Karine Rusasabagina (1:50)

We thought, okay, things are moving. We're almost there. We have hope again. And then Paul Kagame says, no, it will take an invasion for me to release him. And again, they take the hope away.

Narrator/Host (2:00)

And this is Tatiana, Paul's wife.

Tatiana Rusasabagina (2:03)

That time we were desperate think that maybe it could not happen. We were anxious.

Narrator/Host (2:14)

But to people more experienced in negotiations, Kagame's no wasn't exactly a no. The Rwandan president might have been toughening

Narrator/Host (2:23)

his position, but he wasn't closing the door.

John Tomashevsky (JT) (2:26)

Sure, President Kagame made comments at a SEMAFOR event, and certainly they were the reflection of the official government position at that moment, at that time.

Narrator/Host (2:34)

This is John Tomashevsky. People know him as jt.

Narrator/Host (2:38)

He works on the Senate Foreign Relations

Narrator/Host (2:40)

Committee as the lead Africa Policy Director for the Republican side and was deeply involved in the effort to secure Paul's release.

John Tomashevsky (JT) (2:47)

But it didn't mean that conversations weren't happening, that people weren't dialoguing.

Narrator/Host (2:52)

JT had helped push through two initiatives

Narrator/Host (2:54)

that were now weighing heavily on Kagame. His boss, Senator Jim Risch, was threatening to withhold $90 million in US aid

Narrator/Host (3:02)

to Rwanda and the United States had

Narrator/Host (3:05)

formally declared Paul as wrongfully detained.

Narrator/Host (3:09)

As diplomatic measures go, these were tough

Narrator/Host (3:11)

ones for Kagame, who was also facing a series of lawsuits around the world for abducting and jailing Paul.

John Tomashevsky (JT) (3:18)

The fact that you had this litigation in the United States that was ongoing was a real pressure point. People were talking about that in a way that was really sort of a focus point. The other piece of this was that the unlawful detention designation put another level into this of attention, resource. And so you had this sort of coalescing of different factors and it's somewhere points just converged.

Narrator/Host (3:47)

The points just converged, the pressure and the diplomacy.

Narrator/Host (3:52)

But Kagame needed one other thing. If he was going to reverse himself and release Paul, he needed a way

Narrator/Host (3:58)

to explain to his people why this man he described as a dangerous terrorist could suddenly go free. This again is Paul's daughter.

Karine Rusasabagina (4:07)

The Rwandan government needed to save face. And then how can the government justify having kidnapped a man, reduced all the resources of the state to go after him, try to shame him through a sham trial, imprison him, spent all this money on the propaganda and the PR and then having to release him? They needed something to save face.

Narrator/Host (4:34)

Pretty quickly, Paul's team came up with

Narrator/Host (4:36)

the idea of a letter, a pardon request from Paul Rosasobogina directly to Paul

Narrator/Host (4:41)

Kagame, conceding some amount of guilt and

Narrator/Host (4:44)

making some pledges for the future.

Narrator/Host (4:47)

The right formulation could potentially break the logjam. But it was a delicate task. If the letter included too much contrition,

Narrator/Host (4:56)

Paul might not agree to sign it. Not enough. And Kagame might not accept it.

Narrator/Host (5:03)

Welcome to After Hotel Rwanda, a four

Narrator/Host (5:06)

part series from Foreign Policy on the abduction and jailing of Paul Rusasabagina and the incredible effort it took to bring him home. I'm Robbie Grammer, national security reporter at Foreign Policy magazine today. Episode 4 Homecoming

Narrator/Host (5:27)

the task of drafting

Narrator/Host (5:28)

the pardon request fell to Ryan Fahey, the well connected Washington lawyer who was helping Paul's family get him released.

Narrator/Host (5:36)

In more normal circumstances, an attorney and

Narrator/Host (5:38)

his client would write the letter together. But Paul was locked up across an ocean getting just five minute calls a week with his family.

