of stuff. Why? Because we really value freedom. We value. Hiking is my therapy. So my Instagram is actually my therapy because in order to do videos, I have to go hike in order to do them. Well, that's therapeutic for me. And so I. So I don't see that as. I just see that as being smart.

[Kristin Carter]

Yes.

[Kirk Martin]

Right. And prioritizing.

[Kristin Carter]

Yeah.

[Kirk Martin]

And so. So I'm good with that. And I think that's the right way to look at it, because I don't want to create kids who sometimes feel like they're not capable. So I just say, hey, like, what you're doing with your son is, hey, we've got a definite goal. We've got a couple months here. You need to pass these stupid classes that don't matter, that you will never use in life. You got to play the game, get the diploma. So here's what we're going to do. We did that with Casey. I mean, he had to take. We homeschooled for a while. There were times when we lived in Virginia, I would basically take part of the state test for him. Why is it. Well, that's cheating. Fine. I saw it as prioritizing and being smart. It was just a dumb test. How many of our kids. I know that sounded awful. Now, I want you to cut it. But don't. But what it is, is we as adults have life experience to know a lot of the things we ask kids to do, they just don't matter.

[Kristin Carter]

It's so true.

[Kirk Martin]

Right? I'm watching. I'm watching Casey as a grown adult navigate his life. And there are very few times where I ever say, like, wow, I wish we would have focused a little bit more on homework. Like, that never has happened. He's a good thinker. He's a compassionate kid. He treats people really well. It's like, you live in Philly, which is really intense, like, East Coast. I mean, most of America is. But I want parents to know, like, it's always like, we have to do this. We have to do this. And most of those things, when your kids are older, you're going to be like, that didn't matter at all. It literally didn't matter. Teaching them how to know themselves, how to make good decisions. That's what he does every day. And I'm like, that was a really good choice, Case. Good job. But it wasn't like. Like, with school. I'll give you one more. He was never good at math. Never. So I knew he's not going to be a physicist. He wasn't going to be an astronaut. He wasn't smart enough for that. Well, good. So we didn't spend countless days and hours worrying about math, so I taught him practical math. He knows how to invest. He knows how to budget. He doesn't know science, but he knows science when it comes to weather and avalanches. Practical parts, very important. So anyway. Yes, very important to save his life. Anyway, that was a little rambling. I'm sorry about that.

[Kristin Carter]

I'm obsessed. I love it. I could talk to you for hours. I just so appreciate you sharing your wisdom. I know that there are going to be a lot of parents listening, feeling just more empowered and more equipped to approach their kids. You know, I think we have to accept ourselves and our own neurodivergencies so that we can give that gift to our kids and. And capitalize on their strengths and, like, notice their weaknesses. Okay, how are we going to work around that? How are we going to mitigate that? How are we going to figure, like, is this a skill that you actually have to have? Do you actually have to know how to, like, sit and take that state test? Or have we already confirmed that you have all of these skills and this test is, like, really does not matter. And I think that so much of parenting is that negotiation. So much of it. And. But we can't give that freedom to our kids unless we give it to ourselves. And we say, like, I know who I am. I know I have strengths. I know that I, like, support myself in different ways. And I can also give that to my kid, too.

[Kirk Martin]

I love that. I mean, you're teaching them life. Like, Casey has watched me of, like, dad, you're really good at X, Y, and Z. So our kind of formula is, I would rather spend 80 to 90% of my time cultivating my child's gifts, which is opposite of what we do now. It's kind of like, oh, there I have a weakness. Let's do a class. They have to go to a tutor. They have to do. It's like, do that. And then my whole goal with Casey is, hey, you're just not. Not naturally good at this. So let's just, to your words, mitigate the downside so that I can. So you can play. So he's watched me, like, my podcast, how I do our business. I just get on and I just start talking. I don't have upfront music. I don't have, like, an official introduction. Why I don't want to do it that way. I like doing it my way, and so I know there are downsides, like, I'm not a good collaborator and it's one of my weaknesses, but I love being alone and I like doing it my way. So anyway, it's cool and I just encourage all the parents. Like, I love what you just said. Accept yourself on a deep level and know you don't have to be like everybody else. I don't want to be like the other normal people. I find them boring. Kind of kidding, but not really. So anyway, I love it.

[Kristin Carter]

Kind of tell us how to engage with your work. Where? Where can we find you? Where can we listen to you? Where can we get more of you?

[Kirk Martin]

That sounds so weird. I'm me. I'm like, you don't want more of me? I barely want more of me. So, Calm Parenting Podcast. If you look that up, you'll find us. I just started a PDA parent podcast. You can find them anywhere. Our website is celebrate calm.com, which is a dumb name, but they're both there. And then if you do like social media, we have a very active Instagram page and I interact with people and answer questions there. And that's Calm Parenting Podcast.

[Kristin Carter]

Love it. Thank you so much. Appreciate. I really appreciate your wisdom.

[Kirk Martin]

Truly, you are awesome. Thank you for what you do. I appreciate it.

[Kristin Carter]

A few years ago, I went looking for help. I wanted to find someone to teach

me how to feel better about myself

and to help me improve my organization, productivity, time management, emotional regulation. You know, all the things that we adults with ADHD struggle with. I couldn't find anything, so I researched and I studied and I hired coaches and I figured it out. Then I created Focused for you. Focused is my monthly coaching membership where I teach educated professional adults how to accept their ADHD brain and hijack their ability to get stuff done. Hundreds of people from all over the world are already benefiting from this program, and I'm constantly confident that you will too. Go To I have ADHD.com focused for all the details.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is sponsored by AG1. If you have ADHD, you probably know this about yourself. It's not that you don't care about your health. It's that consistency is really hard. For me. It's never about not knowing what to do. It's about actually doing the things that I know I should do every day,

[Kristin Carter]

especially when life gets busy.

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This is why AG1 has been such a helpful anchor for me. AG1 is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, vitamin, pre and probiotics superfoods and antioxidants all in one scoop. I drink it with about 10 ounces of water and that's it. No multiple supplements, no complicated routine. Just one simple habit that I can keep, even on the days when everything else falls apart. AG1's next gen formula has 75 ingredients and is clinically shown to support gut health and fill common nutrient gaps. And for me, it's one small way to take care of myself that actually sticks. I use it every single day. Truly. And you should too. AG1 has over 50,000 verified five star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. Visit drinkag1.com ihabadhd to get a free AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 in your AG1 welcome kit when you first subscribe. That's a $72 value. That's drinkag1.com ihaveadhd.