Ryan Fahey (5:47)

It was a big challenge to write. We spent a lot of time, probably as long as I've ever spent writing one Page A, one page let.

Narrator/Host (5:57)

That's Fahey in an interview some months ago. The letter would cite Paul's age and health situation. He was 67 years old and had various medical conditions. That much was easy.

Narrator/Host (6:09)

The trickier part was figuring out what

Narrator/Host (6:10)

crimes Paul might be willing to take responsibility for. He'd been convicted on charges of terrorism,

Narrator/Host (6:17)

but insisted from the get go that

Narrator/Host (6:18)

the accusations were made up.

Ryan Fahey (6:20)

Paul very clearly was critical of the Rwandan government. He used this podium that he had coming out of all of his experiences to be a democracy advocate to very clearly seek regime change in Rwanda. Like, there's no mincing words over this, but he is not a military official. He could not order and would not order the death of Rwandan citizens. And so getting to a place where you can reconcile the reality of the facts with the public allegations that the Rwandan government had pursued is very, very, very difficult.

Narrator/Host (6:59)

So Paul couldn't take responsibility for the

Narrator/Host (7:01)

violence, that much was clear.

Narrator/Host (7:04)

But could he acknowledge attacks by the

Narrator/Host (7:06)

FLN and regret the loss of life? The fln, as a reminder, is a militant group linked to the political opposition parties that Paul supported.

Ryan Fahey (7:15)

Paul, you know, has headed political organizations in Rwanda. He's done it from afar. And like anyone, you don't always have total control over every member of your party. If you're the leader of that party, we know that very clearly. Paul could easily apologize and seek a pardon for, you know, regretting the lack of control over some of the key political stakeholders.

Narrator/Host (7:45)

So that was one point. But Fahey knew from his conversations with

Narrator/Host (7:48)

the Rwandans that the letter would need something else.

Narrator/Host (7:51)

A pledge by Paul to stop engaging

Narrator/Host (7:53)

in political activity that undermined the regime, to stop criticizing Kagame.

Ryan Fahey (7:58)

That's a key element that took a long time to sort out, because somebody who has devoted their life now to, in Paul's case, to being an advocate for, for the people. His entire identity is about truth and reconciliation, about democracy and human rights in Rwanda. To agree in a letter to silence himself and focus on his family is a very difficult thing to do.

Narrator/Host (8:31)

As you can imagine, Paul's lawyers braced

Narrator/Host (8:34)

for pushback from their client. Paul had spent a lifetime standing his ground against powerful forces, including armed men during the genocide and Kagame more recently.

Narrator/Host (8:44)

But in prison, he had become increasingly

Narrator/Host (8:46)

worn down and worried about what the government might do next.

Paul Rusasabagina (8:50)

You see, that time I was in hell and I expected to be killed anytime anyhow. So I was very cautious. I needed to get out. What can you do once you are brought such a document? Then you are supposed to Be free. I signed it.

Ryan Fahey (9:13)

Of course, Paul was tired, strong but tired, and he wanted to be with his family. And so, ultimately, Paul signed it.

Narrator/Host (9:28)

I am ready to humbly request a

Narrator/Host (9:30)

pardon, paul said in the letter, referring to Kagame as your Excellency.

Narrator/Host (9:35)

He said he regretted not taking more

Narrator/Host (9:37)

care to ensure his political coalition fully adhered to the principles of nonviolence.

Narrator/Host (9:43)

If I am granted a pardon and

Narrator/Host (9:45)

released, I understand fully that I will spend the remainder of my days in the United States in quiet reflection. I can assure you I have no personal or political ambitions. Otherwise, he wrote.

Narrator/Host (9:57)

Toward the end, Paul wrote, I will

Narrator/Host (10:00)

leave questions regarding Rwandan politics behind me.

Narrator/Host (10:04)

In November 2022, the Rwandan government allowed

Narrator/Host (10:07)

Ryan Fahey to visit Kigali. He met with Rwandan Justice Ministry officials and then visited Paul in prison. Fahey thought he was getting good signals.

Ryan Fahey (10:18)

One of the ministry officials said something to me that stuck with me. You know, look, Ryan, you know, I understand you're a former prosecutor and you have different concepts of criminal justice, but it's part of our culture. We endured the most unbelievable violence that any people has ever faced in the context of the genocide. We have pardoned people who are convicted of engaging in that genocide. If we have the strength and courage and the ability to forgive that type of conduct, I think we have the capacity to do the same here.

Narrator/Host (10:57)

But then after that, things kind of went quiet. Paul's family had toned down the rhetoric,

Narrator/Host (11:03)

hoping it would help push the deal forward.

Narrator/Host (11:06)

But a month passed, and then another

Narrator/Host (11:08)

month with no decision from the Rwandan side.

Ryan Fahey (11:11)

And at some point during this very quiet time frame, where for sure, the family and their broader support group is talking to me and asking and wondering, as anybody would, whether we're being tricked into being quiet, into being silenced to avoid the criticism, whether we're being played. In other words, we were reassured at least that there were close and continuing contacts, that the U.S. government was going to quietly set a timeline, ratchet up pressure, seek to understand it.

Narrator/Host (11:46)

On March 13, Kagame gave another interview to Semaphore.

Narrator/Host (11:51)

Now his tone was different. The interviewer is Steve Clemens, editor at large at the online publication.

Interviewer (11:57)

When you and I talked about that before, you made a very strong statement that you would not be bullied. Has anything changed since we spoke in December?

Paul Kagame (12:06)

I can only say we are not people who want to get stuck in one place and not make any movement forward for whatever reason. As you know, even our history, we came to a point where we forgave the unforgivable. There is a discussion that is looking at all possible ways of resolving that issue without compromising the most fundamental aspects of that case. And I think there's always going to be a way forward.

Ryan Fahey (12:39)

That was an amazing moment to publicly say, we're working on this and we think it might be able to be resolved.

Anais Rusasabagina (12:47)

It finally made me feel safe and secure that my trust in the US Government was actually leading towards something.

Narrator/Host (12:56)

This is Paul's daughter, Anais.

Anais Rusasabagina (12:58)

Hearing Kagame saying that he also wants to fund a resolution was a very big telling point that allowed us to, you know, start thinking of this future that's possible.

Narrator/Host (13:08)

The pardon letter had accomplished something critical. It gave the Rwandan government a story

Narrator/Host (13:13)

to tell about why it was willing to reverse its approach to Paul Rusasabagina. This is Rwandan government spokesperson Yolanda Makolo.

Yolanda Makolo (13:22)

So for us, it was very important that there was consensus that serious crimes were committed by him. He actually accepted more responsibility for the crimes that were committed and ask for a pardon. This is possible within our laws. You can get a presidential pardon given the right conditions.

Narrator/Host (13:42)

More after the break.

Narrator/Host (13:56)

Once the decision was made to release

Narrator/Host (13:58)

Paul, things moved quickly.

Narrator/Host (14:00)

Up to that point, it was Paul's

Narrator/Host (14:02)

lawyers and family members who were spearheading the effort. Now the big guns of Washington took over, including Jake Sullivan, national Security Advisor to Joe Biden. Here's Anais.

Anais Rusasabagina (14:14)

I was with member of the National Security Council at the White House who were helping my father and who were also helping other families around for detained detainees. And they, they informed me that they believed that there could be a deal happening very soon. And I had to be very, very careful with what I could communicate.

Narrator/Host (14:33)

Anais conveyed the news to family members and lawyers and no one else. But days went by, and still nothing. By Friday, March 24, Karine said, the doubt started to creep in.

Karine Rusasabagina (14:46)

We had so many instances where we thought dad was coming home, and then again, nothing happens. And so it was this constant giving of hope and taking back hope and giving hope and taking back hope.

Narrator/Host (14:59)

In Rwanda, Paul had doubts as well.

Narrator/Host (15:02)

He had heard from family members that

Narrator/Host (15:03)

the wheels were in motion. But in prison, the hours ticked away.

Paul Rusasabagina (15:08)

They took me back to my room where I just waited for the prison to tell me that I am free or not. It was three, four, nothing. Five, nothing. Six, nothing happened. Seven, nothing happened. And then at around eight, or a few minutes past eight, that is when I heard the padlock hitting the door, the metal door, which is very heavy. So then you hear it wherever you are. So when I heard it, I said, ah, what is the this. Immediately the director came to me where I was seated on my small bed and told me that, you get out. Said, I get out? Yes, you get out. Get out and go where you are free. You get out.

Narrator/Host (16:10)

These were the words Paul had been

Narrator/Host (16:12)

waiting to hear for almost three years.

Narrator/Host (16:15)

Yet now the news seemed too good to be true.

Narrator/Host (16:19)

Literally, like maybe this was a trap.

Paul Rusasabagina (16:23)

There was no good reason to trust people who had kidnapped me, who had tortured me, and now I just once again sit down and tell them, oh, you are good guys. I trust you. I told him that, sir, in our tradition, this is a family tradition, from my great grandfather to my grandfather, my father, and myself, whenever a man is home, that man does not go out in the night. Once the door is locked, it is locked. That man does not get out in the night. If I'm supposed to be free, then it will be tomorrow. He said, you get out. I said, you understood what I said? I'm not breaking my family traditions. Then he called the High Commissioner of the prisons. Then he told him that that guy has refused to get out. He then passed the phone to me. The high commissioner told me that you are getting out. You are free. You cannot spend a night in the prison. There are even diplomats who are waiting for you here. I said, please thank them on my behalf and tell them that I will meet them tomorrow.

Narrator/Host (17:46)

So you had been in prison nearly

Paul Rusasabagina (17:48)

three years, two years and seven months.

Narrator/Host (17:51)

You were told that you were getting

Narrator/Host (17:52)

out, and you said, I want to wait another night.

Paul Rusasabagina (17:55)

But how do you trust somebody who kidnapped you and he's coming to free you in the night? Is that normal?

Narrator/Host (18:03)

Paul was stalling for time. He was worried that Rwandan officials might

Narrator/Host (18:07)

take him outside somewhere and kill him in the dark.

Narrator/Host (18:10)

With no witnesses to prison officials, it must have been an odd scene. They had been keeping Paul locked up

Narrator/Host (18:18)

against his will for years. Now they couldn't persuade him to leave.

Narrator/Host (18:24)

One of them picked up the phone

Narrator/Host (18:25)

and called a US Diplomat at the embassy in Kigali.

Paul Rusasabagina (18:28)

Then she passed over the phone to the guy from the consulate who was coming visiting me every month. And he was very happy, very cheerful, and told me, now we have come to free you. I said, okay, now I can break the family rules and get out. That is how. Then I decided to get out and then started packing my stuff.

Ryan Fahey (19:01)

And the next thing you know, he gathered his stuff, and we receive a picture, a text of him exiting the prison and in a car on that long journey, as we know, back to Kigali and, you know, as near to Freedom as he's seen after this two year nightmare.

Narrator/Host (19:27)

The news that Paul was finally being released reached Paul's family members in different places around the world. Karine was on a plane when she saw a message in the family WhatsApp group.

Karine Rusasabagina (19:38)

I was just remember trying to get out of the plane and of course everyone was going super slow and you know, people taking things out of the overhead bins of the plane. And I felt like those three, we were just doing it super slowly on purpose because all I wanted to do was sprint out of the plane and just call, and just call everyone, but also scream of joy. And finally I got out of the plane and went to get my suitcase and I had tears all over my eyes. And these guys from the airport come and ask me like, ma', am, are you okay? And I was like, yes, I'm okay. Everything is fine. My dad is coming home. And did not understand what I was talking about, but I was just so joyful and full of tears and I just. It was this moment of pure bliss.

Narrator/Host (20:22)

Paul Suntracer was in San Antonio, Texas.

Tresor Rusasabagina (20:25)

I was at Home Depot. I got out of the car, started yelling. People thought I was a lunatic. I think some people probably wanted to call the police. You know, dad gets out of jail, his son gets in jail. Who knows what would have happened? It would have been bad for the family, but hey, I'll take it.

Narrator/Host (20:40)

And Tatiana was at home.

Tatiana Rusasabagina (20:42)

I was very happy, excited. I did not know how he would look like. We were very happy.

Narrator/Host (20:56)

For Kagame, the choreography of Paul's release

Narrator/Host (20:59)

mattered quite a lot.

Narrator/Host (21:00)

He wanted it to take place under

Narrator/Host (21:02)

darkness, hence the Friday evening ordeal.

Narrator/Host (21:06)

And he didn't want Paul to fly

Narrator/Host (21:07)

directly to the United States, possibly to avoid the perception that Washington forced him into it.

Narrator/Host (21:14)

And this is where Qatar became involved. A neutral third party country in the

Narrator/Host (21:18)

Middle east that offered to help with the logistics.

Narrator/Host (21:22)

Paul would fly from Kigali to Doha,

Narrator/Host (21:24)

the capital of Qatar.

Narrator/Host (21:26)

From a distance, Paul's family members and

Narrator/Host (21:29)

friends were following his every step.

Kathleen Tobin Krueger (21:31)

Someone helped me download an app on my phone where ultimately I could trace Paul's plane.

Narrator/Host (21:37)

This is Kathleen Tobin Krueger, a friend

Narrator/Host (21:39)

of the family who also lives in Texas. Kathleen's late husband was Texas Senator Bob Krueger, who served at one point as US Ambassador to Burundi.

Kathleen Tobin Krueger (21:49)

The second he was out of Rwandan airspace. Was a celebration, a time of celebration.

Narrator/Host (21:54)

Were you watching the Flight Tracker app as it left Rwandan airspace?

Kathleen Tobin Krueger (21:58)

Yes, I was sitting in my living room in New Braunfels, Texas with the app on my Phone and watching the radar as the plane was. You know, it's kind of what like a little black or red figure. I forget on your phone screen moving across and I'm sort of, I guess I would zoom in and try to see where the borders were or just watching it cross and go and go and keep going. And once out of Rwandan airspace, I was, I know we all were very relieved.

Narrator/Host (22:30)

So you were celebrating the second you saw cross on your phone?

Kathleen Tobin Krueger (22:34)

Yes. God, it was a miracle.

Narrator/Host (22:36)

For Paul, the transitions over the past

Narrator/Host (22:38)

48 hours had been dramatic. From prison to the plane and now to Doha. Fahey had flown to Qatar to greet his client. Now they shared a meal.

Paul Rusasabagina (22:49)

I was happy to have to have some fish. I have never had a fish for years. I never tasted a glass of wine.

Ryan Fahey (23:02)

Getting bottles of wine to deliver to your room during Ramadan was not cheap. And so they had fine, good wine that exceeded the room rate. And we had that delivered. And I remember that we did that for two nights. Paul loves wine and I do as well. And so we got him his first glass of wine the first night and a couple more glasses the second.

Narrator/Host (23:28)

When Americans are detained unlawfully abroad, or

Narrator/Host (23:31)

in this case, a US permanent resident,

Narrator/Host (23:34)

there's a routine to their reintegration.

Narrator/Host (23:37)

They don't go straight home. Instead they're taken to a medical facility for tests.

Narrator/Host (23:43)

In Paul's case, it was a military

Narrator/Host (23:45)

hospital in San Antonio.

Narrator/Host (23:48)

That facility would be the place where

Narrator/Host (23:51)

he would finally reunite with his family. This is Karine.

Karine Rusasabagina (23:57)

We just waited for him to walk in and then he slowly arrived, walking very slowly. We felt like he looked a bit sick and tired. And as soon as he got got into the room, he just opened up his arms and first he gave a big hug to my mom. And we all gave them that moment allow him to hug her and her to hug him. And then I think less than half a second later, we were just all run into his arms and just did this massive group hug. And we were all crying and he was comforting us. And then he took his time and just hugged every member of the family and exchanged a few words with everyone and hugging him and touching his face to make sure it's him. And we just took in every second of that.

Tatiana Rusasabagina (24:51)

Everybody cried, people who were there and everyone wanted to hug him. When I have a chance to hold him in my arm, I. I didn't want to let him go.

Paul Rusasabagina (25:09)

Everybody was there, family and friends. Everybody was in tears.

Narrator/Host (25:17)

For Kate Gibson, the lawyer who had

Narrator/Host (25:19)

spent almost three years working on Paul's case.

Narrator/Host (25:23)

It was the first face to face

Narrator/Host (25:24)

encounter with her client.

Karine Rusasabagina (25:26)

Tassiana said, paul, this is Kate, this is her.

Kathleen Tobin Krueger (25:31)

And he said, you did it, you won.

Tresor Rusasabagina (25:37)

And

Karine Rusasabagina (25:39)

it was really overwhelming.

Narrator/Host (25:44)

When Paul got home from the hospital, the family held a feast. This is Anais.

Anais Rusasabagina (25:51)

So in my father's family back in his village, would roast a big goat or a big cow and essentially feed his family and all the neighbor. And so this tradition in our family is, you know, when somebody has been away and we all get together, if you don't have a cow to slaughter, you know, but we do it the American way and we have a nice barbecue and we really get together on the table and just share stories. It's really the principle of us having something to share and to discuss.

Narrator/Host (26:27)

What was it like getting home for the first time back in your own house? Was it surreal?

Paul Rusasabagina (26:32)

Well, it was just more or less like 1994. After going through what I went through, after three months when I just was looking at myself and trying to touch myself and saying, am I really that one? I used to be? Am I really the right person? Or I am dead and still somebody else who is playing that role.

Narrator/Host (27:05)

That's basically where Paul's ordeal ends.

Narrator/Host (27:07)

At home in San Antonio with his family and friends around.

Narrator/Host (27:12)

But it's not quite the end of the story. Paul spent the first few months of

Narrator/Host (27:16)

his homecoming focused on himself and his family.

Narrator/Host (27:19)

He didn't talk much to the press and basically kept to the terms of

Narrator/Host (27:24)

the pardon letter he signed.

Narrator/Host (27:26)

In fact, when I visited his home

Narrator/Host (27:28)

in San Antonio a few months ago, it was only to speak with Tatiana and Tresor. Paul was there, but he wouldn't be interviewed. At one point, as I was doing

Narrator/Host (27:37)

my interviews, he came over and hovered a bit.

Narrator/Host (27:41)

Sorry to interrupt, but Paul, you're welcome

Narrator/Host (27:43)

to sit with us if you want.

Narrator/Host (27:44)

You don't have to be a stranger.

Paul Rusasabagina (27:46)

Okay. Don't worry, I'll be reading something there.

Narrator/Host (27:49)

Okay.

Paul Rusasabagina (27:50)

Yeah.

Narrator/Host (27:51)

All right.

Narrator/Host (27:51)

Sounds good.

Paul Rusasabagina (27:52)

Okay.

John Tomashevsky (JT) (27:54)

All right.

Narrator/Host (27:55)

Pretend like he's not here. Tell us about, tell us about.

Narrator/Host (27:58)

At another point, he interrupted our interview by brewing a pot of coffee.

Narrator/Host (28:02)

And occasionally he chimed in off mic

Narrator/Host (28:05)

to help Tatiana recall a detail. Like the date when the two found Anais and Karine in the refugee camp.

Tatiana Rusasabagina (28:11)

June. In June.

Paul Rusasabagina (28:13)

June 19th.

Tatiana Rusasabagina (28:15)

Yeah. Kabul GA camp. There we find Anais and Karine there.

Narrator/Host (28:20)

All that changed in April of this year as the world marked 30 years to the start of the Rwandan genocide. Once again, Paul was speaking out and he was ready to sit down with me. This document you signed says, don't speak out again. Why are you speaking out again? And do you worry that you could once again become the target of the Rwandan government?

Paul Rusasabagina (28:43)

Do you know why? It is because the prisoners, they told me that. Listen, mister, you have been our speaker. You have talked for us. You have seen how we are suffering in this prison. Please once again tell the world about what is going on here in this prison. So that is my mission, given by prisoners.

Narrator/Host (29:14)

Do you believe that you could still be targeted in any form by the Rwandan government now that you're released, or do you think that is all behind you?

Paul Rusasabagina (29:22)

Definitely. Definitely. I know that the Rwandan government is now very angry, is now very bitter, and they can, if they can, kill me anytime, whenever they have an opportunity, as they have killed many others, they can even assassinate me openly daytime.

Narrator/Host (29:44)

So you think that you might be

Narrator/Host (29:45)

the target of assassination?

Paul Rusasabagina (29:46)

Yes, I know one day I will die. When is it? I do not know. Who is supposed to do it? I do not know. When is it supposed to happen? I do not know. But I believe that I will never die before the time determined by God the Almighty.

Karine Rusasabagina (30:05)

You know, he kept telling us, I survived this genocide so that I can tell the story, so that I can tell the world what happened and so that it never happens again.

Narrator/Host (30:15)

This is Karine.

Karine Rusasabagina (30:16)

He survived an international kidnapping, torture, and wrongful detention. And he's out now, and he has another chance to life. And now he will tell the story so that it doesn't happen to other people, so that we can stop the government that is hurting all these innocent people from doing it to others as well. And I think that's his. His mission, and I think that's what he believes is in telling the story so that we can put an end to these human rights abuses.

Narrator/Host (30:43)

That pledge by Paul to continue speaking out against Kagame could well violate the

Narrator/Host (30:48)

agreement he signed with the Rwandan government.

Narrator/Host (30:51)

And it might, just might, trigger another ordeal for him. In Act 3, in the long life

Narrator/Host (30:58)

of Paul Rusesa Begina, this is the Rwandan government spokesperson, Yolanda Makola.

Yolanda Makolo (31:04)

He can speak whenever he wants. It's just about getting involved again in the. In the lies and the propaganda, and especially getting involved again in colluding with a armed militia in that criminal activity. That's what we're interested in. And if he does, then the conviction stands, and he's liable to rearrest.

Narrator/Host (31:26)

I mean, if. If he's liable for rearrest, is he also at risk of being tricked again into coming back to Rwanda in any way.

Yolanda Makolo (31:35)

That's a. That's a bridge we'll cross when we come to it, isn't it?

Tresor Rusasabagina (31:39)

He's never gonna stop, so. And we're his children, and we're never gonna stop, you know.

Narrator/Host (31:44)

This is Paul's son, Traysor.

Tresor Rusasabagina (31:46)

As long as you have a microphone, you know, and as long as someone's gonna listen, as long as someone's gonna want to hear the story and want to help, then we're gonna tell it.

Narrator/Host (32:18)

You've been listening to After Hotel Rwanda, a four part series from Foreign Policy. Our series was produced by Rob Sacks and edited by Dan Effronter. Foreign Policy's podcast team includes Laura Rosbrough Telum, Rosie Julin and Claudia Tate. Special thanks to others at Foreign Policy who provided help with the show, including Shannon Schweitzer, Lori Kelly and Brooks Robinson. To learn more about Paul's case, check out my article in Foreign Policy. Funding for the show is made possible in part by readers of Foreign Policy magazine. If you'd like to subscribe, you can get a discount by entering the code ISPy. That's the letter I and the word spy. I'm Robbie Grammer.

Interviewer (33:02)

Thanks for listening.